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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Jesse French
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Jesse French and today I'm joined by my good friend Cody Buriff. Hello Cody.
Cody Buriff
Hey, everybody. It's good to be here.
Jesse French
Good to have you here.
Cody Buriff
Good to be here.
I Jesse, I'm gonna I'm gonna just plunge us right in.
Jesse French
Okay, let's do it.
Cody Buriff
All right, I got a question for you. And you don't know, just so everybody knows, we talked a little bit about what we're gonna talk about, but we did not, I didn't tell Justin.
Jesse French
I have not been prepped. I'm just going to hedge it and say, when I just, you know, out and flub this, I didn't know. there's my hedge.
Cody Buriff
Alright, so Jesse, your kids are 14, 12, and 10, right?
Jesse French
Yep. Do you
Cody Buriff
Do you remember the last time one of them grabbed your hand and held your hand like walking through a parking lot or something?
Jesse French
Yeah. Dang code. That's a good question. And I do remember it was probably seven or eight days ago. Okay. We were on, on our family spring break trip and we were walking to dinner one night and I was walking next to Grace. It's my middle daughter. She's 12 and we're just walking to dinner and walking down the street on the sidewalk and just grab my hand.
And yeah, I remember it. Like partly that's not a typical thing for her. And just the surprise of that. And I was like, ⁓ that's really sweet. So yeah, I do. That's awesome. And I remember it and it felt like an important thing. So yeah, I was really grateful for it.
Cody Buriff
It's kind of fun. Now you're an older daughter. Does she still grab your hand ever?
Jesse French
Hmm. Less. Not. Yeah. And as I'm saying that, I'm like, when was the last time?
Cody Buriff
Right. The reason I ask, like my boys, my boys are 16 as of like a couple of weeks ago. Yep. They obviously aren't grabbing my hand anymore. It's not a thing. 16 year old boys do. And it was I think I realized that, I don't know, a year ago, two years ago, I was like, oh, that season definitely over. Yep. And I probably realized that because my daughter would still grab my hand. You know, it would be.
I'd go to the grocery store and we'd be walking in from the car through the parking lot and she reached up and just grabbed my hand. was automatic. And I feel like here in the last year that has decreased as she has, you know, she, she's 12 and a half now. And I'm realizing like, okay, that's going away. In fact, I can't remember exactly the last time, exactly when that happened, but I remember that probably for the last year when it happens, when it has happened.
I take note and I am pretty like intentional to like enjoy it. It only lasts a few seconds. You know, it's like you get into the store and they let go and you're running around grabbing apples and whatever. But like, there's this like, dang, like this season is about over. She's not going to be grabbing my hand much longer. That's right.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so the fact that it is more of a, the scarcity or the dwindling nature of that, like has increased the awareness of when that does happen. like, Oh yeah, this is a significant thing. These instances are numbered.
Cody Buriff
Totally. With my boys, I didn't think that way at all. Sure. know, first time through having kids go through, like I wasn't aware of it. In fact, I bet I pushed it away in some ways, like maybe even subconsciously. Interesting. Like they need to grow up, they need to get, I get to the point where they're not holding dad's hand anymore or whatever. And, you know, I don't know. I don't remember having that conversation, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's how I felt a couple of years back.
I bring that up, Jesse, because our kids' lives move quickly. You know, I've heard you say plenty of times, like, the days are long, but the years are short.
And I think there is like something to the being intentional. Yeah, let's put it differently. I think as dads, like we can have great intentions, but that doesn't mean that we actually live in the moment and do something with those intentions. There is a difference.
Jesse French
Yeah, you're saying, and hopefully this isn't semantics, you're saying there's a difference between having good intentions and actually being an intentional human. Like the intentional human is the one who actually acts on the intentions they
Cody Buriff
Yes.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like, I mean, maybe to put it a lot more bluntly, like our kids are not raised by our good intentions. Yeah. And they'll never remember what we hoped to do. No. Like they're raised by what we do and they remember what we do.
Jesse French
Yeah, maybe if we're being blunt, perhaps there's the un-executed hopes that they're aware of, would imagine probably are like, yeah, maybe actually once, you know what I mean? I'm like, you know, I heard my dad talk about doing this and he never followed through on it. That's a zinger. Cody, it's interesting. Like, I think it's a helpful thing that we're trying to unpack here today around
Cody Buriff
Maybe actually worse.
Yeah, totally.
Jesse French
surfacing, what, what are our intentions and our desire, especially as we think about our kids and then kind of that, the transfer from that into actual implementation. Why do you think it's so easy to kind of live in that space of, it be great, you know, down the road next week, next month, next year, if we did A, B and C, like I find for myself, that's a very comfortable place to live in to like idea like, yeah, that'd be sweet to do.
this, this, and this with my, with my kids. But the translation of that is much different. So kind of from your perspective, why is that the case? Like, why is that even just that first place of to have this kind of wealth of potential things? Why is that easy to be in?
Cody Buriff
Well, I kind of want to back up for a quick second and say that this is true of all of us like dad or not talking about fathering our kids or whatever or not. Like we all kick the can down the road. We all have these ideas that we like shove off and don't tackle because X, Y, or Z. And so it's like, I think the fathering piece, it just highlights it maybe emphasizes a little extra, but it's like,
You know, all of us are like, I should probably eat better or maybe I should go, you know, exercise occasionally or whatever the thing is, you know, but then we don't, you know, I should start that little business or I should whatever. think the reason a lot of the reason why we sit there is one, it's easier. Frankly, there's a lot less threat or danger. There's a lot less commitment.
And therefore like work required or effort required. And then I think, you know, so there's the easiness factor, but then there's also like the fear factor. Yeah. You know, I think there's a scarcity that can come along and scare you into believing that you're not ready. And therefore. Yes. You need to keep preparing or get more stable or save up just a little bit more money or whatever, you know,
before you can do the thing. Yeah.
Jesse French
I think that's exactly right. think so Cody and I work together and for you guys listening and one of the phrases that I like that Cody says every now and then is we'll be working together on something and ideating and he'll say this phrase he's like this may be a bad idea but I'm going to say it anyways and usually they're not bad ideas but I always appreciate it because it just feels like hey I'm just naming and I've started to say too like I'm just saying out out loud like I'm throwing this out there with you know yeah it's a head against the wall right
And some of the beauty of that, right? And again, is in this idea of space. It's very safe. Like, yeah, let's, let's throw this out here. And you're right to then take the pool of potential things and to then say, okay, now we're going to act on that to pursue that. Yeah. Now we absolutely are in the fear factor of, now the rubber is meeting the road. We're going to find out like, this a terrible idea? Is it going to flop? Is it going to land? Like.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Yeah. So Jesse, what's that like for you when you're in that space of like, do I commit? Do I not commit? That sounds cool. Maybe I want to do this with my kids. Maybe I want to do this even with restoration project or whatever, right? As the executive director, like what is it like for you to kind of have good intentions and have tons of options, but then actually have to like commit to something.
Jesse French
Yeah. I think one of the ways that I have mitigated or navigated that dynamic is, and I use the word mitigated cause it's, mitigating the fear, right. Of to go after something. There is the risk of how will this land, right? With my kids as a staff, you know, and so one of the ways that I've navigated that is like, it can be very, it's very easy for me to say, let's mitigate that by obtaining consensus.
Like, let me, let me float this even to my kids of like, Hey, you know, what, what would it feel like if we went and spent the afternoon doing this? Like in that, what I'm really trying to do is to prime and mitigate the risk factor of, don't want this to flop. And so I will kind of shift almost that decision off to the other person of like, well, I'm just being the good dad to say like, do they want to do that? And then really the onus is now on my, my kid or as a staff to be like, ⁓ what do think Cody?
It can push that off of my plate onto the other person that then that gives me kind of the excuse or the out of like, well, they said that. And so really like, I'm just going along with the flow. And so it insulates me from the risk of saying, I think this is, let's go do this, follow me. And it insulates me from the risk of that flopping or that person being like that was.
Cody Buriff
Oof.
Somebody throwing a fit.
Jesse French
or, you know, like work wise, you get into it and be like, this is not a good idea. There's some really challenging things about this.
Utily. And I think it's the least for me, like it is the vulnerable thing to risk saying, and we'll put it relationally, like I had you in mind, but we're going to go and do this with in pursuit of connection with you. Right. And the risk of this, maybe it flops, maybe it's like, Oh yeah, this is a bummer. And to me, that feels like the failure piece of just like, Oh my gosh, I tried my hand at this thought it was going to be this sweet mechanism of connection. didn't happen.
Hey, that's the piece from like, gosh, let's do whatever we can to make sure that doesn't happen.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. When it does fail and it like, it totally just like reinforces.
Jesse French
It does. And the reason I asked for other people's thoughts is if I don't, then like, who does that fall back on? The way I interpret it is like, well, that was on me. I have no one else to, you know, pass the buck to, but like, this was my thought. And here we are.
Cody Buriff
I think the one that piece that I'm aware of at least that kind of gets in my way is probably more the one I've had to fight against let's put it that way has been more like scarcity piece
Jesse French
Yeah, say more like the scarcity of
Cody Buriff
Yeah. So thinking about, yeah, thinking about family or work or whatever, might be like scarcity of time or scarcity of money or scarcity of energy, maybe even like, so I can make it real big and say like, we want to go do this like really cool family vacation, but we don't have enough money yet. Or we don't have enough, like whatever the kids aren't ready. I'm not, you know, I got too much to do with work. I don't know. Whatever it is, right. There's like a scarcity thing there that like,
maybe next year or maybe next year or whatever. But then if you like bring it way back in, you know, on a Thursday evening, my daughter's like, Hey, you want to play some Legos? And I'm like, I'm tired. I don't really want to do that right now. You know, and there's a scarcity of energy and or at least in my head, there's a scarcity of energy. And it's like, if I'm to make it through the rest of the night and I become grouchy, then I need to like.
Jesse French
Sure.
Cody Buriff
conserve my energy and sit here on this couch and scroll into nothing. know, it's just dumb, right? Yep. I think both of those are like a, kind of this like scarcity, you know, fear of not having.
Jesse French
I think that's a really helpful category. We've talked about it a little bit before, like, or scarcity of relational ability, like kind of go back to my, know, like, will I be able to, so like take my daughter out to coffee. We've got an hour together. Like, is there enough connective ability to like navigate that and, have that be the sweet time of connection versus.
Cody Buriff
This is going to be awkward.
Jesse French
Right. Well then there again, right? Like, is there enough for this to be able to happen?
Cody Buriff
That's interesting. I wonder how we overcome that. What is the hinge or the, that fulcrum that takes us out of the like willingness to kind of put it off or it never happens. We've got great intentions, great ideas, but we never actually put them into action. Like what gets us into action mode and attending mode, attention mode and out of just intention mode.
Jesse French
Yeah. I mean, I think where my mind goes first, Cody is, I'm sure we've probably talked about this before, but like, when I am operating from a mode that says like, I'm the lead actor, so to speak, like the plot is up to me to like drive that forward. When I'm in that mode, that is like the key holder, right? Of like, you know, what resources do we have? What resources do I have? It's all up to me.
to figure out how to use that when it's, when that mindset is one where like, it's all up to me to be able to make this coffee time with my daughter, not flop and to just hit a home run. Like, I think when I'm in that mode, that just confirms, let's just live in the land of intentions and not actually risk. Totally. Right. And so because of that, it's like, well, let's just stay there. Right. Versus.
Cody Buriff
That sounds paralyzing.
Jesse French
I think when there is a greater sense of like, Hey, my presence matters, but I'm not the generator. Like we say it all the time. People, listeners are probably like, we get it. Stop saying this. like when I am able to have a sense of like, I get to participate in the life of my kids and the life of my family and my work, I get to participate, but I don't have to generate and be like the one on the hook when I can actually view ultimately God's restorative work is something that I'm joining.
think there is more of an ability to say like, great, let's actually move from the place of intentions to action. And to able to say like, yeah, it might flop. This is true. I might feel some of the rub of like, but I think that's some of the starting point, at least for me, because otherwise the stakes just feel too high and it's too risky if it's like all on me.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. I mean, that sounds like the comparison basically of like fear versus faithfulness. Or it's like what you described before was acting out of fear and scarcity and all that. Right. But like when we put ourselves in the right place on the bus and remember who's actually in control, like there's a freedom to follow, you know, faithfully follow the call on us. Yes.
You know, and yeah, like they're a thing. Obviously there's things like with work that like, yeah, ultimately it's our responsibility and we got to whatever, but it's like, actually, you know, we might be responsible to be faithful to show up and we actually don't control the results as much as we think we do. Sometimes not at all. Like sometimes you can work your butt off and nothing happens. And other times you just show up and somehow.
The sky just started raining, you know, blessings all over the place or something. Whatever, right? Like.
Jesse French
Yep. Yep. I think that's exactly right. What else would you add to that, Cody, like in your own life, as you think about kind of making some of that shift from the good intentions to actually acting on that.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, I love what you said. think what I would add from what I've seen is probably...
The best way I'm thinking of it right now to say it is like a different scarcity. It's the thing that is actually scarce. Everything else feels scarce, like money or energy or whatever, but the actual thing that is scarce is our time. We can't make more time. We can make more money, we can't make more time. And it's probably, it applies to all the things, like our lives are limited and how we invest our time matters, especially early, but it's like,
I think it probably shows up most with our kids. That's why I brought up the handholding thing at the beginning was like the time slips away quickly. And when I can remember the, dang, I have two years left between now and the time my boys are graduating high school. got two freaking years, 16 of them are gone. That ain't much, right? We're at like 10 % left kind of.
Jesse French
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
season and it's like, dang, I got it. I we got to do the thing. I'm running out of time, you know, and probably a lot of that lesson is learned by missing windows of opportunity.
Jesse French
the
Cody Buriff
I can't push them on the swing anymore. Yeah. not going to have, you know, stuff like that is helpful. Just reminders of like, okay, I have a limited amount of time. I can't just have good ideas that we actually have to do, do the thing.
Jesse French
Totally. And I wonder if maybe that's like some of the pairing of what you're talking about of like the acknowledgement of this is true. There is a limited amount of this and also that connected to like, I am a participant in this. it doesn't, it doesn't all rest on me. Right? Like, I don't know. I'll just give a caricature of the guy that's like on YouTube and he's the dude who like wakes up at
402 every morning and drinks his like spinach shake and then does like 500 burpees and then like, you know that guy like just the crazy disciplined.
Cody Buriff
Perfect.
Whatever.
Jesse French
Like he rings every second of his day for like maximum productivity and return. I think that's the, obviously we're laughing, but like it's sort of that side of the spectrum too, that I think like we could swing to where it's like, my gosh, I'm going to, I'm going to regret proof my life by like doing everything right. And I think I'm the danger of that is like, that's laughable. Right. Do know what I mean? And it's laughable too, to say like, look,
We're not going to drop it and we're not going to miss windows. And so can also be kind of held with this eyes wide open of yes, let's maximize it. The time is absolutely limited and we get to participate too. So it's not just be superhuman.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, right. Yeah. The phantom dad, the phantom, you know, worker, the phantom husband, whatever doesn't exist. That's true. ⁓ that's not the target actually. Like, yeah.
Jesse French
So true.
Yeah. And I even wanted to, I think there's probably some really, potentially really great lesson. I even hesitate to say that, like, I think about our kids and I'm, gave the example of like, don't want it to flop, you know, like I only want it to succeed. man, what a mess to say like, man, our kids never see us when we botch it. Right. Like I remember talking with a friend of mine who's as older kids.
And we were, was him and then another guy who had kids the same age and he's like, and his son was 13 at the time. And my other buddy said like, nah, I think it's probably really important that your 13 year old son like sees his dad fall. And, and you know what I mean? Like, so there's even that piece of it like, golly, that's gosh, we miss it. it's, oh man, my dad only crushes it. Like number one, that's laughable. And number two.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally.
Right. It's not just see you fail. It's still like, see what you do with that failure. Yeah. didn't see you fail. And they're going to see you like screw up the relationship you have with them. For sure. You know, and all the things, right? It's like, how do we, how do we, you know, repair breaches? How do we bounce back and have resilience when we fail? Like what's that look like? It's all teaching them something about ourselves and about them.
Jesse French
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Another thought I have that comes to mind, Jesse, is like, I know for a lot of us, when it comes to taking ideas or intentions or whatever and actually putting them into action is actually sitting down and putting them in the calendar.
Like that's a real practical piece of it. Like everything else we've talked about is kind of a little more philosophical. This is real practical of like, well, you, they say what you don't schedule doesn't happen, you know, like, yeah, that's pretty true. Yep. So I wonder, like, I'll just ask you, like, what are some examples of things that if they either aren't in your calendar or aren't in part of your routine that you've established may not happen or what are some things that guys could put into their calendar or could put into their routine to try to. ⁓
You know?
Jesse French
I'll just give one that is it's real fresh. It is absolutely in the camp of like, this is an idea that I had that has not translated at all. So, into actual implementation. So we'll just hopefully be real. I've had the idea specifically around my, around my two daughters of like, they're almost 14 and 12. They're like sensing the shift, right? That they're making into their teenage years and.
recognizing that, recognizing my own desire, like to engage them well, but kind of feeling like in some ways the language is changing, right? And trying to learn some of that. So I've, had the idea like, man, I want it to be like to write them a letter, maybe like once a month and to write them a letter and not give them that letter until they like graduated high school of like, Hey,
Here's some thoughts and the contents of that. I don't have brilliant ideas around. It could just be like, Hey, this is what I'm seeing right now. This is some sweet time that we enjoy. This is what I'm wrestling through. Like, I don't know all of what those contents are, but to say, look, I'm, going to give them my own words and my own thoughts in a way that, that then they could do with what they want, you know, in, a future time. And there's something about that. think some of the draws like that feels like that kind of would invite some of my own voice, probably that's helpful in ways that I want to offer that to them, but don't.
totally know how to do that. So that's one has very much just lived in the like, wouldn't that be cool idea that has not translated.
Cody Buriff
Okay, so let's get real for a minute. Like, why hasn't that translated yet?
Jesse French
Yeah. I mean, on one level, like you're totally right. The like calendaring out piece of it has not happened. I have not said like, you know, Hey, this is, this is the date and time piece of it. think there is there for sure. Some of the fear of like, I sit down at the desk with the pen and like, what do I say? Do they read, you know, like the worries of they get this when they graduate and they're like, I roll. This is garbage. Like that sort of internal track. Those are the kind of thoughts that come to mind.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. I got a friend. He's actually a Grove guy who started an email account for his son. I think he started it when he was born. Maybe it was when he went to elementary school. I don't remember, but long time ago and his son graduated about a year ago and he gave him the password to that email address. Wow. And he's been sending him emails his whole life.
Jesse French
My gosh.
Cody Buriff
Like hundreds of emails, like, you know, I don't know if he calendared like, okay, the first Monday of every month, I'm gonna write him an email and just kind of tell them what's going on and what I'm thinking and feeling and whatever. But I know like when he would go through like hard seasons, you know, him personally or his son or whatever, like he would write an email, you know, or that kind of thing. And, and gave it to his son a year ago and just like.
As you would imagine. Yeah. Such the incredible gift.
Jesse French
What like creativity and forethought and discipline like holy well done.
Now we're like, gosh. ⁓
Cody Buriff
But yeah, Jesse, like you could do that.
Jesse French
This is true. This is true.
Cody Buriff
So what's it going to take?
Jesse French
Yeah, as I'm saying this I'm like well crap. I just put it out there into the world of the podcast so now I'm like I better not flake on it so
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe some of what I'm as I think about that that feels like there's some sort of tension of the of the discipline to it of the scheduling of the practical like, okay, this is the time and place that is also again held holding the hand of like graciousness, right of like, okay, yes, I will not be perfect at this. This is not the like 402 intensity crazy man. Like I will botch it. And I think also like
Again, the motivation of this is I'm not doing this to like earn the intentional dad checkbox, right? I'm doing this out of care for my kids, out of my love for my daughters. And so that's the motivation of it. It's not so that I can, you know, feel like that box is checked internally and now like I earned it. I got the grade, right? So I think some of those, those are some of the thoughts that come to mind of like, kind of the, some of the underlying motives or things that need to be addressed.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, we've got a good mutual friend I was talking to just the other day. He's got some like ideas, business ideas for, for ways that he could engage his business differently and do some much more like intentional curated things that I'm not going to get into specifics, but he's been putting it off for years. It's like been just idea phase for years and I pushed them on it. was like, schedule the thing for September.
And start like advertising it or whatever, like, you know, make the webpage that does the thing. Like I think in all these categories of our lives, fatherhood work, uh, you know, even hobbies for that, know, like you've said, like you can have great ideas and then the time slips by and you realize that window of opportunity passed. so we've got to like,
Make ourselves sit down and figure out like, what's more important to me? Is it my love for my daughter or my fear that she's going to think I'm an idiot? You know, is it the potential like freedom and an awesome idea, a business idea, or is it the fear that it's going to flop and then I'm not going to know what I'm doing? Is it that I'm not going to have enough money or my kids aren't going to have the memories that we could make?
If I spent the money, you know, that's the challenge in front of us. You know, that's talking about is you can have lots of good ideas. Good intentions.
Jesse French
Yes. Totally.
With a sober and gracious posture, right? The sobriety of like, let's not beat around the bush. Let's actually say what is true of what you just said. Right. And to do that with the gracious, like, yeah, I think. Have you been around people like that, Cody, who you feel like, they live a life where there is like, on one hand, this like disciplined, thoughtful, actual executing on the things that they want that is.
done in the spirit of like humility of participation. It's like the right. It's the opposite of the like efficiency, freaking champion guy who's, know,
Cody Buriff
Yeah. I would say yes. Say they're, they're hard to find sometimes. And it's not because of the humility. It's not because of the intentions. It's, think those guys are the ones who are willing to admit that they probably fail more often than they actually do it and get it right. And yet they do it anyway. And they've learned how to treat their flops is just like, that was a good lesson. You know, as opposed to like.
beating themselves up over and over again. Or just becoming to the fear and letting that win, you know? But yeah, there's not a ton of those kinds of guys.
Jesse French
You know, I wonder too, how, cause I would agree. And maybe some of that is like, I think there's also probably an element of, cause I think those people exist and the faithfulness to what is theirs to do is not always super visible. Right. Like that's actually some of the point of like, they are faithful to that and it's not billboarded. And that's not why they do that. Right. It's like, they're probably aware of that, but the people around them, like,
They're not shouting it from the rooftops. Like, so I think that's this kind of this like secrecy. say that word in like the positive bent of like spiritual discipline side of it of like, feels like.
Cody Buriff
It's true, it's available to all of us. It doesn't have to be, you know, not knowing anybody. You'd actually actually all can do that. Yeah.
Jesse French
Well, dang it, Cody, thanks for ninja-ing me a little bit on this podcast. And I'm grateful for the conversation and that invitation towards risk and risk in the best sense.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Don't think of it just as an invitation to risk. It's an invitation to being alive, to living without the weight of the responsibility, but actually with the enjoyment of actually doing the thing and not having to own it. Like the outcome necessarily, but it's okay.
Jesse French
Which then opens us up to surprise, right? To be like, dang, I couldn't have imagined this. Which talk about then, what a sweet gift. I did not engineer this. Look how, look how God showed up.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. Yeah, man. Well, I think the encouragement for our listeners is don't just have good intentions. Your kids aren't formed or raised or developed by your great ideas that never actually happen. It's and frankly, like your work, like in who you are and the legacy that you leave isn't your great ideas that never happened. It's not the intentions. It's the actual doing of things. Yeah.
Jesse French
So true. Well said, Cody B.
Cody Buriff
Damn. All right, dude, let's get out of here.
Jesse French
Thanks for the chat. Look forward to the next one.
Cody Buriff
See you guys next time.