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Effective listening is a vital but often underrated skill for leadership. In this episode, John Crawford joins the podcast to explain how listening can combat the loneliness epidemic, help resolve conflicts, and ultimately make you a better leader. He also shares some stories of how listening transformed his relationships as a pastor, as a salon owner, and in his personal life. Tune in for practical insights and tactics you can use to improve your listening today!
Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Episode Recap:
- People don’t feel listened to, and that leads to loneliness
- How has listening transformed your approach to both hair styling and ministry?
- How do we listen well in a world so full of noise?
- What role does listening play in conflict resolution?
- How can we practice listening while still being assertive?
- What would you say to leaders who feel lonely?
- What does it mean to lead through listening?
- What blocks people from listening well?
- Try these tactics to start asking better questions
- How does listening well benefit leaders?
- What’s the relationship between listening and control?
- What’s one step listeners can take today?
If you’re ready to move beyond just gathering information and start executing on what truly matters, Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching can help. Apply now at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
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Back in 2018, I was cutting hair that's what I did for a living and I was cutting hair at the salon. One of my longtime clients came in for a haircut, and, she sat down in my chair, and I started combing through her hair and said, hey, what what are we doing with your hair today? And I'll never forget what she said. She said, John, I don't need a haircut. I just need someone to listen to me.
John Crawford:And I remember when she said that, it, like, stopped me dead in my tracks. For one, I'd never heard that before, and I I remember feeling, like, a real deep sadness of like she was gonna come in to see me for a haircut, have me give her a haircut that she didn't really need, but she was gonna pay me just so she would have somebody to listen to her. And I remember from that moment on, was like, hey, there's something here. Like, there's something about listening that is not only really powerful, but it feels like it's really needed right now in our society. And this was back before COVID broke out, but a lot of the, studies that were done back in 2019 before COVID and the pandemic had diagnosed America as being in an epidemic of loneliness.
John Crawford:Yep. And people were lonelier in 2019 than they ever had been in the history of our country. And for the first time, young people, Gen z at the time, were lonelier than the elderly. And I just remember hearing that at the salon, then I started to hear more and more instances. And then in 2019, there's this study that says we're in an epidemic of loneliness.
John Crawford:And then I was still cutting hair at the salon, and so I'm hearing this more and more. And I even remember one of my clients shortly after came in, different client, and said, we're talking, I'm cutting hair, and my client said, hey, you know what? I pay a therapist $150 an hour because no one will listen to me, not even my spouse. And I just, there there kept being, like, this recurring theme of people don't have anyone to listen to them. Mhmm.
John Crawford:And when people feel heard and when people feel like you are listening, they they feel loved. You know, like people feel loved, they feel known, and all that. And so that was the the first moment was back in 2018. Was like, man, there's something really powerful about listening. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:So how how are you approaching your interactions at the salon before? Like, what was your mindset with because you're obviously probably still having conversations with them. Right?
John Crawford:Yeah. Yeah. I think my mindset before, I cut hair for years before this. And it was like, Hey, the only reason why someone's coming into the salon is to get a haircut. Yep.
John Crawford:And you kind of provide a little bit of chitchat to make the time go by, you know? So it's like, yeah, you don't want to have an awkward, like silent period while you're giving a haircut, but the baseline assumption for me was someone's going to come in and give me business and pay me to give them the service of cutting their actual hair. And, the approach then shifted of, Hey, there's actually another service that I'm offering that is very valuable to people. And when my client voiced that of like, hey, I'm just coming in because I need you to listen to me. I was like, man, there's there's something here.
John Crawford:And it it actually made me view my work at the salon differently. Sure. And I started to view it, you know, and there's the age old, like, the salon's the place where gossip happens because people tell their hairdresser or, like, my hairdresser is my therapist. I tell them everything. So there's always, like, a a understanding that people talk to their barber or hairdresser, but I it still never hit me on the importance and the value and the need that so many people, unlike me, because I didn't feel this way at the time, so many people feel I don't have anybody in my life to listen to me, and that's like, it's a tragic thing.
John Crawford:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:So from, like, a leadership perspective, because you you worked at a salon, and then I think you owned did you own a salon? Yeah. And then you also were bi vocational and then went into full time ministry.
John Crawford:So Yeah. Crazy story. Right?
Ben Loy:Yeah. Mean, insane. Right? So how, like, how have you seen or how has that that tool for listening been applied in the one on one sense with with your, your clients at the hair salon versus as you kind of grew in maybe influence and just the amount of people you're interacting with in ministry. Yeah.
Ben Loy:Is there a is there a difference in the way you were applying it or is it like a principle that you say would just, carry across
John Crawford:the You know what? It has been something that I've learned about and have actively tried to grow in. And I would say be because of that, I would say it's just applied across the board. I think what I have come to realize is why listening is so powerful is because every single person has a story Mhmm. And every person longs to be known.
John Crawford:And so what listening provides is it provides a space for people's stories to actually be understood and listened to, and all of our stories are are very different and have shaped us. And so by me listening to you, I'm actually hearing a bit of, Hey, here's the things that have happened in Ben's life and this is how you've come to think or act or believe or whatever it is in the way that you have. And in my action of actively trying to listen to you, you feel known. Mhmm. And so I think it's been it's carried across in the leadership because when you're able to listen, you can better understand people, you're able to actually feel a sense of empathy and compassion instead of believing the worst about someone Mhmm.
John Crawford:Because that's what we typically do is when we're given the least amount of information, people will automatically always connect the dots in the most pathological ways possible, which means we're prone to believing the worst. Yep. And when you ask questions and listen, all of a sudden now you fill in the gaps and I don't have the least amount of information, now I actually have the appropriate amount of information and so I can better understand the people that I'm leading, the people that I'm pastoring, and I feel a sense of deep empathy and even compassion for people to help them. And so it's been it's been really helpful. And so I would say it just carried over but it's it's looked differently, I think, from the salon to, a church setting.
Ben Loy:Yeah. How how does that fit into because I I I feel like one of the things you're speaking into is, like, trust even in a relationship. Like, your listening establishes trust.
John Crawford:Totally.
Ben Loy:How does that fit into the way that we interact today in our own culture and, yeah, just just some of the unique dynamics of
John Crawford:Oh, man.
Ben Loy:Social media, you know, everything's digital. Versus yeah. Like, how do you listen in a in a world that is so noise heavy? Man, the the world we
John Crawford:live in is we're surrounded by noise all the time where everyone is talking but very few people are listening. And everybody's got opinions, everybody's posting stuff, everybody's commenting, everybody is putting out content, you know, and so there's there's not a shortage of people talking, there's a shortage of people listening. And so I think you're you're exactly right on the trust piece. When you listen to someone because they feel known, because they feel heard, which is what they're longing for, you will grow their trust. And, I forget who said it, it's another one of those things where it's like, I don't know who said it, who gets the credit, but it's the age old people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
John Crawford:Yep. And when you listen to someone, it shows that you genuinely are interested in them and that you're not just talking at them or you're not just gonna assume things about them, you're seeking to understand, hey, help me understand fill in the blank. Mhmm. You know, tell me what that's like for you. Tell me about your family or where you grew up.
John Crawford:There's just a genuine interest and what that does is it grows people's trust and they view you as, hey, you genuinely care about me. And so there's a lot of ways that you can cultivate listening and growing. I think though that the big thing is just to name the fact that we are in a listening deficit in our, like, society. Yeah. We listen to content and we listen to, like, you know, content creators and influencers and things like that.
John Crawford:But when it comes to just people, there's a whole lot of talking and there's not an actual, like, embodied listening with people, and it's really powerful.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Do you have any examples of whether it's as a pastor or at the salon, like, that really as you began to practice it, like, really showed how valuable it was?
John Crawford:I think a huge one actually, is a great one because this was where I I saw the power of listening for peacemaking and conflict resolution. Back in 2020, obviously tensions were heightened. The world was there was a lot of uncertainty and a lot of conflict, a lot of division, a lot of polarization and all of that. So it actually happened within our our church community that, something was said in a, in a communication from one of our pastors. And based on what was said, it was, addressing some of the current political tension in 2020 because everything was heightened around race and justice and COVID and masking and vaccinations.
John Crawford:Like, everything was just like If
Ben Loy:you if you wanted a reason to be upset, there was one you could find for sure.
John Crawford:Yeah. You know, like, people are gonna get upset. And so he he did not make any kind of statement or a position, but he he addressed something pertaining to the political division. And it had to do with, race, like the race injustice conversation. Well, a guy in our congregation got really angry, really angry.
John Crawford:He was a member at our church, a leader, and he emailed me. I wasn't the one that said it. It was one of our other leaders. He emailed me and said, hey, I can't believe that this was said. I am so upset by this that I'm leaving the church.
John Crawford:I'm no longer gonna be a member here, and I'm leaving. And I was like, woah. Woah. Woah. You know, I've I've met with this guy a lot, and and he was a leader, and so it was just like, woah.
John Crawford:You know, I think there's a misunderstanding here. He had explained what he thought he heard and so in my response to him, I was like, hey, thanks so much for emailing me. I'm so sorry to hear this. Hey, can we get together? Would you meet with me?
John Crawford:And he emailed back and he agreed to it. So we met. And it was I knew going in, this guy's already upset. So there's already a degree of conflict happening. And I don't really know how he's gonna show up to the meeting, if I'm gonna get yelled at, you know, if he's gonna fly off the handle or what.
John Crawford:And so I just, you know, prayed and felt like the right thing to do was I'm just gonna ask him a lot of questions, and I'm just gonna take the posture of listening. And it was so interesting. We met in person and we were socially distanced because this is, like, peak of the pandemic, So we were socially distanced. He's sitting 20 feet away from me, you know? But I remember just asking him a series of questions and I didn't seek to defend myself.
John Crawford:Was generally I was trying to understand, like, hey, what about this was so upsetting? Like, help me understand linked it back to, like, his story. Man, I will never forget. This is another one of those where I was, like, convinced about the power of listening. This guy came in just, like, visibly angry, you know, tense, like, body posture, nonverbal nonverbal communication.
John Crawford:It's like, this guy, like, wants to throw down, you know? And he was so upset and, man, I just start asking just some questions and he starts he starts talking and it just, like, his posture within five minutes, dude, changes. No longer crossed arms, like, visibly relaxes. He starts leaning back because he was, like, real rigid, you know? And his whole posture changed.
John Crawford:And we then end up meeting for about an hour and a half, and I just keep asking him questions. He starts telling me a story of back when he was in college, and this guy's an older guy. Back when he was in college, well, the very thing that he was upset about, a comment about the political division. Well, something had happened in his life at college pertaining to the topic of race and politics. I had no idea.
John Crawford:Just by listening to him and I because I was asking him, was like, hey. What what about this was so upsetting? It seems like this is really upsetting. And then he starts to go into his whole story and we're talking, like, thirty years ago. And so then I just asked him, I said, hey.
John Crawford:Do you it sounds like this was this was, like, deeply impactful in your life. Do you think, like, maybe this is connected to why you're feeling so upset? And, man, he hadn't made that connection. And in the meeting Wow. He makes the connection.
John Crawford:And he's like, yeah. You wanna know it? And so then I walked back after I listened to him for about an hour. I walked back and said, hey. This is what was said.
John Crawford:Like, it seems like you thought you heard this.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
John Crawford:But, like, can we go back and, like, listen to it? You know? And and then it was like, oh, it was clearly not. This guy ended up not only changing his whole posture, he ended up apologizing. Wow.
John Crawford:And then he was so mad that he ended up apologizing to the leader who he was so upset who said this. Mhmm. And he ended up apologizing to the leader, and he stayed at the church. He didn't leave the church. And you just go, man, I like I didn't I didn't argue him.
John Crawford:I didn't try to convince him otherwise. I just asked him a bunch of questions, and then he made this connection of, like, thirty years ago, something that happened in college that he had deep pain and baggage for Yep. Was connected to this. And this actually wasn't about what the leader at the church said, it was actually about all of this stuff in the past. Yeah.
John Crawford:And there was conflict resolution. Yeah. Like, it led to high man, really high tension, and just listening was a means of peacemaking. Yeah. And and so that that's like one that I think of of like, man, was just so powerful because you could visibly see him just like relax.
John Crawford:Yeah. I was like, oh, I thought, you know, because I'm sure he was thinking I was gonna go at him and like, hey, you're wrong, you're right, you know. Yeah. Because that's what happened to him in college.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
John Crawford:And then you just go, no, I'm just like, man, I care about you and I wanna hear, you know? Yeah. Just totally changed.
Ben Loy:How do you balance because I actually, I think the church is a really interesting study on this because the pulpit is a stage where it is it leans heavily on the assertive side. Right? Pastor's not getting up and, like, asking questions from the congregation in the moment. So, like, they're preaching, they're proclaiming the word of God, they're being assertive in in what they're saying. Yeah.
Ben Loy:And then, like, balancing that with with the act of listening and the practice of listening. Like, in this conversation, it sounds like Yeah. You you did. You navigated both both listening and assertiveness. Can can you speak into that a little bit?
John Crawford:Dude, that's a great question. I think for me, and different people who go about this differently, for me, I think what I have, what I have learned to be most beneficial in in my context is to lead with listening. And then when there's an opportunity to maybe be assertive or to say what needs to be said, to do it. Mhmm. But you are coming once again, it's the whole, people don't care how much you know till they know how much you care.
Ben Loy:Yep.
John Crawford:And then if it's like, hey, you feel cared for. I listened. I came in with a genuine posture. Not not an agenda just to, like, bait and switch you, but a genuine posture of, like, hey, I care about you.
Ben Loy:Yeah.
John Crawford:And you've got a story, and help me understand. And then there usually is always an opportunity to say what needs to be said. Mhmm. But you're doing it out of a out of a place of being well informed of instead of just saying the thing from listening, man, I feel empathy for this person. Like, your story is not my story.
Ben Loy:Yep.
John Crawford:And I could actually see like, I don't I don't see it how you see it, but I can understand how you got there.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
John Crawford:You know? And so I think for me, I have I have learned to lead with listening and ask a lot of questions to then also help me better formulate how I'm gonna communicate something that might need to be communicated. Yeah. Because there are. Like, you you can't just always only listen to people.
John Crawford:Right. You need to Yep. You know, especially in leadership. You know, there's things that need to be said. People need to be challenged.
John Crawford:You don't just accept every crazy thing that's ever said. It's like, oh, yeah. That's totally fine. Like, sometimes you need to correct people out of love
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
John Crawford:Or just say, hey, this is this is the thing that needs to be said, and this is just what you need to know, and so that there is there is a, how you navigate that, and I think it would be different in different contexts Right. Of, I'm a pastor, you know, and and it may be different in the marketplace if you're leading a company or something like that, but I do feel like the thing that isn't different is listening is so powerful. Yeah. You know? And people will feel loved by you and cared for by you and known, and therefore they are in a better posture and position themselves to receive whatever you have to say.
John Crawford:Sure.
Ben Loy:I would argue in the marketplace, I'd see I'd say it's more similar than it is different, right, even from a pastoral to the marketplace. I mean, regardless, like, you're a leader, you're interacting with people, people with backgrounds, histories, experience, traumas, stresses in their own lives. And and, like, listening gives you the ability to step into their shoes, understand as much as you can what's going on in the background. So, yeah, I would say there's there's more similarities than there are
John Crawford:Yeah. Differences. It makes sense. It makes a lot of sense that there would be. Yeah.
John Crawford:Yeah.
Ben Loy:What would you say to someone who maybe maybe they say, like, I wish I was surrounded by more listeners or, you know, maybe maybe they feel like they're always the one that's listening and they feel maybe, I don't know, burdened by that.
John Crawford:If you are a leader, you will necessarily take on the greater burden. But it's also important that you have someone to listen to you, and so I think, you know, you've gotta figure out who that is, close friends, people that care for you, other leaders that you feel relationally like you trust. But in leadership, I think that's part of the burden and the weight of leadership is you should be listening to the people you're leading more than they should be seeking you out to listen to you. Now, honestly, when when you are giving a directive, they have to listen to you. Right?
John Crawford:You know? Because, like, you're their boss or whatever. But as far as if you're wanting just someone to listen to you all the time, you're probably not gonna get that. Mhmm. But you need it for your own sake as being a healthy leader to be able to process things.
John Crawford:Like, leadership is lonely Yeah. And it's hard, and so you need healthy outlets. You know, for some, they they find that in therapy. For others, they find that in, like, covenant friendships where it's like people that really love you, trust you. For others it is like if you're a marketplace leader, it's your pastors, things like that, you need it though.
John Crawford:But I would just say that's part of the burden that you take on of the weight of leadership is saying, yeah, that should be actually a normal thing.
Ben Loy:Dive in a little bit more on to how do you lead through listening, where does that actually come into play?
John Crawford:I think you could you could throw out, like, a lot of scenarios. The biggest one would be, you know, leading through change is a really helpful one Mhmm. Of being able to listen to people and hear where they're at before making a decision is really helpful. Or if a decision had already been made because of the organization structure and the team that made the decision, then it's listening to people on how they might have concerns about a decision and how it's going affect them. So I think that that could be one.
John Crawford:A big one is we all know that conflict is a part of leadership. Conflict is not bad, but it's what you do conflict. Can be really bad or it can actually strengthen a team and relationship and it can be a source of growth. So listening is actually a means of, and I shared this with that story, but resolving conflict. And there's a lot of conflict on teams.
John Crawford:And so once again, I think it's when you listen, you are being well informed instead of believing the worst. And so I think it also provides then team camaraderie and cohesion because people feel known. And so I think there is a degree of how it affects the team where when people feel like, hey, Ben is a really good listener. I know if I have something going on in my life, he's going listen to me. I also know that I'm not just like a cog in the wheel, but he actually cares about me.
John Crawford:I have seen is listening is also when it comes to efficiency, it seems like listening is really inefficient. Yeah. It's actually, I would argue, the most efficient way to lead is with the ear because a lot of inefficiencies is from unknown, unmet expectations. And so by listening, you actually save yourself a lot of the downstream work. Yeah.
John Crawford:And so I actually think it's more efficient as well. Efficiency in organizations, right? Because sometimes in church, like the church world, it can be different and it's like, oh, yeah, of course, you're a pastor, you just listen to people all the time. But when it's, organizations and efficiency, the more efficient thing in listening and what oftentimes happens is you end up spending a lot of time on unmet or misaligned expectations, a lot of time on conflict, and it ends up being really, really inefficient. And so if you just do like the math, yeah, you know, it might take you a couple hours to listen to some people, but if you don't do that on the front end, the downstream, you might have twenty, thirty, forty hours of conflicts of whatever it may be that you're trying to sort out, and then I just think it's good for overall, retention.
John Crawford:Yeah. Like, people wanna work for a leader that they feel like actually is interested in their life, that has actually sought to understand them and their story and what they care about and what their hopes are and what their dreams are and what their fears are, you know, all of that. It's like, man, if this is, like, innate in every human being, like, we long to be known
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
John Crawford:And you work for a leader or an organization where, like, that's present, that's that's invaluable. You know? And so I also think it's, like, you know, it's a retention thing too. And so I think there's a lot of ways that it that it plays out. Yeah.
John Crawford:You know, those are some off the top of my head. Yeah. Obviously in like more counseling and care, you know, that that's a more natural one. That's why I didn't go there. But these are some where I would say in teams and organizations, like where it, I think is really beneficial.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I really like that you touched on efficiency because I think oftentimes, especially from a leadership perspective, the nature is to like put your head down and just push through and be having the wherewithal to stop, like lift your head up and ask questions to the people around you about where they're at. Like what are their hopes? What are their fears? Yeah.
Ben Loy:How do they see themselves fitting into the organization or the plan or project or agenda that you have? Yeah, you'd probably save yourself a lot of heartache. Yeah. How would you define effective listening?
John Crawford:One of the things that I would say is you've got, the difference between hearing and listening. So hearing is something that simply just happens. It's one of your five senses, right? Like, we are hearing each other right now or you're hearing a plane outside, but, listening is something different. Like, both of them use your ears, but listening is where you make the choice to try to actively understand what you've heard.
John Crawford:And so what I would say effective listening, if I were to define it, is where you are another way is I would just say it's actively listening. Right? And there's ways that you can actively listening actively listen to people. But I would say effective listening is where you are actively engaged and you are dialed into the person. You are not just hearing them where it goes.
John Crawford:You know, we've all had that, you know, like, yeah, I totally heard my teacher give the homework, but I did not listen and I don't know how to do it now, you know? Yep. And we all know that, that feeling where it's like, I totally heard, but I didn't listen. But I'm, like, not just hearing you, I'm listening with the intent to try to understand. And so when I would say effective listening is is that it's interpersonally and it's organizationally.
John Crawford:I don't think it's just always one on one, but I think it's where you actively trying to understand the people you're leading or even your customers. Right? There that there's a listening to now, did I just wanna, like, hear some feedback from our clients or did I really want to actively listen to say like, hey, I wanna understand this because we actually may wanna, like, implement some stuff. Effective listening, one of the things that I always say is, a good listening or effective listening to your question always starts with the question of how can I make this conversation about the other person? And so if you are going as a leader like, hey, this conversation isn't about me, but how can I make this conversation about you, Ben?
John Crawford:And so I am showing up with the intent to listen and to try to understand. And that's not with an agenda attached to it, but it's really just to say, hey, I'm not gonna make this conversation about me. It's actually about you and so I know going into it that I'm going to do more listening than speaking. Yeah. And so I think that effective listening is is just that.
John Crawford:Servant leadership. Servant leadership. Yeah. Yeah. In which, honestly, if you look at who is the the pinnacle of servant leadership that everybody looks at is Jesus.
John Crawford:Mhmm. Right? Like, that's where servant leadership comes from is his ministry. And Jesus asks over 300 questions in the gospels. And it's like, well, depending on who you believe Jesus is, you and I are Christians, and so we believe he's God.
John Crawford:And if Jesus is God, well, he already knows the answer. So why is he asking all these questions? Well, he's doing it out of a means of loving and caring for the people on the other side, that he's giving them the opportunity to be heard, to be known, to be loved. He doesn't need to ask them. He he already knows, you know, and there's examples of that in the gospels where Jesus already knows their story.
John Crawford:He know he knows your name before, you know, all of that, and yet he's doing something because listening is a means of love. And so I think, yeah, it's servant leadership. You know, like, this is this is an innate desire that every single person has. And so when you go, hey, I'm not gonna make this conversation about me, you're serving people. And you're leading out of out of a heart of a servant to care for the people you're leading.
Ben Loy:What would you say is the biggest, blocker for people in in, like, listening well?
John Crawford:One is we get distracted really easily. I think a part of actively listening and effective is to not be looking at your phone or, you know, you get a text and looking at every single text message. Yeah. And so one of the practices that that, I learned from someone was either put your phone away where it's not in view or you flip it over. If it's gotta be out, you know, emergency type thing, like flip it over so your screen you're not always getting the notifications, But you it's hard to be actively engaged and listening if you're checking text messages.
John Crawford:Somebody's talking to you and you're looking down at your phone, you know, looking at texts or responding to a text. Clearly, you're not actively listening to the person and texting someone, you know? So I think that that's like a really practical one. Another thing that makes it hard besides, distraction is a lot of times people don't know how to ask good questions. The worst kind of question you can ask someone is a why question.
John Crawford:So you may wonder why, right? The the reason for that is when you ask someone a why question, it immediately puts them on the defensive. So a lot of times, people don't really know how to ask good open ended questions. So it's just like, hey, did you like that? It's like, well, that's a closed ended question.
Ben Loy:It's a
John Crawford:yes or no. Yep. But how do you have good questions and how do you not just go, well, why do you think that way? You know, if you tell me that the tacos that we're gonna eat later are the best tacos, and I'm like a taco skeptic, and I'm like, well, well, why? Why would you say that?
John Crawford:You know, like, I think this place has the best tacos. You're automatically gonna go on the defensive. Mhmm. And you're gonna have to try to, like, prove your case of, like, these tacos are the best. Mhmm.
John Crawford:But if I just say, like, hey, what makes what makes you think that they're the best tacos? Yeah. Well, you're like, man, dude, it's, like, the salsa, you know, and you just start to then explain it instead of like, oh, I gotta defend myself. Yeah. Or, hey, how many how many other taco places have you been to in the city?
John Crawford:You know? And it's like, oh, well, two. Okay. So it's like the best of two. But if you're like, dude, I'm a taco connoisseur and I've been to 300 taco spots, This is the best out of 300.
John Crawford:Well, it's different than just like the why. Right. That's a trivial example, but if you start to go in like an organizational setting where there's like some complexities and maybe high emotion and you enter in with the why question of, like, well, why do you feel that? Why why are you offended? Mhmm.
John Crawford:You know, it's just like, dude, people you get the worst of people. Yeah. Because they feel like, oh, something's wrong with me Yep. And now I gotta defend myself.
Ben Loy:Yeah.
John Crawford:So I would say asking good questions is hard. A lot of times, people don't know what good questions are. They resort to, and we all do it, is a why question, but that's not actually a great question. It's something that I always love to do is, I have two or three, what I would say is, like, really good questions that I always have in, like, my back pocket or, like, up my sleeve. These are, my go tos.
John Crawford:So, you know, sometimes people, they're just gonna Mhmm. But if you're wondering, like, man, how can I really get maybe some depth and to get a deeper understanding? So, I'll give you two of mine. So you you can take these if you want. So one of my favorites is tell me about a time in your life when, fill in the blank.
John Crawford:Now you can go, like, fun with it, but you can go go deep. Yeah. You know? Tell me about a time in your life when you felt seen by your dad. It's like, dude, you're gonna get into some deep stuff.
John Crawford:Mhmm. All of a sudden, you realize, like, oh, this person didn't have a dad. Yep. You know? Or, hey, like, tell me about a time in your life that you went to a theme park and you, like, loved a ride.
John Crawford:You know? Like, you can go however, but, like, just tell me about a time in your life when, and you can fill in the blank for whatever you're curious about.
Ben Loy:Sure.
John Crawford:Dude, that one is like gold. It's so good. Yeah. That question, and then this is my favorite question to ask is, what has that been like for you? And that question seeks to generally understand someone else's story and lived experience, and that will that will make someone feel like, man, you're really trying to understand like, hey, I don't know what it was like to I'm born and raised in Arizona.
John Crawford:Like, I don't know what it was like to live in Canada. Like Mhmm. Tell me what that was like for you to, like or, hey, you have dual citizenship. Tell me what that was like. Or you go really deep into it or,
Ben Loy:like Yeah.
John Crawford:Hey, somebody, you know, they're talking about a previous employer experience and and something gnarly happened. And it's like, hey, tell me what it was like for you when that happened to you at your last Mhmm. You know? And so that that is those two questions are really helpful. Yeah.
John Crawford:There's other ones too, but those are like two of my favorites.
Ben Loy:No. That's good. That second one's like the ultimate open ended question because it's it is 100% through their eyes and their lived experience and their emotions and Yep. I mean, you will I would imagine you will never ever ever get the same answer to that question from different people or maybe even from the same person depending on what you're touching on.
John Crawford:Yeah. You you probably won't. And what you probably will get are, a lot of tears a lot of times. And that that's one of my one one of the reasons why I love that question so much is it connects so deeply emotionally with people. The number of people who have cried when I've asked them that question, men and women.
John Crawford:Yeah. They're just like break. Because once again, you can apply that to anything. Yeah. It's like, hey, tell me what it was like when a really hard thing.
John Crawford:Like, of your, one of your coworkers, man, their their brother was killed. Yeah. It's like, man, tell me what that was like for you when you're going through that, you know, after your brother died, you know, and it's like, dude, you're gonna get tears, you know, or whatever it is. Do you
Ben Loy:have any other, like, maybe someone wants to formulate their own questions or any other practical, like, tools people can use if they wanna if they wanna start listening better?
John Crawford:One is to to write, like, two to three open ended good questions. Like and if you if you wanna take those ones and, use them, use them. But if you wanna modify them to give you some kind of, like, question template, have two to three go to questions. And the reason why I recommend that is sometimes it's hard to think of really good questions. Like, oh, I got a book of, like, 50 questions.
John Crawford:That's hard, but if you have some open ended ones like this that you can apply to any conversation or situation, those will just work. Then you don't have to overly think about it. The other one is, if you want to practically grow as a listener, spend time around a really good listener. I've said this before and even on another podcast episode, but it's just true. Is if you are trying to learn, the best way to learn some of this stuff isn't to be taught it, it's to see it modeled in real life and to experience it.
John Crawford:When you have been on the receiving end of someone asking you really good questions and listening to you, you're like, man, I wanna learn from that person. And more things are caught than taught. And so I could teach you how to grow as a listener, but when you spend time around a really good listener, it'll rub off on you, and you see it actually made visible. It's not just some concept in a book or on a podcast, but, like, man, that's amazing, you know? Mhmm.
John Crawford:And so I would say try to try to spend time around someone that's a really good listener and see what they do, you know, because they'll probably do some stuff maybe similar to what I'm saying, but they'll might do some stuff different that might actually be even better and more helpful. I have it as a goal, like a practice of when I was really trying to grow in listening of the eighty twenty rule. So what I do, and what I what I did several years ago is to go into conversations to say, hey, I am going to listen 80% of the time and only speak 20% of the time. And that 20% will probably be when I'm asked. Like, hey, what do you think about that?
John Crawford:Or what about you? Then I'll speak. I'm not going to refrain and be silent, but to say, hey, 80% of this meeting that I'm about to have, I want it to be the other person talking. That's a really helpful just to make it a discipline to think about it, and it doesn't have to be eightytwenty, but percentage to say, Hey, the goal of this meeting, if I'm meeting with this person for two hours, you do the math of 80% of that time. You should be asking questions and seeking to understand and then you'll speak.
John Crawford:So those are some that have just been, like, helpful for me. I think the big one is just having some good questions to ask, having the the posture of actively listening, not being on your phone Mhmm. Not being distracted, but to say, hey, I'm present with you. Then I think it's just helpful if you see it modeled so that you are able to say, oh, there's different ways that you can do this, especially in different contexts. So those would some of the ones that I think have been helpful for me that I think have helped other people as well.
John Crawford:Sure.
Ben Loy:What would you say to someone who maybe maybe they're in the marketplace, you know, they they have a job, their relationships at work feel more transactional and maybe hurried. Like, how how could someone because you're you're obviously not gonna just step into someone's office and go, like, tell me tell me your deepest, darkest secrets or, like, how are yeah. Like, how are you how do you bridge that gap and maybe maybe start to take steps relationally with people around you who you haven't even even ventured into this area with?
John Crawford:Dude, that's a great question. Obviously, depends on, like, the organization and the structure of size and and teams and all that, but I would say start with whoever you are closest to in the organization. So if it's, if it's a peer, start there. You know, start with a peer. Maybe it's not someone that's a direct report, but maybe it's your peer, start there.
John Crawford:And maybe maybe it's been kind of a transactional, like you and I are peers and it's kind of been transactional, but say, hey, we're peers. I'd love to like, man, can we grab lunch sometime? I'd love to just get to know you more because and I would even name it like, hey, sometimes I feel like this peer to peer is kind of transactional, like, it'd be cool. We're rubbing shoulders. We're, you know, we're working towards the same goal.
John Crawford:Like, let's connect. I would start there. Think, just like everything, if you're trying to grow as a listener, I would start somewhere and grow. Don't be like, Hey, I'm going to listen to every single employee. That's also maybe just impractical for the organization.
John Crawford:And even for me, like, as a pastor of the size of the church, I don't meet with every single person in the church. You know, the hope is that everybody on our staff is connecting with, you know, people in the church, but it's just there's too many people in the church for just me. And honestly, even on our staff, you know? Like, staff is so big that we have to have, obviously, different people who are listening to their direct reports on staff. And so I would say start somewhere small.
John Crawford:Start maybe with a peer, start with somebody that maybe you're most comfortable with because it can be a little intimidating, especially if this changes like the MO for how you navigate. And then I think you'll see the fruit of it. Mhmm. I have never talked to someone that began practicing listening that said it was unfruitful or a waste. Everybody sees the benefit in it.
John Crawford:It can be awkward at first, especially if it's like, oh, this is new, you know, but, people see the fruit of it because it just it's how humans are wired.
Ben Loy:Yeah.
John Crawford:And so people will respond in a different way, and they will receive your leadership in a different way. Mhmm. So I'd start somewhere small.
Ben Loy:Yeah. What would you say are the the biggest primary benefits of listening well, whether that's from a leadership perspective or just relationally one on one.
John Crawford:A big benefit is that you will better understand the people that you're leading. Like, that's just like, from, like, baseline Mhmm. The the biggest benefit is you will begin to not assume the worst and believe the worst about people and we're all prone to do that, but that's when we're given the least amount of information and we make assumptions about people. And so for you as a leader, you will be able to enter in to someone's life in a different way and you'll see their even if you don't agree with it, you'll see how they're getting to where they're getting. And there's a power in proximity.
John Crawford:Mhmm. And proximity breeds empathy And that's where, you know, talking about, like, feeling for someone of, dang, that's your story. I had no idea. I didn't know that happened to you. Proximity breeds empathy, but distance breeds suspicion.
John Crawford:Mhmm. And when you don't have and you don't even have like, we could still be like this across the table on a team, but still have distance. Like, I don't know you. You don't know me. We don't you know?
John Crawford:And what that does is it breeds suspicion. And so some of what this really does is it actually makes a team much closer and more cohesive, and that's somewhere where the retention comes in, is that you can actually create a culture in your organization or your place of employment through listening, a culture of listening. And it's honestly, the the way that it's felt is a humble leadership culture. It's like, hey, the leaders are actually seeking to hear from me. They're not just coming in heavy handed, telling me what I need to do or telling me what I don't know or telling me this, but they actually care about me and it's going to be received as humility.
John Crawford:I think that's a big benefit. Think you have another one outside of the conflict resolution stuff. I think that's a huge benefit where I've seen it play out the most from my own vantage point experience. The biggest benefit is the conflict resolution. So much conflict is from unmet expectations or misaligned expectations and it's just a lack of listening and communicating.
John Crawford:People just misunderstand each other, you know? And so I think that that's a huge benefit. One that I one that we haven't hit though is in most businesses, and I know even in the church, we want to develop leaders. We want more leaders. We want the next generation of leaders.
John Crawford:We want more, you know, like, more teams, you know, people who have an ownership mentality for what we're doing. And, man, when you seek to listen and understand people, it actually can provide a pool of potential future leaders. And so it's just a great way to actually get to know the people that you're working with and are working under you. And so I think the retention is a benefit of that. But the leadership development piece is huge.
John Crawford:To say, man, I've been connecting with Ben and this guy is great. He's a leader. We've to figure out some environments or pathways for him, what might that look like? But that only happens by doing this.
Ben Loy:Yeah. You know? That makes me think of, like, any mentorship type relationships I've ever had. And it's hilarious because you you go to a mentor and you think, oh, they're just gonna, like, pour into me and give me all this information. Most of the time, like, 90% of a mentor relationship is, like, me asking them a bunch of or them asking me a bunch of questions and me just, like, word vomiting and sharing about my life and then and then to kind of put, like, you know, there is some guidance and things involved in that.
Ben Loy:But it it it often is more them asking questions than anything else and and then that creating clarity and guidance for, like, the way that I wanna grow, the way I wanna develop as a leader. Yeah. It kinda flips the expectation on its head.
John Crawford:Dude, the, I love that I love what you just said about mentors because typically, a mentor is viewed as someone that's wise. Mhmm. And I have never met a wise person that wasn't a really good listener. Mhmm. Like, it's almost synonymous.
John Crawford:Yep. You know, like, there's something about wisdom of, like, hey, I wanna listen. And even, like, in scripture, in the Bible, something that has been really helpful for me is in James one, I think it's 19 through 21. But be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry because the anger of man doesn't produce the righteousness of God. To translate that into just non biblical languages, hey, don't be quick to speak because it actually leads to anger.
John Crawford:And when you're quick to anger, it's the worst of you is gonna come out. Be quick to listen instead. Mhmm. And that's why I think so many wise people embody this. Like, in in James, it's wisdom literature and it's showing you this is how wise people live is be quick to listen.
John Crawford:Mhmm. But so often, like, even in my own life, I used to talk all the time. Talk over people. Like, my meetings were always, like, I'm telling everybody and I'm dominating. And yet, also, like, when you're quick to speak, you're also gonna be quick to become angry.
John Crawford:Mhmm. And that's not gonna produce good things. Yeah. It's gonna create chaos and conflict and all of that. But listening is actually a really, really powerful means of embodying wisdom in people's lives.
John Crawford:Yeah. How do listening and control, interact? Dude, that's a great question, man. Listening and control, when you listen, you are actually not seeking to be in control. You actually give someone else the feeling of being in control based on you're asking them to answer your questions and and genuine curiosity.
John Crawford:And so I think you are giving up control in that, which is why I think it's you're serving someone. But I think the fruit of it, the benefit of being a listening leader or just listening in life is you don't have to force control. You don't have to try to take control. Because people feel loved and cared for by you, they want to submit to your leadership and follow you, and so it leads you to being able to actually lead.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
John Crawford:And I don't think you have to grasp for control or try to dominate and implement like I'm going to control because people respect you. And I think that when leaders aren't respected a lot of times, they oftentimes have to make the case for this is why you need to follow me and, you know
Ben Loy:Yep.
John Crawford:And so I think it it it's actually, like, the byproduct of this is you don't have have to, like, fight for it or vie for it or force it. Yeah. That's what I say
Ben Loy:off the off the cuff. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Loy:I mean, it just speaks back into that that idea of servant leadership. Like Totally. Relational investment. Right? Building trust within both the people that that follow you and and peer to peer as well.
Ben Loy:Right?
John Crawford:Yeah. I think the going back to the beginning is, like, on the epidemic of loneliness, there's even now, like I would make the case, there's now more of a need for it Mhmm. Than in 2019. So if you just play out what happened with COVID, social distance, isolation, everything post COVID Virtual work.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yeah.
John Crawford:Yep. Virtual work, more and more digitization of now we're in the age of AI and now people are actually forming relationships with bots. People are talking to bots. Then there's all kinds of different bots, not just romantic ones but there's therapeutic bots. You can have a chatbot for your therapy.
John Crawford:And, like, all of all this is just showing us people are, like, craving this, and people that we work with are craving it. And I even had a conversation with a guy, and and he's not like a a strange guy. I was actually pretty I was pretty surprised to hear him say it, you know, because he's not a socially awkward guy or anything like that, but he said that he's realized that the person he has now started to talk with the most is ChatGPT. Like, he's formed, like, a dialogue, like, relationship with ChatGPT. Mhmm.
John Crawford:And you just go, man, like, people are longing to be listened to. And if we were in an epidemic of loneliness in 2019 before COVID, before OpenAI, you know, before all of the things, and you just see, like, we are still in a mental health epidemic. The use and need of therapists is greater now than ever has been. Mhmm. So And this isn't even among old people or our age.
John Crawford:This is the next generation as well. This is Gen Z and even younger than Gen Z that are like, man, people are lonely. I think that that's just something to be said because I didn't close the loop on that. Like, this wasn't just a 2019 problem. Yeah.
John Crawford:But it's actually gotten worse. Yep. You know? And so, I think that that a lot of people that we are whether we're leading them, whether we're working with them, whether they're our clients, you know, like my clients at the salon is people are, like, longing for this but feel like I mean, you can't be really listened to on social media or online, you know, and so, yeah, there's just I think there's a huge opportunity to lead in listening. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:Well, and I think, like, our, like, relationships have become increasingly more transactional
John Crawford:Yeah.
Ben Loy:As, you know, yeah, we've moved into the digital age and and technology and efficiencies. And so, like, what I've even caught myself doing is is, like, there there are moments where, maybe I need advice in a certain area or I need connections or whatever it is. Right? Just, like, trying to understand or grasp a specific topic. It could be finances, it could be working on my car, And in in a previous day and age, you would reach out to community, you'd reach out to friends.
Ben Loy:Yeah. You you might reach out to even professional. So it is a transactional relationship, but it's still a transactional relationship with a human being.
John Crawford:Yep.
Ben Loy:And as this continues to grow and become more and more part of our society, it will continue to be more and more transactional. And Totally. I I mean, I'm interested to see because I I think, yeah, that loneliness culturally is really gonna increase. Yep. And also with that, like, the need for deep relationships Yeah.
Ben Loy:Is also gonna increase. And I yeah. I mean, listening just it just seems like such a powerful way to to break the ice on that.
John Crawford:Yeah, man. I I agree. I agree.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to say on this subject that you haven't gotten to?
John Crawford:No. I I think, like, the the motivation even for me is, obviously, I'm a pastor and and a Christian, but I think that this is not just all of the need that we're naming of, like, our societal moment and our cultural moment, but for me, this is God's posture towards us. Mhmm. And so in Psalm one sixteen, it says that God bends down and inclines his ear or he bends down and he listens. He inclines his ear to us and he listens to us.
John Crawford:And so I think just a huge thing is like, hey, this is not just within our culture and the moment we're in. This is a human desire and this is actually how God acts towards us Mhmm. Is that he bends down and listens. Mhmm. And so we have a really powerful opportunity to embody the listening presence of God to others.
John Crawford:And so, that's part of reason why I believe it's so so powerful in people's lives.
Ben Loy:In closing, if there was one step that someone could take, to start to develop this skill, whether it's a resource, you know, a place to go, an action they can take, what
John Crawford:would you
Ben Loy:say is is a good first step?
John Crawford:I would say the best thing is to examine yourself to see if you have a genuine desire Mhmm. To grow in listening because you have to want it. If you don't want to grow as a listener, you never will. So I I would say step one is, do you want to actually become a better listener? And if you do, then I would say the next step is come up with those, like, two to three good questions that you can start to ask people and and see the benefit because you it'll all be, like, ethereal and conceptual until you actually do it and see, like, oh, this was like this was powerful.
John Crawford:And then I think you'll be convinced of it. And then, you know, there's a lot of other resources. So that's what I would say. Yeah. It's like you gotta want it.
John Crawford:If so, come up with, like, two, three good questions. Use the ones that I that I gave even if you don't know how to format formulate those, and start, like, choose a person and say, yeah, I want to try to get to know them better, listen, understand them, all of that.
Ben Loy:Yeah, John, I really appreciate this conversation. I know that, I mean, this is an area that you're passionate about, you've developed, you know, you're a practitioner of. And I know I even have, like, personally benefited from from you developing this and just our interactions in the way that you lead. So this was great. Thank you.
John Crawford:Yeah, man. Thanks, dude. It fun. Yep. Hey, y'all.
John Crawford:Thanks so much for watching. If you want more content like this, we've got some killer stuff planned. So make sure you rate, review and subscribe. Let's go. Let's go.
John Crawford:Let's go.