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The fun & fascinating stories of Supply Chain & Logistics.
Bryndis 0:00
Hi. My name is Bryndis Whitson, and you're listening to the Zebras to Apples podcast, showcasing the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. Economic development and supply chain are intertwined. The supply chain industry brings jobs, development and growth to markets both large and small. This podcast chat is with Dave Kalinchuk, economic developer extraordinaire. Dave's career includes Prince Rupert and Rocky View County. He's the author of Rich for the Right Reasons, which showcases how economic development principles can transfer to the individual. Enjoy this episode with my friend Dave Kalinchuk. Have a great day.
Bryndis 0:42
So I'm here with Dave Kalinchuk, and we're talking all things supply chain, logistics and Development.
Dave 0:47
Thank you for having me, Bryndis, congratulations on this channel, by the way. It's a great platform, I think, to have a voice for supply chain, for transportation logistics, especially in Western Canada, is very timely. So perfect. Congratulations on this and your other ventures that, of course, we don't need to talk about because we've already talked about them.
Bryndis 1:07
So thank you so much. Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah. So I just kind of wanted for us to kind of focus a lot and talk a bit about some of your previous experiences, the different things you've kind of learned through working in economic development in those kinds of areas.
Dave 1:31
Yeah. Well, my career has taken me about little over 30 years, to three provinces. I know that's hard to believe, but yeah, I started in Manitoba. Of course, the joke that I tell is with all my East Coast friends that I'm from out east, and my Newfoundland friends say, Well, I don't recognize your accent. It must be Cape Breton or somewhere. I say, No, no, I'm from Manitoba. They say, that's not east. So I come from the Middle East. So Manitoba is, is where I was born and raised, also a fairly significant location for transportation logistics, with the history of western Canada, largely, very much based out of Winnipeg, and spent a lot of time in Winnipeg and a lot of time, you know, working with business and industry and the provincial government at the time. Then my career took me to Prince Rupert BC, where you've got the wonderful Prince Rupert port, and all of the great things that come into Canada through that West Coast again, just naturally led me into a very interesting space in transportation, logistics, working with-
Bryndis 2:29
Well, and it brings up, like so many different areas that you immediately have to learn.
Dave 2:34
Precisely. Yeah. So I think everyone in their lifetime should visit Prince Rupert. Everyone in their lifetime should spend part of their career in rural and remote communities. And of course, Prince Rupert is a pretty nice place to be, as far as rural and remote goes, because you're right on the ocean. But yeah, the role of the port and the CM line that runs out to that location, of course, brought me to Calgary region in 2001. Spent the better part of my career, over 20 years with Rocky View County and all the stars aligned. Cn did a major investment during that time, $250 million.
Bryndis 3:10
Yes, they did.
Dave 3:10
And then port facility, and of course, you know, we're going to talk about Pacific Prairie Gateway, which is a CP initiative, CPKC initiative, but it was very fortunate for me to be in Calgary working on on Investment Attraction and economic development and having all of these supply chain opportunities basically come to Calgary.
Bryndis 3:34
Well, and you know, with the knowledge that you've had, it's been really good kind of as we sit in meetings and talk about, you know, understanding the region, and you were always the perfect person for those kinds of discussions.
Dave 3:50
We actually met through the Van Horn. Of course, Van Horn institute, an amazing group of people, amazing leadership, through people like Peter Wallace. And of course, that just, you know, turns up the volume on all the things that we did together among other groups, like, you know, women in supply chain and Calgary logistics Council. And there was definitely a period of time where we had a lot of really amazing groups, amazing platforms to network, and do projects. And Van Horn was definitely one of them.
Bryndis 4:20
And the moment we met, we were actually in the process of starting, I just started Van Horn, and we were working on the study looking at containers and bringing how do we look at filling up containers with goods going back to ports? And there was another, which is something we can kind of get into. But at the exact same time, there was a brand new facility. It was a 1 million square foot facility that was shortly to be announced, in Rocky view, right? Yeah, the target? Target,
Dave 4:56
Yeah. Well, when Target came to Canada as a retailer, a major retailer, very similar in size and scope to Walmart. And of course, Target came to Canada. They built three major distribution centers in Canada, one in Milton, Ontario, one in Cornwall Ontario, serving the Quebec and Eastern markets. And then one in Balzac, 1.3 million square feet. So that's 22 football fields under one roof. And I toured that facility with the folks from Graham construction, an amazing company. And of course, we went through the whole safety protocol and put on our safety boots and our hard hats and and the joke I tell is the building was so big on the inside, we could only see it by truck, which was true, but you could almost see the curvature of the earth in this building. It was so vast. Wow. And it's a huge building. 22 football fields is massive, right? So the day that Target left the Canadian market, I thought, Oh, great. We've got this 1.3 million square foot warehouse on the Calgary horizon. Who's going to take that over? And Sobeys Empire bought that, and what they've done with that space and the technology within their warehouse is absolutely mind blowing. It's amazing. And of course, the people that run that facility are equally impressive. So Sobeys really, really stepped up. And of course, Sobeys is also Safeway and Fresh CO and so you think of all those grocery stores that get their product from Balzac the same way that all of the food stores that Walmart has across western Canada get their stuff from Balzac right. And the restaurant industry, with Gordon Food Service and Sysco and Prats all get their stuff from Balzac. And Amazon, of course, came into the space with warehousing, yeah, and all that comes from Balzac. So I think Walmart, at this stage, has three warehouse facilities totaling, I'm guessing, over a million and a half square feet. Yeah, their first food distribution center, and then their expansion, and then an E commerce fulfillment facility,
Bryndis 7:03
High velocity, yeah, yeah.
Dave 7:05
So that's a pretty significant cluster on its own, not to mention all the other businesses that had gone into that particular area north of Calgary.
Bryndis 7:14
So yeah, it's a huge development area then.
Dave 7:17
Oh, huge. And it's landowners, developers and brokers that made that happen, right? I was just fortunate to be the economic development guy for the county for 20 years, while all that happened. But I've often told people, and you know, especially in a conference where you know you want to speak confidently but not upset, all your colleagues from other communities, but center logistics for Western Canada is Calgary. It's not Winnipeg, no, it's not Regina, it's not Edmonton, it's not Vancouver, it's Calgary, and that's just going to continue. We're going to lift the lid on that and talk about that in a little more detail. But it's a combination of all these things coming into the right space, with the right landowners and the right investors and pension plans and investors that see that opportunity to do major, major transportation logistics investments in Calgary regions.
Bryndis 8:08
Well, I remember there was one luncheon that we went to, and the senior VP for supply chain for a major company was saying that, if I'm not building a distribution center in Ontario, in Toronto, I'm building it in Calgary, and it's because of geography.
Dave 8:26
Yeah, yeah, well, and the East-West, like Dollarama, recently announced that they're building a major warehouse in in Balzac area,
Bryndis 8:34
Which is really big for many different reasons,
Dave 8:37
Huge, huge. And you look at other other Quebec retailers, the Decathlon. To me, it makes sense. That's a sporting goods they've just expanded into Western Canada. I'd had conversations with them, but to me, they're a logical target for Alberta to pursue warehouse space for. And then they've got that compliment of East and West. So if you've got the Eastern markets, because Canada is a very long country, of course, and if Calgary can continue to be that location, we're going to see a lot of other companies come to Calgary region for that. And you know, others, I often look at antiquated warehouses in markets like Toronto or Montreal or Winnipeg or Vancouver, and I've toured warehouses where they don't have modern facilities. No, they don't have clearance. Floors are not rated for the racking. They don't have technology that allows them for efficient and safe movement of people and goods, the traceability, the LED lighting, the energy efficiency, you know, just having a floor that's level in a warehouse is a big deal. In an antiquated warehouse, if you're off by an inch, that is a problem for a four pound rack, right, right? And you know the things that you learn along the way? You walk into a space and you go, wow, these guys need a new warehouse. And, yeah, so my work, my work in investment, attraction continues and it never stops. Yeah, right. But again, you want to be respectful of these companies. You don't want to come in and say, Hey, your warehouse is inadequate, because that's what they work with. You just build a relationship with them. When the conversation comes up, they can talk about, hey, what's your plan for the future? What's your plan for growth?
Bryndis 8:38
And you even look at like, building materials now that, as you were kind of saying that I was thinking of a few times too, where they're talking about how their their radio signals wouldn't work, and sometimes, because it's concrete on concrete on concrete, yeah,
Dave 10:33
One of the most impressive warehouse facilities I've ever seen that continues to blow my mind was the Walmart food distribution center, and I was touring that with the engineering team that had done a lot of the real finishing details on and I'm looking at the floor of this brand new warehouse, half 550,000 square feet, and it is smooth as glass, and not a single seam anywhere in the concrete. I said, Tell me the story about these floors. So Walmart had calculated the wear and tear on tires, on seams within a concrete pour. So if you got 70 or 80 vehicles within a warehouse all zooming around every time they could go over the seam or the, you know, the position between one slab of concrete and the other that prematurely wears the tires. Oh, Walmart calculates that to the dime, so in their new facility, then down a continuous pour and polish. And the whole thing was like, smooth as anything. I don't think I've even seen smooth floors that smooth in retail facilities. And that attention to detail, to me, shows that those companies are very, very well positioned. They're very efficient. They know their numbers, they know what they need to do, even the Target experience other retailers have kind of debriefed. See, you know what? What could Target have done differently, you know? And there's only three kinds of businesses in the world. Businesses that never learn from their experience, businesses that learn from their experience or their mistakes, and businesses that learn from other people's experiences, right? And that's the best kind. So if you can learn from others' mistakes and say, yeah, probably shouldn't do that, or best practices like Walmart, like Amazon, yeah, Sobeys, like GFS, Gordon Food Service, you know, all these companies that, to me, are pretty cool.
Bryndis 12:32
Well and there's so many different areas that you probably looked at that, you know, and learnings that you know, along that way.
Dave 12:39
For sure. Yeah. Well, and then the beautiful thing about warehousing in particular, is it's fairly low water using investment, right? If anything, what we found in the Balzac area is, if a million square foot building receives an inch of rain, how much rain runs off the roof, right? Right? So now you've got a surplus water opportunity. Can that water be reused? Can you do a truck wash? Can you do enhanced landscaping? Can you do all of these different things? So there are opportunities in a place like Alberta, where it's quite dry, where you've actually got surplus water, right, right? And of course, there's a seasonality to that, because you don't always have that water available, but a robust, technologically appropriate utility system, which the county built in probably 2002 basically opened the doors for all of these investments to happen. So being truly shovel ready, I think it's something a lot of communities in Alberta are starting to realize, yeah, not only having access to world class, you know, transportation routes or amenities like airports and and so on, but also having access to natural gas, to three phase power, proximity to workforce, you know. And I think Calgary region, I'll talk about some of the numbers. But Calgary region, with 1.4 million people in the metro, is a pretty large pool to draw from, right? So if you need a left handed specialist from a particular niche within a market, you're going to find it in Calgary Right, right. There's enough people.
Bryndis 14:18
Exactly. And so when you look at kind of the population growth and stuff, is that maybe something where you wanted to kind of go next or-
Dave 14:25
Well, there was a study that the province had commissioned back in September, and it was called a population projection study. Current population in Alberta is about 4.84 point 9 million people, but this particular study said we're gonna have 7.3 million people by 2050 and actually, with current growth models, it's going to be closer to 8.8, right. Now, most of those people, like 82% of that population, are going to be located within the Calgary, Edmonton corridor. Yeah, right. I could see that. And that's something you can see today. Like. Lot of economic growth, a lot of investment, a lot of things that are happening are happening within the dog bone, the Calgary, Edmonton corridor. But that 82% of let's call it 8.8 million people, that's significant, right? So everything within our community, everything within Metro Calgary, is going to be not impacted, but we'll see opportunity from that. More houses, more density, more retail support, to support the amenities that people need, right, the products and services that people demand, more schools, more health care. Yeah, you know more. You know highway construction. The ring road, the ring road, when it was built and finished was an absolute game changer for Calgary region, because you got this, you know, safe and efficient movement of people. It's very much amazing. And the foresight that Alberta transportation had with the planning and the construction of that ring road is truly amazing. And of course, there's a second ring road that's being planned. It's not really talked about. But there are elements of that that run through very, very strategic parts of the region. Oh, that would again, municipalities need to be shovel ready for. You know, the, I think the sweet spot that we're going to see, and this is probably a 30,000 foot view in the Calgary region, is the manufacturing that will come with reshoring. We're in a current geopolitical environment where we're going to see a lot of investment come back to North America. Now, how much of that growth the US takes, which it seems to be that's the direction that the current administration, the US is working on, is basically hoovering up as much of that opportunity for manufacturing in all sectors back to the US, but a certain amount of that may spill over into Canada, particularly within business friendly, tax friendly, demographically supportive jurisdictions like Alberta. We've got a very youthful workforce. We've got a very diversified workforce. We've got the urban centers that can accommodate manufacturing, and that goes hand in glove with transportation, royalty, logistics. We've got the supply chains that support that. So if you need to rail in raw materials or feedstock for whatever it is, you know, things you want to build, or things that you want to add value to, or things that you want to assemble, that's all going to happen within the Calgary region.
Bryndis 17:20
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I just want to go back to the ring road and how important that was in kind of adding to that development. Because you think of it, it's almost now that it's been open for six months to a year to more like it was always there. But the process before that was pretty big.
Dave 17:40
Yes, it takes extremely visionary people to pull off things like that. And I think the province has done that extremely well, and I think they continue to do that. Invest Alberta as an organization, I think is very quickly moving in that, in that very visionary leadership role as well. So hats off to the people at Invest Alberta for all of the work that they are doing and will be doing in what I've just described. Oh, completely. But if we didn't have that ring road in the Calgary region, it would be a whole different conversation. Very same with air service, right? Like the world class airport that we have at YYC Calgary, International. People don't realize how much Economic Opportunity actually creates for the region. Yeah, that said Spring Bank Airport on the west side, serves a very strategic role as well. And it's, I think, the fourth busiest airport in Canada, yeah, based on takeoffs and landings. Now they do have a flight school, or a couple flight schools out there, so you get a lot of you know, takeoffs and landing that takes place there. But for corporate air service, for the water bombers within our region, are based out of the airport, a lot of the chartered commercial flights that take place do happen out of Spring Bank. For example, some of the oil field companies that are in Fort McMurray, they fly the spring bank. So again, people don't realize that you've got not just one, but two. And as far as aerodromes go, like Transport Canada approves all current and future airports. De Havilland is an investment that's coming together quite nicely. They're looking at establishing a brand new airport, or east of Calgary that said there is the Beiseker Airport, which is a very historical location, and in this airport. So those are existing air drones that have been approved that I think are positioned well for some pretty strategic investment.
Speaker 1 19:38
Yeah, it's underutilized in some spots but also such a great market for others.
Dave 19:46
That's right. That's right. So these things happen often in the background, like we as consumers don't know what conversations are taking place, as far as that kind of growth and planning goes. But I think you know to understand, especially for leadership, to understand the strategic importance of companies like CN and CPKC, the role of Calgary International and the Van Horne Institute, of course, in its time, brought all of those voices together.
Bryndis 20:15
Yeah, it was a lot of fun that way.
Dave 20:16
There's probably an opportunity to re-engage that in the Calgary region to have leadership, you know, get together and do that same kind of work, but we'll, we'll have to see. And of course, I'm maybe nostalgic in saying that, but I just think that there's so much great work that happened within the Van Horn. You mentioned some of those studies that were done. Yeah, those are almost timeless in their quality and their depth and their information-
Bryndis 20:41
And the little pieces that you learn and nuggets within them too.
Dave 20:45
So absolutely, and the consultants that worked on those are largely still working in the sector, right? So it's not as if we can't give these people a call and say, Look, could we refresh some of that data, or what's changed from that period to bring, you know, sort of focused opportunity in very specific supply chain or logistics opportunities.
Bryndis 21:09
And well, in thinking of possibilities, when you look at the kind of your previous kind of work or and when you think of future ideas, is there anything that kind of pops up as the kind of more possibilities that you see?
Dave 21:23
More of the same. You know, I heard a futurist through West TAC. West TAC is another group Western Transportation Advisory Council that I really enjoyed and really got a lot of benefit from. They had a futurist speak, and the futurist, you know, gets asked, What's the future going to look like, right? And he very wisely said, it's gonna look a lot like what things look like today, right? And that's pretty interesting perspective, you know, like, we're, we're not necessarily going to be in flying cars, and we're not going to be eating out of, you know, like the the jets and kind of, you know-
Bryndis 21:58
Exactly, we're not there yet.
Dave 22:00
No, we still boil our water for our tea, and we still put our socks on one foot at a time, and we still drive our cars and all that kind of stuff. So I could see more of the same for Calgary region over the next, let's say over the next 20 years, right? More warehousing facilities, more investment in strategic infrastructure, supporting the ring road, or, you know, eventual development of the ring road, depending on, you know, what the province's priorities are. Because we know within Alberta, you've got so many hot spots of opportunity. The Edmonton region is doing extremely well. They've got the same kind of attributes that Calgary region has in a very, very different, very complimentary way. Yeah, you've got the bright lights across Alberta being, you know, Lethbridge region and Medicine Hat and Red Deer and Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray, and I would add Bonnyville Cold Lake. I've done work with Bonnyville Cold Lake lately, and they've got an amazing community up there, and it's very distinct from all others.
Bryndis 23:02
Yeah. Definitely is.
Dave 23:03
Yeah, yeah, yeah, very cool. And I bet you, if you asked a lot of people, a lot of Albertans, have you ever visited a Cold Lake, most of them probably have never visited the community. Yeah, it's amazing. It's an amazing place. Yeah, and the economic opportunities, um, the MD of GreenView, which is up in that, in that north west corner of the province. Opportunities there for natural resource development, particularly in natural gas, are absolutely amazing, right? So it's not just a Calgary region story. It's not just a metro Edmonton, you know, industrial heartland type of story. It's pretty much across the entire province.
Bryndis 23:41
Completely, even, you know, there's people we've worked with previously that have actually helped develop Hannah even, yes, so, yeah, sorry, yeah.
Dave 23:51
That Pallister region, absolutely. And again, you know, that's, that's the, you know, the other communities within Alberta, like Drayton Valley and Rocky Mountain House and Hanna and all of these communities, High Level, right? The full spectrum of Alberta. You know, a rising tide does raise all ships. When the Alberta economy is doing well, all communities benefit from that. I think our tax environment is a huge attraction. It's a huge part of that. But keeping in mind that these little communities like Oyen and Hanna, they want to maintain some population, to keep their schools open, keep retail and have, you know, a vibrant and growing community within their own right. And I think Alberta has done a good job. We could do more, I think, to support those rural communities outside of the urban areas. Yeah, that's probably another topic, a whole nother topic,
Bryndis 23:52
We could go into a long story, yeah.
Dave 23:55
But it's important to say, you know, I'm thinking about those communities. I'm thinking about those, those elected officials in places like going that say, yeah. You know, let's step up. Let's do some work. And they've done that to show what's special about their community and what economic opportunities exist. So hats off to those folks. And of course, folks like Walter Valentini, who has passed that did such amazing work for the Calgary region, yeah, went out to the Pallister region, and just continued to fire on all cylinders. So, you know, we've had some pretty amazing people, both you and I, that have, you know, been a part of our lives, that are no longer with us, that still have a legacy, which is pretty cool. Well, I'm pretty fortunate, so I might be blessed to say that we've had exposure to, you know, those kinds of things.
Bryndis 25:42
Exactly, and those great minds. And when you, you, we've kind of talked a little bit about it, just kind of off to the side. But one of the new developments kind of coming into the Calgary kind of region is the new Prairie Gateway, but maybe you want to talk a little bit of what you know about it, so as it being part of that development.
Dave 26:07
So what's interesting about Prairie Gateway is it's, from a municipal perspective, it's been a partnership between the city of Calgary and Rocky View County, and it's really good to see. And a very successful partnership in that Calgary has the utility capacity to serve that area. Cana construction with CPKC really led that initiative to get that business park established. Of course you know, keeping in mind that there is the CN logistics park just to the north, up in the corner chair, so, unlike any other jurisdiction in Western Canada, or any other jurisdiction in Canada, there are two world class inland ports, one being CN and one being CPKC. I think it's very progressive and very optimistic that both companies are investing in the Calgary region that way. Yeah, it's really good to see. And huge, huge amounts of land with that. So, you know, when I say about, you know, talk about more warehousing, more large footprint facilities. Those are ideal locations for that, right? And of course, having the infrastructure in place, having the transportation infrastructure in place. The power and gas on the east side of Calgary region is unmatched, like there are two hotspots within Alberta that have the best redundant power and the best capacity for energy. It's Joffrey, north of Red Deer and the Balzac area running down to, you know, Shepherd Conrich on the east side of Calgary. There's just so much power coming into Alberta through those regions, you've got lots and lots of backup, let's say, that allows for redundant systems that guarantee service right and capacity right. Like data centers, I think now is a fairly hot topic. They're not an old opportunity for the Calgary region, because there have been numerous data centers located in the Balzac area while I was there. But there's going to be more like, there's going to be more of that. And then, of course, there'll come a time where that'll be saturated, and that'll be that'll be complete, but high power users definitely have a place in Alberta. So yeah, the challenge is for those companies who require green energy, and I've had conversations with companies say, Well, what kind of green energy they want? Like, there's wind generated, there's solar, hydro is the best because it gives base load power capacity in a true green fashion. I consider gas fired cogen to be quite green, greener than coal. Okay, Europeans don't consider natural gas fired cogen to be green at all. So when those European companies come here and say, hey, we'd like to do this, but our portfolio requires us to have 100% green that really has to involve hydro, and in really large consumers that would have to involve hydro from British Columbia. So there is some power that does flow across boundaries. And, yeah, so, but then the other option, of course, is nuclear and small modular reactors. SMRs, there's a conference that is going on currently up in, I think, in Strathcona, where they're talking about small modular reactors and the opportunities for that.
Bryndis 29:25
So, yeah, there's so many different possibilities.
Dave 29:27
Oh, yeah, within our lifetime, over the next 20 years, we're going to see nuclear energy really be developed more in Canada. And of course, that gives base load power. It's a carbon free energy source, and we've got world class- The Saudi Arabia of uranium is northern Saskatchewan. And of course, that uranium resource doesn't end at the Saskatchewan border. It actually moves into Alberta as well. But absolutely fantastic uranium resources for U 308, and us six production. I'd like to see Uranium, Uranium fuel production within the country. That would be cool. And maybe that's something that could be done in Alberta, right with Saskatchewan uranium yellow cake that's mined, and rather than shipping it to wherever they ship it to to produce, you know, fuel rods for nuclear. It would be nice to see that opportunity for Alberta.
Bryndis 30:23
Well, and that almost becomes an interesting area where we can look at possibly, developing new supply chains totally in the future too.
Dave 30:32
Yeah, yeah, and being a world class leader on the world stage. Right? I think Canadians are very conservative, we're very humble people, and we often let others, you know, take credit for stuff that they shouldn't take credit for, or take opportunities that we should probably be taking ourselves. Right? One of the challenges, of course, is having the workforce and the skill sets to do that. But again, like I talked about, you know, the 8.8 projected population of Alberta, that skill set will come here, or we will grow that skill set, that workforce within our province fully to do all of these really cool, technologically impressive things, right? And I think just understanding the needs of infrastructure growth and transportation capacities and planning for the future, the way that our previous generation plan for things like the Calgary ring road will allow for that. But where are the future airports within Alberta going to be placed? Where ideally would we like to have small modular reactors for nuclear power production? Where will we be using and reusing water resources within Alberta, right? These are all questions, I think, that we can, you know, put our, put our mind to as a, as a community, as a people, and kind of say, okay, for a greener, greener future, and one that is very generating prosperity for all. These are the critical elements that you need. These are the ingredients in the cake that you need to bake a good cake. Yeah, right. Is there an active ingredient, like an egg or a leavening agent that's like the little secret component?
Bryndis 32:17
Yeah, what's the secret sauce?
Dave 32:19
Yeah, within our future that we need to. Those are the kinds of things I like to, kind of put my mind to. And yeah, we've seen it. When I came to Alberta in 2001 it was a very different place. And of course, with landowners, developers and brokers and really visionary people, 20 years of growth has been amazing. You know, the next 20 years of what I'm really excited about, you know, filling seven quarters of land at Calgary logistics park that CN has is only half of the story, because now you've got CPKC with Prairie Gateway, with probably an equivalent amount of land in a very complimentary way, right.
Bryndis 33:04
And they're complimentary. They're not competitive. They're complimentary,
Dave 33:07
Absolutely, absolutely. And so, you know, you know, it's not always competition. There's co-opetition, which is kind of a, you know, a nice way of saying that, you know, you can have collaborative development. You can have, you know, regional promotion, where both Edmonton region and Calgary region are promoting the province, you know, but in the same way that you know, having some of these other communities that you know, I mentioned: Medicine Hat, Red Deer, Lethbridge, Grande Prairie, also part of that story, part of that narrative conversation to then bring opportunity for not just job growth, but actual tax based growth, which has been a focus of mine for a long time, growing the commercial and industrial growing the linear assessment base within communities, I think, is very, very important. A lot of communities forget about that. They knock themselves out. You know, doing nothing but population growth without thinking about what are the businesses that you need to add to that? What is the commercial and industrial tax base you need to add to have a balanced tax base? Oh, yeah, right. And the magic number is 75:25 if you have 75% residential assessment and 25% of everything else, that's pretty good. But most communities, most urban centers in Alberta are 80:20, or 90:10, oh, and that's not sustainable. You know. So that's kind of the dirty little secret of economic development. You can grow your population growth, but you need to think of it in an assessment platform or an assessment ratio, in what growth, and this is what economic developers do. They bring in a non residential development industry, and even agriculture plays a role within that. One of course, value added agriculture leans into the industry side, but the linear taxation that you get through pipelines and rail lines and, you know, utility infrastructure. Are all made for, again, baking that cake, the secret ingredients for a successful economic development program in a community.
Bryndis 35:09
And when you look at a successful program in the past, or you think of various, you know, we've kind of hinted at a lot of different projects that you've worked on. But is there one or two where, as you go by, you're like, I had a part of that.
Dave 35:26
Oh, well, you know, Cross Iron Mills. Everyone's been to Cross Iron Mills. Yeah, that's the large regional retail destination located north of Calgary. Absolutely amazing people to work with. That's actually Ivan o Cambridge, which is the real estate arm of the QPP, the Quebec Pension. Okay, so people don't realize that's actually Quebec Pension money, okay, has come and invested in Alberta. And so, you know when, when people are, you know, sometimes sensitive to the national politics, and they say Albertans, you know, they don't like people from Quebec. That's not true, because Quebec brings a lot of investment to Alberta. CN Rail, yeah, two, $50 million at the time. It was CNS 'largest single investment in their inland port development. And of course, QPP, is part of that Ivan o Cambridge story, huh? So that mall is about 1.3 million square feet as well. So you know, 22 football fields to walk the inside of that mall is a mile and a half. So there's actually walking programs for new moms with strollers,
Bryndis 36:35
And the seniors, and you see them as they walk,
Dave 36:37
Yeah. And of course, the variety of retail that's in that area is amazing. So you've got Cross Iron Mills, and then you've got CrossIron Common, which is the stuff just outside of the Lazy Boy and the gas station across PetroCanada, Costco, busiest Costco in the Calgary region is up in that area. What Iron Oak Cambridge has done as of late is they flipped the switch, and all the remaining lands within that, that neighborhood, that area. So everything west of Dwight McClellan, which is the continuation of Metis trail, up to two, and south of 566, is now staged for investment, staged for development. Oh, and it's probably gonna at least double, I would say, Yeah. I would say at least double the tax base within that area, which just the investment of Iron Oak Cambridge alone, in CrossIron Mills is about a billion dollars, right? And you're in a world class location right off Highway 2, on and on. So think about what could go into those spaces, right? And what, yeah, Iron Oak Cambridge would want to see, and very much their network could bring to Alberta, as far as new retailers, hotels, entertainment and a unique product, industrial product that came out of Iron Oak Cambridge was businesses like Leon's, which is up in that area, and largest Leon's retail location in Alberta is in that area. And Lazy Boy, they've got a warehouse in the back and retail in the front. Okay, yeah, so it's, to me, a sort of groundbreaking, unique industrial product, where you've got not only retail that's taking advantage of, I used to know this number. It's like 1.9 million people a year or something visit CrossIron Mills, okay? And Chinook in Chinook center in Calgary is busier, no, pardon me, 9.3. So Chinook is over 10 million visitors a year, yeah? CrossIron Mills has about 9.3 million visitors a year. But then that spills over into the furniture and the restaurants and, of course, the racetrack and casino that's up in that area, yeah? But all of the different, yeah, oh, yeah. But that very unique warehouse and retail combination, I think, is a model for future growth in a location like that, you will have a full complement of warehousing logistics in combination with the retail.
Bryndis 39:05
And it also adds that possibility too. And I think, you know, previously, we might have talked about it where, you know, with, like Amazon, and then having, like a fulfill or like a fulfillment space, yep, kind of near in one of those facilities, because it's right by, you know, their distribution centers. So if you have, like, a rural address, you could always go to those areas.
Dave 39:27
Absolutely, absolutely and or, or niche entrepreneurs that will provide that service, yeah, to the folks that don't have product to deliver to them. And the more dense our population becomes within the area, the more opportunity will niche opportunities will come out of that within supply chain logistics, that the full spectrum of transportation logistics, from entrepreneurs to major corporations will prosper in Calgary region and the opportunity, identifying those opportunities and working with entrepreneurs to make those, those dreams a reality, is part of what I've done over the last 20 years. But the innovation, the brilliance of entrepreneurs, always continues to impress me, you know. And I think that, yeah, you know, that's gonna, that's gonna fit nicely in, in the Calgary region and Alberta overall.
Bryndis 40:21
Yeah, definitely. And when you look at kind of where we're going in the future, is there kind of something that piques your interest or makes you dream about-
Dave 40:30
I've had exposure to the Pacific Northwest, specifically in Prince Rupert, having the opportunity and the pleasure of getting to know the folks at Vancouver Port Authority, yeah, you know, and all the great people there that I've met that I've gotten to know. Even the port of Thunder Bay offers great opportunity, great capacity across western Canada, but seeing Alberta and our gateways to the international market, it's through Vancouver, through Prince Rupert, through Thunder Bay, maybe one day, through Churchill. Van Horn did some amazing work identifying port opportunities in Churchill, in Manitoba, friendly Manitoba, where I'm from. So I think that's an interesting thing for the future to say, Okay, how will Alberta move product through, you know, you and I talked briefly about, you know, Northern Gateway, a potential petroleum pipeline to be built along Yellowhead to Prince Ruper. Energy East is another huge opportunity for this country to move petroleum products out to the markets in Ontario, Quebec and, you Know, the East Coast. The fact that most energy that's consumed and processed, most crude oil that's processed in Eastern Canada, comes from very friendly, you know, or I should say, not so friendly jurisdictions, you know, Venezuela and Iran, yeah, you know Saudi Arabia. Former Premier Kenny used to talk about this, why would you be importing energy, crude oil from not so friendly jurisdictions? You know, Russian oil, who, in their right mind, will be processing Russian oil well, you can't, yeah, but that's the global energy market, right?
Bryndis 42:14
Or the fact that, you know, during the pandemic for Irving in New Brunswick, they actually had to take it from Vancouver, put it on a ship, get it through the Panama Canal, up, down and around.
Dave 42:27
Absolutely crazy, you know, and the carbon footprint of that alone, having to bring bulk crude from the West Coast to the East Coast- Energy East pipeline would have solved all that, right? The current situation that Canada is in with tariffs that just started today, I think so we can mark our line in the Senate. You know, I remember when we did this podcast on this day, it woke a lot of people up. It's caused Canadians to sit back and say, What could we do better? What can we do differently? How can we get along and work in partnership and harmony to bring opportunity to this country, right? I think that elected officials, it's a conversation long overdue that we get these national engagements built, even the highway network that we have, and again, the work that the Van Horne Institute did on the gold standard of highway infrastructure, Alberta is, without question, the gold standard for highway load corridors, for, you know, free flowing highways, like you see with ring roads and so on. That continues to a certain extent through Saskatchewan, but it certainly doesn't continue through into Manitoba and Ontario, especially the northern shield portions of Ontario.
Bryndis 43:45
Very much. So there's a lot of barriers there.
Dave 43:47
Yeah, and Van Horne has identified every single bottleneck, every single issue. So it's not as if we don't know what we're talking about, right? But the current situation that Canada is in has been a bit of a wake up call, which I think is a silver lining, right?
Bryndis 44:03
I think so too, which is good. I think we'll add extra diversification within our discussions and markets.
Dave 44:13
And then, you know, like, when, when countries in Europe or countries in Asia come to Canada for alternatives, for bulk energy, like compressed natural gas, propane, butane, methane, you know, finished petroleum products, raw materials for plastics, forestry products, grains and cereals, oil seeds, all those things the world needs. The world population is growing exponentially as well, right? Yeah, so it's not as if the world is not going to need natural gas, right? And politicians in the past have told foreign leaders, look, we don't have a business case for that now we do right, right? So I think there's just huge, huge amounts of opportunity to add value to some of our raw materials. The way the US does currently, and of course, the US is going to come back around. The US can't function without Canadian natural resources, without Canadian energy, without Canadian hydro, without Canadian integrated automotive, forestry products, water, anything to do with water. And when g3 came to Alberta. And g3 is a largely Saudi owned grain Company, and they invested in a inland grain terminal and loop track in just northeast of Calgary. Okay, right? And, you know, people wouldn't even realize, but no, the quote that I'd heard from an economist is grain is the substitute for water. When you think about that in a global context, that is profound, because instead of the country of Saudi Arabia, desalinating sea water to then grow grain in the desert, it's cheaper, more efficient and better just to source that grain from grain growing regions in the world, right? That is why g3 came to Western Canada, right? So g3 is probably one of the newest and most dynamic grain exporters to Saudi Arabia in the middle east of Canadian grain. But now they don't need to grow it in the Middle East.
Bryndis 46:17
Right, which is, yeah, better for the environment.
Dave 46:19
And I'm talking about the real middle Manitoba, right? Yeah. So, you know, you think of what, what it takes to grow grain, to grow, you know, a ton of grain, or barley or oats or canola or whatever. It's cheaper, easier, better, just to source that from world class locations like Argentina or like Australia, right, or Western Canada, right? And that's exactly what G3 has done. So a brilliant, brilliant move on their part. Now, what can we work on with G3 within their loop track to add value to that grain before it goes out, right? Can we process it into flour? Can we do finished products? Can we value add those materials and then ship that through the Port of Vancouver, right, or through Prince Rupert, or out through Thunder Bay. Or what have you,
Bryndis
Exactly. What are the extra pieces we could do.
Dave
Exactly, exactly, and the geopolitical contributions that we support by having high quality, sustainable food being supplied to the Middle East, right? You think of Canada's contribution to that geopolitical stability, it's huge, absolutely huge. So I think that's sort of the part of the supply chain logistics conversation that we should think about. And energy is another very geopolitically sensitive thing, as we've seen with Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine. Yes, you know, John McCain described Russia as a country masquerading as a gas station.It was the other way, a gas station masquerading as a country, right? Right? Because that's their only thing. That's their one trick pony, right? Yeah, and Canada can be part of the geopolitical solution to provide oil and natural gas to parts of the world that need it, right, right? Thereby relieving some of the pressure in the world, relieving some of the stress, right? That all that angst that people seem to be talking about these days.
Bryndis 48:17
Completely, yeah, because there's so many different areas, but it's even the construction of, you know, those gateways, the pipelines. It's amazing what that can just create alone. Yes, in economies like when we look at, you know, the development and you know, of the kinder, the kinder, formerly Kinder Morgan and TMX pipeline. And when you look at that, the extra development that was, you know, used for construction, you know, when the river and the flooding happened in BC, part of the reason the Coquihalla was able to be rebuilt as quickly as possible was because we were also building a pipeline. Yeah?
Dave 49:01
No kidding, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, and British Columbia is a very important piece of the puzzle when it comes to accessing markets for Alberta, right? Yes. Now it just so happens that a lot of British Columbia is mountain, mountain and mountain range, right? So it's, it's a lot to get stuff done in portions of British Columbia. What people don't maybe realize is that the route that takes you from Edmonton through Prince George, through Smithers and Terrace up to Rupert is actually much flatter than the route that you'd take from Vancouver through completely to Calgary, and the fellow actually another, another Van Horn story, yeah, so the Van Horne, Cornelius Van Horne, is that right? Cornelius, yeah. When he was establishing he was instrumental in establishing the city of Prince Rupert, found that that location versus Vancouver was actually preferable.
Bryndis 50:02
Yeah, I could see that with the access, yeah, yeah.
Dave 50:05
And Charles Hayes, who I think was part of that same investment group that fellow who founded the city of Prince Rupert actually died on the Titanic coming back. Oh, I think that's right. I should have verified that. But positioning Prince Rupert in those Frontier Days as a center, as a critical West Coast port for Canada, was a big part of that, and part of the advantage was that it's so much flatter moving through those mountain ranges, you know, West of the coast, from Prince George over to Rupert But to do an expansion of, you know, pipelines, like, if northern gate was to go through, now you've got another user, major user, within that right of way. And there are places where it's fairly tight, like along the Skeena River, second largest salmon producing River in British Columbia, next to the Fraser River. Okay, so I'm just a simple farm kid from Manitoba-
Bryndis 51:00
Who knows all about salmon fishing.
Dave 51:03
Do you know that the Skeena is a world class river system, you know, within British Columbia. And of course, that's very near and dear to the hearts of every community that's within that watershed, First Nations, of course, and all of the traditions that they bring. But with the Kinder Morgan Miner or the pipeline that was built most recently through to Vancouver or to, I think, to New West Westminster, it can be done. And the economic benefit that comes from that right can also be fairly strategic for the communities along the way and then the end users, like the city of Kitimat, right on the coast as well, has a fairly significant industrial capacity. Part of their history was the development of uranium or aluminum processing, right? Because British Columbia is probably one of the best locations in North America for hydro. So power is not only readily available, very much so fairly inexpensive. So Kitimat, in its history, owes its part of its story to basically that aluminum production that Alcan established in the 50s. Yeah, yeah, because of cheap, cheap hydro.
Bryndis 52:19
Just another kind of question. When you were looking at your career and you were giving advice to someone who was new into the industry, or looking at joining the industry, what advice would you give someone?
Dave 52:33
Ooh, that's a good question. Well, I did write a book a while back. A book called Rich for the Right Reasons. That was the second title that I came up with. The first was Economic Development of the Individual. So if I were to go back in time and meet the 25 year old version of me, that's what I would give me and say here, here's a book about your economic development as an individual, your prosperity as an individual. Yeah. But for a career, economic developers come from a lot of different backgrounds. You've got people that are former bankers, you know, former Community Development people. You've got a vast diverse collection of people who are economic developers, elected, you know, retired elected officials that have gotten into economic development. I would, you know, the opportunity to do the important work for communities, I think exists, creating shovel ready industrial sites, I think is a big part of that, if industrial indeed is part of a community's interest. But also, you know, supporting existing business communities and business Retention expansion, but it's always, it always has to be growing. There has to be some level of new construction, new development that then moves that non residential ratio up. So I think for young economic development professionals to understand that out of the gates and work with their elected officials to kind of make that happen, I think would be the advice that I would give. And then continuing education, I'm fortunate to have done my formal education and economic development through University of Waterloo. Also, Simon Fraser University in British Columbia has a Community Economic Development Program which is a little more grassroots, a little more community focused. And the University of Oklahoma has an amazing program for economic development professionals. So for anyone in in in the sector to do that, that training, to do that programming, I think is is important, because not only does it connect you with economic professionals from across North America, but it gives you a really strong foundation, a strong academic capacity to do, you know, what we do has been sort of what I've done, and I've been, you know, it's combination. It's luck and good fortune that I've ended up in Calgary region and spent, you know, 20 amazing years, you know, working on projects with some of the best developers and industrial brokers anywhere. So young economic developers networking to work with those people within their communities, I think would be a huge, huge advantage as well.
Bryndis 55:19
It would be, yeah, yeah.
Dave 55:21
Good question, though, yeah.
Bryndis 55:22
Well, the one thing I've really appreciated working with you over the years is you're a fountain of knowledge, but you're also a true champion of not only organizations and the community, but also of a whole bunch of different aspects.
Dave 55:43
And as are you Bryndis. It's like our paths cross, and then more than 10 years, you know, 15 years later, we're still getting together and having conversations, and, you know, talking about the amazing people that we know, right? So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm very appreciative and blessed to have you as part of my network. And, of course, all the people that you know and, yeah, it's a great time to be alive. Right, where we've got so much, so much going on, the pathways that people take, the journey that people have taken in their lives, and how we continue to keep in touch that I'd say is unique within a lot of professions. Don't have what we have with really close networks that we have that continue to do, you know, great work. So, yeah, it's pretty cool.
Bryndis 56:31
Well, I really appreciate all of your time today and more in the future. I think there's more to come.
Dave 56:37
Well, and thank you for having me on. This has been fun. We were thinking, you know, what are we going to talk about? And of course, an hour flies by.
Bryndis 56:44
And it really does, there's more we could have talked about.
Dave 56:47
Yeah, another hour we could solve all the world's problems
Bryndis 56:50
Exactly next time.
Dave 56:51
Awesome. Okay, thanks so much. You bet.
Bryndis 56:56
Thank you for listening to this Zebras to Apples podcast episode. I hope you enjoyed the showcase of the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. If you liked this episode, I would love it if you could give it a rating and review. For more information about this topic, you can go to zebrastoapples.com or follow Zebras to Apples on the social media platform of your choosing, whether that's Instagram, Facebook, TwitterX, BlueSky or LinkedIn. You can support the show on Patreon. Also check out the show notes below. Please join me again for another episode of Zebras to Apples. Have a wonderful day.