Ramli "RJ" John [00:00:00]:
There will be some months where like you didn't get any sales calls and the tendency in your mind is like, freak out. It's like, oh my goodness, everything's falling apart. This guy, this guy is falling. Making sure that's part of the process and it's part of the journey as well. And like, if you keep doing the right things in terms of like generating pipeline, as long as you're working through that and not waiting until the end would be super valuable.
Nick Bennett [00:00:30]:
Hey listener. Welcome to 1,000 Routes. I'm your host, Nick Bennett. In each episode we explore the uncommon paths of solopreneurs who have bet on themselves and the reality of what it takes to build a business that serves your life. And if you want to change your own route, you can check out Full Stack Solopreneur, our 90 day group coaching program that has helped dozens build clear, compelling offers that you can market and sell with confidence. You can join now at fullstacksolo.com that's Full Stack S O L O dot com. Enjoy the episode.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:01:03]:
My name is Ramli John. I'm the founder of Delight Path.
Nick Bennett [00:01:06]:
I first heard about you through your Product-Led Growth book with Wes Bush. And I'm curious, how did you get connected with Wes and get that book together?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:01:14]:
Wes Bush. This is a really small world kind of story. We actually went to the same school but like almost eight to 10 years apart. So we went to University of Waterloo here in Canada. He's trying to start his growth agency. At some point I was working in growth in house and he reached out cold, reached out on LinkedIn, said hey, you're doing growth, would love to chat. We chatted, stayed in touch and I see he's doing Product-Led Growth. At that point I was doing growth and more focused on onboarding and I was googling and I found his name.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:01:47]:
He was talking about onboarding because for a lot of Product-Led Growth folks, especially when a company is like looking at introducing ProductLed, one of the first starting problems they try to fix is how do we get our free users to experience the value of our product without any sales team. And that's when I found him and we reached out again and we started collabing on some live courses and I ended up working with him for about a year at his company ProductLed worked with onboarding and found out there wasn't any book covering onboarding or ProductLed onboarding and ended up writing that with him. So that's a kind of small world story that we both ended up studying at the Same school. And I was there 10 years ago and he was finishing up. So that's how we connected.
Nick Bennett [00:02:37]:
So you guys end up co authoring the book together and because the book came out June 21st.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:02:45]:
Yeah. Wow, that's great.
Nick Bennett [00:02:48]:
So the book came out and you were in house this whole time after you had left, working directly for ProductLed as their managing director. And then the book comes out, you're doing this and then you're working for a few different companies. What was the turning point for you? It's kind of an interesting. Like generally what I. You see people do a more the most traditional thing is like they go out on their own, then they go write a book. Yeah, you wrote a book with somebody and then a couple years later you decide it's time to go on your own. So what was the turning point for you and did that book give you some momentum?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:03:19]:
I've never been asked this question. Like usually people launch a book and then that kind of propels them into solo consulting thing. I wrote this while I was working with Wes at ProductLed. Ended up going in house. After six months, like 2022, I joined Appcues in house. And I think that's a really great observation that I wrote this book. The reason why I wrote this book, I saw a gap in the market, but it was one of my life goals. I always wanted to write a book.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:03:43]:
I know when we connected before this recording, we were chatting like one of the mistakes that you want to avoid when writing a book. It's so much effort and time. It's like you don't want to write the wrong book. And I was like, what book do I want to write about? And I knew I wanted to be known for something. And onboarding was a gap that I saw in the market. I wrote it and that's why I wrote it. Not necessarily to procure all my consulting, which is a different case now where I'm in house. The reason why I joined in house, just life circumstances where my first kid was coming.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:04:13]:
I wanted a little bit of security in life. There are some health insurance. Even in Canada, having some employer funded life insurance or health insurance helped a ton with hospital bills and things like that. And that was in the back of my mind. It was like I need a little bit of security and didn't want to put my family at that. Now my kid is three, two and a half, three years old. And it's a different story with this new book where it is way for me to push the business forward and almost like a business card for people to know, like, I'm back in the market and people can hire me for this specific thing, which is around onboarding.
Nick Bennett [00:04:48]:
So what was the turning point for you though, that you were like, okay, I'm done with app cues. Yeah, it's time to do this on my own versus just stick it out. I mean, it's arguably the much easier thing to do.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:05:01]:
It was a lot of things that I knew I wanted to go back out. I think that was one thing that was in the back of my mind. I was setting up myself, I was talking to other solo consultants and I knew my kid Zane was already at some point in his age and everything aligned when the first client came. And there were some things happening in the job market world where like, people were being laid off and then the understanding that things are a little bit more secure than it was before. In my family, I think there's a little bit more sense of security rather than my job is like unsecure. You know, I'm going out into this world doing this thing that I'm doing by myself as a solopreneur and I have this kind of rock and foundation with my family that I know there's a little bit more security there that financially as well as relationship wise, I think that was in the back of my mind that it's. It's the right time as well.
Nick Bennett [00:05:55]:
Dude, I think this is the part about doing this work that no one really thinks about. Like, it's easy. People look at you and say, look at this guy. He's got a book with Wes Bush. He's run PLG and run growth for all these crazy big name companies. And yet no matter where you are, no matter what level of success any of us have achieved, we all still feel the same thing, which is like, is it really gonna work? Like, I talk with people at all different stages of this thing and it's the same thing over and over again. This isn't like a referendum or a bad thing at all. Like, this is the reality of it is like, we're all a little scared.
Nick Bennett [00:06:33]:
We're all like a little bit on the edge of like, it's still risky no matter what level of success you achieve. It's just the way it is. So how's it been? Let's just talk through that, right? How has it been? Delight Path, first of all, is a sweet offer. As a fan of offers, I absolutely love it. And what you, what you have there, the branding is sweet. The hat, Love it, Like, all about it. So, like how have things been? Right. I think we all have this sense of hesitation about going into it.
Nick Bennett [00:07:00]:
And then there's like, okay, well, we do the thing. What was the first moment where you felt like, hey, this thing could actually work?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:07:06]:
Yeah. I would say first of all, that is true. I think like when people, when I announced like, hey, I'm going to do this, people are like, oh, obviously you're going to do this. You have an audience, you have a book. There's still risk, of course, right? Like there's a lot of things in the economy that's happening that could affect getting clients. And two to three years ago there was like the whole things happening with interest rates where a lot of companies in SaaS was like, like doing layoffs and they're shutting down. So there's definitely a lot of risk there. For me, it was really knowing that I, first of all, I had a little bit of cushion with saving up a little bit of a Runway.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:07:45]:
So I started thinking about this as a startup. Okay. So like if I made zero money for the next few months, like I could survive for eight to 12 months. Right. So that was in the back of my mind.
Nick Bennett [00:07:56]:
That helps. Yeah, sure.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:07:58]:
That's definitely helped like six if we cut back. And like the way that it happened with my company with Appcues is they were kind enough to give me a chance to lay off. So in Canada they have employment insurance. So I also had access to this funding from the government while I'm building out my business. And really like, obviously getting the first client was a really great sense of validation that, you know the offer works. Like when you put out an offer, right. The only true sense of validation is like, will people like respond to it and buy it, especially if it's a high ticket offer? Like that would also help a little bit. Was prior to jumping ahead first, I was teaching a live cohort course through Maven.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:08:41]:
So I was like, I knew I can run that run again, which I did. I ended up running another cohort with Maven. When people think about Maven, Maven's like this cohort based platform. You still have to do a lot of marketing. So I had, thankfully I had like an email list that I was nurturing and they, they joined that course in October. Ended up closing my first client at the end of November. So I left beginning of October. Say it was like a few weeks.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:09:06]:
I had to learn a lot of skills like doing sales calls. I've never.
Nick Bennett [00:09:10]:
That's the biggest thing for people. They always go like. Because I also Talk with a lot of marketers, and they're like, I had to learn how to do sales. And holy shit, it opened my eyes. Yeah, I did.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:09:21]:
I knew I needed to learn that because it's part of being a great entrepreneur. I think they know sales, and especially with a high, higher ticket offer, there was three skills I knew I needed to nail. Right. I actually wrote this down like any other skills I don't need. I'll figure that out later. First definitely was like, pipeline generation. The second was, like closing the sales, like the sales process. And the third was value delivery, so delivering the client and delivering that wall.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:09:47]:
And I knew out of those three, the weakest one I had was sales. I knew I had an audience to generate Pipeline and knew I can deliver the goods. But for me, that was the riskiest. Like, how do I get this? So thankfully, I connected with some folks, helped out with that, and read some books around it as well.
Nick Bennett [00:10:05]:
I love that you broke this down by skill base. I tend to think about these things in the same way, so I want to go through these, though. So you said the first one was like, pipeline generation. How'd you fill the pipeline?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:10:16]:
Yeah, Pipeline was mainly my list and LinkedIn. I think that was it. My first client, I found, I was doing a co webinar with guys, you know, Fletch. We did a co webinar together. Fletch PMM guys, they audited somebody's messaging on their site, and I started their. Their onboarding. And one of the person who attended was working at a big company who ended up becoming my first client.
Nick Bennett [00:10:39]:
I think Fletch gets more honorable mentions on this show than any other. Any other company or just like, group of people. They're like the prototype. I think we all look at them and it's like, they nailed it.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:10:51]:
Cool.
Nick Bennett [00:10:52]:
So pipeline generation, LinkedIn, hit the list. And then you. You said running the sales process. How did you figure that out?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:11:00]:
Yeah, I connected with some folks. One of them, obviously, I. I talked to, like, maybe 20 or 30 solo consultants, like Andrew Capland, some of our good friends together, Brandon Hufford. And I just asked him, like, how do you guys run your sale? Do you have a sales process? What do you script? And I, I took that on. I was like, I started adopting, like, okay, here's the questions I asked during the discovery. You're really focused on trying to understand the problem rather than just telling them, here's what I do more like, okay, what is your problem? What is your challenges? What are the KPIs that's impacting. Kind of like that problem discovery. I also read a great book, Serve Don’t Sell by John Meese.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:11:40]:
It was like, okay, this is good. It's approaching the same thing. And then Andrew Capland was like, you should read The Coaching Habit. It's about coaching people. But like, it's how he runs his sales call, like, asking them, okay, what's on your mind kind of thing. So those kind of couple of books was like, okay, now I gotta, like, put this all together and ask the right kind of questions to kind of offer and thing a mistake that I. That may be more of a personal thing where obviously there's somebody on the call that I feel like it's not a great fit. And it's hard for me to say no.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:12:13]:
So it's something that I'm still learning like, no to, like, you're not a good fit. Or it's like more like, hey, I ended up for a couple, two or three prospects. I ended up sending a proposal. Thankfully, they said they didn't have the budget, but in my mind was like, I'm hoping they don't say yes. I'm hoping that they don't accept this proposal. And my wife, like, why did I send this proposal? And now I'm more judicious about, like, yeah, this is not a good fit. I would suggest this. Like, the reason example is starting a company.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:12:43]:
They're obviously having positioning problems and messaging on their home. They can't describe what they do.
Nick Bennett [00:12:48]:
Right.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:12:49]:
It's like a guy. I say, I'm straight up. I don't. That not my expertise. I suggest you once again, Dr. Fletch, let me make an intro to them because we have a similar offer. The way we approach is similar. It's funny enough, my first client, they were a Fletch customer.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:13:06]:
And they're like, I just told them we have a similar process. And they're like, okay, that's good. And then that made them feel comfortable that it's gonna close really well. So, yeah, it was a learning process. It was like me trying to figure out stuff. And I knew to talk to the right people and fight it out.
Nick Bennett [00:13:21]:
The tough thing about the sales process, especially in the early days that I found is. And Andrew said this to me, and I can't unhear it, which is like. Because it's so simple the way that he said it. Money is better than no money. Like, and in our case, you're in the similar, like, same stage of life with the same stage. Like small, tiny humans.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:13:44]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:13:44]:
They run your household like diapers are better than no diapers. And so you're like, you feel this tension, which is send the proposal because you need to build this business. And there's something about, you know that they're not a great fit, but you also haven't run the play necessarily like on your own in this way. You haven't. Like I always tell my clients, I'm like, the only way you're going to find out who a good, like, find out what a good fit client is is to take on a bunch of bad fit clients. I mean, there's a bunch of red flags in the sales process where if it's very obviously the wrong person, but there's like a lot of more like deeper underlying things that come up after someone signs that you can screen for, but you don't necessarily know to screen for.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:14:28]:
Right.
Nick Bennett [00:14:29]:
And so there's just tension there. And I think the thing that you're pointing out is one, you will. You just went on, asked for, asked for help. Like you just talked to a bunch of people. One another thing that not enough people, dude, they tend to just try and figure it out themselves. Trial and error more than anything else. And then on the other end of it, it is, you recognize that they were a bad fit in the first place. And now, granted, you still set the proposal, but hey, money's rather than no money.
Nick Bennett [00:14:55]:
Good thing they didn't sign. But like you did you realize it earlier on, like, I think it took me way longer than I want to admit to start dqing people because it doesn't feel good to say no either way. Right?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:15:09]:
That's so true. Yeah. Sometimes I spend too much time. Like, first of all, I love that quote, money is better than money.
Nick Bennett [00:15:17]:
Yeah, right.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:15:19]:
It's so simple. But it's. You're right, it's profound. I think the other thing is, like, it's so important to try to figure out that those bad fit, you know, just try to pick up those kind of cues. I don't know, it's like a. A gut check thing. Well, based on past experience, this is not good fit. Or they're a smaller company where they obviously don't know who their customer is or they don't know their messaging, they don't understand their own product and how to describe it.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:15:46]:
And even if I'm confused, then maybe their customer is confused too, which that's going to be a challenge.
Nick Bennett [00:15:52]:
So you've been running this play for six months now, have a few initial customers. Was your engagement model always super heavily productized? I think one of the things that people struggle with and some things that I'm trying to work out all the time, which is like retainer model, ongoing engagement model, heavily productized, like ruthless with your scope. Like, where do you draw the line? So how did you decide on your engagement model and kind of land on something that you felt like worked for you?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:16:20]:
Yeah, I was trying to assess where this is me having enough time to plan this out. Trying to assess what I enjoy the most. Like what kind of things give me energy. I identified three things that give me a ton of energy. I enjoy building things not necessarily like physical, but like sketching or putting something together, like an onboarding design. It's like, oh, this is cool. Seeing the final product of it. Like I'm playing with Lego, like digital lego.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:16:47]:
I also like connecting with people. And then the third thing is I love teaching, like, I love educating. And I was like for six months, I was like, how do I put this all together so that it makes sense so that I'm not like what you mentioned, like where I'm coming in and hey, pick my brain for an hour for me. Like, that's to me, that's nerve wracking. That reduces my energy a ton more. Like, oh, for an hour you get two, two hours. And this is a lot of advisory model where for two hours you get to pick my brain, ask any questions. Like, for me, I'd rather use an advance.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:17:20]:
And I workshop through it, teach something. So that's when I've started looking around. I was really. The first model I really appreciated was April Dunford's model where like she comes in three days, she does her workshop, she teaches people the company or kind of, kind of picks apart and breaks apart their messaging, their positioning. And then after 85,000 three days later, she's out, she's done and out. And I was like, that's really good. I kind of like that. And then we came across Fletch and I was like, oh, they have an interesting model.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:17:53]:
And I've kind of structured it because they had a workshop. And they were about to work with Appcues at some point around messaging. And that's when I really came across their process where they shared a video. Here's what we do. We run through this workshop. It's like, oh, cool. They jump into figma. I love figma, figjam and kind of like workshop to his ideas.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:18:13]:
And that's when I kind of landed on this product that I service where if it works for messaging, I think I can make it work for Onboarding, which that's been my approach so far as well. So that's what really was something that I was thinking a lot about as well. The other thing that gives me, I guess a ton of energy as well is like thinking about like, do I want to be working with a company short term or long term? And I'm still trying to find the balance with that. I find like getting in, fixing something and getting out, it's like, wow, okay, I'm done, I'm good versus getting in and sticking around for many months. Now it's starting to feel, and this is a conversation we had last week where it's starting to feel like I'm trading my, my time for money. Where like now I feel a little bit like I'm semi employee, but not necessarily, but like a highly paid consultant that is like on the roster essentially. It's like, oh, can you take a look at this? Which is I'm starting to find a balance where short term you get the money and then you get out, get you fix it, whatever problem there is versus retainer obviously is, quote unquote, less risky because you're ongoing with them, you don't have to hunt for a new client and they already trust you. But in that sense, like how do you productize those longer term engagement is something that I know and you told me to look at what Brendan Hufford is doing, which is like, oh, that's cool.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:19:30]:
Like where it's outcome based, which short answer to your question, I'm still figuring it out. But like I really wanted try to package something that kind of gave me a kind of energy rather than drained it.
Nick Bennett [00:19:41]:
Yeah, Brendan's model is fantastic.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:19:43]:
Right?
Nick Bennett [00:19:44]:
The Growth Sprint model is, I think it solves for a lot of the things, like many of the friction points of a highly productized short term engagement versus a retainer based model. I think he's found a great sweet spot there. The thing that we all tend to struggle with is with the retainer model, like you said, you just get pushed down the value ladder and now they're just kind of like, hey, like onboarding guy, can you go look at this thing for me? Versus like as the relationship goes on, but it's, it's more stable and like, where's the right blend versus you're constantly having to backfill clients if you're doing short term, highly productized short term engagements. So I don't know if there's, there's no like perfect mix because. Okay. To just keep the Fletch model going, it's like they have the volume.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:20:38]:
They do.
Nick Bennett [00:20:39]:
Yeah, they have the volume period. That's it.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:20:41]:
So they got the pipeline side fix.
Nick Bennett [00:20:43]:
Exactly it.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:20:44]:
Pipeline. And you can do short term delivery and like get in, get out. They don't do any kind of retainers or they don't do any kind of implementation work.
Nick Bennett [00:20:53]:
Right. So for the majority of people, regular people like us, it's like you do the short term engagement, that's like what we would call your tripwire offer. And then they go in and say, we can work together on an ongoing basis to implement this thing. And yes, my friend Chris Moore always talks about this, which is our need to be liked oftentimes overcomes our ability to generate an outcome for our clients. So like, you fall into the friend zone the longer you've been with a client.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:21:24]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:21:25]:
The more time you spend with them. It's like you, you end up bullshitting with them about life and about everything else, which is not bad. It's not to say don't build a rapport with your clients, but. Right. All of a sudden it is too personal in a, in a bad way. And it's, it's way more about like an interpersonal relationship than it is about, hey, what are we here to do? Yeah, that's a tough place to be. And it's tough to claw your way out of the friend zone and to maintain a more authoritative place in their mind.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:21:56]:
There's a ton more scope creep the longer the engagement grows. Or like if you, you promise them X number of hours like you do, you log that, you're like, oh, you're already over hours. Should I say, sorry, I'm not available anymore versus now you going talking about friend zone where like a friend wouldn't do that to a friend.
Nick Bennett [00:22:14]:
You know, we've been working together for, for a year now and I've only ever gone over once, like, am I really.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:22:20]:
Yeah, exactly.
Nick Bennett [00:22:20]:
All those little things really start to add up. It's a big difference when, when you talk about like maintaining that level over the long term. I'm a big believer in the programmatic approach and I think that's one of the things I see with your, your model is a much more programmatic approach to interfacing with you, to engaging with you. And I think it gives you that leverage that you're looking for. So I'm curious, where did the Eureka Model, how did you kind of come up with that and how's that making a difference on what you're doing right now?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:22:51]:
The three, three step model, establishing the team doing the workshop, it puts all the things that I find that gives me a ton of energy all together. Where I start off with an onboarding audit workshop, break that down with their team trying to understand their user, mapping out their journey. And then me going away and then another thing that gets me, manager building, start building, like putting together, like pieces in a Figma file and like, design in this and then coming back after two to three weeks and kind of presenting this in a more Q and A fashion. But it's very structured, so it's not like, oh, Ramli, what do you think about this? What do you think about it? No, it's me like, telling them, like, here's what I think it should look like and the approach that it should be. To your point, it's really, first of all, set the expectation of, like, how long it will take, but also what they'll get. And as well as knowing, like, this is the time frame and you know, exactly what I'm doing when versus other things where, like, you might not necessarily be clear and transparent across all those things. And it's definitely shorter. So it's given a lot of transparency in terms of, like, what they could expect.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:23:55]:
That as well. Something that I've been thinking a lot about and once again, what you mentioned to me last week, still fresh on my mind, of, like, how do I communicate that more clearly on. On the site? Like, how do I communicate that? Here's what you'll get, here's the timeframe. Here's exactly what I'll be doing, what you'll be doing. And putting that all together is something that I've been definitely thinking a lot about for that model.
Nick Bennett [00:24:18]:
I've been describing it in this way and I think it's been helping, which is it's like, how do we structure this information? How do we communicate this information in a structured way? Yeah, so it's easy to understand. It's like some people feel a type of way about if it's too canned, then it's like, well, it's not authentic or whatever. And it's like, well, no, if it's not canned enough, it's hard to get. Yeah, like, the structure is what makes it easy for people to understand. The more times you say a thing, the more clearly you'll be able to communicate it.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:24:53]:
And it also makes it easier to buy. I think it's like, I know exactly what I'm buying. Like, rather than, am I buying your time? Am I buying your. This, this is what I'm getting. I'm I'm going to. This is the. The output, and here's the timeframe, the expectation, and all of that. And it makes it, like, super for me.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:25:11]:
It's easier for me to know what I'm gonna get and how I'm gonna get it. That makes me feel more comfortable if I was gonna pay for something.
Nick Bennett [00:25:18]:
I cannot stress this enough. I am so happy. Raza. So this is something that I've experienced, and I'm curious if you've experienced this too. In the early days, there's just some people who are excited to work with you, and they don't ask a ton of questions, and they're just like, all right, cool. Like, we're excited to get started. Like, send me this stuff. Let's get going.
Nick Bennett [00:25:36]:
And you're. Everyone's all excited. You got happy years. They want to give you money because money's better than no money. All this good stuff. And then, like, the client engagement, it doesn't go the way you want it to. And it's like, well, where the hell did things go wrong? That happened to me a couple times early on. I was like, why does this keep happening? Like, what am I doing wrong here? And I realized that the people who are most excited to work with you, right, they don't ask a ton of questions about how you're gonna do the thing.
Nick Bennett [00:26:06]:
So if you don't make it a point to be like, here's what we're going to do, here's how we're going to do it, and here's what the engagement's going to look like. I call this idea the sales cascade. It's like, if you don't cascade them down, explain it to them and explicitly, explicitly, just lay it out. They're going to show up and be like, okay, so when are you going to get into our onboarding stuff and do all the work? And you're like, hold on, like, I'm going to give you the plan, I'm going to audit the thing, give you the plan. And they're like, oh, I thought you were going to do it, or whatever the thing is. And you're looking at them like, how did this go so horribly wrong? Like, how were their expectations? So way off.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:26:45]:
It's so true. Assumption kills. Like, when you have, like, oh, yeah. When you don't clear your state up front, like, what are your assumptions? And this is what.
Nick Bennett [00:26:53]:
Or they'll make it up.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:26:54]:
Yeah, they'll make it up. They'll have, like, an expectation in their mind of like, okay, this is what I think I'm getting. And if it doesn't match with what they get, then they'll be like, what the heck? What's happening?
Nick Bennett [00:27:05]:
Yeah. And this is a hard thing to try and deploy because you feel like you're hitting the brakes on a sale that has a ton of momentum.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:27:13]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:27:13]:
But if you don't do it, if you're not like, okay, here's how this works and spell it out for em. You're setting yourself up for a really shitty client experience. And it's like, I cannot stress that enough. So it is to the earlier point too. It's like having that stuff structured and easy to explain is going to expedite the sales process. Because a lot of times people too, people look at you and they go, all right, so what do you do? Exactly? What's the thing? Just tell me, what are you doing? What are you going to do? And if you dance around it, it takes you forever to explain it. Like, if you can't even explain what you're going to do, there's very little trust in your competence of being able to do it.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:27:53]:
Yeah, that's true. On the other hand, accelerates the process, but it also accelerates them figuring out that this is not the right fit. I think that's also a good outcome for a prospect to say, hey, I don't think you're the right person to do this because you don't do this. Which is like, good, because now if you're expecting me to do that and I don't do it, it's going to be a problem versus, I think it being upfront, like them saying, okay, I need you, I actually need you to write emails, which I don't do. Which, which in that case would make it easier for them to know that right up front rather than for them going along the sales process and maybe becoming a client and like, oh, when are you going to write the emails? Like, I don't.
Nick Bennett [00:28:33]:
What emails? What are you talking about? This is why I'm so big on the approach and why I love the Eureka method in this book that you're publishing. Because even being niched into a problem like you are, which is leaky product onboarding, even something that's that specific. There's very few people, if any, other people out there who will help solve that specific point problem for people, even if there are, you are still a categorically different choice because anyone who does it is going to do the thing their way.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:29:05]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:29:05]:
And you are going to, like, if you want what they have, go get it? I use this model, it's called Eureka. And I'm going to fix your leaky product onboarding using this model. And if you want this model, if you agree with this approach, then this is for you. It's like there's no comparison. Now, this is a choice that all buyers will face. It's very straightforward and it takes a lot of the guesswork out. And half the battle is just being able to say that to a buyer, too. And I'll say, look, we're looking at this other person who can help us do this thing.
Nick Bennett [00:29:35]:
You're like, great. Like, go ahead. You're going to find that we're completely different.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:29:40]:
Yeah. No, I love that. I think it just makes it easier for them to know, once again, to know what to expect and what not to expect, specifically for why they're going to work with you or not.
Nick Bennett [00:29:50]:
So what's up with the book? So I know you're 40,000 words deep into this thing. I saw you rapid scrolling through it on LinkedIn the other day. You've been giving out a couple of free copies. Early, early feedback seems wild. I've been reading some of these testimonials and the stuff that people are saying about it is awesome. So, like, talk to me a little bit about your. How long have you been at it with this book and when is it coming out? Like, what's going on with it?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:30:12]:
Yeah, I've been at it for maybe three or four months. I know that seems short, but it was me heads down for like a month. So essentially just trying to figure this out and write that. It's my second book. And I was like, oh, my goodness, this is going to be so easy. I'm going to write it. I'm going to write it in two weeks.
Nick Bennett [00:30:27]:
Yeah.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:30:28]:
And like, yeah, it's like, you know, I have the outline. I haven't figured. I had the outline and then I started getting into. It's like, man, this is tough. There was a point where, like, how do I say this? How do I write this? So it's been. It's been probably painful, but at least I know what to expect with it. You mentioned it a few times. It's called Eureka: The Product Onboarding Playbook for B2B Companies.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:30:49]:
And it's coming out in June, so I'm super excited about that.
Nick Bennett [00:30:53]:
Yeah, dude, it looks awesome. I appreciate the. The artwork too.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:30:58]:
Thank you.
Nick Bennett [00:30:58]:
40,000 words or something like that. So the manuscript is done. You're giving out to a few people. This is the part about the Book launch experience and the process that I don't know anything about. And I think people just think, you write a book, someone gives you money, and they publish the book. It shows up on Amazon like. But there's a lot more nuance to it. So what is going on in the process of you getting the book into other people's hands? How does that affect the output of what you're like, the final product?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:31:26]:
Actually, it's something I learned from another book,Write Useful Books.
Nick Bennett [00:31:30]:
A book called How to Write a Book.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:31:32]:
Yeah, it's actually pretty funny. He wrote a great book called The Mom Test, Rob Fitzpatrick, which, you know, it's about product discovery and customer research. Then he wrote a book about how to write useful books, which is actually really good. And one of the things that I didn't think about, which when my first book was coming out, he just published his book, is the idea of beta readers, where, like, if you're going to launch a product, you do a beta launch and you launch it to a small group of people to kind of like, iron out any bugs. So treating your book like a product launch was something that I learned from my previous launch and getting feedback from people who are doing it and some ideas. I've already gotten some honest, sometimes brutal feedback. I just got an email yesterday, Rami, I think your book is B minus. I'm like, what? And I was like, okay, let me leave it to you.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:32:20]:
I was like, okay. It's actually pretty honest. Like, it's like, okay, I'm gonna take this. Chunk it up. I remember, though, my first book where I gave it to a beta reader, and I was like, this chapter is not helpful. I was like, really? And I looked at it. It's like, you're right. I cut it out.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:32:34]:
I cut out a whole chapter from the book. I thank him, Josh Ho. And it was like, I appreciate you giving me the honest feedback because I totally cut off all chat because of what you said. So just getting that feedback early on and early is very helpful. It's something I've learned. Also, if people are thinking about writing your book, I think announcing it sooner than later is super helpful to, like, for people to know about it, first of all. And secondly, it helps you stay motivated because publicly announcing something kind of helps you to like, okay, I need to finish this or else.
Nick Bennett [00:33:04]:
It holds you accountable for.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:33:06]:
Sure, yeah, accountability, right? And then third is when you have the manuscript, you have people who are interested in checking it out and giving you their thoughts and process around it.
Nick Bennett [00:33:14]:
And then I Saw that you used descript to narrate chapter or draft of the book. One of the things that I've heard from, like, one of my friends published a book and he was like, doing the. The audiobook was so much harder, so much work. He was like, it was. It was brutal, miserable to do this. He's like, I couldn't believe how hard it was to do to record the audiobook now with a. With AI, I know there's like, companies that will clone your voice. I mean, descript can do it now, like, do you plan on using that all the way through, or are you going to read the book?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:33:50]:
No, this is a first draft. It's not perfect, actually. It's. I think it's like 60 to 80% of my voice when it says so the way it worked. I read a few things, like about 30 seconds. And then you call my voice, it would say, Instead of saying B2B, it says B2B onboarding. I'm like, man, that is whack. It gets some of the nuances and the process that I have with my words, which is great.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:34:15]:
But, like, there are certain words for, like, this is not great. Like, it's obviously not the right kind of how you would say that specific word because it's probably not used to it. So I would probably end up reading my own book. Just because there's a premium to authors reading their own book, as well as there might be some jokes there that I would just add a little laugh to let people know that it's supposed to be funny, not serious.
Nick Bennett [00:34:39]:
Like a real human read this book.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:34:41]:
Right, Exactly. And it's like, Wes Bush, his first book Product-Led Growth. He hired somebody to read it and it was like, man, like, he missed that joke in that specific paragraph. And that narrator didn't laugh. He's like, I would never do that again.
Nick Bennett [00:34:57]:
Which I. I don't listen to audiobooks that the author doesn't read. Like, it's just harder. There's something about it that it just exactly.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:35:05]:
I don't know, almost intimate. When an author reads their own book because they wrote it and also they are reading it, which it's really hard to fake the voice really well. I think at the moment it might get better later, but you're still like, ah, there's something off about this audio.
Nick Bennett [00:35:23]:
All right, this one's going to sound crazy, but this one's a tough one. So you brought up The Coaching Habit earlier. Did you listen to that book on audiobook?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:35:31]:
I have not. I actually don't Listen to books, which is. I'm one of the weird ones. 70% of people apparently read the book.
Nick Bennett [00:35:38]:
You're crazy. I bring it up because the author of that book reads the book, but he has a massive speech impediment.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:35:46]:
Oh, no.
Nick Bennett [00:35:46]:
And so it's like, I'm torn. I'm like, after a while, you can kind of like, you learn to understand what he's saying. But to your point, I was like, I don't know. I still appreciate that he went for, like, I give the man a lot of credit for going for it because it definitely doesn't seem like it was easy.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:36:03]:
Did you finish through it? No, I did.
Nick Bennett [00:36:05]:
I did finish it.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:36:06]:
Nice.
Nick Bennett [00:36:06]:
I did finish it. It was still a phenomenal book. It's good because it's also like the shortest book of all time. Like, if it was. If it was like a 30 hour audiobook, it probably would have been a different experience. But there's a company called Eleven Labs that I've heard of, Eleven Labs that does voice cloning. And the only reason I know about this is because I'm a big fan of the category pirates. And they are using Eleven Labs to.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:36:28]:
I didn't know that.
Nick Bennett [00:36:28]:
Turn all their mini books to audiobooks. And there's definitely like a little bit of like, you know, AI twang to it. Like, you kind of hear and you're like, that was a weird moment. But, like, for the most to be like, no, it's good. Like, it's really, really, really good. But there's like, every once in a while there's like a moment where you're like, that didn't translate super well from text to the AI, like, to the robot reading it. But I'll tell you, it sounds just like them. It is really good.
Nick Bennett [00:36:57]:
It gets a lot of the nuance in the way that you speak. I don't know. I'll check it out. I appreciate it. And even if you're saying, like, this book was read by Ramli's AI, so that's how they do it. And I appreciate it every time. So. Yeah, dude.
Nick Bennett [00:37:10]:
Okay, looking back, what's something you would have done differently?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:37:14]:
What's something I would have done differently in terms of like, launching, getting into solopreneurship?
Nick Bennett [00:37:21]:
Yeah. Anything along the way. I mean, it could be from the very beginning when you met Wes and you wrote the book. It could be anywhere across the journey. Just looking back, what's something you would have done differently that you feel like would have made an impact on where you are right now?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:37:35]:
This is something that I've heard quite a few times around. You see the feast of famine, we're like making sure that there's an understanding that you know, that there will be some times when there won't be sales calls. I know in our little group, John Bonini posted up something which is another solo consultant. We're like, what do you guys do? I know he's filled up, but like, this first few months, it's been quiet. And it's something that I also talked to Brandon Hufford about where, like, there will be some months where like, he didn't get any sales calls. And the tendency in your mind is like, freak out. It's like, oh my goodness, everything's falling apart. This guy, this guy's falling.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:38:11]:
I think that's making sure that's part of the process and it's part of the journey as well. And like, if you keep doing the right things in terms of like generating pipeline, whatever it is, posting up on LinkedIn, sending those newsletter, doing cold webinars, whatever, as long as you're working through that and not waiting until the end would be super valuable, I think. The other thing that doesn't get talked enough about that I've been talking more with Andrew Capland a bit more, is the whole mental piece around being a solopreneur. Like, first of all, you're solo. But secondly, there's a lot of. Because of that up and down swings, a lot of it is continuing to have mental fortitude or like some kind of like meditation practice. To not freak out? No, to not, like, oh my goodness, this is, I think having some kind of practice to calm those fears and those doubts is something that, that I've only started picking up lately. Even more so in practicing.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:39:11]:
There's this great book that Andrew suggested to me. It's a terrible title. It sounds like a scam, but it's great. It's called The Secrets of the Millionaire Mind. I know once again, like straight up, when I heard it's like, this is a scam.
Nick Bennett [00:39:24]:
This is mlm. Like, yeah, right.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:39:26]:
But like a lot of the stuff that the person is talking about how having positive mindset and like declaring certain things has been helpful lately. When I just started practicing and doing some kind of more meditation at the beginning of the year of 2025 has been super, super helpful to like calm this negative self talk and this negative, like, oh, man, like, this is not gonna work out. Like, go find a job now. Like, you're still early. You have a good, like a lot of stoicism like, you have a good Runway. What's the worst that can happen? You have a network that can. A lot of those things are something that I've been practicing more and more lately, which, if I could go back, tell myself, you need to start thinking about this and doing this because it's part of the journey.
Nick Bennett [00:40:12]:
Yeah. Prepare for the emotional whiplash. That's the only way I've been able to describe it appropriately, which is, some days, all you hear is no. Some days, some weeks, maybe some months, all you get is no. And then some days, some weeks, and some months.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:40:29]:
Right.
Nick Bennett [00:40:30]:
All you get is yes.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:40:31]:
Yes.
Nick Bennett [00:40:32]:
And you're like, I'm king of the world. Like, you're doing so good. You're like, I can't believe this.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:40:37]:
Right.
Nick Bennett [00:40:37]:
You're like, and I doubted myself. And then the next day, you get nothing but no's, and you're like, right. What am I doing wrong? Like. Like, this is just part of the process, the emotional whiplash. The thing that I have learned about through all this and just talking with people is, is the tribe. I mean, you've named a bunch of people who have been in your corner and that you've leaned on throughout your whole process, even long before you went out on your own. And the people that you've collaborated with and friends that you've made. That's huge.
Nick Bennett [00:41:05]:
Yeah, that's huge. Because you get to ask somebody, like, hey, Andrew, is it like this for everybody or is it just me? Like, am I crazy? Like, sanity checks are very, very real and important in this process. Because you don't. I mean, how are you supposed to know? You're like, I have nothing to compare this to. Especially when you work in house. It's like, you're not responsible for everything completely end to end. So you don't really see it. You might hear about it, but it's not real in the same way that it's real when your family doesn't eat if you don't do the thing.
Nick Bennett [00:41:38]:
Right.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:41:38]:
That's true. Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:41:40]:
Yeah.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:41:40]:
And when you do have a big hunt, it's a feast. It's like a. You know, you catch a big whale, let's go eat the fat.
Nick Bennett [00:41:47]:
Yeah. Fat and happy.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:41:49]:
Yeah. And I think that's the other piece around. Solopreneur is like, when you're working in a company, you can ask somebody. Right. And when you're solo, like, who do you ask? And I think that's. I think the other thing that I'm thankful for is, like, being plugged into cognitive with with yourself and other solopreneurs who you can ask those questions like, am I crazy? Am I crazy? We just saw that question from today. It's like, am I crazy for thinking this is not normal? And everybody was like, this is weird.
Nick Bennett [00:42:19]:
This is a. You are 100% super weird.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:42:22]:
You need to get out of this situation. Or something like that where like, I think having somebody to bounce off your experience and making sure that you're not crazy, it's super, super helpful. I think that for people who are thinking about this journey, I think that's something that I would get tugged into people who have done it and just.
Nick Bennett [00:42:40]:
Ask, find your drive. And it's like, it doesn't have to be anything more than hey, do you want to meet once a month?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:42:49]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:42:49]:
That's how I ended up like, I think over a year ago I met John Benini and we had a great conversation. We were like, hey, we should just like do this every day.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:42:59]:
How did you guys meet? Like, did you guys meet online or like, I've never heard this story.
Nick Bennett [00:43:03]:
I interviewed him so you can hear all about it. But the short, short version is very. Is as he and I used to the similar thing for you and Wes, how you went to the same school as he did many years later. I worked at the same agency as John did many years later. Like he was the marketing director for. At an agency called Impact. And for many years he left and went on into tech and to do what he's doing now. And I showed up there a few years after he left and if leaving as the marketing director as well.
Nick Bennett [00:43:35]:
And we had a mutual connection. Pete Caputa CEO Databox, who he worked with, Pete was a good friend of the CEO of Impact. And so I had known Pete through that Short story long the premise of my business was like very important to Pete, which was helping agencies niche down and make more money. And so that's a big part of his mission in life, is to help agencies succeed. So he and I became close when I first started my business. And then somewhere along the way, Pete encouraged John like that he was like, you guys should connect.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:44:08]:
You guys should definitely talk. That makes sense.
Nick Bennett [00:44:10]:
And so we finally got on a call and then after that I was like, hey, we should just like jam every like once a month. Like, let's just kind of have a standing thing. This was really helpful. And I was like, yes, this is very helpful for both of us to like just have someone to bounce some ideas off. And that was like the first real sense of, of any sort of community that I had doing this. So. But then, you know, that evolves and then more people kind of. He's like, yeah, I do the same with Andrew.
Nick Bennett [00:44:34]:
And then Andrew and I kind of jam every once in a while. And then like Ren is involved now Ram is involved, and all of a sudden it just grows and grows. And all of a sudden there's like a whole group of us, right, asking if this situation is crazy.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:44:46]:
So true.
Nick Bennett [00:44:47]:
All right, Ramley, my man, let's end here. What do you want to build that you haven't built yet? Or what's the future of Delight Path look like?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:44:55]:
Dang. I've never been asked this question. Something I've been thinking a lot about. I think there was the three things that gave me a ton of energy. It was building and creating something. The other thing was teaching. The third thing that I haven't really tapped into is connecting people. It is something that I've been thinking a lot about, is the next evolution of this.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:45:16]:
I would love to build a community for a group of people that care about something. Not necessarily onboarding, not necessarily focus on a specific niche problem, but more like around a group of people who are doing something together. Examples that I'm like, whenever I'm trying to do something, I look for like, what's another pattern thing that has done it. I'm looking at Jimmy Daly who's doing Superpath with content marketers, and Tamara, who's Grominsky is doing it with product marketers. Or what we've. We're seeing with solopreneurs with or solo creators or solo consultants with this. With this community or what JCloud's doing with creators. I just need to find my people because like the problem with onboarding is that it's different places where they could be at.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:46:06]:
So they can be in growth, they can be a product, they can be in customer success. And then I just need to double down on one things like whether that's growth people or with customer success people and help them not just with this problem, but their career and their life and how do they progress overall rather than just specific problem around onboarding. So I think that's what probably is going to be my focus maybe next year. This year it's like I need to be hyper focused to like, hey, nailing down my services so that I can make sure to have. What is it money for? Money is better than no money.
Nick Bennett [00:46:41]:
Yeah. Diapers are better than no diapers.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:46:43]:
That situation.
Nick Bennett [00:46:43]:
Yeah.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:46:44]:
So making sure that's happening. So that's something I've been thinking a lot about. It's the next iteration of what I'd like to do in the future. Build a community, potentially even in person. I love to do, like, in person. Conferences around. It was for customer success. Being around that, for that.
Nick Bennett [00:46:59]:
I love it. The membership model is tough. I'm living it right now with. With Erica.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:47:04]:
You're deep in it.
Nick Bennett [00:47:04]:
I'm deep in it. And with the with Full Stack Solo, I mean, it's. It's extremely rewarding for all the reasons that you're describing. It's like, why you want to do it. It's entirely different than a professional services model. Yes, it's difficult, but it's super rewarding. I definitely think there's room in this world for what you're doing, and it might not matter the role. It matters more on the problem that it solves.
Nick Bennett [00:47:28]:
So I think if you create a place for people who specialize in product onboarding, you're probably closer than you think to making it work than trying to decide if it's customer service or if it's growth or whatever. I think you're probably closer than you think. So really cool, man. I. It's not for me, which is okay. It's not my. It's not my community, but I know plenty of people are gonna be there. I think there's a ton of opportunity for you, my man.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:47:54]:
Thank you so much.
Nick Bennett [00:47:55]:
Bouchette Rambling. Thanks for coming on, dude. Thanks for sharing your story with me. It means the world. I know more people feel seen on their own route because of it, and so for that, I'm thankful, my man. It's been a ton of fun jamming with you.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:48:06]:
Same here, Nick. Appreciate your invite.
Nick Bennett [00:48:13]:
Hey, Nick. Again, and thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, you can sign up for the 1,000 Routes newsletter, where I process the insights and stories you hear on this show into frameworks and lessons to help you build a new, indifferent future for your own business. You can sign up at 1000routes.com or check the link in the show notes. What would be your last meal on earth?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:48:43]:
Last meal on earth. Wow.
Nick Bennett [00:48:45]:
Yeah. Straight to the point.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:48:46]:
I'm a big steak guy. Yeah. Every birthday, I have a piece of steak. Instead of a kitchen cake, I put a candle on a steak. So medium rare birthday steak is how I celebrate my birthdays every year. Probably not. I mean, it's once a year, but it's probably not. Is steak healthier than cake?
Nick Bennett [00:49:03]:
I don't know. Yes.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:49:05]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:49:06]:
Without a doubt, steak is healthier. Than cake. What's your cut of what is your birthday steak cut?
Ramli "RJ" John [00:49:13]:
Oh, man, I'm not picky. New York doesn't matter. Prime, as long as it's medium rare, cooked well. Like, it has a char on the outside, a little bit of crunch, and. Yeah, birthday steak.
Nick Bennett [00:49:26]:
I've been doing it wrong my whole life. I'm gonna tell my wife I did.
Ramli "RJ" John [00:49:30]:
It once in a restaurant. And then they're like, are you sure about this? We'll also get you a cake. It's like, fine, bring my cake for my wife. But I don't want the cake.
Nick Bennett [00:49:37]:
Please put a candle on a steak. Like you don't understand. I love that so much. That is going to be a new tradition. They're household. The birthday steak. I love it. I have, like, no, I have no notes.