Essential Dynamics with Derek Hudson

What do you mean by "The Group"?

Show Notes

Derek is at derekhudson.ca. 
See full show notes at the Essential Dynamics Wiki.

What is Essential Dynamics with Derek Hudson?

Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!

Reed:

Welcome back to Essential Dynamics. I'm Reed McColm, your gorgeous host. And, yes, in answer to the many letters and inquiries we've received, that is me playing the guitar. I'm here with Derek Hudson, who is a business guru whose whose entire philosophy of business on essential dynamics has stirred this podcast. Derek, how are you?

Derek:

I'm fine, but for the last few episodes, I keep making a mental note to remind you that to not call me a guru. Oh, sorry. So now I'm just gonna do it on air. Okay. But but, you

Reed:

know I was just looking at you there in your ashram.

Derek:

No. Well, sure. Sure. So, you know, and I have been on the top of a mountain. So it's it's you know, I learned from from Ian Chisholm at Roy Group.

Derek:

He's a great guy. I learned from him that the word mentor is a gift word. You can't call yourself a mentor, but other people can say, you know, Derek's my mentor. And I think guru's kinda the same thing. I think I think so too.

Derek:

If anyone comes up and says, I'm a guru, they better be, like, in the right monkish order to be called a guru. Or if it's the business term, someone else has to give it to you.

Reed:

I say it with affection. So I

Derek:

I think your bar is low, but I accept, the sentiment. So thank you.

Reed:

Alright. Alright.

Derek:

I'm just a student of the life.

Reed:

Okay. Well, as a student of the life, we've been talking, Derek, about some of the quotes I wanted to pick up from you before was we've been talking about the individual and the group. In our people, path, and purpose exploration about essential dynamics, one thing we one quote we've come across is the individual at versus or the individual and the group. And I wanna know who the group is. Is it is the group the other people you're working with?

Derek:

So it is, but, you know, I just had this realization only just a few weeks ago as I was working through this that I think the group is a thing. And the group is not a bunch of people. It's its own entity. It's a separate entity. And I kinda wanna explore what that means because I think it can be really helpful if you think of the group as an entity that we as individuals have to have to deal with and respond to.

Reed:

Well, now it sounds like the title of the Stephen King novel. The group. The group. Are you saying it's a it's a force to be reckoned with on its own?

Derek:

Sure. So, you know, I've done some work recently with with companies. I think I mentioned this before. You know, owner manage companies that grow up over the years. And at some point, the owner realizes that the company is bigger than they are.

Derek:

I don't mean in size. I mean, because a company is this living entity that has the suppliers and the customers and employees and the money all kind of intertwined in this system that is you know, could survive without the owner and needs to be considered separate from the owner. And that was one of the ways that I came up with this idea. Purpose x and purpose y is the entity needs its own purpose. It needs to be recognized.

Derek:

So when I'm thinking about the individual and the group, before we said that as individuals, we have this inherent need to be true to ourselves, to be kind of, you know, our own per our own person to have personal autonomy. Or as my kids used to say, you know, you're not the boss of me. I'm the boss of you. Uh-huh. So there's that, but there's also this Did they say

Reed:

it to you? Or did they say it to their to their siblings?

Derek:

Oh, everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, this is this is an innate part of being human is recognizing that we have our own agency. And see it you know, you see it in that's why the terrible twos are the kid finally can verbalize, you know, his feelings, which are, you're not the boss of me.

Derek:

Mhmm. So so there's there's that part of it. But then on the other side, we we really wanna desperately belong to other people and we wanna belong to the group. And that's natural tension because the group doesn't want everything we have to offer as individuals. But but my my thinking of this group as a separate entity from the people, it is a few different ways.

Derek:

And, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if our if our production guru, Brin, jumps in on this. But if you think about a sports team

Reed:

A sports team? I think Brin has thought about a sports team.

Derek:

Yeah. I think he has. But, you know, a sports team over a period of a few years, the people come and go, but the team has a culture which endures beyond like, it it might have, you know, the same or a similar culture after a % change in the personnel. And so I think Rin's gonna talk about it.

Bryn:

I will jump in. I think that that's the most important part of a sports team beyond the talent. You know, you obviously have to get the talent going in the same direction. But the culture from inside the room, as they always like to say in sports, is is essential. If you don't have the right culture, it doesn't matter the talent.

Bryn:

And that and that's a great analogy as far as I'm concerned. I I don't wanna speak too much, but I totally totally see where you're going with that.

Derek:

Okay. So thank you, Britt. Now let me try another one. This just occurred to me, you know, we were talking about, Hawaii gate and how in the province of Alberta, government officials told us to stay home for Christmas, and and they didn't.

Reed:

Right. And in January, we found out that several many across Canada have gone. Politicians have spoken on both sides of their mouths. I've been shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

Derek:

So then then our mayor, Don Iverson, and I have no idea where he went for Christmas, but I'm pretty sure based on what he said that he was close to home. He said to the people of Edmonton, don't let that bad behavior take away your resolve to follow the restrictions so that we can beat this virus. And I think that's that was one of the ways that helped me understand that we can be loyal to the group or committed to the group when the other people in the group aren't.

Reed:

So if we're if we're When you say group, you're also including management. In this case, the politicians who told us to stay home in the first place.

Derek:

Sure. So, I mean, I'm gonna go further. I'm gonna say let's talk about a marriage. K? Oh.

Derek:

So a marriage is two people, you know, hopefully for a long, long time. So you could think about a marriage as the interaction of two individuals. So there's no group. There's just Yeah. Two individuals.

Derek:

Two individuals who are both saying, you're not the boss of me, which is true, But that creates, you know, a challenging dynamic where there's these, you know, contesting wills on different topics.

Reed:

And yet you both have to be in the same same area. You both have to agree on a process. If you're going to parent, you both have to agree on a way to do it.

Derek:

We need to When you said you both have to be in the same area so my wife and I are empty nesters. Uh-huh. Right before COVID, we went on a two week vacation. There were no restrictions at the time, which is now what we have to say. We came back on the day that you got locked down as you came back Mhmm.

Derek:

In March. And so then we were two weeks together, just passed on vacation. Two weeks locked down. Then when we came out, there was no place to go because everything was locked down. So for ten months now, my wife and I have been, you know, almost inseparable.

Derek:

So yeah. You know, that's a that's a different relationship than any other relationship that I have with anyone or ever had. But, you know, I was thinking about this. And if you think about the marriage is a group, and there are two individuals who, you know, are involved in the group, I can be loyal to the marriage even when the other party is harder and more complicated to relate to.

Reed:

That's really a good analogy. So the group is made up of individuals who still have their own autonomy. But you're talking about marriage as a as a concept, as you can be loyal to the group in this case. Yeah. I get that.

Derek:

So the idea that two people can come together and make something better is stronger than the the individual failings of each of the people.

Reed:

I relate to this. I something you said earlier, that people, that managers begin to think that the work is bigger than they are, if I may, may return to that for a thought. I I get that very much. It's one of the things to which I aspire when I'm directing or I'm actually in or producing a play or a a performance of some kind. And it it as well as my purpose x is to entertain, my purpose y is also to find that moment when it becomes it's an ethereal thing.

Reed:

I can't quite put my finger on it, but it becomes by everybody's putting it putting their efforts together, it becomes bigger than you are. Sure. And it's not just about me. And, that's a very fulfilling moment when everybody is working toward the same goal, and you have some success in achieving that. It's it becomes, its own its own entity, if you will.

Derek:

Sure. That's that's what I'm talking about. In in fact, there's a great book. We'll when we get a podcast page with show notes and links, we'll put the link in because I'm gonna butcher the guy's name. But, the author of the book is, I think, Mihaly, Chish Mihaly.

Derek:

And the book is called Flow.

Reed:

Yes. I do know that book.

Derek:

Yeah. And, that's what he talks about is that sort of time of peak performance.

Reed:

And just incidentally, Mihali, Chris Mihali is my stage name.

Derek:

Well, I can see why you picked that.

Reed:

Yeah. Thank you.

Derek:

So so that flow can happen as an individual, but it can also happen in a group. Fact, I think, generally, it's more powerful when it happens in a group because you look over and it's like, are you feeling what I'm feeling?

Reed:

Yeah. Yeah. It's I had a director once who would point to the point to his arm hairs.

Derek:

Yeah. And if they were

Reed:

standing up, he would that's all we had to say. Eventually, he would just point to his arm hairs. And if they were standing up, then we were doing well. Goosebumps. Goosebumps.

Derek:

So I think if you aspire to that kind of experience in a group, then you can deal with a lot of the limitations of all of the individuals. But if you're only doing the math of this person did this and that person did that, then your concept of what the group's capable of or or your commitment to respond to the group is way below its potential.

Reed:

Yeah.

Derek:

You know what? And I'm gonna go back to politics here for a second. You know, we saw that thing happen in The States with the election and stuff like that. What I think is gonna prevail is the commitment of the people of The United States Of America to the idea of The United States Of America. So the group will, will prevail.

Derek:

I I like that thought. I hope it's true. So if it's strong enough, then the idea of this collective, that's strong enough, then, you know, an individual, even one in you know, with a lot of power, you know, isn't as big a factor as you might think.

Reed:

That's actually strangely comforting somehow. Alright. Well, how do you how do you deal with individuals who are contrary or delivered for whatever their reasons are? Their purpose y is contrary to purpose x.

Derek:

So if if you're talking from a manager's point of view, bring have, you know, one of the points, which is that you create a culture that supports the thing that you're trying to accomplish. And then, you know, in my mind, you select people who can fit the culture. But that culture has to be accommodating to different styles or points of view if you want to have different kinds of people as part of your culture. So if you have you know, we're talking about that sort of base unit of marriage, guaranteed, you're gonna have two different people. Mhmm.

Derek:

If you're talking about a play, which I love that we can go back and forth on this, And you're only talking about the cast. Even the idea that's in the play is gonna there's gonna be conflict, which means you have to cast the parts, you know, from sort of different points of view, and you're probably gonna get individual actors who, you know, either can play that role or being typecast.

Reed:

Right.

Derek:

And so you've created conflict, your conflicting ideas within the culture of the player trying to do. Is that is that fair to say?

Reed:

Of course, it is. And that's what you try to work out in rehearsal is both bring up the conflict, address the conflict, and then suppress the conflict. So

Derek:

and I I meant, is that something that you use? Like, the Of course, it is.

Reed:

I what I just said, I just that's my it's a personal philosophy. It's not one that I've I've learned. But I Martin Landau, the Accra Academy Award winning actor, used to say his definition of of, method acting was to, study study the emotions, feel the emotions, suppress the emotions. And that was his definition of method acting, and I I have always loved that. So that's what I'm I'm paraphrasing there.

Derek:

So say it again from a director's point of view.

Reed:

Study the conflict, feel the conflict, suppress the conflict because that's our natural what I've learned about crying on stage, for instance, is that, people don't naturally cry in public very often. And you get more emotional response from an audience when you are doing your devil best to not cry, and they get that. I think that's that's playing the opposite. And if we wanna go into that, we will, in another podcast. But right now, you're just learning how to be a director, and I'm pretty sure that you're almost ready.

Derek:

This is crazy. I never intended for that to happen, but I'm I'm under your tutelage, so thank you.

Reed:

Well, I hope I hope Nicole is listening too. So

Derek:

taking these ideas, what you just said, into a management setting, When you talk about suppress the conflict, you know, it's not a good idea to bury this stuff and not deal with it. But, you know, where I'm coming from in terms of this idea of working with creative people who have this innate desire to express themselves individually is if you're making something that needs standardization or compliance with standard procedures, Let's lay out all of our issues with this the process the way it is. Now we're gonna standardize it. So that's to suppress the conflict, and we're gonna do it the way that we've all agreed.

Reed:

Yeah.

Derek:

And we got a project on the side to figure out what version two looks like.

Reed:

So I wanna Yeah.

Derek:

I wanna take all the creativity into the improvement effort, but I don't want freelancing on the shop floor because, you know, tab a won't fit into slot b. Right. So I need standardization. And that's one thing that I learned in manufacturing when I was at MicroLine was don't waste your creativity on reinventing all the stuff that you've already learned. So if this is the state of the art, let's run it.

Derek:

But now we're gonna apply all our creativity to what version two is, but we're not gonna infect the the current operations with it until we've proven it. So now there's different different kinds of people where some people, you know, love working in the world of compliance and standard procedures. I'm not one of them, but I value that. And then there are other people who really just wanna be bouncing around the room.

Reed:

Right.

Derek:

And so going back to the theater, you cast those people in different roles. Right.

Reed:

Right. And there is go ahead. It's it's incumbent upon a director to also both utilize those talents that you see in the room, but also control them in in the basis of in the concept of the group.

Derek:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, we talked about flow, and I think we should finish. We've finished on flow. Okay.

Derek:

Because we, you know, we talked about the group being a separate entity. And I've had this experience in team sports and on projects and and other things is when everyone's doing their best, you know, their individual best, their whole their whole contribution's in there. It's different from other people's, but it all fits together. That's when you get flow. I know.

Derek:

And that's when that's when people are passing behind their back without looking and someone else is picking it up, and and you can't explain it. It's just it's just there. And K. That's a that's a fantastic place to get to, and that's better than just being the boss of me.

Reed:

That's really well said, Derek. I sir, I really relate. Particularly, you remind me of my years in professional hockey when I played during the Gretzky years. But let's save that for another podcast. Right now, Derek, where can they reach you if they need to if they wanna say something to you?

Derek:

Easy to find me on the web. It's Derek Hudson dot c I look forward to hearing from people.

Reed:

I hope we do. And until then, consider your quests.