Flying and Dying: A Pilot's Journey from Cardiac Arrest to Recovery

Tom Heidema, an experienced American Airlines pilot, shares his incredible journey from becoming a flight instructor to navigating the highs and lows of his aviation career, including a life-altering cardiac arrest. He discusses the importance of maintaining health and fitness as a pilot, emphasizing that flying is just one part of a more significant identity. The episode details his near-death experience and the profound insights he gained about family and life beyond aviation. Tom also highlights essential qualities sought in pilot candidates during the hiring process, such as technical proficiency, interpersonal skills, and the ability to advocate for others. As he promotes his book, "Flying and Dying," he aims to inspire and educate others on the importance of mental health and resilience in the aviation community.

Tom Heidema, a seasoned pilot with American Airlines and author of the book *Flying and Dying*, shares his compelling journey from aspiring aviator to airline captain. He recounts his early fascination with flying, sparked at the age of four when he first boarded an airplane. This passion propelled him to begin flight lessons at 14, despite initial skepticism from his family about his commitment to aviation. As he narrates his journey, Heidema reflects on the pivotal moments that shaped his career, including his experiences as a Certified Flight Instructor (CFI) and his subsequent transition to flying for commuter airlines before finally joining American Airlines. Throughout the conversation, he emphasizes the importance of having a supportive network, including mentors who inspired him and colleagues who have become friends over the years.

The episode also delves into Heidema's near-death experience due to cardiac arrest, which occurred in November 2020. He vividly describes the harrowing moments as he lost consciousness and was revived through CPR and an AED, emphasizing the critical importance of being prepared for emergencies. This experience not only reshaped his view on life and health but also inspired him to advocate for the installation of AEDs in public spaces. Heidema discusses how he transformed his ordeal into a mission to save lives, pledging a portion of the book's proceeds to support cardiac arrest awareness and education. This narrative serves as a powerful reminder of the fragility of life and the impact one can have on others by sharing their story.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own passions and the importance of pursuing them, while also understanding the significance of health and community. Heidema's story is one of resilience, demonstrating that even in the face of adversity, there is an opportunity to grow and give back. The episode wraps up with Heidema discussing his book, which not only chronicles his life and experiences in aviation but also seeks to inspire and educate others about the realities of being a pilot and the importance of mental health in aviation. By sharing his journey, Heidema hopes to motivate aspiring pilots and remind current aviators of the importance of connection, health, and the legacy they leave behind.

What is Pilot to Pilot?

Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.

Episode 322 of the pilot to
Pilot podcast takes off now.

Fly with Garmin Avionics.

Then grab your mobile device
and make the Garmin Pilot app your

cockpit companion.

Get advanced functions you'll
use before, during and after every

flight, including updating
your aircraft's databases and logging

engine data Plan file Fly log
with Garmin Pilot the Pilot to Pilot

podcast is brought to you by
Learn the finer points.

Use the link below to save 10%
off their ground school app.

All pilots like to have the
big weather picture when they're

flying and that's why I use
SiriusXM Aviation.

I'm able to check things like
fronts, air mitts, sigmits, turbulence,

pireps and more while I'm pre
flighting and while I'm en route.

This gives me and my
passengers the most comfortable flying

experience.

And now with the latest offer
from SiriusXM, there's never a better

time to upgrade your next
flight with the Garmin GDL52 portable

receiver to bring SiriusXM in
80 ADSB weather plus traffic into

your cockpit.

SiriusXM Aviation is offering
a $400 rebate on new receivers purchased

by December.

The GDL52 is compatible with
Garmin Pilot and Foreflight.

Take advantage of this great
offer and fly with the weather I

count on for every flight.

To learn more, visit
sportys.com sxmoffer that's.

Sporty.Com sxmoffer I'm Tom
Haidema, pilot for American Airlines.

I am A Chicago based 787
captain and author of the book Flying

and Dying AV Nation.

Welcome back to today's podcast.

Today's podcast is an
interesting one because it is with

the person who gave me my CJO
at the airline.

So I don't really know how
this kind of worked out.

I was just searching Instagram
one day and his name popped up and

I was like, oh my gosh, this
guy's an influencer.

He has 80,000 followers and I
have 40.

So I was kind of like blown
away by that.

But he came to my feed again,
say six months later as we're sitting,

maybe even a year later
because he released a book.

The book is called Flying and Dying.

You can get on Amazon, Amazon,
you can follow his page.

I'll link everything below.

This is Tom and Tom writes
about how he died for 20 minutes.

He had cardiac arrest.

He was dead, brought back to
life by an aed.

It's a fascinating story and
you can read it in the book, you

can listen to the podcast, but
I highly recommend you go to Flying

and Dying.

This conversation we had was phenomenal.

If you are interested in
applying to the airlines in general,

American Airlines, we.

We have some really helpful
hints on how to prepare, how to come

into the interview, and what
you should kind of prepare for.

I think it's going to be
beneficial for everyone, like I said,

no matter what airline you
want to go to, because a lot of these

techniques, a lot of what the
airlines are looking for are kind

of similar.

Every airline kind of has a
little bit different of what they

want.

But Tom has helped hire a lot
of people at the airlines, and he's

very passionate about it.

So when he talks, you should
definitely listen.

It's a great podcast, and I'm
really excited to share this.

So go buy the book Flying and Dying.

I have it right here.

I'm hoping to read it.

I just got caught on a trip,
like, five seconds ago.

So Mexico City tomorrow, here
we come.

I'll have time to read it, but
AV Nation, I hope you enjoy this

episode.

And without any further ado,
here's Tom Heidam.

Hey, Tom.

Welcome to the Pilot.

The Pilot podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm happy to have you on.

You know, it's funny.

I messaged you.

I actually found your account.

Like, I think I was in the
middle of my SIM training.

I was like, oh, that is the
guy that gave me my CJO at American.

And I.

I think someone I was sitting
with was like, oh, he has an Instagram

page.

I looked him up.

It's like, no way.

He's got more followers than me.

I was like, that's crazy.

So that really kind of blew me away.

And I watched some of your
stuff, and of course, showing off

the 787.

I mean, it doesn't get any
better than that.

So just watching those videos
and seeing all that and then later

finding out your story and
your book, it's just crazy.

And I'm looking forward to
having you on, and I think you'll

have a great story to tell and
it'll be a lot of fun.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm looking forward to people
learning about it, and hopefully

it'll be of benefit to people
also to know what happened to me

and my past and where I'm
going with it.

Absolutely.

Well, we're going to start
kind of at the beginning.

I always ask everyone the
first question.

It's always the same.

Why aviation?

What was it about flying.

Aviation that got you interested?

Well, flying saved me the first.

I remember moving to this
country when I was about 4 years

old and getting on an airplane
for the first time, thinking it was

absolutely amazing.

It imprinted me from that time on.

And when I was 14 years old, I
took an intro flight at a local airport,

Campbell Airport in Pittsburgh.

It's no longer there, but an
intro flight back then, you get about

20, 25 minutes, and it was all
of $5.

And I can remember, yeah, it's
a different day.

And I remember just being
absolutely amazed by it.

Now.

I'm six foot five now.

When I took that intro ride, I
needed pillows to see over the dash.

So I've grown a little bit since.

And I just remember that in
high school or even elementary, middle

school, I was never really
interested in studying or learning

anything.

But when it came to airplanes,
it was different.

It was just a horse of a
different color.

And all I wanted to do was
absorb knowledge and learn about

flying.

So I started taking lessons at
about 14.

It was super cheap back then.

I worked in a TV and appliance store.

Oh, cool.

And every couple weeks, I have
a couple bucks together for a flying

lesson.

That's what I spent it on.

That's incredible.

Yeah.

I saw the back of your book.

It said, from a 150 to a 787.

I was thinking back, I was
like, this guy's pretty tall.

He's taller than me.

It's like 150.

Must not have been too
comfortable for him.

But if it was the intro for
Fight, you had pillows to see over

probably worked out pretty well.

Yeah, I filled out a little
bit since then, too, and quite fit

in a 150 anymore.

If I didn't even get off the
ground with me in it.

Probably not.

It was.

It was the first one.

It was to me that was anything.

Even the smell of an airplane
had this certain familiarity to it

that was just very endearing.

Yeah.

And I really kind of relate to
what you said about school just not

really clicking.

Uh, I was never a big school fan.

I played sports, so that got
me into college and.

And I was a bad student by any
means, but just nothing really was

of interest to me until I took
my first flight lesson.

I was like, oh, wow.

I.

Maybe I just didn't like.

Like, I'm not.

School's not hard for me.

I just didn't like what I was
learning, if that makes sense.

Right.

I think that happens for.

For more people than what
people think.

Because a lot of people look
up, see, pilots are like, oh, they

gotta be super smart.

It's like, well, I mean, you
do have to Be somewhat smart, but

we both know a lot of pilots
that aren't the brightest people

in the world, and they get it done.

So who's to say you can't do it?

Right?

But goes to show that when you
find something you're passionate

about, you can really kind of
make it your craft and try to be

the best pie that you can and
always learn.

I agree.

Yeah.

Yeah, you kind of.

And I see some of these posts
where people, like, look at all these

books, all this stuff I have
to learn, and there's meteorology

there, and there's
aerodynamics and all these other

things, but you kind of enjoy
it because that's all a part of becoming

a better pilot, is learning
all those subjects.

And though it may seem
daunting at first, you just take

it.

As they say, the journey of a
thousand miles starts with a single

step, and you start turning pages.

And some of it's a little
drier than others, but for the most

part, you kind of use a lot of it.

And it's something that you
build upon at each of those pages

as you turn it.

You're becoming more educated
in being a successful aviator.

Yep.

Perfectly said.

It's like building a house.

You go brick by brick, right?

You get the foundation, and
then you keep going on, and you learn

kind of the arithmetic, and
you go into calculus or whatever

the equation would be for
that, into aviation.

So you started taking flight
lessons at 14.

Were your parents.

Were they into aviation at all?

Were they kind of like, you
want to be a pilot?

This is kind of strange.

Like, talk a little bit about
the relationship with flying and

family and support that you had.

Yeah, well, they saw that I
liked it.

I was a troublemaker as a kid,
and not to show my hand in the book,

but my mom at one point said,
I just hope you're not in jail someday,

and that you have a job.

But then she saw my passion
for airplanes, and that would be

my direction.

And I was fortunate that
flying isn't for everybody.

I learned that as a flight
instructor or even sometimes it's

a.

A medical reason.

I notice pilots are people who
tend to have a lot of situational

awareness.

I can tell sometimes by how
somebody drives a car, how good a

pilot they're going to be
because they seem to take things

in and they're able to
naturally figure out what the most

important parts of what
they're taking in are and have kind

of a 360 view.

And when people do that in a
car, they tend to be good pilots,

too.

Good drivers.

Are good pilots typically not.

Not exclusively.

But for the most part, when it
came to circle background of my parents,

they were a little skeptical
because I really had never hung on

to anything.

But this was the one thing
that I truly continued with that

I didn't want to give up on
because I knew it was the only thing

that I really, really wanted
to do.

And anything other than that
would not have made me feel like

I'd fulfilled my own dreams.

So at 14, getting those pilot
license or getting the pilot, you

obviously have to go to school.

You got to complete school.

Were you kind of motivated for
this dream?

Did this kind of kickstart you
doing better in school at all?

Or is it still pretty hard for
you to focus in school when all you're

really thinking about was was flying?

Not really.

I was on the basketball team.

I was chasing.

I'd love to say that it
motivated, but it didn't.

Back then you didn't need much
of a GPA to get into college.

Yeah, thank God for that.

I got to Embry Riddle and at
that point things did turn because

now I'm pursuing aeronautical science.

I'm pursuing something I love.

And yeah, my, my GPA went way up.

I had almost a 4.0there
because there are obviously there's

subjects you don't like there.

But now I'm in an environment
with other people who want to learn

how to fly.

And you kind of motivate each
other too.

You tend to build on each
other's inspiration.

And that I think helped me a
lot to where I said, okay, I got

to get serious about this.

And I did.

What was it about Embry Riddle
that kind of drove you that direction?

Just the biggest aviation
school you could find.

And I want to surround myself
with other like minded people.

Or did you have some other
flight schools that you're looking

at other universities?

Well, I took academics at
Embry Riddle and then I flew at north

there in Prescott, Arizona.

Okay.

I went to Emory Riddle because
back then there weren't many schools

that had aviation focus and I
wanted to kind of get away.

I grew up in Pittsburgh and I
wanted to go somewhere kind of far

away and do things on my own.

So I went to the area, the
campus out there in Arizona.

And I guess at the time I
didn't really consider there may

have been other programs in
other places.

Arizona just sounded really
cool to me and it gave me enough

distance from my hometown to
where I knew I had to stand on my

own two feet.

There's something about that.

I grew up in North Carolina.

I decided to go to Ohio State.

I actually played football at
Ohio State.

And it was one of the best
decisions I ever made was leaving

my hometown, getting out of
everything that was comfortable and

kind of figuring out how to do
life on my own.

Right.

You have nothing to rely on.

You have little friends.

You got to kind of figure out
who you are and what you like and

enjoy on your own.

And I think it was one of the
best experiences I ever had.

Now, it's not to say it's not
hard, right.

And it's kind of scary when
you think about it, especially if

all you know is Pittsburgh or
Charlotte or wherever you.

You're coming from.

But I think it's definitely
something that is.

I'll probably won't tell my
kid that.

I'm gonna tell my kid he needs
to stay close, he needs to stay local,

you know.

But yeah, as someone who's
listening to this, definitely go,

Go far away if you can.

You learn a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My kids are a little too far
away now.

They went to school in State.

Here I'm living.

I live in southwest Michigan
and now they're kind of all gone.

So I'm kind of hoping they're.

They'll come back at some point.

I don't think they will.

What part of Michigan do you
live in?

Kalamazoo, just south of Kalamazoo.

Portage.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, I love my house here.

It's a great place to raise my kids.

Yeah, it's a great area.

I.

I used to fly single pilot
freight and we used to go to Holland.

So that's how I was kind of
putting together like where all the,

all the areas are.

So we went to Holland all the time.

Went to Kalamazoo, Grand
Rapids, obviously Detroit and Ypsilanti

for all the auto.

Auto cars and everything.

But yeah, yeah, but yeah, there's.

It's a great place and there's
some great breweries up there in

that area if people earn a
beer, so.

Can't go wrong.

Yeah, there are.

Yeah.

Bells is the big one out of here.

But there are a lot of micro
breweries to lat 42.

There's a couple of.

And that new place down the
street here called Presidential Brun.

Boy, perfect.

Yeah, we got some good beer there.

They know how to make their
beer in Michigan, that's for sure.

You.

So you're in Arizona now.

Did you get your private
before you went there?

Did you have any kind of
certificates or did you get everything

in Arizona?

Okay, yeah, I had a private
and I actually Got a multi engine

rating when I was a senior.

Oh, really?

That's money.

And I had a choice either to
go to the prom or get a multi engine

rating.

And there was a flight school
that had.

They had this brand new
Beechcraft Duchess.

And I just not.

I mean, I know pilots are kind
of nerds, but I really wanted to

get my hands on that airplane
more than anything else in the world.

And it's kind of probably
weird to admit that now, but I don't

regret it.

There were.

There are plenty of time that.

There's plenty of time to do
other things too.

And for me to get that rating.

The woman who taught me that
the Mei was actually a teacher in

my high school.

Oh, no way.

Robert Rosny.

Yeah.

And I don't know if she flies anymore.

I haven't been in touch with
her in 30 or 40 years.

But she kind of gave me a bit
of a push.

She made me more of a perfectionist.

I remember I would talk to her
and she said, don't ever be 50 foot

high or 50ft low and settle
for it.

Be right on your altitude.

And she gave me tools to be
meticulous that I.

That I've carried throughout
the last 45 years of flying now.

Yeah, I think it's really cool.

For me, it was when I was
doing my commercial, my.

That's when my instructor
finally, he's like, you are a professional

pilot.

You are expected to perform at
professional standards, and you shouldn't

be happy with anything other
than those standards.

And that has stuck with me
ever since.

You know, it's like you said,
you're 50ft high.

You're like, you're shooting yourself.

You're like, oh, my gosh, that
was awful.

It might be a smooth landing,
but you know that you were either

unstable, a little too fast,
you could have done something better

to make it perfect.

Yeah, yeah.

It's funny, you talk about
stable, you know, nice landing.

That's something.

The pastor, oh, he made the
nicest landing.

Yeah, but he made it 4, 000ft
down the Runway too.

That's my favorite.

Yeah, that's my favorite when
I flew at my last company.

Yeah, they're like floating
down, way down.

They're like, oh, that was so nice.

I'm like, yeah, but you're
supposed to land back there.

It's like, we probably should
have gone around, man.

What were you doing?

Yeah, I'm with you.

Yeah.

Oh, it's pretty funny.

Um, but yeah, so you're in
Arizona now.

You're at Embry Riddle, you're flying.

Separate from Embry Riddle,
which I've heard a lot of people

do.

Cause Embry Riddle is not the
cheapest school in the world.

So if you can find any
discount to in flying, you go for

it.

Um, you get your training in
Embry Riddle.

You get your training at a 61
school, you can still get to American

Delta United.

They're not going to care
where you went, just as long as you

have a good record and you
have your training.

So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was able to get a lot
more quickly, too.

By my second year there, I had
cfi and now I was teaching students

while I was in school.

And I had a good deal, too.

I was the assistant athletic
director, so that gave me free room

and board plus a salary.

So I had a good deal at Embry Riddle.

And I was doing stuff I love, too.

I really enjoyed all the
athleticism and being able to be

in a school where I could do
athletics as well as fly.

Yeah.

Did you ever think, you know,
like 14 year old self even looking

at your mom and dad, kind of
what you said about your mom was

like, man, I just hope you're
not in jail.

Was there ever a time when you
became an instructor and your mom's

like, holy crap, you're like
doing this right now.

You're teaching other people and.

Never thought my kid would be
doing that.

She.

Well, it came a little earlier
than that.

I think once, once I showed a
commitment, got my private pilot's

license that really showed
that I could complete a task.

She was very impressed the day
that I soloed.

And I remember her thinking,
okay, things kind of turned to where

she now had a new confidence
in me because she saw my passion

for something.

And some of us are late bloomers.

There are a lot of people who
kind of start on the wrong foot and

then one day they decide.

And even in aviation, I'm
involved with the American Airlines

pilot interview standards
team, and we hire pilots from 23

to 64.

And some of those.

It's been a lifelong dream,
and I love to see somebody even in

their later years be able to
fulfill that dream.

I think it's really cool you
say that because I wanted to bring

that up at some point today.

Obviously we talked about how
you gave me my cjo.

It was a great experience.

Experience.

But in that class of people
that we had, even in the class that

I had, we had, I think we had
like a 24 year old.

We had a 60 year old.

So it goes to show that if you
can do this later in life.

I get a lot of DMS.

I get a lot of people saying,
hey, I'm 35.

Is it too late?

Like you still have 30 years
of flying?

Yeah, it's like you have a
whole career ahead of you.

Like, get started, go.

So it doesn't matter if you
start at 23, obviously it'd be nice

if you start at 23.

I have a buddy who is a
regional captain and the amount of

money he told me he's going to
make this year on bonuses and regional,

I'm just like, that's insane.

And he's like 24 years old.

I was like when I was 24, I
was making $15 an hour, building

up all my time.

It's like, good for you, dude.

That's amazing.

Yeah, it's great right now.

And I kind of like seeing that
come up, especially at a regional

level.

I worked at a commuter airline
and back then it didn't pay much.

But a lot of it depends on
life situation too.

When people say, hey, I'm this
age and I want to start just a lot

of it has my answer to whether
or not they should do it has a lot

to do with their life, family
or their life situation.

If they have an infant, a 2
and a 4 year old, it's like, okay,

that's where your priority
should lie.

Because there is a sacrifice
in learning how to fly and having

a deal of lower seniority and
not having a very advantageous schedule

now the schedules and the job
have changed now to where you can

not only get move up a little
more quickly, but to where, for instance,

in America now there's holiday pay.

So I always had to work Christmas.

Well, now they jump at those
trips because they're a premium pay

trip.

So you're able to, once you
gain seniority, have a little bit

more manipulation over
schedule if you do have family commitments.

Yeah, I was surprised that I
had Thanksgiving off.

I was like, that's pretty nice.

I like this.

I could get used to this.

So I was very excited about that.

We'll find out about Christmas
in a couple of days.

But very excited about Thanksgiving.

When you were going through
training in every riddle, was there

anything that you struggled
with whether being away from home?

I know you said that it was
great that you were not that way,

but a lot of times it can be.

Sometimes can be difficult
when you're just so new somewhere

or flying itself was
instrument, private, commercial.

Is there anything that you
struggled with out in Arizona flying

wise or personally?

I wouldn't say flying wise,
that went.

That went well.

Luckily, there was stuff that
I could lock onto now, the flight

ability stuff.

I felt like I learned that quickly.

Some of the.

I think when you go to an
instrument rating that it just becomes

another whole new chapter of
learning how to fly and to incorporate

your base knowledge and then
do that.

I think that's a big chapter
and there's a lot of detail in that.

I think more it was
personally, you have those nights

when you're just all by
yourself and you wish you could talk

to your mom or your dad or
your brother or whoever.

And it was 1981 when I was there.

So you couldn't just pick up a
cell phone and do a FaceTime call.

It was long distance and it
was expensive.

And if you made a long
distance call, you were looking at

what it cost per minute.

And you can only have so many
of those nights where you want to

pick up the phone and lean on
somebody that you know or that you

can trust.

And there were times I can
remember where I thought, okay, I'm

kind of out here by myself.

These are all new people.

But it made me more
comfortable with my own independence.

And once you get through those
kind of those couple of lonely times,

you find a good friend group.

You find people who are kind
of like minded.

And then you end up, you're
doing so much stuff at that point

to where you're involving with
those people or those subjects or

those activities to where you
kind of turn the page on the things

that bother you or maybe cause
you to be a little bit more.

Feel a little bit more alone.

Yeah.

And keeping yourself busy,
which I'm sure you saw too.

It's like distracting your
mind getting involved.

Like you said, athletic
director or athletics or clubs.

There's a lot you can do when
you go to college.

You just got to look for it.

The opportunities are out there.

The opportunity is to sit at
home and not do anything.

But there's also opportunities
to get involved and meet people.

And sometimes it's just up to
you to put yourself out there, which

is scary and can be hard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It reminds me of a story I
probably shouldn't share, but I will.

I love it.

I had the keys to everything
as the assistant athletic director.

And we'd go out and we'd be,
we would.

We'd be slightly altered and
I'd be like, hey, let's go shoot

basketball.

And I'd open up, we'd be
playing ball, there'd be beers in

there and security show Up.

And I'd be like, hey, that's Tom.

All right, go ahead.

Just lock up when you're done.

But, yeah, that.

That little extra privilege,
it opened a few doors, but we had

some fun with it, too.

Yeah.

As you should.

It's always good to have a bit
of fun.

A little safe fun, right?

You weren't hurting anyone?

Yeah, no, no.

Just as long as the basketball
didn't hit your beer bottle.

Everything was.

Everything was good.

Being out there, being a cfi,
what was the goal?

I guess, as young Tom as a
pilot, was it American Airlines?

Was it just flying for fun,
figuring out as you go, kind of.

What were your goals for your
professional career at an early age?

Well, the most important thing
in all of this is to enjoy every

step of the way.

I.

Of course, you want to look
forward to the future, but you never

want to miss out on what
you're doing right now.

And I talk about it in the
books, actually.

Chapter two, where I worked
for a flight school in Pittsburgh,

Pennsylvania, Allegheny County
Airport, places called Metro Air.

And we were a dime a dozen at
the time.

And they did everything they
could to get us to go find students.

And we would fly for sometimes
a week or two at a time, hoping a

student would walk in the door.

And I always wanted that part
of my career, as well as all the

other parts of my career to
mean something.

I wanted to look back at my
CFI days.

It's not, oh, I can't wait to
go to the next step.

But how did I teach?

What did I do?

How did I empower others?

So I ran into a guy.

At.

The Allegheny County Airport.

I saw him every day.

He would roll.

He was a paraplegic.

And he would go to the airport
almost every day, and he would just

watch airplanes.

One day, I just walked up to
him, hey, how you doing?

We started talking, and it
turned out he had gone.

He was registered at Embry Ribble.

He went home to get his stuff
and got into a motorcycle accident

and broke his back.

And he'd been in a wheelchair
ever since.

And I said, man, there's gotta
be a way to get you in an airplane.

He was a super cool guy.

Just.

I just vibed with this guy
right away, and we got a hand control

and we installed that thing.

And everybody at that airport
embraced him, learning how to fly.

And it's because he didn't
have much money.

The owner of the flight school
let him fly for gas.

And this guy ended up with a
commercial instrument license.

And we taught.

Oh, yeah.

Ross Wilson Roscoe, he was.

Guy was a God.

He was so fun to hang around with.

His perspective of the world
still resides with me today.

But we ended up putting
together a program called the Pennsylvania

Wheelchair Pilots.

And I taught more pilots with
disabilities than I did ambulatory

pilots.

And it was my way of.

Okay.

Instructing meant something.

We put together a program, and
it just kind of fell into my lap

because I had an open mind to it.

And it started literally with
me walking up to the fence and talking

to a guy that I saw every day
at the airport as he watched airplanes.

A big corporate field
Allegheny county was at the time.

And it opened the door to this
amazing program.

And I've always looked at it
that way.

Every plane I've ever flown,
I've really tried to enjoy learning

it.

An American I've got.

Well, we've got a total of 10
type ratings now, nine of them in

American.

And a lot of that was just, I
can hold airplane and I'm going to

go learn it.

And these check airmen with
these check pilots, look at me go,

dude, you're just a glutton
for punishment.

I'm like, no, how cool is
airplane is.

I want to learn it.

That's awesome.

And by taking that attitude, I
ended up with a lot of.

Those are my merit badges.

I got to fly all these cool
airplanes and look back at them.

And that's why I think every
part of it, whether it's flying an

airplane you don't necessarily
care for, you can find good parts

of it, and you can find things that.

Where you can build and look
back at it in a very positive manner.

Do you know if that program is
still going on out there?

Have you kept in touch with
that at all?

No.

He passed a couple of years ago.

The.

When I left, it's not that it
fell apart, but there were other.

So there have been other
instructors in other places.

And that hand control, I
think, is a matter of fact.

I'm sure it's still available.

But the glue of it kind of
came apart.

Not that people lost interest,
but I don't think it really maintained

the force that it had or the
propulsion, because once Ross had

his commercial license, he was
out doing other things, too.

Didn't really want to commit
to the flight school.

Right.

And he.

For him, he just wanted to get
in an airplane and go fly it somewhere

new.

Or he.

He really.

He became quite.

Quite the pilot, and he went
all over the place.

Flying.

That's so cool.

That's a great story.

And I really love what you Say
you don't have to do it on that level.

Right.

It's as little as just
personally just enjoying the moment

because I remember there was
this one time I was.

I was Pre flighting my 172 or
my pre flighting my arrow, and I

was super excited to be flying
an arrow that had 200 horsepower.

I was looking at the 172, a
new student going in there.

I was like, he's probably
wishing he was where I was.

And then I'm here wishing
watching a Challenger take off that

I wasn't there.

And it kind of hit me.

I was like, I need to enjoy
where I am right now.

Enjoy this arrow.

Because there's going to come
a point in time where I'm probably

never going to fly small
planes ever again because it's, it's

expensive to get into.

You just find yourself getting busy.

You have a family.

You don't get back into it.

90% of pilots probably don't
fly small airplanes ever again.

Um, so enjoy it while you got
it because the chances are when you're

done with the 172, you're not
going back in a 1 72.

Same thing with an Arrow.

Same thing with a King Air especially.

I mean, I don't know many
people who can afford a King Air.

Right.

So the chances of you flying
those planes or a Duchess aren't

going to be very good.

Yeah, it's true.

That's why I have fun with it.

Absolutely.

Just enjoy the process.

It's a grind, right?

I mean, you definitely have to
grind for it.

Some days are harder than
others, but try to go to the airport

with a smile on your face.

It'll help you out.

And honestly, people notice
that too.

People can pick up on just
happy people or people that love

what they're doing, and it's contagious.

And it can really mean the
difference between either getting

a job or be like, hey, my
buddy is actually looking for a pilot

to sit right seat.

I've noticed your attitude.

I've noticed how hard you're working.

Would you like to do this?

So just going to the airport
with a smile on your face can help

you out a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what I've also noticed is
the people who always kind of look

for that next step when they
get there.

Not every, not every airline
pilot's happy.

They're an airline pilot.

And when you, and I don't say
condition yourself, but when you

show that gratitude or that
appreciation to fly all those airplanes

when you get to an Airline.

The newness for me, I know you
have your days, but I don't want.

There's a part of it that
never wore out.

That wore off.

And this month I go into my
39th year at American, and I'll tell

you what, I still love putting
on my uniform.

I'm not flying right now.

I'm medically out for a bit here.

But I still, you know, when I.

Even when I'm wearing my
uniform to do interviews or cjos

or administrative work, I just
really have such a love for that

and being around the people
who do it.

Another thing to parlay off of
that is that positivity, it can be

contagious.

I was at the mall here in
Kalamazoo years ago, and I walked

by this hot tub store and I
just kind of thought it was cool.

I walked in and the sales rep
started talking to me.

This guy by the name of
Dustin, Lucius and Dustin, good guy,

I could just tell.

But he's kind of looking for
something else to do.

And we got talking about
airplanes and flying and I said,

it's the coolest job.

I love it.

Well, he just got a hold of me
not that long ago.

He just got on the Delta.

Oh, no way.

He took the ball and ran.

Hey, that's so cool.

And that was nothing more than
a conversation that stemmed from

my love for what I do.

So, yeah, I've always been
really happy about my career choice,

and that includes all the
steps along the way to get to where

I am today.

There seems to be a barrier
from the outside looking in of getting

into aviation outside of
money, people think they're not smart

enough.

Like we said earlier, people
think they just can't do it.

It's not in their family, they
throw the military.

But when you realize it's
honestly as simple as just picking

up a phone or just driving to
an airport, you could more than likely

get in a plane same day and go
fly and kind of start the process.

You know it.

Yeah, it's very easy to start it.

Obviously it's hard to make
the money to pay for it.

And there's other barriers,
but, uh, just go do it.

Just go call someone, go do a
Google search.

Flight school is near me.

And you can make it work.

Yeah, take.

Take an intro ride and if you
get air sick, then maybe you want

to do something else.

But there are a lot of ways to
do that.

And it's interesting because
before you mentioned about Part 61

schools, and a lot of people
feel they have to have the discipline

of a Certain type of school.

We don't really look at that
now with us because we have the cadet

academy.

That's something we're very
passionate about because we're shaping

these pilots from their first
hour, and we really like them to

do well, and we support that strongly.

But if it's not something
that's available to you, as you said,

you go to the airport, There
are other things and other ways to

get to that and still achieve
your goal.

There are a lot of different
avenues to achieve the end goal.

Yeah, I mean, I've had.

This is my 324th episode that recorded.

And I mean, there's a handful
of people that have had the same

exact path whether.

Whether.

I mean, everyone kind of has a
general story that can kind of jive

together, but someone is.

Is doing fish spotting and a.

In a champ, like 50 miles off
the coast.

Like someone.

Everyone just has a very
unique part of time building or flying

or perspective.

So I think it's really cool,
just the.

The diversity that comes in
your background when you get in aviation,

and it leads to cool
conversations when you're flying

as well.

I agree.

I agree.

When you go all the way to
Rome or Shanghai or something.

Goals.

One day.

One day, you know what, you kind.

Of find the flying that works
best for you.

Yeah.

There are folks like that.

We've been covering, I believe
the Dallas, Shanghai trip, And that's

about 14 hours of change.

And we take two full crews.

That trip just crushed me.

I mean, sometimes you're up
over the pole and it just feels like

you're never going to land.

And there are people.

It's three on and, you know,
nine off.

Whatever it comes out to.

It's a great trip.

Yeah.

But it just beat me up.

Would take me four or five
days to recover from that.

There are others who like the
kind of the up and down and getting

their hands dirty and in and
out of airports and that.

That could be their thing.

And my sweet spot was like a
Chicago, Barcelona, something like

that.

Try not to whistle as I'm
packing my bag that way.

Yeah.

Like, I.

I know I get home, I'm like,
I'm really tired.

She's like, yeah, right.

Yeah.

I'm sure it was tough going to
Rome, drinking coffee and eating

pasta.

Right.

Yeah.

You kind of find the flying
that works for you.

And obviously that.

That comes with seniority, too.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, definitely.

With my reserve status right
now, I just pick up whatever's left,

but it's all new to me, so I'm
kind of just Enjoying it.

So it all works out like we.

Like we talked about.

Just enjoy the ride, man.

Yeah.

So you're.

You're leaving cfi, you're
starting kind of your career.

Yeah.

You're getting your next job.

What came next for you after cfi?

After.

See, I did that for a little
while, and then I was hired by a

commuter airline, Pennsylvania
Airlines, Allegheny Commuter.

They were out of Harrisburg.

And I flew a shorts 330.

Oh, no way.

Yeah, right.

And talk about that thing was
a boxcar, but it had PT6 engines.

And that thing would whistle
when it started.

I'm like, this is so cool.

There are a lot of jokes.

And I know I keep referencing
the book, but I talk about that.

They called it the Sky Pig and
the Flying Boxcar and all these other

things.

But for me, I was hauling
passengers, I was wearing a uniform,

and I was like 21 years old.

So it may have been 20 when I
started, because I remember thinking,

if I'm on a layover, I can't
have a beer.

I'm not old enough yet.

So working at Pennsylvania
Airlines was great.

State College, Pennsylvania.

And it's all hand flying below 10,000ft.

And after a couple of years, a
lot of people really enjoyed that

flying who were working at
that company.

And I transitioned to Simmons
airlines in late 85, and they had

shorts, and I decided to go
work there for a little bit.

And they were checking out
captains fast.

So right when I turned 23, I
was able to check out as a captain.

And now I'm just really loving
life because Simmons was a fun place

to work.

It was kind of a single crowd,
so everybody was ready to go enjoy

themselves on layovers.

They were younger, and it was
unlike the very more domesticated

crowd at Pennsylvania Airlines.

Simmons was a different story.

And we'd fly Eagle out of
Chicago, but Northwest Airlink out

of Detroit.

And so depending on where you
were, you were flying, you're flying.

And more.

It was a more regional
company, too, so it was a lot of

fun.

It was a good transition.

And then after Simmons, where
did you go after that?

American.

Perfect.

How many hours did you have
when you got hired by American?

I had just north of 3,000.

Yeah.

And that was.

That had a combination of pic
in the shorts.

I didn't have much high
altitude time, just a couple hours

here and there.

But most of it was a little
bit of king air and mu2 stuff.

But my first jet was at American.

That's cool.

I was hired there as a flight
Engineer on the 727 oh, perfect.

That was kind of a good thing.

Was that I said perfect.

Yeah.

Well, that way I could kind of
watch the job.

And it took a year and a half
to go right seat.

After being a flight engineer
there and even getting on at American

back, that was just post deregulation.

So a lot of companies are
going out of business.

There was People Express and
Eastern and Pan Am.

And so the job market was
fairly flooded.

And American, especially back
then, they would go through a lot

of applicants.

They pretty much called
anybody in.

And even when they called me,
I'm like, okay, this isn't, this

isn't gonna really.

I was too tall.

That was the other thing.

You had to be no taller than
six four.

And I'm six five.

Oh, really slouched.

Yeah.

Like I'm.

Yeah.

So where luckily it was three interviews.

Two of them were two days long.

It was intensely physical.

They gave us what was called
the astronaut physical.

And somehow I got through all
that and got a job.

Just after my 24th birthday, I
started American and it was, I was

just so happy to think that
I'd made this many steps and luckily

a fairly short time.

Let's take a break from
today's episode to hear from our

sponsor, RAA Justin here.

Whoever said what you don't
know can't hurt you clearly wasn't

a pilot.

In fact, what you don't know
can set your financial future way

off course.

The team at RAA Allworth
Airline Advisors has identified seven

key facts to help you take
advantage of planning opportunities

most other pilots miss out on.

From tax smart deductions to
funding, healthcare and retirement,

these insights can safeguard
your financial future.

Get in touch with an airline
specialized advisor today.

Visit RAA.com Pilotopilot
that's RAA.com Pilotopilot and now

back to today's episode.

As someone who is very
involved in the hiring process right

now, to look back on what you
had to go through, what do you compare?

Do you wish it was more like
it was right now?

Just the differences in time
and the astronaut physical.

The two days of interviews,
probably extremely technical as well.

Talk a little bit about the
differences and just maybe why it's

different.

Well, let me think on that physically.

So let's take the physical
aspect of it.

You need a first class physical.

I'm still a big proponent, a
big advocate of health and fitness.

So you are responsible for
your own fitness.

And it's a good idea in the
first place to create those foundations

of fitness, health and fitness
earlier on in life at American they

don't do that anymore.

First class medical is all you need.

But it's a really good idea to
be healthy anyway.

And obviously we can follow,
fall off the wagon a little bit.

You don't have to have an
extreme discipline in that, but taking

care of yourself.

You just feel better and you
think better.

And it's a good thing to
create foundationally.

Technically, I came from six
pack and we learned to scan, we hand

flew, we didn't have autopilots.

And even flying the
Dreamliner, what I've always noticed

is I love hand flying that airplane.

To have good skills, it's a
great idea not to just push buttons

too much.

Now obviously if you're
fatigued or there are other reasons

that you want to use
automation, great.

But we had no automation back
then, so we couldn't use it.

And I think that also creates
great foundations.

So to those who are learning
to fly, even if you have automation

available, learn the
automation, but also learn not to

have automation because it
makes you a better pilot.

And where I'll fly with
somebody who it's V1 rotate, gear

up, autopilot like okay, and that's.

And they'll click it off at a
thousand feet coming in and crush

the landing like, dude, fly
the airplane a little bit.

I hand fly up to almost
20,000ft and before I turn the autopilot

on and then it's begrudgingly
because I'm like, oh man, this is

cool flying this thing.

And then depending on, I would
say fatigue level, when you're flying

Europe or somewhere far in the
airplane, it's a good idea to use

that automation because it's
safety related.

But if you're feeling fresh
and you're just doing a couple of

domestic legs in the airplane,
fly that thing.

And if you get to the point to
where other things are making it

more difficult, for instance,
if you're in a high and a saturated

air traffic environment,
obviously use automation.

I'm not trying to discourage
that because automation has created

a lot of safety, but when
you're able to to reduce that automation,

it's a great idea to do it and
just keep your hands on the airplane.

So comparatively, we had no
choice back then.

Now automation is available.

But it's a good idea to today
choose to take away that automation

when possible.

Yeah, I mean there's that
famous American Airlines kind of

training video.

I think it's going around,
it's been around on YouTube where

I can't remember who it is,
but he's sitting in front of like

A recurrent problem.

He's like, hey, when things go
wrong, sometimes it's best to knock

off that automation and just
focus on fly the airplane.

Right.

Uh, so same thing.

Yeah, yeah.

You're a pilot.

You can fly an airplane.

These are still airplanes, right?

And I'm sure people be.

It's amazed at how.

How these airplanes operate,
how they fly.

It's like they fly well, right.

It's not like you're flying a tank.

So it's probably fun to fly.

Especially when you get to the
78 and you think about how big that

airplane is.

The wing, the engines, everything.

You know, you're just flying
up there smiling.

Oh, and I am.

Every time I've ever taken
off, I had a big smile on my face.

And you'll notice how
different airplanes have different

personalities to them.

The 7 8, I believe, emulates
757 controls.

But you can never duplicate a 757.

That thing's just so cool.

Oh, my gosh, that thing's a
Ferrari with wings.

There are other airplanes that
are just gentle and predictable.

And really a triple seven is
the nicest airplane from a standpoint

of just being a nice, big,
happy, predictable airplane.

It doesn't bite you the way
otherwise can.

It's just a wonderful airplane
to land, to fly.

It feels so good flying it in
your hands.

Other airplanes aren't like that.

The 727 was a solid airplane,
but that thing could.

It could hit you every once in
a while.

I mean, you.

You'd make all these great landings.

All of a sudden you crush one
and be like, what did they do?

I did.

You know, same flare up 20
times in a row, and all of a sudden

you're like, prang it.

Yeah.

And you would.

You'd had three rear engines,
so sometimes you'd have to deal with

compressor stalls and that
number two center engine.

Especially with like crosswind take.

There were always things that
you had to consider depending on

what airplane you were flying.

Even today, you have the 737
Max, where crosswinds become an issue

because you can't really lean
that wing over the way you put in

other airplanes.

So by flying different
airplanes, you learn their nuances

and really get to enjoy.

I know people are always,
well, is this plane better than that

one?

There are planes we like
better than others, but if it flies,

it's cool.

I've enjoyed every airplane
I've ever flown, and I've flown a

few squirrely ones.

That's part of the process of
building your time, though.

You always Got to fly a couple
squirrely airplanes.

That put some hair in your
chest, right?

Yeah.

Oh, the MU2.

Yeah.

That's a skateboard with three
wheels, man.

That thing was just.

I, I, you know, I've heard
that the people that really understand

how that airplane works and
how it can bite you.

I heard that a lot of people
do actually like that airplane.

But if you don't understand
how everything works, that thing

will.

Will put you down in a heartbeat.

Is not forgiving at all.

No, it doesn't give you break.

And it's loud, but it's fast.

And it was a cool airplane,
too, but like that, you really had

to tend to that airplane.

You couldn't look the other
way because it'll.

It could do something to you
if you're not careful.

It was temperamental.

Yeah.

It definitely has a record.

Not necessarily the best
record, you know, but I've met a

lot of people that enjoy
flying it, so don't be afraid of

it.

Oh, I, I did too.

I did.

But I just remember it was a
bit more of a challenge.

What was your favorite.

What would you.

What would you say your
favorite airliner you've ever flown

was?

I.

I know you noticed.

You said the 72 was fun.

You also mentioned your love
for the 7 5.

You also talked about the
Triple 7.

So it sounds like there's a
lot that are kind of in the top tier,

but if you had to choose one,
what would be your favorite?

Well, I would say the 757 with
Rolls Royce Angels.

Okay.

It was so everything about it
was cool.

It looked cool, it flew cool,
it sounded cool.

You could go into.

I remember going to somewhere
like Santa Ana, Orange County, John

Wayne Airport, and you pretty
much pick your brick, and it would

land on it and would land nicely.

And I had those eight big
brakes back there.

It would stop taking off out
of there.

You push the throttles up, and
it was just roaring and ready to

go.

That you could cut an engine
on takeoff of that thing and barely

knew it.

It was just going to keep climbing.

And the missions that an
airplane could fly, also, you going

in and out of La Paz, Bolivia,
or it would carry more and do more

than any airplane I think
we've ever had.

It was just unmatched in performance.

And it had enough of a
combination to where you still kind

of flew a six pack with a
little bit of EFIs, but it had enough

of the newer technology that
say that the 727 didn't have to.

Where you could also, you
could kind of let it do its own thing

too, when you needed to.

Yep.

Yeah, it sounds like a great airplane.

I wish they're still around,
obviously, because my dad was a pilot

as well.

He flew.

He retired American two years ago.

He was Piedmont USAir, US Airways.

Kind of made his whole way up
there, but he was timing a 7:2 and

a 7:5.

And those are his two favorite
airplanes, planes he said he's ever

flown.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

And like I said, I.

I've liked them all, but that
one definitely stands out.

What, what got you involved in
pilot hiring?

Has it always been kind of a
passion of yours to help give back,

or was it just something
someone came up to you one day, was

like, you'd be good at this.

Let's do this.

Well, I spent 25 years with
the union doing pilot professional

standards.

Oh, cool.

So I had to deal with a lot of
people we shouldn't have hired, and

now I wanted to deal with the
people we should.

That's awesome.

So that was kind of a turning
point for me because I really, truly

enjoyed doing my pilot
assistance work.

So pro standards wasn't all bad.

You'd have some that you're
like, okay, folks you wouldn't want

to deal with, but you could
also make a difference.

Professional standards with
our union is, I think it's really

been the industry standard.

They do so many good things to
help people, but obviously you're

dealing with a lot of
different elements at the same time.

So in that, like, I don't want
to paint it as a bad picture, but

we did have you kind of run
into some of the more difficult people

in that organization, also in
that committee.

So years ago, I thought it
would be cool just to see who I'm

handing my job to.

And as an interviewer, having
done this for so many years, it meant

a lot to me to say, okay, I'm
getting older now.

I'm 62 now, and I've only got
a few years left.

And this was actually several
years ago.

So it was in my late 50s.

And I thought, I want to
involve myself in who I passed the

torch to.

And you remember my CJO speech
incorporated that, where I talked

about these pilots from 1935?

Yeah, you did.

You pointed right to them.

Right by the wall.

Yeah, yeah.

Did I give you CJ over there
by the.

Oh, really?

Because, yeah, you.

You met.

You met us before, like, early
on in the interview, gave us a big

speech in the museum and then
over in the back room by the 7 6.

I think it is that's up there
over there.

That's where we got our cjs.

Yeah, that's kind of the secret.

So everybody knows that
they're in there.

They pretty much think they're
getting C.J.

we'll switch it up every once
in a while and bring it somewhere

else.

Yeah.

And they're gonna, well, okay,
you'll be hearing from us.

And it said, it's a cjo, you.

Gotta have some fun with it.

Right, Right.

Yeah.

And so there is.

There's a picture in there in
the museum, the C.R.

smith Museum there that's very
near and dear to me.

And it was taken in 1935.

It's of 10 pilots and there's
a Curtis Condor behind them.

And I go and I look at that
picture anytime I'm about to interview

pilots.

And because these were
forefathers, some of these guys got

hired in the 20s, like I said,
I was mentioning that in my little

CJO speech, that this is our legacy.

And these guys created this
almost 100 years ago.

They were hired not knowing
this would one day be the biggest

airline on the planet Earth.

And I, as a steward of my
profession, have always wanted to

pass my job along to somebody
who has that same passion for it.

And I don't know if I'm
parlaying a little bit or if we're

going to get into it, but
there are things that I truly look

for when I interview pilots.

And it goes beyond the flying
of the airplane.

A lot of that is the passion
of what we have, what we represent,

how people view us, and what
I'm passing along to the next generation.

I was going to ask.

We are kind of going to get
into that as well.

Obviously we have you here,
someone that's involved with hiring,

that has a passion for hiring.

It's a very hot topic.

And people always want to
know, like, what can I do to stand

out?

What can I do to get the job?

What can I do?

Or what is something that is
almost an immediate no, thank you,

apply again in six months.

So if you have any tidbits or
anything that really to focus on,

let's say into the interview
or that process.

Yeah.

So we have kind of a rating
during the interview that we look

at candidate.

And in teaching our
interviewers, one of the most important

things that we look at is a
well rounded person, that he or she

is somebody who we can truly
say, this is going to be a great

employee for our company.

And we don't have that much
time to evaluate that.

So there are a lot of
Necessary tools there.

Personally, I have three
really big things I look for, the

first of which is, is this a
person who can technically fly the

airplane?

Is it somebody I can sit next
to, somebody who will gel well on

the flight deck and who can
safely fly the airplane and truly

be a professional in their job
as a pilot?

And that's a big one.

But there are two other ones
that once I know this is a capable

pilot, because there are
plenty of people who will go and

they get their license, they
get their ratings, they can fly airplanes,

but they don't do well with people.

They're just kind of.

There's something missing there.

And that, to me, can even be a
dangerous thing, because you want

to know that that person next
to you is somebody you can rely upon.

The number two thing I call
inside of the wingspan.

How are they with the flight attendants?

How are they with the passengers?

How are they with taking care of.

We had some turbulence.

What are they doing to
accommodate everybody else?

What about maintenance issues,
things like that?

To where inside the wingspan?

And have they accommodated all
of those nuances to where everybody

knows that they're all
involved and they're all an asset

and that they all feel welcome
to create a safe environment and

a positive environment.

I always go back, I say hello
to everybody.

I want these people to know
that I'm their advocate and that

I really want everybody to
have a good time and have safe aircraft.

So that can go on.

And you can kind of find that
out quickly when.

If you're asking an interview
question and somebody seems at times,

believe it or not, a little
bit condescending, or if they just.

Well, I focus on the airplane
and that's it.

It's like, no, no, you need to.

Your role goes outside of that
as a pilot.

And the third is what I call
outside of the wingspan, to truly

be somebody.

And I know not everybody's
like this, but I have always been

an absolute ambassador of my occupation.

And you can measure that.

It's not like you're going to,
hey, the old saying about, how do

you know someone's a pilot?

They'll tell you in the first
five minutes.

It's not always like that.

But I really enjoy hiring the
type of pilot that if they're in

the terminal and they see a
little old lady that seems like she

doesn't know where she's
going, or a person who's a little

bit duress or whatever,
whatever, to approach that person,

because we as pilots are an
occupation that others look up to.

And to be outside of the
wingspan also, how do you do it?

With ticket agents, with
maintenance, with dispatch, with

ground people, all of them.

Are you somebody who embraces.

And it's amazing how even on
the ground where somebody once pointed

something.

I forgot exactly what it was,
but pointed something out on the

airplane that was very
pertinent, that he just sees these

airplanes push back every day
and goes, hey, is that okay over

there?

And I forgot what it was.

But it was a very relevant matter.

And by being a person who
welcomes that and says hello to other.

I mean, it's like I got a
couple of Jeep wranglers, right?

Whenever I cruise down the
street, we got the Jeep wave.

Yeah.

You know, we're jeeple.

But what I notice is in the
terminal, I will say hi to other

pilots.

Yeah, maybe that makes me a nerd.

But hey, there are other
pilots, you know, that we have, we

have that in common.

And so maybe I go outside of
that a little bit more than most

people do.

But for me, that role means a lot.

And it means a great deal to
me to, to portray that.

And I use the word advocate a
lot, but to advocate that within

the public, outside of the.

Yeah, I mean, you can
definitely tell that too.

And one thing I'll give you
credit for is putting us at ease

when we're in that moment too.

Like, you know, it can be a
very stressful situation for a lot

of people.

This is everything you've ever
worked for.

You see your dreams right in
front of you and there is the chance

that, you know, you get
thanks, but no thanks or thanks apply

in 6 months or, you know, and
that's not to say it's not going

to happen or it's not the same
airline won't hire you immediately.

It's just how it shapes out in
that situation.

But it was very much a put at
ease situation.

And kind of like a deep breath
and like, all right, this feels like

a good place.

I feel very like, I feel
welcomed, you know, and it was very

cool to see that.

And I think it's very important.

And the type of person you're
talking about hiring, I mean, I've

seen it with flying and it's
important you deal with so many personalities

as a pilot and you never know
who's having a bad day and being

able to manage those
personalities and being able to manage

people and realize, you know,
all right, well, let's try to put

a smile on people's faces and
maybe let's try to calm the situation

down or talk to the gate
agent, talk to the ramp or talk to

the ground.

Screw all that kind of stuff.

And it's as simple as just
saying hi and just being a person,

you know, and that can really
change the day and make it more personal.

Yeah, it's true.

And we look for that.

And when it comes to our
interview process, I love that it

happens right in front of a DC3.

It's a beautiful area.

And we truly want the people
who we interview to feel like they've

been embraced and regarded and heard.

One of the things we always
say is, hey, when we introduce ourselves,

you'll notice we made it
pretty brief.

Why?

Because it's not about us,
it's about you.

It's your time.

Tell us about yourself and
have a nice organic conversation.

When it comes to.

When it comes to getting hired
or not hired, not getting hired or

having to reply in 6 months
isn't a bad thing.

Sometimes it's great because
we feel the candidate is just not

quite ready.

Then they'd have trouble in
training, maybe trouble getting through

oe.

And it's by no means a dig on
that candidate.

The way that I always compare
it is it's kind of like when you're

baking a cake, you throw it in
the oven.

Oven.

It might not be ready quite yet.

It's just got to cook a little longer.

All the ingredients are there,
but it's.

The cake isn't quite ready yet.

And we have.

We're pretty strong about that
if we believe that.

And a lot of times we'll just
say, okay, just a little bit more.

We just need.

And we'll notice that in
certain ways, sometimes it'll be

technical knowledge where we
think they.

We'd like to see them just
gain a little bit more before they

come to us.

Yep.

And one thing I felt, I don't
know if you agree with or if this

is how you kind of is a big
part of it is having good, clean

logbooks that kind of felt
like it was a big thing as well.

Just seeing the different
logbooks that I saw in the people

that got cgos.

They seem to be the people
that really kind of put a lot of

attention into the small
details in their logbook to make

sure it was presented well bound.

Whatever it is, it seemed to
help out a lot.

Yeah, well, it does.

It shows that you're taking.

We look for a lot of things
with the log books.

The I've seen applicants with
20,000 or claim to have 20,000 hours

and not one logbook and said
to me, well, just call this employer.

They'll tell you, I work
there, and that's why.

That's my time right there.

Yeah.

Okay.

Others who literally logged everything.

Original logs.

The reason we like those so
much is because we're able to look

back and find the 6149s.

If there are failed events, if
there, we can kind of see where the

continuity of that is.

And not everybody's logbooks
are great.

And if they don't have that,
you're able to get an 8710 from the

FAA, and we can fill that in.

But one thing we have run into
far too much are when somebody says

they've never failed a
training vendor, a checkride, and

we'll go into the log books
and we'll find four, five of them.

Like, you're like.

And then when you.

When you ask them about it,
like, hey, what?

You know, it says a little
different here than what your app

says.

Oh, I forgot about that.

Like, right.

No pilot forgets about a
failed check ride that lives with

you for the rest of your life.

Right.

I even remember bad check rides.

I mean, we're like, oh, you
got on a crowd.

You're like, oh, my gosh, I
can't believe it passed me.

Yeah.

And that's.

We're talking 40 years back.

Yeah.

Where you had a couple where
you're like, oh, man, am I glad I

got through that one.

To say that the burden of
having failed a checkride.

I know today especially,
pilots are worried about, well, how

many failed checkrides are too many.

I've seen it all over the place.

It depends on when those
checkride failures were, what you

learned.

How.

When somebody says to me, hey,
I failed to write, but it's completely

the examiner's fault.

It wasn't me.

Like, okay, it's a red flag.

Because I want to say, even if
you have an overzealous examiner,

we've seen that, too.

What did you learn from it?

How did you prepare the next time?

What did you do?

How did you move forward from
that experience?

And when you see somebody who
talks about their learning and that,

they embrace that and they
embrace their failures.

You know, being a football
player and us having an athletic

background, you learn.

You learn from your mistakes.

You learn from losing.

If you win all the time, it's
not a benefit.

You have to be able to lose
with your face up and win with your

head down.

I guess to be able to handle.

Both and facing failure and
facing a loss or anything.

I think it's very commendable
to see how you respond, you're going

to have adversity in your life
at, at some point, things are not

going to be perfect.

Whether you had a perfect record.

Now there's me a day when the
deck is stacked against you and you

have to perform in a very bad
situation, essentially.

And seeing that you have had a
failure in the past, I'm not saying

it can help you, but being
able to explain it, take responsibility

for it, and be truthful, it
can show how you handle adversity.

You can come back from
failure, you can put it together

and you can get it done.

And I'm sure that's something
that you don't hold against them

if they're.

They're honest with you and
they fully explain what happens.

Yeah, exactly.

As a matter of fact, the
humility of that, if anything, is

a benefit to say, okay, you
know, I'm not perfect.

However, this is what I strive
for and this is why I try to be better.

And there are some cases where
you really.

You'll throw.

Because we pretty much know
everything that's gone on.

There have been people who
have had incidents and accidents,

things like that, who are
like, hey, you're not off the table

here.

Just, we'll put some questions
out there that kind of open the door

to that and they'll go a
different direction with it.

And like, well, we're kind of
hoping you'd talk about this.

And we want to see the human
side of people because that's important

to us, that we're hiring
people who throughout their careers

will want to continually be on
a path of learning.

Yeah.

Which I think is huge.

And you're gonna be a busy,
busy guy here soon because all that's

starting to pick right back up
and getting after it.

So if you're listening to
this, make sure if you ever see Tom,

be like, hey, I heard you on
the pilot's pilot podcast, but it's

really cool.

And like I said, I felt like I
was at ease when I was there.

My two interviewers are great.

Put me at ease.

I mean, the first thing to say
is like, you're here for a reason.

Right?

We saw something we like.

It's essentially just.

Just talk to us and just be.

Be yourself.

That's what we want to see.

I mean, my, my short
experience in, in flying, it's a

lot comes down to personality
and can I be in this airplane with

this person for 16 hours?

Going to Shanghai, you know,
are we going to get out wanting to.

To report each other pro standards.

Are we going to get out
wanting to go get some dinner and

enjoy a different culture.

So a lot of it I feel like
comes down to that.

And I'm sure you would agree
as well.

I do.

I do.

And you meet.

I've made some amazing
friendships, not just at American,

but within the industry, just
as I've often said, I said in my

last post is that we're
kindred spirits.

Anything we're distracted
from, anything from hummingbirds

to helicopters and if it
flies, we say squirrel, what are

we talking about?

And to have that connection
with other pilots has made for some

wonderful friendships.

It truly has made life worthwhile.

After my medical event a
couple of years ago, I've just the

support that I got from the
people I cared about meant so much.

Absolutely.

And we'll kind of end.

We're going to talk about the
book here in a second and kind of

end off on, you know, American
has been such a big part of your

career.

It really seems like it's a
company you love.

It's, it's been a great 39 years.

You say that you've been there
as a pilot now that maybe it's changing

a little bit, but the choices
are out there.

Right.

We've seen people go from,
from one major to another.

They have options, which has
not always been the case.

As someone that is is talking
for American and just your personal

experience, why would you
recommend American just in what you've

experienced?

There are the most important thing.

A part of your job isn't your
job, it's the family you go home

to.

So.

But we often will see, for
instance, a Delta pilot who lives

in Fort Worth, Texas, that
doesn't want to commute to Atlanta

or whatever.

So we hire them and we've lost
pilots, Delta who live in Atlanta

or whatever.

So when it comes to the big
three, they're all solid.

They're all really good guys
and ladies and they're just.

I can't be one of those.

Oh, we're number one.

Because these.

I think they're all really
solid organizations, the legacy carriers

and even the discounts.

My gosh, I go to these pilot
conferences and we just yuck it up

with the spirit guys and the.

I mean, they're all a really
good bunch.

Yeah.

So why American?

It has been, it's been a
wonderful company for me and I can't

speak for the management of
other airlines or the unions of alpa.

But, but first of all, allied
pilots, they are true.

They really are proponents.

They're really, they have
created so many different committees

to embrace so many facets of a
person's life.

They're really proactive in
being there for the pilots.

We see them at all the conferences.

And I'm quick to say, hey, I
may be on the hiring side here, but

our union is absolutely wonderful.

And to see that kind of
strength standing behind us has really

made a big difference.

Even our aeromedical people
are just unbelievably good folks.

Safety Aliyah.

They're people I've always
truly been able to trust.

On the American side of it, they.

Years ago, when I got hired,
there was a little more of an adversarial

relationship with management
and a guy by the name Mark Cronin,

who is our believe our east
area, like line.

I think he was just below the vvp.

The director of Line Ops East,
I believe, came up with a new concept

where he said, I want the
chief pilots to be there for the

pilots.

And he said, I will not have a
chief pilot who does not advocate

for a pilot.

And he hired.

He started hiring chief
pilots, coachable and personable

and compassionate.

And that made such a huge
difference to me because even at

the time, working at
professional standards, to be able

to talk to these guys who we
truly shared that regard for.

The pilot group, for me,
created a cohesion that made.

That set things apart that were.

If a pilot was having a tough
time, he called the union, but he

could also call his chief pilot.

And when I had my medical
event a couple years ago, the embrace

that I got from the management
side, I don't know if I'd have got

any United Delta.

I hope that I would.

But they literally called me
every day, the area director of flight.

They wanted to make sure I was okay.

And it meant it was like a
soft landing to a very difficult

event.

And it meant the world to me
to see that the American Airlines

side of things was just so supportive.

Supportive of me, definitely.

And I love that.

And we're getting into that
right now.

So I got the book we talked
about a little bit before we started

this Is it Flying and Dying.

I got it off Amazon.

I mean, the title just jumps
right off to you.

It's.

Yeah, I know it's going to be impactful.

We talked a lot about flying.

So if you want to focus on the
other part, about the dying part,

and kind of talk about where
it came from and how what happened.

Yeah, I had something very
unexpected happening two years ago,

and I haven't posted about it.

I haven't really talked about
it other than friends at the airline

know about It.

I've been a health and fitness
advocate my whole life, as it fit

to fly.

It started actually as kind of
a fitness page and it transitioned

into more of an aviation thing.

But I had my whole life, never
had any issues with anything.

Didn't really ever get sick.

I always felt great.

And one night I was down in my.

We have a sauna in the house here.

And I really like the hot.

The cold transition to where I
will just kind of cook in the sauna

for a while and I'll jump into
the ice bath or like into a cold

shower and feels amazing.

I go and I fall asleep.

Well, one night I did that
November 4th of a couple years back.

And when I got in a cold
shower, it kind of didn't feel quite

right.

And I hit the shut off and I
went upstairs and I laid down next

to my sweetie and she said,
you want me to turn the light off?

I'm like, nah, give me a second.

And I went.

And I went into ventral
ventricular fibrillation and cardiac

arrest.

My heart stopped.

And just to let you know,
cardiac arrest is not a heart attack.

Heart attacks are when you
have a blockage to the heart.

It continues to pump, kind of
like a fuel pump.

It's lost a little bit of the
fuel coming to it.

Can't pump stuff.

Well, a cardiac arrest is like
pulling the cables off of that fuel

pump.

Your heart stops.

And I turned blue and my eyes
rolled back and I went out almost

immediately.

I remember a quick gasp in my
chest and that was it.

And at that point, Desiree
loved my life.

She started.

She jumped on me, she shook
me, tried to see what was up, started

CPR, called 911.

My son, who hadn't been home
in months from college, came home.

He also was certified in cpr.

He came up and gave.

Here's this, you know, this 22
year old kid who sees his dad dying

and turned blue.

And he's giving me mouth to
mouth resuscitation.

He's on me.

He's.

I'm just, you know, I'm laying
back and he went outside of himself,

as did Desiree, who was just
working so hard on me just to try

and give me compressions to.

The two of them did such a
wonderful job.

About 10 minutes later, my
friend Clay Hollister comes through

the front door, who happened
to be the head medic at Porta gms.

As he's carrying a defib, he
said, is it Tom?

And one of the things medics
don't like is having to ever go to

a friend or a relative's
house, and he ran upstairs, and they

hooked me up.

And just after 10 minutes, I
got my first shock.

I went about 2, 3, 4 shocks in
there somewhere, and then I just

became unshockable.

My.

There was nothing there anymore.

Very fortunately, I got a shot
of lidocaine.

At that point, I had a little
bit of a tremble in my heart.

And after seven shocks, I came
back to life.

So I was without a pulse for
about 20 minutes.

Needless to say, that kind of
altered my flying career a little

bit, and it was a rough night.

The odds of coming back after
an event like that are very low.

Out of hospital, cardiac
arrest has a very high mortality

rate, and the chance of brain
damage, of cognitive impairment or

even physical impairment is
also very high.

Cardiac arrest.

So at that point, I woke up
several hours later in the hospital,

and I'm like, what, though?

And Des was standing over to me.

She said, your heart stopped.

We almost lost you.

And then one of the first
things I thought is, there goes my

career.

But.

And that's where a lot of my
healing had to begin, is to say,

okay, well, I've done this for
a long, long time, and how do I transition

from what I am now to what.

How I still want to fulfill a
legacy that I've been handed?

And every morning, I would go
have a little area here we call the

Zen den.

It overlooks our lake.

And I would just start to
write, and I would hang those words

out in front of me.

And we're familiar as pilots
at something called the 36 inch rule,

or if you kind of take a step
back from something, you look at

it, you have a better way of
processing it.

And every morning, I would.

I would just write, and I must
have written 75, 80,000 words or

more.

And there was a healing in
that and being able to say, okay,

this is where I'm in.

Where's my egoic attachment to say?

It's so.

It's so fun to say, hey, I'm
captain Tom, and I'm, you know, dreamliner

and Instagram and all that, whatever.

And what I really realized and
all that is that you could love your

job, but it can't love you back.

You can love flying, but it
can't love you back.

And that's why one of the
things I said earlier was the most

important part of your job is
the family you come home to.

We love flying, but our
families are so much more important

because they not only we love,
but love us back.

And they create the True solid
foundation of who we are and what

we are.

And they were all there,
friends and family and the people

I cared about.

So it was, at that point, a
matter of trying to rebuild things.

And the book talks a lot about
all the crazy antics of the stuff

I did earlier on my career,
stuff we got into and some of the

pro standards things.

It also talks about pilot
mental health and how important that

is.

And I'd say almost as
important as a pilot reading that

would be a pilot's spouse or
significant other, because it addresses

a lot of what pilots go
through, from the subtleties of our

schedules to significant
events like what happened to me and

how I went from 10ft tall and
bulletproof to, gosh, what's the

next step?

Luckily, I had a huge amount
of sick time.

And I'm still burning through
it now, slowly but surely, and unable

to kind of transition out a
little bit more on my own terms,

which has been very beneficial.

And then the other thing that
happened, and I address it in the

book, is.

And I've never really paid
enough, I guess, regard to this,

but I had a magnificent
afterlife experience.

I remember going out of my
body and that still.

I mean, every time I talk
about it, I get chills.

It's not a dream or hallucination.

There is still.

There's.

It is magnificent what awaits us.

And I was sent back from that
and that.

It also details that in flying
and dying.

When I wrote the book, one of
the most important things was everything

I had thought of that was
going through my mind, I wanted to

put down.

So it wasn't like I went from
chapter one to chapter 34.

I think the first chapter I
wrote was 20 or 21.

And then I wrote the chapters
and here and there.

And then all of a sudden, as
my brain was reattaching all these.

Who know, I don't know how it
works neurologically, but I would

think of stuff that I did in
my 20s, like, oh, I gotta write about

that.

And it would come to me in
this incredible detail.

I mean, you know, we almost
got crunched by the Duke lacrosse

team on a layover one night,
Meanest Guy apart.

It talks about some really
interesting stuff.

Yeah, that was an interesting story.

Just stuff that happens.

I mean, there are a lot of
stories like that where you're like,

oh, my gosh, I remember when
that happened.

I wrote about it, and the
intention was not for it to turn

into a book, but once I had
all of that and I cut a bunch of

the stuff that I didn't Think
mattered out.

It turned into a timeline of
everything I'd done from the time

I was a flight instructor to
present day.

And there was continuity there.

And in writing that, and
really putting my heart and my emotion

and not just telling the
stories, but describing everything

that was going on was so
healing for me.

I had not even planned to
release this as a book.

And a couple of friends read
it and said, tom, you need to put

this out here.

This is gonna, this will help
people who are dealing with things.

And that propelled.

It caused me to say, okay,
let's put it out there.

Because anytime you write a
book or anything like that, even

you know how it is, you do an
Instagram post, if it gets a million

views, you're going to have a
bunch of people, doesn't matter how

positive it is, they're going
to say something negative.

And I'm like, do I really want
to expose myself to people who are

going to say mean things?

I mean, what do I.

I don't know if I really want that.

But what I realized about that
book is that it will help people.

And even if it helps just one
person, it was worth putting out

there.

And so far the reviews on it
have been very positive.

I've been really flattered by
what people have said about it and

that it seems to make sense to
people, which is very important to

me.

Yeah.

And I mean, going back to the
pandemic when people were faced with

losing their jobs, there's a
big identity crisis for pilots.

And kind of what you're
explaining is you realize that flying

is not going to love you back.

Like, it's about your family,
it's about your personal life.

And so many pilots find
themselves wrapped up in the thought

that they are a pilot.

So having the ability to write
something that kind of can help people

realize, like, hey, like, this
is your profession, this isn't who

you are, this is a job that
you have.

It's a duty you can do and it
has a big part of you.

But like, you need to make
sure you appreciate the grind we

talked about earlier.

Your wife, your kids, just
life, just day to day situations,

talking here, talking to people.

So it sounds like you, you
kind of have a story to tell.

And I'm glad that you wrote
that book because I'm sure it's going

to help a lot of people
realize that.

I do.

And I, and I really enjoyed it.

I narrated it too.

I turned it into an audio.

Perfect.

That was fun.

Because I get this really bad
habit of imitating people once I

know Somebody for a little
while, I kind of learn their mannerisms

a little more.

And all of a sudden I'm like,
and I don't mean to mock people when

I do it, but it's kind of fun.

And so with the book, I was
able to do a lot of different characters

and voices in it, too.

And rather than have somebody
else narrate it, I bought a mic.

I built a studio inside of one
of my walking closets in the house,

and I soundproofed it and everything.

I did the whole.

I narrated the whole book.

Took me a long time to do it
because I'd go through a chapter

and go, ah, that one doesn't
really have the energy.

I, I'm going to redo it.

And it became another really
fun project as I was reading that

book to, to.

To.

To turn it into an audio book.

Absolutely.

I mean, what a story.

Like, you think about your,
your 65.

You know, your career up to
age 65, where you have to say bye

to aviation.

You don't ever.

You don't think about how many
pilots actually leave on medical

before that.

I don't know the exact statistic.

You might, since you kind of
went through that, but there's a

lot of people that don't make
it to 65.

Health reasons, medical reasons.

You're not guaranteed to fly
till 65.

It's just, you might think you
are, but.

And you might think you're bulletproof.

As someone that took their
health very seriously, which I, I

have to say, had to have
helped you out in this situation,

I believe the story would have
been way different if you wouldn't

have paid attention to your
health and kind of neglected it for

your whole life.

So, I mean, I'm glad you did.

I'm glad we're having this
conversation right now.

Yeah.

So if anyone's listening is,
take that, take that from that as

well.

As a pilot, it's very easy to
fall into the.

I'm tired, I'm on a layover, I
work hard.

Or even just the, the.

I eat greasy food, I have a
beer or two every single night.

That's not a good lifestyle to have.

We have to find a way to stay active.

You sit down in a plane for
eight hours a day, you sit down in

the hotel.

You really got to find a way
to, to stay healthy and make it a

priority.

And like you said, you know,
you go ups and downs.

You know, don't get, don't
beat yourself up too much when you're

in a down slope and you're
Eating pizza every single night and

then enjoy the time where
you're enjoying a salad and eating

healthy foods.

I agree.

Yeah, I agree.

But Tommy, I, I really
appreciate you coming on and talking

about this.

I, I, I got this yesterday
when I got back from a trip and I

can't wait to read it.

I think it's going to be a
great story and I hope everyone takes

a lot out of this.

It's, I mean, you offer a lot
of great information about American.

You're in a very unique
situation where you see every pilot

that essentially is going to
come through these doors and, and

represent the brand and carry
on the legacy as you will talk to

when they go through it.

So it's really awesome.

The other thing about the book
too is it's giving me an opportunity

to give back.

The portions of the proceeds
are going to go to sudden cardiac

arrest survivors, American
Heart association, and to buy AEDs

in public places.

I did a post the other day.

The AED in my gym has saved
two lives already.

And to think that, and kind of
an interesting fact, 356,000 people

die every year of sudden
cardiac arrest.

And a lot of it is 10.

You go down 10% in probability
of surviving every minute that you

have to wait for an aed.

And so if there's an AED
hanging on the wall there, you've

got it and you get that thing
hooked up.

First minute after cardiac
arrest, that person has a 90% chance

of survival, whereas if it's
after 10 minutes, they have a 10%

chance of survival.

So I'm using, I'm using these,
a lot of the funds to finance it.

If I go somewhere, a gym or
something, and there's no AED there,

I'm going to buy them one
because it's my way of kind of giving

back to what?

Yeah, so I mean, you said
you're without AED for 10 minutes.

So what, you're looking at a
10% chance.

The odds are stacked against you.

Yeah, yeah.

I think after 10 minutes it
was without CPR, it's a 98% mortality.

So 2%.

I believe the numbers.

If you have CPR, it increases
that without CPR.

Yeah.

You're about 1 in 50.

So it depends.

The numbers have, the new
numbers that I saw are a little bit

more.

And that's the big thing.

Learn CPR too.

Yeah, they were, the last ones
I saw were 98 when I published the

book.

But I saw some stuff recently
that says you can double or triple

your channel chances of
survival with cpr and if you don't

know it, just start pumping on
a chest and about 120 beats a minute

or so, like the song Staying
Alive is the cadence you want to

use on someone's chest because
a friend of mine, Delta Airlines

pilot Matt Clark, went into
cardiac arrest just coming in over.

It was Newfoundland.

He ended up in Montauk, but
his captain had not done CPR in 30

years, went over there and
started pumping on his chest.

They used the onboard AED and
they brought him back to life.

So crazy.

Learning cpr.

Having an AED nearby will save
thousands of lives if we're able

to get this program rolling.

Well, I mean, I'm really glad
that everything worked out so we

could have this conversation,
so we could share it, so you could

write the book, so you could
have it.

Honestly, sounds like you have
the opportunity to help change a

lot of lives and you're gonna.

You're gonna take it and run
from it.

And I think that's really cool
to recognize kind of what happened,

how you can kind of pivot and
realize one flying's not your whole

career.

You.

You can do anything and you
can enjoy it and just enjoy it and

give back.

So I think it's really cool.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree.

Well, Tom, I appreciate your time.

This has been a lot of fun
talking with you, and it's cool to

kind of have this conversation.

Wayne and I was just a little
peon looking up at you, hoping that

you guys would say yes at one point.

So 1.

Thank you for that.

I appreciate it.

Nice to give you dj and I'm
glad you're with.

Yeah, it's been.

It's been a great time.

I have my 8 month review
coming up soon, so getting close

to being done with my
probation year and just enjoying

it while I can.

But I really appreciate this.

It's been a lot of fun and I
hope we can stay in touch.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, well, I appreciate
it, AV Nation.

That's a wrap on today's episode.

Thank you so much for
listening to the podcast.

I hope you enjoyed it.

If you haven't left a review
yet, please go to Spotify.

Please go to itunes.

I want to try to get to a
thousand reviews on each individual

platform.

So go ahead and leave a five
star review.

I mean, that'd be beneficial
and hopeful, but if you like the

podcast, please leave a five
star review on both of those and

also write a nice little
comment there.

It helps more people find this podcast.

And that's the goal, right?

To get more aviators to find
more people in aviation.

If you already left a review,
grab your dad's phone, leave a review

on his end.

But AV Nation, I hope you're
having a great day and as always,

happy flying.

Pilot to Pilot LLC is
compensated to make recommendations

to his or her followers
regarding the services of RAA or

Allworth Airline Advisors,
Companies of All Worth Financial

LP or Alworth.

Promoter is not an employee or
investment advisor Representative

of All Worth.

Promoter is a current client
of All Worth All Worth based promoter

fee of $4,000 a month for
sponsorship of the Pilot Pilot Podcast

Gas.

Due to the compensation
arrangement between Allworth and

Promoter, Promoter has an
incentive to recommend Allworth resulting

in material conflict of interest.

Promoter's role on behalf of
Allworth is limited strictly to making

recommendations regarding the
services of Allworth, introducing

or referring prospective
clients to Alworth.

Promoter has no responsibility
with respect to Allworth's Investment

Advisor or other advisory services.