DejaVue

In the seventh episode of DejaVue, Alex sits down with Team Lead Marc Backes as our guest. Our conversation takes us on a journey through his career with Programming and Vue.js. Marc shares the beginnings of his coding journey, from the development of Software for a Mexican University and lessons learned from founding a startup and eventually joining a German company as freelance developer.

We also dig deeper into the world of Developer Relations (DevRel) and talk about Marc's transition into this field, as well as major achievements such as the CODE100 Coding Competition and the importance of ambassadors for frameworks such as Vue and Nuxt.

Further, Marc sheds light on his decision to leave DevRel and becoming a Tech Lead at the company he's been with twice beforehand. We explore how this transition addressed certain pain points and dive into practical strategies for handling legacy code and technical debt.

Enjoy the episode!

Chapters
  • (00:00) - Intro
  • (01:04) - Public Speaking and Conferences
  • (03:15) - The Start of Marc's Coding Journey
  • (06:49) - Building University Admin Software
  • (09:42) - Startup Founding Lessons
  • (13:27) - How the Journey Continued
  • (20:40) - What is DevRel?
  • (21:52) - Getting into DevRel
  • (24:22) - Developer Advocate vs Developer Relations
  • (27:20) - "Framework DevRels" and Ambassadors
  • (29:38) - CODE100 Coding Competition
  • (35:42) - Why leaving DevRel?
  • (38:28) - Becoming a Tech Lead
  • (41:44) - Did the role change solve the pain points?
  • (46:57) - How do you handle legacy code and technical debt?
  • (52:01) - Widen/Narrow approach for migrations
  • (54:20) - How to please the developer and the business side
  • (58:42) - Carté blanch for team managing
  • (01:02:30) - Wrapping it up

Links and Resources




Creators & Guests

Host
Alexander Lichter
Web Engineering Consultant • Founder • Nuxt team • Speaker
Guest
Marc Backes
Dev Team Lead / Student Pilot / Public speaker, MC
Editor
Niki Brandner
Sound Engineer

What is DejaVue?

Welcome to DejaVue, the Vue podcast you didn't know you needed until now! Join Michael Thiessen and Alexander Lichter on a thrilling journey through the world of Vue and Nuxt.

Get ready for weekly episodes packed with insights, updates, and deep dives into everything Vue-related. From component libraries to best practices, and beyond, they've got you covered.

Alex:

Everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Deja View, your favorite view podcast you just don't know yet. Or maybe well, this time you really should. If you haven't checked out all the old episodes, take a look. We're quite some episodes in already.

Alex:

Looking forward to double digits very soon. And, yeah, Michael and I are hosting that. Usually, Michael is not here today because he is still on paternity leave with his newborn. So as usual, best of success, and we'll welcome him here very soon back again at Deja View. And in the meantime, we had some amazing guests already, and there is one more wonderful person joining the podcast today in line with all the amazing other people.

Alex:

He is a public speaker. He is the team lead and a soon to be pilot. So welcome, Mark Buckers, to today's web podcast. Hey. How are you doing?

Marc:

Hey, Alex. How is it going? Thanks for having me here.

Alex:

Yeah. Of course. Of course. Thanks. Thanks for joining.

Alex:

I'm I'm really curious about all the talking points for today. Anything that I I missed? Anything you you want to say that I forgot about?

Marc:

No. No. You're on the dots. Perfect. On the dots.

Marc:

Yeah.

Alex:

Perfect. I I remember last time we saw each other, it was probably at dev world, like, in person where

Marc:

In dev world. Yeah. Vuegies Amsterdam dev world.

Alex:

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Marc:

About it.

Alex:

Where where you gave a talk as well, because you're doing strong with public speaking. Thanks. So, I mean, that's pretty amazing. Plus, the upcoming talk at dotjs in Paris will also be pretty nice.

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm a little bit nervous about that one because I think it's a little bit more professional than, like like, what I'm used to. Like, I'm more like casual conference, but I think this is a little bit upper notch. So, I I will see.

Marc:

I will try to do my best to fulfill the expectations.

Alex:

I'm more than sure you will. Yeah. I understand it's like a little bit of a different, like, frame, a little bit of different setting, but

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex:

You will do great and more. And if everybody

Marc:

It's not again it's not again just between friends or between people that know each other like it is usually at, Viewtus Amsterdam That's true. More comfortable. So stepping out of the comfort zone with this one, but looking forward to it.

Alex:

And that's also great. I mean, like, doing the next step, not only I mean, I I know it for myself, not only being the Vue. Js bubble in a way. It's always nice to meet new people there, of course. And if if someone on the audience joins Dodge.

Alex:

Js in Paris, very soon, then you will also see Mark live in person.

Marc:

Oh, yeah. If you go there, just come say hi. It's the next conference I will be at.

Alex:

Perfect. Yeah. Looking forward to that. Unfortunately, I won't be there, but I will go through a few Confu S very soon. So, yeah, that would that would also be fun.

Alex:

And I hope then at some point, we'll we'll see each other in person again.

Marc:

Yeah. I hope so. I hope so. Where is VueConf US, this year?

Alex:

In New Orleans like it was last year.

Marc:

New Orleans. Oh, yeah. Never I always have huge FOMO, but I can't justify going there just for the view conferencing.

Alex:

Yeah. Fair. Fair. I mean, I'm very happy that I was chosen. And once again, after 2020, I mean, I I think I submit almost every year and, of course, there was COVID, so not that time.

Alex:

Yeah. But, yeah, I'm very, very happy to be one of the the chosen ones that has the honor to speak there again. So

Marc:

Awesome. Congrats on that.

Alex:

Thank you. Thank you. But we don't want to talk too much about conferences today, at least not where where I am going. It's more interesting where you where you go. And, I think we can start with maybe going all the way back a little bit of history, and maybe we'll start at a at a starting point of your, let's say, coding journey.

Alex:

So how did you start how do you start programming?

Marc:

I started programming in high school, actually. When, here in Luxembourg, I don't know where how is it in other countries. When you are around 15, 16, you can choose, a way you want to go, like mechanics, electronics, computer science, natural sciences, languages, whatever. And I I was between, yeah, electronics, but maybe computer science. And I went into the computer science, and I I really liked it.

Marc:

It it was very broad, like network stuff, computer programming stuff, and I really liked programming, there. So I in university, I went the programming way. So information sciences and bachelor and the master in, how was it called, embedded systems. I I never did anything with embedded systems, but it was nice doing the master in that. It's, yeah, interesting.

Marc:

But, yeah, after that, after university, I had the huge chance that I knew someone that knew someone. So I ended up being a director of software development in a university in Mexico. So, a person I knew, her father, was the owner or is still the owner of that university, and they were looking for someone to modernize their, their workflow. So it was all in paper, like, in scrubbing students and all of that was still in paper.

Alex:

Really?

Marc:

This was 20, 12, I think.

Alex:

Crazy.

Marc:

2012. Yeah. And I had no idea about, web development, so I learned on the go that time Ruby on Rails version 2 back then. So yeah. So old the old back when Greg Pollack did the intro for rails for zombies, and he did that the course.

Marc:

I I learned actually with him. I learned rails.

Alex:

That's pretty cool.

Marc:

So yeah. So, yeah, I did that for 2 years, then I, started a little bit entrepreneurial route. So I left that job and I just started, going to an incubator because I did a hack a thon. I I, I got first place there, and the first place was, being paid, or having, like, the scholarship, so

Alex:

to say Oh, okay.

Marc:

To go to the incubator. So there was it was 3 months or 4 months of, like, courses and iterating ideas and stuff, and there were a few things that came out that came out of there. We developed a few things, a few ideas, and some things one thing got to Silicon Valley. So a personal safety app without going too much into detail, but that has a lot of, potential, then I run out of money. What happened after that, I will tell you.

Marc:

But, we also had a food delivery app, which was actually going great. Just one of my cofounders left, and I just sort of, didn't find another one, and I lost interest in it. So but it was because back then, in Mexico, in the city where I was living there, there was not a lot of that going on. So it was people were still some people were like, oh my god. I don't need this.

Marc:

Restaurants were like, yeah. I have all the business I can use. But others were very happy. Like, oh my god. Yeah.

Marc:

Modernization, please.

Alex:

Wow. I mean okay. So this this sounds like quite a journey in a couple of years. So going from from from graduating university to moving to Mexico from Luxembourg. Right?

Alex:

Then being there, the the director of of tech, let's say. Yeah. And wow. And also, like, modernizing workflows that are all on paper. I can also imagine all like, the people were very happy eventually.

Marc:

Oh, yeah. And it was such a, an an interesting job. Right? So the 1st few months were just analyzing requirements. By the way, I did I didn't really speak the Spanish back then.

Marc:

I learned it on the go. I just had a basic Spanish course in university. So, I had a lot of people helping me with that, of course, but I it was, yeah, adventurous, let's say. But it was very very interesting getting to know all the requirements and also building the system and it ended up being quite complex. So I became quite good at solving complex, data flows and that sort of stuff.

Alex:

That makes sense. I mean, I can imagine, like, I remember from from my German university where I finally graduated a couple like a month ago or something. That's, yeah. Thanks. Yeah.

Alex:

It was about time. I studied for almost 10 years. So, yeah. But I remember also there, like, the workflows and, oh, yeah, and these forms and so on. And still, there is no like, for some things, there's an online portal, but at least I can fill out the form or the PDF, which is another crazy file format, of course, at like, on PC.

Alex:

And I don't have to, like, print it and scan it again. I can just send it over. So that's good, at least, somehow. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex:

Oh, and I mean, that in in a foreign language that that you, like, didn't speak fluently at that point, that's that's once again yet another challenge.

Marc:

Yeah. And the software was was very, like, complete and working in each other. So it had, like, in describing the students, the teachers, assigning semesters to the students. So automatically, he gets enrolled in the courses. The teachers get assigned a course, then the teacher can grade the students.

Marc:

The student can grade the teacher after the end of the year, and there was also was also in event management and all of that working together. So it was amazingly fun working on that as a first real job, let's say.

Alex:

Like, did you work on it all by yourself, or did you have, like, help from from the programming side?

Marc:

Yeah. I started by myself, and, I got some, some help with that mostly or not only, how do you say, volunteer students that were like, oh, yeah. I need I want to work with this in order to get the scholarship in university. So they work with me in change for having free tuition, which was also nice.

Alex:

Yeah. That's I mean, that sounds like a win win in the end indeed. Cool. Okay. And then you said, okay, we had we had your job at the university and then you became a startup founder.

Alex:

So what what made you leave the director position there?

Marc:

I always had this idea. Oh, yeah. I want to do something more. I want to do my own business, something like that. And we just, participated actually with the team that we had in, the university.

Marc:

We were participating in things as 4 people in the hackathon. Right? And there, we won the 1st place, which, yeah, had scholarship for this incubator. And I was like, yeah, this is like almost like a sign. Right?

Marc:

I wanted to do something else, and the software was running more or less. There was not much more to add to it. It was stable. So I thought, like, yeah, why not why not do it like like right? It's it's a great it's a great chance to to see what what what is there.

Marc:

Like, how how is entrepreneurship like?

Alex:

Absolutely. And now you had also the means to it. You don't have to worry about, okay. How do I pay myself or, like, the other people from the theme or, like, investor topic? I mean, you were you were good for a little bit so you could start, like, pursuing the ideas.

Marc:

Yeah. And, actually, one of the ideas we had, it was like a a digital or well, not a digital, a technological pillbox. So let's say you you have a person that needs to take pills and they are, like, not so good managing the pills. And so it has It tells them when to take them. It alerts a caretaker when they took it, if they didn't take it, and to see if everything is right.

Marc:

So to, like, manage that a little bit, but it with with a with a nice thought through device. And the thing there was, we we registered for a grant for government grant. Mhmm. And in all the country around for I think it was 30,000 projects. There were 3 projects selected that got the grant, and my project got got the grant

Alex:

Wow.

Marc:

An equivalent of 2,000 $250,000. So it was 5,000 something pesos.

Alex:

Really cool.

Marc:

And, yeah. I lost it all.

Alex:

Wait. Wait. Wait. You lost it all. No.

Alex:

What happened?

Marc:

Well, I didn't I didn't lose it as much as it has been taken from me in a in a very cruel way. So, in this incubator, right, there were, like, other people and we were like, oh, yeah. Let's do this project. And I was like, yeah. In order to register for the grant, you need to, have, like, a certain visa stand, like, to be in the country like a resident.

Marc:

And my visa was, like, just in between statuses. So, oh, let's register the grant in the name of this person. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sure.

Marc:

Yeah. We got to know each other in the 3 months or the 4 months that the the course took. And then, yeah, her family took off with the money. Never saw her again.

Alex:

Crazy. So, basically, they stole it, let's say.

Marc:

They stole it. Yeah.

Alex:

From a legal perspective, definitely questionable. It was on their name, but oh, wow.

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex:

I mean, first of all, getting selected, like 3 out of 30,000 or how many projects is crazy accomplishment, and it's it's so nice, but, damn it.

Marc:

Yeah. It was it sucked big time. Yeah. But I learned a very, very important lesson. Never, leave out a, a written agreement about this kind of stuff.

Marc:

So

Alex:

Especially not at that amount.

Marc:

The hard way. Yeah. Not for that amount. Okay. Not for that amount.

Marc:

Yeah.

Alex:

And so okay. Then the the the big money that would have come in was gone and

Marc:

Yeah. All gone.

Alex:

Yes. So back to square root of 1, I guess. And, then then you continued doing the startup with

Marc:

with Yeah. I continued with with some different startup ideas, one that made it to Silicon Valley, and then I eventually ran out of money because I didn't really have a job. I didn't have income. None of my projects made money, so I looked for freelance positions and I a company from Germany contacted me because I was looking among friends. Back then, it was Facebook.

Marc:

Like, does anyone has a remote job for me? And, like, someone wrote me, like, oh, yeah. I I'm also from Luxembourg, but working in this German company, crazy coincidence. You went to the same school as I That's cool. Just 1 year before.

Marc:

Crazy coincidence. Yeah. Yeah. And, he contacted me. Oh, yeah.

Marc:

Let's talk. And I did, like, some small jobs for them. It started with they had a chat, and it was mobile friendly. So they want to make it more mobile friendly and I helped them out with the CSS, like, for, like, €200 job, something like that. And, yeah, that evolved.

Marc:

Oh, yeah. Like, let's do this. Let's do that. I got more projects. I got more involved.

Marc:

I went to Germany a few times until I ended up moving there for 2 years.

Alex:

But before it was still Mexico. Right? So we had, like, all the time zone issues.

Marc:

I was still working from from yeah. Time, time zone issues. Yeah. So I had the meetings with them in my morning in their afternoon evening. It wasn't ideal.

Marc:

Yeah. We were working the this project and it was all legacy code, like, real legacy code, like, 20 year old legacy code with Perl.

Alex:

With Perl. Wow.

Marc:

With Perl. I I modernized it a little bit with PHP and, it had jQuery, of course. Yeah.

Alex:

Must have.

Marc:

And, I also went to conference, during the time I was there. And there I took a workshop of Vue. Js and I was like, oh, man. If we had this in our app, man, this that would, like, change everything because the whole development process was insane. It was like uploading files to SFTP, that sort of stuff.

Marc:

That's how it worked back in the day.

Alex:

It's still for some companies still today, unfortunately, like, I I know some who still exactly do that with, like, CICD. No. No. No. No.

Alex:

We just push it up. It's fine. Awesome version control, not a thing.

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I introduced version control there as well.

Alex:

Very good.

Marc:

And, yeah. Then I was like, yeah. Oh, man. Like, I tried to to push, like, more modern tech there, and we just didn't have the time. Right?

Marc:

And then I decided, yeah, I wanted to to do something else. I wanted to pursue the root of just learning new things. This was 2016 maybe, and I learned Vue. Js, Node. Js, all that cool stuff, SASS, which was bigger thing back then than it is now.

Marc:

But, yeah, so I, I learned all that stuff. And as a demo for, like, learning it to build a project, I built what I knew as domain subject. Right? What they did, and I built that, and I was like, how? They could probably use this.

Marc:

Right? So I asked them, hey, guys. Are you interested in, like, maybe buying this from me? And at first, they were, like, a little bit upset with me because they thought I I was I would, like, sell it to their competitors or do a competitive, like, be their competitor or whatever. Yeah.

Marc:

But yeah. No. It it was just, like, for me to train. Right? And they were like, oh, yeah.

Marc:

Let's take a look. And they took a look. So they liked it a lot and then they took me back and I coded, along there. Yeah. So then they Oh, okay.

Marc:

They hired a few people to help out. In between, I left again to do, DevRel. We can talk also about DevRel in a second. So and then I I got back now where I am as team lead or tech lead where, I take all the major tech decisions and I help out the team a little bit with project management and development. So a little bit yeah.

Marc:

Tech lead is the the title, but I do a little bit 3 different jobs at the same time. But

Alex:

For one salary, though.

Marc:

It is the closest. Yeah.

Alex:

Yeah. Okay. But, I mean, did this so this is still a bit mind blowing. So you started there as a freelance while still living in Mexico. You eventually moved to Germany to work there, then you left because you found out more modern things that you wanted to learn, and you've Yeah.

Alex:

You you came in touch with you. Is that, like, 2016, something like that?

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah. 16, 17 must have been something around that.

Alex:

And then then you learned it. You you showed it to the company. It was like, hey, look, This is way better. And and they were up for it saying, okay. Sure.

Alex:

We'll we'll bring it on and saw the value in that. So

Marc:

Oh, yeah. I I also made quite the stand that I had back then, it was a very, very good deal for me. For the stand that I had back then, it was a very, very good deal for me.

Alex:

Perfect.

Marc:

Also very good to know that I think of it for the company, but I was still very happy about it.

Alex:

I mean, then it's also win win. Like, if you're happy with with the the sum you got in the end and they're happy that they got some, like, modern technology, I think that's a fair way to go.

Marc:

Yeah. And on on that technology nowadays, there are, 1,000 or if not tens of 1,000 people using it every day. So that's pretty cool.

Alex:

I think that's like that's the the impact part. Like, right, if you if you do something and you think about, okay, who's using it and especially with I feel like the the b two b things is like, sure, it helps, like, businesses running and nobody knows the brand maybe. But if you then know, like, okay, look, there are, like, big businesses using the software with their end users or even the software is trying to be used by end users, and there are, like, tens of thousands of people every day, that's, in in a way also, well, like, fulfillment. It's it feels pretty good.

Marc:

I mean, it's it's hard to build for nobody. Right? To for maybe some just internal tool like NICE. I'd make the company a little bit better, but it's actually fulfilling to have this out in the world and people actually using it being deployed on a few servers and, like, have actual real world, program there, and there are also, like, some downsides to that. We can also talk about that later downsides of Yeah.

Marc:

Real or software, But, yeah, it's it's nice to have it out

Alex:

there. And I think, like, I was also talking with, certain people looking for jobs in tech and, while, of course, salary and like position and frameworks and in general, like program languages, they make a big difference. I also hear more and more people saying exactly that. Like, okay, I want to make a difference. I want that my work is some kind of impact.

Alex:

I want to be able to, I don't know, show my friends and family, like, look. Okay. Hey. This is this is what I developed.

Marc:

And

Alex:

it's ideally, it's there and people can, like, maybe they have the brand in mind or they know, oh, okay. Yeah. I got that. So that's that's a big part for some people for sure.

Marc:

Yeah. Definitely.

Alex:

And okay. So then then you said you you left the company again to do DevRel or content and bit. And then you once again joined. So 3 three times. Like, all good things are are are 3, we say, in in German.

Alex:

So yeah. And then you said you you joined different companies to do DevRel. So maybe for the people in tech that are that don't have, like, a clear definition or imagination of what DevRel means, Maybe let's start there. So what exactly is DevRel, and what was it for you while you worked on it?

Marc:

Yeah. So DevRel is a for me, it's a big umbrella term for a few different things, but basically, it means communication between the company and developers and vice versa. So like a a two way bridge between the company and the developer. So and that can take many forms. It can take the form of, just doing tutorial videos, writing blog posts, making videos, also going to conferences, talking to developers there, and understanding their needs, also showing them what the product can do and take feedback back from people to the company.

Marc:

And so that those are, like, mainly things that I did. So in the first job I I had, it was Vue storefront. So it was actually a funny thing where, I was already thinking I want to do something else. Like, maybe DevRel, I I never really mentioned it too much. And, Filip Rakowski, the CTO back then of Vue Storefront, he contacted me.

Marc:

Oh, yeah. You're going to be at, Vue. Js London, by the way. Vue. Js London here is the official market of Vue.

Marc:

Js London. Yeah. So he was like, oh, I saw you go there. I would also be there. Can can we have a talk?

Marc:

Oh, yeah. Sure. And then we talked there and he was like, yeah. We're looking for a developer advocate. So, yeah, which was like bringing the product to the people and making some demos.

Marc:

I did videos, interviews. I'm not even sure anymore. But yeah. So I did that for a year there, and then I I switched to another, job where I did a little bit different, but still developer relations stuff. So we are developers.

Marc:

They are actually a job platform, but they are most known for their conference. They have a big congress every year in Berlin with 10:10,000 attendees. And, yeah, there I helped, organize the conference. I helped with the CFP reviews, and I helped execute a format which is called code 1 code 100, which is a coding competition for developers, which was like my, like, baby project when I was there. Super cool, super fun.

Marc:

And, yeah, that's also like DevRel, like relating to developers or relations with developers, like creating cool stuff for them, cool things for them. So that's basically what DevRel is and what it was for in the companies I work for.

Alex:

Okay. I think it's a really good overview, especially with 2, let's say, very different companies, one more product based company and that's one also product, but the main also event company. So that sounds that sounds pretty interesting. You also said you were hired at Vue Storefront. I think now it's called Alokay or well, I'm not sure if the the pronunciation is right.

Alex:

But

Marc:

Yeah. They changed the name recently because it outgrew the

Alex:

Vue brand. Exactly. I'm I'm a bit sad about that, but, I mean, they had, like, a React version for ages and they are still being called Vue storefront. It's tricky. So the rebranding, of course, makes sense.

Marc:

And then

Alex:

you said you were hired as a developer advocate. Would you say that's the same as DevRel? Because, like, I I've seen, like, lots of names, like developer advocate, DevRel, Dev Education, and it's for me, it's really difficult to, like, draw a line.

Marc:

Yeah. I I think developer relations or devra is the umbrella term for it, and then developer advocate is underneath that umbrella. Developer education is also under that umbrella and, not even sure what else, but I think it is a subset of of DevRel, so developer advocate. So I think there's more you I, at least, understood if you advocate for the developer towards the company a little bit more than, like, just creating stuff, but that wasn't the title. Right?

Marc:

So I didn't actually do that as much as taking the company to the developer and talking, talking with them. So a lot of, DevRel is also many DevRel do go to conferences either as a, a partner when they have a booth there and they talk to developers to understand their needs and maybe also show the products. But others just go to make presence. They give talks, not even related to the product necessarily, and they just to have the brand they're basically representing. So this is like a very indirect way of DevRel.

Marc:

Like, you just talk about something, they get to know you, and you are basically basically the face for the of the company towards the developer community. So because developers don't want to talk to companies, they want to talk to other developers and just nerd out, about tech stuff with them. Exactly. That's exactly where this role comes in. Like, you are like one of those person people, developers want to to communicate, relate to, and and they make it easier to to talk about the company or understand the needs as well.

Alex:

That makes lots of sense. I also like that, like, DevRel is, like, the umbrella term. And as you said, in the end, it's that's, like, quote unquote, just a title. How you fill the role and how people expect you to fill the role are also, like, different like, very different to what the title is very often.

Marc:

Yeah. It's and everyone has it different. Right? Everyone uses it different. Everyone does the effort a little bit different.

Marc:

But in general, it just is a link between company and the developer.

Alex:

That makes sense. And also just to clarify that for the listeners, with developers, I mean, like, the end like, the users of, let's say, the company's products. So in terms of, like, Vue Storefront, are there people using Vue Storefront to build applications in their business, the agency, and so

Marc:

on? Yeah. Exactly.

Alex:

Okay. Because, like, developers like, sometimes you can think of, like, okay, the in house developers at the company. Probably there there are also some, like, in house DevRels, but that's Yeah.

Marc:

It really depends what the product is. Right? You you could have you could have some I don't like, let's say there would be a a dev rel for Vue. Js. So also their in house stuff, but there isn't dev rel for frameworks, which now that I think of it, why why are there not DevRels for frameworks?

Alex:

Well, I mean, I guess the DevRels are the core team members there themselves.

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah. True.

Alex:

In a way, like but I see the point. Like, companies have that because also they have the means to, well, fund these people, pay these people a salary. For frameworks, you don't really have that. I mean, as also a content creator, in a way, what you described as DevRel, in a way, I'm also doing DevRel stuff there, but so is everyone giving a talk at the conference about, like, Vue or Nuxt Yeah. To a certain extent.

Alex:

But, yeah, the the I think the fund the funding part is a big part because if you have a product and it's it's all about the conversion as well. Like, hey. If people say, like, hey. This is an amazing product we want to use in our company that can make quite some money, eventually. And with frameworks.

Marc:

Oh, that that's why frameworks and these tools have ambassadors, which is basically an unpaid dev route.

Alex:

Exactly. More or less. Yeah. Or or maybe I would say, like, these ambassadors or however you call these programs, to me, it always feels like you give you acknowledge people that are very, like, interested in the framework. They like to use it.

Alex:

They are maybe it's somewhat expert.

Marc:

Yeah. They are natural computer contributors. Right? They, like, just have fun with the tool. They are convinced of the tool, which are the best ambassador.

Marc:

So if you have to pay someone so maybe they just they are just there to to talk about the product because they are paid to. If you have an ambassador, they they are there because they really like the tool and they are convinced of it. So that's one big difference.

Alex:

Oh, absolutely. But I I also know, like, from, you probably also know Samuel Slavko from Storyblock. Yeah. I I met him when he was still working at the agency and was, like, going to all different, like, Vue. Js meetups in in Germany and, like, in general in Europe, doing a little tour.

Alex:

And eventually, because he was always advocating Nuxt and Storyblok ended up working at Storyblok with, like, his dream becoming true and now being the head of product. So I think that's also such a good example of, like, okay. Somebody is really interested in really burning for something. It can be a framework, in this case, also a product. Like, find finds the way there.

Alex:

Let's say. So, yeah, that's cool. And with with DevRel, that means also for you, I guess, less coding in the typical way because, of course, you still just had to do demos and examples, but that doesn't necessarily mean Vue anymore or, let's say you have to also cover other frameworks and platforms then.

Marc:

Yeah. Well, actually, my dev developer advocate role I had at Vue Software was strictly to Vue. Js, but I didn't code a lot there. And at Weadevelopers, I coded even less, but, one one cool thing is that, the Code 100, like, it's like a coding competition and that sort of stuff. So we have, like, a very rudimentary, like, like API and the API, like, sends the sends the requester back if the solution was correct or not.

Marc:

And in order to to see which participants have the answer right or or wrong, So that, interface is written in Vue. Js. At least back when I was there, it was written in Vue. Js. So maybe they quickly replaced it by now, but it was like it said like, okay, like, this player had it correct and at the code 100 in Berlin.

Marc:

So I was with the headset connect connected to production. So I checked my Vue app and then I said, okay. This one is, wrong. So they had, like, a 10 second, delay, so it was wrong. I I knew that it was wrong, but they didn't.

Marc:

So it say waited 10 seconds. So I had enough time to tell production, okay. There's going to be wrong for player b in 54 3, 1, and then they played like a cue of it's wrong or it's correct, like, a visual cue that that was kind of kind of fun, but also extremely stressful right there.

Alex:

Oh, I can imagine. Yes. I I was there, was, like, really, witnessing the the whole process. And I'm really curious about how the whole, like, code 100 thing, first of all, came up and, yeah, what the behind the scenes were. Like, what you're just telling now of you basically being the link between the the API and production and making sure everything goes right.

Alex:

Like, how was that in general from maybe from the idea to the process of, like, selecting the the people, maybe thinking also of the tasks to the eventual, like, final first big event?

Marc:

Yeah. So the the the main idea started from, I think from the CEO, set of, web developers. So he had the idea, oh, yeah. Let's do a coding competition, and we did a lot of meetings and iteration. How do we do it?

Marc:

So I came up with a format that where we had, I think, 5 different rounds, and then in each round, there would be people elimin And all this this process, it was very different at the beginning. So it was like, oh, yeah. Let's keep all all the participants, and they stay and they play for points. And the one with the most points wins at the end. But then we decided it's more practical and easy if we just eliminate people after round.

Marc:

So we started with 32 at the beginning and then, like, at and each round half half out half out half out. So there were, like, some challenges where where we said, like, you you have to be the fastest one to have it correct. Right? And there was, so we had to code something, and so you had, what was it? I think an anagram or something.

Marc:

You had the right function for an anagram. Yeah. So you you were given like a few words and then you have to reply with the to the API with the response for that. Something like that. I don't exactly remember.

Marc:

Yeah. So that was one part and also, like, just knowledge part, like, some quizzes with technical knowledge, like, what's, I don't know, what's an anonymous function or what who was the founder of, the World Wide Web and that sort of stuff.

Alex:

Really cool. And so that that sounds like very interdisciplinary, and everybody with, like, coding knowledge could have participated, I guess, right, no matter which language.

Marc:

Yeah. That that was a big point back then. So we were like, yeah. So we had a developer conference, not a JavaScript conference. It would have been way easier to be the specific language, right, because you can make other challenges, other questions.

Marc:

So, yeah, we decided to that's why we had an API and not some other thing, like with tests or something. So like JavaScript tests. So that's why we had the API.

Alex:

But eventually it worked out and, like, everybody, you know, matter if it's, like, Python or Java or JavaScript or whatever they want, they could probably use it. Right?

Marc:

Yeah. That that was the beauty of I don't know if they still do it that way. I I I think I saw JavaScript questions last time Mhmm. When I saw the video, but I'm I'm not really sure. But, the the main idea was or the original idea was to have

Alex:

it, agnostic. Very interesting. And in in the end, the whole, like, Code 100 thing blew up. I saw it, like, went to different cities as well, to, like, Amsterdam, to Manchester, to Zagreb, and so on. So it's, yeah, I think that that really sounds like the the first run went not only pretty well, but, like, laid a big foundation for everything that came after.

Marc:

Yeah. And I'm I'm proud of the team that they brought it further because I I I wasn't be I wasn't able to be there in Amsterdam when they did their Amsterdam version, but I saw the videos and people talking about it and it it was elevated. Again, the quality and the the mood and everything, so they they stepped it up a notch, which I'm super happy about. So, they did they did a great job taking something that I loved and I made, and they took it to the next level, which is super cool.

Alex:

So that way your legacy lives on.

Marc:

Yeah. I like to look at the Yeah. No.

Alex:

It totally makes sense. I also agree with whenever whenever I see things, we're like, okay, I I built a little part of it. And the same with with frameworks libraries. Like, it's always nice when you see they go one step further, one iteration more, doing even better, based on also your contributions. Once again, that's a big part of the fulfillment as well, I think.

Alex:

And so you you left DevRel eventually going back to, to your old company, let's say. So how did that come? Why why did you decide to leave DevRel?

Marc:

Yeah. The major reason why I left DevRel was just because I didn't get enough coding. Like, even though I I did some coding, but it was all, like, pretty, like, simple stuff, straightforward stuff, and I really missed the, like, solving real hard complex problems, like, where where you're like, oh my god, I have this information here. It needs to go there. It needs to be processed.

Marc:

So actually, you have to think about the architecture because what if in the future a client requests that this is, adjustable or something like that. So our software is extremely customizable. We have, like, a 100 buttons to customize stuff, which is pain, but, yeah, the customers love it. So, it's an a necessary evil and is actually something that sets us apart from the competition. So we are Like

Alex:

a unique selling point.

Marc:

Yeah. Unique selling point. Yeah. And, our competitive advantage, so to say. Yeah.

Marc:

So that's there was one point. I didn't get coding and I or not at the level I wanted to. I wanted to just go back to to product development, which is something that I really enjoy doing. Another thing is that, I really enjoy going to conferences and I went to when I went to conferences as DevRel, I always felt like I was restricted. Not because anybody told me, oh, yeah.

Marc:

Like, you can't say this or that, but you were there as, like, you are DevRel, so you are sort of working even if you're not, like, technically, like, there as the official position, but you are DevRel because you are the face of the company, so everybody knows who you are. And I, you know, I always felt I have to be, like, super official or something more like, I don't know. And I and it also didn't like that. I was like, yeah, I just want to be me, and that's it. And, one other point, is that creativity that, that you use in the job, especially for dev role because you have to come up with many creative ways to engage with the audience, to show people what it is the company does, and you use your creativity all day long.

Marc:

And at the at the end of day, if you want to do your own stuff, there's just blank. You just blank when when you want to to come up with something cool to do that's just to relax. Let's say, you just go to side project to relax. Might sound weird to some people. I I get off my I get off my coding and I get into some other coding to relax.

Marc:

But, yeah, that's, yeah, the the other reason.

Alex:

I see. And and all these these three reasons eventually, like, made you make the decision to to go back, and being being, like, a full time programmer again, let's say.

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah. So I, I was working for 4 days at WEAR Developers. So I had, like, one day where I could work either, on my own stuff or some other, client stuff. Yep.

Marc:

So the company reached out again to me, like, hey, would you be interested? We are a little bit shorter manpower here. Maybe you can do, like, some little things here, some little things there. I was like, yeah. Sure.

Marc:

And then when I started working on it together, I was like, oh, man. I noticed

Alex:

that. Yeah.

Marc:

Yeah. Jesus. Yeah. So yeah. I was like, oh, man.

Marc:

I this, yeah. I I need to have this back, right, in my life, coding. And they were like, hey, you know what? Like, if you like this so much, like, why don't you come back? And I was like, yeah, considering it, let let let's see the terms.

Marc:

The terms were were fine, very good, actually. And I was like, yeah. So I think this is the the right move for me. So I went as, yeah, tech lead. So it's not just development.

Marc:

It's also a little bit project management, a little bit architecture, which is which is part of development, yeah, actually. But, yeah.

Alex:

The responsibility in the end now.

Marc:

Yeah, I'm responsible for what the the team produces, which is, quite heavy on, on my shoulders sometimes. But, yeah, it's I have to, make sure that the releases go as planned. I have to make sure that the bugs are fixed as fast as possible. That's that's sort of stuff.

Alex:

Were you offered to be tech lead straight away when you came back, or were like, or did you expect that? Or were you thinking of more like the the typical, like, programming position quote unquote that you had

Marc:

before? Yeah. So I would have loved to be back as a developer, but they were like, yeah. We need someone that leads this team because we we don't have, like, a technical enough person that does this. We have a project manager, but he's not technical enough to understand the struggles or to understand when somebody says something to solve a problem for them.

Marc:

So it would be good if you could be the leader of the of the team. Team, and I was like, yeah. Sure. I led a team before in the university, so it's good. So I I I immediately started with doing some, like, changes in the processes because there were some processes that that weren't sitting right with me, and I, I enabled the the the gift function for our, eternal messenger immediately.

Marc:

First thing I did

Alex:

Very good. Yes.

Marc:

I was like, this place is a little bit too, like, come on, guys. Let's let's like, job doesn't have to be, like, also, like, stiff and stuff. Like, let's

Alex:

Yeah.

Marc:

Make a little bit, like, more fun. Right? So let's

Alex:

Really good. And Yeah. GIFs never hurts. Yeah.

Marc:

GIFs never hurt. Yeah. Exactly. People love it. People use it all the time now.

Alex:

That's the thing. As soon as there's there, the people probably didn't know what they were missing.

Marc:

Yeah. I was like, yeah. Where is this? I Googled. I was like, yeah.

Marc:

You can just enable it. You just have to generate a a Giphy key, and then you are off you're off to go.

Alex:

Easy. Easy. But then eventually you said, okay, creativity, which is which is one big point that you mentioned, then not not enough coding as well, and the conferences. So now at your new position, you can go to conferences again being just you because you're not like being the official representative of, like, the official dev rel of your company.

Marc:

Yes, man. When I went to Vue. Js, I'm sorry. I'm in dev rel. Oh, I felt so different.

Alex:

I can imagine. Yeah. Because as you said

Marc:

Yeah. The funny thing is nobody ever told me, like, be careful what you say. You can't do. It was all probably in my head, and I maybe overthought it, but I was like, oh, man. This is like back, like, in my own skin because before I was like like, with a little bit like, let's say, a facade because I'm, like, working.

Marc:

I have to be professional. And here, I could just be like me, like, which I was like, oh, man. Like, I I miss this, and I really enjoyed being at the conference again as myself. So that that was a a huge win going back. Oh, yeah.

Alex:

That's really cool. I will probably see you well, first of all, we see you in the replay videos, which will come in a bit, and we'll also have a podcast episode on VJ's MCM coming in the upcoming weeks. Nice. And probably, yeah, another conference as we mentioned. Also, most likely next year at VJ's Amsterdam.

Alex:

I'm more than sure it'll be around.

Marc:

I will. It's my it's actually my favorite conference of the year every time, and I it's always my must to. If I if I just go to one conference, I go to Visual Amsterdam because it it's actually the first conference that that accepted me as a public speaker.

Alex:

Wow. So straight away, that big screen.

Marc:

Yeah. I started 2020 actually as just because everyone was frozen because of COVID, and we just did, online stuff. So I was there for as a moderator, then some recorded talks and some live talks, and always in combination with Vuegis Amsterdam. And they were also the first ones to take me on stage with a talk and take me and I'll actually on stage as moderator, not true. That was the first time as moderator was UJS London.

Marc:

But, yeah. But I actually, when I went there 2020, I was like, oh, man. This is so cool. Like, all these people there, I want to be on that stage, and I was finally last year, the first time on the stage, as as a speaker, which was super cool experience.

Alex:

Amazing. I I didn't know that last year, it it it all felt like so so many years back, but, yes, I share the same. I remember back then, we see the screen and the people there, and it's such a vibe. It's, it's pretty amazing.

Marc:

Yeah. It's such a vibe. Yeah.

Alex:

And then so that that box is ticked. That's great. Creativity, I guess, get also better. So when you, like, now do your side projects, do you have a bit of

Marc:

Yeah. I actually haven't I haven't started now you're shaming me. No. I haven't started any any side projects yet, but this is because I'm I'm busy with with, with the flying, with you you said I'm I'm becoming a pilot. I'm still student pilot.

Marc:

I'm still putting in a lot effort there. I mean, the final stretch to, like, get it, I think it's, like, max a month away maybe to that I can get it over my maybe 6 weeks tops, but, yeah, I I want to yeah. I want to focus on that and then, yeah, I I I hope I can do some other projects. But, yeah, I I feel like more, like, ideas at least coming to me. I I don't execute them, but I wanna, like,

Alex:

oh, yeah. I can do this.

Marc:

I can do that. That wasn't before. Very strange. I was, like, so exhausted with other stuff, thinking about it all the time at work, and, I didn't have any ideas, but now ideas are coming back. So, yeah, that's awesome.

Alex:

Then then the last box, the the coding part because you set up yeah. You said you want to originally be on as a developer. Now you're on as as a tech lead slash team lead. So as you said, it's managing not only coding and probably some more responsibilities. So how does that go?

Marc:

Yeah. So at at first, they hired me for, end of last year to be strictly developer. So I was full time developer, and I got, like, some super cool tasks like some AI stuff we did, some real time transcription we built into our video software. Super cool stuff. So there I was like, I just got back in and I got this huge like I was like vomiting out all the code that I held in for 2 years and I was like, oh man, I built and I built it so fast and people were like, holy shit.

Marc:

Okay. And then in January they were like, okay, yeah, we hired you to be developer, but also to be lead. So I I then now I'm tech lead as well. So I code less and, yeah, I I manage your team and also, yeah, of course, the the struggles that come with, real life applications. So at the beginning, it's all fun and games, but when you're when you're in it, you you remember that it's a real life application.

Marc:

Real life application isn't the same as code snippets on Twitter or as your side project. So there's a lot of technical debt which is always the or I just assume always the the thing with bigger projects. And yeah.

Alex:

Okay. So that that means you're still coding quite a bit after the initial, like, code code marathon, you could say, like, just putting out all the amazing things. And, yeah. Now now you you have to manage the team. You have to be, of course, responsible for for what's happening.

Alex:

And you said it, the the legacy code part. I also have the feeling, of course, you never get fully rid of tech debt, but, of course, you can reduce it if you actively fight against it. But, how does it work at your company? How do you or, like, at your team, how do you handle, like, legacy code, technical depth? How do you make sure that it doesn't pile up that quickly?

Marc:

Yeah. So the thing is it's already piled up.

Alex:

Okay. So we're already here. Yeah.

Marc:

Yeah. So yeah. Because yeah. You know how it is. You're working in enterprise, and it's like we need the features.

Marc:

We need to satisfy the clients. And then the, while I was gone for 2 years from the company, it piled up, and it never got worked off. What what now we are doing is I have a a refactoring or a tech debt backlog, which every never sprint, I take at least a few things in. Even if we don't have a lot of time, I try to take at least a few small things in. So this spring, for example, we finally moved from, multiple repositories to 1 mono repo, which, I wanted for for the longest time because, we have these types in the back end and I want the types in the front end.

Marc:

And I know there are other ways to do this, like with tRPC and that sort of stuff, but I think that's more even more overhead for what we have going on, in our codebase. And I was like, yeah, if we just have a monorepo, we have one package that's all the types, and then we can use it in both front end and back end. That's already a huge thing because now the back end is typed and the front end is typed with any. So not typed.

Alex:

Not at all.

Marc:

So not not at all. It's like it yeah. But now we're adding more and more types, so it's it's all moving in the right direction. So my approach here for like doing big things in like complex environment is doing it, like, really step by step. You don't have to make big change.

Marc:

Like, this was a big change to monorepo thing, but we had we had it coming. But there's also, like, for example, we have one component that has a few thousand lines of code and we can simp yeah. We can simplify it quite easily. So take out and, externalize into some other files

Alex:

Yep.

Marc:

And build some split up into some components. I think with little, effort, we have, like, a very overviewable component again, and we have it, like, better developer experience because, like, when you have I think the component is 4,000 lines big. So it's it's, like, our biggest component. And when you, the types run super slow, the type checks run super slow, the the printer runs super slow. So the the the the linter so data developer experience actually, like, factually suffers because it's so big.

Marc:

So it's everything is slow. The suggestions are slow. Slow. So, yeah. So all these little changes, like, getting better, like, what's his name?

Marc:

The the author of, Atomic Habits. He he was right. Like, do, like, small changes, and the small changes add up. Like, you do, like, something a little bit better here, something a little bit better there. And then if you do that over a period of time, like, 3 months, 6 months, a year, then you you end up being in quite a better shape than you were a year ago.

Marc:

So that's that's my that's my go to move for complex projects like this. You, like, you can't go, like, rambo rambling in with some huge change. For example, now we we have, one tech that we also have is bootstrap view. We have bootstrap view, and I think it's not maintained anymore, and it's not really compatible with view 3. It's compact mode.

Marc:

You have to enable it. The compact mode gives us some headaches that we want to get rid of, and, yeah, we are looking now for for an alternative, for example, PrimeView. We are looking at PrimeView as as our primary, alternative. But now, yeah, how do you how do you do that? How do you change everything into, like, another component library?

Marc:

Like, we we use, 100, if not thousands of these components. So it's also like we have to integrate the the the new component library, and then we have to do step by step. We maybe we just start with the buttons.

Alex:

Yeah. Probably.

Marc:

Then we add some text fields or something, like, little by little because if not, we would have to stall production for, like, 2 or 3 months to just

Alex:

That's not possible.

Marc:

Yeah. So it's like the show the show must go on. Right? So, yeah, small small steps into the right direction gets you there.

Alex:

I agree. With with regards to the switch of, like, a component library, I also like, I like the approach of what you do with, like, databases or anything else with the wide and narrow approach. So you basically say, like, okay. Let's, let's have for components, just abstract, Add one more component that encapsulates this, let's say, boostra view button, and then you use it everywhere. And at some point, you say, replace that component with the the prime view equivalent, and it works everywhere.

Alex:

That's the, let's say, the ideal way. And while while you're still in migration, you can allow, okay, if this is, like, the the old props or the old code, then this still works or you have, like, some flag or something with a new thing. So you widen the component to say, I accept both, and somebody narrow it down again. I I think that could also work well.

Marc:

Yeah. Definitely. Now that you mentioned, like, also database widen and broaden and making smaller. Like, that's always my my thing. Like, when I design something in the database, I was like, oh, we have to have this and this and this, and then I have, like, a super complex thing and I want and then I'm like, Do we really need it to be so complicated and then we reduce it and then we have, like, a very nice so it's like a process.

Marc:

Right?

Alex:

Of course.

Marc:

It is. That takes time. Like, you want the whiteboard? I don't have a whiteboard here, but I do it on paper. In the company, we have a whiteboard.

Marc:

I have to go to the company every 2 weeks. It's it's quite a long drive. But,

Alex:

From Luxembourg to Germany, just

Marc:

so From Luxembourg to Cologne, it's like a 3 hour drive coming back on the same day. So 6 hour drive

Alex:

Wow.

Marc:

And 8 hours work. So it's not my favorite thing to go there.

Alex:

It's a it's a long time for sure. Yeah. But I hope you you can spend the time in your car very well, for example, if I listen to podcasts or audiobooks.

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah. I, I caught up on all the syntax. I, or deja vu.

Alex:

Heard of it.

Marc:

One other that I listened, what how is it called? Web whiskey and whatnot. Also like that.

Alex:

Oh, yeah.

Marc:

Really cool. Because I like Whiskey, but, maybe I'm biased. But, yeah. So podcast listening, great for like, I have 6 hours of podcasts, so I am smarter when when I when I get back in the evening. So at at least that.

Marc:

Right?

Alex:

Yeah. That's true. At least, some compensation for the long commute time.

Marc:

Yeah.

Alex:

But so in in terms of I think in terms of being a a team lead and tech lead, you said, okay. Somehow, like, you you are in a way the the bridge between, like, the business with the requirements. You have responsibility for what the team does. And how do you usually try to balance it out with, like, I said, okay. There are new features that have to be made.

Alex:

On the other side, technical depth. And the developers might also come around with, hey. We have this cool new, I don't know, library or this thing that makes things easier, or can we try this out? And, this is a pain point because this 4,000 plus lines component, is is so slow. So how how do you see your strategy to, like, in in a way, make it good for both sides?

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah. 1st, I I try to fill out the business side because, like, without the business, we we can't go. And then I I tried to fill out how urgent things are and how how hard the deadlines are. If I see it's they are not so urgent and the deadlines are not so hard or a little bit further away, I I see I I can take in a few more, refactoring tasks, right, of some some few other tasks to, satisfy the developers in something they want to try out or something like that.

Marc:

So I always first check the the business end and then I I try to get other thing going. It's probably not the the best approach for developers, but I I think it's still a business and this is yeah. I I always try to balance it out a little bit, but sometimes it's really, like, we have to do these features, like, if not, like, their, like, competitors are doing something similar or, like, we just have to go to market with this, and then you have to table the refactorings for another day. And this is like an issue if it happens often, which in the past it had, but, you have the more you try to avoid it, the the better. Right?

Marc:

So and it's usually not, like, super urgent everything. So there's always a little bit of wiggle room to integrate some things that development, let's say, development wants to have.

Alex:

That's a fair point. I I agree with the business side for sure. Like, without the the business part, well, you you don't have a job. The team doesn't have a job. And that that makes sense.

Alex:

And I also am a big fan of developers are at least a little bit interested in the business side, right, understanding why certain things are important because that can help understanding why, for example, the refactor is once again postponed or why we need this feature instead of, like, working on this and that. I think that also would help a lot.

Marc:

Yeah. I try to communicate that to my team as good as I can that, look. We have this situation. We need to build this now and, like, try to explain why the feature is important to the to the end customer as well. Right?

Marc:

To the to the person that you end user. Right? Yep. So, because some things may seem like, do we really need that? Like, yeah, you would think that you don't, but some people really, really do, really, really would love to have it.

Marc:

So we need to build it, and they need to have it because of this and this use case, and then it's, okay. Okay. That makes sense. So, also some things that I'm like, oh my god. Why are we adding another another goddamn switch to customize it?

Marc:

And it is like, yeah, we have this customer that has a 100, like, we have this video in in in Germany. It's like a video terminal, which is sitting at our clients where people can communicate with an operator. And so, yes, they want to intake they want to switch their video terminals to our and they have a 100 of them, and they have this requirement. If not, they won't do it. So it's like, okay.

Marc:

If we do this feature, we have a 100 new licenses to give away. Exactly. Easy money.

Alex:

Yeah. But if the developer doesn't know that, of course, like, why do we need yet another thing? Is it really necessary? So I I think moving the the business and the developer sides closer together, that helps out also for both sides given, like, if you say, hey, to the business, let's say, oh, there's techno technological depth. There's tech depth.

Alex:

And, like, we have to get away from that. We have to reduce it somehow. I think they also can see the value in that by saying, hey. Like, new features will be, like, implemented faster, less bugs, and so on and so on.

Marc:

Yeah. The the the good thing is, the company where I work for, I have the the cut blanche from the CEO to to handle the team however I see fit. So if I see fit to do a certain refactor, I just do it. The only the only thing they say is, like, you just need to make sure that we have we are on on schedule with our features that we want to ship the rest. It's you you have you can do whatever you want, basically.

Marc:

So you it's up to you. So, on one side, very cool because I can do a lot of stuff. I already changed a lot of processes, upset a lot of people not a lot of people. I upset a few people on the way because they're like, ah, yeah. Do we really want this?

Marc:

Do we really want the mono repo? I was like, yes. You want the mono repo. Just believe

Alex:

You will see it.

Marc:

Yeah. You will see. You will see. And, yeah. So that's that's one good point.

Marc:

So you have a lot of, like, power and you can make a lot of change for the team, but at the other side, it's a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. It's like like, if it doesn't work, it's probably your fault. Right? Because you you managed some you did something something, not so good. So maybe you took too much refactorings and maybe you didn't explain the stories well enough to, or you didn't just grab the stories well enough to to the developers or, you made a bad technical decision or something.

Marc:

But it's also like, our culture is very, like, not, how do you say, not not blaming. It's like, yeah. Okay. We have this issue. It's not like who did it.

Marc:

It's like, who was it? It's more like, okay. We have this issue. Now we have to solve it. Like, you have to come up with with a quick solution, an efficient solution to solve it.

Marc:

So it's also not an issue, but it's still, like, you still want to do a great job and not have to solve, an an emergency. Right? So,

Alex:

Of course. Especially not every Friday or something like that.

Marc:

Oh, yeah. You have yeah. When I when I hear people, oh, yeah. Maybe we can deploy on Friday. Nope.

Marc:

We will deploy on Monday.

Alex:

That's that's the best idea. Yeah. Let's not ruin other people's weekend. We really don't want that. Yeah.

Alex:

But, yeah, I mean, coming coming back to the carte blanche, I think that's pretty cool to that you have the opportunity to, like first of all, the opportunity also responsibility to to lead a dev team as you want because that's usually, this is actually the opposite of micromanaging. Right? They're still like, okay. We hired you to do your job. Do your job as long as as the output is right, as long as the deadlines we agreed to will be met most of the time, of course, mistakes can always happen, then that's great.

Alex:

So that's something I wish would happen more in companies because I see it so often that, like, things are micromanaged and things don't go that well mainly because of that.

Marc:

Yeah. Micromanagement is is not great. I also put a lot of effort into not micromanaging my team even if I'm like, oh my god. Don't do that. Don't do that.

Marc:

Do it this way, but I'm I'm like, okay. Like, let's not micromanage stuff. Like, it's like yeah. I think one reason why they do this is because they know me for a long time. I have been working with them for, like, over for through this legacy product, project.

Marc:

Then I brought them back this modernized thing, and now I'm I'm leading it. So they know my skills. They know what they are buying. So Yeah. I think yeah.

Alex:

Did you know you know the inside outs? Right? Also, you knew before, okay, there was lots of legacy code. You knew what would expect you in a way. Yeah.

Marc:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex:

So that that also helps, plus the the trust that came over the years. And, all in all, I think it's it's it's such an amazing story, to to eventually go back for the 3rd time to a company, eventually becoming a team and and tech lead with especially all the things before all the experience gained. So, yeah, that's that's really cool.

Marc:

Yeah. Oh, wow. We went over the time. You said, like Yeah. Yeah.

Marc:

Often you have half an hour. You try to shoot for half an hour.

Alex:

I'm like, half an hour, 45 minutes here. We are at over an hour. Yeah. The longest episode so far in in Deja View. And Yeah.

Alex:

That you that might be the time to to wrap it up because there are a few more things on the list maybe for another episode. Like, we could talk about more about your personal brand, for example. We could talk about more about aviation, those slides are a topic, but, I'm I'm really curious. So

Marc:

Oh, yeah. Man, I can talk hours about that, so let's not start. Yeah. Let's keep it

Alex:

for another episode. Is there anything is there anything else that, that we missed out? Anything that's like, hey. Why didn't we mention this? Then that's your chance, Omar.

Marc:

No. We we went pretty thorough through all the the major points that that we laid out to. So I'm I'm pretty happy with the with the content we have here.

Alex:

Perfect. Great. Then, last but not least, Mark, where can people

Marc:

follow you? Oh, yeah. I'm most active on x or Twitter at, yeah, just in the show notes, there will be my my link. So that's my DMs are open if you have any question about anything. I don't post as much anymore as I used to, but I I still post memes, which is

Alex:

Very important. Yes. Exactly.

Marc:

Very important. I I post jokes, tag jokes, but also useful stuff, not not only, stupid things. And I try to be helpful. So, but that's yeah. That's where you can find me.

Marc:

I'm also in Instagram, but don't really use it that much. So x is the way to find me.

Alex:

Perfect. Then, yeah. Thank you so much, Mark, for coming along, sharing your story, your experiences, and I'm super stoked about what all the people think, what their input is, and hope to see you very soon again, either in person or another episode, another call. Who knows? Thanks for coming along.

Marc:

Sure. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Alex, and thanks for everyone, tuning in.

Alex:

Of course. Then, yeah, everybody, see you in the next episode of Data View or the last ones. Keep in touch and stay tuned, folks. Bye bye.

Marc:

See you. Bye.