Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to The Pilot Project Podcast, your premier source for stories and insights from pilots in the RCAF and mission aviation - brought to you by Skies Magazine! Whether you're an aspiring aviator, navigating flight training, or simply fascinated by the world of military and mission aviation, this podcast is your guide. We sit down with pilots and aviation professionals to hear their thrilling experiences, lessons learned, and expert advice on resilience, training, and the skills needed to succeed in this exciting field. Strap in - we’re ready for departure!
New here? Start with "Logbook: First 100 Part 1: The Climb".
This podcast is presented by Skies Magazine. If you're interested in the Canadian aviation industry, Skies is your go to multimedia resource for the latest news, in-depth features, stunning photography, and insightful video coverage. Whether you're an aviation professional or enthusiast, Sky's is dedicated to keeping you informed and bringing your passion for aviation to life. Visit skysmag.com to learn more and subscribe to stay updated on all things Canadian aviation.
Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and here with me again today for the real conclusion of our discussion on mental performance in military aviation is Zoran Stoikovic, a speaker and performance adviser to tech CEOs, military leaders, and pro sports coaches. By trade and training, Zoran is a sports psychologist and advises clients through kizo dot c a and other agencies. That's k I z o dot c a.
Bryan:He's worked with a variety of military squadrons, pro athletes, tech CEOs, and is currently supporting the Navy. Zoran, thanks again for joining us here today for our third episode on this topic. Thank you for your flexibility with scheduling, and welcome back to the show.
Zoran:Brian, thanks for giving this really important topic a good amount of airtime because I think that really raises awareness. And, yeah, I'm excited to to get into it here.
Bryan:Awesome. Listeners can check out part one to hear about Zoran's career in high performance sport, his work with student pilots in Moose Jaw, and his time supporting RCAF aircrew in Texas. And they can check out part two to hear the beginning of our section on practical tips starting from the night before a test flight through the flight itself and how to handle mistakes in the moment. Today, we're going to start with a quick talk about the future of mental health performance and what our allies are up to. Then we're going to jump back into the student experience and practical tips we're going to talk about after the flight, getting the most out of the debrief, performing at a high level over a longer period of time, such as a long course like Moose Jaw, and looking at what aviation can learn from sport.
Bryan:Finally, we'll cover the habits students, athletes, and professionals can start building now. So most of our NATO allies have some form of mental performance coaching. What are they up to in that space?
Zoran:So I wanna distinguish two two discrete but connected concepts before I get into that. So we've got mental health and then mental performance. So as a lot of your listeners will know, mental health, it's the pursuit towards having a better mental hygiene and there's a lot of habits and lifestyle that fits into that and there's a continuum. Mental performance fits really nicely on top of that because you can be mentally... You could actually be mentally healthy but not mentally performing.
Bryan:Right.
Zoran:And so, it's almost like a double it's a matrix where you've got two dimensions, mental health and mental performance. So they are very connected but also distinct. Again, I work in mental performance. Our allies are doing some are doing a lot, some are doing a little. In The States, for example, the US Air Force is doing a lot of work on creating integrated systems.
Zoran:And so for them, for example, the companies that manage air aircraft and so I'm thinking KBR and Serco and Magellan Federal and not necessarily only manage the aircraft but those companies have mental performance contracts and they hire staff, they hire fitness coaches, mental performance coaches, nutritionists. So they create these on paper integrated systems at least. What that's... How that's implemented at the level of the base depends on the base. The ones that I've been to, it's tended to be a decent system.
Zoran:There's good importance behind it and pilots do use the resources in some kind of capacity. In The UK, I know they've gone back and forth between having mental performance or sports psychology is what it's called in Europe, embedded within units to work with instructors. But then what's... It's also been scaled back because there wasn't as much buy in. And so the reason I made a big distinction between mental health and mental performance is there's less of that clarity in The UK, which could be the reason why that wasn't the buy in was a bit different.
Zoran:Whereas in Canada, we have a very distinct role of mental performance specialists. And in The States, it's cognitive performance specialists. And so, it's very discreet and distinct from psychologists. And there's, of course, there's referral networks that happen between the professionals which is very important for a really good system. The mental health practitioners sending pilots to work with the mental performance specialists and the mental performance specialists sending pilots to to to talk to the social workers at base or or mental health resources.
Zoran:So that ends up creating a a really good system where everybody has a clear role.
Bryan:Yeah. It sounds almost like a marketing problem in The UK where you might think to yourself, like, if if you view it as a mashed up altogether system, you might say, like, well, I'm mentally... I'm fine. Like, I'm healthy, whatever. Whereas I feel like there's a more of an open door to access our system when it's distinct because basically, you're not saying like, hey, you need, you know, you need counseling, you need mental health help.
Bryan:You're saying like, hey, yeah, you're you're mentally healthy, but you could perform at a higher level.
Zoran:Yes. Exactly. It's all about performance optimization. And and so that marketing, like you said, it is a marketing problem. The way I've always marketed what I do is performance in the cockpit.
Zoran:How do we get you performing in the cockpit? And so, Pilot's really connected with that. It wasn't about I didn't do talk therapy. I did listen and sometimes I was the first point of contact and I listened to people would come in if they trusted me and they had a good rapport with me when somebody broke up, they had family issues and I would listen and then I would pass them on to the resources to help them with that. So I think that that's the important piece but being very crystal clear who's got which role.
Zoran:For example, in The Netherlands, I've got a colleague that works there. She is a psychologist but she's uniformed.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:Right? And so that's... That has a different dynamic because you're part of the chain of command.
Bryan:For sure.
Zoran:Right? Not not that person's chain of command but like how is that information shared? And so confidentiality is is a massive... It's gonna be a massive driver of buy in.
Bryan:For sure. And it depends on the trust someone has in their institutions as well because I remember, for example, when I was still in the military and I was going through the mental health system at the time just due to my my... Some of my experiences and just the way my my mental health was, I didn't feel a lot of trust for the institution. Not necessarily because the institution itself is a bad one, but just because of where I was at. And so I felt less comfortable talking to a therapist who was in uniform versus a civilian.
Bryan:And, you know, the cool thing was they accommodated that. But I can totally see how having that person in uniform could really change how willing you are to go see them.
Zoran:Yeah, it would. And I think that can also be set up well. But as soon as you break the trust with one person, you're done. And again, I mean, I'm talking to... We're talking to a group of listeners here whose mental health is very important for the role they're doing or training for.
Zoran:So I treat mental health very seriously and I think there are... The way we've set it up in Canada, there's really good resources for that and for mental performance. There's great folks in Moose Jaw, Portage La Prairie, Cornwall, Winnipeg. So there's really good support. And so, yeah, if anybody has questions of who to connect with, please have them reach out to me and I'm happy to pass on any emails and contacts.
Bryan:Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's part of like, you know, you're talking about how you'll be you'll be a first point of contact.
Bryan:You'll listen. You can send them to the right people after that. That's kind of like any leadership or mentorship role. Right? Like a coach, a leader within your chain of command, a mentor, a parent, whatever.
Bryan:Like you go to the person you trust, they listen to your issues and then they might say like, hey, let's talk or hey, I think this might need more than I'm qualified to give you. A 100%. Yeah. So is there anything kind of within that world that's new and exciting that's kind of like next gen in terms of performance coaching? Like beyond the stuff we've talked about in the last couple episodes, what's something new that's like, oh, that could be really cool?
Zoran:So the new thing that's really hit the world of sport, and it's, I'd say in the last decade or or a little bit more that it's really gained traction, is acceptance commitment therapy. And acceptance commitment therapy works on basically these six skills. So for example, cognitive behavioral therapy, which a lot of therapists are trained in classically, works on very specific skills, the cognitive behavioral skills. And acceptance commitment therapy is to me really interesting because it works on your values as well. It works on diffusion of emotions and situations.
Zoran:You work on you work on accepting the way you're feeling instead of... With cognitive behavioral therapy, sometimes it's a lot of changing how you think and how you feel. Mhmm. Acceptance commitment therapy is more about becoming aware of what you're feeling, seeing, noticing internally in your inner world. Accepting that, which is a that's a big step.
Zoran:Awareness is like level one, level two is accepting it. And then level three is actually putting committed action behind it, which is why it's called acceptance and commitment therapy. And I believe it's the way forward. The other, a more established, I'd say, practice or framework or theory would be mindfulness based stress reduction that's been around for a good amount of time. It's been used in addictions groups to help folks leave alcohol and smoking and drugs and it's had a really good impact.
Zoran:Then, it's been applied to sports and the military as well. I'd say besides that, there's good advancements in technology. I was reflecting on this last night, Brian, for me, tech is great and recovery is important and you can... You have all these gadgets to track like biofeedback so you can track your heart rate variability and see... You have...
Zoran:You can get hooked up to skin conductance. Right? What do you have there? The aura?
Bryan:Aura Ring? That's an aura ring. Yeah. Buddy got a new one. He gave me his old one.
Bryan:Nice. I'm wearing something right now for that. Yeah.
Zoran:Love that. And so I think with the data and with anything anybody's using or like a practitioner might have it in the office, I certainly use biofeedback with some of the pilots I worked with. But it has to make sense. And just because we can measure something doesn't mean it's actually the right thing and doesn't mean we're working on the right thing and doesn't actually mean we're measuring it in the right way.
Bryan:Right.
Zoran:Where I wanna see this go and I'm sure there's research out there that that... That's happening but I'd love to see it go towards integrating this technology in the cockpit and maybe the fifth jet, like maybe the f 35 has this but I want to see pilots wearing wearing a vest. We've had this in sport for decades, like for decades. Wearing a vest where we measure breathing, breathing, g's, heart rate, and I don't know, maybe other parameters with it. But can we take that data and then coach the pilot after practice?
Zoran:And in practice, like in Moose Jaw in Portage, train them on actually understanding their own signals of stress, which I talked about in a previous episode, and then doing something about it. Yeah. Right? So that analytics, those performance analytics, used in sports all the time.
Bryan:You could almost make the mental performance coaching piece part of the debrief. Like, maybe the instructor identifies there's an issue, they can call in someone who helps with that and they take you through part two of the debrief where they go through your data and say like, hey, here's the point where they asked you to do this maneuver. You needed a three, you got a two. Here's what was happening inside and before and after
Zoran:and during. Totally. And pilots have, I've brought this up before and pilots have brought in their own heart rate monitors and polar chest straps and all sorts of things and three sixty cameras and stuff like that to have some of that performance data. I genuinely think it's important. But you know what the flip side of that is?
Zoran:The flip side of that is I see a study last night that done on it was a meta analysis, meaning they examined a bunch of studies that was on recovery. And you know, cold baths, saunas, all the things we all know that's good for recovery. You know what it actually comes down to? Resting is really good for recovery. Yeah.
Zoran:Like, it's better. It's actually more effective than doing any of those things. So for me, that's... That was... It wasn't shocking but it's nice when the science catches up because the science was ahead of it and it's like...
Zoran:And then all these companies jump on board and so that's why I'm a bit hesitant with tech like the whoop and some of that kind of stuff. Yep. Really great. But if you don't know how to interpret the data and if it's not actually... If you're not actually changing behavior as a result of seeing that data, get rid of the subscription.
Bryan:Yeah. I mean, ultimately, the basics are like your 90% solution. Right? Get good sleep. Get good leisure time where you're actually rejuvenating yourself like mentally.
Bryan:Eat well, get exercise, spend time with your friends and family. Like, if you have a spiritual side to your life, make sure you're nurturing that too. However that looks, whether that's church or meditation or whatever, going for a hike in the forest. But that that gets you 90% and then maybe this extra stuff can get you that last maybe four extra percent because you're never gonna get to a 100. Right?
Bryan:But you're right. Like, can definitely get lost in the noise and like, oh, my ring says I'm not good to go today but like you know you've been... You're well rested and you're good or, you know, the other way around or whatever. Like, you can get lost in the trees and not see the forest.
Zoran:Yeah. I love that. And it's interesting because it is shiny and one of the things like... An example of tech that I bought for Moose Jaw and Portage when I was there is the FitLites. And so, if any students wanna access those, talk to talk to the mental performance team.
Zoran:And so FitLite is... It's like these lights that are... They're controlled from your smartphone and they they light up and you gotta... It test... It actually measures your reaction time.
Bryan:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like the thing where you go like that on the... Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan:I... I've seen, like, f one drivers warm up with those.
Zoran:Yeah. F one, the Denver Nuggets, a bunch of European premier, like, Premier League teams. And so not European. England Premier League teams. And and those are great.
Zoran:But again, it has to be the way you set up that work and those drills has to make sense. It's like with anything. It's got to be targeted. I'd like to pull on a thread that you brought up earlier about the mental performance coaches being in the debriefs. I think that's a really great opportunity.
Zoran:And that is something I did with... Especially with the instructors who were okay with it. There's nothing that disallows that. I've seen the prod cards. I actually had access to everybody's...
Zoran:I had instructor access so I could see anybody's prod card at any time for flights and notes. So there's nothing secretive about that. But for me, it was, yeah, sitting in on on a simulation debriefs or or something like that. And students can actually request that from their mental performance teams in in Portage... Winnipeg, Portage, and and Moose Jaw.
Bryan:So That's awesome.
Zoran:Yeah. It's really great. Really great. And and then it's... The tough part about it is, you know, like in The Sims, obviously, I get to watch the training and maybe we've got some kind of like heart rate monitor or whatever on there.
Zoran:You can hear the breathing. When they're flying the plane, I I can't do my mental performance report and I can't provide that analysis so so it loses some of it. But for The Sims, really great for sure.
Bryan:Wasn't there a thing like, I swear I remember, gosh. Close to ten years ago, at one point, they were like, hey. You can get a free smartwatch, but you have to wear this, like, data harness basically that will record a whole bunch of different biofeedbacks. And it was some kind of trial, I think, to maybe go along this road. I'm exactly clear what they were trying to do.
Bryan:Did you hear about that at all?
Zoran:I think CAE might have been doing some research that that I'm aware of, something related to biofeedback and VR setups and augmented reality.
Bryan:Yeah. This was here in Portage and I think maybe Moose Jaw, but I'm not positive. Or I said here in Portage. We're not we're not there anymore. But I keep forgetting I'm not I'm not in Portage anymore.
Bryan:So look, we've kind of talked about where this stuff is at now. Let's say ten years from now, speaking as, you know, sports psychologist, speaking as someone who works in mental performance coaching, as an individual, as Zoran, not as a representative of the forces programs, where would you like to see this field go in ten years? Like, what would would be like the next step?
Zoran:Yeah. These views are my own. So in ten years' time, we're gonna be decently established with the PC 21
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:Training and the and the new training platforms. So, that's one thing. That change management takes time and I think the instructors are gonna be in a good space. There's some really good work being done on pilot competencies by my colleague Simone Viatard. Shout out.
Zoran:And so I think some of that's definitely going to be in place. So I think there's two options. If we mess this up, where it goes is we have more more support for the pilots but everybody works in silos. Mhmm. And nobody's integrated in the pilot training system.
Zoran:And I don't I don't necessarily mean only classroom content. I mean, being integrated within the daily ops, like going on the on the Joss South equivalents, going on training exercises.
Bryan:Like being a part of the support team?
Zoran:Yes. If we mess it up, that doesn't happen. Everybody sits in their office. The strength and conditioning coach or whoever's running AC... The air conditioning program does their own thing.
Zoran:Mental performance people do their own thing. Health promotion does their own thing, the instructors do their own thing. So that's the worst case scenario. I don't think that's gonna happen. The best case scenario is those people actually get together for a regular meeting and talk about the pilots.
Zoran:And they actually go through a list of names, which is what we, the aircrew reconditioning manager who ran the aircrew conditioning program in Moose Jaw and Portage. Like, we would get together and do that.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:We initiated that. Right? So it does take some of that collaboration and coming up with things together, joint things together. And it really... I think the second thing, if we were to mess this up in my first scenario is we create these big courses and things without actually using really good adult learning principles and without actually embedding it within the operational tempo that we're going to have in ten years because presumably, there's going be a lot of flying.
Bryan:Mhmm. For sure.
Zoran:Right? It's going be a good amount of flying. So it's going to be busy. Yeah. People are going be out of there pretty quick.
Zoran:So from what I know, anyways, you maybe know you know more than I do. So so that's exciting. Mhmm. And recovery is gonna be important and and all these things that we're talking about in in these three parts. But for me, it's...
Zoran:If we mess this up, we would do day long courses or two day long courses or... No. For pilots, everything has got to use really good and modern adult learning principles. Just in time, short, to the point, more often, not once at the start of course and once at the end of course but for me, it's... That would be the ideal.
Zoran:And having really good people. Like just if... When you have good people in the organization and at CFMWS or whoever hire... Hires the people for that, you know, it would be it would be... I I put the biggest emphasis on that.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:You put really good people and you let them do their work, they're gonna work together. You you you put people who are team players, they're gonna work together. Mhmm. And they're gonna create something... They're gonna create a masterpiece that none of them could have created on their own.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a couple things you said there that I that I definitely like. One of the big things you mentioned was the tempo increase, and I definitely think that's going to be a big factor in the RCAF.
Bryan:Like, it's no secret that we are short on staffing. It's also no secret that we're in the process of the biggest recapitalization since the Second World War. So there is going to be like, we're an air force right now that is for a lot of us used to flying 40 year old aircraft that break a lot, that we don't have a ton of, that our mission sets can sometimes even end up limited because of the age of the aircraft. We're about to be a massive air force of top of the line modern aircraft that are going to be brand new. So they're...
Bryan:You're not going to have like, oh yeah, we're scheduled to fly three times this week, but two out of three are going to break. Like you're going to fly three times if you're on the schedule three times. And so the training is going to happen faster. The operational tempo is going to be higher. And I think the importance of mental resilience and the ability to perform with that tempo is going to be far more crucial than it is even now.
Zoran:No doubt. Yeah. It's... Yeah. No.
Zoran:I fully agreed with what you said. I mean, and it's... What I... Where my brain was going is how are the people that come into to the invite... There's gonna be a transition period as there is with anything, right?
Zoran:Because there's obviously with the tapering down of flying with the current airframe and then there's gonna be an uptake of flying and so those transitions are challenging because it's like launching a new app. There's gonna be... You might need to troubleshoot it. There might be things that you gotta make more fluid. And that's a normal process.
Zoran:I think then for the individual pilot or instructor, maybe some of your listeners, instructors as well, having the skills to help people navigate that change. Like, actually not being transparent about about it and and going going on about that. So... Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. And during this transition, it's a tough time to lead too. Like, big props to former guests of the show, Jamie Spicer Blanchet, commanding the Air Force currently, Dan Coutts, commanding two CAD, two Canadian Air Division who handles all the flight training. It's a super tough time, I think, right to be in those positions as they manage like massive, massive transitions in the training system. So it's definitely a tough time to be a leader, I think.
Bryan:So we have been kind of zoomed out looking at the overall picture of performance coaching. We're going to zoom back into the student experience and get into some more practical stuff. In the previous episode, we talked about how you've been on this test flight, you've... The night before, when do you stop studying? During the flight, how do you handle stress or how do you handle a mistake and keep going?
Bryan:So we've landed, the plane's off, you've taken off your gear, you're in the debrief. The flight is over and I already think I've failed. How would you help me arrive at the debrief ready to learn?
Zoran:Oh, that is a tough one. I'm I'm putting myself in in the shoes of the pilot you you just talked about. I mean It is hard. Right? Like, you come down from
Bryan:a flight that doesn't go well and you're under so much pressure and all of a sudden you're like this, you know, 20 year old adult and you're trying not to cry and Yeah. You're trying to, you know, hang in there and you feel embarrassed because like it's not like there's so
Zoran:many emotions flooding your body. It can be a really tough a tough moment. You know what I'd say to that? It's a tough moment, you got these emotions? Good.
Zoran:And you know why? Because it means you care about it. If you didn't have those emotions, if you're going into that debrief, cool head, heart rate, 60 beats per minute, What what are you doing here? So good. It means the person actually cares about what they're doing.
Zoran:I think popping into an open minded and accepting frame is is important for this moment. So I'd say asking questions instead of getting defensive is is massive. Bringing a pen, notebook, that that was always my style. I've received tough feedback from from my managers, from my from my professors, teach... Teachers, and so I've typically gone in with curious especially when I mess things up and you own it.
Zoran:And if you were aware of something that the instructor said, own it and say what you're gonna do to rectify it. So I think it's that acceptance piece of saying, oh, yeah. I I messed that up.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:And committing to action. And if you're not clear on what... How to actually practice for that before your retest or before your next flight, ask your instructor. They're actually... The instructors are there to help people succeed.
Zoran:They actually care. Yeah. And if you're not getting the right answer, talk to your peers. So I'd say that those are big things. I think taking a moment...
Zoran:So from that transition of like sitting down, touching down, powering the plane off, doing the checks, whatever, post flight checks, and then taking gear. There's lots of moments of transition. So I would capitalize on throwing some breaths in there. So as you as you walk into the building, even if your instructor's talking, inhaling through the nose and slow exhale through the mouth. When you...
Zoran:When you're taking your stuff off, like don't rush it just because the instructor's waiting. Then you're gonna come antsy into the into the debrief. So so take your time. Take a moment. Put your stuff down in your locker.
Zoran:Do it do it, you know, calm and collected and you're gonna go in... You're more likely to go into that debrief more calm and collected.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:I'd say giving yourself a pep talk is helpful in these moments sometimes and reminding yourself why you're why you're actually flying. And what I've noticed, Brian, is if somebody's reason for becoming a pilot, getting those wings on their chest wasn't crystal clear to them when they came into the training pipeline, it should become pretty clear because there's gonna be moments like that that really test it. Mhmm. And when you know why you something, you can endure that tough conversation. You can endure getting up for early morning flight.
Zoran:You can endure for getting up for for a sim on a Saturday morning. And so then, I'd say once you have the feedback for for what you need to know, what you need to change, go practice the crap out of that. Like like create a customized like visualization thing and you could be a mental performance coach just to help you with that. Like make it super targeted
Bryan:to the
Zoran:thing that you you actually struggled with. Go into the sim, do the maneuver over and over and over and over. Like, if if your take offs are good, maybe skip that. Just focus on the thing. Right?
Zoran:Like, I think of a professional tennis player I was working with who was playing in the Olympics, the last Olympics. And he he doesn't go on the court and have like... He doesn't always do all the aspects of practice. He he practices the things that he needs for the for the tournament coming up.
Bryan:Right.
Zoran:And if something's off where he doesn't have confidence with it, he does as much work until he actually gains confidence into it. So so just to recap here for you, I'd say that there's power in that walk, So throwing some breaths into it, how you take off your gear is massive and that sign off procedure, if you will. Right? You talked about in one of your episodes about, like, clipping in. So, like, the unclipping.
Zoran:Right? That's where you've taken off the Clark Kent costume and you're going back. Right? And then going in asking questions and and finally going and actually doing the work. Yeah.
Zoran:You can do any amount of mental preparation. If you don't do the actual work
Bryan:Yeah.
Zoran:Not not gonna be
Bryan:good. Yeah. And and something that I think I wish I had been able to do for myself... No. I was I was in some ways fortunate, some ways unfortunate.
Bryan:I didn't fail anything at Moose Jaw, which is great except it also meant that later I had to learn to deal with setbacks at a much later stage in my career than I would have liked. But I remember being so worried about making mistakes and failing and whatever. And I wish that I had said to myself like, hey, you're a student. Like, you're not a qualified pilot. You are gonna make mistakes.
Bryan:You are gonna have setbacks. And most likely, you are gonna fail flights and that's okay. So, like, give yourself a bit of grace. Feel what you're feeling if that happens. Take some breaths and then get ready to learn.
Bryan:And speaking of that, part of recovering from one of these things I feel like is having like a healthy mindset on the idea of making mistakes and accepting that you're not gonna be like this perfect pilot all the time. What does honest self assessment sound like compared with just beating yourself up?
Zoran:You're asking hard questions, man. No. These are really important questions and I think that you have to know yourself, first of all. I know there's folks listening from all walks of life, but knowing who you are, what you want to do, why you want to do it, how you're going to get it, where you've come from, That's really important. One of the strategies that I've often passed on to pilots and pro athletes alike is understanding that we've all overcome difficult things.
Zoran:So remembering that, remembering those moments, rewinding the game tape, which is hard sometimes, especially if you're used to rewinding the game tape to the failures and the things you didn't overcome because then that gets more reinforced. So instead of doing that, change the channel and and look at the archives of the brain and go, oh, what are those moments that I've overcome similar situations in the past that I've overcome maybe not in the same context. Maybe it's somebody who played sports or had a rough patch in their relationship or had a tough time at work if they had a previous job. So that would be what I'd be looking into for some of those performance receipts. And I'd be looking at some of that and going, what did I do in that moment to actually overcome that challenge or setback?
Zoran:I think that's the most powerful thing you can do. Because history has a way of repeating itself, especially if we point our eyes to the right moment in history. And if we give that a lot of mental thought and relive that and go back to that, and that's really important. I think that's why having a journal is massive. You have that better recollection of it because sometimes things happen to us in life when we don't reflect on it and we don't process it properly.
Zoran:So that's what I would do. I would somehow whether it's just mentally thinking about it or putting pen to paper and saying, where have I overcome this in the past? Because you know what that does? That builds resilience. That's gonna, on the spot, give you the tools that you have used, not tools that might work, could work, that it's going to take you time to build.
Zoran:It's like, here's things that I've actually used. And so some of those tools you might think of calling a specific person in your family or a friend you haven't talked to in a while. It could be, for some people, it's prayer, meditation, it's journaling or going for a walk or praying... You know, playing your sport or going out for a drive. Right?
Zoran:So I've... People have different strategies, going out in nature and leaving the phone in the car. So I think, yeah, thinking back to those moments in the past is is... Would be helpful.
Bryan:For sure. When it comes to distinguishing between, like, healthy, honest self assessment versus, like, beating yourself up, is that basically the difference between, like, positive and negative self talk? Like, does it kind of come down between like, hey, you know, if you were trying to, you know, mentor a junior pilot or if you were trying to teach somebody something, you know, how would you talk to them? Is that kind of how you should approach that?
Zoran:I would... There's a good litmus test for that one and and the litmus test is would I say the things I'm saying to myself to my best friend? Right. And how long would they be my best friend after saying that to them?
Bryan:Yeah.
Zoran:Just for your listeners, the default mode is to be self critical. That 70% of our thoughts based on studies tend to be self critical. Unfortunately, we're not going to make that zero. And so what healthy thoughts look like actually, there's sociological, there's cultural differences, there's individual differences. So there's no I can't say thinking positive is good for everybody.
Zoran:But in general, having a more optimistic outlook of the future is gonna be helpful. What I said earlier about acceptance, would be one of the things to use and that would be one of the tools to use in this moment. So noticing that self talk, becoming aware of it, absolutely, and potentially starting to accept it initially and say, yeah, these are thoughts that I have or just this is my brain just having thoughts. And then choosing what to do with that. What's the action?
Zoran:Do I want to shift that or do I want to stay in that mindset? And having that checklist written out is helpful. Like, actually aware, accept, action. And and actually, like, running through the steps can help you have the desired result of minimizing some of that self criticism. But again, it's very normal.
Zoran:It's very natural. I have it all the time. I'm a mental performance coach and like it's but you just learn to live with it and you learn not to listen to it. So you can hear it but you don't listen to it. Yeah.
Zoran:Right? You don't buy into it. There's a subtle difference. You hear that it's there so that's the awareness but you don't get caught up... You don't get caught up in it.
Zoran:You don't let it spiral you. You don't let it... And that's easier said than done too. Like for that, you having more battery in the tank is... Or more, let's say, more fuel in the tank is helpful.
Zoran:You gotta... So that you can actually do that work. So, you can actually make that decision to go, yeah, I hear the thought but I'm not going to engage with it. It's a lot easier for that thought to take hold almost like a virus when our energy levels are low which is why I'm a big proponent of that high performance culture. And I think each pilot listening to this is a piece of that culture.
Zoran:Right? Like, what are you doing at your unit to make it a more high performing culture? Mhmm. Right? I know there there was guys who every morning in the morning brief would would show a workout of the day.
Zoran:Like, that's amazing. You don't have to think about what you're gonna work out and some of these were hard, really hard workouts. I mean, I think that's a piece of it. Right? You're you're a tactical athlete.
Zoran:Right? What what do tactical athletes do? Well, there's performing habits. What are high performing habits? Well, we talked about them.
Zoran:Really good sleep, getting... Thinking clearly, eating cleanly, and then moving in ways that are gonna set you up for your your craft. Right? So the air conditioning program is great for that. Working out, playing sports that...
Zoran:Where you're not gonna get injured. And so, you know, having those social relationships, community, working on your values, those are those are high performing habits and and having really good physical health, which which is a part of that. So that's what I'd say, Brian. It's it's a bigger picture kind of thing and and... But if you're doing all those things, it is...
Zoran:And and having those high performing habits, it is going be easier to manage your your self talk and to be able to tell the difference and to be able to actually shift it as needed. Mhmm.
Bryan:The other thing that often happens after... Especially if it's like an unexpected failure setback, your confidence can take a hit. And in this world of high performance, certainly within aviation, I imagine, as well in sport, confidence is just such a critical indicator of whether you're going to be successful or not. Like, everybody has had a flight where they go in feeling great and everything just goes so smooth. It's almost effortless.
Bryan:And everyone has had a flight where they're not feeling confident. They feel kind of shaky. And, like, you can literally find yourself feeling like your body feels shaky, like you've had too much coffee or something. So after these failures, you lose confidence, let's say, it was unexpected, it really knocked you back. How do you build back for that, especially when your makeup flight might be the next day?
Zoran:So let me define confidence just so we're all on the same page. I view confidence as the feeling of belief in your abilities and skill set. So it is a feeling. It's very linked to self esteem, which might be another word people have heard of. And self esteem is...
Zoran:It's very discreet by category. So somebody may have high confidence in their takeoffs but low confidence in their landings. Or high self esteem for takeoffs, low comp... So when we add all those up and we break out all the different competencies of being a pilot, if overall, let's say you have 70% confidence on average across those different competencies, your confidence probably for flying is probably gonna be 70%. And then we could take that and plug it into to lifestyle and relationship confidence and body conf...
Zoran:Like self esteem and body image and so there's a... It's a bigger part of a bigger picture. And when you build confidence in a lot of areas, it will spill out into the the flying. What I'll say specifically to to your question is studies have found that it... Absolutely confidence is one of the biggest predictors of performance.
Zoran:The the unfortunate thing is if if you... In the scenario that you presented, if you have only a day, you may not be able to go from 30% confidence to 80% confidence.
Bryan:But let's let's say you had a healthy level of confidence, but it's been like knocked back. What's a good way to kind of bounce back and be ready? Because like the next day could decide your future. Right? Like, that's the reality of it.
Bryan:You don't want to think about that too much, but the reality is if I fill the flight today, they... And I'm... And my extra dual ED is tomorrow and I fill that too, I'm going to a board to decide if I'm gonna keep flying or not.
Zoran:Yep. Okay. So if, I mean, if you had decent confidence, you were knocked back by maybe not a great flight. It would be... The reason that happens is because of...
Zoran:There's recency bias. We're more biased towards recent events carry a lot of weight for us.
Bryan:For
Zoran:sure. Even, let's say your whole flying experience or a whole phase of flying went really well and then there's a one flight you failed and now you're going on an ED. It doesn't matter that you flew... That that you snaked a bunch of flights and got forwards on these other ones. Maybe you got a merge on this one.
Bryan:Something that's really cool here as Zoran talks is you can tell he spent a lot of time with RCAF pilots because he's using a lot of the language that we use when we talk about student flights. So snaking a flight is getting a standard exceeded. It starts with an s. We call it snaking the flight. When he says fours, we rate each maneuver or skill from a rating of one to five.
Bryan:One being you basically drooped down and went unconscious and five being you did it completely perfectly. And finally, a merge is a marginal and it essentially means you barely passed.
Zoran:So that's gonna carry a lot of weight. I think it's remembering the perspective. Hey, look at this. Look at the growth I've had. Look at these amazing missions.
Zoran:It's for sure dissecting what you could have done better and being selective about that, being ruthless. We talked about that with the instructor debrief piece today. But besides that, it would be calling... If you've got a trusted friend, family member, or somebody in in Moose Jaw who you're... Or reported, wherever you're listening from at your base that you're that you're connected with, that you trust, debrief how you're feeling with them.
Zoran:That... That's what I'd say. That goes a long way. You know, if you've... In these situations, if you've if you've talked to the mental performance team before at any of the bases, like, go talk to them, right?
Zoran:If you haven't talked to them before, this isn't the time to build a relationship with them. That's why, you know, you got to do that earlier in your flying career. So it's, again, remembering that that it that it is a drop in confidence. I would focus on, a couple of different things, and it's the things that we control. And it ultimately spells out, ACE, a c e.
Zoran:So the a is for attitude. So your attitude, we absolutely control our attitude. Right? You you fail the flight. Are you gonna sock your shoulders or are you gonna step up and and and actually...
Zoran:How are you gonna approach it? Are you gonna approach it as an opportunity or a problem? Right? Okay. What's the opportunity here?
Zoran:Right? Okay. Cool. I failed to fly the opportunities to learn. Okay.
Zoran:Let me talk to my instructor. That's attitude. Right? Body language. C is for concentration.
Zoran:What am I gonna focus on? Right? And what's... And is what I'm focused on actually gonna help me set up for tomorrow or no? Because you could spend a lot of energy ruminating.
Zoran:Right? So so the the piece with that is there's gonna there's gonna come a time where you you gotta draw a line and go, I'm done reflecting on the past flight. I'm now focused on thinking about the flight tomorrow. And unfortunately, you don't have twenty four hours. Like I would have said, like sleep on it but you can't sleep on it.
Zoran:You kinda gotta go. So that's concentration. What are you focused on? And then e is effort. How much effort are you putting into and where are you putting effort into?
Zoran:Because I think one of the worst things somebody in that situation could put effort into is again, thinking about that past flight or just going having a coping strategy that isn't great. That's not a high performing coping strategy or going and spiraling, isolating themselves. No. Do the thing, talk to people and then I'd say at some point, get over it. It sounds harsh but I'd say get over it and start to move on to the next thing.
Zoran:Easier said than done. You might need days to process it and you might not fully process it. So when it comes to morning time, you really want to focus yourself as much as possible on that flight coming up. And if the mind skips back to the past and to the failure, get out of that. Notice that.
Zoran:Become aware of it and shift it. Change the channels. Yeah. And I'd say no need to... There's potentially no need to change anything.
Zoran:Like, what you do the morning before a flight, like, don't need to touch that. Don't change the food you're eating. Don't change the mental skills you're using. It's just these little tweaks that I talked about here are gonna set somebody up for a long way. But there does need to be some processing.
Zoran:Right?
Bryan:I think too, you have to accept that, like, you are gonna feel bad if you fail a flight. Like, that's a normal way to feel. You know, I had a sim instructor say to me one time, I screwed up something in the sim, an emergency or something, and I was frustrated. He goes, yeah, man. Sucks to suck.
Bryan:Like... And you know what? It does. It sucks to suck. Like I love that saying.
Bryan:When when you realize like, oh, that... I really just... That sucked. Like, it does not feel good. And you you have to live with that.
Bryan:Like, it... That's reality. When you screw up, you're gonna feel like crap sometimes. And and then you just kinda go, oh, sucks to suck, then you move on.
Zoran:I I wanna know who coined that because that's... One of my best friends love that... Loves that phrase and he says it all the time.
Bryan:It's so good, though. It's so true.
Zoran:It is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the classic...
Zoran:I mean, if you're feeling bad, good. You'll get better. Yeah. Right? You failed?
Zoran:It's the Jocko willing mentality a little bit, right? Channel your inner Jocko. It's like, that sucked? Good. You have a chance to practice.
Zoran:Like, it's the, k, it sucked but what am I gonna do with that?
Bryan:Yeah. You don't wallow in it. Right? Like, you you know what? This does suck.
Bryan:What's next? Like, what's important now? Right?
Zoran:And and what I'm sharing here also, it doesn't come from me like reading research. It comes from anecdotal work with Pilot. It also comes from me doing this deep work on myself. Mhmm. Like, that's that's a part of why I had the street cred that I did is because I I did the work as well.
Zoran:And and that rubs off. People notice that. Mhmm. I've I've competed for contracts in a field that is very difficult and it doesn't have a lot of contracts, especially the nice shiny ones with national teams. I've lost contracts.
Zoran:I've won contracts. I've competed for... So it is it is ruthless. Yeah. Like, it...
Zoran:It's not easy. It's not as clear as this pilot training, so you have to, like, navigate the uncertainty and finding clients and putting food on the table. So what I'm saying here, I I practice it.
Bryan:So I think a really important topic is performing for a day is one thing. Performing for eight months at Moose Jaw is another. So how do we make that performance last? A lot of ambitious students treat recovery as something they earn after working hard enough. You know, you don't deserve recovery unless you've like put yourself to exhaustion.
Bryan:What would you say to them?
Zoran:That's such a broken model. That is... No. What I say to that is we're human beings. We're not human doings.
Zoran:That's the way I'll put it. We're... And you don't need to do more to be more human and you're not gonna be worth more when you're doing more. So that is a broken model and that model is something to work on and to challenge for, you know, for yourselves internally. Some people's model is if I'm making more money, I'm worth more.
Bryan:Right, yeah.
Zoran:Right? And so, there's a lot of these broken models that society puts out or or we put in our own heads or maybe parents or or what have you. So I would be... I would really... I challenge that hard.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:And I... The reason I challenge it hard is because I fell prey to that as well.
Bryan:For sure.
Zoran:And and so that is not sustainable. That's like saying, I'll eat the ice cream only if I work out. Yeah. It's like, yeah, that's a reward but the reward actually defeats the purpose of the thing that you're saying. Like, you should be able to eat guilt free ice cream.
Bryan:Yeah. That's an unhealthy relationship with, like Yes. Work and reward, basically.
Zoran:Yes. Yeah. I I would say the the reward has to be recovery is... So intelligent recovery. It's one of those high performance habits I talked about.
Zoran:And it's one of those things that's gonna get pilots performing consistently for eight months. Because if you're not recovered, you're not gonna learn. And all you're doing there for eight months is learning with your hands and feet and with your brain. And you're putting everything together in a noisy plane, in a new environment, potentially in a competitive environment, maybe not, but you're putting everything together. And so, that is one recipe for disaster for sure.
Zoran:So, I'd say just challenging that, number one. That's one of those things. Recovery. Prioritizing intelligent recovery. Really going after like having a cut off for yourself.
Zoran:Maybe... And this is very individual, right? Some people like to get up early, come to the flight and be there from eight to four. But are you doing it for the optics? Right?
Zoran:Because there's an optics piece of it too and people would come in and I'd always, you know, sometimes I'd see one person, everybody else is like gone on a thing and I'm like, what are you still doing here? And maybe it's dedication, right? But maybe it's... Yeah, I'd say do the things that you know have worked for you in the past but you're also going to need to do new things. You're going to need to potentially learn quicker.
Zoran:So prioritizing again, work to rest ratio or recovery if you will. People come in and the student... Like I wish they did these like before and after photos of students like on day one and then like month eight? Yeah. Oh my god.
Zoran:Like, what happened? Like, why haven't you been working out? No. I've just been like in the books. So people forget like they they don't eat, they don't...
Zoran:And so that is not a high performing... That's not a tactical athlete. To anybody in my eyes, to anybody who is... And this is coming... Advice coming from somebody who does mental performance coaching as a performance advisor, not as somebody who's flown the plane outside of The Sims.
Zoran:To be a to be a high performing pilot, in my eyes, you have to live a high performance lifestyle. Mhmm. So if you wanna be a high performer, it's gonna take dedication. And there's lots of great resources at all the bases. There's gyms and facilities and relaxation rooms and staff that can help you build programming and staff that can keep you accountable and maybe...
Zoran:Yeah. There's lots of different stuff. Like, know the the Fortis app is is out now and it's for for like physical... Like, you can get your gym workouts programmed on your phone.
Bryan:Oh, nice.
Zoran:Which is... Yeah. It's pretty sick. So it's like some of that kind of stuff goes a long way. I'd say learning, like taking care of productivity.
Zoran:That's gonna help with consistent performance over eight months. And I did help pilots with this because nobody else in the organization had the skill sets to do it and I did. Could you be learning quicker? Right? How are you setting up your workday?
Zoran:People would come and show me their schedule and then it goes, Oren, how do I optimize this? Like, no issues. Hey, like, I'm curious in your thoughts. This, this, that. I'm like, oh my god, you've got it down to fifteen minute chunk.
Zoran:Where's the lunch? They're like, oh no, I eat after four. No. Okay. Well, number one, we're gonna re...
Zoran:We'll shift things. We're gonna throw in a lunch. We're gonna throw a break every ninety minutes. Right? Pomodoro Technique is great for for this.
Zoran:There's a there's a really good app I'm using. I'm not affiliated but it's called Freedom. To and it's on the phone as well. You can like block apps. It's really good.
Zoran:I trialed it and it's the one app I'm actually subscribed to besides like Netflix or whatever. It is... It... I paid 60... I invested $60 for the year because it's so freaking good.
Zoran:And I think that is gonna help with with consistent performance as well.
Bryan:So it sounds like basically we've... We talked earlier kind of about how like the 90% is those basics and one of the biggest chunks of that is rest. So... And recovery. So like making sure that you're obviously getting enough of that time in that you don't...
Bryan:You're not basically just facing burnout after a month at moose jaw. Of course, there's going to be people who need to persist that are over... Over resting, let's say. So how do you tell the difference between somebody who is... Who needs to, you know, get a kick in their butt and somebody who needs to like take their foot off the gas pedal?
Zoran:I'd say we all know when we're at capacity. I'd say when you lie in bed at the end of the day, unless you have the broken model of oh, I didn't work for fourteen hours. Like the amount of hours doesn't actually matter. The amount of hours you studied is to me, it's worthless. It's the results.
Zoran:What are the results I achieved? What are the new things I learned? And if you have a sense of progress and your competencies are improving, that's great. It can be hard to tell the difference. It really can be.
Zoran:So I'd say that's where the self awareness comes in again. It's... I don't know. What would you say? I mean, besides what I've said of go...
Zoran:At the end of the day, you kind of have a gauge of how much... If you have that nagging voice
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:You may not actually be need to be doing more. Like I'd say, besides the results and prog cards, which can also... Everybody learns at different speeds and rates and maybe you have it's gonna take you some time to get into it and your scores are gonna improve.
Bryan:Yeah.
Zoran:So what what would you say?
Bryan:I mean, I think what you said about knowing yourself is a huge piece of this puzzle. And I think that's partly why men... I think that's why like mental health and mental performance are intertwined because having that good mental health and self awareness and that good relationship with yourself probably will also help you differentiate between is that voice an unhealthy thought or habit that I'm pray to that I need to, you know, basically tell it to shut up and I'm going to bed? Or is that the nagging voice of reality that I haven't prepared enough that I... There's this thing I should be working on and the truth is like, hey, you know what?
Bryan:I've been giving myself a bit too much of a break. Like I played Xbox for two hours yesterday instead of studying because I felt like I really needed to rest and just do some leisure time. But, you know, now today, I wasn't prepared for the flight or whatever. Like Mhmm. I think that if you are being really honest with yourself, then you hopefully intuitively...
Bryan:Unless you have like a super unhealthy relationship with work and with like kind of what we talked about, like I need to earn the rest, I need to earn the things that I should just be giving myself naturally. You should be able to sort of differentiate between those just based on like what what are they based on? Like is this based on a feeling of I'm not good enough, I haven't worked hard enough, or is it based on evidence that shows you like, hey, I didn't prepare for that flight. I I have to put a little more into this. But then you have to balance that, of course, with like also, was I partly not prepared because I was exhausted?
Zoran:Well, yeah. Exactly. And when you're... But it's a cycle. I think coming in well rested and maintaining those habits, those daily and weekly habits is gonna be massive.
Bryan:For sure.
Zoran:And and for, you know, once a month going away maybe for for the day or the weekend or if a couple of couple of folks from your flight are going. But I to summarize what we talked about here, I think don't use somebody else's yardstick to measure your success.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
Zoran:That's that's the big the the big kind of gist of it.
Bryan:Let's wrap this conversation up with what students can start doing now. Let's say somebody out there, which is probably the case, is listening and is months away from flight training. What would you say are two or three useful habits they can start building right now? Because a lot of what we've said today is like, you know, how can you deal with this problem? How can you deal with this?
Bryan:Like at a flight, during a flight, whatever. But a lot of the answers have been like, boy, I wish you had started working on that ahead of time. So what are a couple habits that they can start working on now ahead of time?
Zoran:Number one, I'd say learn as much as you can about the environment from any resource you have because that's going to lower your stress coming into the environment. It's not going be as new. So talk to people, consume this podcast, read books, read articles, talk to AI to learn as much as you can about the environment, the system, the challenges, the successes, how it looks, go to Google Maps, look at what the cute... So get... Start to build a visual.
Zoran:Two, I'd say understand your why. Understand your motivation behind doing the training. And your motivation basically falls into a couple of buckets. So, can be it's this rice model that the CIA uses reward, ideology, coercion, and ego. So, you're...
Zoran:Are you going for the rewards, whether it's like tangible, like money and stuff like that or intangible, like mastery, curiosity. Ideology is when you do something that's very aligned with your ideology and worldview, so it really integrates with that. C is for coercion and coercion isn't being corrupt but it's it's doing something because somebody... To not disappoint somebody else or to make somebody else proud.
Bryan:It's like dad was a fighter pilot so I want to be a fighter Yes. Because he really wants me to be. Not because necessarily I want to be, but because I don't wanna let him down.
Zoran:But what you're gonna tell yourself potentially is, no. I'm doing this for me. But... So that... That's a hard one.
Zoran:They're hard to distinguish sometimes Sure. Between, like, ideology and and coercion. And then the e is for ego and it's not egotistical. Ego just means identity. Right.
Zoran:And it's your I, it's your personality, it's aligned with your values, it's aligned with the lifestyle you want to have. You love the stories you're hearing about the Pilot communities in the world and so I would try to consume as much as possible, talk to Pilot communities, talk to people that have been through the system, go to Reddit. I know there's some good Reddit threads. Yeah. And and I think the last one is what I've already said is come come in with an understanding of what the three most important habits are for you being a high performance tactical athlete.
Zoran:So you're a tactical athlete. What are the three most important habits for you that you're gonna stick to? You're gonna do your best to stick to. They're gonna be tested, but you get tested in the sense of, like, it's gonna be hard to maintain them and it's a new environment and you're gonna be rocked and for the for the eight months that you're you're in pilot training. So so that's what I would focus on.
Zoran:I'd focus on people, learn as much intel about what you're going into as possible, know your why, and then build the skills now that you're gonna be using when you're there, the skills and the habits of being a high performance athlete.
Bryan:And you talked about those three skills. What would be three that would apply to most people? Like, fairly generically speaking, like, imagine, for example, one of them would be the practice of good sleep hygiene. What would be, say, two more?
Zoran:I'd say... So good sleep hygiene, I'd say mindfulness or some kind of breathing is an amazing habit to pick up because it's so versatile. There's so many different kinds of it and there's like 50 different kinds of breathing. A good book on that is... It's called Breath by James Nestor.
Zoran:It's a really great resource to get started on. You can listen to a podcast that he's on. Like, he's the breath guy to me. And then the last one I would say would be workflow. And I know that's not a classic mental skill.
Zoran:Like, I didn't say confidence or whatever. But do an honest audit of your workflow when you went through university or RMC or wherever you went through and some of the study habits that you had and how effective they actually were. I know reflecting on my undergrad, highly ineffective. They're like in high school, you're not challenged and then I got to university and it's like, okay, this is harder but then you don't have a lot of time to build that and you just got to do the thing. So reflect on that, take some lessons learned from those experiences and like put a list of those down.
Zoran:So what do we say? We said sleep hygiene, we said workflow, and we said mindfulnessbreathing for the skills.
Bryan:Okay. Awesome. So on your Kizo site, you have a few sample mental performance plans. What would a realistic plan look like for the first week for a busy student?
Zoran:Integrating into the environment. Like, I wouldn't do anything too too focused, I'd say, on the skills themselves. I would spend time in the environment, talk to people. I know it's a pretty busy and routine the first first week or two. So, I I would attend the courses with as much as much attention as you can.
Zoran:I know there's there's good courses that are delivered within that on mindset as well. So, yeah. I think some of those skills, I would say, setting your space up in a way that's going to set you up for success like setting your queues or shacks wherever you're staying up in a good space, making sure you have access to all the things because there's computer access is notoriously... It does take time, like making sure you have the tools to do the work. And in that first week, I would start hitting some of those some of those same habits I talked about.
Zoran:Like, because you've done the work coming... Before coming in. It's like, hey, let me talk to more people to get more intel. Like, go to the mess on Fridays. Like, find out about stuff.
Bryan:For sure.
Zoran:Talk to people. Go into briefings. Like if if you have a moment, if you have a break in your day, sit in on the briefings because then you're gonna get used to them quicker. Focus on the skills we talked about. Like plug in the breath here and there.
Zoran:Make sure you're sleeping well. Make sure you've got good... I know people eat in the mess usually but like have this stuff in the fridge that you're... That are healthier things. Like, don't bring in stuff that...
Zoran:That's necessarily comfort food. You can always get that when you want to.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:And then and then reconnect with your why. Why am I here? Hey. Oh, I've been preparing for this. Oh, now I'm here.
Zoran:Okay. Cool. What do I want out of this? Like, what what does success look like for me? And and start to introspect a little bit.
Bryan:Okay. What would you say is a popular piece of performance advice that you wish students would stop following? Like, maybe something that's like an outdated model.
Zoran:Well, it's it's the one we talked about, like the hustle culture of you you have to do more to be more. You have to you gotta grind, like you gotta spend a lot of hours. No. No. If you try to force something, it's actually gonna take you longer to learn it than when you're in a relaxed state, having good sleep, having been fed well, happy with your social relationships as much as you can be.
Zoran:So that's what I'd say is a pretty broken model. Just because it's so powerful, Brian. Yeah. Like that's ultimately a world view. Like, you're tying your success to the amount of hours that you study or work or whatever.
Zoran:There's never enough. It's a it's a treadmill. There's never... It's it's it's like a step climber. Like, you keep climbing on the next step and it it it keeps disappearing from below you.
Zoran:Yep. Right?
Bryan:Yep. And that was like the first question I asked you in the second episode when we started talking about like, okay, my flight's tomorrow. Like when do I I'm studying late at night, when do I stop? And like, you were like, boom, that's a broken model. Like that's where that term first started in this series.
Bryan:And I think it's just, you know, avoiding, like you said, avoiding that. Avoiding that idea that like, oh, you know, four hours of sleep at night. I'm a young person. Like I can handle that for eight months. Like I just need to go hard.
Bryan:Like the course is not designed for you to have to put yourself through that either.
Zoran:I think the other broken model is the fact that when you come there, I know sometimes people don't go home to visit family. Invest in that ticket. Go go home for Christmas.
Bryan:Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Zoran:Like, don't, you know... Not not necessarily that but, I mean, even during the course, if you if you had a tough week, like, the Friday, go go and spend two two days there, a day, and and unplug and be with family. That smell of home has a magical power that no amount of... Like, nothing else can can can overcome that. And it's gonna...
Zoran:Might give you that kick that you need for the for the next phase.
Bryan:Or the other side of that can be... Like, my parents came out and visited me there in Moose Jong. Obviously, going home is nice. But just having my folks be there for a couple days and seeing the people who love me most in the world and, you know, having their support face to face was massive. Like, it it made a huge difference for me.
Bryan:That is huge. So we've talked about briefly that you have a website as well as the Built For Pressure Podcast. If there's a student who is getting ready for flight training, where would you send them first on your website or podcast and why?
Zoran:So I'd say follow my Instagram page at k I zed o performance. Brian might put it in the the show notes there
Bryan:For sure.
Zoran:So it's easy for for you to click. The website is more so about my background or somebody looking to get into consulting or speaking or to have me come in and do a speaking engagement. So it's kizo.ca. The Built For Pressure Podcast is something that started from an initiative I had in Moose Jaw where I would deliver this mental minute. I'd come into these flights and after the weather brief, I'd give the mental minute like one to two minute tip of the day.
Zoran:And people loved that. They really liked it. It was tailored, it was customized, it was useful, it was integrated into the context and I knew the issues that were happening because people were coming to work with me individually and I was also observing and doing my job of understanding the needs of the environment and so Built For Pressure is a podcast that came from that. It's three to five minute episodes and it's all about no fluff, just me on a mic where, you know, giving you the tool of the day and I do a couple of those episodes per week and I've been doing that over a 150 episodes Awesome. Wow.
Zoran:In the in the year. So so it's... Yeah. That's a really great, really great resource. A variety of topics.
Zoran:You could search by topic. There's, like, breathing exercises on there. There's all sorts of stuff.
Bryan:So Okay. Awesome. So I think this is gonna probably tie in... This is our last question. I think it's gonna tie in a bunch of the skills and topics and mindsets that we've talked about.
Bryan:Let's say... Because again, eventually this will be true. A student is listening right now after the worst flight of their course and they're wondering whether they belong. What would you say to them?
Zoran:Perspective matters. So failure is challenging for anybody. Taking time to be kind to yourself and reevaluate after a good night's sleep.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:So good night's sleep goes a long way. Do the thing. Have your comfort food. Like, go, you know, whatever restaurant you love to go to. Like, do it if you like to go individually or with friends.
Zoran:I'd say do that thing. Watch your TV show even if it's trash TV. Even if it's like Love Island or something. I don't know. Do the thing that...
Zoran:Just get your mind off the stuff, reflect on it a little bit, get a good night's sleep and then reevaluate tomorrow morning. Those signals, those belonging signals are probably inaccurate. Right? If it starts to be a pattern where the student hasn't been able to fix the same issue or the same challenge, that maybe takes more work or more, you know, extra extra work with the instructors or in the sims or with mental performance coaches. But I'd say generally, that belonging signal is probably off and it's skewed because of that failure.
Zoran:So give yourself time.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's great advice. You know, I always say everything looks better in the morning. When it's the end of the day and whatever it is, whether you're anxious about something or you've had an argument with a friend or a spouse or partner or whatever, you know, everything looks better in the morning.
Bryan:When you're well rested and the sun's coming in the window, you're gonna feel better about it. That's the time to be thinking and making decisions and all that kind of stuff. And I think also just remembering that everybody has those moments where they wonder, is this really for me? Like, I remember going to get my glider pilot's license with air cadets, calling my parents from a pay phone and saying, I don't want to be a pilot anymore. Like, I don't think I want to do this as a job because it's way too stressful and I just don't...
Bryan:Like, I was like so anxious and, you know, that that passed, obviously, I ended up being a professional pilot. But everybody has those moments. I've had those moments. I'm sure I'm sure, you know, famous astronauts and fighter pilot aces and all these people have had had moments like that. So you're not alone if you're feeling that way, but it doesn't make it true.
Zoran:No. It doesn't.
Bryan:We're getting ready to wrap up here. Zoran, what is the best way for people to contact you if they'd like to reach out?
Zoran:So if, you know, if anybody's looking for resources or whatever, happy to happy to provide them. Instagram is good at k I z o performance. I'm on Twitter as well but less less active. LinkedIn. But I'd say Instagram and email are probably best kizodoperformance and then email is z o r a n kizodo.
Zoran:Ca. And, yeah, happy to talk shop. A lot of pilots have messaged after these these first two episodes and it was really great to reconnect and to see people were getting their wings and and overcoming challenges that they had had. So, was really... It put a smile put a smile on my face and and a couple pilots came into town, into Victoria on the weekend as as their...
Zoran:In their last two weeks of of the multi course in Portage. And so this was part of their journey and we we went out for beers and it was great. Awesome. It's awesome to see that people are people are doing things and moving on with their lives and going after it. So, yeah.
Zoran:That's great. I'm excited to see that. Thanks again for having me. It's been a real pleasure diving into the the performance side of of aviation and I've I've really enjoyed it. I think the the...
Zoran:Not I think. The the podcast you have is so important for this space and and I hope it keeps growing and and that you keep improving in listenership.
Bryan:So Thank you, man. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you. This was so cool to go through, like, not just your own practical experiences within elite sport and within the RCAF itself, but also to have this chance to kind of go through the actual practical tips of like, what do I do here?
Bryan:What do I do there? Like, I really think that our listeners are going to benefit a ton from that, whether they want to try to be a pilot, whether they're in training now or operating around the world. I also think that in general, people who are performing at a high level, whether that's sports or professionally can benefit from a lot of the stuff we've talked about. So thank you so much for your time, for being willing to put yourself out there and do the show and for being willing to kind of... We had to be really flexible with scheduling and you've been you've been awesome.
Bryan:So thank you so much.
Zoran:You're welcome. Pleasure.
Bryan:Okay. That wraps up what ended up being a three part series with Zoran Stojkovic on mental performance coaching in the RCAF and within the pilot world. If you'd like to connect with Zoran, you can check out his podcast, the Built For Pressure Podcast, or go to his website, Kizo Performance at www.kizedo.ca. Did you know that in Shepherd Air Force Base, Texas, there is a Canadian in command of the four hundred and sixty ninth flying training squadron? Next week, we'll be sitting down with lieutenant colonel Andrew Hasno Faith.
Bryan:We'll be talking about his time on the f 18, his time in command of the four sixty ninth flying training squadron, as well as the future of fighter lead in training or FLT, and what we're doing now for an interim FLT program since the Hawks have been grounded and before we acquire our next jet training aircraft. Do have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show? You can reach out to us at The Pilot ProjectPodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft.
Bryan:As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up.
Bryan:See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.