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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:00)
Well, I did send you a text. I don't know if you saw it, because you don't always reply to my texts, which is totally fine. I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:05)
My phone stays on Do Not Disturb. So like, I'll
see it late. And then I'm like, it's too late to reply. And then I forget the next day.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:13)
Well, it's never too late to
reply because I don't have my phone making any noise. It doesn't vibrate or ding, which is hard when I lose my phone, but also nice because if people text me or call or something in middle of the night, I don't hear it. It's totally fine. So now you know. And I had messaged you over the weekend because I was watching The Manosphere, which is a documentary on Netflix that lot of people are talking about from Louis Thoreau. I don't know if you watched it. I'm guessing no. ⁓
Taina Brown she/hers (00:24)
Okay. Okay.
Mmmhmm.
I
haven't, but I saw the trailer for it and I saw it on Netflix.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:41)
Yeah.
My husband caught strays because I was watching it and he would come by and I'd be like, men are such assholes and like, why are you a dick? Exactly. So like, what did I do? I'm just walking in the room. I'm like, ah. Uh, and he was just like, what is the mana spear anyway, which I'm grateful because he doesn't even really know what that means. And he has no idea who the tape brothers are or any of the people in it, which is wonderful.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:44)
Why are you like this?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:04)
But I did stop a couple times to ask my son, have you ever heard of Sneeko? And he'd be like, I don't know who that is. And I'm like, thank God. Like some of the names on there, I'm thinking, are you watching any of these YouTubers? I check in on them to make sure, no. We have conversations about all of these things. So anyone listening, like I am doing my parental duties here, but just confirming that they're not sneaking their way in because honestly, that is one of my biggest fears with parenting a young white boy is this online YouTube space and the kind of like...
Taina Brown she/hers (01:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:30)
gamer to mag a pipeline and my fears of him getting sucked into this Manosphere stuff. But any time I talk to him about any of it, he's just like, that's so stupid. And I would never think that. And like, why would anyone want to listen to somebody who's racist or who's sexist? And like, you know, he knows these terms. He understands them. He anyway. But I did watch it with a lot of like disgust. But also by the end of it, I was kind of left with like just on a strictly like
Taina Brown she/hers (01:33)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:59)
⁓ quality of show place. It wasn't a really great documentary. Sorry, Louie Thoreau, but I was it was it didn't feel like it accomplished much. It didn't tell me a whole lot. It didn't shine. to me, it didn't really give me a whole lot of knowledge I wouldn't have already had. mean, I feel like his ultimate message was these people are just grifters. Some of them don't even actually believe what they say.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:02)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:24)
some of the may but they're still really just in it for the grift and yeah like that was news to me and I was sort of expecting there to be a little more depth and maybe showing me more that I wouldn't already know and the access he got wasn't all that impressive it was fine I suppose but it didn't I don't know it didn't reveal a whole lot but
Taina Brown she/hers (02:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Who
do you think the audience, the intended audience?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:48)
I think the audience was probably supposed to be people like myself who either it's to people who would they he knows would be sort of inflamed by conversations about the Manosphere. So they want to watch to sort of hate watch. then maybe also concerned parents who want to make sure that their kids don't get sucked into some of this. Like, I feel like I'm probably the ideal person. I could be wrong. Maybe maybe the audience is someone entirely different. It's not like it was made clear.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:59)
Bye
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:13)
But that would be my thought of who would want to watch a documentary about Manosphere. And then obviously, the narcissists at the center of it who want to see how they were presented.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:14)
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Well, I only ask because sometimes I have to remind myself when I'm watching something of a similar nature where if it feels too shallow for me sometimes, I'm like, maybe I'm not, maybe this is entry point for somebody. Maybe that's the goal here for people who are, you know what I mean? So.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:42)
For
sure. I don't know. I'm just thinking about that because I'm thinking like my husband didn't even know what know the term Manosphere. So I don't feel like he would have tuned into a show about Manosphere not having any understanding of what it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking just the very word would in my mind invite people who have at least some understand. Yeah, right. I don't know.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:51)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Knowledge, yeah.
Maybe the intended audience was, or could be, or part of the intended audience was moms of white male boys in MAGA families who are familiar with the term but don't really understand what's happening. And so it's kind of like, here's a not too intensive, like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:23)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:27)
way to break it down for you in a way that's going to make sense but not be off-putting.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:31)
Yeah, it could be trying to open their eyes to what their kids are actually experiencing when they're not watching them. I that may very well be it. I don't know. The best part was the one person they had. I don't even know his name, something Tiki Taki. I had never heard of him, ⁓ but he was he's a biracial man, man. And I use that term liberally, man child. He is probably in his 20s, maybe even pushing 30. I don't remember what they say his age, but he was in his, I think, his early 20s.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:35)
Mm-hmm.
You
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:00)
Um, is British, but live at the time of recording was living in Spain, trying to avoid being prosecuted because he had had some bad collision and fled the scene of the crime. He didn't hurt anyone, I don't think, but like, um, and he ended up at the end, they show that he got off. Like basically he got like a arrest or something. So he finally went back. I would think if you flee the country to avoid prosecution, you should not get off of a crime.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
yeah, that should be like an immediate, some kind of consequence.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:29)
Anyway, yeah, talks a lot about his, there's a lot
of, there's a lot of privilege, male privilege, and most importantly, class privilege. He's very, very, or presents himself as being very wealthy, appears to actually be very wealthy through the grifts that he's done. But what was most interesting is his mother, who's a white woman, they show a confrontation, I guess, with him and his dad, who's the black man, who they don't really have much of a relationship.
And that was one of the key things they showed. A lot of these men in the menace sphere come from homes where they didn't have a strong male presence. So I think that they are like some resentment there, some anger there. One way they try to sort of deal with that stuff rather than therapy, which would be the most helpful is by like overcompensating and their masculine perceived ideas of masculinity and kind of going all in in this way of like I'm hyper masculine.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:20)
And he's one of these guys who said like women shouldn't be allowed to vote and women are they should only take care of the home and all just all kinds of misogynistic bullshit. And he asked him what would your mom think about that? And he's like, I wouldn't say those things around my mom and my mom doesn't agree and I don't talk that way around her. But I believe it, whatever. And at the end he goes and his mom is there. He had arranged for his mom to be there. And just watching the way he turns into this like.
baby boy and just his mom like scolding him and having him clean the floor when they thought they weren't like it wasn't being videoed by a Louis Thoreau, but it was on like this light. And just the way he shows up around his mommy. And you just realize at the heart of all of this and the fact that one thing I think that it did help is just at the heart of all of this is a bunch of really hurt little boys.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:56)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:10)
who have lots of big feelings about their mommies and their daddies. And instead of getting therapy, which is what they should be doing, they're indoctrinating all these boys into belief systems that they don't actually live in many ways, right? As their way to kind of deal with their unresolved like trauma and stuff. Fucking get therapy, men. That's it. Just get some goddamn therapy instead of what you're doing because it's gross.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:36)
Forget the
Taina Brown she/hers (07:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:37)
grift, the grift is its own thing. But this like indoctrinating, cause they showed some of these guys, the young men that are like coming up to them and just like idolizing them. And many of them are 12 and 13. There are these boys who are just starting to explore what does masculinity mean in my life. Again, there's a great book that I talked about before. I'll grab it real quick, which is called, Why Does Patriarchy Persist?
Taina Brown she/hers (07:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:01)
It is a psychological study into the understanding of like the indoctrination into patriarchy, both for girls and boys. And with boys, there's just this key age, right? When they're starting to get flooded with testosterone around the age my son is the sort of nine to 13 ish range, right? Their puberty, where they are wondering what does it mean to be a man? And that age is so critically important in who they end up becoming as men. And these men...
Taina Brown she/hers (08:06)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:28)
are targeting them and they try to act like they're not right they're talking to older guys whatever but they are targeting these young boys and that becomes clear too and the kinds of people that are approaching them on the street and that is the shit they're selling them when that's not who they are right that's not even how they show up in the world the way this guy is with his mom and the way this other guy is with his wife
Taina Brown she/hers (08:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:49)
These, it's not even who they are and they're indoctrinating our young boys into this shit and they're using it. They're emotionally and psychologically manipulating them to become some version of themselves that they wished they could have been instead of just getting fucking therapy.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:51)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
therapy
in dealing with their issues.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:08)
Yeah, that's all I to say about Manosphere. But just, I don't know, you again, what keeps men from getting therapy? And I know the answers, but it's frustrating.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:11)
You're funny.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is frustrating the lengths that not just men, but mostly men, but because there's the toxic masculinity, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But in general, the the lengths that that people will go to to avoid therapy, they'll do anything but go to therapy. They'll like try ridiculous things. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:28)
stigmas attached for men.
I mean, the commander and chief. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:43)
but go to therapy.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:44)
Right. They project. They harm. They I it's you know, and I it's it's one of these things is where it's the messy part, I guess, which is what's appropriate here, which is I sometimes really struggle with empathy. I have very little empathy for the Andrew Tate's of the world. mean, he's a human trafficker. Right. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:04)
No, I don't have empathy. I have very little empathy for the Donald Trumps of the world. Also a human trafficker and a rapist and a horrible human who causes a great deal of harm. So there's that and this big giant and of, I also see how it happens. Do I think that it's okay? No. But I see how these people become the people they become because when you do any sort of deep dive into most of these really toxic, harmful men and I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (10:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:31)
specifically focusing on men, but I will say it's the same often with the women, just a different type of trauma, but it's usually born out of trauma in childhood. Mommy didn't love me. My dad left me, whatever. And instead of dealing with that in healthy ways, it becomes this is like those are the end results of us, of them not getting the help that they need. And there are systemic reasons that they don't get the help that they need. That doesn't, that does not.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:58)
in any way absolves somebody from their personal accountability and personal behaviors, right? So it's always tricky when we talk about these things, because people will want to jump right to the real black light. The easy like, there's no reason and fuck them. And yeah, I agree. There's no reason to fuck them and they're adults and there's accountability. And I also understand when we have systemic barriers, some of those being very real barriers, lack of access, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (11:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Like, well, you're making excuses for them or, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:23)
but also societal and cultural kinds of barriers around stigmas and belief systems, and particularly in certain cultures where it's even more egregious, that prevent or make it very challenging for people to get the help that they need to deal with things, and this is what ends up happening.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, think what happens is like, I mean, as human beings, like we all have needs that we need to get met, right? And the more power and privilege and influence you have, more magnified not just that need becomes, but the consequences of having that unmet need happens, right? Like it becomes exponentially magnified. So for...
regular, degular people like us, like when we have these needs that don't, these emotional, mental, physical needs that don't get met, the consequences may not seem that severe to someone on the outside looking in, because the only people that it really affects is like our close circle. But when you have someone who is on a world stage, like Andrew Tate or Donald Trump or people of that kind of status, and they
have so much power and influence over so many people when their needs have consistently gone unmet for so long, the effects of that ripple out in ways that bear consequences to more than just their inner circle, right? It bears consequences to all of us. And I don't think this is where things like intersectionality are important to understand.
Because these are the consequences of a lack of intersectionality, of understanding how power and privilege operate, not just at the individual level, but on a global scale. And when people think intersectionality, they think, it's just representation, or it's just regular, regular, everyday people. And yes, it is, but it is also the consequences of a lack of intersectionality on a global stage.
and how that affects the systems that we are forced to live in every day by people who fail to see the importance of intersectionality. Because as humans, we live at multiple intersections, all of us, regardless of how you identify, regardless of how much power or privilege, whether real or perceived you have, all of us live at multiple intersections every day.
When we don't get that, this is what happens.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:52)
I love regular degular. I didn't heard that. That's fantastic. And yeah, what ends up happening is the people who have the power to potentially change systems end up reinforcing the systems because those systems help them justify their behavior. Does that make sense? Like if I continue to say, if I'm Andrew Tate or any of these guys,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:54)
You
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:19)
in this manosphere world. And I have my mommy issues that are deep seated. And rather than dealing with them for all the reasons that I don't feel like I was allowed to have therapy, and so instead I stuff, I stuff, I stuff, and then I have to find another way to deal with that. And that becomes, instead of dealing with my mommy issues, I'm just going to hate women, right? And then I'm going to have other men, I'm starting to get other men to reinforce my hatred of women rather than dealing with the fact that mom hurt me. I'm going to go and hate women. So that makes me feel better because
it wasn't that mommy hurt me. It's that women are bitches. My mom's a bitch, right? So it's, yeah, it's her fault. And so I don't have to deal with that. And then I get other men involved in this because then that starts to continue to help bolster my belief system that, it was women who are bad, not me not dealing with this issue. It's women being bad. And all these other guys are agreeing. They say, yeah, so now I feel better. And then now I also say therapy makes people, who get therapy are, you know, pussies, they're weak, whatever, because.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:48)
Women are bad, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:12)
If those men were to go and get some help, they wouldn't agree with me anymore, right? And so I gotta make them also feel bad about their piece so that that doesn't even is not even a possibility in the world, right? And I just create my worldview and reinforce my worldview. And then anyone who doesn't agree with my worldview, feminists, the horrible feminists, well, they're just part of the problem too. And we see this and it just is like this.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:37)
And they have the power, like you said, the power and influence to be able to do that. And those who are trying to fight against it don't have the platforms, don't have the power, don't have the influence, don't have that following, whatever it is, they lack the structural systems and also aren't interested in engaging in typically in this simplified black and white nonsensical argument, right?
You don't want to engage in a conversation with somebody who's just coming at you with, you're a feminazi and feminists are ruining the world, blah, blah, blah. At some point, you're just like, you're off your rocker. There's nothing to be gained by me having this conversation. Right. And I get that 100%. And then that world just continues to exist in this vacuum that just keeps mushrooming. And it's scary because we see where it's at now where
Taina Brown she/hers (16:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're committed to misunderstanding me, so why talk to you?
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:26)
You know, the inevitable end of that is fascism because it's a fascistic sort of system, right? Where it's any idea that doesn't agree with me, I turn into bad. I only amplify those that do. I indoctrinate people into my belief systems. I mean, that is what fascism is. So it ends in this like we live in this fascist society and we see it spreading because YouTube is, know, and it's not just YouTube, but all of these platforms are just
Taina Brown she/hers (16:30)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:54)
Like it just keeps, it's ⁓ like a snowball that just keeps growing and growing as it rolls down the hill. And then we're sitting at the bottom of the hill going like, I can fucking see it coming. I don't, it's hard because it's like, what do do? And I know the answer is my son, his friends, right? The ways that we one-on-one are trying to create a generation of kids that can continue to fight. Fuck, it's hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:58)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:18)
You know, when my
kids friends, he's got friends that are already at nine throwing gay around as not us in their mind, not a slur, but using it in the pejorative of like, that's so gay. Right. And me having to all in and correct and them being open to listening, but they're hearing it. They're getting that, whether that's from YouTube videos or at home. Like it's all it and it's it feels really fucking draining.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, I can't imagine being a parent in this day and age. Like, I just...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:44)
I know.
And I think being a child, parent of a, and not to get into heteronormative shit, but we live in a heteronormative world. like I think being a parent of a young girl right now would honestly be more difficult in many ways. I think some of the challenges become much more acute in that the possibilities of what happens to young girls, it feels different in some ways. It just feels more like the pain, the possibilities for harm feel more.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:51)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:11)
acute and real, immediate,
Taina Brown she/hers (18:12)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:13)
where with my son, it feels more like it's about the harm that he could cause, right? It's more about harm prevention in many ways. Like, I obviously don't want him to be harmed. And there are things that I do worry about with that. It feels more like about this. It feels like this heavy responsibility of not wanting to create more Andrew Tate's. And I know that I'm not going to. There's just no way. I don't know. Shit. I don't know Andrew Tate's mom, but I would be shocked.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:39)
if his mom was like me. But maybe, right, who knows? And right, maybe he didn't have a dad. mean, I'm guessing that with all of them. I mean, when you look at when you look at Trump as an example, what we know of his childhood is his parents were not loving, that he was not raised in a loving, a home filled with warmth and nurturing and loving and care and love and care. He was raised in a competitive environment.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:43)
But maybe she is, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:05)
where everything was about external validation, proving your worth, you know? And that does not justify who he is. It may explain it, though. And I don't think that's the kind of home my child is growing up in. I don't know Andrew Tate enough to know, but I'm guessing there's something. Because with every one of these, you know, with this tiki-taki guy they were talking to, his mom seems to be very involved in his life and loves him, but he had an absentee father and a lot of challenges with that.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:08)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:34)
particularly because he was mixed race and his father, who was the person of color inside of his, you know, of his two parents left, leaving him to be raised by a white woman in a racist world and all of the stuff that that can create, not having that person there to help guide him in shared lived experience of what it means to be a person of color in this world. That creates, I'm sure there's all kinds of trauma in that, you know, and, and I'm sure Andrew Tate has his trauma.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:48)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:03)
I just wish they could deal with their trauma and even to take a down 10, not just like, not even these like most egregious examples, but all the time I see on social media men who don't have that kind of platform, just everyday dudes who, and not even on social media, in life, who have feelings about therapy, that it's like weak, it's failure, it's a waste of time, what do people think?
Taina Brown she/hers (20:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:30)
you know, the perceptions, like, I just think it's a really common thing among men, just average men, even the men outside of and who don't pay attention to the manosphere.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:31)
Hmm
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it is, as someone myself who is mixed race, I think it is a bit complicated growing up in a white supremacist world and being mixed race and not having...
You know...
have feelings about the whole father figure thing. So can we sit there for a second? Yeah. Yeah, because there's a stigma, I think, attached to a lot of Black and brown communities about whether or not there was a dad in the home and what that means for the way that children develop. that goes back all the way to, God, I forgot the name of the study.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:57)
Let's talk about Father for a years.
The Moynihan, the Moynihan.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:19)
Moynihan,
the Moynihan Report, yeah. And how, and it was used, yeah, yeah, it was used to vilify single moms, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:22)
which in the early 80s, believe, or maybe even late 70s, ugh, and continues.
I mean, we are talking 50 or almost 50 years later, and the legacy of that absolutely remains today.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:36)
Yeah,
yeah, it was used to vilify single moms. It was used to perpetuate this idea of like the welfare queen, right? And I think obviously not having a decent relationship with your father can create trauma, but you can have your dad in the home and still not have a decent relationship with him. You know what I mean? So like we see that we...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:00)
Absolutely. Yeah. And you can also be
white and not have a relationship with your dad and have trauma about that. Example A, I am that person. So that's not a, that does, but there, there's all these added layers of why it's more complicated because of, of the tropes that are out there for black women. But yes, and I know many people who have dads in the home who had shitty relationships with their dads.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:04)
Right, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, go, yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. like for, just wanna make it clear for like people who are listening and or watching that like, what we are saying is not that, it's this stereotypical single black or brown mom and that's what's causing the issue. No, because like even what's, the reality is like in those situations, like it's, and this has been studied and reported on.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:39)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:53)
like extensively that like Black and Brown communities, regardless of whether or not both parents have been in the home, have had a way of embedding themselves in their own communities to fill or to have strong male and female presence in a child's life, right? And so there are millions of children who grow up
in similar situations and don't end up like Andrew Tate or Tiki Taki or Trump, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:24)
Absolutely.
Tiki-taki.
And two moms who love a child is better than one dad who doesn't. One mom who loves a child. Right. And having two dads who love you is better than having, you know, one dad that, the no dads that do whatever. Like, I think it's about having loving parents or parent or figures. I, thank you because I...
Taina Brown she/hers (23:32)
Right, or one mom and five aunties and three uncles is better than both parents who don't.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:49)
I may not have been super clear what I meant, but I just know that there can be oftentimes some trauma that can come to biracial children who are raised by white women who have no lived experience of being a person of color in the world and are not equipped to help their children navigate that. It does not mean that the father, the Black father would necessarily be the answer. He could have been if he stuck around and was a good parent, he also could have stuck around, been a shit parent and not helped, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (23:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:15)
The responsibility on that white mom is to make sure that there are folks in that child's life, whether that's a great auntie or a great friend or whoever that is able to then help that child understand and navigate the world through the lens that they have to live the world through, right? Does that make, am I clear enough? Yeah, I just want to be sure, like, yeah, I absolutely don't think that had his dad stuck around, everything would have been great. Maybe, maybe the dad would have been reason.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah.
Maybe not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:41)
But probably not, because if he's the kind of guy who's okay to abdicate his parental duties, he's probably a shit dad anyway. And
my big issue around absentee fathers, just as a quick note, is the fact that our society gives the permission structure for men to abdicate parental responsibilities while women do not have in any way a similar permission slip, right? Men have, for men, parenthood becomes a choice in our culture, in our world, in Western culture anyway.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:58)
We don't have that, yeah, we don't have that choice. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:09)
Parenthood is.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:10)
For women, it's an identity.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:11)
And it is a it is an absolute mandate. There's no like and we want to remove choice in all the ways, right? We don't even want to give women the choice of whether they want to bring the child in the world, let alone whether they want to parent once the child is there. Men have absolute choice throughout. They can be a part of the child's life for three years, 10 years, leave and they are very mildly judged if at all. So any.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:15)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:35)
I have lots of thoughts as a child of an absentee
Taina Brown she/hers (25:35)
yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:37)
father, I have a lot of thoughts too about absentee fathers.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:39)
Yeah, yeah.
think, and I hope I'm not, I hope I'm communicating this in a way that isn't gonna offend parents, but I think a lot of times in our society, like we think of the word, right, mother, father, parent as identities, but they're roles, they're not identities, right? That's not something you're born into. And so when we're thinking about the family unit,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:00)
Yes. Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:06)
right, or what a family looks like, we assume that there needs to be a mother and a father because we equate the value that we put on that is an identity. It's not a role, but like at the end of the day, anybody can fill that role, whether they created that life or not, right? So like it's...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:21)
Absolutely. If they're given that space, then yeah, for sure. I
have a Godfather who was as much or better a father to me than any, than the man who provided the semen that created my existence, right? For sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:30)
Same.
Same.
And I
didn't even spend them. mean, when we lived in New York, I spent more time with my godparents, but I haven't lived in New York since I was 10 years old. So I barely see my godparents, barely talk to them. my godfather and my godmother, I've always been incredibly close with them. Whenever I see them, it's like, I'm eight years old again, and I just can't wait to hug them. And I'm fucking 44. And I still feel that way when I see them, right? Because of the level of relationship.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:01)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:03)
that I had with them when I was younger. I had father figures growing up and I had male presence in my life for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:08)
Yeah.
I wrote a post that I've never shared because this is such a complicated subject to talk about, but about this very thing. I talked about it started with talking about my fake dads because growing up because of not having my biological father around, having a fairly emotionally unavailable, emotionally unavailable stepfather who was also not there that long. I grew up with this idolization of the role of father because I didn't really have that.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:21)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:41)
thought it would be the most amazing thing, right? I think often what we don't have, we think would be so amazing. And so I sought it out in the place that I spent a lot of my time, which was TV and my, had my fake father. like Mr. Rogers was one of my fathers, like in truly felt like a dad. And I had like four men who the totality of these men I thought was the perfect dad. So Mr. Rogers, because he was this like, he would fulfill the like really sweet and caring and
Taina Brown she/hers (27:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:10)
kind
Taina Brown she/hers (28:10)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:11)
person. had Mr. I had the father Christopher Plumber, but specifically from Sound of Music because he was this very like stern, you know, responsible, whatever that kind of part of the dad. And then I had John Denver because my mom idolized loved worshiped him. And I was like, that's the part the like part of your dad that like is playful with your mom. And you know, see them in love. And I was like, that's that part of my dad. And then I had Michael Landon from
Taina Brown she/hers (28:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:38)
Little House on the Prairie, who just similar to Mr. Rogers in that like sweet and caring kind of way, but he felt like the kind of dad who was there to help his children navigate through life's problems and understand what to do. In my mind, these four men for all of my childhood were really deeply important to me. And as each one of them died, I really mourned their loss of like, it felt like this little piece of this dream of a dad was dying with each of their deaths. That was really.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:04)
emotional for me, most especially I think with Mr. Rogers, but with all of them. And I don't think a lot of people who have dads can understand this and maybe even people who don't have dads. However, I always thought I was the only person who lived this sort of fantasy life of dads. posted about on threads a few years ago and the flood of replies of people saying, here's my fake dad, this was my fake dad, this was my, because.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:17)
It's very common.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:27)
We have so many fatherless people in this world because of this permission structure that gives fathers the permission that makes fatherhood optional. There are so many people. And I was like, this was one of every time I reveal one of my secret shames, I'm always amazed because I'm like, ⁓ I'm not, I'm not. Yeah, I was like, my God, all these people. And so I was started writing this post about that. And the point being that the feminist perspective to me is not
Taina Brown she/hers (29:44)
⁓ it's not just me.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:53)
judging, not saying that every home should have a mom and a dad. And that's what makes a family best. Because again, I think a family with a mom who loves the child completely is far better than two parents who barely want to talk to their kid, right? The feminist critique for me, and I still haven't quite been able to figure out how to do it without insulting single moms anyway, because that's not what it's about. But it's this permission structure. It is the fact that we live in a world that gives permission.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:18)
to men to opt in and out of parenting as they choose without any similar situation for moms, right? That mothers have no such permission. And again, even to the point of we're not even allowed, there are people who don't want us to even have choice about whether we become a parent, let alone how or if we parent.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:36)
But yeah, it's really tricky to talk about for the very reason that I could feel you start to have some of that tension because certainly I understand the Moynihan Report and what that did and the long lasting consequences of judging single mothers, most especially because there is a large number of single black mothers. So when we start talking about single mothers, people automatically start to picture that. And then it becomes this critique of single black, of black mothers, black women. And that is
Taina Brown she/hers (30:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:03)
not i want to be able to critique yeah i want to critique men because fuck you men what is it that makes you think you should get to have an option on whether you parent when you are equally responsible for that child being born you know and anyway but yeah it is really
Taina Brown she/hers (31:05)
That's not it, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
cough cough cough
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I hear you about the response on threads was just indicative of so many people who felt that absence of a father figure, right? That they projected that onto these fictional characterizations, right? But I think...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:30)
Mm-hmm.
fictional. Yeah, that's it.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:42)
Not but, and I also think that's also indicative of the reality that parenting is a role and those fictional characterizations helped fill that role regardless of the sense of detachment. I think about when we're learning, like on your website, and this is something that I love that you have on your website where you say, are the people that I'm learning from.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:56)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:07)
I, when I think about the people that I learned from, right, like I have no personal relationship with Adrienne Marie Brown or Angela Davis or, ⁓ Bell Hooks or any of those people, but I still consider them mentors, right? Like we still, we apply that, that sense of, or that, that type of relationship in other ways, but we don't apply it when it comes to parenting. Like, yes, Mr. Rogers, you didn't have a personal relationship with him, but he's still.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:14)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:35)
parented you. He still parented generations of children in this country and potentially around the world depending on syndication and you know all of those things. And so I don't think that's necessarily something to be ashamed of and I don't obviously it's not the ideal situation but I think it's it's where we are as a society and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. Like there's
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:36)
He did.
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:05)
Not, let me backtrack. Not that there's nothing completely wrong with that. I think on the individual level, right? On the systemic level, that it's complicated on the systemic level, right? Let's just say that there's a lot to untangle there. On the individual level, I think how we find ways to get our needs met, we have to be creative about it, right? So whether it's coming from
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:07)
No, no, it's okay. get it. Like this is it. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:29)
a long time family friend that is an auntie or an uncle, right? Because they've been around the family so long or whether it's coming from Michael Landon from Little House on the Prairie, right? Who fits this model of what you wish your father was. Like, I think that's okay. I think that's okay. Like I...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:49)
I definitely
think it's okay. And again, I also think it's not ideal. So like it's this is the messy part, right? It's the and and the end is always so hard because I'm trying to think of a comparison that's not about this and saying like my thought comes to like if I live in a world where for all sorts of systemic reasons, I am hungry most days, that's not okay. I shouldn't be hungry most days. Now, if
Taina Brown she/hers (33:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:15)
I get creative and I'm able to make food out of the free condiments and whatever else I find. Like I can honor my ingenuity. I can honor that I had something to eat. can. Right. You know what I mean? Like so it can be the both end. It can be like I can both grieve and like I I shouldn't have to live in a world where that is the reality. And I can honor that like.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:25)
Yeah. But it's not a replacement.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:42)
Yeah, I found these other solutions and they were really lovely, but they weren't quite the substitute, right? Like, yeah, my ketchup sandwich, did the deed, like it got me some calories, whatever, but it really wasn't a substitute for like a real hoagie with roast beef and whatever that if the world were fair, I would have access to, you know what I mean? So like, I fully hear what you're saying, because I don't want to diminish Mr. Rogers' role in my life either. This shame I felt was just, it wasn't shame, it was more like,
Taina Brown she/hers (34:47)
Mm-hmm.
You
you
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:10)
these, when you have like, I've heard them called like secret solo behaviors or secret single behaviors, like things you do that you think no one else does when no one's watching. And that was kind of one of mine. It wasn't that I felt shame of looking up to Mr. Rogers and whatever. It was more like, am I the only, I think I'm the only one who thinks this way and learning you're not is helpful. But yeah, it's like, it's the both and, it's the both and, and again, going back to the beginning of this with men and therapy and all of that, it's like, I can both say,
Taina Brown she/hers (35:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:37)
Donald Trump's a piece of shit who should be held accountable for all the actions and decisions he makes as a grown ass adult. And knowing what I know about his origin story, I can understand how he got to where he is. It doesn't make it okay, it's like the both and. I can wish, I can not only wish, but I can say I should have had a loving father in my life. I think I should have had that. And that's just not the reality. And so I found it in ways
Taina Brown she/hers (35:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:03)
that did help, right? They weren't the same. Mr. Rogers was never gonna hug me. know? Exactly, it's parasocial.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, because you don't have that personal relationship, so.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:12)
And honestly, even my godfather who did hug me, it wasn't the same, it was beautiful. But then I saw him with his actual daughters that he, you know, were his children that he lived with, that he parented and guided through the world. I didn't get that relationship with him, I couldn't have.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:28)
He did what
he could for me, knowing my situation, but he wasn't married to my mom, he wasn't living in my home, he didn't have to be married to my mom, but he wasn't living in my home, he wasn't with me all the time. And there are ways to find that truth, that level of substitute, and I think that's gorgeous. I didn't have that, but that doesn't mean that that can't happen and that that isn't equally honorable, because obviously like adoptive parents, you don't have to give birth to somebody.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:48)
to give them that full parenting experience. And I know people whose grandparents raised them, whose aunts raised them, who, again, a total stranger, whoever. And they got that parental relationship. I lacked the parental relationship. And I do think that's unfair. I do think it is ideal. I don't think it's necessary. I don't think it's the only way. I don't think it's better. It's ideal in that it would have been lovely. It would have been amazing.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:49)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:17)
But also, do I think having a gorgeous manner with a chef, a personal chef and whatever, would that be ideal? Probably. But is it necessarily better than a cozy home filled with love and the things I actually need in life? No, I don't know that it's actually better. You know I mean? Because I think better and ideal, ideal might sound like I'm saying it's better. I'm not saying it's necessarily better. Does that make sense? Okay, good. Because I feel like I'm, because it's not a judgment.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:45)
thing of because my mom was a single mom and she crushed it. You know, she crushed it with what she could do, the capacity she had, you know, her was at the time all of those things like she crushed it. That doesn't so it's not saying she it was bad and it could have been better if she had just, whatever. But it doesn't give my dad's permission to have abandoned me.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:09)
See how
that why I've never published a post about this. It's murky. It's hard to talk about this stuff without your personal story feeling like a judgment on others stories.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:13)
It is, it is, yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Can I change topics real quick before we wrap up? ⁓ I watched The Bride last night.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:21)
Sure, let's finish up with something else.
I want to know because okay, so you talked about this before Maggie Gyllenhaal directed, Jessie Buckley starred. I've heard mixed reviews. Give me yours.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:32)
Mm-hmm.
⁓ I definitely have feelings about it. It was very well done. It was in yes, I'm in the theater. It was incredibly well done. Production value. What production value acting like, Jesse Buckley was phenomenal. Like she's just having a year or a couple of years. Like me, me either, me either. And now she's just like everywhere.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:38)
You saw it in the theater?
But well done, what does that mean in your mind?
I tell you, I had never even heard of her six months ago. I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:58)
Christian Bale obviously did an amazing job. He's just a phenomenal actor. He plays Frankenstein's monster. And so he has stitches just all over his face. So he doesn't have expressions throughout most of the movie. So acting without being able to have facial expressions is really difficult. It's a lot of eye acting.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:19)
I would be, I mean, just asking Nicole Kidman.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:21)
Yeah, it's a lot of eye acting, it's a lot of body acting, you know, and so, and so he obviously did really well. It was very good, except for me. There's a way in which the story is told, and I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't seen it, but it starts with the very first scene. It's a black and white scene.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:41)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:42)
And when it switches, it switches back and forth, not a lot, but throughout the movie several times it switches back and forth between the main story and this other story that's kind of driving the main story forward. And that felt a little too on the nose for me. Like it felt like...
It felt like they didn't trust the audience enough to put it together. And I was just like, ugh, I could have done without that. I could have done, like could have put it together.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:10)
of like everyone's
favorite speech in Barbie where I'm like, it was a little too on the nose, right for me exactly where you're like, right, I don't need you to exactly. Yeah. Because you were saying that you were hoping this would be sort of a feminist take on the story and like, did it? It is okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:15)
Yes, yes, like we live this, we know. I don't need you to explain it to me. Yeah, but I...
And it is, and it is,
it is. It definitely is. All the men are awful. Completely awful. Like even the men that love her, right? Even the men that love her, right? Which there's actually two men in the film that love her. There's Frankenstein and then there's another character that you find out that they have like some backstory from when she was alive. And so...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:33)
Yeah, which after everything we've talked about here seems good.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:54)
So even the men that love her are awful men. Like they're not heroes. I do love the way that, I will say I understand why they went with something that was so on the nose because I feel like...
For some audience members, I don't feel like they would get it. Particularly men who are watching the movie, right? Like they might need that further explanation.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:18)
I don't care. I don't know. This is the thing about art. When you go. When you go to a museum and you look at art. You are supposed to. It's meaning making. You're supposed to make your own meaning. And honestly, even what the artist intended shouldn't matter. It's supposed to be what does it mean to you? How do you interpret it through your lens? What does it evoke in you? Like even the little placards they have that will explain it.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:20)
No
It's not for everybody.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:45)
It's a little frustrating because it's like, doesn't matter what the artist thought it was or meant it was, right? And if it doesn't mean anything to you, then it's not for you. And walk to the next installation and see if that is. And I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:55)
See,
I get that, but I also want to know what the artist meant.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:01)
Okay. I guess my thought is, okay, I think that you can find that out. You go and then you say, I wonder whether you meant by this. And then you go and you do some research on your own, whatever. I just don't think the artist should be the one who has to, with their art, have something that says, okay, so, hey dummy, here's what it meant. This is what I was thinking. is blah, blah, blah, blah. Telling you what to feel.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:02)
haha
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:25)
I, and I don't mean you're a dummy. I just mean like for the men watching this, whatever, for the people who don't immediately get something about it. I shouldn't have said dummy. I feel like I'm bad because that felt really derogatory. And it's not what I meant at all. Not the look I'm having, the pop-up of like, what did I say? But I think the artist should present their work as what it is.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:27)
Nyeh!
Yeah, yeah.
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:43)
and you
should experience it as what it is. And then after you've done that, like through your lens, you feel it the way you feel it. You receive it how it feels in your body. And then I think you can go and have a conversation, a conversation with other people who've experienced, even if the artist has had conversations and you want to read those, I think that's great. But I think the presentation of the art should be its own experience that is about what does this do for you?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:09)
What are you experiencing here? What is coming up for you? What is your interpretation? And then I think in the same way as you read a book, I don't think we often, like even if you have a book club, you're not usually saying, let's read this book out loud together. And as we read each sentence, explore what it meant. We read the book, we sit with it, we ingest it, we think, what did it mean to me? What did I think? What are the questions I'm walking away with? And then we go and have those discussions with other people or maybe even with the author in a book, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (43:36)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:37)
That me feels different than the author being like, I'm going to read the book to you and after every sentence I'm going to explain what I was thinking. Do know what I mean? Like, I don't know if I'm being clear.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:44)
I I
get it. don't experience art that way. The way I experience art is when I'm looking at a piece of art, whether it's cinema or a painting or a book, I need to know what the artist's intention is. Because when I'm experiencing it, I feel like I'm having a conversation with the artist. And then that...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:48)
Taina, that's what's hilarious!
Mmm.
interesting because I
Taina Brown she/hers (44:08)
And then that conversation expands out eventually into like other people that I can actually talk to.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:14)
I just think it's so interesting to me because our discussions around one battle after another and centers, neither of us have talked ever to Pete, Paul Thomas Anderson or Ryan Coogler. We don't have any interaction with them. We may have read interviews with them. I've never read actually any interviews with Paul Thomas Anderson about that movie because honestly, I guess ultimately how that movie lived in my body and how I experienced it matters more to me than any justification he has for what his vision was for me.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not
saying the intention matters more to me. That's not what I'm saying at all.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:44)
Okay. I just feel like, I feel
like our experiences of talking about those, I would have thought that you would have been like, what matters is how it, how I feel, what I receive and what I feel about it. So it's just interesting for me to hear you sort of like, want to know their intention because I'm just thinking specifically of one battle after another where it's like, but maybe you're saying with art that you're compelled by or interested in, really.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:07)
No, I think with all art, because
even with one battle after another in centers, the intention behind it helps me contextualize what I'm looking at, what I'm experiencing. Whether or not I agree with it, whether or not I like it, it helps me.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:23)
Did you look up
Paul Thomas Anderson? And I don't mean this in a gotcha moment at all, because I am genuinely curious if you looked up what his, any, you heard anything from him about his intentions or were you sort of inferring them based on what was presented? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:27)
Mm-hmm.
I was inferring them.
when I'm talking about the bride right now, this is all inferred information. This isn't me actually looking up Maggie Gyllenhaal's intention. Whenever I'm experiencing anything, any kind of art, I'm inferring what the intentions might be. Unless, like you said, there's the little placards when you're in a museum or something like that that kind of tell you a little bit of the context or the history of the painting. But when it comes to film,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:05)
I'm usually in furry. The question in my mind is always, what could the intention be here?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (46:13)
Yeah, I you asked me that about Manosphere right off the bat, going back to the very beginning of this conversation, so, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:15)
Yeah, yeah, like what could the potential intention be
here, right? Because then that opens up possibilities for questions that exist outside of myself.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (46:25)
See, Taina, I think you're doing what I was saying, even though you're because that is part of it to me is if I'm looking at the art, I yes, how I receive it. But also I may be investigating my own mind. What what the hell were they doing with this or what were they thinking when they made this? But I do. And listen, I read the placards at the fucking museum, so I am the dummy. I'm still sitting with myself, judging myself for using that, because it's not what I shouldn't have said. was what I meant.
And I am the dummy who reads the placards too because I am also often like, I don't fucking understand what I'm looking at here. What in the world is this? Because I am not an art connoisseur. I'm not that person. However, at the heart of what I think art and creativity is, there is that, like I do hold that belief that ultimately what the person intended doesn't fully matter because it's how it's received. I guess it goes to that impact versus intention, which exists in all sorts of ways.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:59)
First thing, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (47:17)
And I do think of art as being one of those. I do think we can try to understand intention or guess about intention or think about intention for that context. Because again, kind of going to the end of things of like, it may not matter what Trump's background is or the context that has informed how he has become because the impact is all that matters. However, the end is I can also be curious about and try to understand some of that context to
Taina Brown she/hers (47:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (47:45)
draw to follow the dots a bit, right? I guess the same can apply to art. And I read the placards because sometimes I can't figure it out and I'm not brain. I feel like often art makes me feel stupid. It's probably why I said dummy, because I often feel stupid where I'm like, hmm, I don't get this. I feel like everyone else does and I don't understand. So I do want to understand what the artist says about what it is. then sometimes I'm like, now I see it. Right. ⁓ But I do believe, like, I guess for me, books is where I get it the most, where I'm like,
Taina Brown she/hers (48:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (48:12)
I just want to read the book. And then after I've read the book and I've sat with it and I've thought about it, I often will go and research an author, research what they say about it. But I do feel like that initial interaction with the text should be, it feels like it needs to be a personal experience first.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:28)
Yeah, well, I think books are a bit different because they're literally telling you, right? They're using literal words to express a message, which is easier to interpret than cinema or like a painting or an illustration, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (48:29)
Maybe they are.
than a movie.
Which is why
we end up with the Barbie speech or whatever it is you're talking about in Bride where you feel like they're spoon feeding it to you. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:46)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. But
I think also kind of, I think for me also separating or taking the time to separate the intention from the impact when it comes to art feels a bit too individualistic for me. And so, that, I think that makes me a bit uncomfortable because it's like, it's...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (49:08)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:15)
art, good art, right, or the objective of art, right, is to inspire conversations, right, it's to inspire discussion, but also to reflect what interests, to reflect an intention, right, to reflect an incident, to reflect an age, to reflect what's happening out in the world. And so you can't have, I don't feel like you can have,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (49:24)
Yeah. Introspection. ⁓ guys. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:42)
a good introspection or reflection on a piece of art without understanding what it is trying to reflect. so that divorcing those two things feels a little too detached for me.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (49:50)
Yeah. I guess.
No, I get
it. guess my, I think where we agree is I don't think it has to be necessarily given to you by the artist, the creator. I think you can, that can be in part of your own reflection is what did they intend? Because again, in the example of Paul Thomas Anderson in one battle after another, I think most people have an idea of what he was, what the intention was, right? I think then the critique becomes, did it fail?
Taina Brown she/hers (50:02)
Yeah.
no, no, no.
Yeah, yeah.
Trying to say it, yeah. Yeah.
Did he say it? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (50:26)
Yeah,
exactly. Did it fail in that? And was he the right person to be doing that, to make that message? Or was he the person to deliver that art in that way? ⁓ Yeah, interesting, interesting. Well, I probably won't. As I said, I probably won't see the bride. I said it before. Your review has not necessarily made me want to see it either.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:29)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, but the bride, the bride.
Yeah,
it was good. will say it was like the first 10, 15 minutes I was like, God. But then it got good. It did get good and I was happy that I saw it. And I wasn't really sure what to expect. Because I'm like, is this going to be a horror movie? It's not.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (50:54)
Okay, so I just get if I just get past that? Okay.
Is it?
Then maybe I'll watch it on a streamer when it comes out that way. I don't go to theaters very often. My kid's at the theater right now seeing, I don't know, some animated movie.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does a
really good job of expressing the inner and outer world of women, right? yeah, like this, the tension between...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (51:24)
Well, I like that. That appeals to me.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:28)
how women are expected to behave and perform and what happens when those expectations go unmet because of too much rage, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (51:43)
Well, now that's a very good review, Tyena. That has me appealed. Like, that's appealing.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:47)
Yeah.
And then when that rage does get expressed, then it's like, well, how far is too far to express that rage and the morality of like that women have to deal with. Like if I do express my rage in the way that I want to, how far am I willing to go? And at what point do I start to feel guilty about it?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (52:08)
So is the spoon feeding for men part basically explaining that in ways that they would understand because they can't understand that? Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. But it's frustrating in the same way that Barbie speech like frustrated me because I'm like, if it took a woman hearing that speech to get it, then they they don't get it.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:16)
I think so.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
then they don't get it, yeah, yeah. But even the spoon feeding part was done really well, like production value, like, you know, like it was still, the whole thing was just done really, really well. ⁓ It was just, yeah, it was good, it was good. I would recommend four out of five stars. ⁓ Eight out of 10 would recommend.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (52:33)
Okay.
then I will watch it when it comes out on a streamer. Okay. Four out of five's not bad.
Okay, my review while I was sitting here, my son sent a review, said 10 out of 10 would recommend Hoppers if you're into animated and you have a nine year old kid, 10 out of 10. I'm not going to see it. However, he said he would watch it again, which means I will get to see it. Yay. That's what kids do. They watch the same movie 12 times and then you.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:07)
Good, good, good, good, good, good. Yeah, yeah.
And I think even if you don't fully enjoy it or even fully invested in it, I think it's always important to watch things or engage in things made by women. yeah. Yeah, those numbers count.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (53:20)
for sure. For sure, because there's not enough of that. Sure.
I had a sneaking suspicion since it was released after the new year at this time of year. Things that get really sort of now to may are usually movies that maybe at one time they thought might have Oscar potential and realized it didn't. And so a lot of times I'm like, ⁓ those are going to be the movies that were supposed to be amazing. And then for whatever reason, just didn't quite work.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:38)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (53:45)
And I'm not saying that's necessarily the case with this movie, you'll notice that very often they're like February, March, April kind of releases, especially like the end year kind of.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:47)
Yeah.
They're,
yeah, they're,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (53:55)
There's a track record there. And so I get nervous oftentimes when I see a movie like that that comes out this time of year, because I'm like, oh, that was probably supposed to be really great. And then it just didn't quite work, which sounds like, you know, it's probably true. Like it could have had the potential to possibly be an Oscar-y kind of movie and just fell a little short. But that doesn't mean that it's bad, right? So I will watch it at some point on a streamer. So just like with Sinners, I'll watch it eight months after everyone else and then have something to say. No one will care at that point.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it also, does
a really good job of also just like, don't, sometimes it's hard to tell what's real and what's not, like what's actually happening and what's not in the story. And I think a lot of women feel that way in general.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (54:34)
And now see, I wish I had seen it just so we could have that conversation. All right, well, thank you. I'm sorry I said dummy. I didn't mean you and I know you know that, but also it was judgy and gross and I shouldn't have said it because that's not what I really meant. I just meant like, hey, for a person who feels like they don't get this and I'm speaking, it was a projection because that's how I feel when I look at the placard is I feel like I'm like, okay, I'm the dummy who has to read the placard because I don't get this art. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:36)
Yeah.
I know.
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (54:59)
just sharing that for anyone who felt offended, like I recognize that that was inappropriate. And it was really just projection, which is often the case when people are saying something that's inappropriate. just a moment of learning. All right, good to talk to you.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:01)
Yeah
That's true. That's very true.