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Don't forget your homework, this week we're talking season 1 episode 7: Detention, also known as the Breakfast Club.
A Dawson's Creek Rewatch Podcast for those who missed the boat!
Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast dives into each episode of the hit '90s TV show Dawson's Creek with a fresh perspective. Join Cody, Stella, Mal and James as they set sail through turbulent waters determined to understand this iconic teen drama’s place in the modern television zeitgeist.
Cody: Welcome to Freaks and Creeks at Dawson's Creek Podcast. Uh, the show were for millennials who missed the boat 25 years ago. Take the dive for the first time. Join us as we experience the series with a fresh perspective week to week, and see if our adolescent and experiences match up with Dawson and the gang. My name is Cody.
Stella: I'm Stella.
Mallory: I'm Mallory.
James: And I'm James. And before we get started this week, we actually have some capeside correspondence to get through because drumroll, please. We are officially released, I guess, first and foremost. Thank you, everybody who has listened so far at this point. We, uh, have just released episode two. We're about to release episode three, and we are recording episode seven. So who knows when you'll hear this, but we really appreciate it. The response has been incredible so far. We've, um, gotten so many wonderful comments online. Some great reviews from people like Kelbell 26 or RWK Nine seven. Or good grief. Thief. Who says, new favorite podcast. The nostalgia, the banter, the laughs. Keep these coming, please. And we intend to. We've got six whole seasons to go through, so I think you've got 125 more episodes coming your way. Um, in this, uh, I guess, section of our show. In the future, we hope to have more listener interaction. We'll read emails or anything you all send your way. We also have some corrections to make as well. So, Cody, I hear you have something you'd need to get off your chest.
Cody: Yeah, I think before we start, um, I just want to say that the world's problems would, uh, be solved if human beings just admitted when they were wrong and not hold on and double down on when they're wrong, instead, just realize when they are wrong and admit fault. And that being said, Steven Spielberg does have a sex scene in his mediocre Eric Bona thriller ah, Munich, ah, which uh, has him having sex in an intercuts between that and the 1972 political assassination of Israeli Olympians. Uh, I would say not good. And I think that's probably why Spielberg, um, should just stick to his broad, mass appeal blockbuster popcorn thrillers. Um, and then a friend of the show, Laura, pointed out that, uh, the necklace, the Dawson where's that we've all been mocking mercilessly, was, uh, created by James Van der Beek's mom for the show. So to that, uh, James Vanderbique and family, we are deeply sorry. And, um, it looks great.
Mallory: Lovely necklace.
Cody: It's a really nice necklace.
James: It's exactly the kind of necklace that somebody's mom would make for them. So I love that. I think it's adorable. And, uh, we do apologize. Fella. Did you spank Cody with like a film reel or something like that for getting his Spielberg sex stuff wrong?
Stella: Yeah, um, in this relationship, I'm the film nerd. And when I realized that Cody had not noticed that there was a sex, uh, in the Steven Spielberg movie I gave him a talking to pull his card.
James: He no longer gets to have his movie nerd card in his wallet.
Stella: That is correct.
Cody: I can't talk about movies for a year now.
James: Oh no. What's that going to do to our podcast?
Cody: This is our last episode.
James: I, uh, actually have to do a little bit of my own apologizing. In our most recent episode that we have recorded, episode six, um, I revisited the subject of the opening theme that was originally written by Jan Arden called Run Like Mad. And I said, it is terrible. It is the worst song I've ever heard. I can't believe this was written for it. And I can't believe that this is, uh, what, like, they had envisioned for the show. I really talked a lot of shit about it. And, um, I have recently been doing some reading online and there are some very staunch defenders of this song and its place in Dawson's Creek's, um, lore universe world. So I would just like to say preemptively before I get any of those emails because we are recording this a little while in advance from that release. I'm sorry, I was wrong. It still is not a great song. I don't think it matches the vibe of the intro credits at all. But I respect your decisions and I respect your opinions. And, um I'm sorry.
Cody: Never apologize for your taste. I don't like that song either. But I love that people love Jane Arden and that song. That's great.
Speaker E: Yes.
James: Good for them. Well, does anybody have anything else they would like to say before we move on to the actual episode this week?
Speaker E: No?
Stella: Nothing?
James: Cool. All right, well then this week we are actually going to be talking about season one, episode seven, detention. This episode was released on March 3 of 1998 and the synopsis is the brewing conflict among Dawson and his friends erupt during their detention. This episode was written by Mike White and directed by Alan Arkush. And I thought, this is a great episode. What did you all think? How was the watch this week?
Stella: I left this episode. Um, yeah, it was really weird. Uh, when I watched it, it just flooded back to me. This was one that I definitely remember from my childhood and remember thinking it was just like such a cool show as a kid. Um, so it was really fun just like having that nostalgia. Um, and overall, yeah, it was such a great loved Abby. Her energy was really fun and like a fun way to kind of mix up and stir, um, the pot a little bit and we'll get into that.
James: Pot stir for sure.
Cody: She's like everything that I've wanted the show to have. And the greatest antagonist the show could have is someone who is just outright evil. She is evil. There's like no redeeming qualities about her as a character. Uh, but whoever plays who's, the actor that played abby more great, uh, because she's amazing.
Mallory: She's great.
Cody: She's very charismatic. And I really enjoy watching her perform as, um, the Joker.
James: Um, I am seeing that she was played by Monica Keena, who went on to be in films such as Freddie versus Jason.
Cody: Who does she play, Freddie or Jason?
James: That's a great question. I believe she played both of them at the same time.
Cody: Oh, my God. Have you seen that movie?
James: I have. It's been a long time.
Cody: Yeah, there's a part where, um, there's a stoner who gets killed by Freddie and his dreams, and the stoner, um, thinks he's just really high. And, uh, I believe, if I'm remembering this correctly, his bong turns into a caterpillar creature that's, like, controlled by Freddy. Very scary.
Stella: No, thank you.
Mallory: No.
James: Too close to home. No, thanks.
Mallory: Well, I, too, loved this episode. Um, but I got to be honest, it made me hate the Capeside High teachers.
Cody: Why?
Mallory: Well, I feel like they should all be fired or Mr. Gold.
Speaker E: He's fine.
Mallory: Yeah, we'll talk more about it later. But yeah, the teachers we get introduced to in this episode are terrible.
James: They really yeah, they really suck. Their impotent is the word that I would use to describe them. Um, yeah, I agree. This episode was so fun to watch. I loved the, um, different feeling that this episode had. We're all in detention. Uh, we are going to get spanked by Mrs. Tringle. I thought it was great.
Mallory: Um, yeah, so I loved this episode, though. Uh, after watching it, I immediately watched Breakfast Club. Haven't seen that movie in years. Um, and I'm excited to talk about the parallels made in this episode.
Cody: M I loved this. I thought this episode was really great, but I hated The Breakfast Club template because that movie is amazing. But this show is just like, they didn't do anything with the template. Instead of being subversive with it, I just thought it was like I don't.
Mallory: Know, I noticed some things aside, it's not really the template. I noticed some other nods, I guess, that I'll be trying to point out. I don't know. I feel like it's kind of different than the template is a different thing.
James: So you got to be sprinkling in some Breakfast Club lore.
Mallory: One obvious one, and this is probably more about the template, is like the clock. They keep showing the clock on the wall that we see throughout the episode through the 8 hours of detention. That's kind of like, an obvious one. But I saw a few other things that I'm excited to point out.
Cody: I don't know. That's why I don't like about it is, um, instead of doing anything interesting with The Breakfast Club and, like, subverting our expectations of the tropes that are made in that movie, they're just like, yeah, let's just do The Breakfast Club, which is like, where I'm like, you could have done something interesting, um, to change a little bit, but instead it feels like nostalgia baiting to me.
James: True. It is very referential to the point where it's almost like it's like a cover song of a TV episode, which I think they to mouse point. I do think they do. It's, uh, been a long time. I will say full disclosure, it's been a long time since I've seen The Breakfast Club. So for me it was fun to kind of revisit it through the lens of Dawson's Creek because I was like, oh, that's fun. But I'm not as close enough to it to probably have any kind of issue with it.
Cody: Um, I love The Breakfast Club. I'm not saying anything bad about The Breakfast Club. I think that movie is amazing and I understand why they used that but it's like do something original instead of doing something that's already been done.
Mallory: I think that's the reason people love this. You look at a list of the top rated, liked episodes of Dawson's Creek, this is like second. So I think people loved it for that reason.
Stella: But I think also maybe, I don't know, I guess it really depends on the age you were if you were watching Dawson's when it came out. But um, it could be a way to introduce people to The Breakfast Club. You know, people may have seen that and not known what The Breakfast Club was. I think me included. Um, so I don't know there's that, I guess.
Cody: But it's lazy. I think Mike White is a great writer and I feel like this is the best writing the show has been but it's just lazy. It's like, I don't know what better.
Mallory: Movie to reference for a detention episode than The Breakfast Club. That's quintessential detention movie, right?
Cody: No, I know. That's what I mean though. It's like, ah, uh, I'm saying why not just not do a detention episode? Like do something new where you're forcing these characters to interact that isn't just borrowing, uh, 100% from a great movie.
James: And we're still in season one where we're in a limited release. We're only on twelve episodes instead of 24 episodes like they normally get in an order of TV. So why are they already scraped at the bottom of the barrel? Is that kind of your point?
Stella: I don't know. I hear what you're saying, Cody, and that's fair. I think.
James: Uh, you did have your movie car taken away though, so you're out of here.
Stella: M. No, I think given.
Mallory: The situation.
Stella: That we're in with these characters, we have all this bubbling tension between all of them and I think this was a good way to force them in a situation where they had to deal with a lot of their stuff that.
Cody: They and I 100% agree with you.
Stella: Uh huh.
Cody: And I'm saying that they did it in the laziest way possible.
Mallory: Okay.
Speaker E: Yes.
Cody: How about this? You want to get these characters to have these interactions instead do a field trip and they're all in one bus and the bus breaks down and so they're all forced to do there can.
James: Be a scarecrow that comes to life and starts eating all the children and it's like jeepers creepers.
Cody: And that's Miss Trinkle because I refer to her as a scarecrow throughout all of it.
James: This episode has many, um, elements of my supernatural, uh, paranormal plot line that I've been developing and I will be dropping those in through the rest of the episode.
Mallory: Glad to hear about that. I bet you are. Also, I just feel bad for New York City after a while.
James: It's just walking here and all of a sudden the show is just shitting all over it.
Stella: Yeah, because everyone said what they need to say about their feelings.
Cody: Also, a big pet peeve of mine, and this is just personal, is I think the overuse of needle drops in an episode is like, okay, now you're just leaning on something to tell me how to feel. But the fact that we get needle drops is the same song over and over again Saturday. It's not that hard. It's not that hard unless you're like Wong Car wise, like Chunking Express. Don't do that. Don't just have the same song over and over and over again. It drove me nuts.
Speaker E: Brutal.
James: And it got to a point where I was like, is this humorous? Are they doing this to make me laugh? Because there are a couple of times where it's like specifically I'm just going to drop this now before we get to it. But it's the Joshua Jackson the Ducks movies. They just let that sit there for a good long like three or 4 seconds and then they just sat in.
Speaker E: There.
James: Uh, it feels like they're using it for comedic effect at times, which I appreciate, but I agree. It's just like this is the one song, they played that song probably like a dozen times through this episode.
Cody: I wonder if they had to like they're in production and they're like, fuck, we need a song that has Saturday in it. And they're like, oh, we don't have anything for free. We're going to have to pay royalties for it.
James: And like we got to make it work.
Cody: We're going to melt as much as we can. In our opening teaser, we're back in Dawson's room where like a smooth brained YouTube channel host, he claims the film that he and Joey are watching is far too unrealistic and turns it off, claiming that boys wouldn't drag race for a girl's attention. And Dawson shallowly proclaims that women only like romance. After a perfectly normal tickle fight, joey drops a heteronormative truth bomb that not only do guys like girls for superficial reasons, but it's the other way around as well. Joey then hits Dawson with a two for one by stating that if girls only like romance, why hasn't Jen slept with him yet? And more importantly, she points out that Pacey has bigger big boy muscles than him.
James: So I know we've been tracking this movie opening stuff. Who knows what movie they are watching?
Mallory: I do, um, do a little research. They are watching the Hollywood nights. Um, it was a 1980 movie with Tony Danza. Ah. Michelle Pfeiffer and Fran Drescher.
James: Oh is Hollywood nights in the Shanghai Knights universe. Shanghai, Shanghai News and then Hollywood Nights.
Cody: They were trying to pitch it as the third one and they just couldn't get funding for it.
James: It's really fun. That's really brutal.
Mallory: I just searched for a while for like, car racing scenes. Found the matching one.
James: Good job.
Cody: Yeah, nice. The only one I could think of is like, Rebel Without a Cop.
James: I don't think it's that one.
Mallory: Interesting.
Stella: Did anyone notice the Yoyos hanging from Dawson's lamp?
James: Big yoyo head.
Stella: Pretty cool. A red one and a blue one.
Cody: Were you guys into Yoyos in 1998? Because I'm trying to figure out when I got super into Yoyos. Was that.
James: Something? So I wonder if this is backing up Dawson's episode one walking the dog reference as he's talking about masturbation because walking the dog is a Yoyo trick. Maybe he's actually never masturbated before and he's just like, yeah, I get my Yoyo out and I walk the dog while watching Katie Kirk in the morning everywhere.
Mallory: I really hope we get some scenes with him doing Yoyo.
Speaker E: Tricky.
James: God, that would be the coolest thing ever. What are some other tricks, uh, around the world?
Cody: Remember that one? Around the world is that one you fling it down and just spin it?
James: Uh, I can think.
Mallory: So cradle, cradle.
James: Yeah. Okay, Cody, let's start a Yoyo tricks spin off podcast. It's not that hard. Uh, this scene felt really like just a slice out of everybody's life. We've all had that mounted tickle fight with our best friend forever, right? We've all been there.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: Mhm. Every friendship must be consummated with a tickle fight. I believe it's in episode three of our podcast where I talked about how me, uh, and a stranger have never locked eyes and wanted to have sex. But yeah, that was a big reveal moment of, um, listeners. Uh, can hear me die, uh, slowly. But what has happened in my life is I lock eyes with a stranger and I just know we're going to tickle. Oh yeah. Like one day we're just going to tickle each other while watching a movie.
James: It's the only way to settle a disagreement for sure is just some people like to fight it out. Some people like to shout it out. Just tickle it out. First to pee their pants loses. Um, I captured a little slice of audio that I would like us all to take a listen to because this just reminded me, uh, of so much from growing up when we all.
Speaker E: Did.
Mallory: What are you doing?
Cody: I don't get this movie.
Mallory: Yeah, but we've been watching it for.
Speaker E: An hour and a half.
Mallory: I kind of like to know what.
James: Happens when movies get too unrealistic.
Cody: It depresses me. I got a headache.
Mallory: I can't watch unrealistic thaws in.
Stella: Your favorite movie is Et.
Mallory: So a fat fingered alien who eats Reese's PCs and flies around on a.
James: Bicycle, but the emotion is realistic. Reese's PC. Reese's PCs. I had so many friends who would say exactly that.
Stella: Um, I did notice, um two et. Stuffed animals. He had one in the bed and then one right above the bed and.
Mallory: The one in the bed was sitting right between them.
Cody: Yeah, it's a really good movie.
Stella: Yeah, it's great.
Cody: It makes sense.
James: It's a good movie.
Cody: Everyone should have a stuffed animal with their favorite movie.
James: That's why I have the xenomore from Alien.
Mallory: This is our first New York mention. New York mentioned number one in this scene.
James: Oh, that's right.
Speaker E: Yup.
Mallory: When she says she's, um, referring to Dawson liking Gem because she's from New York City.
Stella: Can't resist m uh, going back to the pickle fight. Um, uh, I loved the moment when they stopped and looked at each other like, oh, we can't do this. But all I could think of was like, oh, uh, did awesome just get a boner?
Mallory: Totally.
Speaker E: Yes.
James: They both just look like, in shock. Yeah, there was kind of that facial expression of like, what's suddenly wet and.
Cody: Sticky?
James: Yummy.
Speaker E: Time.
James: Not Et. Is that a fat fingernail or are you just happy to see me?
Mallory: Another thing I noticed right after the tickle fight, joey ends up in that uncomfortable chair that Jen was sitting in.
James: The shame chair.
Mallory: Yeah, the shame chair.
Speaker E: Exactly.
Cody: But symbolically it's the director's chair, so she has the power now.
Stella: Wait, was it, um, the last episode we watched when the three of them were together?
Speaker E: Yeah.
Mallory: Movie night. Yes.
Speaker E: Okay. Yeah.
Stella: And we kind of thought maybe that it would be the end of movie night because of that situation.
James: But here we are back. Maybe we're back.
Stella: Um, yeah, I feel like the only other thing is clearly there's a very intense thing happening with Dawson really wanting to have sex with Jen. Jen isn't having sex with Dawson. It's making him very insecure. It's like the overall theme in this episode and he's insecure but like, threatened by Pacey, I guess. Or like, I don't know. Um, I think that starts with Joey mentioning that he has bigger biceps.
James: Yeah, that's my kind of question is you're right. This episode is especially the scene is setting up this tension that exists. The sexual frustration on Dawson's part, his insecurities here. Do you think that those insecurities are naturally there? Because it really seems like Joey is just sabotaging this relationship as much as she can because she is the one who is feeding him all of these insecurities. Like, she is the one vocalizing all of these things.
Cody: I don't think it's intentional though. This is the thing that does not make sense for the character of Joey is that she's right 100% of the time with all these things because um, he only thinks for himself and he's like in such a weird little box that he's created for himself in thinking how human beings, uh, are. But uh, she's always right. And I don't know if that is intentional because if she were to even, let's say this is intentional, right, and she is trying to sabotage the relationship with Jen, so would she even want to end up being with us and knowing all of these faults? It's not like she's going to try to fix him. They haven't really made that like a plot line. I don't know.
James: What do you guys think? Do you think that she is doing this? What do you guys think? Do you think she's doing this intentionally or not?
Stella: I don't, no, I haven't really thought about.
Speaker E: That.
Stella: It kind of feels like it could be intentional, but I don't know.
Mallory: It also could just be poking like they know each other for so long that it's just like m how they communicate with each other. Like she's poking fun of him. I don't know if it's entirely intentional or if it's just like her way of pointing to.
Speaker E: Him.
James: The way I see it is, I think it is subconsciously intentional, but I don't think she's consciously choosing to do anything. I think that just like we see in the last scene of this episode, she is working through some emotions that she doesn't even know how to articulate or really process. And just like we see when she is arguing with Jen in the gym with Abby there, she doesn't even seem to know that she's doing any of this stuff, but yet it keeps happening. So I feel like it's almost kind of like really good writing because this feels very relatable to things that I've either seen happen to my friends who have crushes on my friends or feelings I've had where I'm like, why am I irrationally angry about this situation? Oh, it's because you're not doing the thing I want. Or I like you and you aren't reciprocating those feelings back. And it's not until much later that I'm able to process that and actually understand what's going on. So I actually really like this detail. Yet again. Dawson's Creek has some of the best first scenes of any show that we're watching. They lay out the plot so well and they keep you guessing on where exactly the episode is going to go. But once you get to the end you're like, yeah, it was all laid out for me. I like it.
Cody: Yeah, Dawson Creek has really good teasers so far. Um, just like in comparison with other shows, we're doing teasers like this, I guess. When did CSI start that's? Like late ninety s, right? I don't know. Yeah, it's like that. It's just like you find the body and make a pun and then that's how you sunglasses on.
Speaker E: Yes.
Cody: And you put your sunglasses on or take them off in a cool way. Uh, this has done a lot of really good groundwork. Reminds me of Star Trek. That's a good show. They also have really good teasers. Uh, another thing that I think is really forward thinking about the sequence is the fact that Joey is talking about feminine, uh, sexuality in a way that is like, oh yeah, it's not just romance because that's what a 1950s movie would tell you. Um, it goes both ways. Like people are shallow and the things that they find sexually attractive. And that's fine. It is what it is. Go Joey. After our intro credits, a sick a Gossip reels us back to Capeide High School where in the halls we see new series antagonist and joker Abby Morgan drop a bunch of stuff, making her late to history class, where we find Joey giving a very thoughtful presentation on Japan Cuban hot dog. Grant leads the boys and harassing her over a segment on shogun sex lives. She hits the hot dog where it hurts by claiming he has a low IQ.
Mallory: I think that moment where Abby drops the items out of her purse, um, that's a bit of a nod. Might be our first nod to Breakfast Club.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Mallory: So in The Breakfast Club, John Bender, who is kind of the imp character that Abby is in this episode, he asks Claire why she has so much shit in her purse and then he inspects all the items. Perfume, blush, lipstick. Um, and then she says she never throws anything away. And in that same scene, Allison, who's the outcast, uh, also purposely spills everything out of her purse and the guys ask her if she always carries that much. So I think that was kind of like their way of that nod.
James: It's interesting club. I didn't even notice that that was Abby in that moment. I genuinely just thought, like, who is this random girl and why is she dropping all of her stuff? It felt like a recognizable nod to 80s teen dramas.
Mallory: Yeah, I think it was a great way of introducing her as the person who's going to shake things up for the group. Look at this person.
Stella: I also just love the, um, students, like running in different directions. It's supposed to be really chaotic.
James: Yeah, I think okay, look, you all know me. You know me. M. You know what I'm going to say, but I don't think you know what I'm going to say. But you know what I'm going to say here. Abby is an agent of chaos, all right? She is not just a normal teen in Capeside, as we know. There are all sorts of crazy supernatural entities here. I do not think that Abby is a vampire, though. I think that Abby is a succubus, some kind of Hellbelly, because she is all about anarchy. And if anybody has ever played Dungeons and Dragons or read any of the forgotten Realms lore, you know that Agents of Hell are all about chaos. And that is Abbey to a T, as we're describing right now. Her introductory scene is chaotic. She drops all of her shit on the floor because she is totally just flying by the seat of her pants. And everything we see about her in this episode, she is just trying to stir the pot, make people go crazy. And what else does the succubus do then? Get inside your head and make you go crazy. So I think it is irrefutable.
Cody: I'm just so excited because we have like 120 episodes left to the show. Like, I can't wait for a character to fall in love with Abby. And I know what that relationship got really.
Speaker E: Close.
Cody: She's crazy.
Stella: I love it in the classroom.
Speaker E: Mhm.
Stella: This fucking teacher, man. Um I felt very angry. The teacher just like, Grant. He's pointing, grant, you stop it. He doesn't even say stop it. He just says Grant like twice. I know, and this Grant is being such a fucking asshole.
Speaker E: Mhm.
Cody: I don't know if you've heard the news, but boys will be boys.
James: That's true.
Stella: And he runs the school.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: According to Abbey, he's a fox.
James: He's the king of the school, as Abby calls it. I think he's a vampire, personally. It might not surprise anybody, but look at him. He clearly knows he's above the law. There's nothing anybody can do to him. This poor, pathetic human. You talk about Grant being a human hot dog. This man is a human hot dog. This teacher, uh, the only thing you can say is Grant's name. I'm confident that's the only thing he.
Cody: Knows how to say Grant, but then.
Mallory: He just watches Grant just completely interrupt Joy's entire presentation.
Speaker E: Okay. Yeah.
Stella: It's not only just interrupting our project, it's being really sexy. It's very inappropriate.
Speaker E: Okay.
Cody: Put yourself in that teacher's shoes. It's like, okay, I could let Joey continue, but Grant's really cool. Like, what if he says something really funny?
Speaker E: Uh.
Cody: M. I want to know what Grant has to say.
James: Yes. And the only reason I care about history and culture of other countries is like, who gets to have sex with all the women?
Cody: Am I right?
Speaker E: Maybe.
Cody: Anyone else have a high school experience like this?
James: Oh, m, man. I mean, I definitely remember these, like, the fourth presentations that you would do in class where like, okay, everybody, we're doing Eastern, uh, post World War Two, eastern European history.
Speaker E: Everybody.
James: You get to make a presentation and then it's just like so I remember.
Cody: That, but I don't remember, um, being interrupted to be mocked.
Mallory: Yeah, and the teachers just letting it happen.
Speaker E: Exactly.
James: The teachers were generally pretty on making sure that you weren't getting bullied in front of the.
Cody: Entire class. Yeah. Dawson snakes his way through the halls, eyes burning, as he catches Pacey and Jen chit chatting about how at one point in Dawson's life he had been called Oompa Loompa by his peers. Luckily, our toxically enraged titular hero didn't hear this. When pressed, pacey denies everything. While dipping from the scene, Jen goes on to complain about school, which Dawson ignores. To give her an empty compliment, she brings up the idea that they should do something crazy that weekend and.
Speaker E: Leaves.
Stella: I felt, um, confused about why Pacey was being kind of an asshole to Dawson. We haven't really seen that.
Cody: Um, m, did you hear they're reinventing his character from here on out? They completely changed him.
Stella: Yeah. Um, I thought it was weird though, because we haven't really seen that kind of dynamic between the two of them.
James: Um, we really haven't seen them compete at all in any environment. It's very out of the left field. It feels like yet again, this show just making wild character choices and then being like, everybody's going to just be hip to our lingo, right? They're just going to pick this up.
Cody: It was really felt like Pacey was rewritten this. Uh, they were just like, oh, uh, we screwed the pooch on this one with this character, uh, for giving him a plot line that kept him out of this show for so many episodes. It's like, now we get to introduce the world to Pacey and it's like, whoa. Yeah, it was startling, you're right. It's just like totally out of left field.
Mallory: Back to the music, um, we didn't mention the first ska song. It continues into this scene but it started in scene, um, to with Abby dropping her contents, the contents of her purse. But um, I wanted to make a connection with, uh, Jen's outfit here in this scene at the lockers. Um, she's wearing a mod navy blue dress with offset lime green polka dot grid pattern which is very kind of like Scott style is very like mod based on like 60s. So I think this is like a little bit of interesting cool.
James: So she's a skyhead.
Mallory: I just like that combo that costume had with the music. And uh, we're going to put her in kind of a mod outfit with her mint green cardigan.
Speaker E: Yes.
Cody: She would go to the Warp tour in 98.
James: I love ska music. I hate third wave ska and therefore I hated this. It was like exactly what I did expect from a 90s TV show though, that is going to choose to include sky music. It's either going to be real big fish or it's going to be something like this and we got this. And at least they're sharp, right? I don't know if anybody went on to listen to the actual song. Actually, I know we did because before we recorded we did listen to it like three times. Um, but they talk about, uh, uh, going out and, uh, going against racists, which he yes, way to go. At least it's a song with a message. But it does suck really bad.
Cody: It's like an actual Scott punk song. Also, I just want to say, uh, Oompa Loompas aren't green, they're orange.
Stella: Yes.
James: Right.
Cody: Drives me insane.
James: But you wear green.
Mallory: They have green hair.
Speaker E: Hair.
Mallory: They're orange, but with green hair. I noticed that as well. Pacey, he mixed that up.
James: Pacific generally, um, continues, uh, being the worst character in the show. Right. No change.
Cody: Well, for me, I was thinking the writer's room, if it was a conundrum, they were like, Shit. How do we actually integrate Pacey into this world now and get people to be on the side? It's like, oh, you can make your main character beat him within an inch of his life. Yeah, it's like now everyone feels bad for Pacey, right. Even if he's obnoxious this episode with.
James: The wild character shift we get he ends up somewhere between where he starts this episode and where he ends last episode. So as a viewer, we're like, we have no idea where he's going. But our palette has been reset for Pacey. I'm curious to talk about this more later, but I feel like by the end of this episode, we all go from being like, man, Pacey's a fucking shithead. To oh, man, Paisy's kind of got it rough. You feel just a little bit sorry for him by the end of this episode?
Speaker E: Totally.
Mallory: Did anyone else think Jen's suggestions for weekend activities were just like, wild wildly out or something? River rafting or jump out of a plane naked? And then Dawson's response was like, okay, that was normal.
Speaker E: Yes.
Mallory: That seems like a thing we do a lot.
Stella: Ah, what are the other rafting or jumping on a plane naked?
James: Are we in the middle of a manic episode here? All I was thinking about is like, okay, whoa, this is very, uh, like, where is this coming from? Jen has not been ran like a particularly wild child up until this point, despite hinting at it back in her New York life.
Mallory: She goes skydiving a lot in New York.
James: Well, she doesn't say skydiving, she just says jumping. You want to start a suicide cult? I'm ready right now.
Cody: I think she's just looking to feel something. She talks about how, uh, all of the teachers hate her. She feels like everyone. She has, like, that big monologue at the end of this episode about how Dawson is a godsend, but, ah, uh, yeah, that's gross. But she just needs something extreme to feel again because everything that she's feeling now is awful. Whenever I'm sad, I skydive naked. Yeah, well, listen to Elliott Smith.
James: I just listened to, uh, the Scoff Hong on.
Stella: Repeat. Also, um, we see this a lot in the next couple of scenes, but just, uh, Dawson is just dripping within security. What did you and Pacey talk about, what are you laughing about? Are you sure you don't mind? And it's very, uh, inattractive.
Cody: Super manipulative.
James: Yeah, like, very gross. He tries to manipulate Jen but then gives up on it. But then in their next scene, so easily manipulates Pacey that it's actually frightening for me. I'm like, Jesus M. Christ, this guy is fucked up.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: In the boys locker room, Pacey complains to Dawson that it's far too distracting. The cheerleaders do the splits during PE as if he's the conservative ghoul Pat Robertson. Dawson switches gears, interrogating Pacey with reverse psychology tactics, forcing out the truth. Pacey and Jen have been discussing the Oompa Loompa subject. Dawson shoves Pacey, who then moon walks out of the locker room with double peace signs and a soulful. Peace brother.
Stella: Yeah, real quick, uh, did anyone notice the lockers?
Mallory: Yes. I think it was rust, but yeah, my initial thought was, is there Pew.
Speaker E: Company?
Cody: Is there any rational person that's ever in the locker room? And having to hear Pacey talk about women being distracted.
Mallory: I also like the line, hey, I don't talk trash, I recycle it.
Cody: Yeah, this show is like trying to make peace. He's so cool. Peace brother.
Speaker E: Basketball.
Cody: He, uh, dances, uh, cool.
James: Yeah, it's definitely trying to play into the cool 90s guy trope, right. He's got all the witty one liners and peace.
Speaker E: Bread.
James: I don't know, um, I thought that I couldn't dislike Pacey more after what we've seen from him in the last couple of episodes, but this episode proved me wrong because I actually now just hate Pacey so much if this is the way he acts because he's insufferable, uh, just the way that he taunts Dawson about everything here Stella, you mentioned it. Where is this coming from? What the fuck is going on? Pacey, we get it. Your whole life is collapsing. But isn't Dawson like, your one friend? Everybody else fucking hates you.
Cody: Well, here's my perspective on it. I don't like Pacey, but now I'm starting to understand Pacey. We know his entire family of 50. They're all cops and they all hate him. He, um, was just in a very bizarre sexual relationship with an adult. And at, uh, the end of this episode he has that monologue about how he feels completely empty, uh, inside and he's a void. So I think he's doing what every boy does and what I certainly did in high school. Whereas I take all my depression and anxiety and I deflect with bad jokes. Totally. And that's just what Pacey does. And he's also like that competition thing. He's just m like being an angry, aggressive boy where he's like, I don't know how to understand these emotions that I have. So I'm going to deflect, I'm going to make bad jokes, and I'm going to try to compete with everyone around me. The only problem I think, with that is that, um, we've known this character for six previous episodes and now this, like, all new, out of nowhere. I feel for him. I don't like him, but I'm understanding his psychology.
James: Yeah. And I guess what's interesting is Joey kind of is doing the same thing. She's acting out based off of emotions that she doesn't understand. Pacey's acting out because of emotions that he doesn't understand or process. And maybe that's yet another parallel, yet another, um, foreshadowing of their got to be relationship that is going to happen. Um, but it's interesting because I excused it completely for Joey. I'm like, oh, man, I fucking feel for you, Pacey. Like, God, this guy's a fucking asshole.
Cody: Yeah, well, I feel like the difference is Joey's never disgusting and Pacey is everything that he says is at the expense of someone else. Joey doesn't really joke around. I mean, she's just like, I don't know, a goof.
James: Yeah, that's true. She's not mean like him.
Cody: Um, speaking of conservative, ghouls health teacher mr. Pickering is yammering to his class that assisted suicide is immoral and sinful. Jen, being one of the few moral beacons in this series, argues against that bootlecking slug, resulting in her use of one of the forbidden curse words which lands her in Saturday detention.
James: Okay, Saturday.
Mallory: Uh, but what is wrong with this teacher? This teacher is worse than the previous teacher.
Cody: He's the worst.
Mallory: Jen raises her hand. Yeah, he calls on someone who's not raised, ignores her, nor is her, uh, calls on someone who's not raising his hand. He was nothing to say, nothing of substance.
James: I have what he said. Can I play this right now? Go for it. So as he ignores her and then Jen speaks up, the teacher then comes back with ms. Lindley.
Cody: I don't know how they run classrooms in New York City, but here at Capeside, you raise your hand until called.
Mallory: Upon when he had just called upon someone who wasn't raising his hand and Jim was just trying to contribute to the discussion.
James: I wish that this is a video podcast because I'm going to find a way to get this into your audio, actually. So stare at your phone really hard right now because the face of the kid that this teacher calls on is hilarious. I laughed so hard when I saw it. We'll post it on our Instagram. Um, it was just great. I don't know if anybody else fell asleep in class, but it was that kind of moment where you're like, you fell asleep in class, the teacher called. Um.
Mallory: Uh, we also get two different mentions of New York City in this scene.
James: Yes, we do.
Mallory: That's three so far.
James: The other one is, um, m probably my favorite piece of lore that this show has introduced about anything, let alone it being vampires or Real World. Let's take a listen.
Stella: I'm sorry, I'm just trying to say.
Cody: That for some this is not Time Square, Ms. Linley. We don't use that kind of language.
Speaker E: Here.
James: You can only say the word bitch in Times Square. All right, people, you'll be prosecuted if you say that anywhere outside of Times Square when you're in New York City.
Stella: This, uh, whole scene had me Lolang.
Cody: Um, wait, what does that stand for?
Stella: Laughs out loud.
Speaker E: Um.
Stella: Uh, are you allowed to say, the teacher says life is God's most precious gift or whatever? Um, are you allowed to save that as like a teacher in a public.
James: School back in the 90s? Anything go?
Speaker E: Anything go.
James: You could have sex with your.
Speaker E: Child.
Mallory: I also thought this is kind of like sad because she's kind of speaking from the perspective of watching her grandfather, who's basically possibly on his deathbed.
James: Okay, uh, before you move on too quickly, I do need to correct I don't think you could have sex with your child in the could have sex with your student in the sorry.
Stella: Thank you.
Mallory: Thanks for that.
James: Before we got emails, m, I needed.
Cody: To get that out. Uh, I was raised in Evangelical Christian, uh, which is a cult. And I had to go to an Evangelical Christian school from kindergarten to 8th grade. And let me tell you, every teacher sounded exactly like that. I believe a nightmare, the earth 6000 years old, science, evil, uh, all of that. So it's like, this was just like wave after wave of just like, trauma that I try to keep, uh, deep down inside of a teacher being like, you are wrong, catholics do go to hell.
Mallory: So were you like Jen speaking up against the teachers?
Cody: No, uh, because it would get you in trouble. I got sent to the principal's office for wearing a Nirvana t shirt. So it's like you couldn't do anything about school, but, um, the Catholics going to helping. That is a true story. I remember, um, our teacher this is so wild. Our teacher said, um, raise your hand if you're Christians. We're at a Christian school. So everyone raises their hand and then she goes, uh, uh, keep your hand raised if you're a Catholic. And, uh, there were like four kids that kept their hands up and she goes, you're going to hell. Wow.
James: Yeah, it's wild, man. I didn't realize that I had an inspiration because that's all I want to do to children is tell them that they're going to hell.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Mallory: That's what teachers are hired for.
James: Well, apparently in Capeside.
Speaker E: Yes.
James: I feel like we're getting a really, um, good look at what life in Capeside is like. If this guy who's a teacher in Capeside High, he's not the singular person who thinks like this in this town.
Stella: Yeah, I was going to say something about, um, a couple of things. One, when I think about the East Coast, um, I don't know, I feel like people usually think about it as a liberal area. Yeah.
James: Yeah.
Stella: Um, so I found that kind of surprising. Obviously we have graham who's a racist. Um, right. And then this other teacher who is very religious. And so are we trying to set up that this whole town is conservative or they're just like some older people.
Cody: That have these it's boomer liberals? That's what it is. I mean, it goes along with what Joey has complained about so far that she says everyone talks in rumors about her family and everyone talks behind her back and just because, uh, her soon to be brother in law is a black man and that's like the talk of the town. So it's like, oh, of course they're going to have teachers that are saying assisted suicide is wrong. We need to protect babies and shit like that. I mean, it makes sense. Capeside yikes.
James: Wonderful place.
Stella: Also, just love everyone's reaction when Jen says, uh, life is not a gift, it's a bitch.
James: Everyone's like, so do we think that she's talking about her grandpa in that moment?
Mallory: Yes, that's what I was saying. She's speaking from the perspective of having a family member, closest family member, who is in that situation where he's suffering. And that's what I think. I think she's speaking from that perspective.
Cody: Guaranteed conversation that she wants to have with Graham. I don't know if she will ever have that conversation, but uh, that dude must be in pain.
James: Yeah, I agreed. I think that moment could have been played for so much more impact and it gets almost lost, which is nice because it makes you think about it. But yeah, I feel like that's a conversation that I hope we get to see with her family that I know we probably will never get to see.
Cody: Human hot dog. Grant reappears in the cafeteria to cut Joey in line for his daily hambo fillings. He equates himself to the Japanese joggans of a report and says she can either be a servant or concubine. Like Robert Pattinson's recent turn as the Batman. She pummels him mercilessly to the ground and says neither.
James: M. Do you guys want to hear some good?
Speaker E: Yes.
Stella: I loved this Joey moment too.
James: Kind of like your report.
Speaker E: Excuse me?
Cody: We're like the show Guns in this school. It's like our cap.
Speaker E: Whatever we want, we get.
Stella: Oh really?
Cody: You can either be my servant or my concubine.
Speaker E: So what? It would.
Mallory: Be neither.
Speaker E: Yeah.
James: I'm so sorry. Uh, you got that to look forward to later.
Cody: I love those 90s sound, uh, effects for Punching. They're so cool.
James: Very.
Speaker E: Intense.
James: I wish that you guys yet again, I wish this was a video podcast because all four of us were doing sassy eyebrows and head shakes and shoulder rolls anytime. Ah, the human hot dog was speaking there because he just oozes this like cocked eyebrow energy. I don't know how else to describe it.
Cody: It's the DreamWorks animation phase.
Mallory: Ah, I really hope this is the last we see of Grant.
Cody: I love this character. I hope he sticks around just so they could beat him up every episode. Maybe him and Abby end up together.
Stella: Um. I just realized that I.
Speaker E: Uh.
Stella: Can't remember what episode we talked about this but. Um. Wanting to see some of the dynamics of our core group before with other people and so I feel like this is kind of like a little indication of like.
Speaker E: Okay.
Stella: So we have these jocks and.
Speaker E: Um.
Stella: Our group isn't really affiliated with them at all which isn't like. That much of a surprise.
Cody: Um, I was shocked to find out that Dawson isn't one of the coolest.
Stella: Kids in school but I really enjoyed seeing the interaction between Joey and him and just like, her being able to stand up to him, which is like something I don't think we see a lot of, a lot of high school shows or movies.
James: Yeah, it was cool to see her, uh, stand up for herself and not let this disgusting person talk to her that way.
Mallory: He tossed her hair behind her.
Speaker E: Back.
Mallory: Does anyone else know what? I looked it up but at the time I had no idea what a hamburger was. I don't know what it is.
Cody: It's a hamburger, right?
Mallory: No, it's a hot ham and cheese sandwich.
Cody: Why is it hot?
Stella: Have you not had a hot ham and.
Cody: Cheese? Why is it specifically hot?
James: That's my question.
Stella: Like a grilled cheese with ham, I guess.
Mallory: I think it has a specific type of bread.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Mallory: And then the other items were fish sticks and mashed potatoes. Noticing the food options that they had at their.
Cody: Lunch. Hambos poisoning American children.
Mallory: Joe was like fish sticks.
Cody: I guess that's when they asked her what she wanted. I just thought hamba was a new cool way to say hamburger.
Speaker E: Uh, me too.
Cody: I didn't even hear it watching the show. I was like, Hamburg sounds awesome right now. Now it doesn't sound very good at all. As a means to reinforce his masculinity, pacey pleads with Dawson for a game of one on one basketball during PE class. Their cinematic duel of the fates closes as Pacey crushes a, uh, poor sport Dawson and does the Unthinkable. Calls him an own balloon as revenge. Dawson throws the basketball at roughly ten 0 mph, uh, right at Pacey's face. As the cheerleaders swarm Pacey to make sure his facial structure hasn't disintegrated, the PE. Teacher gives Dawson Saturday detention.
Stella: So now we know that Joey has attention.
Speaker E: Mhm.
Stella: Dan has attention and Dawson has attention.
Cody: Those of you keeping track of what.
James: Could happen next, I don't know. But I'd like to thank this show for giving me this sound.
Speaker E: Clip.
James: That is the sound of Pacey getting smacked in the face by the.
Speaker E: Basketball. What the hell? Shoot.
Mallory: Pacey and the camera. Yeah, got to experience that one.
Speaker E: Yeah.
James: What do you think they just use like, a dodge ball in that? Because it was really bad.
Cody: It hit him real?
Speaker E: Yes.
Mallory: No, it hit him.
James: He's definitely getting hit in the face. I just don't think he's getting hit in the face with a basketball despite looking like one because that would fuck you up. It would hurt you to get hit with a basketball that hard. It's got to be like a bounce.
Cody: Did anyone do like a frame by frame? Is it actually Joshua Jackson or did they get some poor stunt kid in?
Mallory: I did, I tried to and I think it was him, but that's a good point.
Cody: Hey, kid, we'll pay you $20.
Mallory: Maybe the hit itself with someone else.
James: Yeah, I don't know. Okay, we are going to go ahead and take our first commercial break here. Uh, we will be back after these.
Speaker E: Messages.
Stella: Hey, everyone, just wanted to thank you for listening. It really means a lot to us. If you're enjoying the show, consider subscribing so you never miss an episode. Or if you've already subscribed, go ahead and give us a rating. It only takes a few seconds and it can make a huge difference for our show. So thanks in advance. Back to the.
Speaker E: Show.
Cody: And we're back as Dawson and Jen stroll the detention. Like every man who has ever done anything wrong, he says that neither of them deserve to be there. Jen rattles his memory of when he threw a basketball at Pacey's face, to which Dawson blames Pacey, the victim, for having an attitude problem. Jen says she thought Dawson had more control over his animal instincts, opening the door for Dawson to kiss her awkwardly before they head to the library.
Stella: Um, I don't really have anything to say about the scene except that Dawson is a fucking idiot for thinking that he doesn't deserve to be in.
Cody: Detention. Out of all of them, he deserves to be there the.
Speaker E: Most.
James: Uh, I would say of all of the characters that are in detention, dawson is the only person who actually deserves to be there because Joey was only responding to harassment, basically. And as we'll find out about Pacey, I don't necessarily think that that's a detention worthy offense and then Abby just.
Stella: Being anyway, um, yeah, I don't know if we want to get into this right now, but did any of you guys have detention like this or get detention in general?
James: I definitely got detention. I was trying to think I do remember weekend detention being a thing that you'd be threatened with, but I never did it and I don't know anybody who did. So I'm almost like, was this just one of those urban legends that people would talk about at school? What are they going to do if you're like, oh, I can't I have a job, or any type of activity that keeps me from being available to spend 8 hours in detention. What do they do to double detention you?
Mallory: I never did detention, but I feel like this is an, uh, exaggeration of what it might have been like 8 hours on a Saturday. Maybe there were Saturday detentions that were 5 hours or 4 hours, but 8 hours, it seems like a long time.
Stella: Yeah, especially for the reason that they're all.
Speaker E: There.
Stella: Uh, because m, I remember in middle school people getting detention for lunch or.
Mallory: Just like after school detention.
Stella: 8 hours seems like a long time.
James: Uh, I guess it's the librarian who has to come in and do it, which also feels like, uh, isn't that a punishment for her too? But it's a full day on the weekend, I guess overtime.
Mallory: Did you ever have detention?
Cody: I had detention every week of high school. Yeah. I skipped a lot of classes. I never cared about anything. Uh, I have detention all the time. Uh, but never 8 hours on a Saturday. And then that brings up the question that you're talking about, like, why is the librarian the one that is forced? It seems like a labor issue unless she is getting paid time and a half or something for going over 40 hours a week. And absolutely this country does not care about teachers, but I mean, how cool would it be if you were getting paid to go and watch TV for 8 hours because that's all she was doing. That'd be great. Um, I don't know if I told the story yet about my detention in high school, but we go to this little cubicle room and you'd have to sit there, uh, when school got out and you just had to wait there for an hour by yourself? By yourself, yeah. But you had an ipod so it was like, whatever, I'm just going to go listen to music for an hour. Um, but there's this one kid that I wasn't really friends with, uh, but I didn't know too much about it. He was just like something like popular kid but he was super funny and I remember going and he was like, don't mess with my marks. And I was like, what does that mean? And I went in and he had taken a knife or like a key or something and he was scratching in, uh, marks like you would do in prison to count how many times he finished.
James: It. Did he have a chain wallet by chance?
Cody: Oh, he was 100% joking. Like a joke. He just thought it was funny to make it seem like that question still stands.
James: Did he have a chain wallet?
Cody: No chain wallet. Dawson and Jenner are surprised by Pacey who, uh, faces Saturday's attention and is being tight lipped about his incarceration nemesis and all around batty, abbey morgan joins in and the shoulder padded scarecrow librarian, Mrs. Tringle gives the group at the Tension Rules rundown as Joey arrives late when tranquil dips Abby tours the table, stripping everyone of their dignity with low blow insults. Jen once again uses the forbidden curse word as a descriptor for our detention. Roastmaster.
Speaker E: Abbey.
Cody: I just master. Yeah. Before anyone says anything, did anyone notice a certain poster in the background that said Read? No. I don't know what campaign this was, uh, but in the 90s, kind of like hot milk. There's one for libraries and it would have a celebrity on the poster with their favorite book and it would say Read really big. And the one that they had in their library was Nicholas Cage.
Mallory: We're going to find this for the.
Cody: Yeah, it's him holding a copy of Sedarha, of course. And when I was like, I had forgotten about this image. Um, it's so funny but I look and you can still buy the.
Mallory: Poster.
Speaker E: Yes.
Stella: If we ever get a um, podcast.
Mallory: Studio, we have to absolutely.
Stella: All the Got Mail poster. Read poster. Um, so one of my first thoughts was that I thought it was weird that, uh, like, Dawson and Jen and Pacey don't know that they all have detention together. Like when Joey walks in, they're surprised when they see Pacey, they're surprised.
Mallory: They'd be surprised about Pacey because nobody knows what happened with him. That makes sense.
Cody: You're saying you'd think they would have.
Stella: Had this talk, seen each other throughout.
Mallory: Like Friday night or Friday even afternoon.
Stella: True. Like the fact that Joey hit the most popular guy in school.
Mallory: Like everyone would have talked about maybe well, Dawson probably wouldn't have seen Pacey because they were kind of.
Cody: Fighting. It's like the magic of 90s TV. No, uh, one has cell phones and so it's like if you don't hear about something from somebody else, you just don't know.
Mallory: It's not like they're texting each other or anything like that.
Cody: Usually I give the show a lot of flack for people not communicating between scenes. M, but this is the only time where I'm like, kind of giving a little leeway because it's just like, yeah, Pacey and Dawson aren't talking to each other.
Mallory: Uh ah, dawson dunn. Probably hung out. So they know why they're each in detention, but they maybe didn't see Joey and then no one knows why PCs are.
Cody: Yeah, it seems like Joey is kind of like in this episode.
Speaker E: Yeah.
James: I feel like this show, especially the last couple of episodes, we have pointed um, out multiple instances of it just having very convenient writing. And I feel like this show is just fully embracing the why is any of this happening? I don't know. Because it's kind of like that is the vibe that this episode gives me specifically around this. The last thing we see is stuff going on in school and then all of a sudden we're back. I didn't really process that it was the next day or that it was at Saturday detention. I'm just like, oh, we're still in school. Oh no, it's actually a day later. Oh, and things have changed.
Mallory: Do the.
Speaker E: Song.
Cody: Uh, in, uh, Christopher Nolan's the Dark Night when, um, he sledgers. Joker crashes that party and he's walking.
James: Around, he's like, Wonder, I got these cars.
Cody: Uh, yeah, that reminds me of Abby just walking around the table and everyone's just like, quivering there and she's like, wow, look at you.
Mallory: I uh, love this introduction of Abby because I immediately after watching Breakfast Club, thought this is like she's John Bender. She's this chaotic, the rebel, but also she's kind of also Claire from Breakfast Club. She's kind of playing those two if you watch it. I don't know, that's what I saw in there. And she's also wearing a plaid jacket with red, which is what Benders wearing club.
Cody: Um, is there a Juicy Fruit thing?
Speaker E: Yes.
Mallory: Juicy Fruit placement. Also, her makeup, we get the nineties blue eyeshadow. I think this is the first time we've seen that. That was a very popular makeup look. Um, and she's constantly applying lipstick throughout the.
James: Episode. Yeah, she has quite an entrance and I thank her for giving us this line.
Stella: Oh, great.
Speaker E: It's. Howdy?
Stella: Duty time.
Speaker D: Which I would be using all the time whenever I find something fun. But to your point, Cody, um, Abby says so much in this scene. She has so many lines and I, uh, just clipped this little nugget here because I feel like this properly captures her.
Speaker E: Essence.
Mallory: Did you get the okay, Miss Big Apple?
Speaker D: I missed that.
Mallory: York, mention number four.
Cody: I love it.
Mallory: I love her face acting.
Speaker D: It's great. I feel like she got caught up because of the way that she can physically, uh, emote these lines out.
Mallory: Also, I thought it was silly that she called Paisy's nose a beak.
Speaker D: Seems very all sorts of nose puns in this episode.
Cody: Yeah, well, the nose, uh, is a traditionally, uh, phallic image in film history and so they keep talking about sexuality and everyone, um, especially between Dawson and Pacey and the fact that Pacey has a bandage on his way, like Chinatown. Um, you're crippling someone's, uh, interest things.
Speaker D: So you're saying Dawson broke Pacey's dick?
Cody: Yes. I know sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but this is like very on point interesting.
Speaker D: M. So do you think that this actress had ever heard this word before? Reading it in the script and having to read this line must be embarrassing.
Stella: What did you do, Pacey? Make up another cockamarami.
Speaker D: Story line from the Deep Self.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker D: All right, let's just take that one. That's good.
Speaker E: Enough.
Cody: One of your cocktail.
Speaker E: Miami.
Speaker D: Um, all right, so I've got one more clip here. I'm just going to lay it on us. This is unequivocal proof that the librarian is some kind of creature. I'm not quite sure what. I have multiple theories. I'm curious what you all think. Let's take a listen.
Stella: Well, just don't get any blood on the books.
Cody: And I mean that she means it.
Speaker E: Scarecrow.
Cody: She's a scarecrow. I love that we all independently kind of just, uh, put scarecrow on her uh, Jeepers Creepers. She could I mean, not a vampire. She's the jeepers creeper.
Speaker D: Creeper.
Speaker E: Definitely.
Speaker D: She's some kind of monster. I can't tell if she's a witch or if she is like a crypt. Uh, keepeper type. I personally think between this and several lines that happen later, I think that she is imprisoned in the library. She cannot leave. She is haunting this library. That's why she's watching these VHS tapes. Because she doesn't have cable access here. Somebody has to personally deliver these VHS tapes for her to watch her favorite show, Days of Our Lives. And, um, that's also why she locks them in without any food. There's no food here because she's a ghost or some kind of spirit. Um, the only thing she wants is no blood on the books because why?
Stella: Everyone's a vampire.
Speaker D: It attracts vampire.
Stella: Also, um, Abby refers to them as backwater black sheep. Yes. Anyone ever heard that before?
Speaker D: I've heard them independently.
Cody: I'm trying to put together what does that mean? So backwards. Like white trash.
Mallory: I think that's kind of what she's getting at.
Cody: But like, even with black sheep, outsiders, even if you're trailer trash, but you're not even good enough to be a part of the community trash. You're the black sheep of the trailer trash.
Speaker D: Which is really saying something, apparently. Mhm, uh, I don't think Dawson he's definitely a black sheep. He's definitely a black sheep. But his mom is the news anchor on TV. I don't think that they're part of the backwater community anyway. They live in a mansion house in town.
Stella: And Pacey yes, his dad is chief of police.
Mallory: Right.
Speaker E: Makes no sense. Yeah.
Cody: And everyone else the police make a lot of money.
Stella: There also has some status or something.
Mallory: Like also what she meant by howdy duty time probably, I don't know.
Speaker D: Well, howdy duty is like a kids show, right?
Mallory: The puppet.
Speaker D: Right, right. So it's like, okay, we're in kitty corner. These people don't have ecstasy gangbangs in the boys locker room like I do. They watch how he do it.
Stella: Did anyone believe her story?
Cody: No. Yes. I wanted to. I was like, this show is going.
Speaker D: Somewhere. There's, of course the chance that she was being truthful, but I thought immediately that she was going to be like a foil Pacey character. Like all bark, no bite, uh, full of bluster and bluffing. Um, and I was right because we.
Mallory: Hear her while she's walking in with the library and trying to convince her like, why should I be in detention? What I did wasn't that bad or whatever. I can do some volunteer work. So the story doesn't match up with what you know.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: Also, this says something about the education system having just one umbrella thing that they do for all kids and the things they do later we find out Pacey was jerking off and then we have someone that's like late to class every once in a while. And then we have a couple of students that are doing assault, and they all get the, uh, exact same punishment.
Speaker D: Not only do they get the exact same punishment, but the victim of one of the perpetrators assaults is in the room with them. So good thing that they're not at each other's throats like boys can sometimes be, because Mrs. M tringle was not supervising them or willing to step in in any way if something actually happened.
Speaker E: Mhm.
Cody: And again, my detention experience, skipping class to go out to lunch or something like that, was equating with kids who were, like, selling coke at school. It's like, oh, you got the same thing. You, ah, go sit in a box for an hour.
Mallory: We talked about great last names. Last episode, uh, Tringle is another good one.
Speaker D: Yeah, this show loves weird names.
Cody: Sucks for my nose. Every time I wrote a Trinkle, it turned into a triangle.
Speaker E: Oh, God.
Cody: Me too. Well, Joey finally spills the beans on beating the human hot dog to near death in the cafeteria, which inspires the Gang to probe Abby as to her wrongdoings. Through bit lips and simmering eyes, she hints at a narrative involving an ecstasy fuelled orgy in the boy's locker room. Or what it's known in the modern nomenclature, a Charlie XEX.
Speaker E: Concert.
Speaker D: Got a couple of clips.
Speaker E: Here.
Speaker D: Uh, I had to clip both of these things. Uh, one of them will probably become like, my text message alert, and if ring back tones still existed, the other one would be that. But here we go.
Stella: You ever heard of a little drug called ecstasy?
Speaker D: That's going to be my text message alert, so please don't text me when I'm in work meetings.
Stella: And then you ever been to the boys locker room?
Speaker E: No.
Stella: You ever heard of a little drug called.
Speaker E: Ecstasy?
Stella: Ever heard of an.
Speaker E: Orgy?
Speaker D: That's all I can tell you.
Cody: I'm putting the pieces together. What does this.
Speaker D: Mean? Okay, she gets, uh, ecstasy, she goes to the boys locker room, and she just has an orgy with, uh, 1012 guys. Her I don't even know what to say. It's just a very odd, like, excess.
Cody: Is a crazy drug will make you do anything.
Speaker D: You'll have an orgy in a locker room? Yeah, on the floor.
Cody: What a gross floor that must be. No one's cleaning that.
Stella: We were just saying this, but the idea of giving someone detention for having an orgy like that doesn't really seem like.
Speaker E: Appropriate.
Speaker D: I don't really necessarily subscribe to expulsion, uh, for non, but this is like, if there's a reason to be expelled from school, it might be having an ecstasy field orgy, uh, in a bathroom. There might be grounds for it. I don't know.
Cody: In another lynchian sequence that deconstructs character performance and performer, the Gang discusses John Hughes 1985 film The Breakfast Club leading into a discussion of the core cast. When Emilio Estevez is brought up the veil is lifted and paisy self actualizes through Joshua Jackson proclaiming his love for Disney's Mighty Ducks franchise as he is the star of those films.
Speaker D: Am I the only person who didn't know that?
Mallory: I didn't know it right away, but I um, caught onto it. I looked it up because I was like they took too long of a pause and I thought it had to mean something.
Cody: I immediately groaned.
Mallory: Yes, you probably knew he laughed.
Stella: He thought it was so funny.
Cody: Yeah, I know, but in a bad way. Uh, this is so stupid. This is awful.
Mallory: M. At least the first movie I used to watch when I was a kid.
Cody: Oh, they keep getting better.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Mallory: The third one, they're in college, I think. Um, did anyone notice the book that Jen was reading? It was existentialism in human emotions.
Speaker D: Yeah, that's pretty deep reading for a 15 year old.
Cody: Well, it makes sense. She's uh, flirting with, uh ah, atheism.
Speaker D: I thought you were going to say she's flirting with a few best in boy who thinks he's the center of the world.
Cody: Yeah, it's like a butt on the.
Speaker D: Lips or something, having an existential crisis. Like do I even exist? Do I just exist for Dawson? Am I actually a character in Fuck?
Cody: That'd be great if this was like kind of a Twin Peak thing. No one knows exactly what Twin Peaks is, but like a leading theory is I know characters in a TV show.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: And they're like self actualizing in that way. So it would be interesting to see that kind of character progression of Jen being like, I'm not the main character. Who am I?
Stella: Also, Jen thinks The Breakfast Club stunk.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Mallory: Come on now.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Stella: Does anyone actually not like The Breakfast Club?
Cody: I'm trying to think. There's like valid criticisms of The Breakfast Club. I mean, it's all white kids. Um, and uh, they're all cookie cutter versions of who they're supposed to be. It's like the jock, the goth, stuff like that. So you could be like, well, these aren't really fleshed out. Characters are more of like ideas.
Speaker D: Definitely just archetypes.
Cody: Yeah, but at the same time that's.
Mallory: Kind of the point of it.
Cody: Yeah. And it's ahead of its time to even talk about things like that. Okay. I'm thinking jen's argument. That's her argument. She's like, I want real characters. I want.
Speaker E: Death.
Speaker D: Real m characters like the ones Dawson.
Cody: Writes in his movies.
Speaker D: Like that cousin who shows up randomly after somebody gets killed to become the new main character. That's real characters.
Cody: Shit. Have I already forgotten? Did Dawson ever title his film? Also, is that even a plot point in the show anymore?
Speaker D: I think they forgot that he's a filmmaker.
Cody: Are they still going to send that film to the Boston Film Festival?
Speaker D: I wouldn't be too surprised if it's just already happened because there's just been who knows how much time is passing between each of these episodes. My head canon is that, like, each episode is one month of school time, which is the only way that I can explain why Pacey has all of these crazy shifts in his character every time or every episode.
Cody: A minor argument between Jen and Abbey sparks Abbey to beg the Scarecrow watching soap operas in the AV room to use the bathroom. The gang join in on the adventure and split up to their separate gendered lavatories while Dawson fails to break down barriers with Pacey. While they pee next to each other, abby calls out Joey and Jen for having weird sexual tension with the boys who flush their toilets in unison to proclaim their shared discomfort.
Speaker D: The show loves bathrooms.
Cody: The show loves bathrooms, and it also loves women, uh, authority figures standing with their arms on their hips from a distance, um, staring, because Graham has done that at least twice now in the show.
Speaker D: The maternal shame. There's definitely a consistent theme of that maternal figure being disappointed in you, in the characters that we are watching or trying to live vicariously through. So I think Kevin Williamson has some mommy issues.
Cody: There is definitely a deeper reading to the show. I mean, we have the phallic castration symbolism, we have the female authority figure symbolism. We're a bunch of ding dongs for even criticizing this. This show goes way deeper than we thought.
Speaker D: This show is super heady. I mean, just listen to this.
Stella: Well, we can't all be like you.
Mallory: Abby, uh, having your little ecstasy gang.
Cody: Bangs on the floor of the boys locker room.
Speaker D: Nircism, tell me that that isn't super deep and heady.
Stella: I may be reaching, but I think the four of you have some weird sexual pension deal going on, am I.
Speaker D: Right?
Stella: It's the same Saturday.
Mallory: It's not that hard time.
Cody: No, that's a different that's why I had a groove to it, uh, canonically. In the show, uh, Pacey and Dawson always go pee together, and when they do, they do the urinals that are right next to each other. And I love the idea of Dawson just staring Pacey directly in the face and giggling to get something out of it. Whenever I go into a bathroom, I try to get as far away from another human being as possible.
Speaker E: Yes.
Speaker D: To the point where I'll humiliate myself and use the little tiny child's urinal that's like ankle height. I'm just, like, pull my pants down to my ankles and I'm an actor, so I have to embody the role that I'm given in that moment. I'm an eight year old boy, and, yeah, I'm saying, Daddy, please help me, but I don't think that's so weird. All right.
Cody: Freaks me.
Speaker E: Out.
Cody: Back in the library, Abby gets the group to play Truth or Dare. Pacey, who has chosen Truth back pedals to get out of explaining why he's in detention. Jinji has choice to dare stirring her witch's brew. Abbey dares pacey to kiss Jen for ten whole seconds to Joey's encouragement and Dawson's ultimate revulsion. It is a doozy. The power now in Paisley's hands. He targets Joey with a question of who she's in love with, to which she refuses and changes her choice to dare. Abby's game of 3D chess climax when Pacey daring Joey to kiss Dawson for 15 seconds. And it's very sensual. There is a poster, uh, in the background of the sequence that says Study like it's 1999.
Mallory: I saw that.
Cody: Yes. And um, for those that aren't aware, there's a print song called Party like it's 1999. So this poster is saying, you know, it's just as cool as parting. Like it's studying. Like.
Speaker D: It'S, they're uh, not wrong. Nothing is quite as cool as studying. I mean, it's the only way to get into college. You got to impress your parents.
Cody: I just don't understand why Joey just doesn't lie about who she likes. Yeah, just save yourself. Just be like, uh I like George, uh, Glass from Canada. Just like, throw out some names or.
Speaker D: Fuck it, say Anderson Crawford. You went on a date with him, you kissed him, they all met.
Speaker E: Him.
Speaker D: Uh, it's an entirely avoidable situation that ends up becoming huge for no reason. I guess because she's got.
Stella: Character. I think everyone except Dawson knows in Consents that she is in love with Dawson. So I think they're trying to get her to say it and if she were to make something up, I don't think they would buy it.
Mallory: Also, Abby's egging like this entire episode egging her on to talk about it.
Cody: Which kiss did you like better?
Stella: I thought they were both pretty good kisses.
Speaker D: Honestly, I felt like Dawson and Joey had a much better kiss than Pacey and Jen.
Cody: Pacey and Jen was like very sexual and then the Dawson one was just like, finally romantic love. Also when Pacey stared at Dawson, like when the kiss began was one of the scariest things I've ever loved.
Speaker D: Mhm, it like a horror movie for a second.
Cody: It was like we screen cap that for instagram. I want to write it down.
Speaker D: Yeah. TFW you kiss your best friend's.
Cody: Girlfriend.
Speaker D: It's a power move. Yeah, it was pretty wild. Um, Cody, I did cap this for you specifically. I just had a feeling you might appreciate this. I'll keep the time.
Cody: Oh, yes, I love it. God, she's so good. I know the acting is a little iffy, but that performance is from a different plan. She's so evil.
Stella: I love her voice.
Speaker D: She's got that like, breathy. It's almost like, um oh, what's her name from, uh, Roger Rabbit. Lola Bunny.
Cody: Ah, no, Lola Bunny is a basketball rabbit.
Mallory: Thank.
Speaker E: You.
Speaker D: She's not an animated character from she is a basketball player.
Cody: She's one of the biggest championships in my.
Speaker E: Life.
Cody: Uh, yeah, Jessica Rabbit. It's like if Jessica Rabbit was extremely evil and hellbent on ruining every moment that she can put herself in.
Speaker D: Yeah, I don't know, I just felt like Pacey and Jen's kiss had a I didn't really see, uh, the thing that I understand why Dawson gets upset about it because of course anybody would, but I felt like they weren't like making out where Dawson and Joey were like full on making out of she's.
Stella: Like touching him in a very sensual way.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker D: Uh, there's passion behind their kiss where there is just kind of performance behind Pacey and Jen's kiss.
Cody: Also, let's just talk about Truth or Dare for a second because all these are just like, who do you like? Who do you want to kiss? Let's kiss. I wanted to see real Truth or Dare. At least when me and my friends played Truth or Dare. It's like crazy stuff like I dare you to eat a bunch of glue, take that turn. Obviously this is like a relationship show but I wanted to see someone be like joy dairy to take a dump in a urinal or something.
Stella: I don't know, maybe it's different for girls versus boys but, um, I feel like that's the vibe that I always had when I did Truth or Dare with Friends. It was always like, all right, who do you like?
Cody: And you sold quick, you got to step out.
Speaker D: Yeah, I think that if the four of us were in detention we all got spanked by Mr. Podcast for saying the effort too many times on a recording and we had to go to Saturday detention for, uh, 8 hours. I probably would be like, Stella, who do you like? Um, but eventually I would be like, all right, Mal, uh, go streaking down the hallway.
Mallory: Yeah, they could have even tied it more Breakfast Club. And then smoke some weed like they're smoking weed in the library. And then the bender gets into the ducks, the air ducts and he's like crawling around.
Speaker D: Probably still smoking weed in the bathroom.
Stella: That's another, uh, reference because Joey says, I'll do anything, I'll climb.
Speaker D: Around. Yeah, I guess it's that time, isn't it? Um, all right, well, our second commercial break, we will see you on the other.
Speaker E: Side.
Mallory: Hello there. Jumping in on the commercial break to remind you to find us online. We're on social media at Ah Freaksandcreekspod where we post all sorts of great content. So come and join the conversation. We'd love to have you. We also have a website, Freaksandcreeks.com. It has a really sleek web player which means you can listen from anywhere or share episodes directly with your friends and family. Thanks for listening and enjoy the rest of the.
Speaker E: Show.
Cody: And we're back. And thankfully the sadism continues with Joey choosing Jen for Truth or Dare. She goes the truth. Joey goes for the jugular by asking her who she's most attracted to. A capeside. Dawson spirals as Jen can't quite come up with the right word before landing on Dawson. Jen's embarrassed anger makes her lash out at Joey, saying that her constant dwelling in Dawson's relationship is keeping her from getting a boyfriend. Dawson tries to mitigate the awkwardness with a, uh, suggested jail.
Speaker D: Break. I agree with Jen in this moment when she we all know why she is actually having a difficult time with this question. But I agree with her when she says it's a stupid question because high schoolers don't know the difference between lust and like and attraction and love. It's all the same thing for her. So I get what she's saying when she's like, I like Dawson, it doesn't matter if I'm physically attracted to somebody else. Whatever that is is being overcome by my attraction to Dawson in this m moment. But I don't know. What do you guys think? We all are analyzing this from being adults, so it's a little different for us. But what do you guys think about this interaction here?
Cody: It makes total sense why Jen would like this does not compute for her. Uh, and being put on the spot with that is not great.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: And I think it's very fair to say just like, at any age, it's fine to not be the most sexually attractive to a partner, uh, but wanting them more, that's a regular, normal, healthy thing for her to do. But she knows that Dawson is a maniac. And so if she were to say that she knows that his eyes would roll into the back of his head, his hair would fall out and he would become sucky biz number two.
Speaker D: That's how that happens.
Speaker E: Yes.
Speaker D: Back to my initial question when we first started our scene by scene here. Is Joey doing this intentionally? Because if you think that she doesn't know what she's doing and she's just kind of acting out, then why does she do this? She knows what she's doing. She is trying to hurt Dawson's and Jen's relationship.
Cody: This specifically. Yes, she knows exactly what she's doing.
Speaker D: And I think she is by extension of that fooling herself when she thinks she's doing any of this for any other reason. You know what I mean? I just think that as much as I love Joey and I do think she is the best character on the show, this is the one moment where I'm m like, damn, Joey, this is kind of fucked up. Like, you know what you're doing.
Cody: It's okay to love a character if they're fucked up.
Speaker E: Right?
Cody: Now, my favorite character on the show is Abby Morgan, the greatest character in television history. Not a good person. She would happily burn down an orphanage if she was given the chance.
Speaker D: That's true.
Cody: Which probably happens next episode.
Speaker D: Maybe we're lucky. We have a really fun game in our next scene.
Stella: This is my favorite game.
Speaker E: Yes.
Stella: Cody and I do this, uh, every.
Mallory: Week with your printer scanner that you have at home.
Cody: It's weird because I've never won. Well, so as the gang run past her angle in the AV room, Jen suggests a classic game of guess by butt. The, uh, game that we play once a week and then I lose. Uh, they head to an office where, after scanning each other's butts on a photocopy machine, try to guess who's who. Jen's correct guessing of Pacey's defined cheeks ignites Dawson's short fuse of jealousy, resulting in an argument in which Pacey uses his low blow of Oompa Loompa and Dawson calls him a failure in a laughingstock. As boys do they settle this once.
Speaker D: And for all in a basketball rematch.
Stella: Baby. My first thought when I watched the scene was, like, how did they do this? How did they scan? Was it their butts?
Cody: Are those actual butt scams?
Mallory: This was a thing in the 90s that people did.
Speaker D: Yeah, but that's on the question. Are those the actor and actresses butts that they actually scanned or are those, like, dummy butts?
Stella: Yeah, and if so, how did they film that? Because I feel like that's kind of like, I don't know, inappropriate or weird to film.
Mallory: Yeah. Uh, I bet it was doubles.
Cody: Yeah, it's the same schmuck that was paid $20 to get a basketball thrown in a.
Speaker D: Space.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker D: Should we play this game?
Speaker E: Yeah. All right. Anybody?
Cody: We have a photocopy machine. Parents have a scanner.
Speaker D: When we do our first live show, we'll play a game of live Guess My Butt with everybody in the audience. So it'll be like, the four of us and two people in the audience and we'll have to figure out who's butts who.
Cody: I'm just thinking it's nice this is a production. I can imagine some gross, cigar smoking yucky man being like, all right, James, get on that scanner.
Speaker D: Um, all right, I got it warmed up for you. Katie, make sure to really press your butt cheeks on that, okay?
Cody: If so, if this is actually their buns that have been scanned, do these prints still exist? And have they been auctioned off for millions? Um, of dollars?
Mallory: Is there a poster?
Speaker E: Oh, my gosh.
Cody: Like a Spencer's guest post.
Speaker D: Oh, my God. Okay, our first officialial tur shirt is going to be the four of our butts xerox scanned onto a T shirt. Say Guess by Butt on the top.
Cody: And it will say, uh, Freaks in.
Speaker E: Cheek.
Speaker D: A calendar.
Speaker E: Yes.
Speaker D: The season of winter is all Cody's butt as.
Speaker E: Usual.
Speaker D: Oh, I love this idea.
Cody: So, like, Pacey's cheeks are magnetic. Everyone loves his ass, apparently.
Speaker D: I can't say that I agree.
Cody: Is he ripped? I can't tell.
Mallory: Everyone wears baggy pants, so I can't really see his butt.
Cody: He just looks like a scrawny kid to me. But everyone loves referencing how ripped and muscular.
Mallory: Well, Joey loves referencing yeah, true.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker D: I don't think that he is particularly muscular looking, but at the same time, compared to Dawson, he is a Greek god. Because Dawson, I think his hair just continues to get bigger and bigger but otherwise he is kind of just like an average looking dude.
Cody: Yeah, but uh, Pacey just seems like scrawny to me. Like there's no muscle definition that everyone keeps saying that.
Speaker D: Yes, well, just wait until we get to the gym scene when he takes his shirt off to play basketball because then you're going to see that he looks exactly the same.
Mallory: Oh, also this is another little parallel with Breakfast Club where they sneak out. Yeah, that was the whole thing in that movie.
Stella: I also thought it was funny when um, Peace is on the copy machine and Jen like, looks at him and she's like, all right, zip up your pants, Pacey. She says it was, um, silly.
Cody: I liked it. It's weird that Abby participated. She hates these people. But then again, she cannot turn down.
Speaker D: A good but Xerox FOMO for sure she doesn't want to miss out on this. Um, it's in this scene where they actually do play Guess My Butt right before. Why does Jen have to immediately know which one's Pacey's? But she knows what she's doing too, right?
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker D: Everybody is trying to fuck with everybody in this episode. It's like everybody is having the worst day possible, which I guess makes sense. They are spending 8 hours in detention but God, it's just like I uh.
Cody: Think it's the energy that Abby brings to the room. It's like once you're around something that kind of dark you can't help but feel like you're a part of it and I don't know, it's a bad intoxication. Everyone has to be on her level and everyone's just like heightened and needs to tear each other apart.
Speaker D: She is an energy vampire is what you're saying.
Speaker E: Interesting?
Cody: The, uh, lord gets deep.
Speaker E: Randy.
Cody: The basketball rematch commences and Pacey agrees that if he loses he has to admit why he landed himself in Saturday detention through Abby's heckles. She points out the obvious. Jen and Joey are both hot to trot for Dawson. Joey just wishes Jen wasn't so darn nice about it all. As Abby slurps from the water found, she realizes they need to head back to detention pronto. As the dread sits in, Dawson scores a final winning shot and the gang nearly makes it back before being caught by the Scarecrow.
Speaker D: I am not a very, uh, talented, um, basketball player but I would also love to play Dawson in a game of one versus one because I don't think he actually knows how to play this game. I don't think he knows that you can dribble the ball or like anything because all he seems to do is just kind of wildly flail.
Cody: Yes, I want to know what the direction was during this episode because a lot of it is so much more focused on the women that the guys that are foreground, um, and they're fuzzy. They're not in focus. Yeah, they're just flailing around.
Mallory: It's like. Tackling each other.
Speaker D: At one point they have a wrestling fight, a little tickle fight. I don't know if you guys saw that. Ah, true. Uh, I feel like whatever their intentions were for this plot line and this scene specifically, when they then propose this to James Van der Beacon, he's like, oh, um, that's the one with the orange ball, right? They're like, oh shit.
Mallory: It definitely seems like Joshua Jackson knows how to play. And maybe James Vanderbi doesn't know as much.
Speaker D: I wonder.
Cody: Or is that just acting if this is all performance?
Speaker D: James Vanderbak, great actor, great job, incredible. What if he actually would have been drafted had he not decided to become an actor?
Mallory: We get some product, uh, placement here with the peanuts, joey, uh, and Abby eating some peanut MMM on the bleachers. I think that's also when Abby sarcastically says, us sisters never compete over anything.
Cody: That's.
Stella: Crazy. I know. I think maybe Cody said this, that, uh, doesn't have any redeeming qualities. Um, but I thought there was a moment where Jen is asking, joey, why do you hate me so much? And Abby is like, you guys are never going to be friends if you're fighting over the same guy.
Mallory: And I thought that was like a really nice little kind of an outsider's perspective of what's happening between them, but not nice. She's just pointing. I know what you mean. Uh, it was like you could come.
Speaker D: On girls, don't you see it?
Mallory: Um, and also, I thought the sisters never competed over anything. Was kind of along those same lines. Like, come on, girls. I don't know. You know how we are kind of like including herself with them together. Okay, before you play that clip, another thing, uh, I noticed with, um, what they were wearing. Uh, they're wearing primary colors in their shirts. So they're wearing red, yellow, and blue, which are all complimentary to each other.
Cody: Interesting. Just the women though, right?
Mallory: The women in that scene, they're sitting in this triangle and it's their wearing primary.
Speaker E: Colors.
Stella: We hear that clip.
Speaker E: Yes.
Speaker D: Let's see.
Mallory: You all can never be friends as.
Stella: Long as you keep fighting over the same guy. Joey, it's obvious you're in love with Dawson.
Speaker D: So I think to your, uh, point, earlier you said that she wasn't necessarily being nice. She was just stating the obvious truth. But she could have been much worse or much more mean. To your point, Stella. Actually, if anything, I think this is the one moment where she's being kind of a normal person, just trying to, like, I don't know, help out maybe.
Stella: Yeah, I thought it was just kind of like, um, a night I saw.
Speaker E: Kissing.
Speaker D: I didn't know that was just going to start. I'm sorry.
Stella: You thought it was, uh, just like a nice girl to girl kind of moment?
Speaker E: Yes.
Speaker D: Which is interesting to see. We've seen a couple of attempts at that from Jen to Joey, and Jen rightly, calls her out in the scene like, I don't understand what I've ever done to you. I don't know, uh, I wonder if this is the beginnings of them starting to forge a new relationship. I feel like it is. I feel like this is the episode where when we look back at Pacey, at Joey's storyline, this is where she's going to pivot away from woe is me. Dawson doesn't like me into actualizing that into something else.
Cody: I've been watching a lot of professional wrestling lately and something that I keep thinking about is it's all about long form storytelling. Things that I was seeing back in March are finally paying off now, uh, with that world. And I'm thinking this moment where Abby is beginning to act normal, not evil. This is her thinking the long game. What she's going to do is manipulate these people to do a spousal swap. I bet we're going to see, we're going to get Pacey, uh, with Jen first before he even, doesn't even show and Joey with Dawson. And then the long, uh, game is that she's going to pull the rug out of both of them and try to seduce both men at the same time to make them fight over her.
Speaker D: Affection or all instead of that, have an orgy in the men's walker room with ecstasy of course.
Cody: Either way, loving it.
Stella: Uh, but also just kind of continuing with that. Um, the scene where Abby gets up and then Joey and Jen kind of like continued sort of like this heart to heart where Joey's like, why are you like this? Why are you just so nice?
Speaker E: Right?
Stella: I don't know, I thought that was also kind of a sweet moment.
Speaker E: Mhm.
Stella: It would be so much easier if.
Speaker D: You were a wench. Yeah. And then this beautiful moment is kind of ruined by this which I managed to catch.
Speaker E: Seriously, if we don't get our Xerox.
Mallory: Butts back to the library in the.
Cody: Next two minutes we're.
Mallory: Due will tomorrow ever come by? Dance hall crashers. And we get the montage, the hallway montage which is another Breakfast Club breakfast. Uh, the choreography, the physical acting and choreography was amazing in this where they're sliding and doing their legs up and it was great.
Speaker E: Uh.
Speaker D: That first slide shot you can see Jen has a big smile on her face because I bet it was really fun to film and I think that everybody was managing to keep their character in but Jen for a moment. Maybe that was the one where she let it drop but I thought it was cute because I bet it was just so fun to run around on these. I thought they oiled up those hallways.
Speaker E: Totally.
Speaker D: I thought it was really funny.
Mallory: Well done. Also the shortcut, um, the line where Pacey, uh, knows a shortcut through the locker room, that was John Bender's line in Breakfast Club. He had a shortcut line but another little tidbit.
Speaker D: I just thought it was Pacey trying to get back to, uh, having an orgy in the locker room. Ah, maybe if we go through there you'll just want to have sex with me real quick. All right, well, it is on that note that we are going to take our final commercial break of the day so we will see you after these.
Speaker E: Messages.
Speaker D: Hey everybody, James here. Just wanting to thank you for listening yet again. It is what keeps us going. Now if you are enjoying the show, if you followed us online, if you've subscribed already, it's not the end of the world. There's one more thing you can do. You can tell a friend, call them up. I don't care if you haven't talked to them in months, years maybe they're a friend from elementary school. Call them, tell them I've got a great podcast and you're going to love it. It's called freaksandcreeks. Go to their website, freaksandcreeeks.com. Find them online at freaksandcreeekspod. I don't care, I don't care what you do, just tell them to come and check out the podcast. They're going to love it. And then you're going to be the cool friend who gave them a great recommendation and isn't that amazing? Thank you so much for listening. Enjoy the rest of the episode and go tell your friends about this show.
Cody: And ah, we're back. As punishment, the Scarecrow unravels Dewey decimal cards on the floor for the gang to put back in their correct order before detention ends or else they get detention next Saturday as well. It's revealed that the ecstasy locker room orgy was in fact a ruse. Instead it was excessive Tardy's. Atlanta Abbey in detention as foreshadowed earlier with the purse pick up tempers once again flare between Dawson and Pacey but come to a close of mutual anguish as Dawson admits to feeling sexually inadequate and Pacey feels empty being single. Another revelation unfurls itself as Pacey admits that he was caught jerking off at school after being entranced by the helpful cheerleaders after his skullcrushing accident. Dawson's insecurities are alleviated by another one of Jen's famous monologues about how Dawson is the greatest and is God tear at everything that he does. And just when everything seems right in the world with everyone's hearts having mended, joey spirals, saying that she will die a virgin. And when Dawson says it's only a matter of time before she meets the right guy, joey says she already has basically laying the groundwork for her, revealing her true feelings for our titular hero. The tension implodes as the Scarecrow reenters to proclaim detention has finally ended.
Speaker D: Well done Cody.
Cody: This episode should have been called Revelations Part Two.
Speaker D: So much happens in just the last scene. It is incredible. It's like an eight minute scene of just all of them being like, here's everything that's fucking me up right now.
Cody: Almost like we're watching the breakfast. Totally man, there's a lot to unpack from the sequence, but just the fucking fact that the scarecrow drops all those.
Speaker D: Cards on the ground.
Mallory: Cruel and she gives it an extra tap.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker D: Uh, she kicks it around with her feet.
Cody: She's, like, did not like that shot.
Speaker D: We've talked about her and what kind of supernatural entity it is. I just want us to listen to the cadence and, uh, tone of her voice when she speaks here.
Stella: If even one card is out of order at 05:00, you will all spend next Saturday with me here in.
Speaker E: Detention.
Stella: She does sound like a.
Speaker D: Witch. It's after that scene, but I managed to cut this out just by itself. Here we go.
Stella: So are you hip to my lingo?
Speaker D: So are you hip to my lingo?
Cody: She's a cool lady. I hope she returns.
Speaker D: I believe that she is a ghost. This is my evidence that she is a ghost because she hasn't been able to leave this library for about 45 years. She's been in this library since then. She's like the Moaning Myrtle of Kate, right? Moaning Myrtle is from Harry Potter. All she does is look at little boys dicks when they go into the bathroom and make it a bubble bath. But in this case, uh, Mrs. Tringle, which, I mean, come on, that's a fake ghost name. All she does is try to lock children up and kill them so that they will, uh, join her in her library mausoleum.
Cody: She has the same physical frame as the evil mother from Coraline with, like, the butt knives.
Speaker D: Like the shoulder.
Speaker E: Shoulder.
Cody: She's, uh, tall and thin.
Stella: I hope that one day you know how people make, like, fan art for podcast. I hope that one day we have a fan that will make some type of poster of all the lore that DNA has created. The Dawson's Creek characters imagining all these.
Mallory: Spooky stuff like Tringle as Coraline or.
Stella: Like, a ghost or a witch, uh, some vampires.
Mallory: That would be amazing.
Stella: By any chance, did you clip, um, when Abby says to Pacey, you saw a lot more than your nose, huh?
Speaker D: Oh, yes, I did. This is after Pacey says the reason why he was in detention is because he just had to go walk the dog in the bathroom after all the girls laughed at him or whatever. Oh, no. Because they're being so nice to him. And Abby says, in the most, like, weird, childish way she says this he.
Stella: Said a lot more than your nose, didn't he? He saw a lot more than your nose, didn't he?
Cody: I love it. I love this performance.
Speaker D: Uh, she is so funny.
Cody: Her vocal inflections is a roller coaster.
Speaker D: Just all over the place.
Speaker E: Cool.
Speaker D: Speaking of vocal inflections, though, I'm really happy that this episode exists because I got two really good ones here. I'm, um, going to be releasing an upcoming trap song featuring this sample very, uh, soon. But let's just take a listen to this. It's really short, so we'll probably listen to it twice. Are you guys ready? I am so.
Speaker E: Sick. Yes.
Speaker D: That's it. It's just Pacey getting when Dawson is yelling at Pacey, he says, I am so sick. It is so cool, right? Thank you. Just need some 808 drums behind that. And then, um, Dawson says this, which is something that I'm also very happy for. Do anything for.
Speaker E: Sex.
Mallory: Good one.
Speaker D: Do anything for sex.
Speaker E: Dawson.
Cody: Do anything for sex.
Speaker D: Uh, Dawson is obsessed with sex.
Cody: It's interesting. The tables have turned a little bit with Paige and Dawson.
Speaker D: Yeah, totally.
Cody: It's like three episodes. The thing that we were complaining about is Dawson doesn't know what sex is and he's angry that it exists. And now he's the horniest man in Capeside. Sorry, Mr. Manmade.
Stella: Pacey says something like when he's kind of, like, talking down about himself, he says that he has nothing left.
Mallory: Yeah.
Stella: Dark.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: What was his life before?
Speaker E: Tomorrow? Is that her?
Cody: I already forgot. Tammy.
Speaker E: Tammy.
Cody: What was his life before Tammy? Uh, it's just like another thing that I'm angry that was like, our introduction to the show. But it's like his life is a black void now that Tammy is no longer in it. What was his life before? All we know is that his cop brother and cop dad were probably horrible to him and treat him like garbage, but it's like, at least he has the best friendship with Dawson. I mean, he says that he's like, I'm a screw up, but I don't want to screw this relationship. I don't want to screw up our friendship. But what friendship? All we know about them is Tammy, and they're like, four interactions they ever had during the Tammy pre sex.
Mallory: They work together.
Cody: How are they best friends?
Speaker D: They don't talk. Yeah. I feel like this is why we're starting to see why everybody loves Pacey. Right. I feel like we've all had this interaction where we talked to somebody like, oh, Pacey is my favorite character. And we're all like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Because Pacey is crazy. Um, but I feel like we're now seeing why everybody loves Pacey because he's a blank slate. You just project something onto him. We have no idea what his life was like before any of this happened. And all they tell us is like, god, he is pathetic and awful and everybody hates him. He's unanimously everybody in school hates him. He's now being bullied and ridiculed for this history. He's lost all his will for living and life. So it's like, hard not to just be like, oh, well, okay, this guy poor paisy.
Speaker E: And.
Speaker D: Then I think that there's going to be some stuff that happens in these next seasons that hopefully we start to get that glimpse into his history. But you're right. Like, what is going on with his character? They don't have anything yet.
Stella: Yeah, it seems like there has to be a lot going on.
Speaker D: And why haven't we got a single scene at his house, right?
Mallory: What does the house look like?
Speaker D: Where he's being shouted out the door by his dad, hounding him about chores.
Mallory: That he didn't do, interacting with his sisters or um, diverse sisters.
Speaker D: Excuse me.
Stella: Yeah. I'm obviously like super curious but um, also kind of excited for this. I mean, I'm hoping that they do show us a lot but I feel like there's all this build up, mhm, that he has a really sad home life or something.
Cody: This is the first glimpse into his world, a little bit of his vulnerabilities where I was like, okay, now I can start seeing why people like Pacey because there's like a sadness around his.
Speaker D: Character to help it feel something for him.
Cody: I definitely think he's gross and I don't like the way that he projects his issues by making it all about sex and him being Mr. Coolman, uh, with his peace sign brother hey and then basketball, uh, shadowboxing, Magnetic buns, all that stuff. Not great. But Joshua Jackson is selling the vulnerability of sadness around that character.
Speaker D: I can't say that he's not acting his ass off because I really feel like he's giving a great performance. He feels believable and authentic to the point that I hate him. Um, but I know that he's just acting here but still I don't know.
Cody: A lot of stuff to unpack though. I mean, with Joey we're finally getting there and again, this is something that I thought it was going to be like maybe finale season two. We're going to get Joey finally opening up episode seven. We're almost done with this season. We're over halfway done with this scene, right?
Speaker E: Yeah.
Mallory: She's very distraught, looking very distraught in this scene.
Stella: Really.
Speaker E: Heartbreaking.
Cody: Katie Holmes is so good.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Stella: I really felt for her. Mhm. Um, it felt unclear to me if Dawson understands at all what's happening because throughout the episode there have been hints of like, ah, Abby saying you're obsessed with this relationship or Jenn saying that. Um, with Dawson and Jen. And so it seems like we have established that Dawson is pretty clueless but you would think that he would notice some of that and then for her to be sobbing, not being able to say what she's feeling, uh, I think it clicked.
Cody: I think he was a speechless yeah.
Mallory: When he sat down and he's like, I'm here for you, or whatever he says, I think that's when it clicked.
Speaker D: I wonder how could he be that clueless? I don't know. Okay, so I clicked his advice that he has for Joey here and I have a thought on here and it's related to this. I'm just going to play this really quick. This is what Dawson tells Joey to do in this moment as she's so distraught over her emotions.
Mallory: Maybe if you just say these.
Speaker E: Things won't be strong anymore.
Speaker D: First things first. That's Twin Peaks music.
Speaker E: Totally.
Speaker D: Uh, Laura Palmer's house.
Mallory: Like, what else could he think that she's going to say but that he.
Speaker D: Knows that he has feelings for him throughout the season? He knows from season from episode one. He knows that there's some stuff going on here. So here's what I think. This is what I think is horrible advice.
Speaker E: Okay. Yeah.
Speaker D: Just articulate your feelings and then they'll go away. That's not how feelings work. You don't just, like, speak them into non existence. That's not how it works. But that is how you might think feelings work if you are, like, a victim of toxic masculinity. And I believe, as we've talked about through most of the show, that Dawson is just, like, a living embodiment of toxic masculinity. And on, um, the effects of socialization of heteronormativity in boys who may not be heteronormative males, because I think he's basically, like, just swallow your feelings and pretend they don't exist. Like I do with our subtextual reading that he is a queer character living up to a heterosexual life that he thinks is being imposed on him. I think that's what he's basically telling Joe here. If you just say to them, then they go away.
Cody: I've been doing my whole life.
Mallory: Uh, he's actually telling her to talk about that. Do you think he's just saying, say it, and then it'll dissolve? Talk about them.
Speaker D: Say that you love me right now in front of everybody, and then it will go away. It'll be out in the.
Speaker E: Open.
Speaker D: We can all say that we talked about it and it no longer exists. I don't think I've got Stella convinced.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Mallory: I feel like he's telling her to talk to me, talk about things, let's talk about things.
Cody: But I don't know. I don't even think they are mutually exclusive. I think in his mind, he thinks this is the right thing to do without rewriting the subtext of it. But at the same time, he does believe this is the right thing to do. I don't know if he really means it to be this, um, is what you're saying, James, but I know that is the truth. And it's simultaneously, um, happening with this advice that he thinks, like, if you speak it out loud, um, you will feel free, that burden will be lifted off of your shoulders, and then we'll never talk about it again. I don't think it's mutually exclusive, but I do know what you're saying, and I think you're correct. Um, from one big man to another big man, I'm going to say you're right. Um, thank you. Yeah. But the only hang up that we have is a 1998 show, and they're never going to unpack actually queer character on television if they do.
Speaker D: Perhaps the Doctors Creek.
Cody: That's amazing.
Speaker D: But I will say I do agree that I think that what we're supposed to think is that he wants to talk it out, right?
Mallory: He's telling her that we've known each other for so long, I'm here for you.
Speaker E: Talk.
Speaker D: Do we know what happened in 6th grade? I have ideas. But that's what I was thinking, right? Probably. Because what else would that just be so glossed over?
Cody: Dad prison or dad prison?
Speaker D: Something either or mom dad. Dad prison.
Stella: So all of you think that Dawson knows that?
Speaker D: She do.
Stella: Yeah.
Speaker E: Okay.
Stella: Pardon me. I feel split. I feel like he is such an idiot that it could have just totally washed over him and he didn't understand. But I, um, don't know if we're.
Cody: Going to have to find out the next episode.
Stella: And that's the other thing is like, okay, so every episode has started with them watching a movie. So what the next episode is we're going to see them watching a movie and what.
Mallory: Like, maybe we'll get some conversation about it.
Cody: They'll be watching a movie. They won't be sharing a bed like they usually are.
Mallory: They'll be on the chair.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: They'll be in separate sections of the room. This is what's going to happen. Uh, the teaser opens. Uh, she's in the director's chair and Dawson is like on a bean bag or something in the other corner of the room. And they're going to be watching a classically romantic movie like Casablanca or something like that. And, um, they're not going to want to meet each other's eyes. It says the end. And the movie closes and Dawson is going to be staring straightforward and be like, so what did you think? And then she's going to be like, I don't know. What did you think? And he's going to be like, well, I don't know. What do you think? And then it's going to be like, ha ha, awkward chatter, one jumps out of the window and then I don't want to wait for our lives to be there.
Mallory: I feel like at some point they need to watch When Harry Met Sally because there's like that will they won't they with them?
Stella: I was going to say Saturday is their movie night.
Speaker E: Right.
Stella: Don't they usually watch movies on Saturday?
Cody: Saturday is not that hard.
Stella: So after detention, do you.
Mallory: Think?
Speaker E: Right?
Speaker D: I think instead of watching a classic romantic film in episode eight opening, I think instead what we're going to get is they're going to be watching Dawson's movie. All of them together are going to be all four of them are going to be together because we have to have a come together moment after this hugely emotional split mhm episode. So I think we're going to get a really awkward, uh, opening there where they're all watching this film and then it's like credits roll or whatever. The scene that they're watching ends and it's like, Joey's like, oh, well, I got to get back to what she excuses herself so that we don't get a chance to talk about it and everybody just has to kind of vacate the premises. So we continue to keep the attention going for, I don't know, maybe four more episodes until twelve. But you're probably right. I mean, fuck, they accelerate this season so much they're going to be getting married next week.
Cody: Also, I want to talk about Jen. Um I love her monologue. Yeah, I love Michelle Williams. I think she's a really brilliant actor just in general. And it makes sense that she's in like every other Kelly Reichard movie and having these really deep personal characters with a lot of baggage and crying a lot. It's a lot. She has to do this a lot. I mean, it makes sense that she was casting, uh, her big breakout, like, film role was Broke Back Mountain, right? And through that she's put through the ringer. So that makes sense. I'm scared because the first time she had to do one of these monologues, I was like, oh my god, Michelle Williams is so good. This is great. Then she did it again and it's like, wow, Michelle Williams killing. It's still pretty good. But I'm getting scared that do we have to end every episode or every other episode now with her giving an emotional crying monologue? And it's always about Dawson being m the best. Like it always ends with her being like, hey Dawson, that's why you are Mr. Godeer. Mr. Man for God's.
Speaker E: End.
Cody: I just think it's a problem of writing and filmmaking in general. I like melodrama and I like big emotional moments. But if every episode has the exact same emotional big moment, then what are you working towards? It feels flat. Like at first it was strong, but now it's like, holy shit, are we going to get this exact same monologue every episode? Uh, Jen is something has to happen for her to break out of this rhythm depressing.
Speaker D: I feel like we will get to see that in our next episode. I really feel like we're going to get, um, some gen development coming up soon.
Mallory: This is also New York mentioned number five. I think Jen mentions it herself. So that might be the first time that she herself has mentioned it.
Cody: She's the one where she finally says, I'm swinging here, right?
Stella: Yeah, right.
Speaker E: Exactly.
Stella: She's like, I don't know if everyone just hates me because I'm from New.
Speaker E: York.
Cody: It's happening in New York.
Stella: Um, the other thing was just that so frustrating watching Dawson be so fixated on the sex stuff when Jen has been so clear that she wants to take things slow and he's like so hung up on it and so insecure about it. I understand it logically. Like if someone's not having sex with you and you're like their partner. And that sounds hard for him. And he even acknowledges that at one point when he's talking, he's like, I know that, um, you have said you want to take it slow and I don't want you to think that I'm that guy, but it's like, okay, then what's the point?
Speaker D: It felt like there was a but coming and he doesn't say but. He might as well say, but I really want to have sex with you.
Mallory: But I think about it 1000 times a day.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Stella: And it's like, that's it. That's the end of the explanation.
Speaker D: Uh, yeah, and it's really fucking annoying when we are on episode seven and it feels like every single interaction that Jen and Dawson has had has been Jen being like, hey, I have some baggage around physical intimacy that I need to express to you and Dawson's. Like, I totally understand. Oh, my God, I get it, I get it. No, you don't even need to say anymore. And then the next scene is like, hey, my dick is hard. I need to rub, um, it on something and it better be you or.
Cody: I'm going to be angry.
Speaker D: Wait, what the fuck?
Cody: We just talked about this and he is awful.
Stella: I cut that hair.
Speaker D: God, I know. When do you think we're going to get a Dawson haircut? You know, every character has, like, a moment where their style changes from how.
Speaker C: They might be next season. Sometimes they do style.
Speaker D: Changes from, like, Liberty Spikes. It's going to be like, LLC punk up in this shit.
Speaker C: Did you get the quote about the loop?
Speaker D: But, uh, I don't think I did.
Speaker C: Every insecurity I have about myself exist inside those two.
Speaker D: I did, actually. Yeah, let's play through this because I actually kind of think this is a sweet moment. Here, let's play this. This is Dawson's trigger.
Speaker E: Okay?
Cody: That whole Oompa Loompa thing, the love of God, Dawson, you've blown that thing so far out of proportion.
Speaker E: Maybe I have.
Cody: All right.
Speaker E: But you don't understand. You don't get it.
Speaker D: There's two words oompa loompa.
Cody: I hate those words. It's like every insecurity I have about.
Speaker D: Myself exists inside those two words.
Cody: All right?
Speaker D: When you call me that, it's like you're exposing me.
Stella: Thoughts, everyone? When, um, I watched this episode, as soon as I finished, I did, uh, some face and put it on an Oompa Loompas body.
Speaker C: So we will be posting that.
Cody: I mean, it's just a toxic masculinity. A, uh, big thing with that is being afraid to be vulnerable. And Dawson is terrified of being called an Oompa Loompa because he associates it with people with him having to reveal himself. Uh, our queer reading of the show, that could be one thing. He's afraid of the world finding that out. But his other fear, the virginity and the sexual prowess not being what he wants other people to think is the other thing. And yeah, I mean, if he just opened up about it and talked about it, we wouldn't have a TV show and everyone would be fine. But instead, Dawson, uh, is our main character and we have to follow through. He's a new Palmpa. Uh, When this episode did end, I was having a hard time wrapping my mind around why Oompa Loompa specifically, um, is the thing that he associates with sexual and inadequacy being placed upon himself.
Speaker C: There were some comments about him being, like, small, like a quote. I think they used the word shrimp. When he was younger, he had a growth spurt, so maybe he was just like, that's what I was eating. Yeah, that's kind of what I got from him. Maybe he had a gross spurt, but.
Speaker D: Like, he was I actually capped the audio of Pacey initially, uh, explaining this to Jen. If we want to hear this really quick, it, uh, does use some, let's say, non PC language for today's standards. But let's just take a listen to this. Just fair warning on.
Speaker E: That. What's that?
Speaker D: I'm really walking in the chocolate factory. Green fidgets used to stir the.
Speaker E: Chocolate.
Speaker D: That totally blends credence to what you're saying now. It's because that, ah, he was potentially a small, physically underdeveloped, quote unquote child. Um, he had a sweet tooth. All right. Is he green? Yeah, maybe. Um I totally agree with you though, Cody. This is a multi layered potential reading on this. But I kind of feel like there's something relatable in his moment here about talking about being triggered by something that is, on the surface, completely inconsequential and that maybe everybody feels like we're just joking. Like, why can't you take a joke? Well, because maybe it has deeper implications for somebody. And ultimately, like you're saying, being vulnerable is kind of like the answer across the board. If you are having a physical or emotional response to a word, the only way that you can kind of really move past that is to articulate what that is doing to you, to the people who are doing it to you. Right. Otherwise, it's just going to continue to happen. So I felt like there was kind of, like, a nice message in this scene and the way that they handled this, um, that I enjoyed. It kind of felt wholesome. It felt like we wrapped up the moral of the episode kind of nicely, even if it was like a side story kind of a thing.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: And it's also good that you rarely see friendships between men or boys in this situation, um, actually having a genuine moment together and, uh, figuring out their conflict and realizing that their friendship means something. Usually it's just like, yeah, well, all right, bro, like, we're family. And then it turns into Fast and Furious. It's like, let's just go, like, blow something up together and that'll be masculine.
Speaker D: Let's find a woman to objectify.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Cody: So this them just, like, coming to mutual terms with each other and recognizing the faults that they have within each other and wanting to come out of that.
Speaker E: It's good.
Cody: It was nice and refreshing to see.
Speaker D: It was. Especially in a show that is so filled with this questionable view of masculinity, which I feel like it's kind of ultimately what we're supposed to be reflecting on as a modern viewing audience, as men, I should say. What are they portraying on the Heteronormative Male? I feel like both characters are really showing a good glimpse, at least what my experience was like back in that time. Sure. Um, it's interesting to see. It's probably not what they intended, but it's interesting to see.
Stella: Now, uh, final thought for me.
Cody: Um, are you.
Speaker C: Asleep before you knock off bed?
Speaker D: She heard me start talking and she's like, fuck, I'll go back to bed.
Stella: I was so tired. Um, okay.
Speaker D: It's okay. I have that effect on people.
Stella: Um, I think before we recorded today, we were talking amongst the four of us about the lack of Nelly and if Abby might be kind of, like, taking her role. There was a moment at the end where Abby, uh, goes up to Miss Tringle and it's like, you have such pretty eyes. Uh, uh, totally. And for a minute, I was like, I swear this teacher, Ms. Tringle, is the same teacher that is in Clueless. And I went and checked, and it's not but it was like, they have the same kind of, like, hair.
Speaker E: Totally.
Speaker C: And she takes the glasses off and she's like, oh, you have such pretty eyes.
Stella: Yes, I know where you're going.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Stella: I was like, okay, abby is Nelly.
Speaker D: Uh holy shit.
Speaker E: Yes.
Speaker D: Uh, Nelly isn't just a vampire. She's a shapeshifted vampire. Okay, because I've been trying to so you just talked about this line between Abby and Mrs. M tringle, the ghost who haunts the library, and I called it Abby as a Succubus. And let's just take a listen.
Stella: Uh, it's 430. You should all be able to go home soon. Miss Strangle. Oh, you have such pretty eyes. Have you ever thought about wearing contacts? Abby, you don't have to flatter me. You've served your time and.
Speaker E: Detention.
Cody: Mhm succubus.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker C: Are they shapeshifters sucky best?
Speaker D: Well, not in the traditional sense.
Speaker C: If I open up my economic I think Abby's also John Bender and Claire Standish from.
Speaker E: Breakfast.
Speaker D: I like that. So she extends into the real world as well, not just the world of capeside.
Cody: I also think Abby might be a mummy.
Speaker C: A.
Speaker D: Mummy?
Speaker E: No.
Speaker A: We got to incorporate more universal monsters.
Speaker D: I know.
Speaker C: Uh, totally.
Speaker D: I know. There's a definite theme of universal monsters. And why can't we work in the wolf man? Well, is that the end of our episode? Does anybody have any final if there's so much that happens in this episode, I feel like we could continue talking for, like, four more hours and still be thinking of things. But any final thoughts?
Speaker A: The final review?
Speaker D: Let's do it. Let's go first. I'll.
Stella: Go. Um, I am going to give this EP a five creek. Wow. Um, yeah, I thought this episode was pretty perfect. Um, I said this at the beginning but just the wave of nostalgia that hit me. Seeing it was like so fun because it was just like yeah. I had so many memories of watching this episode and loving it as a kid and that felt really fun and.
Speaker E: Special.
Stella: I feel like, um, they do a really good job of, uh, leading us on and uh, leaving us wanting more chomping at the.
Speaker C: Bit. I'm going to go along with the five as well. Five Creeks for me. Um I loved it. Uh, we're finally getting some new characters introduced. Um, I've heard that Abby sticks around for a while so I'm sure she will start shaking things up a bit for the core four still a signature. I um, hope Grant is a passing fever. Yeah, we never saw him after Joey's punch so maybe he suffered some head trauma and he's in a coma.
Speaker D: God, I think he got all hope. Yeah, maybe he got punched to death.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker C: I loved it. It was fun.
Speaker D: What's your rating? I said oh, you said, okay. I didn't hear the actual number. I'm sorry.
Speaker A: Are we keeping track of our ratings?
Speaker D: Yes, actually you can go to freaksandcreeks. COMRATINGS and I have written up a nice chart that keeps track of all of our ratings by episode with an average rating from the host as well as individual ratings. And you can find out what we think is the best episode of Dawson's Creek by average or, uh, by episode.
Speaker A: That's awesome.
Stella: That's so fun. I love that.
Speaker D: Yeah. Um, actually just this is really crazy because I'm actually going to give this a five out of five as well. This so far is my absolute favorite episode. It's been incredible to watch. It's been really.
Speaker E: Fun.
Speaker D: It really kept me interested the entire time. Um, I know that there is a lot of stuff that they could have done better. It is very referential as we've talked about. It doesn't feel like it's really treading new ground. Um, some of it is a little bit lazy, but at the same time I didn't really care. It was the first time watching Dawson's Creek where I didn't feel like I wished that they had done something different. I felt like I understood why they made the choices they made. It resulted in a really fun episode. There wasn't anything extremely problematic, which is such a nice change of pace. I would love it if there were more episodes where they weren't trying to have a minor, have sex with an adult or anything otherwise problematic. So more episodes like this, please. It felt almost like a cozy mystery, which I would love if they do a cozy mystery. So five out of five best episodes so far.
Speaker A: I will agree that this is probably the best episode so far. Uh, I'm going to be the only one that's not giving it a perfect store. Uh, I give it a four out of five. I mean, the writing is so much more tight and the characters actually feel lived in and real and all of the decisions and things that they do match who. I think I know who these characters are. And this really feels like the opposite of Hurricane, where people were just, like, doing stuff for no reason, just to create drama. So love the character. Beats. Um, I just think there's a difference between homage versus ripping off. In Requiem for a Dream, there's a shot of Jennifer Connolly in the bathtub and she screams and you're like, wow, that's a great shot. And then you later find out it's from the anime Perfect Blue. And you're like, oh, that's cool little Omash. This is just like the exact same beat for Beats and just seen Stealing from Breakfast Club. But I know what they're doing. But it's like, you could have figured out a different way to do it. It's cute and fine. It doesn't hurt anything. I just think it's, um, whatever. But, uh, love Abby Morgan. She's the star of the show. She is the best thing that's ever happened in, uh, general to cinema. And I think she rules. And I can't wait to see what mischief, uh, she creates later.
Speaker D: Four out of five. So I heard a whole lot of, um, petitioning to get your movie card back, so I would just like to question the other host. Do we think that Cody has earned his M movie card back? Absolutely not.
Speaker C: Well, I'm staying out of.
Speaker A: It.
Speaker D: Uh, uh, I have a no vote in this one as well, so sorry, Cody, you continue to not have your movie card for one more week. I'm so sorry.
Speaker A: I guess I don't have any.
Speaker D: Recommendations. Okay, well, on that note, let's move on to recommendations.
Stella: I can go. Um, I'm going to recommend an Instagram account. Uh, it's called Cookie and Mo. That's cooki. Oh, my gosh, I'm starting over. C-O-O-K-I-E-A-N-D-M-M-O-E um and mow. If you love dogs, if you love cats, this is the account for you. Okay, so some of you might be familiar with my favorite murder. Uh, one of the hosts, Georgia Hardstark, she is, um, a wonderful lady and has, um, many pets. And last year, after one of her cats died, it's very sad. She got this cute little pub. And then shortly after that, she got another cat. She already has two other cats. So now she has three cats and a.
Speaker E: Dog.
Speaker D: She has to do math.
Stella: The dog and the cat were, I think, adopted within a couple of months of each other, maybe. And, um, they're both young and so they've grown up together and are bonded. And she just posts like, a ton of videos that are so cute of them playing and just being so, like, fun and sweet. And it just makes me so happy whenever I see one of those videos. It warms my heart. And, um yeah, give it a little.
Speaker D: Follow. I love nothing more than, like, unlikely animal friendships. One of my favorite things.
Speaker C: I'll go next. My, um, recommendation is an Instagram and YouTube account called Pasteagrannies, spelled P-A-S-T-A-G-R-A-N-N-I-E-S. Pasta.
Speaker E: Grannies.
Speaker C: Here it is. Finding and filming Italian grannies who make traditional Italian handmade pasta dishes in their homes. Yeah, this is adorable. Um, each video is usually a different granny or group of them who are friends. Most of them are in their 80s or 90s. Uh, I think the oldest one they've done so far is 101 years.
Stella: Oh, my God.
Speaker C: Yeah. And it's the most wholesome adorable thing that I've ever seen. I'm looking it up each YouTube video. Yeah, so the Instagram videos are a little abbreviated, but, um, on YouTube, at the beginning of each video, they introduced themselves in the dish, and it's all in Italian with subtitles. Um, they introduce the dish they're about to make, and then they chat in Italian throughout the video while they're making the dish. And they talk about maybe the history of the dish in their family or the ingredients in the region that they're in. It's amazing. Absolutely cool.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker A: Do you have any suggestions for your favorite episode so far?
Speaker C: Uh, well, the one with the 101 year old granny is adorable. And then there's, like, a series of three that are friends, and they've done, like, a few of them. But yeah, just check them all out.
Speaker D: They're great.
Speaker A: Uh, I know I'm not allowed to talk about movies, but let's just let this be the last movie I talked about for a week. Um, my recommendation is a movie called we're All Going to the World's Fair. It was written and directed by Jane, uh, Shobrun, uh, premiered last year at, ah, Sundance. It's like a slow burn, art house like horror character drama. Uh, it's about a lonely teenage girl named Casey who starts participating in a creepy pasta MMORPG. Called the World's Fair Challenge on social media. And she befriends another stranger online. And, uh, it's really unique in how it presents the narrative. It uses, like, the POV of phone and laptop cameras and screen captures. So the mileage may vary for those kind of aesthetics, but so many coming of age dramas are really derivative and beat for beat. So something like this really feels unique in how it's presented, and it captures adolescent loneliness and that search for community in such a different way than I've seen, and it felt really refreshing. And the young star, Anna Cobb, is really magnetic and does a phenomenal job of carrying pretty much, like, the whole movie on her back throughout the entire performance and show. Brand has a much needed voice in the space, and I'm really looking forward to seeing more of their work. And if, uh, you like the musician Alex G. He does the score. And it really emphasizes the sadness that permeates the movie. It's super good. If that's like, your kind of thing, you should definitely check this movie out.
Speaker D: I googled this while you were talking about it. Looks really stylistic and cool.
Speaker A: It is. Uh, I'm sure you're seeing the poster with the, um, glow the garden paint. Yeah, no spoilers, but there's a part where people have to really participate to be a part of the creepy pasta. And it's really, uh, depressing. But it's great. Sound great. It's really cool. I feel like, I don't know, it's just like, so many indie. You hear, like, indie coming of age drama and it's like, okay, it's cool. It's going to be about a heterosexual boy like Dawson. And, um, it's going to be about their first love. And you're like, okay, we've seen that 8 billion times. But this being, like, it's like a 13 year old girl and she has no friends, and the only friends that she makes is, like, through the Internet. And our culture is very internet forward these days. So it's like, this movie does feel, like, very online, but there's nothing else like it. And I know a lot of people will watch this and be like, wow, nothing happened. And it's very slow. It's like, yeah, sure, but there aren't any movies like this right now. So it's cool. People should watch things that challenge themselves and, uh, they're not used to.
Speaker D: That's a good point. And, uh, I guess on that note, I will go ahead and recommend, uh, something. You guys probably haven't heard me talk about this before, but, um, king Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard, who are they? They're a really cool Australian psychedelic rock band. They've got 20 albums. They're incredible. Um, if you enjoy my world building antics and what I get up to, you should really check out this band because that's basically their whole premise. Um, but, uh, beyond that, uh, I don't actually have a recommendation. My recommendation this week is, um, insert your own. Fill in the blank. You recommend something to me, but in reality, you should just go start a podcast with your friends. It's the best thing that you could do. It's really fun. Releasing it is really cool. And getting to connect with random strangers online who you probably would never interact with, uh, or meet and have them hear your private thoughts that you forget that you say as soon as they leave your mouth, but then they're immortalized forever. It's really cool. So if you do that, go ahead and, uh, send it our way. We would love to take a listen and check it out because it's great. Right, everybody?
Speaker E: Yeah. Uh huh.
Speaker A: Can we play?
Stella: Jen scream. That will never not be my favorite. But also, I feel like, um, in the last week or so, sometimes all I can hear in my head, Mr. Leary saying I choose to hate.
Speaker E: You now.
Speaker A: It's a really normal thing to hear.
Speaker D: It all the time. I agree. It is something that weirdly pops into my head more often than I would probably like to admit. It's just like, uh, whenever I kind of find myself feeling angry, I will just kind of think, like, I choose.
Speaker E: To hate.
Speaker D: You now. It's so good. Scary. All right, everybody. Well, thank you so much for listening. Um, if you've enjoyed this episode, please go ahead and subscribe to our show. I'm sure you've already done it, but if you'd like to, you can join us as we continue to set sail through Dawson's Creek one episode at a time. If you want more of our freak content, please visit our website@freaksandcreeks.com. You can find us online at freaksandcreekspod or you can write us an email at show@freaksandcreeks.com. Otherwise, until next.