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S6 EP21 | With the success of WICKED, the studio demands more villains turned heroes in their own stories, and the guys decide to take a trip down the rabbit hole to visit WONDERLAND.
Two screenwriters attempt to recreate, reimagine, or flat out fix, existing film franchises when 'the studio' demands...MORE FILMS! It's an exercise in creative thinking where they will challenge themselves to conceptualize, pitch, and craft a film based on the stipulations of a hypothetical Hollywood overlord. | Sixfive Media
Hello and welcome to the studio demands at an exercise in creative thinking where we will conceptualize, pitch, and craft a film or series based on the demands from one of you listeners acting as
Jim:a hypothetical Hollywood overlord. Overlord.
T.C.:As professional screenwriters screenwriters ourselves and massive cinephiles, we talk movies all the time.
Jim:Massive.
T.C.:Woah. And we'd like to believe that we could meet any demand thrown at us. We will be your screenwriters for this episode. I am TC DeWitt. And joining me as always is Jim showing up on time like a psycho burzelic.
T.C.:Hello, Jim. Hello. Showing up on time. You wanna see those
Jim:trailers? Psycho.
T.C.:You wanna see those trailers?
Jim:Yeah. Of course, I wanna see the trip. So first of all Yeah. Yes. I wanna see the trailers.
Jim:I I like seeing what's coming out, and I like seeing it on the big screen.
T.C.:And getting comfy in them seats. Go ahead.
Jim:Yes. And and I also, I'm not used to looking at such a big screen so up close. So for me, there's a bit of calibration. And and and overall, it's all a part of the experience. And frankly, they may be ads, but I paid for them.
T.C.:Yeah. So
Jim:I wanna watch them.
T.C.:Well, do you I picked Psycho actually funny because, you know, we're in the spooky season. And the the notion of getting to a movie on time get to the movie before the movie starts, please. I don't care if you skip trailers, but if Nicole Kidman is on the screen, you're you're you are you are at the finish line. You need to be in there before. But I recently learned that Psycho is the movie that started this.
T.C.:This is a fun little so a pre 1960, movie theaters would run movies on a loop. They would just start it over and you could buy a ticket, walk in, and watch the movie wherever it's at and stick around, watch beginning again. And Psycho had a marketing campaign that says, get there before it starts. You'll miss every detail. Like, their whole marketing campaign was get in the theater and sit down before the movie starts.
Jim:And if I remember it, like, part of it was supposed to be, they they encouraged theaters to not let people in after Yeah. It
T.C.:It it began what became so ubiquitous to movie going Mhmm. Which is show up for the previews, show up for the trailers, get comfortable, adjust to the gigantic screen
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:Get quiet, and now watch the movie from beginning to end uninterrupted. I think Hitchcock would weep at the existence of cell phones and people pulling them out in the theater. I think he would be very upset
Jim:to know that's where
T.C.:that cinema became it it's sort of like Jurassic Park and the sub and the subsequent of, like, the sequels of the movies. Like, dinosaurs are boring. And and that's what movie theater movie theaters don't have the prestige they deserve anymore.
Jim:Yeah. I was I was you you you invoked Jurassic Park, and and I was I was it's a button I got right now.
T.C.:Oh, shoot.
Jim:So
T.C.:Thank you for reminding me even just that because we talked about it. We did a suddenly conversation on Tron Aries that I have not I forgot to post. So I'm gonna I will post that tonight, which will be it will be available for you on if you're listening now, you can have a Tonight
Jim:not being when you're listening
T.C.:to Whenever yeah. Whenever you're listening to it, it's available right now over on Patreon. So, anyway, you psycho. Yeah. Yeah.
T.C.:Okay. Well, Jim, our amazing listeners have given us demands from studios literally all over the world. All over the And you listening now, you can send us any demand you'd like, and we will have to meet it right here on the spot. We will read it and meet it. And when we reach the end of the episode, if we've done our jobs, we will have pitched a full script and story meeting or even exceeding those demands.
T.C.:And when the end of the season comes, which, Jim, this is the last mainline episode of the season. Mhmm. We only have the a z b AZP crossover. Yep. Our penultimate episode and the finale left.
T.C.:This is the last episode of the season. And so your demand could have helped us craft the script that will be greenlit by the fans for our finale. Thanks to everyone who submitted. Please keep them coming. Do I need to turn that off?
T.C.:Because you just keep looking over it.
Jim:Okay. I I'm I'm still listening to you.
T.C.:Today's demand comes from Leonard Lenny Courtney from Dream Spine Pictures. Okay. Gentlemen, the success of Wicked, Maleficent, and to a degree Cruella prove a simple truth. Audiences are starving for stories that flip the moral lens. They want to walk a mile in the villain's boots, see the world from the shadows, and find humanity where this, that's a type, where he where the story we all know and and said there was none.
T.C.:What? Find find the humanity where the story we all know said there was none. Okay. Dream Spine Pictures is officially commissioning developments on what will brand the wicked, a prestige four quadrant feature that reframes a legendary villain as a misunderstood hero of their own myth. Recontextualize a known character from folklore myth or classic tale as a tragic sympathetic or righteous protagonist.
T.C.:We're not spoofing or parodying. Explore a moral complexity. We want you to think if this villain was right all along, what story would they tell? Original, cinematic, world recognizable, epic, emotional, dark, funny, if earned. The so called villain must believe they're the hero.
T.C.:By the end, the audience must agree might agree. Music and metaphor essential. If it sings metaphorically, power, gender, faith, legacy, you're on the right track. We're not asking who the villain is. We're asking who made them one.
T.C.:Dream Spine Pictures demands the wicked. Okay. Now we've we've we've discussed this as the wicked treatment. Right? Like, that's sort of the terminology.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you coined that or if if yeah. That's just what you I've heard you say that numerous times, like, the wicked treatment. So, Lenny, Dream Spine, thank you for this demand, the wicked the wicked treatment, Jim.
T.C.:Okay. You you probably have some gears turning already, but I just wanna go on record and say, you know, Maleficent, Cruella, there has been there's been probably a few more. I'm just not thinking of them right here. But, yeah, the idea of looking at a famed villain through the lens of, well, maybe they were the hero all along. I am not a fan of Maleficent as a movie, but whatever.
T.C.:I I I take umbrage with the movie because Maleficent, classically, at least from the Disney version of it, she's the only villain in Disney animated lore that you that literally evokes the power of hell was the word she uses. She is a a demon fairy.
Jim:I mean, you're right. She's the only one that invokes hell. But isn't Surinobog from hell?
T.C.:Surinobog is literally from hell. Yeah. But she she like, as a a being on the mortal plane that just sucks power from hell in order to use it feels more evil than the thing that's from the pit to me.
Jim:A Satanist, if you will.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Hail Saint Nick. Hail Saint Nick. Okay.
T.C.:That was a one battle after another reference. Whatever. Yeah. So the the the reorigin story, Wonka, not a villain per se, but, like, just taking a classic and then reintroducing us to the character. Wicked is sure surely the best version of this considering its success financially and critically.
T.C.:And
Jim:I sorry. You you you said Wonka, and I never imagined Willy Wonka as the antagonist in he is. He he he is the antagonist, but I didn't I never it never was framed that way in my head.
T.C.:Well, good day, sir.
Jim:Because he never right. Because he is sly, and he he set it up in a way that he wouldn't seem that way. Mhmm. But, yeah, he's totally the antagonist.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah.
Jim:Revelations here on
T.C.:Studio Man's. I'm glad I could do that for you. So, yeah, the idea of taking a villain and recontextualizing their story, giving us a a different like, the Huntsman is even an example of this with Snow White, the Huntsman making the Huntsman the protagonist alongside Snow White and giving him he he, at least in the Disney version, he well, no. Classically, he takes sympathy on this child he's supposed to murder and just, I'll take a deer heart and get
Jim:away with it. I like how flippantly your your retelling of it is. Whatever.
T.C.:Well, I'm not gonna okay. So I we we might have to brainstorm here. Like, where do we go with this? This isn't so clear as a direction. It's really open ended to just take a villain and do their story.
T.C.:I don't wanna joke or fy this. But yeah. Do you
Jim:Oh, that's a good point. That is that is also right. Right? There it's in the same vein.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:So the first place that I that I go to is Alice in Wonderland. Okay. Queen of hearts.
T.C.:Queen of hearts. Okay.
Jim:But then as you were reading the demand and and the description, find someone in in in all these different things. The next one I thought of was actually the devil. Yep.
T.C.:I mean, just Satan himself?
Jim:Yeah. Well, because because I thought of the the the Rolling Stone song.
T.C.:Sympathy for the devil? Yeah. Okay. Go on. I'm listening.
Jim:No. That that that's that's mostly it, but I was thinking so the the tack that we would take is right? So the I don't it wouldn't I don't know if it it probably wouldn't even be the whole first act,
T.C.:but
Jim:the the opening establishing would be showing creation before the garden.
T.C.:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Jim:And and showing heaven and the angels and showing loose for Morningstar. Mhmm. Perfectly happy. Loves working beside his creator. Mhmm.
Jim:All all all of these wonderful things. And then suddenly, the creator has this secret little project over on the side. It has a garden. He he Lucifer can see it. What are you what are you making over there?
Jim:It's just it's a special project. Mhmm. He finds out about humans. He finds out about man. Mhmm.
Jim:Mhmm. And he finds out what it's supposed to be, and he he he's hurt. He feels betrayed.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:And he feels he needs to prove. No. No. We're we're we're the the creation. We're we're your we're your first sons.
Jim:We're your first children.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:And and we love you for for it. What what are you what are you doing? You can't make you can't make a second thing. You can't you're just throwing us away. And it's it's all an attempt to prove to prove to prove worthy.
Jim:He he thinks he's worth worthy. He believes he's worthy. He thought he was worthy, and now suddenly he feels he's not. So it's all about proving proving so and proving the fallibility of this new creature called man. And see see, it's just it's it's it's it's not as good.
Jim:You you already made perfection.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:And sympathy for the devil. Right? And I I don't have much more beyond that, the the the full arc
T.C.:Right. Right.
Jim:Right. Of it. But, ultimately, I think and it would be fun if it ended with with the whole thing, but ultimately ending with with a not necessarily a definitive kaiser soze, this was all lies Mhmm. But definitely leaving us thinking, wait. Who The devil just told us that story.
Jim:How much
T.C.:of it can we believe? Yeah. I I don't mind that. That's a fun like, that's a good angle on it to be like, oh, you're the lord of lies. Right?
Jim:Yeah. You know what? That may have even been what the TV show was about. I did not
T.C.:watch it. The yeah. Having Lucifer be, like, I'm the brightest creation of heaven. That's I'm the most I'm the most devoted architect of light.
Jim:And and and, like, and it is hubris that that is supposed to be vanity.
T.C.:His flaws, curiosity, though. That's that's what gets him, at least in traditionally in
Jim:Oh, was? I thought was.
T.C.:So the mythology of the devil, of Lucifer himself, is not biblical. No. It's it is Milton, Paradise Lost, like, Paradise Lost and
Jim:Paradise Lost and then Inferno. Inferno. Yeah. And then Inferno is personal allegory.
T.C.:Yeah. And also a political hit piece Yeah. Of the times. Dante was not, hey, look who's all in hell. All these assholes have pissed me off.
T.C.:Good on them. Right? It's it's funny how much we the mythology of biblical biblical mythology is is seen as, oh, that's that's that's what that was written. That was written. It's like, yeah.
T.C.:It's fan fiction. Like, the Paradise Lost is fan fiction of the devil. Yeah. And and the fall of man and all that. And doing a a devil is the good guy the whole time, I mean, angel pictures might be very interested in this movie.
T.C.:Or is there a devil pictures that I mean, well, Hollywood. Right? I mean, we're right. We're those Satanists themselves. I I don't know if the devil's the right way to go.
T.C.:No. No. That's fine. Yeah. It's a good pitch.
T.C.:To go back to, like, the queen of hearts, now we did get two Disney Alice in Wonderland movies, that dealt with the origin of in the second movie I didn't. I didn't see with Helen of Adam Carter. That first one is a billion dollar movie. That second one is not. But I it's a it is worth noting that Alice in Wonderland has been explored quite a bit.
Jim:In in a in a reverse perspective
T.C.:like that? The well, the second one does give a little bit of insight as to why the queen of hearts is so like, it even goes so far as to just at least in the lore of those two movies, why her head is so big because of the tight the noose around her neck and or the the ribbon around her neck. She has a mister Mackie issue.
Jim:Okay. I don't like Alice or the Mad Hatterham kind.
T.C.:But that's not to say and I'm a big proponent of I haven't heard you tell this story. Sure. So those aside and the fact that you haven't seen it, let's let's talk about the queen of hearts being like, let's do the let's do that. Let's do wicked treatment on the queen of hearts. If we end up ultimately deciding to go another way, sure.
T.C.:But I I wanna honor the fact that that was where your instinct
Jim:Now my my only knowledge of Alice in Wonderland honestly is the Disney movie
T.C.:That's okay.
Jim:Which there is very little Queen of Hearts. It's just Alice eventually wanders across her and she is a raging bitch. And that's it. That's that's everything there is to the queen of hearts in the the Disney's Alice in Wonderland. So I don't know how much of that is actually in the original novel.
T.C.:That the queen of hearts is a psychopath. Like, the original Alice the Looking Glass and Alice in Wonderland is is wonderfully disjointed. Is it is vignette after vignette. There's a lot of, those books are fun to read, but they they are not structured in such a way that they're contemporary.
Jim:Okay.
T.C.:They read like old books. Wizard of Oz, page one, halfway down, she's in Oz. Dorothy is picked up by a tornado and dropped in Oz. By the end by page one, she's there. Yeah.
T.C.:And Glinda, the good witch, doesn't show up until the end of the book. Oh. What? She's not in the book at all till the very end. After the witch is dead Does the wizard disappear in the balloon?
T.C.:Like, oopsie, poodle. And then she's like, what do I do now? Go see Glinda. It's it's very and then and then and then. Still wonderful read.
T.C.:But let's like, the red queen, the the queen of hearts. Right? Yeah.
Jim:But So I I also know that there's there's a lot of other people who've explored the world of of Alice of of Wonderland. Right? Like, there's the there's a You series called the Wonderland Wars, which I assume goes into their own version of this kind of stuff.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah.
Jim:But, like, to me so if this we got this queen, and she's monstrous to seemingly to everyone Mhmm. Around her, her her people, her her soldiers, her husband, to all of Wonderland. It so so why why is that? What what could we concoct? Right?
Jim:In in theory, there are three other royal courts.
T.C.:Oh, sure. To do, like, the deck of cards. Like, that there's the queen of hearts and spades. Yeah. I I I I'm I'm I'm in on this.
T.C.:Okay.
Jim:That be my that that's what I would those are the the begged questions. Mhmm. Right? Like, that that that's what I I extrapolate to. So if there's a kingdom of hearts, there must be a kingdom of the others.
T.C.:Diamonds and clubs and spades.
Jim:Yeah. Well Would those be the only kingdoms? I don't know. We could go with that. No.
T.C.:I think I'm I'm all for the four the four
Jim:Or it might even be something where maybe there were, and now there are only the hearts. The hearts Mhmm. Won whatever contention there was
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:If there was any.
T.C.:Well, I oh, boy. Okay. Check this out. Whether wherever we go with this Mhmm. I like this idea that there are four kingdoms.
T.C.:The queen of hearts is ruling over all the kingdoms. Basically, they've they've the hearts have crushed the land. But in a deck of cards, there's also the jokers. If the jokers are not they're nonsuited, if they are some sort of, neutral law bringers, like that the jokers do not fall under anyone's command because they do not have a suit. They're not loyal to a suit.
T.C.:They are they are, yeah, peacekeepers or lawmen to the whole deck of cards. There there might then we might be able to craft a character or an organization of the jokers that
Jim:Maybe.
T.C.:That that could be our hero to the or the antagonist to our protagonist queen of hearts.
Jim:It depends on the story we're we're gonna tell here.
T.C.:Okay. Okay.
Jim:I don't know why the the idea of making the jesters the some sort of lawman doesn't doesn't strike me. Right? Doesn't rubs me rubs me the wrong
T.C.:way.
Jim:Okay. It feels a little too now I know you said that they're the antagonist, but it feels a little too Tin Man, which which was a beloved short short run television series. Mhmm. Or I guess it was just a miniseries.
T.C.:Miniseries. Yeah. Sci fi Yep. Early two thousands. Neil McDonough was the tin man.
T.C.:Sway Deschanel was Dorothy. Great. Great fun series. I wonder if it holds up. Here's here's the thing.
T.C.:They're not the jokers. They might they have some other term, and it's the it's sort of the propaganda of these these useless gestures to me. These lawmen, they're jokers. That's what I want them to be referred to as now. Like, they have been the propaganda of the the winning house has dubbed them jokers, but they to to sort of make them clowns when really they used to be the the marshals of the land.
Jim:Here's I I think here here's what I don't like about that. It's just gonna be me shooting down
T.C.:your head. It's okay. That's what we do.
Jim:At least my understanding, the way the way I'm coming at it as the notion of the queen of hearts and the deck of cards and all of
T.C.:that Mhmm.
Jim:It's intrinsic to these people's nature. Mhmm. They right? It's not like, I'm a guy who grew up out on a farm, and then I came to the big city, and I joined up with the militia, and I am now the three of hearts.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:He was always the three of hearts. He was a card. He was born a card. Is is a card kind kind
T.C.:of thing. He was born a heart. He is a heart. Yeah. That his station exists there.
Jim:The jokers. It it wouldn't be a title put upon. Mhmm. It would it would just be what who and what they are. Like, thinking about the world of Alice in Wonderland, have we seen may perhaps we've seen the Jokers already.
Jim:Is the Cheshire Cat a Joker?
T.C.:Mhmm. I see. Yeah.
Jim:Is Tweedle are Tweedle Dee and Tweedle dumb actually the Jokers? Mhmm.
T.C.:Okay.
Jim:Probably not. Mhmm. But just ideas. Yeah. I see.
Jim:That's all that's all you're doing as well. Okay. So Well Okay. Which totally is fair. Let the
T.C.:the that's okay. I I'm I've you you you can shoot the idea down. It could be something we'll come back to later. But imagining this is, like, wicked, if we open up with like, even if we're thinking, like, no one mourns no one mourns the wicked is the first song in wicked, and then it goes, how did we get here? And then tells the whole story, which, you know, I'm not a huge fan of, but when it works, it works.
T.C.:And no one we no one mourns the wicked is is a great opening to a to the story of wicked. So having something like the prologue is off with her head. Like, the queen, like, everyone's cheering that the the the the red queen, the queen of hearts is being dragged to her execution, and the people are celebrating this freedom from her tyranny. And and, the then, you know, then we go, like, how did she like, she's she's meeting her end right now, but once upon a time, she was the savior of the land. Something like that.
Jim:Okay. I'm so I'm coming around to the notion of allegory Okay. Some more. Would is that something you'd want to explore where the maybe it's not actually the notion of a deck of cards at all? Like, we can we can utilize it for for some of the language, but Mhmm.
Jim:That's not an intrinsic thing to the world of Wonderland. The the card people aren't people. It's literally people. Mhmm. So what if the queen of hearts original story was she herself was an outsider to Wonderland and came here and was not unlike Alice.
Jim:Mhmm. This this wandering young woman who, in the Queen of Hearts case, was a bit of
T.C.:a
Jim:romantic and got involved in the things that were happening here. And the other kingdoms, the other queens pushed and pushed to the point that, basically, she became a bloody queen, and she didn't like that name. She liked the name or or she basically earned the name queen of hearts Mhmm. Because she took the hearts of all of her enemies.
T.C.:Oh, so she basically becomes this this as I said, that she was, like, once the savior of the land. It's like she starts as a peasant and rises up to conquer these conquer the land?
Jim:Not even well, sort of. Outsider An like Alice, which is why when Alice shows up, she freaks out because she thinks someone's going to come and and eliminate her the way she accidentally at the actually, maybe not so accidentally, the way she got her position.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:Right? Like, you can't have a new queen without losing an old one.
T.C.:So she yeah.
Jim:And she doesn't she doesn't want to be replaced. And and and so maybe from from her perspective, she sees this this young woman come in and everyone is is fascinated by her and nice to her and stuff. She's like, no. No. No.
Jim:No. Off with her head. And that's the other reason she start she started saying off their head because the heart thing became like, she doesn't like that name. She doesn't like being known as the queen of hearts Mhmm. Because because in her backstory I I don't know if it would be I don't know.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:Don't call me
Jim:the queen. She doesn't even wanna be the the red queen. She's the bloody queen. She's the right? The bloody queen is what she's doing.
Jim:Don't call me that. Uh-huh. So they'll start calling her the red queen. Don't call me that. You're the queen
T.C.:of hearts. We love you.
Jim:And but eventually, even that, she knows what that means. Mhmm. She you're you're just saying I'm bloody and cruel because you are. She doesn't want to be perceived that way. She just can't not she can't make it any other way because that's how she is.
Jim:I don't know if there's a story or an arc in there.
T.C.:Well, if if for
Jim:Or if that even sounds No.
T.C.:I interesting. You're onto something. I think that if like, why why did she take the hearts of the people of this of this land? Mhmm. And if her if her feeling or if her belief was that I did it because no one else would save ours save our like, I took their hearts because no one would protect ours.
T.C.:Like, if she sees herself as a as a a a an outsider, a peasant, a farmer who who by the be because of the the power dynamic in this land is like, no. This this will not stand.
Jim:Oh, what if the kingdom that she finds herself in is actually trodden underfoot by the others. Right? Like, they're they're kicked around all because the king is very meek. He is he's very but not just he's not he's not I don't know if cowardly is the right thing. He's just overly friendly.
Jim:He's overly nice. He doesn't want to war. So he he'll make whatever concessions his neighbors demand. Mhmm. But that has eaten so much into his kingdom that they are their kingdom is is nothing.
Jim:Basically a wisp ready to be pushed over, but the other kingdoms, for whatever reason, just haven't yet.
T.C.:Is this the kingdom of hearts? Yes. That he okay. That he's just this wet noodle of a man. Yeah.
T.C.:Just
Jim:And then our our queen comes along. She's not queen yet. Mhmm. And With
T.C.:rose or yeah. Like rose. Sure. Yeah. Because she's you know?
T.C.:Yeah. Red flowers. Painting the roses red. Oh. There's a good tagline.
T.C.:Painting the roses red.
Jim:But, right, her adventure is she comes to this land, and she sees these different kingdoms, these different governments, these different cultures just stomping all over
T.C.:They're corrupt.
Jim:Over this this one.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah.
Jim:Yeah. And she becomes a champion of the people.
T.C.:And she
Jim:maybe even similar to how Alice does, like like the the path. It it's not the same, but it rhymes kind of kind of thing.
T.C.:Sure. Sure. Sure. And she's suitless because she did not she's she's not from Wonderland. She came to Wonderland.
T.C.:Got it. So she's she has no suit.
Jim:Well, there there might not suits might not even be a thing in in this in this version. They they they could be, but they're they're not necessarily a thing.
T.C.:I want to maintain the whimsy of Wonderland and not strip it strip of it of its strip it of its inherent parts. I like the idea that this is four kingdoms and four suits and that the king of hearts sucks. And and she essentially that's the that if she enters this world and sees the corruption of spades, clubs, and diamonds and finds safety within the weakened lands of the hearts, she has a place to start in.
Jim:Mhmm. Okay.
T.C.:Maybe. I don't know.
Jim:Maybe. Would So I I was building to why why she ends up being called the queen of hearts.
T.C.:Oh, I see.
Jim:Because she becomes she becomes champion of these people. Mhmm. She she sort of like was like, no. These people, this is their land. They have a right to it.
Jim:And and she becomes the champion of the people. So much so that the king the king is like, oh, the people love you. I love you. Marry me. Be be my queen.
Jim:And she's like, okay. That sounds good. And she become first, she she first becomes the queen of hearts because she has won over the people. The people love her
T.C.:Sure.
Jim:With their full hearts.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:And then from there, the other three kingdoms are like, oh, you think you can fight back? And it becomes bloody. Mhmm. And now I feel like I'm just trampling onto I don't even again, I haven't read the the the You series, but it feels like it's
T.C.:Don't worry about it.
Jim:It's a no. That person clearly called dibs on any anything dealing
T.C.:with order. An entire Fountain of Youth episode We did. Forgot there's a movie called Fountain of Youth that came out this year Yeah. That I watched and reviewed. So it's okay.
T.C.:It's okay. I if if we're the Wonderland Wars, yeah, if if we're delving in that territory, you can let us know in the comics how or comments how how wrong we are. Yeah. But
Jim:But so so then from there, writes these she she essentially has to lead a war against three kingdoms Mhmm. Who that are trying to to destroy her, these people and her. And so she becomes the blood the bloody queen, the red queen.
T.C.:Right.
Jim:And in so doing, conquers those three kingdoms. There are only hearts left Mhmm. By by by the end of that that arc, that that war. Right? Well, we'll And that's but the thing is that's why she's so cruel.
Jim:Mhmm. Because there's constant rebellions, peep like, from three different regions all being like, you don't rule us. Yes. I do because you tried to you tried to kill us. So instead, I have conquered So you will paint your roses red, and you will do this or I will have your head.
T.C.:Off of the head. Now here's the thing. I I like where you're going with this. However, we are just painting her as a villain. There's nothing righteous about her.
T.C.:She's not she's not the the society that she exists in isn't painting her as a villain. Mhmm. The way Elphaba within the Wicked universe, she's not a villain. She has painted the villain and claim and called to be the propaganda, paints her as the evil Wicked Witch. Mhmm.
T.C.:And she she okay. You wanna see wicked? Fine. I'll give you what you're asking for, but I have my I'm here to defeat the the the wizard because he's the bad guy. And you guys can paint all you want that I'm the villain and this whole world can believe I'm the villain, but I'm not.
T.C.:I am actually fighting the good fight against the actual villain. So that's wicked right there.
Jim:So I didn't I didn't see Cruella. How was Cruella actually in the right?
T.C.:A couple of dalmatians ran up and pushed her mom off a cliff and killed her.
Jim:Wait. Seriously?
T.C.:Yes. She's at a party.
Jim:You're you're pulling my face.
T.C.:She's at a party, and a couple of dalmatians from the the mean lady who has dalmatians run up and knock Cruella's mom off a cliff and kill her. So Dalmatians had it coming, Jim. Really? In Cruella, she eventually embraces her cruelty. She's not it's not like anyone
Jim:And I I thought that is that so that's sort of what I I realized. I I I maybe I sounded made it sound like the queen of hearts was was going evil a bit too early. Mhmm. It's also how it's written how the the perspective it's written from. She doesn't have she doesn't have to be cruel to any of her people.
Jim:It would just be people who keep trying to tear her down, usurpers and and interlopers and stuff.
T.C.:The the trick is to just that spades, diamonds, and clubs. Like, the other three kingdoms, they are the bad guys. Yeah. And but they control this world in such a way that even though our rose here is is fighting the good fight, they have painted her as the it's not that they start calling at least in the wicked idea of this is that it's not that the people start calling her the red queen because she's ripping people's hearts out of their chests. They, the the the powers, make the people perceive her to be evil.
T.C.:She is not evil. But the the the queen as we know her isn't, off with her head. This, like, insane woman. That is perception that is created about her. If if we're gonna follow
Jim:She well, yes. Ultimately, that's the image that has to be painted because she has to be a war queen because she has to fight three kingdoms who are all trying to tear her down. No? That's not No.
T.C.:No. No. I I'm I'm I'm I'm with you on this except for the fact that she is a bloody queen who rips people's heads off and steal and lose their heart.
Jim:Have to. We don't have to do it that way.
T.C.:It's just a matter of
Jim:I just thought it just it played to the
T.C.:Oh, no. It's cool. Like, if we're doing, like, a Game of Thrones style
Jim:Because that's the other thing. Daenerys, you watch all of those seasons. Daenerys, that's another reason why the the the final season didn't work so well because they wanted her her whole turn to happen right there in a couple episodes rather than having her arc across the whole thing. So by time she gets to
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:Westeros, she's already mad and and murderous. Basically, that that's what I'm imagine Daenerys Mhmm. As our queen of hearts. She is only doing what needs to be done to protect her people.
T.C.:I don't know if that
Jim:And from the people she has to fight Yeah. From their perspective, it's going to look bloody and awful because she's going to fight like a lion because she has to.
T.C.:Right. Does that it it does she she's a hero. She's she's
Jim:the She's a hero hero to the to the hearts Mhmm. To to to to her kingdom. Mhmm. Queendom.
T.C.:But to everyone else. To her yeah. To her
Jim:To to the people she is pushing back and ultimately be conquering. Mhmm.
T.C.:I just Don't like Well, I'm I'm That's I like it, but I don't know if it's satisfying the demand. I don't know if we are creating a sympathetic heroic protagonist that society has painted as a villainous.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Because she is killing people. She is beheading people. She is fighting bloody and and terribly so. And, like, that's that's that's a cool story. But when looking at wicked so Elphaba
Jim:It it is innocent. Sure.
T.C.:So there's a No.
Jim:No. No.
T.C.:Please continue. Elphaba is innocence and and exposes the true villains of Oz in the wizard that who is marginalizing people. He's he's stealing power from people. He's a bad guy. Truth be told, he's always been a bad guy.
T.C.:Oz sucks. Oz the great and powerful sucks. He sucks from the beginning. Even in the original book, he sucks. He sucks.
T.C.:And so just giving giving the lens of, like, her sorry. Elphaba is innocent. She has got power that Oz tries to use and and manipulate to make her a pawn in his game. And she's like, no. I'm not gonna do that.
T.C.:You're a bad guy. And he says, fine. You're not gonna let me use your what you got that you're so good at, then I'm gonna make this entire world hate you. And I'm gonna do such a thorough job on it that through this world and the meta contextualization of this character through the narrative of Wizard of Oz that we've had for a hundred years, you will be synonymous with villainy. Witches will be seen as you.
T.C.:You will be considered amongst the greatest villains of all time. That's how well I'm gonna paint a picture of villainy upon your head, Elphaba. And you haven't seen the second half of wicked, so you don't have more context
Jim:That's true.
T.C.:To her story. But just looking at what we got from the first one
Jim:And what about Maleficent?
T.C.:Ugh. Maleficent. We didn't invite her to a party. Oh. Oh.
T.C.:That king stole her fairy wings. Listen. I I don't hate Maleficent. I just I I have a chip on my shoulder about it because it's created when they couldn't get the rights to do wicked. So they just were like, well, what can we do?
T.C.:How do we they're the first wicked treatment. Let's let's just take a character that we can turn into a hero. And
Jim:I'm sorry. I I so for my sort maybe maybe I feel like what I'm missing is the part that makes her sympathetic.
T.C.:There you go.
Jim:Yeah. And because I was glossing over it, I thought it was a given. I think it's not.
T.C.:Okay.
Jim:She becomes queen. The people love her. And she's like, hooray. And now we're gonna I'm we're gonna restore your your farms and your your households and stuff.
T.C.:Okay.
Jim:And the other three kingdoms see this, and they say no, and they burn it all down. Mhmm. They kill her people in front of her. They murder them and say this is what happens when you defy us.
T.C.:Yes. But
Jim:I'm gonna make an r rated movie here.
T.C.:Here's the problem. Yeah. It's and I'm sorry I harping on this so hard. If this is going to be wicked, the entire world needs to think she did that, that she killed all her people, that she is the villain who beheaded an entire an an entire kingdom of people was beheaded because the queen did it. They need to paint that picture to the world, and it's a lie.
Jim:I think I I think you have a more more specific idea of what a wicked treatment is than I do. I feel like it's just protagonizing an antagonist.
T.C.:And it could be that. Maybe maybe we're butting heads over this unnecessarily, but it seems to me that if we're going to take a villain Mhmm. Who and and prove and show that the only reason she's a villain because the we thought were the heroes painted her such, it's all a lie. Everything we know about the red about the queen of hearts is a lie. She's not a hothead.
T.C.:She doesn't behead people. She she actually has a a beautiful heart, and and the world of Wonderland painted her to be this way.
Jim:See, to me, it's so you're saying the movie The Wizard of Oz, the the Wicked Witch of the West we see is not the Wicked Witch in Wicked?
T.C.:Okay. The no. That She
Jim:The So Elphaba doesn't I thought I there is there a point at which she says, fine. I'll be your wicked witch.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:And she goes she's bad. She becomes bad, and she antagonizes
T.C.:The the wizard.
Jim:The the Emerald City?
T.C.:Yeah. But the wizard specifically.
Jim:Sure. Well, there's a difference. If she's just antagonizing the wizard, that's one thing. But in Wizard of Oz, the movie Mhmm. I've not read the book.
T.C.:The Wizard of Oz, the movie that you've seen is the propaganda.
Jim:Okay. Thank you. That we would So so that's so so you're saying the Alice in Wonderland
T.C.:That we know.
Jim:That I've seen is Is the propaganda. Be taken as propaganda.
T.C.:Yes. Because Wicked part two that we're about to see this this winter is going to be Wizard of Oz. We are going to see the Wizard of Oz correctly. That's what act two of Wicked is, is Dorothy shows up, tin man lion, scarecrow, all
Jim:that. Mhmm.
T.C.:And it's the the true story of Wicked.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:So, yes, if if you with that in mind, which is what I've sorry if I haven't been making that clear is how I've been perceiving wicked or how we've been perceiving this is
Jim:Is that it's supposed to be the thing we know is propaganda. Yes. It is not true.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:She is actually a sweetheart.
T.C.:Well, not necessarily. That's a strong word. But I because I like the idea that she's this warrior, that she's literally that she will behead. Like, I imagine her with a sword out there swinging against That the
Jim:can also be the that can also be a part of the propaganda. I don't know how she conquers the three other kingdoms. Mhmm. All of Wonderland fall now falls under the control of the heart the throne of hearts.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:The way she is then vilified is three quarters of her kingdom don't originally follow her. She conquered them. She through through pushing back her foes and taking their lands Mhmm. They feel they feel oppressed, so they don't like her.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:So they portray they they they portray the queen of hearts as not good.
T.C.:So it's a bit like doctor Doomsk, like, Latveria loves doctor Doom.
Jim:But she she doesn't even need to be overly bearing like in the cartoon. Mhmm. It's literally how Alice is told to perceive the world. And in Wonderland, it could very well be that perception is how things actually it is. Eat me, grow bigger, drink me, grow smaller.
Jim:Yeah. Reverse that. Do whatever.
T.C.:Stop and smell the roses.
Jim:Yeah. And so, so you're like, well, who are these antagonists? And literally, the people who are left of the kingdoms of the clubs, spades, and diamonds
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:Are the caterpillar, the walrus and carpenter, the mad hatter, and march hare. Those are all not
T.C.:They're unsuited.
Jim:Citizen what not in a kingdom, they're not citizens. What are they called? Not peons.
T.C.:What's No. The
Jim:There's there's a there's a word. I can't think of the word.
T.C.:The population of of one word.
Jim:They're not they're not people of of hearts. Mhmm. They are people of the other suits, so they don't stand with the queen of hearts. They want to see the queen of hearts fall.
T.C.:Okay. Yes.
Jim:Okay. So to them, everything she does is awful and terrible, and she only wants to kill us all. Mhmm. But it's because they're all oh my god. I I'm I'm losing my vocabulary.
Jim:They're all infiltrators. They're all
T.C.:Usurpers of the throne. No.
Jim:Yeah. They're they're all Okay. Renegades.
T.C.:The the
Jim:If you No.
T.C.:No. No. I like where you're going here. I'm I think if we break this movie into two acts like Wicked, the first act is her her rise to power. The the defeat of
Jim:Saving the world.
T.C.:Yeah. She saves the world from the three other suits. She she's deemed a hero by her people and a villain by everyone else. She saves the the kingdom of hearts has been saved and safe. It's safe and secure because of her.
T.C.:She comes in. She literally steals the magic hearts out of the other rulers, whatever.
Jim:Doesn't even have to be that literal. It could literally she could have gotten the name the queen of hearts because she won over the The hearts of her the original people.
T.C.:Having multiple meanings behind it that she Sure. From the kingdom of hearts, that she won the hearts of the people, that she takes the heart of her enemies. Like, all that. She rises apart. It's a victorious halfway point.
T.C.:Yay. Our queen. Butts. And then Alice shows up, and Alice is the the the second person in Wonderland of recent history, however many how much ever time we want to have passed in in the in rose rose's rise, that when she shows up, she appears in the other suit's lands. She appears in the spades or the dimes or whatever.
T.C.:And it's like, wow. This place is weird and broken. Whatever this war is, like, unleash the this is already a whimsical land, but the unchecked power of everything outside the kingdom of Roses has made wonderland a nightmare scenario. Like, not like a dark, grim, you know, r rated No. Wonderland.
Jim:But, like,
T.C.:the Cheshire cats running around, twiddle dee twiddle dum. We got animals running rampant singing
Jim:in smoking caterpillar.
T.C.:All that stuff. So when Alice shows up and is unsuited, she has no suit. Sure. She's another unsuited, but just like Rose was, then we have someone of the other suits has to discover her and say, you're our savior. You can help us defeat the evil Red Queen, the queen of hearts.
T.C.:She's a villain. You must destroy her. And now we have our Dorothy to to the witch situation. And then Sure. Then we can fall in line to what the original Alice in Wonderland is, where, like, she gets to the kingdom of hearts.
T.C.:She 's put on trial for curiosity or whatever her, crime was against the queen Mhmm. In Alice in Wonderland. And now it's Alice versus the queen of hearts as she perceives it and we're seeing, oh, this is how it's always been. But we now have the context of a whole half of a movie of, like, oh, man. What this woman did to get her power, and now they're gonna take it away from her because Alice doesn't know any better?
Jim:Okay.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Does that like, I'm trying to honor all these I think so. Yeah. Yeah.
T.C.:Your your idea of this rise to power and then the the defeat.
Jim:Because because we're dealing with a queen, so I feel like like dealing with all of that is is appropriate.
T.C.:Yeah. I think so. Like, having it be Lord of the Rings with with cats and caterpillars, maybe something like that.
Jim:Sure. It doesn't we don't even we don't have to go that hard. We could we could have each thing rather than being a big war. We're like, you assemble your army and I'll assemble mine and they'll meet in the middle. It could instead we could play into the notion of of cards and literally, it's it's the the face cards they meet, and she has to defeat them in whatever weird royal games they have.
Jim:Mhmm. And but but she manages to.
T.C.:That the queen does? Mhmm. Yeah. That she goes up against all the other suits and whatnot. It's very Game of Thrones y.
T.C.:Wizard of Oz of Game of Wizard of Oz Thrones. Game of game of hearts. Game of game of cards.
Jim:Game of cards.
T.C.:Game of cards.
Jim:Okay. Don't get lost in the shuffle.
T.C.:Oh. HBO presents, there's boobs. Okay. Paint paint the whole full arc for me again. I know that that repeating this in this beat it out for me.
T.C.:Just give me a Go ahead. A beat by beat of Rose. The story of the the queen of hearts.
Jim:Rose comes to Wonderland Mhmm. Is enchanted by this this magical place. Only she finds the the people that she's come to meet.
T.C.:And she has no suit. She's unsuited.
Jim:Sure. Okay. I I'm I'm not fully understanding what this term unsuited means. That that's fine.
T.C.:Heart Diamond Spader Club. You belong to a kingdom.
Jim:You Okay.
T.C.:You have a suit to your name. Cool. She's an outsider who comes in with no suit.
Jim:Okay. And and she she's she had has has whimsical adventures even akin to Alice, albeit they're they're in the the kingdom of hearts. And but she finds that these people are being oppressed, essentially Mhmm. By the the three other kingdoms. Not unlike when Dorothy shows up, she sees the Munchkins being oppressed by the witch.
Jim:Mhmm. I don't know how it happens in wicked. I just know how it happens in the propaganda.
T.C.:So
Jim:she's like, well, that's no good. I love you people. And they're all like, we love you, Rose. And so she says, I will help you. And she, I don't know, tells the tax man to kick rocks.
Jim:Mhmm. Right? The tax man is all like, woah. No one's ever told me to kick rocks.
T.C.:I will literally do this, but I am not happy about it.
Jim:And the people are like, yay. We don't have to pay the that tithe anymore. We don't have to pay the three tithes. And they're like, you should be our queen. And the king's like, well, the people want it.
Jim:Be my queen. And she becomes the queen. And that's when the the three kingdoms are like, nah, son. You sent our taxman back. We're not gonna stand for that.
Jim:And they they raise hell, they raise the entire kingdom of hearts. Okay. I I'm realizing that's a a Disney Square Enix game. Kingdom Hearts.
T.C.:Kingdom Hearts. You're right. It's a it's a nah. It's an homage. We did it in we did it on purpose.
T.C.:It's an homage. Sora's in the background in the second scene. If you pay attention when they get to the king, he's back there.
Jim:Oh, oh.
T.C.:There's Mickey and Goofy and Don.
Jim:And Rose is all like, oh, no. This kingdom that I just became the queen of has been destroyed entirely, they tried to kill me, but it didn't quite work. I must avenge my newly adopted people. And she goes and maybe it's not raising an army. She she just goes to the the central the central palace where the other three kingdoms actually have what what what would you call it?
T.C.:Like a hub? Like a central hub?
Jim:Sort of. Yeah. And they they leave the kingdom of hearts out. It's it's just the three of them where they negotiate between each other. And she goes there and she demands satisfaction, essentially.
Jim:And they say, ah, you dare you dare challenge us again. You shall now play our games. And she beats them at their games. Mhmm. Ultimately, defeating them and turning them around back on them.
Jim:The games themselves were deadly games that they had planned killing Rose during. But because she managed to escape and turn it back around on them, they died instead. And now she is the sole ruler of the four kingdoms.
T.C.:And there's our halfway point. Victory. Sure. She is she is she has come all this way. She has defeated the evil.
T.C.:She has proven her worth. She she was able to win at all these games that were meant to kill her. And they see the the glory of the red queen, of the queen of hearts. Like, yes. All hail rose Yeah.
T.C.:And the queen of hearts. Yay. Halfway point. Oh. Oh.
T.C.:But they slink away. A couple of those suits slink away. Oh, we will we will be back to defeat her. She she can't yes. Go back to your kingdom.
T.C.:Go back to your castle in the in the kingdom of hearts and, but, no, we we shall plot. We shall destroy. We'll find a way to defeat the queen and and take back our lands from her. There's your halfway point?
Jim:Okay. Yeah. Continue. Yep. No.
Jim:I I don't know that I had any more for for I guess, the second half is her attempting to rule with the fair and gentle hand that she had previously Mhmm. Keeps getting undermined. The the original her original peep the the ones that survived still love her and and do what she wants. That's that's why they need to paint the roses red because those white roses were in a completely different court's courtyard. So so that that's them establishing that that she is the queen of this area because the white roses are are and and there can there would be other symbols are are symbols that she is not the queen.
Jim:Mhmm. Does that make sense?
T.C.:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Anything that would honor the previous rulers, they're trying to they're trying to say no. Like, if you if you are loyal to this the clubs, you are not loyal to me.
T.C.:The clubs were villains. I am the good guy. You do not wanna you know, I don't wanna be a a club. So either paint your roses red
Jim:or Yeah. And and it doesn't even need to be worded that way. Like, the the order to paint the roses red, maybe that even doesn't even come from her. That's just that's how how things are done. Mhmm.
Jim:Okay. So yeah. So then there there's this this rising rebellion, basically, out from the the wilds beyond the beyond the palace, beyond the the castle walls.
T.C.:And then at this point, does Alice show up? Actually, was curious. Could Alice have been summoned? Like, could they could the remaining suits, like, few exist, could they have maybe summoned they're trying to summon an outsider to their land? Because because be having an association with any suit and and bringing in another outsider.
T.C.:An outsider came in and destroyed this whole place in the first the first swing around. Why not bring another outsider in to try again to to just create a cycle of outsider comes in.
Jim:The white rabbit.
T.C.:The white oh, so the white rabbit actually, like, goes and seeks out Alice. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. So, yeah, they like, the remaining suits send the white rabbit to find an outsider
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:To to to come to come to Wonderland and and defeat the queen. Mhmm. And and Alice does so. But but okay. So then is the queen killed in the end?
T.C.:I we're we're now off the we're off the beaten path here. We can do whatever we want. And I don't wanna say too much about how Wicked decides to play out the the Wizard of Oz out because they make some new choices in the fan fiction that is this. So we can make bold choices with how Alice faces. So in in the two Disney movies, we got the two Tim Burton well, Tim Burton did the first one, whatever.
T.C.:The two Disney ones. We do get this, like, big Lord of the Rings CG battle scene with with Alice wearing armor going up against
Jim:I don't think we should do that. Okay. That's why I like the I like this notion of she she needs to play the royals games, and then the rest of the kingdom just says, oh, yes. If our if our royalty fell, we submit, but they don't really.
T.C.:So is Rose destroyed in the
Jim:end? No. Oh, well, I I don't think so. I'd what I like in it but I'm not sure that is what we're supposed to be doing here is she is driven to become the apoplectic monstrous being
T.C.:To be yeah. Like, she's driven to become the monster she she's always been painted at. Yeah. Okay. The ah.
T.C.:Like, so they they poison her mind. Is there something in that that they
Jim:Maybe.
T.C.:Isn't just, like, driving her there, that they literally poison her into becoming insane. What do you think of that? I mean, we have a lot of potions and whatnot being drank in Alice in Wonderland's lore anyway, so why not?
Jim:Can we make that cool and not just tragic and sad?
T.C.:Like a like a like an eighth season turnaround where Daenerys suddenly started burning the entire King's Landing? I don't know. I think we could do better than that. If she if she's seemingly into a story in the end but, like, leaves Wonderland, I think, the
Jim:Well, because in the end in the end of Alice in Wonderland, she isn't killed. Alice just gets away. Right? She just gets back to the real world.
T.C.:We don't get to see what happens to the queen in Alice's Moreland. Alice escapes. Alice gets away. Yeah. I
Jim:I I'm not I you you know what? Now that I'm I'm I'm realizing I've not seen any of these wicked treatment movies. I I I
T.C.:That's okay.
Jim:Don't know all of wicked. I don't know all of Cruella. I don't know molescence. You were you're But the because the thing is my assumption was actually all of them were building up. They were all they're all prequel.
Jim:I thought they were all prequels. Mhmm. So they build up to, okay. And where this ends
T.C.:Is where
Jim:this you now know the villain story so we can watch the story you do know.
T.C.:But, no. The way all those wicked Maleficent Cruella all play out is about halfway through the story you've always known plays out.
Jim:But just not necessarily as you thought it did.
T.C.:And a whole new perspective on it because you have the context of everything that comes in the first half. So it's like a skewed perspective. Right? Yeah. So I I I don't actually, you know what?
T.C.:For for the sake of our listeners listening to this who may have seen any number one of number of these, having we need to find an ending for our queen
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:That both honors the original stuff, creates some new version of how that plays out, and doesn't rip off the existing material out there. I have seen all these things, so I'm trying not to completely replicate one a, b, or c Cruella, Maleficent, Wonka.
Jim:Well, one thing we haven't done actually is establish what Rose wants.
T.C.:Yes. Yeah. Like, what is if initially it's like
Jim:Is returning home Yeah. A thing she wants?
T.C.:Well, I think if if, like, she so she comes to Wonderland. She's she's just the whimsy of it. The cards are dancing. Clocks hiccup, and and and flowers sing. And, the Cheshire cat could even be, like, a narrator to this explaining, like, introduces the concept of the land ruled by the four suits, if you're still on board with the with the four suits and each each, each of these kingdoms have their their power dynamic going.
T.C.:But said they're dazzling but cruel. They're corrupted, and the queen and the kingdom Of Hearts has been crushed the most by these three other kingdoms. Just that the shift of the shift of power within Wonderland is always sort of moving amongst the Mhmm. Maybe once upon a time, the the central kingdom shifts, like, kinda like, it's a four party system. Oh.
T.C.:So that, like, if there's some sort of clock elements or, like, you know, the white rabbit is, I'm late. I'm late. I'm late. If that if the the lands are constantly sharing the the the central power and that when it came time for the hearts to be take have their turn, diamonds, clovers, and diamonds, clubs, and and spades are like, nope. We're gonna keep it this time, and and it's the three of them.
T.C.:I don't know. I'm trying to,
Jim:like Mhmm.
T.C.:If we crush down the the land of the hearts, then when a girl shows up, Rose shows
Jim:A girl?
T.C.:She has no suit. She has no heart. She just has a heart. She has no crown. She has no suit.
T.C.:She just has heart. And if she tumbles through Wonderland from some outside place. So like we've like we suggested that the suits summon Alice, perhaps Rose was summoned in a similar fashion so that she's she's amazed by everything. She's innocent to everything. She's welcomed by the common folk, the, like, the the wanderers and the the the Cheshire cats, if you if you will, and then, and the oppression that they face that she, like, she takes sympathy on that and starts the rebel.
T.C.:And I suggested that as you've already painted more than once for me now. But just giving giving this notion of she came in with all this wonder into Wonderland, this curiosity, and she marvels as it at it. And slowly, all that shine and wonder goes away when it becomes this battle for what is right. Don't don't crush these people. Let let these let these wonderful, colorful, unique things exist out of your control.
T.C.:It doesn't need to be so the power goes here. We have all the power and the magic and everything. And that's like the people should be allowed to exist, and she becomes this avatar for the people, this this outspoken queen of hearts. Her heart is so strong. Her power is so strong in her empathy and and and speaking for the people.
T.C.:What they think what they tried to make Katniss Everdeen in the Hunger Games. Right? Like, she's the she's this
Jim:Kind of. Yeah. Warrior. Okay.
T.C.:But power corrupts that once she has defeated all the suits and she she gains the the the love of some of the kingdom and is now put in a position of power of saying, like, and this is how the land shall be ruled. And any any fight against that slowly becomes, no. This is how the land will be ruled. And she she skews more tyrannical little by little. Yeah.
T.C.:So then when Alice is summoned, the process repeats itself over again.
Jim:Well, sort of. She's now tyrannical to the point that, like, she's wary. She like like, she thinks she knows the tricks that her enemies are going to play. So when she hears of Alice Mhmm. She she thinks, oh, I know what you're going to do.
Jim:You're gonna try doing to me.
T.C.:What I did. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I love the idea that, well, even before Alice shows up that the three suits, like, take seek revenge after she defeats them that they that the other kingdoms, like, unite against her, and they call, they, like, call to arms, and they they that this they they destroy the kingdom of hearts. They slaughter the citizens.
T.C.:The king is murdered. They burn the land ash. And it and the scene like, that ends with her in a theory where she just gathers all the the gestures and beasts and broken cards, she leads them to the Central Kingdom for that tournament. Like, the the the challenge of the remaining rulers to a tournament of suits. Sure.
T.C.:And and this but and they see it as a spectacle to kill her as as a Yeah. Like, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay, queen of hearts.
T.C.:Let's see what you got. But she's she's cunning. The power of her heart just gives her so much more power over these corrupted assholes. I think she should have magic at this point or at least her wits has allowed her to utilize the the magic of Wonderland to defeat everybody. And it's not through like, it's not through cruelty, but through strategy.
T.C.:And
Jim:and Well, that that's not I'd like, I I don't think she should have magic. I I, like, I like her as an outsider, and so her her strange outside logic
T.C.:Mhmm. Yes.
Jim:Yes. Yes.
T.C.:I I'm I'm gonna agree. I I
Jim:I guess could be her magic. Right. The same way Alice eventually solves the riddles. Like, this is absurd. I'm gonna walk through this door now.
T.C.:Right. I I agree with you. I I didn't mean to suggest that Rose has magic. It's that she's using the world around her Sure. Strategically.
T.C.:Excuse me. She understands. And then she's crowned the the the the queen of all wonderland.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:And then the four suits are dissolved and that they they they have no banner anymore. There's only one banner. It's the red heart. That is the banner, and and all will fall suit fall suit and fall to that suit. And then you're suggesting that the people who love and admire her, they're the ones who, like, paint the roses red.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:You gotta do that. You you wanna upset our queen.
Jim:Yeah. And There's only one suit.
T.C.:Yeah. She never asked for that. It's just that the people who who championed her Mhmm. Are now becoming cruel towards those survivors who like, the the rulers were the bad guys here. Their citizens weren't weren't inherently evil.
T.C.:Mhmm. Their leaders were. Right? Or do you do you imagine that all No. I'm I'm imagining Like, the full on kingdoms are, like, screw the roses?
Jim:Sort of. Yeah.
T.C.:The the screw the hearts.
Jim:Basically, what I'm suggesting is it's it's all it's all reversed. Mhmm. Right? The Mad Hatter is a bad guy. He is manipulating Alice to to do what he wants.
Jim:The same the same with the caterpillar.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:Yeah. Every every the the Cheshire cat, everyone along the way is getting Alice to go over here now. Oh. Well well What what are you up to? Yeah.
Jim:Yeah. How about this?
T.C.:Before we get to that though, before we get because yes. Yeah. I I the that's that manipulation of Alice, I think that, like, if we're thinking like that halfway point where she triumphantly takes she's the queen of all wonderland, having that that moment of shining glory, red petals falling like balloons and celebration and then panning down to the shadows and the darkness. Absolutely. And having the Cheshire cat have a moment of, like, like, the Cheshire cat being our our narrator in a sense, like, turning to the audience and saying, like, like, be, like, be careful when you fix a mad world because the world may, like, the the way it may fix you back or something like that.
T.C.:Sure. Like, this world is meant to be mad, so be careful when you try to fix it. Some some Sure. Cool little clippy thing like that before we fade to black in the the triumph that slowly becomes dissonance as we see the shadows of that are always lurking at the edges.
Jim:Yeah. The the new queen sits in her tower, but remember, towers always topple.
T.C.:Yeah. Oh, that that's good. That's better than what I said. Mad mad queen. Because then years later, like, whatever that that you know, then then Wonderland is still whimsical.
T.C.:It's a little quieter. It's, it's more structured. The weird stuff is sort of secluded in specific places. The Red Queen rules from from her her tower, her her crimson castle, and it's order and it's perfection, and she likes it that way. She this victory is great, and the and the people the sending the the rabbit out, I think, is a fun idea that the suits send a rabbit outside of Wonder to try to draw in to find an outsider, someone someone unsuited that can break Wonderland again.
T.C.:We'd rather have we'd rather have Wonderland be in shambles than rule than live under her rule. Yeah?
Jim:Sort of.
T.C.:Okay. Go ahead. Yeah.
Jim:Well, so I'm trying to get on board this suit idea. Mhmm. And I'm I got an I got an idea that's cooking.
T.C.:I feel like if I keep saying it, you'll you'll get on board. But no. That's okay. Do do you wanna take a little break right now? Are you ready?
T.C.:Do you have the momentum and you wanna
Jim:Either.
T.C.:Okay. If you got the momentum, I'll keep going.
Jim:So so my thought is I'm I'm imagining each of these each of the suits Mhmm. Have essentially an adviser. And and I'm thinking maybe the white rabbit is the the court of court of hearts adviser Mhmm. Which is why he's running late for the queen of hearts. I forget what it wasn't a coronation.
Jim:I forget what he was running late.
T.C.:Well, birthday part. An unbirthday.
Jim:Well, wait. What? What? It was an unbirthday?
T.C.:No. No. No. No. No.
T.C.:Yeah. That that that no worries.
Jim:Well, because that that's an interesting idea. If it was the queen of hearts birthday and the Mad Hatter and March Hare are celebrating an unbirthday, it's literally they are they're they're celebrating the reverse of the queen's birthday.
T.C.:It was it was the I don't in the book, there's no there's no clear indication of what his obligation is. It's just that he's late.
Jim:Okay. Yeah. And maybe that's still the case. Maybe because maybe that's just what he's using to keep running, to keep Alice chasing. Mhmm.
Jim:But, ultimately, what I'm thinking is each suit has some sort of adviser. It is the jack of each suit.
T.C.:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Jim:The white rabbit is the jack of hearts. The Cheshire cat is the jack of spades.
T.C.:Mhmm. Okay.
Jim:And the four jacks, including hearts, have decided, we don't like this. We don't like one queen. Mhmm. And and so we wanna undermine this. And we shall do this by, White Rabbit, you will go and you will bring another outsider.
T.C.:Yeah. Leave Wonderland through this portal and
Jim:And find so and this outside. And so that way, for the first half of the movie, we actually can see some of these characters as well sort of behind the other characters. Mhmm. The Cheshire cat sits on the shoulder of the queen of spades. Mhmm.
Jim:And or maybe they're not jacks. Maybe they're maybe they're the aces to stick with the the
T.C.:The royal suits and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Jim:Or maybe the entire notion of outsiders are what jokers are. So Rose was originally a joker. Mhmm. But then she became suited.
T.C.:Yeah. Okay.
Jim:We need a new Joker.
T.C.:Getting getting Polis inside. And what's nice is, like, even just visually if we go with traditional Rose being dark hair, dark eyes, and Dorothy is light hair Alice. Alice. Sorry. It's an yeah.
T.C.:It's an honest mistake. Having door fuck. Alice. Having Alice be light haired, light eyes. It's a nice juxtaposition that like, to to the citizens when Alice shows up, she's this legend reborn, but to Rose, she's a she's like a prophecy
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:Reef like a threat resurrected. And then now Alice Alice is enters into Wonderland bubbly and curious and reckless Mhmm. And and everything that Rose used to
Jim:be. Yeah.
T.C.:And then and now what can unfold here is this journey towards the the fall of the of the queen of hearts.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:Okay. Well, with that, now we're gonna take a break right here and
Jim:just Okay.
T.C.:Take we're gonna take our five. We'll be right back here, folks. Here's some quick messages from six five meeting. We're painting the roses red. We're painting the roses red.
T.C.:Okay. So Alice is summoned not by chance but by conspiracy
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Because the white rabbit works for the other suits.
Jim:Yes.
T.C.:Right. Okay. And if the plot is to undermine the queen and reawaken the chaos in Wonderland. Mhmm. Okay.
T.C.:So the like, the the way they so, yeah, Alice is then brought into Wonderland and and and shown the chaos or, like, the how bad Wonderland is so that she's motivated to defeat the queen. What's your what's your blink on this?
Jim:No. I think she's entirely duped.
T.C.:Because, like, Alice can't help but question, like, would question it because she sees this, like, sees beauty and she sees she sees freedom in the like, what the queen's doing. Right? Like, she's like, what's so bad about this lady? Or No. No.
T.C.:Paint a picture of, like, like, she's corrupt and evil and
Jim:look I think they'd paint the picture that she's corrupt and evil.
T.C.:Yeah. So Alice is definitely being this is an innocent victim in all this that she okay. Yeah.
Jim:Yeah. And I think I don't think Alice needs to, like, defeat or destroy the queen. I think even just sticking with the story where she's like, nah. I'm noping out. I I don't want any part of this.
Jim:The thing is the chaos will have already been sewed. Mhmm. So Rose, the the other three kingdoms are restored. So it I I don't know.
T.C.:In the in the end? Well, it's it's
Jim:it's Well, in in the end, it's it's yeah. The other they don't defeat. They don't necessarily drive. They don't destroy the kingdom the kingdom of heart the kingdom of hearts the way that they had previously.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:But they they do rise back up and assert their
T.C.:their
Jim:their positions so that, like, oh, and so now we go around again.
T.C.:I yeah. And there might be some allegory in that. There might be some allegory in, like, not learning from history and, like, continuing to put the structure in place that this is how it's always been. The structure should be this way. And when someone tries to to break the structure
Jim:Oh, because what if right. So Alice gets summoned. We have some castle adventures or whatever.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:And the but ultimately, she goes before the queen, and the queen, being fair Mhmm. Says, okay, visitor, miss miss outsider, miss wild card. If if you really do seek my power no. That that's not what I seek. That's not what I've been told.
Jim:That's not what you said.
T.C.:You were here to to take my throne and
Jim:my crown. Eaten my things and drank my drinks and it's
T.C.:Don't lie to me, Alice.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:I know I I have heard your legend as much as you have heard mine. I know why you're here. You you want to topple this empire like I've toppled it before.
Jim:Something like that. Yeah. And so what she does is she says, you have to beat me at my game. And like the people previously, the queen has to put on a game that Alice must win that that is conspired against her. Mhmm.
Jim:But ultimately, Alice does win through her own clever logic, but also through the manipulation of Cheshire Cat and the other conspirators.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:She wins, and Rose realizes this may be her end because the same way her adversaries previously were ended when she won their games Mhmm. She now is is is at the mercy of Alice. And why would Alice have mercy? She has not been a good host.
T.C.:What's what's wild is that Alice is, like, 12. Like Yeah. They make her this low.
Jim:She doesn't have to.
T.C.:I know. Know. Like, in in the Alice in Wonderland movies at Disney Days, she's an adult, and she has agency. I think there's something to manipulating a child into doing all this. Like, she's a little girl Yeah.
T.C.:Per se, but having still an innocence and naivete to her that she could be manipulated against the queen this way. But please continue.
Jim:And and ultimately right. So so I don't I don't know if it's like Alice is over her with, I don't know, a weapon or whatever, but but Alice now has the power of the upper hand and is being incurred, the Cheshire Cat on her shoulder whispering off yeah. Like like that kind of thing. And more and more and more people are off their head, off their head.
T.C.:Off their head.
Jim:And and it it it grows and grows. And Alice, right at the moment where she would do it, she goes, no.
T.C.:I I just wanna go home.
Jim:Yeah. Yeah. And she drops whatever implement and she runs off and chaos breaks out.
T.C.:Particularly if Rose's whole edict was that she's like, I'm trying to preserve the peace in Wonderland
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Or it'll tear itself apart again. That's what I'm trying to do. Like her her feeling it. And so then, yeah, chaos erupting around her, the mockery of off with her head and, like
Jim:Actually, that that jumping back to her conversations with the other three royals, the the other three suits when when they're like they they can say something really similar like, no. This is all controlled chaos. We're in control here. If we did not have this iron grip on things, it would be a loony bin. Like like, there can even be an earlier scene where she sees a a madhouse or something like that to to see what it would be like without the control, which is why after she defeats the other the others, she's she realizes someone needs to be in charge.
Jim:I have to be in charge.
T.C.:Yeah. Because the like, the original madness of, like, clocks melting and teacups flying through the air.
Jim:Oh, doh. We're forgetting one of the coolest things in this setting.
T.C.:Words losing meaning go ahead.
Jim:Yeah. Because literally, the order and structure of the court of the the the the courts, the the the
T.C.:The suits.
Jim:The suit. The yeah. That is what keeps the Jabberwock from destroying everything.
T.C.:Oh, yeah. But that's through the
Jim:Because the
T.C.:looking glacier. Right? Yeah.
Jim:Is that not is is the Jabberwocky not not in Wonderland?
T.C.:No. The the Jabberwocky is in is a poem within
Jim:But she encounters the Jabberwocky. No?
T.C.:Jabberwocky is a nonsense poem. It's a poem that is about the killing of the creature of the Jabberwocky. That's the poem. And it was it's in Through the Looking Glass, the sequel to Alice in Wonderland. Oh.
T.C.:And she doesn't actually look back she doesn't actually face the Jabberwocky. Jabberwocky is in the BBC presentation of the Allison Mono.
Jim:Maybe that's what I'm remembering. I
T.C.:don't remember. I don't think Basically Whatever.
Jim:The the reason I'm invoking it is, basically, the Jabberwocky is our embodiment of chaos Mhmm. And and destruction. And if there is not someone in control, it will take over.
T.C.:It's like a djinn being released from the bottle without any restraint. Yeah.
Jim:As as long as there's someone in charge, it is it is abated. It it is calm. It is asleep. Mhmm. But it is it it is the wild heart wild heart of Wonderland itself.
Jim:And if without someone in charge, it it will take control. It will take over.
T.C.:So let's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like I think you got something.
T.C.:Especially if we establish even in the at the prologue of this about the the the chaos of Wonderland was unleashed by the Jabberwocky. Like, the Jabberwocky tore through Wonderland and and made all the nonsense. Sure. And that was slowly contained by the defeat of the Jabberwocky and the containment of it in the central point of Wonderland. And while the the the whimsy still exists, the houses, you know, the power and then century passed and all that was forgotten Lord of the Rings style.
Jim:Sure. Yeah.
T.C.:And so having the Jabberwocky be an entity that's established early when the we have our first act, rise of the queen. Our our second act is Alice coming in. We play those beats out where Alice and the queen face off, and Alice makes the decision of, no. I'm not gonna kill her. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna offer.
Jim:I just wanna go home. Mhmm.
T.C.:And then they're like, okay, Alice, you're free to go. Take her away. And the queen is being, like, escorted out, seemingly the end of the movie. Then the Jabberwocky is unleashed And now we have a a a supervillain threat that needs to be defeated, and and the queen could be the one who defeats him? Like, bring make her the hero of the land again?
Jim:Sure. It it doesn't have to be through slaying the dragon. Although, it probably could be. Get that Vorpal sword snickersnack.
T.C.:Yeah. Snickersnack. Yeah. I have to yeah. I mean, that's kinda fun that that the Jabberwocky is
Jim:Actually, to that end, I like the idea that the Jabberwocky can be killed multiple times.
T.C.:Yeah. Like, it just you you diff you kill it, it's once again reduced to much like the cyclical nature of what we just saw within Wonderland of, like, creating creating cycles, like the cycle of a clock, the cycle of the outsider coming in and destroying Wonderland, reestablishing reestablishing the strength of Wonderland, it gets destroyed again, that the Jabberwocky is destroyed almost like a phoenix where it's
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Put down to a tiny little thing and will then oh, it's not destroyed forever. It'll grow again and all this will happen again. That's that is the that is the that is what chaos is. You can never even within control, this part of the of breaking the system is is cyclical and it has to happen. Like, we must lose control.
T.C.:Control can never be contained entirely. Entirely. We must lose control. Like, that the Sure. The idea of the Jabberwocky, the idea of the the savior who becomes the villain, like, the cyclical stuff.
T.C.:There's some fun stuff in that. Yeah. And and if the Jabberwocky is released in especially if he's established throughout, if that
Jim:What do think about the so
T.C.:So the cycle, and therefore, that created the chaos necessary for the Jabberwocky to escape. And also supposed to be queen. I just wanna go home. I'm 12.
Jim:Yeah. So then Rose has to step up, defeat the Jabberwock, and then for what do you what do you think of for a denouement? She says, look, you guys, I can't do this alone. Yeah. I I need three more suits.
T.C.:Oh, divide up the world back into the four suits. Yeah. She redivides the world up into I like that. That's kinda fun.
Jim:Yeah. Albeit more fairly now. It's not the three kicking kicking the one.
T.C.:Yeah. And then we we the status quo is returned after all this nonsense. And it it sort of goes to how Peter Pan being
Jim:Well, it's not even stat right. Status quo would have been where we started, which was
T.C.:The four suits being in control. We're at the midpoint.
Jim:Well, the the three suits. The the the the kingdom of hearts being
T.C.:oppressed. Yes. That that that that would be, like, midpoint of the of the cycle that is Wonderland. But her going back to the Jabberwocky escaping, the bal the balance is broken like the old chaos awakens the nightmare of Rose's reign is actually what kept it contained.
Jim:Mhmm. Excuse me. You talk. Oh, yeah. Because, yeah, because we're recording here.
Jim:We're not just hanging out.
T.C.:I'm back.
Jim:Good job. You talk.
T.C.:Rose is is imprisoned, and she's reviled. And the roar of the of the Jabberwocky, however we wanna manifest it, only she has the the heart necessary
Jim:to Well, and what we would see is Yeah. The the the conspirators, Cheshire Cat, White Rabbit Mhmm. Two others we can find, They think they basically, they think they will now ascend to being in control. Mhmm. But by their very nature, they cannot be.
T.C.:Yeah. They are they are not suited for this job. Yeah. So Rose is the one who has to fight the Jabberwocky with her. She proved her strategy.
T.C.:She proved she has the heart. She cares about this land too much, essentially. And so she unites the entire Wonderland against the Jabberwocky to defeat it. And in the end, they're like, okay. You can be our queen again.
T.C.:And she's like, no. No. I don't wanna do that. What the hell?
Jim:No. No. It's not that she abdicates the throne. She says, okay. But I'm not going to do it alone.
T.C.:Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That she she says, you know
Jim:I I see the wisdom of four suits. We must we must always have the four suits.
T.C.:The the world with one heart will stop beating. It it's it's the world of with four can dance forever or something like that. That's like some there's a bit of poetry there. Okay.
Jim:So I'm just gonna talk like That's your voice now? This is this is what
T.C.:the voice sounds like. I think I inhaled some dust from Sour Patch Kids, and just a couple grains of it went down the wrong side. Tasty.
Jim:Yeah. I I think we got we got a thing here.
T.C.:The world in the Cheshire just winking back to the audience, like and that's how that's how the the Wonderland Wonderland was saved by the queen of hearts or something. Some some cooler thing that you'll come up with. Yeah. The what the the fun of something like this is that doing it in two parts. Right?
T.C.:We see the rise of the queen and the fall of the queen, and it seemingly is reaching the end. And if anyone's sitting there going like, how's there still twenty minutes left? How's there how's there still twenty minutes left? Five minutes for credits. I'll give that.
T.C.:How's there fifteen minutes left of this movie? And then surprise, the thing we hinted at multiple times this movie just got unleashed.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:Oops. Okay. All you characters need to work together to fight this thing now. And then she does. Yeah.
T.C.:And then we we return Wonderland to what's I I was gonna say before we kinda talked over each other.
Jim:Sorry.
T.C.:That's okay. Peter Pan, all this has happened before and will happen again. Mhmm. Right? The idea of Peter Pan being this never ending cycle of of children being wished away to Neverland and then out growing the place.
T.C.:The idea that Wonderland is must must forever exist in this. However long the cycle takes, everything must come back around again. Yeah. I think that's there something fun in that, especially dealing with legacies and and prophecies and and and what do we have control over and what do we not have control over and yeah. And then, therefore, the queen is both hero and villain in this story.
T.C.:Like, we Yeah. We maintain the essence of who the of the queen as she's always been, but recontextualize it around all this extra stuff. That's the wicked treatment, baby. We did it. We get yeah.
T.C.:That's the wicked treatment there, baby. How we do there? Yeah.
Jim:How we do there?
T.C.:Okay. So did we did we do it?
Jim:I think so.
T.C.:I think we did it. Wow. Okay. I'm going to throw this to an ending now now. So Lenny, mister Leonard Courtney of Dream Spine Pictures, we need to know how we did.
T.C.:And those listening, we need to know how we did. So you gotta hit us up. What do you agree with? What do you disagree with? What did we wholly miss here?
T.C.:What did we repeat from movies we have not seen? And if if anyone wants to evoke Once Upon a Time, I've never watched the show for reasons that I discussed in the Fables episode. So go listen to that.
Jim:I they eventually did some Alice stuff.
T.C.:Well, there's a spin off series. There was Oh. Once Upon a Time had spin off
Jim:series in one of the the Mad Hatter episode, which starred Bucky Bucky Barnes.
T.C.:Oh, Sebastian Stan.
Jim:Sebastian Stan is is the Mad Hatter in Once Upon a Time.
T.C.:Yeah. We didn't even bring him up. Probably for the
Jim:I tried to. Yeah. I I he was he was gonna be one he's one of the conspirators.
T.C.:That's fine. That's just Johnny Depp is the main character of these movies in both of them. The Mad Hatter is, like
Jim:I think
T.C.:necessarily the main character.
Jim:I think the four Jacks, as I currently conceive them, they would be the white rabbit, the Cheshire cat, the Mad Hatter, and Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
T.C.:That's one. Cool. Yeah. Cool. I I I can dig I can dig that.
Jim:Those are the four major conspirators. Five. Yes.
T.C.:Okay. You can message us directly at studio demands it dot com or on Instagram at studio demands it. You can find this post specifically if you wanna comment below there. If you're not already, you can subscribe to us wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you feel like giving us a review, you can do that in app and that just helps us get out there in the algorithm.
T.C.:You can find us on YouTube and TikTok where we post video content including material not heard here on the show, Jim.
Jim:You can also join the conversation on Reddit by going to r/studio demands it on posting stuff there and going to our Discord server joining our Discord server by going to studiodemandsit.com and at the top there is a link to the server. Join that. Come on and talk to us.
T.C.:Come on and talk to us. And if you want even more, as I mentioned earlier, we have a Patreon for a couple bucks a month. You can get episodes early, commercial free, extended double length episodes, movie commentary tracks. We do some our suddenly conversations where we discuss movies after having just seen them or whatever random bit of news hits the cycle for us. Recently, a Tron Ares conversation was posted.
T.C.:You can also show us some love by subscribing for free if you wanna hear those conversations. Massive thank you to Six Five Media for everything they do for us. Next episode, David will be joining us for our annual crossover with another Zelda podcast, and we have some fun in store for our show. I know over on AZP, we will be watching finally the last episodes of the Zelda animated series. We are finally gonna be done with it.
T.C.:And, boy, have we come around on that over the years. So, Jim, you joined us last year. You get to join us again this year. So that Excuse me. Princess.
T.C.:And pay attention to, the socials. We will be doing, like, TikTok and Instagram, Patreon, everywhere we post. We are going to be putting up the poll for the finale. You can voting has is about to begin, so keep your eye out for that. You are going to help green light what our finale is going to be.
T.C.:Conversations have been had in the Reddit about, you know The Discord. The Discord. Sorry. Some some campaigning is being done, but Yep. We'll see who the the nominees might be Mhmm.
T.C.:Very, very soon. Jim and I do need to to decide that.
Jim:Finalize Finalize the ballot.
T.C.:Our ballots. And once once voting begins, go ahead, get it out there. You can campaign for stuff that isn't on there. I will remind everyone that Alien Frontier got way higher, and it wasn't even a nominee two seasons ago. So it is not impossible to see a movie arise that we didn't even think we would do.
T.C.:But Yeah. Yeah. So excited for that. This has been great. We'll we will do a whole our second to last episode, our penultimate episode will be a conversation about what the votes were like, what the comments were like, the whole season, and, of course, the announcement of what the finale will be.
T.C.:Jim, unless you have anything else. If you have Wicked or Alison Wonderland. Alison Wonderland. Her name is Alison Alison Wonderland. Wonderland.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Yeah. If you have anything to say about Alison, any now's your time.
Jim:I don't I don't think so. Okay. Aside from just trying to, like, puzzle out who's who's in what camps and and stuff like that.
T.C.:And the litany of characters we didn't even bring up that we could add in here. But
Jim:I I have this notion of us visiting the walrus and the carpenter
T.C.:Oh, yeah.
Jim:And all of the clams. Mhmm. And at a certain point, like, after after the fall, like, to show that cyclical nature, we see a dead walrus carcass Oh, okay. Laying in the in the shallows in a in a clam bed where they're they're feeding off his corpse karmic cycle.
T.C.:That's what you get. That's alright. We will be back again soon to take on one of your demands and challenge ourselves in the world of cinema. I'm TC. I am GM.
T.C.:And that is the end of Podcast. This episode, our season six mainline episodes. That's the end. That's it right here. Right here.
Jim:That one right there.
T.C.:This spot right here. Great.