Max Traylor [00:00:00]:
Everyone thought, oh, you can. Price based on value. Value based pricing. Value based pricing breaks down if you're replaceable.
Nick Bennett [00:00:14]:
Hey, it's Nick and welcome to 1,000 Routes, the podcast where I explore the stories of solopreneurs who have made the bet on themselves to build a business that serves their life. Every episode you'll hear all about the lessons they've learned and the uncommon routes they've taken to stand out in a world that is purposefully trying to commoditize them. Hey listener, welcome back to the show. This week, Max trailer is back for what is probably the most unhinged episode yet. Now, this one's a little different from our normal format, but we picked things up right where we left off last time he was on the show. We go all over the place and I know you're going to love it. Also, I want to let you know that I've recently teamed up with my friend Erica Schneider to create a new resource for solopreneurs who want to niche down their business, create an offer ladder, and build a body of work they're proud of. It's a hybrid digital program that combines the flexibility of a self paced course with the hands-on nature of a private consulting service.
Nick Bennett [00:01:11]:
It's called the full stack solopreneur. It's launching in October and we cannot wait to share this with you. You can register your interest@fullstacksolo.com. hope to see you there. Yeah, talk to me about, you were the agency guy, you became the consultant's consultant, and now you're back.
Max Traylor [00:01:28]:
So firm belief. I can help people get more logos. I have to. That's how I survive. I know how to do that. But I really believe that the bigger opportunity is to grow existing accounts. My dad always told me that the second check is easier than the first. So for the last ten years, I've been like, service design.
Max Traylor [00:01:49]:
If you can build a badass consulting service, you're going to get access to the leadership team, you're going to get deeper relationships. It's going to lead to upsell retention and all this stuff. And you know what was for six years, the most frustrating thing in the world? Nobody cares. And you know why nobody cares? Because it's not sexy. And I was thinking about this the other day. My wife and I have a great relationship, but at one point she was like, maybe we should do some couples therapy. And I really like Madden. And I was like, why am I mad? That's like that.
Max Traylor [00:02:23]:
She's just trying to smooth things over. Like, we just had two kids. Like, things were crazy. And I was like, oh, I'm proud. I have an ego. And to admit that I need couples therapy or help in my relationship means that I am somewhat a failure. And I realize that's exactly what I'm asking agency owners to do. I'm asking them to admit to themselves that they are not being the best version of a service provider to their clients, asking them to admit that they need relationship counseling, whereas any agency owner in the world would be like, yeah, man, we suck at getting new business.
Max Traylor [00:02:59]:
We absolutely need help with that. That's not like an admittance of failure. That's just like, everybody needs that for good or for bad. I've chosen this thing that requires big boys and girls to put their ego aside and say, yeah, maybe there's more opportunity to grow existing accounts then new accounts. And for six years, nobody wanted to hear it. I got frustrated during COVID the world was like, hey, there's thousands of new independent consultants that need what you do. Yellow book came out. Loved that.
Max Traylor [00:03:28]:
That's how we met. We were rapping about that kind of stuff. And then over the last year, I've seen AI finally put the nail in the coffin for agencies of, like, they can't just do what they were doing before. And more than ever, I started because I always go back every quarter. I'm like, oh, what are you thinking about in Q four changing in Q five? And they're like, we need to redesign our services. And I was just like, say it ain't so. What are you trying to do? They're like, we're trying to be more strategic. I'm like, why is that? Because we're selling commoditized dog shit and we can't make money on it.
Max Traylor [00:04:08]:
And AI took our jobs. And I'm like, read my book from five years ago. It reinvigorated me. I was excited. I am excited. And, yeah, I'm helping them redesign their services.
Nick Bennett [00:04:22]:
It's got to be validating. I saw this three years ago. I saw the writing on the wall around three years ago, myself, just being in the house, looking around, went out on my own. That was the thesis of my own launch of this business. And I was like, yeah, everyone kind of looks exactly the same and does the same thing. And then ChatGPT happened, and it was like, everyone's like, oh, we'll be so much faster now. And I was like, no. I mean, yeah, maybe, but also, no, like, no one's gonna care.
Nick Bennett [00:04:55]:
Like, you'll be faster at doing the thing that nobody wants.
Max Traylor [00:04:59]:
Yeah, well, it, you know, I've always, look, if you're replaceable, everyone thought, oh, you can price based on value. Value based pricing. Value based pricing breaks down if you're replaceable. And the thing about technology is, I think it's technology versus experience, because technology can level the playing field in an instant. Everyone's got access to AI. You can't be, you know, those firms that like, it's been like six months, right? And you've seen firms be like, we're AI empowered content. And they just go. Because it's like, now everyone's got.
Max Traylor [00:05:35]:
What do you mean? Of course. Yeah, that's like a, that's like an app. Your entire business is an app.
Nick Bennett [00:05:41]:
It's $20 a month.
Max Traylor [00:05:43]:
Yeah, it's $20 a month, dude. Opus clip. Like, I used to pay people 1500 bucks to do their thing on these podcast things. But, you know, you've got to rally around your expertise. You got to hire if you're going to hire people, if you're going to, like, my dad would always say, you're going to invest in something that eats while you sleep. That's people. They get paid no matter what. If you're going to invest in people that eat while you sleep, invest in people that can't be replaced.
Max Traylor [00:06:14]:
People with 20 years experience in the industry. You're trying to sell into people that can go into a leadership room and control the space. Not a starter home, not somebody that needs a new roof and siding, not somebody that needs training on how to talk to leadership.
Nick Bennett [00:06:32]:
All right, let's zoom out a sec here. This shift, you're like, okay, the market is finally ready. Timing is everything. With a lot of these things, the market's finally ready. Let's reignite the agency flame. Spend more time with them instead of solo consultants. Makes a lot of sense. First thing I think about is there's a lot of people trying to get to agencies right now.
Nick Bennett [00:07:00]:
There's a lot of people doing it.
Max Traylor [00:07:02]:
A lot more than before. Yeah, that's for sure.
Nick Bennett [00:07:05]:
There's a lot more. Especially before, when you were telling people to do this work five years ago, there was really very few people doing it. Now there's like one on every corner. How are you choosing to build this thing in a way that doesn't compete? Like, what you do, I believe, is categorically different than what. Maybe it's under the same, like, line of business, which is like, you help agencies, but I think what you do is probably categorically different from some other people.
Max Traylor [00:07:29]:
Go look it up, find somebody else that is solely focused on helping agencies grow their existing accounts.
Nick Bennett [00:07:35]:
See, that's a niche down. That is.
Max Traylor [00:07:38]:
I haven't heard. It's a crazy person because for the last ten years, nobody wanted to talk about that. Literally the exact of all the things you could invest in. This is the thing that nobody wanted, the thing that was psychologically difficult to get people to admit that, like, oh, blah, blah, blah. Mathematically, I can show it. For an agency that has five account managers, if you can help them improve by 10% on retention and upsell, it's going to blow any salesperson out of the water. You could make your salesperson walk on water and it's still not going to impact profitability and revenue. Like 10% increase or decrease, whatever you want to call it, in retention and upsell, it's just not.
Nick Bennett [00:08:16]:
It's like a foregone conclusion for every business on the planet that it costs more to get a new customer than it does to.
Max Traylor [00:08:22]:
Yeah, but it's also healthier to go to the gym and eat correctly. And we don't do that because we're human beings. It's not sexy. We want cocaine and booze. That's what we want. That's what new logos represent in the agency world. That's what people want to buy. And I've been taking my lumps for ten years, so how do I play nicely with other agency consultants like yourself? Have the new logos, have the branding, have all the stuff that.
Max Traylor [00:08:47]:
But it's hot and sexy and awesome and I love to do it, I do love to do it, but I just want to stay in my lane and I'm willing to take my lumps.
Nick Bennett [00:08:56]:
This is a fantastic niche now, this, like, way of thinking, you're, like, cool. Like, anyone who's out here trying to help you get new logos, let them. Like, that's a different thing. Like, and honestly, my business, I. The vast majority of my business is not agencies anymore. I've decided I didn't really. I don't really like working with agencies. It wasn't nearly as fulfilling as some of the other things, any other people that I'm working with, which is cool, like, great, whatever, but, like, the fact that you're, like, I grow existing accounts, the ability to just.
Nick Bennett [00:09:26]:
If you want something different, it's not a comparison, it's a choice. Like, there's. It's either you're going to get something else or you're going to get this.
Max Traylor [00:09:33]:
Yeah, and because I've chosen to do that, there's a whole bunch of people that I know are great at helping agencies get new logos and if that's what they want, and I agree, that's strategically great. Yeah, you're in that position. Let me introduce you to somebody.
Nick Bennett [00:09:49]:
Yeah. You're great with the relationship. Flywheel, dude.
Max Traylor [00:09:52]:
Well, yeah. And you know what? What happens when you introduce someone, you know, an ideal client to somebody and they close the deal? Like, you're gonna get referrals. You're gonna get referrals. And those are gold. So that's my answer. I think it's fair.
Nick Bennett [00:10:06]:
I like that you're building in the direction. Like, you've teamed up with the Kaiser reveal and doing the near bound stuff you've teamed up with, like, you're doing stuff with Pete Caputa, who's big in the agency space, although data boxes. Like, they're building up their agency partner program and stuff like that. Like, you spend more time building relationships than probably anyone I know on purpose. The conventional wisdom is, like, referrals will come when they come, and you just kind of sit there refreshing your inbox, whereas you can go out and be super intentional about building relationships. Like, the number one thing that I've heard doing 25 episodes of this show is every single person is like, the relationships are the most important part of this business. Everyone's sight is set on inbound. They're like, how hard can you market until you get inbound leads coming in?
Max Traylor [00:10:58]:
People got referrals all wrong. Let's say I agree with you that referrals are the number one source of business. I don't because people have a messed up definition of referrals, but let's say for a second I agree. Referrals are the number one source of business. So most people are out there with a bucket waiting for raindrops.
Nick Bennett [00:11:19]:
I already like this. Enjoy this analogy.
Max Traylor [00:11:21]:
They're out there waiting for rain. Oh, well, how do you survive? Well, it eventually rains, and we drink the water and we survive. But humanity developed with agriculture and wells, and you realize that you can dig a well and you have water, like, forever because there's water in the frickin ground, and then you can irrigate things so people don't build a referral pipeline. And for me, I want to work with agencies. This is applicable to anybody. This is applicable to agencies. This is applicable to anybody that knows and has selected an ICP. Let me tell you right now, the people that have bigger marketing budgets than you are, software companies, they have the cash.
Max Traylor [00:12:06]:
They have the cash. And you go to a software company, like a data box or a reveal or a HubSpot pick, their partner program is sitting on not just email addresses, thousands of phone numbers and people that have real relationships with those agencies that you could tap into build your pipeline. And you don't get one referral every quarter and you have to go, oh, Nick, let's spend 30 minutes and maybe you could introduce me to somebody that you know. No, let's figure out how I can add value to Nick. Let's say you have a software company. Let's figure out how I can add value to the partner program. Let's figure out how every single time one of your agency partners needs help. I'm the face.
Max Traylor [00:12:52]:
I'm the guy, I'm the introduction. I'm the standing webinar that's there once a month. Five years ago, I figured that out by accident because I was like, oh, yeah, I'll just do a workshop every month for your agency partners. And it was an unlimited supply of ideal clients who are actually working on what I help with. Because why attend the workshop if you're not working on that? So I think on our last call, I did talk about this trend. I don't think the trend has changed. People don't care about content. They don't trust it because of Aih.
Max Traylor [00:13:27]:
They care about and trust people they trust. So whether it's near bound or ecosystem led growth or fill in your buzzword, go find people that already have the trust, people that have already dug the well and build a pipe from their well to your bucket instead of just sitting around going, oh, we get all these referrals, it's going to be great because I tell you, the economy is going to hit, we're going to get some crazy new president or something's going to happen politically, and it ain't going to rain.
Nick Bennett [00:13:58]:
Eventually it'll rain, but it might be.
Max Traylor [00:14:00]:
Dry for, and that's why people will continue to rely on it because you'll survive.
Nick Bennett [00:14:06]:
Yeah, but it's a miserable existence. When I was selling into agencies primarily, the biggest thing that people told me was, if something doesn't happen soon, if it doesn't rain, like, I will have a lot of hard decisions to make in like the next 30 days. You're talking about people's livelihoods and that sucks a lot.
Max Traylor [00:14:26]:
Yeah. And they're going, they're sacrificing cattle. They used to sacrifice human beings because they thought that would make it rain. Faith drives people crazy. You need to be able to hunt and kill for yourself. There's animals out there, grab your bow, grab your arrow, your gun, whatever, go out there and hunt and kill for yourself. And agencies don't do that because they got fat and happy on referrals.
Nick Bennett [00:14:50]:
And I don't even know if they got fat, but they got fat. And it was like, just enough.
Max Traylor [00:14:56]:
There's the title of this episode, there's the one liner. They didn't get fat, but they got fed.
Nick Bennett [00:15:03]:
It was just enough. But I don't know, man. I think the way that you approach building relationships is, like, unique compared to everyone else that I know, because you make it a point to, when you have events, you message me, and it's probably a canned message that you send to a lot of people, but, like, you make it intentional to send it to me and you tell me why you think I should attend said event.
Max Traylor [00:15:30]:
I'll be totally transparent with you. 75% of that message is me copying and pasting. I actually sent. This is insane. In the day, in the age of automation, and there are tools that can do this, I actually click on Nick Bennett at 07:00 in the morning when it's quiet, my kids haven't gotten up yet, and I get my coffee, and I click on Nick Bennett, and I copy and paste the, hey, I think you'd love this event. But you know what I do? I write a couple sentences for Nick Bennett.
Nick Bennett [00:16:01]:
I know.
Max Traylor [00:16:02]:
And you know what you do? You look at that and you go, this looks frickin weird. Not sure this is Max, but it could be Max.
Nick Bennett [00:16:09]:
I'm like, it. It's mostly Max.
Max Traylor [00:16:11]:
It is somewhat Max, but I am actually there. I am actually pressing the button. I do that about 57 times. And then I send a video to my assistant and I say, I can't take this anymore. Please do the next 150.
Nick Bennett [00:16:26]:
But there's an important thing here, which is, like, real human stuff. Like, the whole be a human thing is something that I have to reinforce to a lot of people because they're like, do I just like, go on Apollo and get a list? And I'm like, no, you don't need to do that. Like, all you need to do is just be human. I was like, I'll give you an example. This has closed me more clients and helped me build my business, probably more than any tactic. And I'm gonna give it to you right now. When someone shows up on your I LinkedIn posts a lot. They, like, maybe they don't comment, whatever.
Nick Bennett [00:16:59]:
Even if they do comment or they sign up for your ebook, whatever the thing you have, screw it all.
Max Traylor [00:17:05]:
One up you. What about people that are looking at your profile?
Nick Bennett [00:17:07]:
People who look at your profile? I don't do it for people who do with the profile. I don't do this particular thing to the profile, but I'll tell you what it is. I send them a message and I say, hey, thanks for checking out my download. Like, I have a email course. Like, thanks for checking out the mini course. I really appreciate you supporting my work. Means a lot to me. Just want to say hey and say hi and let you know, like, it means a lot.
Nick Bennett [00:17:33]:
So thanks. Someone. People respond to that 99% of the time and if they don't respond, you just made a deposit into the bank of goodwill and eventually they'll message you and realize they never responded to your very kind message and they're going to feel like an asshole. But when you, I was gonna say.
Max Traylor [00:17:48]:
You made a deposit into the people that are clearly dicks. It's just great.
Nick Bennett [00:17:54]:
You'd be surprised how many people messaged me like months later and ask a question and they're like, oh, shit, sorry, dude, I never responded to that.
Max Traylor [00:18:01]:
That's how you know you're doing it, right? That was the weirdest thing that happened to me. They were just like, dude, I'm so sorry. I've been really busy. I just got your message. I'm like, my research team sent that to you. This is weird.
Nick Bennett [00:18:12]:
Yeah, but when you send that people, someone sent me a message back the other day and she was like, it's, she's like, thank you for making me feel seen. Like I'm not just like a name on your email list.
Max Traylor [00:18:22]:
And I was like, are you saying you do it personally or is it automated?
Nick Bennett [00:18:26]:
Oh, it's not, it's not automated. It's just, it doesn't need to scale. I don't need a thousand clients.
Max Traylor [00:18:30]:
It doesn't need to scale. I got, I got under 7000 followers. There's one half hour block, I think, on Tuesday. I do it where I look at the people that have been looking at my profile. I do it for people that connect with me. I do it for people that like, and it's called operation get the likers. But I do the same thing. I get a download.
Nick Bennett [00:18:50]:
It makes it makes it even easier if they look at things.
Max Traylor [00:18:53]:
It's like being in a bar. So if you kept somebody staring at you, I'm gonna say, what's up? What are you, nice hat. What's going on? But that's all it takes. And you can't, you can't do that with automation, it doesn't make the same thing. You're gonna accidentally see somebody that's like. Because you're actually looking at these people, you're gonna accidentally see like, oh, my God, I saw the post that you're excited about this new thing that you're. This new offer that you're launching. That's what I do.
Max Traylor [00:19:16]:
I'd love to send you my book. And then they're like, oh, my God, we're working on that right now. So, like, on the off chance that you stumble across some information that's on LinkedIn, that makes it the perfect time, the perfect person. Like, if you're not in there looking at these people and actually sending these messages, even if it's 75% copy and paste, you're doing it wrong. I think automation is the biggest crime to human. To human relationship development.
Nick Bennett [00:19:46]:
Because we're not a tech company, though. We don't need all the customers. I need like, ten people ever, like a year.
Max Traylor [00:19:54]:
And I get one out of five. Cold outreach to conversation. If I actually write the messages myself, sometimes, I'll do this. I'll take a full hour. This is how I come up with what I would actually say for my assistant. I'll spend a full hour. Zero templates, zero copy and paste, and I'll literally write messages to people that are liking looking at my profile for an hour. Then I do that on Tuesdays.
Max Traylor [00:20:17]:
My assistant comes in, looks at all my messages and the ones that replied on Thursdays, and will mimic the ones that worked, like, in my personality, all that sort of stuff. But I'll choose something specific. I'll do it for pr agencies between ten and 20 people. So it's like, so in just one week, I'll just choose something at random. I'll just choose, like, a little micro.
Nick Bennett [00:20:36]:
Like, here's a really good one. All right, here, this is. This is how I get people over the edge. This is. I think this will be a nice tip. There's a plugin for your website called warmly. It's like a free tank. And when you go to my website, I get a slack message.
Nick Bennett [00:20:51]:
It's like, max trailer's on your website. And so now I was just thinking about you. It happens, but it's like, it's not hard when you get that slack to just shoot someone a DM. It's like, thanks so much for checking out my content support, my work, it really means a lot. And they're like, whoa. So crazy. I was just like. I was just looking at your stuff.
Nick Bennett [00:21:12]:
You're like, oh, wow.
Max Traylor [00:21:13]:
There was one point where people would be freaked out, but now it's like, I want what you have. See what you're doing here. That was cool.
Nick Bennett [00:21:23]:
Yeah. I think the main thing that I'm, like, super obsessed with right now is like, do human shit. Be a human person. Do things. Like, so many people are like, here's this cold email I wrote. What do you think? I'm like, throw it in the trash. You would never respond to that. You would never even open that email.
Nick Bennett [00:21:39]:
You would not like, why are you sending? Why are you creating things that you hate?
Max Traylor [00:21:44]:
Yeah. So here's the hack that I would always do with people. Like, when I first met you, I was doing the. I had like 27 people in my all Max has passed because I got to be punny. And they'd be like, okay, we're going to create messaging. We're going to create outreach messages. I'd pick somebody. I'd go, pull up your LinkedIn profile, find me an ideal client.
Max Traylor [00:22:05]:
Or I'd have them bring their best client. And then on the right hand side, it says, people also viewed. Pick one, click on connect, click, add a note, write them a message. And they'd go, oh, how's the weather? And I'd be like, that's trash. No, you would never do that. They'd write something super, super formal and stupid. Hello, Nick.
Nick Bennett [00:22:23]:
Good.
Max Traylor [00:22:23]:
You know, I came across your profile like, no trash. You've met. You saw this person at a bar, you'd go, bro, love the beard. Strong beard, love it.
Nick Bennett [00:22:34]:
Big ups on the beard.
Max Traylor [00:22:36]:
Should connect. Talk later. Check out book profile. Peace. Yeah, you get that message. You're like, I always knew. I like great beard.
Nick Bennett [00:22:46]:
You're like, thank you for acknowledging the beard. Here's one. So one of the ones that I've been spending, I've been enjoying it more since I've been doing this show. And I have that little mini course. Jay at Kunzo calls this the unsolicited response rate urr. And it's like, how many times do people consume the things that you've created passively? Right? They download your thing, whatever. They consume your show, and then they message you. And they're like, hey, I just wanna let you know, I consumed the thing and it made this impact on me.
Nick Bennett [00:23:18]:
Like, after. After you were on the show six months ago, you messaged me and you were like, what drugs are you selling here? Like, I've never received messages before. Like this. It's like, that is unsolicited response rate. That's how you know you are trending in the right direction. Like, the things you're building are making a difference.
Max Traylor [00:23:41]:
Yes. And this is important. You cannot survive on that. That is an indication that what you're doing is building know, like, and trust relationships that you cannot see. But what people experience is the tip of the iceberg. The four or five people that reached out to me because they saw your show, there's thousands of other people that were like, I like these guys. They should do more of that. If you don't go the extra mile and be intentional about look and following up with the people that saw your profile, that liked those things, for every one person that reached out, there's a hundred people that I could reach out to and say, hey, I saw you liked the post with me and Nick Bennett.
Max Traylor [00:24:22]:
Your agency looks like my kind of people. Do you want to be on beers with Max? I don't have time to wait around for people to be frickin inspired to tell me that they loved the shit. There are data points out there on LinkedIn. They're telling you who's looking at you. They're telling you the people that are connected with Nick Bennett that are in my ICP that probably saw our thing and never liked it, never commented.
Nick Bennett [00:24:47]:
Those are the people who buy.
Max Traylor [00:24:49]:
Well, those are the people that are willing to get on a call with you. The most important number in my business is 20 calls a month. If I don't speak with 20 ideal clients every month, my business falls apart.
Nick Bennett [00:25:02]:
Break that down. Cause I know, I think in your book, you wrote kind of your formula, you're like, this is how many messages I need to send to get this many conversations, to get this many calls, get this many clients.
Max Traylor [00:25:12]:
One out of five. Cold outreach to conversation ratio. So, I mean, if I need 20 calls, that's 100. Cold outreach. I alternate weeks from sales week and innovation week because I got to give my brain permission to focus in two different areas. So that's 50 for a sales week. 50 outreach per sales week. I average about 20 an hour.
Max Traylor [00:25:33]:
If I'm going quickly, if I need to rely on cold outreach most of the time, though, I can do about half of my calls based on referrals and people that have liked and commented, which is basically like a shoe in, right? I'm shooting 90%, way warm.
Nick Bennett [00:25:46]:
It's, like, super easy. They'll be like, whoa, max, just.
Max Traylor [00:25:49]:
But I'm talking about ideal, ideal, ideal icps. You look at 40 likes on my thing. Half of those people I already know, half of those people are, I don't know, Nick Bennett's. Half of those people are whatever. And then you got like two or three people that are like, oh, my God. That person owns an agency that's between 20 and 70 people that may or may not be focused on growing client accounts. You can't survive on it. So that's additive.
Max Traylor [00:26:15]:
But it's not hunting and killing for yourself. Hunting and killing for yourself is having a research team constantly developing your list, monitoring that list, reaching out to them cold as ice, and saying, I have an idea. I have a cool podcast. I'm writing a new book. Would you like to be interviewed on my thing? And they go, oh, yeah, now you're in conversation. You need 20 of those. You actually listen. You don't try and sell those people.
Max Traylor [00:26:39]:
You listen to what their current initiatives are. Ten of them will have initiatives that you can contribute to. They'll do a workshop with you. Five of those will turn into proposals. One will close if you're priced correctly. If you're too cheap, you'll close more. If you're too expensive, you'll have an opportunity to close them later, I guess so. It's a one client per month formula.
Max Traylor [00:27:00]:
You need 20 conversations. Now, ten of those turned into opportunities. What happened to the other ten? In fact, what happened to the other 15 that didn't turn into proposals? What happened to the other 19 that didn't turn into deals? They turn into know, like, trust relationships that can refer you new business can refer you to other influencers that you're going to post their content on your profile. They're going to post their, the thing you did on their profile, it's going to expand your network and it costs me $0. In fact, I'm getting paid because I'm learning so much about my ideal clients. If something changes, I talked to 20 people every freaking week. If something changes, I'm like, huh? Ten conversations. Everybody's saying they're not buying content anymore.
Max Traylor [00:27:44]:
It's so weird. You know what's going on?
Nick Bennett [00:27:47]:
I want to pause on the pricing thing. You know, if you're priced right, you'll win. Pricing has been probably the number one thing that has come up in every client engagement I have right now. Everyone is super fixated on, you know, like, these trends coming. Certain things just bubble up across your clients at all in given times. Pricing is one of those things that is surfaced right now for most, if not all of them. How do you think about. I know you're big on the strategy first, like implementation later.
Nick Bennett [00:28:20]:
You do the small tripwire projects. Or at least that was a way that you were doing it. How do you think about pricing right now?
Max Traylor [00:28:26]:
So the key is right now, because every once in a while you admit that you didn't know something. We're not like old people. We weren't around in the seventies. We've seen some trends. But here's what I learned, and I still believe this. In an economy where people have cash, and that is the price is never right, if you get the deal, all that means is that you left money on the table. And for years I said, look, if you get a yes at $10,000, you double the price. The next day you double the price.
Max Traylor [00:28:56]:
You get four more no's at that price. Then you split the difference. I went from charging two thousand five hundred dollars to twenty five thousand dollars for the same amount of work in six months by doing this system because it's consulting. The first thing my dad said when I wanted to be a consultant was that, oh, congratulations, you're a consultant. All that means is you make up the price. That's what consulting is. That's why we do this. That's why I want to do it, so I can play more golf and hang out with my kids.
Max Traylor [00:29:21]:
But when budgets get tight, and this didn't happen during COVID it was still like, yay, here's money. It's happened in the last couple of years. There's been a big change. You have to follow the budget. And so I think now more than ever, it's not a question of like, oh, you're God's gift to the earth. You can charge whatever you want because you're making these companies millions of dollars. No, the fact is that companies have budgets. Those budgets have words next to them.
Max Traylor [00:29:49]:
And if you don't have access to decision makers and get in and lean in and whisper and say, bill, we had a great time last night over dinner. And like, you know, I'm going to send your kid this cool jersey, would you mind just like, I don't know, telling me what those words say next to the dollar signs, I'll make it work. I'll be your PPC person. We got to be able to work with our buyers to understand what they're still allowed to spend money on. We're sitting there trying to scratch it. Budget that doesn't exist. And I think that's been a big revelation for me, is like, it's a time where the relationship with those decision makers, the people that understand what they're able to spend money on, that's what's important. We need outside in service design in times like right now.
Max Traylor [00:30:39]:
And it doesn't even mean you have to change what you do. That's the funny thing. You don't even have to change what you do. But like my business partner, Katrina Bussell says, you have to let them piss on it.
Nick Bennett [00:30:49]:
What is?
Max Traylor [00:30:51]:
They have to use their words. I say, oh, I do service design to help companies make more money. They're like, oh, we can't spend money on that. We need to spend money on making more profit. You're like, okay, so let me get this straight. So let me. Oh, here's what I'll do. I'll take the first page of my proposal.
Max Traylor [00:31:07]:
We'll call it the profit plan. They're like, oh, my God. Yeah, perfect. They have to piss on it. They have to use their own words. They have to make it their idea. They have to feel special.
Nick Bennett [00:31:15]:
I've never heard piss on it before. But this makes total sense. If you're not a line item on the p and L, you're not. They're not giving you their money.
Max Traylor [00:31:23]:
Yeah, you gotta swallow your pride. You gotta be a line item on the p and L, and then you gotta live to fight another day. And then you gotta get it. Then you gotta be. Now it's an uphill battle a little bit, because now you might be seen as a tactical vendor on a line item in the p and L, but at least you get the audience. Now you can say, oh, yeah, our process for giving you that tactical shit is to have a strategic meeting with your leadership team. And, oh, by the way, did you know we just did a big research study with 1000 of your competitors and we could actually inform your quarterly meetings with, they're like, oh, my God, they could be so much more strategically valuable, but you got to get a seat at the table. And that game changes dramatically for a young person like myself.
Nick Bennett [00:32:04]:
What's like the magic line item right now that people are spending money on?
Max Traylor [00:32:08]:
Well, it's spending less money. They know they need content. They want to spend less money. And for years they've been hiring Mary the marketer in a dark room to write some bullshit blog article. The money is actually doing what we're doing right now. When people realize that content is free, all you got to do is reach out, talk to your buyers. You got to have somebody senior enough, somebody knowledgeable enough to hold their own in a conversation. And if you can just press the record button, you got content, you got video, you got audio, you got written.
Max Traylor [00:32:44]:
Once people realize that you don't need to hire a $2,000 an episode podcast firm to make it tolerable, and you just put it into some automated thing and you're fine, price drops to zero. Like, people are spending money on ideas. Well, what people need is ideas. What they're spending money on is, how do I reduce the cost of getting myself out there? And it's been so effing bloated that if you pay me $50,000 or you $50,000 and you went into a company that's spending a million dollars on content marketing, branding, relationship development, we'd wipe the floor with them. We'd be like, what do you mean? Cut every single vendor, cut every single budget line item. We'll save you $900,000. We'll cut your budget to $50,000. It'll be ten times more effective.
Max Traylor [00:33:32]:
Pay me the other 50,000 for solving your problem.
Nick Bennett [00:33:36]:
Yeah. I've come to this conclusion that the money is found at the intersection between their problem, like the thing, so they. They need to save money. Whatever the problem you're going after in your ability to access them. Like, if you can't access these people, one of the things that I find that happens way too often is that people are trying to. They're like, I'm going to sell into series D tech companies. It's like, you could have. You could totally have get their problem.
Nick Bennett [00:34:05]:
But if you can't access series detect companies. No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If you can't access agency owners, you could save them all the money in the world, but no one will know.
Max Traylor [00:34:17]:
Yeah, you shouldn't. If you're not able. I'll give you 20 minutes. If you can book a conversation with an ideal client that doesn't know you from Adam, that you've had no previous connection with, then you are allowed to spend money.
Nick Bennett [00:34:35]:
You are allowed to target these people.
Max Traylor [00:34:37]:
Well, then you're allowed to, because you know how to get the conversation. The problem is, you got people that have never booked a call in their life with their brain and their typy little fingers. If you can't do that, you got no business making investments in paid advertising, in conversion rate, hobbity ha. Enter the cr. Whatever crap people are spending money on today, if you don't know how to get a conversation, there's no amount of visibility that can help you.
Nick Bennett [00:35:07]:
I heard someone say the other day, they were like, inbound is just. They're like, this was just the bust. Like, it's over. It's basically over. The way that inbound as we knew it in that business.
Max Traylor [00:35:18]:
Yeah, inbound is marketing minus conversations. It's trash like that. That's it. They come to you and you're like, it's like a mime. The joke is that inbound is a.
Nick Bennett [00:35:33]:
Mime of what business is supposed should be.
Max Traylor [00:35:40]:
No, you want to just say, do you want to get on the call?
Nick Bennett [00:35:45]:
And they just don't.
Max Traylor [00:35:46]:
They just don't. And they're just like. You're like holding up some white paper.
Nick Bennett [00:35:55]:
Dude. Yeah. I mean, for some reason, there are some people who are way too stuck on wanting people to inbound. To them, it was definitely something that I didn't think much about when I got started, which was I didn't spend a lot of time doing the network thing. And I was like, oh, if I'm just really good at this thing and make a lot of noise, like, I will. People will book calls with me. And to some extent that was it. And it did work.
Nick Bennett [00:36:26]:
But the best ones, like, one, it's just, it was way more effective when I spent more time on relationships than otherwise. Like, and then even doing this, like, this show has drastically changed the shape of my business. Just because you're building relationship content is free, right? Like, you can just build relationships with people.
Max Traylor [00:36:46]:
I told you that after our first thing. You're good at this. You should be doing this.
Nick Bennett [00:36:51]:
It's fun.
Max Traylor [00:36:52]:
It is fun. You learn things. You know, the depressing part about inbound for most people is we're not that good. If you were good enough, if I was good enough, people would be lined up out the door to work with us. Inbound would fuel our business. And there are people out there that are good enough and they have inbound lining their coffers. Sucks to admit I have great results for people, but they're not good enough. So that people are lining up outside the door to work with me.
Max Traylor [00:37:24]:
I actually have to go out there and tell people what I've done. That means I'm not God's gift to planet Earth.
Nick Bennett [00:37:32]:
I think the people that you describe are good enough. Who? There's like people lining up. This is like the relationship to traffic problem. And I don't know if you know someone like, specifically who's like, I can't do it all. Or if you're just referring to them, the ominous them, like, if you're just referring to this, like, people who have a lot of traffic to those get a hun 2000 likes on their posts and a lot of comments and stuff and I, all this, it appears like people are lining up. Maybe they end up selling courses because they have a lot of traffic, but not a lot of people want to work with them most of the time, actually, people with a lot of traffic don't really have a ton of services, I shouldn't say most of the time, but often enough that people will come to me with these crazy follower numbers and they get, on the surface, it's like, oh, wow, massive business here. And they're like, how do I sell the service? Like, I can sell courses because it's touchless and I'm confused.
Max Traylor [00:38:36]:
Yeah, but they, but it's the, you got to get conversations, right? So you're describing the people that can get unlimited conversations from inbound and you've got people that, it happened by luck. You've got people that genuinely worked their butt off for 20 years, absolutely brilliantly, just painstakingly building a personal brand. It doesn't matter how you got there, you're there. And if you're there, you're there. You're good enough. You can rely on inbound. It's not you, it's not me, it's not 99% of the other people. And the problem is those 99% of the other people are looking at the people that can do it and go, I'm going to create some content and wait for people to show up.
Max Traylor [00:39:16]:
No, you got like t minus yesterday to pick up the phone and hunt and kill for yourself. And people don't, people aren't serious enough or scared enough or hungry enough to do it. Shit. You got, like, you stop, just put, just push pause on this episode right now and go send a message to one ideal client. You'll feel better. And you got, like, after listening to what we've been talking about, you got like a 50% chance of getting a call.
Nick Bennett [00:39:43]:
Yeah, go rewind and find like one of the many templates that we just gave and say something human to someone. One of the things Erika Schneider told me, I had her on the show a while ago and it's like, it has stuck with me. She's got like a really big following on Twitter and LinkedIn and all this stuff. And she was, and when she launched her service, all she had to do was say, I have a service now. Calls lined up. She knocked him down, built a phenomenal services business. In a couple of weeks, 16 clients, something like that. Like, no time.
Nick Bennett [00:40:18]:
And I was like, what do you think led to that? And she was like, most of the people were people that I have built relationships with over the last few years. She's like, I do five networking calls a week. I'm meeting people all the time, building relationships with people, keeping in touch with people. She's like, my goal is to just kind of be omnipresent. Like, I want people to wonder, like, how is Erica everywhere? I see her everywhere. That was her goal. And then it paid off. Then.
Nick Bennett [00:40:44]:
Then the day came where she made her ask, and then she built this business. And people look at that and go, oh, she has 38,000 LinkedIn followers. Like, it does. She was able to build a business so easily, and it's like. But they don't see the five networking calls a week that she's like, in, like, starting conversations, people.
Max Traylor [00:41:04]:
And they don't want to hear. That. They don't want to hear, oh, Erica, how do you do it? Well, here's the formula. It's really simple. You do five calls a week for four years, and then you say, I have an offer now. They're like, no, no, we're not going to do that. I'm going to go buy this Facebook course on funnels.
Nick Bennett [00:41:22]:
I'm going to go post pictures of my dog. Here's my take on this picture of dogs, babies and cats. By the way, this is just like, I get all wound up on this one. Everyone thinks the key to success in that type of writing is vulnerability, and I disagree. 1000%. Being vulnerable is like, something some people choose to do. Like, you can share whatever you want about your life with people. If you choose to do, it doesn't really matter.
Nick Bennett [00:41:49]:
It's not the key to success in writing online like that. The key to success there is personality. It's like, why? I read your whole book in one sitting. I was like, oh, this is just, like, easy to read. It's interesting, like, you have a personality in your writing. It's why people love Erica's work, because it's just like, you just know it's hers. It's easy to read, and people are like, she's so vulnerable. She shares all this.
Nick Bennett [00:42:13]:
I mean, like, yeah, she is vulnerable, but that's not why the writing is interesting. It's interesting because it's got a lot of personality.
Max Traylor [00:42:21]:
Yeah, it's like a funny chapter. It says, burn your implementation business to the ground. That's not being. That's not me being vulnerable. But, like, if you know me, you'd be like, mx might say that. Or like, that's what the lead gen is for losers. You're like, hmm, he does work with lead gen agencies, though, doesn't he?
Nick Bennett [00:42:36]:
I laughed at when clubhouse was, like, a thing. I was joking with co workers at the time.
Max Traylor [00:42:43]:
We were like, platform where people could make presentations.
Nick Bennett [00:42:46]:
No, it was like the. It was basically like Ray. It was like live podcasts. It was just like, people talking, and you could, like, listen to people talk, and it was like it blew up, and then it. Then it went extinct, like Twitter, x spaces, whatever. Kind of just became what that. Anyway, here's the point. People are like, this is such a revolutionary idea, really.
Nick Bennett [00:43:05]:
Listening to people talk live without video is old or is new. Cause it sounds a lot like the radio. Sounds a lot like am radio to me.
Max Traylor [00:43:15]:
Sounds a lot like people sitting around a fire so they didn't die.
Nick Bennett [00:43:19]:
Yeah. Sounds a lot like analog podcasts. And I was just laughing. I was like, yeah, everything old is new again. And that's kind of basically what life after inbound is like, back to human stuff. Do the human thing.
Max Traylor [00:43:34]:
Yeah. I think what did it for me is somebody said inbound killed an entire generation of salespeople. We are all salespeople. If we don't sell, we die. You don't need a sales title if you're not selling people on your ideas, your wisdom, your value. I don't care if you're on your own or you're an employee. If you're not selling, you're out of a job, you're dead. Got to sell myself to my wife.
Max Traylor [00:43:55]:
I got to sell myself to my kids every day. It's what keeps a happy family. I have to provide value. I have to sell myself to communicate all the things that a salesperson does. So, inbound has killed an entire generation of salespeople where all that mime behind the glass door trying to point at that frickin CTA, trying to get somebody to download the thing, and they go, oh, they downloaded the picture of our service.
Nick Bennett [00:44:24]:
Now we'll wait for them to call us. We'll wait for them to then do to download again.
Max Traylor [00:44:30]:
You hear that? That's the sound of inbound silence.
Nick Bennett [00:44:36]:
I like this. This is, like the rage against inbound.
Max Traylor [00:44:38]:
We should, like, really do that, though. The Last Inbound podcast.
Nick Bennett [00:44:45]:
Let's do it. Let's do it. I have the bandwidth for that 1000%.
Max Traylor [00:44:53]:
Well, luckily, you don't have to prepare.
Nick Bennett [00:44:58]:
This is like the most unhinged episode of 1,000 Routes yet.
Max Traylor [00:45:04]:
Okay, one more thing. Did I tell you about the world's worst agency?
Nick Bennett [00:45:10]:
No.
Max Traylor [00:45:11]:
Okay, so, I was interviewing Chris Dubois. I've gotten. I've rallied the troops.
Nick Bennett [00:45:16]:
Love, Chris Dubois. Great friend.
Max Traylor [00:45:18]:
Good dude. So we were talking. We were on an episode like this, and we just got to laughing. What if we asked AI to create a website for the world's worst agency? And it would take all the buzzwords, and it would be like the average of what every agency says. And then we got an AI consultant to make the landing pages, and they were ridiculously funny because it actually looked like an agency.
Nick Bennett [00:45:44]:
You did this. This is a real thing. You've done this.
Max Traylor [00:45:46]:
We have the web address. We have some landing page copy. I posted about it. And then I was just talking with a guy who has this software that does conversion rate optimization and constantly scrapes 34,000 a b tests. He's on board. So, basically, we're going to create a website for the world's worst agency, and then all of us agency consultants will be behind the scenes fielding the call to action that says, is this you?
Nick Bennett [00:46:21]:
There's one out there. I think it's called Beige. The world's most average agency.
Max Traylor [00:46:26]:
Crap.
Nick Bennett [00:46:27]:
No, I mean transforming. We're transformers of tomorrow's future.
Max Traylor [00:46:36]:
What the fudge is this?
Nick Bennett [00:46:38]:
This is it.
Max Traylor [00:46:39]:
Oh, my God. Dude.
Nick Bennett [00:46:40]:
The expert team delivers the services below using their experience, expertise, and excellence. Like, excellent. Combining the widest ever range of specialist skills worldwide, our team delivers bespoke services that are fully aligned with your budget and low expectations.
Max Traylor [00:46:59]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:47:02]:
This is just. We proactively, professionally, and paradoxically deliver long term growth for ourselves and for our clients everywhere applicable.
Max Traylor [00:47:12]:
Okay. Okay. So that sounds like it was built by brilliant people. And now I need to check that out. But I also want you to take a look at this landing page, because this is directly from AI. This is us asking AI to do exactly what those brilliant people did. And you could tell that was written by a human because that's hard.
Nick Bennett [00:47:32]:
The services, the first service on their website is strategenious, creative.
Max Traylor [00:47:39]:
I can't do that. But. So check out that link to that post and look at the. Read that screenshot of the AI prompt and the landing page that followed, because that's actually. This is scary how close it is to real people's and agencies landing pages.
Nick Bennett [00:47:59]:
Welcome to the future of next gen agency excellence. We're redefining the paradigms of synergy and pushing the envelope of digital transformation. Our holistic, end to end solutions leverage cutting edge edge technology to optimize your brand's value proposition and accelerate your journey to market leadership.
Max Traylor [00:48:18]:
See, pause right there. The problem with this idea is that's too similar to what people actually write they wouldn't get the joke.
Nick Bennett [00:48:28]:
That's, like, literally what an agency would put on their website where it's like, Beige is, like, so on the nose that it's, like. It's, like, so extreme.
Max Traylor [00:48:40]:
Yeah. And those are the movies that do well, is, like, the absolute parody where it's like, life of Brian. I don't think people would get the joke that, like, no, we actually asked AI to create a trash website that actually said nothing. And it got exactly what you have on your website.
Nick Bennett [00:48:56]:
Right? Like. Like this Beige saying, we work exclusively with every brand anywhere. Like, versus the fact that this thing says, like, why choose us? Seamless integration, data driven insights, innovative disruption, and future proof strategies. This is what actual websites say. Like, this is what actual websites will say. Like, we. We actually use data. We harness the power of big data and use machine learning, and we deliver actionable insights that drive decision making and fuel exponential growth.
Nick Bennett [00:49:29]:
This is, like. I think it just found an agency website.
Max Traylor [00:49:32]:
Engaging were driven by our vision and our culture.
Nick Bennett [00:49:36]:
This is. Yeah, this is just. I'm pretty sure chat GPT just found a random agency's website and gave it to you because that's what that says. We believe in a customer centric approach where collaboration and transparency are cornerstones of success. It's like, this is just an agency.
Max Traylor [00:49:53]:
That'S every executive's wetland. I dream they're like, yes, ship it. Go. Please put that on the site now. Yeah. Crazy. So I. It's the worst part of my day is, and the best part is that we found Beige.
Nick Bennett [00:50:06]:
Agency Beige, I think, is a product of a comp of an agency on the other side of the pond called treacle or something. I have to give them credit where credit is due. I'm pretty sure they're a real, like, they have a real agency. Yeah, treacle. I don't know where they're. I think they're out of the UK.
Max Traylor [00:50:24]:
The funny part was with Chris is we were looking at that and we were just like, shit. We're actually gonna get, like, business inquiries.
Nick Bennett [00:50:31]:
Because people want this. Yeah.
Max Traylor [00:50:34]:
They're like, hey, can you respond to this? RFP? You know it's a joke, right?
Nick Bennett [00:50:39]:
Yeah. Like Beige being a bland parody. Agency is so extreme in that it is like, you could tell this is. It's so run of the mill, which is like, I also like the saddest part. And then you have to call it, like, a one word thing. Just like Binder.
Max Traylor [00:50:56]:
No, we'd call it WWA, world's worst agency. It's already been decided. It's like, already. It's already in development.
Nick Bennett [00:51:02]:
Oh, wwa. And then people are gonna be like, oh, duh. That must be the founders. Wwa.
Max Traylor [00:51:08]:
Yep. Yep, the founders. And we have to have a podcast that I'm pretty sure it needs to just be called growth.
Nick Bennett [00:51:16]:
Just. Just revenue.
Max Traylor [00:51:19]:
Yep.
Nick Bennett [00:51:20]:
Growth and revenue. Money and profit. This is like, the most real one because we got into the weeds of what's actually being done. And also, promoting a fake agency, just from a marketing perspective, is hilarious and a hilarious tactic that's going to make a ton of noise. People are going to look at that.
Max Traylor [00:51:46]:
It also is telling of the state of agency, because I guarantee you there's not some it company website out there called Beige it that bashes how, like, ridonculous it's gotten in that industry. I think agencies are the worst. They're the worst offenders of their own practice.
Nick Bennett [00:52:06]:
Yeah. There's a weird place where, like, where we are in just humanity, where you don't have to be publicly good at the thing that you are good at or say that you're good at or the service that you provide to people. It's just weird.
Max Traylor [00:52:23]:
So I've got a post going up tomorrow on LinkedIn. I had to do it. You know, you get an email. So I got an email from this guy. He goes, have you ever thought about writing a book? Now, for those of you who don't know me, you go to my LinkedIn profile. The first thing you're going to see is the five books I've written. So I get this email, have you ever thought about written a book? I've closed tons of all this. He throws out a big, I've closed all this business.
Max Traylor [00:52:47]:
And it's like you're telling me you're good at helping people close new business, and this is the biggest waste of time I've seen all day.
Nick Bennett [00:52:54]:
Yeah. There's literally nothing more tone deafenhouse than being like, max, have you considered writing a book?
Max Traylor [00:53:02]:
No. What's that like? Yeah, I've always thought about it. That's what I should have said. I should have messed with them.
Nick Bennett [00:53:08]:
Yeah. You know how I know people are wasting my time? Especially because a lot of people, once you publish enough on YouTube or you publish enough episodes of your podcast, I think 20 is, like, the magic number. People start emailing you to help you make your podcast do better or, like, improve your YouTube channel. They send you screenshots of how bad it is. But I know it's all fake bullshit because everyone says, hey, nick, I was checking out 1,000 Routes with Nick Bennett and I really think that the show I'm like the fact that I know you didn't write this and you inserted a contact token called podcast name is the fact that you included my name in the podcast. Like when you were like no one, no human person would ever send me an email and say that to me. They would just say 1,000 Routes.
Max Traylor [00:53:57]:
Here's a little hack for you people that actually want to write a message and that is misspell things and shorthand. Cause I'd reach out and I go Nick, love one k with NB. And you'd go yeah bro, human person wrote that and you'd go cha feel want to talk? Yeah, just something that says you're a human. It's belittle, you know, that's why I don't capitalize the first letter instead of saying hey Nick, I'll say was looking at your profile because I know that that's just going to short circuit somebody's mind and go, you wrote that on your phone quickly while you were at the mall, didn't you? Max?
Nick Bennett [00:54:41]:
I know I brought up Erica before but she does the same thing. She writes instead of because she writes cuz I in all our posts, she's a professional editor, edited over 3 million words and she's thrown in cuz I'm like that's the human personality shit. Yeah.
Max Traylor [00:54:56]:
People in this subliminal one k with NB is like super awesome. Big fan, big ups, period. Wanna talk question?
Nick Bennett [00:55:07]:
Max. It's good to see you, brother. I haven't laughed this much on an episode in a long time. The Last Inbound coming soon.
Max Traylor [00:55:15]:
The last Inbound podcast.
Nick Bennett [00:55:18]:
I'm gonna go get that domain right now.
Max Traylor [00:55:20]:
I hate having such good ideas. I can't do them all.
Nick Bennett [00:55:24]:
I know, but this one, this one's totally doable because it will require zero effort. We just schedule them out till the end of time.
Max Traylor [00:55:32]:
This was awesome. Please, please release this immediately.
Nick Bennett [00:55:40]:
Hey Nick again and thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, you can sign up for the 1,000 Routes newsletter where I process the insights and stories you hear on this show into frameworks and lessons to help you build a new and different future for your own business. You can sign up at 1,000Routes.com or check the link in the show notes.