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Join Dr. Kim Kutsch, the brilliant mind behind CariFree, as he explores the extraordinary lives of thought leaders in the dental industry, and beyond. Contrary to Ordinary explores further than dentistry - here we unravel the minds of change-makers, paradigm shifters, and world shakers.
Every two weeks, we dive into the stories of our remarkable guests—ordinary people who continually defy limits. Discover their tales of success, resilience, and self-awareness, and explore how they leverage these experiences not only to elevate dental practice and patient care but also to champion personal growth and entrepreneurship. Listen for captivating conversations with innovators who seamlessly blend art and technology, pursue curiosity, and create the truly extraordinary.
Contrary to Ordinary isn't your typical dentistry podcast—it's a vibrant community that's hit #1 in ‘Entrepreneurship,’ #3 in ‘Business,’ and #21 in ‘All Podcasts’ for a reason. We've had the pleasure of hosting inspiring guests like innovators, dental leaders, pioneering inventors, and artists, including Angus Walls, Machell Hudson, Dr. Simon McDonald, Dr. Bobby Birdi, Rella Christensen, Professor Phillip D. Marsh, Carmen Ohling, John Kois, Dr. Susan Maples, Doug Young, Colt Idol, Stephanie Staples, and many more who've graced our mic.
Each episode isn't just a listen; it's a lesson in living an extraordinary life authentically, embracing rebellion, and nurturing leadership. We dive into diverse topics, from mentoring, coaching, personal development, and work-life balance to self-awareness, emotional intelligence, leadership, storytelling, altruism, and motivation. And yes, we also cover dentistry—exploring natural dentists, dental health, dental laboratories, oral care, oral surgery, dental hygiene, caries disease, brushing teeth, and overall tooth care.
Tune in to Contrary to Ordinary for a unique blend of wisdom that goes beyond the ordinary and resonates with all aspects of life! This podcast aims to empower you to be extraordinary in your dental practice and improve not just your dental care but your overall life!
Do you have an extraordinary story you’d like to share with us? Or perhaps a question for Dr. Kutsch. Contact us on our Instagram, Facebook or Twitter today.
About Our Host:
Meet Dr. Kim Kutsch: a retired dentist with 40 years of experience, prolific writer, thought leader, inventor, and researcher in dental caries and minimally invasive dentistry, brings his insatiable curiosity to the forefront. Eager to learn from those breaking boundaries in dentistry, particularly in preventative and non-invasive dentistry approaches, Dr. Kutsch launched the Contrary to Ordinary podcast. As a keen creative and curious mind, Dr. Kutsch extends his podcast guest list to artists, entrepreneurs, and fascinating minds who have piqued his interest. He wants to learn from them and see how he can be inspired by their extraordinary ways of living and adapt his learnings into his own life and his business, CariFree.
About CariFree:
CariFree is the new model for oral health and cavity prevention. Dr. Kutsch is the CEO and founder of this business. They create cutting-edge technology and science-based solutions to common dental health concerns for the whole family, making it easy to banish cavities for good with preventive strategies over restorative procedures. Find out how dentists are using CariFree products to revolutionize their dental practices here: https://carifree.com/success-stories/.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
The job of a teacher is to have the students be better than you. I think there's a lot of people out there that if they were given an opportunity and you don't do a great job or you're not ready, you're probably never going to have an opportunity again. And so, my advice would be, don't be in a hurry to be on the main stage, because I've known too many people who tried to hit the big stage too soon and then they're one-trick ponies.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
On Contrary to Ordinary, we explore the motivations, lives and characters of innovators who see limitless potential around them. Through these conversations, we hope to provide insight into how you can emulate the mindsets of these extraordinary people in your own life and work.
My name is Dr. Kim Kutsch, and I spent over 20 years in dentistry before creating CariFree. We offer a range of dental products to the industry and the public, that promote the health and wellness of people suffering from the disease of carie.
This week, I'm excited to bring you a conversation with my incredible friend, Dr. Bob Margeas. Bob is one of my favorite people in the entire world, and I once heard him introduced as, "This is Dr. Bob Margeas, and if you don't like him, we can't be friends." Bob is a dental professional from Des Moines, Iowa, a professor of operative dentistry at the University of Iowa, and the editor-in-chief of Inside Dentistry. Bob has achieved so much in dentistry, but he's also someone who embraces his failures, seeing them as a valuable learning opportunity. And that's where I want to start our conversation today, with Bob being fired from his second job.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
It was kind of handwriting on the wall because my six-month review really wasn't that great. Not the dentistry. It wasn't the dentistry that was the bad part. It was getting the patients to have the dentistry. And I was pretty friendly with my patients, and I would walk them out into the waiting room and thank them for coming, and this and that. And I remember the dentist said, "Your job is not to be friends with your patient. Your job is to do the dentistry that needs to be done." And our personalities were so different, because I was a lot more gregarious. He was a very good dentist. I will say that he was a very good dentist, but our personalities were different.
But the beauty of this story is when he said to me, "I think you're going to have a hard time in this profession." Fast-forward 20-some years, and I'm literally at the Kois Center for the symposium. My first year as a scientific advisor. Now, I didn't go through all the Kois courses. I went through, I believe, seven of the courses. So, I never really became a mentor or a clinical instructor, but John had made me a scientific advisor for adhesives and composites.
During the initial symposium, he introduced his scientific advisors, as are you a scientific advisor. And he says, "And I have Dr. Robert Margeas from Des Moines, Iowa." The person who fired me was there at the symposium.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, no.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
He turns around and looks at me like ... I mean, he was shocked. At one of the breaks, Kim, you're going to love this story, I'm talking to all these people who are like, "Oh my God, that's so awesome that you're scientific advisor." He comes up to me and he puts his arm around me and says to the guys we're talking to, "Dr. Margeas, he was my first associate." And I started thinking, I said, "Yeah."
And I will tell you, at that time, I was taking a draw against future earnings. I was getting 30% of my collections, and I paid 30% of the lab bill. And I remember, I was getting a draw, Kim, of 1,050 every two weeks. So, I was getting $2,100 a month. When I left him, I owed him 3,500.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, no.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
And so, I'm telling this story to the group. I'm saying, "I was his associate. In fact, he paid me 1,050 every two weeks, and when I left him, I owed him 3,500. And you know what? I paid him back every penny." And then, he didn't feel that good about it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That brings up a subject here. So, how do you deal with adversity and challenge in your life then, Bob? Do you find it overwhelming or do you just say, "Oh yeah? Hold my beer and watch this."?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I was ready to leave anyway because our personalities were such, I didn't feel comfortable trying to talk people into things that maybe they didn't value. So, I think it's always good to plant the seed, but I never took it personal if people didn't accept my treatment plan. I always took it personal if they were leaving because they weren't happy with the dentistry, and I never really had a problem with the clinical part of it.
And after I left him, I said, "You know what? I'm going to explain to the patients what they need. If they want to do it, they're going to do it." I said, "I'm going to be a referee. I'm just a ref. I call it as I see it. It's their mouth, their time, their money."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
"It's not my teeth."
Dr. Bob Margeas:
"Not my teeth."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
And I always say that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. I look back, and I think job one, in my mind, as a dentist, job one for me was to develop a trust relationship with my patient because I serve them. Right? And so, the most important thing was for them to trust me, for us to have trust between us. I trusted them, they trusted me, and then I could do my best to be able to provide care for them that they valued or wanted, or what they really would benefit from. Right?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Correct.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I had a business manager years ago, and when I'd hired her, the first thing she asked me was, "What's your daily goal?" And I said to her, "I want to make a difference in one person's life today." And she said, "No, I mean your production goal." And I go, "I want to make a difference in one person's life today." And she said, "Yeah, but what do you want to produce?" And I said, "I'm not worried about that, because if I do the right thing and I'm taking care of people, money is never an issue with that." Right? My goal was to make a difference ... And I distill it down to just one. If I could just make a difference in one person's life today, I had a great day, right?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
You know what? It sounds crazy, but that's exactly the way that I feel. I never chased a buck. I never had a goal. I never told my hygienist, "We need to diagnose more." You do the right thing for the patient, what you would want done, and you're going to be successful if you do the right thing and you're not really ripping somebody off.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
For many entrepreneurs, money is not the primary motivator. Entrepreneurship is a long game. So, there needs to be something else moving you forward day by day, through the good times and the bad. Sometimes that drive is found in personal growth.
Mark Organ, the former founder and CEO of Influitive, once said, "If the goal is not the payoff, but regular progress on the journey, it's a lot easier to withstand the wild gyrations of startup life and to stare down the possibility of failure. The more we embrace the lessons and pitfalls of our journey, the more it will pay off down the road." Back to my conversation with Bob now, we're talking mentors.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I'll start with my former partner. When I got my senior year at dental school, I did a six-week rotation through his office. I learned from him early on about occlusion, prosthetics, this and that, but I wanted to be his associate, and he said, no. And so, he says, "Go get some more experience." So, from 1986 to 2001, I was working in another office as an independent contractor. In 2001, I ended up buying his practice, and he worked with me for five years until, unfortunately, he passed away of pancreatic cancer in 2006. And he was an unselfish person who only wanted the best for me, was proud of me, was happy. And probably one of the best days of his life was we opened a teaching center in the new office, and the first class were all Kois people. John Derango, Ed Borio, John Green, Terry Green, Ron Wilkins, all these Kois people flew in to take a course from us.
And let me tell you, Kim, it was a Monday when I came into the office and the course was going to be on Friday. And I said to Paul, I said, "Paul, are you feeling okay?" He didn't look good to me. He goes, "Never better. I feel great," he says, "Now, come on now," he goes, "we got to get ready for this course this week. You're going to do a great job." Blah, blah, blah. On Thursday night before the course starts on Friday, we all had a cocktail hour. Paul shows up at the bar, doesn't have a drink. I say, "You feeling okay?" He goes, "Yeah, I feel fine. Feel fine." We do the course on Friday and Saturday, and I am taking Terry Green to the airport because Terry flew his plane in.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I said, "Paul, why don't you meet me at the waterfront? I'll drop Terry. I'll meet you at the waterfront and we'll celebrate." So, he said, "No, come on back to the office, then we can go to waterfront." So, I dropped Terry off. I come back to the office and Paul says to me, "I got some bad news, really bad news for you." I said, "Well, what's that?" He said, "I got pancreatic cancer." I cried like a baby, because here he is, he didn't want to mess my week up with all the Kois people. So, he had gotten the news already that he was sick, but he never showed it to me until after the course. And that's the kind of guy that was more of a father figure to me than even my own dad, to tell you the truth. He wanted me to be successful.
And another thing about Paul is when I bought his practice, I can't believe that we were $300,000 apart in the price, what I was offering and what he wanted. And he says, "Make me an offer." I said, "I'm going to make you the offer that my guy told me to make you." He says, "Well, I can't accept that, but I'll take an additional 50 off." I said, "Excuse me?" I said, "I offered you 300,000 less than what you wanted, and you're taking another 50 off?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "Why would you do that?" He goes, "You're the guy that I want for my practice. I don't want to walk into the local grocery store and know I sold my practice to some guy who didn't have any hands. And I really believe in what you're doing, so I'm going to sell it to you for even less."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Wow.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
That's unheard of.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. Oh, that is unheard of.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
It's unheard of. We practiced five more years together, and then he passed away 5/6 of '07.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. So, a couple of characteristics about him. It sounded like he was really generous.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Selfless. He was really about excellence and helping and giving, generous in terms of helping other people.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Unbelievable. I look at his gold work that he did in the '60s that's still in the mouth. It's like a Tucker gold inlay. The work was outstanding, outstanding, and he took great pride in being a good dentist. He used to say to me, I was single at the time, he says, "I don't care what they say about you, that you go out or you do this or you do that." He goes, "I never want to hear anybody say he's a bad dentist and you rip people off." He says, "You always got to make sure you're doing the highest quality work." Amazing person.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Well, it's honest then. I really appreciate you being so open, Bob, but I knew that you would be, right?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Right. Of course.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You're one of those, what you see is what you get.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
That's it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Which, I really love that about you.
The exchange of learning and a good mentoring relationship should flow both ways. In The Reverse Mentor: How Young Leaders Can Transform the Culture and Ignite the Modern Workplace, Greg Kessler and Amy Richmond suggest that young mentees may have knowledge and skills that help mentors and organizations adapt in a rapidly changing world. Bob has a symbiotic relationship like this at his practice.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I have a young associate, I hired him. He was three years old when he came to me as a patient, and he ends up going to dental school, and I tell my buddies, "I'm hiring this guy." I said, "If he was a stock, I would invest in him." Loved his personality. I didn't know how great his hands were. I thought he had good hands, because I taught at the dental school and I still teach at the dental school, and he did some operative and things like that.
But more importantly to me was, he was motivated to learn, number one. Number two, he grew up in Des, Moines, Iowa. He had a great personality. I think, Kim, you can teach dentistry, but you can't teach personality and talking to patients. And I know dentists who have some of the best hands ever and are the most unsuccessful dentists financially.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. Yeah, because they're really introverted and have a hard time just having that conversation with patients.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
But I try to teach him something every day. And when I'm gone and a patient comes in and he doesn't feel comfortable doing something, he's humble enough to say, "Hey, I'm going to wait till Dr. Margeas is here." And instead of trying to undertake something that he really isn't qualified to do. So, I teach him these things and it gives me great satisfaction because he's pretty happy about learning the things that he had never seen before.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I'm just sitting here thinking, how fortunate for him to have a mentor like you, right? And now, you've been just named one of the most influential dentists.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Tell me about that.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Every year, Incisal Edge Magazine puts out their list of 32 of the most influential people in dentistry. And I've looked at this over the years, I think this is seventh year, and I was always looking at it going, "Man, that'd be really cool." Not ever thinking that you're going to be influential or anything like that. But this year it came out and I started getting text messages on my phone saying, "Hey, congratulations, 24. That's really awesome."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And I got to tell you this, Bob, and well-deserved.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Oh, thank you so much.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. I've seen you do demonstrations for audiences. If you've never done one of those, anything that can and will go wrong, and that takes a tremendous amount of courage. It's one thing to talk about it to an audience. It's another to do it for an audience. Right?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I agree. And last year, I did a live demo, and who's my assistant blowing air on my tooth? John Kois. And when I get done, I think I moved the line angle, I hit the burr a little bit too hard, I moved the line angle, and I said, "Oh." And John goes, "Oh, I hate when that happens."
But yeah, it was live. Anytime you're doing it live, there's a little element ... And I did a live demonstration for the Academy of Operative Dentistry, and there's a great dentist, Joel Wagoner, a gentleman out of North Carolina. I said, "I'm really nervous about doing this." I go, "It's almost like one of the Flying Wallendas that's on the tightrope without a net." And he goes, "Bob, don't worry, you are the net." And it gave me a little bit more confidence. But yeah, it's been fun.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
What kind of things do you do for fun, Bob?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Oh, I got married for the first time at 53. My wife is a dentist and she had a practice in Michigan, and I had my practice in Iowa. Well, the boys were eight and 10 years old when we got together. And so, I was working Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday in Iowa, and then I would fly up to Michigan Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I still had my practice going, and she had her practice, and the boys couldn't move from Michigan to Iowa. Their dad was there.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Okay.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
And so, my life right now, what I do for fun is I go up to Michigan, and we live on Lake Huron.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
So, my backyard is Lake Huron. So, it's a beautiful lake, clean. I have a little boat that I can drive. I'm not very good at it. My wife usually tools me around. I got a paddle board. I work now, Kim, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and then I take 10 days off to be up in Michigan, Friday to the following Sunday.
So, we go to Detroit quite a bit because it's 50 miles away. We love the sporting events in Detroit, the restaurants. And now we have my stepson one's at Michigan, a sophomore to be, and then another one at Princeton who's in mechanical engineering.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yeah, it's really fun.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh yeah. It's great to be able to have kids and be a mentor to them as well.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And those are fun years.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
It's unbelievable. And my stepson, Nick, wrote me just a heartfelt Father's Day card, and I read it to my brother today on the ... I sent it to him, and it brings a tear to your eye, how he's so, "Thank you so much for teaching me about finances and where I want to be when I'm older. I can't imagine my life without you and you meeting my mom, and appreciates everything." To me, that's worth more than money, and that gives me great joy.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
They're your bonus kids.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
They're my bonus kids.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. But you've never changed a diaper in your life.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
You know what? I've never changed a diaper ever.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Hey, Contrary to Ordinary listeners, I want to tell you a little bit about my company CariFree. We offer affordable science-based solutions to common dental health concerns for the whole family. Vanish cavities for good, and welcome in a healthy smile and a great first impression. Visit carifree.com for more details.
So, you're teaching at the dental school.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You've got a private practice.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And you're editor of this journal, and you have a teaching center.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And somebody's going to look at you and go, "How do you do all that?"
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I don't really have a lot of extracurricular activities. When I say I go up to Michigan and do this and that, I'm still working up there, thinking of things to do. And when COVID hit, I don't know if you realize this, that Marcos Vargas and I started an online composite mastery. And we started a Composite Mastery Online course where we made 10 modules, and then we have a subscription base. And I'll tell you, that's probably been one of the most rewarding things that I've done, because once a month for three to four hours, we have a live webinar for all of our members, that Marcos and I do. And we've got over 1,000 members now, that are on Composite Mastery Online, and it's over 115 hours of education.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Wow.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
So, it's something that I'm very proud of, and I don't want it to sound like it's an advertorial, because it's not.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
No.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
It's something that if it was a course that I wanted to learn, this is what I would want. And it's every day, I record videos, and as I'm recording the video, I'm doing polish on the rubber ... Boom, a bird gets caught in the rubber dam, and they want you to edit it. I say, "I'm not editing anything out. I want to show what can happen in real time." And so, it's been really quite rewarding, really fun. And Marcos Vargas, if you haven't seen Marcos Vargas, I think he's one of the most talented composite guys in the world.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Wow.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Amazing.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Coming from you, it is a huge compliment.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Hey, he's a researcher, clinician, teacher. His SEMs are impeccable. It's amazing what Marcos Vargas does.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's one of the things I appreciate, Bob, and I know you do too, is the first time I came to the Kois Center and John was the first person that I'd seen present failures.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right? And he would say, "Here's this case. And here it is, five years later. It failed. Here's why it failed." Right? "Here's what I did wrong." Or, "Here's the material error." Or, "It either failed from my judgment," or, et cetera, "or the material failed, but here's why." And you never see that.
And so, to sit in a program and have somebody start showing you their failures and then explaining why it failed, so that you can avoid that failure, right? If possible.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I think, sometimes knowing what not to do is just as important as knowing what to do. Right?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
100%. And I will tell you that back in Key Biscayne for one of the Seattle Study Club symposiums, Michael Cohen called me and asked me, he says, "I want you to do a program on failures." I said, "What?" He goes, "Yeah, your failures." And it was called Failures Two. Everybody would have to present failures. To be honest with you, it's a humbling experience. When stuff starts to fail, that's when you stop take pictures. You don't want to take-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Forget this happened.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
So, I presented failures on immediate implants, this and that. And the thing I took away from it, there were guys on the stage that were presenting failures, but they would say, "Oh, this is a failure that came into my office and here's how I fixed it." And here I'm showing failures that I did and I felt, "Man, look at this." That puts you really stripped down.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Right? But everybody experiences that. There isn't anybody that hasn't had a failure and something didn't work out less than ideal, let's say, or a material or something broke, or something went sideways, because you don't have control over everything. Right? And in healthcare, you're treating biology. You don't have control over biology. Right? I mean, the body and the healing mechanisms and the biofilm, and you just go on and on. And so, you don't have control over that. So, we all experience some level of failure at times and disappointment maybe in our outcomes, but to never recognize that is almost like to pretend it doesn't happen. Or, if it did happen, then you wouldn't be as a good a clinician and maybe you shouldn't be presenting.
There's a kind of, I think, that aura around that. But to be able to present your failures and be real, and I think it is so valuable for us to be able to be honest and just share, "You know what? I tried this and it didn't work."
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Absolutely. And my stuff fails. I've seen failures over and over. And I had a lady that came in just ... I think it was Tuesday, or it was Monday this week, and she was like 72. And I'll tell you what, Kim, I said to her, "I don't know what's happening, but every time you come in now, you have cavities. You've never had cavities for 70 years, and your dentistry has been impeccable." This and that. I said, "Are you sucking on mints? Are you sucking on cough drops?" Who knows more about this than you, when it comes to CariFree? Let me talk about you and your products and how much they help my patients. So, Kim, she says to me, "Oh," she says, "I teach piano lessons and one of the things that I give out to my students are little Smarties." Those Smarties sugar-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. Right. Sugar.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
She says, "And I wake up in the middle of the night when I can't sleep, and I put Smarties in my mouth." I was literally shocked by it. And I said to her, "Oh my gosh, now I know what's happening." Because she was getting root caries. She was getting caries everywhere. That's where your products come in.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Failure can often be a stepping stone to success. In the mid-1980s, Steve Jobs was forced out of Apple, only to come back and acquire it many years later via his new company, NeXT. In the 1970s, James Dyson watched his vacuum cleaner designs fail, which led him to develop the unique air suction technology that his products still use today.
It may not be apparent straight away, but failure in the short term can create success down the line. Through his talent, luck and work ethic, Bob has had the opportunity to share his failures over the years, but he never takes that opportunity for granted.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I've done courses where I'm doing live demonstration, and then I'm walking around the room, and I'm looking at some of the cases and I'm going, "My gosh, these people are talented. They're more talented than what I am." And I can tell you that there are a lot of dentists out there that have not had a platform. So, don't think that because you have a platform, that you know everything and you're the best. My goal is to see people like Amanda Seay, who's so talented, took my courses and she gives me a lot of credit, and she's amazing. I want these people to be better.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
She's one of the most talented, gifted clinicians, literally, that I've ever seen. And she's so humble about it. Right?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
She really is.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
She's just an amazing person. Yeah.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
And it gives me great pleasure to see people that you taught or had an influence on, that I'm in awe of. That I'm like, whoa, they took this to a new level. But the job of a teacher is to have the students be better than you. And so, it's a platform that I don't take for granted, for sure. I mean, it's fun, but I think there's a lot of people out there that if they were given an opportunity, and somebody's got to give you an opportunity, but if you get that opportunity and you don't do a great job or you're not ready, you're probably never going to have an opportunity again.
And so, my advice would be, document as much as you can of cases that you do, but don't be in a hurry to be on the main stage. Maybe do some ... I did table clinics for years at the state meeting. Then I did local state meetings.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Play in the farm league for a few years.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yes, that's exactly right. Because I've known too many people who tried to hit the big stage too soon, and then they're one-trick ponies. It's over. So, you got to start a little bit slower and work your way up to the big leagues.
And probably the greatest joy that I got was, Polydoran, my mentor, went to the Chicago mid-meeting from 1961 to 2006, every single year. And then, we would go together the last 15 years of his life. When I got the letter that said, "You have been invited to speak at the Chicago Midwinter." The smile on his face. The unfortunate thing was it was 2007, February of '07, he died 5/6 of '07, May 6 of '07. He never got to see me present at the midwinter, but they had video recorded it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
And so, he got to see me. And you know what? It gave him great joy. It's awesome.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Do you ever get nervous before you get up in front of an audience?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I still do get nervous. I still get a little bit, not super nervous, but when it's at the Kois Center, or it's at a major Seattle Study Club ... If it's a local study club, I still get a little bit anxious. But I sure do get nervous. I really do.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. When you speak of something like the Kois Symposium, you're getting up in front of a room of 500 phenomenal clinicians. Some days, I sit there and I look around the room and I think, "Do I belong here?"
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I know.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Because this group is inspirational. I would have to say this, it's the biggest collection of talent in dentistry that I've ever seen.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I agree. And I think about if a bomb blew up in a symposium, you'd lose like 25, 30% of the top lecturers or clinicians that are out there presenting. And so, it's been a great career. Don't take anything for granted. Enjoy it. Be passionate, learn as much you can, because let me tell you, my first five years out of dental school, I had zero money. I had a used car. I lived in an apartment.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And you got fired twice.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yeah, and I got fired twice. But you know what, Kim? I had 500 hours of CE. My first five years out of dental school, I had 500 hours of CE. So, if an implant case came in or a veneer case came in, I could do it. I didn't have any money, but I spent my money learning education. And Paul, one other story he used to say is, he'd say, "I don't care what you spend your money on for the office. You want a cone beam or a panorex. That's not a BMW or a boat." He'd say, "That's going to help your practice."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Correct.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
"Don't feel bad spending money on your practice."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. I have another question for you.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So, as I talk to extraordinary people, and we're trying to understand extraordinary people and what drives them. Do you think that it's something that is innate, you're born that way? Or, is it something that you learn along the way? Or, is it something that you decide to do with your life? Or, is it maybe even just a gift?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I think it's a combination. I think you got to have a little bit of luck. You got to be at the right place at the right time. But when you're given that opportunity to be in the big leagues, you got to be able to deliver.
And so, I feel like, you want to be prepared at all times, number one. And I think any profession that you're in, you want to strive to be the best. And for me to become a dentist when I never was even growing up that I wanted to be a dentist, I kind of just groomed myself into something that I was passionate about. I think the key is really passion. And when you look at the people who are extraordinary, like the Koises and the Spears, they were passionate. Do you think John Kois needs to work another day in his life? Kim, you don't need to work a day in your life. I don't need to work.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
But you know what? We're not doing it for that reason.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I'm having more fun right now than I've ever had in my life. In fact, I almost feel guilty, I'm having so much fun. Right? I would wish that everybody could have this much fun.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
And to get paid, literally to do what you want to do anyway, is a gift.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's a gift.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
It's a gift. And so, I just feel like you don't want to be jealous of people. You don't want to be envious. If you're looking to want to go into something more, like speaking or teaching, find a mentor. Do you think I would shoo anybody away? If somebody calls me up and says, "Hey, I'd like to come watch." "Hey, come on, watch me. You're more than welcome to come to my office and watch what I do. I'm happy to help you." But I'm not going to call them up and say, "Hey, let me teach you how to do this."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. So, what's one thing about you that people probably don't know?
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I think that at times I'm a little bit insecure. It may seem like I'm very confident, this and that, but I would say that there are times when I'm on the stage and I see the dentist who shows five single centrals in a row that are perfect, and they don't say, "Hey, this took three times." Or, "This was $1,500." And I'm a little bit insecure thinking my program is not as strong as that. Although, I say to myself, they couldn't come to my office and see 40 hygiene patients a day and do the dental work that I'm doing, but I can't do what they do because I couldn't afford to do it. So, I would say, I think deep down, I'm a little bit insecure at times, when I really shouldn't be.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's interesting. I wouldn't expect that. I wouldn't anticipate that about Bob Margeas.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yeah. I'm getting over it, over the years, that I don't really care.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
If you keep doing it for another 40 years, right? Maybe you'll get over it, Bob.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yeah. Right. But when I look at my program and I see the amount of time that people put into their programs and the font and the slides, and the videos, and this and that, and mine is a slideshow. I will tell you this, I presented at Newton Falls Continuum in Brazil with a number of dentists on the screen, and he says to me, "Your program, your cases were great. Visually, it was weak. But I will tell you, you're the best storyteller that I've ever heard in dentistry." And I think that goes a long way, being authentic and telling a story.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, yeah. People, we all love to hear stories.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yep.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right? I think that's hard baked in us, our tribe.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It's the storytelling, et cetera, and the art and the stories.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
I'd have to agree with that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Well, Bob, I got to tell you, I've absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this.
Dr. Bob Margeas:
Thank you so much. I look forward to listening to your podcasts. And congratulations on having such a successful podcast. I've been able to be on a lot of podcasts, but this is a very professional way of doing it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Thank you so much, Dr. Bob Margeas, for joining me today. And thank you for going on this inspiring journey with me. Around here, we aim to inspire and create connections. We can't do it without you.
If this conversation moved you, made you smile or scratched that little itch of curiosity today, please share it with the extraordinary people in your life. And if you do one thing today, let it be extraordinary. Bye, for now.