Is Forcing Your Teen to Shower a Compliance Problem, Or a Hygiene One?

Julianna Scott and Kelley Jensen return for another social media questions episode, tackling the topics parents are actually asking about online. They dig into swearing as an expression of frustration, whether a nonverbal five-year-old will ever talk, what Glass Child Syndrome means for siblings, physical meltdowns directed at one parent, the fight over whether a teenager has to shower, and what happens when a parent asks about combining ABA with a PDA-focused support group. Julianna and Kelley weigh in with clinical experience and personal stories, showing why online advice rarely fits any one family.

Key Takeaways:

• Swearing is often a form of communication or release, not just defiance
• A swear jar or family word diet can turn cursing into a teaching moment
• ABA should include alternative communication tools like PECS or sign language, not just spoken words
• Five years old, or even three years of therapy, isn't long enough to declare something isn't working
• Glass Child Syndrome describes siblings feeling overlooked, and it's worth taking seriously
• Physical aggression toward one parent usually signals an unmet communication or sensory need
• Hitting a child to stop a behavior teaches hitting, it does not build regulation skills
• Hygiene is not an arbitrary rule, and sensory-based shower struggles deserve real accommodations, not shame
• Some online support groups shut down honest questions rather than answer them
• Many PDA-focused strategies quietly borrow from ABA principles like antecedents and behavior triggers

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00:00 Swearing and how kids express frustration
00:57 Reading Kelley's notes and today's topics
01:39 A speech therapy swearing breakthrough story
02:57 Teaching kids when and where to swear
03:44 The swear jar as a family tool
04:47 Will my nonverbal five-year-old ever talk
05:44 Questions to ask before giving up on ABA
06:24 Alternative communication tools beyond speech
07:22 A speech therapist's look-here breakthrough story
09:08 Focus on connection, not just words
10:19 Glass Child Syndrome, is it real
11:26 PDA parenting and sibling separation
12:35 Why siblings may need therapy later
13:34 Physical meltdowns directed at one parent
14:34 Finding the antecedent behind aggression
16:07 Immediate versus long-term behavior strategies
16:52 Why hitting a child is never the answer
17:41 Brain Performance Technologies sponsor message
18:07 Should a teenager be forced to shower
19:36 Why hygiene is not arbitrary
20:24 When shower resistance is trauma related
21:33 A trigger warning for mentioning ABA
23:03 A PDA group shuts down an ABA question
25:02 Why the wrong therapy can be worse than none
27:35 PDA strategies that quietly borrow from ABA
28:36 Where to find Refrigerator Moms

Creators and Guests

Guest

Julianna Scott

Guest

Kelley Jensen

What is Refrigerator Moms?

Born from 20 years of friendship, during which they navigated the trenches of autism parenting and advocacy, the Refrigerator Moms is Kelley Jensen and Julianna Scott’s way of reaching out to parents waging the same battles they were.  Their purpose with this podcast is to clear the fog, silence the noise, and find a path through neurodivergence for parents that are stuck between bad choices. They tackle parenting topics such as mom guilt, tantrums, pathological demand avoidance, siblings, medication, comorbidities, social media, and much more. 

Julianna Scott 00:00
On today's social media comments episode, we're talking about all kinds of things, including what to do about swearing.
Julianna Scott 00:11
Hi, and welcome back to the Refrigerator Moms. I'm Julianna Scott. I'm here with my friend Kelley Jensen, and we are the Refrigerator Moms. So today, Kelley, you're going to be telling me what's out there on social media, cause I won't go near it.
Kelley Jensen 00:26
Yes. This is one of those episodes where I throw out some of the current topics people are asking questions about on the various social media channels. And I do my best to shock you.
Julianna Scott 00:39
I know. And today.
Kelley Jensen 00:39
Yeah, today's no exception.
Julianna Scott 00:44
Okay, great. I'm ready. I'm ready. This time we're laughing a little bit.
Kelley Jensen 00:45
Because these are supposed to be a surprise, but since I'm too vain to wear my reading glasses, you know that the first topic is swearing.
Julianna Scott 00:57
I do. And I know something about will they ever talk?
Kelley Jensen 00:58
I know. That's coming up.
Julianna Scott 00:58
This is a good reading test. If you're not wearing my glasses, if you're listening and not watching us on YouTube, go over to YouTube and you too can read Kelley's notes.
Kelley Jensen 01:10
Not wearing my glasses, I think. No judgment. My body, my choice. So large font it is.
Julianna Scott 01:16
Okay.
Kelley Jensen 01:16
Okay. My child is constantly swearing as a form of him expressing his frustrations at everything from the TV to the Xbox to his siblings. To me, it is disrespectful, jarring, scary to his siblings. And I worry that one, he's going to swear at the wrong person. I assume he is modeling myself or my spouse, who are prone to swearing occasionally.
Kelley Jensen 01:39
So what do you have to say about swearing, Julianna?
Julianna Scott 01:39
Well, as you know, I like to swear. I like a good curse word. You know what? I have to just say that when my son was first doing speech therapy, he was really not speaking at all. We were getting, you know, no words. And I was so frustrated because we were really working hard. And the speech therapist gave me a pep talk, and she said, sometimes the child has to hear it a thousand times. Keep going.
Julianna Scott 02:06
I promise you're gonna hear sounds. You're gonna hear, you know, some language popping out of his mouth. And then I swear to God, the very next week, we were talking through notes, and he was playing with a toy, and he screamed the F word.
Kelley Jensen 02:19
Yeah.
Julianna Scott 02:19
And did he hear it thousands of times? I maintain that he did not hear it a thousand times. And she tried to make me feel better by saying, well, you know, sometimes those big expletives pack more of a punch and so they don't need to be heard a thousand times. But I really tried to curb it.
Kelley Jensen 02:35
I think there is a moment of pride when your child uses a swear word appropriately.
Julianna Scott 02:41
I was proud. I did go home and tell my husband that he knows the F word.
Kelley Jensen 02:47
Right. And he used it correctly.
Julianna Scott 02:47
Uh huh.
Kelley Jensen 02:47
Yes. So yeah, time and a place.
Julianna Scott 02:56
Yes. But how do you teach that? And for a black and white thinker, the comments were all over the board.
Kelley Jensen 02:57
From the don't try to censor him to, you know, everybody swears to. It's pretty hard to teach your child what you're doing, you know, to do as you say. It's not as. Again, big advocate of swearing.
Julianna Scott 03:11
Yes. But again, there is a time and a place and hearing a kid curse like regularly isn't a great look and they could get in trouble. And, well, it can, you know, swearing in classrooms and swearing at your child, at your sibling and swearing at the wrong person, it can lead to physical violence. It can be a precursor to physical violence.
Kelley Jensen 03:34
So my suggestion, I mean the advice was all across the board. None of it was great. I mean, letting them swear, no, I'm just gonna cancel. I'm not gonna.
Julianna Scott 03:44
Yeah, but I think a word diet for the whole family, I think, is one of those kind of things. I think that the swear jar is as good a tool as anybody. And everybody has to put something in the swear jar, but try not to make it money, because that's just, you know, we used to try and do like fun things, like, you know, write another word you could say, put that in the swear jar.
Kelley Jensen 04:05
And then if they do say a swear word, you pull out what they could have said instead. You know, these kind of fun games that dad has to do it too.
Julianna Scott 04:14
Right. And just because it's not great, community swearing is just, can be quite a release and that's fine.
Kelley Jensen 04:18
But knowing when and where to release that is very important and not great for children who don't have great control over their emotions anyway. And you want them to learn better words. You want them to learn more descriptive words. You want them to learn words that pack more of a punch. So yeah, you have to be patient with some of it.
Julianna Scott 04:34
And you want to also use it as a teaching opportunity for the entire family.
Kelley Jensen 04:47
Yes. And I agree. I mean, you don't want your kids swearing at other kids.
Julianna Scott 04:47
No. And then those kids are starting to swear and everything.
Kelley Jensen 04:47
That's just good.
Julianna Scott 04:47
All right. Ready for the next one?
Kelley Jensen 04:47
Yes, I am.
Julianna Scott 04:47
Will my child ever talk? My kid is 5, has been in ABA 5 hours a day for the last 2 years and not making any progress in language. I am so frustrated.
Kelley Jensen 05:00
So what do you have to say to that parent?
Julianna Scott 05:09
It's frustrating.
Kelley Jensen 05:09
Yeah. And will they ever talk?
Julianna Scott 05:10
I, again, you know, I'm gonna ask lots of questions.
Kelley Jensen 05:18
Yes.
Julianna Scott 05:18
I know that your child is five.
Kelley Jensen 05:18
Five whole years old. Right.
Julianna Scott 05:18
I know your child is five. I know you've tried ABA. I don't know what else you've tried.
Kelley Jensen 05:23
I don't see speech therapy.
Julianna Scott 05:23
I don't see speech therapy, which seemed like a no brainer.
Kelley Jensen 05:23
Right. No offense.
Julianna Scott 05:28
Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know what you've tried. I don't know how consistent you've been. I don't know what your child's disabilities are.
Kelley Jensen 05:37
Right.
Julianna Scott 05:38
I don't know if your child will ever talk. And they may not. So there's lots of things that need to happen that you need to do. One is to make peace with, they may not ever talk.
Kelley Jensen 05:47
But so there was a lot of comments, some of them shades of bad, some of them shades of good. Kind of compiled the ones that I like the best. Make sure that the ABA therapist is incorporating alternative communication strategies for making needs known, probably the most important thing.
Julianna Scott 06:04
Yes. And I think ABA, right, we all, I think most of us learned a little sign language.
Kelley Jensen 06:16
Sign language, red cards, good old PECS. You know, they may never talk, but if they have mastered a PECS or some of the great AAC device tools that we, you know, we never had. I mean, you need that as much as you need speech and language.
Julianna Scott 06:24
Right. If not, cut back on so much ABA and work with a speech therapist to work on alternative communication and not just words.
Kelley Jensen 06:57
This episode of the Refrigerator Moms is brought to you by Brain Performance Technologies. Brain Performance Technologies is a specialty mental health clinic that offers magnetic e-resonance therapy, or MeRT, for autistic people aged 3 or older. MeRT is a transcranial magnetic stimulation protocol that utilizes an EEG diagnostic to deliver personalized magnetic pulses to stimulate the brain and build neural pathways effective in managing autistic symptoms, functional devices, PECS, and the social emotional connection that is the precursor of language.
Julianna Scott 07:22
So I want to say this because I often reference the speech saver, the first speech therapist that we ever went to. And there was a child that used to, they used to have therapy before we did.
Kelley Jensen 07:22
And one day we came a little early and she was, you could see kind of through a window, she had like a window. She was literally on top of the child. She had him kind of pinned, but the mom was in there with her.
Julianna Scott 07:34
So, you know, it was something that they had agreed to. And she was just trying to get him to look at her in the eyes. That the whole exercise, the whole speech therapy, was just making him look here. It's hard for some kids.
Kelley Jensen 07:52
Well, that's why she kind of had it pinned down. But she had it done, like, in such a way that it was like kind of a fun play kind of thing. And then they take a break and then the mom would try. And the whole speech therapy class was, look here, look here, look here. And I asked her about it. Cause it seemed so strange to me.
Julianna Scott 08:05
And she said, I want him to understand the information's here. That he can get a laugh. He can. You know, we're trying to get him to want to see our face so he can connect with our face and not just connect with the toys or with running around the room. We want him here. And I didn't really quite understand it at the time.
Julianna Scott 08:23
And then about a year later, I saw the child again, and he was sitting up at the table and they were doing like a tabletop game together. And I didn't even recognize them, but I recognized the mom. And I went, oh, my God. And she said, can you believe it? And I said, I know I can.
Julianna Scott 08:41
And she said, he may never be verbal, but we're thrilled. And I never forgot her because he was understanding the connection. And you know, why kids don't talk is a very complicated thing that nobody really knows. But you can still get that interaction, that relationship, that look here for mom for help, look here for mom for guidance. And I mean, it made an enormous difference in that child's life.
Kelley Jensen 09:08
So that's huge. Don't focus on the words. Focus on the connection, the communication, and what you can do together so that the child knows to turn to you. And this goes without saying, but I'm gonna say it anyway. If you are going to social media and asking these questions, don't ask a question like, why won't my kid talk?
Julianna Scott 09:33
Yeah, yeah, pretty.
Kelley Jensen 09:33
Just to make yourself feel better, you know, you wanna hear the magic bullet. What if someone says, well, I don't know if there were any negative comments, but I mean, I don't think people are gonna troll this mom. But like, then also you're getting kind of, yeah, you're. You obviously want the response like, yes, of course they're going to talk and just hang in there and do these things. But that's also not reality.
Julianna Scott 09:55
Right. Yeah. I hope that this parent took the advice that was hanging there. You haven't been doing this long enough. Five years old is not long enough.
Kelley Jensen 10:05
Make sure that you are asking questions about alternative communications. I mean, there's a tremendous amount of education a parent needs to do. I guess my point is you're asking the wrong question to the wrong crowd.
Julianna Scott 10:18
Yes.
Kelley Jensen 10:19
All right, all right. Glass child syndrome. Is it a real thing? Someone in my family claims that being too accommodating of my PDA child will worsen the glass child syndrome in my other children. Makes me feel so guilty, and I do not know what to do.
Julianna Scott 10:35
So is glass child syndrome...
Kelley Jensen 10:44
Okay, go to our episode about siblings. And from our siblings, yes, we learned.
Julianna Scott 10:44
Absolutely.
Kelley Jensen 10:55
Yes, glass child syndrome is real. And I think it's interesting, again, I don't know if you had more information about this particular family. How old are the kids?
Julianna Scott 10:56
She didn't say. Yeah, she didn't say, you know, that group leans. The whole PDA style of parenting does not have great answers for siblings other than keep them separated and try to, you know, carve for the sibling, keep them separated, carve out time for the sibling. But, you know, I ask because I think it's interesting that she sounds like she's probably in the thick of it and she's already aware of glass child syndrome.
Kelley Jensen 11:27
So if you're aware of even this idea that your sibling could feel invisible, which is glass child syndrome, pay attention to that. I mean, why wouldn't you?
Julianna Scott 11:52
Well, I agree, but, you know, like, real or not, whatever you want to call it, we didn't have the terminology glass child syndrome.
Kelley Jensen 11:52
No, but we knew that our kid might feel ignored.
Julianna Scott 12:00
Right, right. Or that we weren't spending, we were focusing a lot of our attention on our kid who needed a lot of attention, and that that might have effects. And we certainly like to keep it separated.
Kelley Jensen 12:05
You know, we talk a lot about this in the sibling episode. It's just, you know, you do the best and you know that you're separating them for their own safety and all these other things, but you know that there'll be a consequence, and that consequence is they are going to feel removed from the situation. And again, if you're asking the question again, it's not the right question to be asking.
Julianna Scott 12:27
Right. Well, and also, am I doing this right? Is what I really take. Am I really doing this right by, yeah, do I really have to pay attention to my other kid?
Kelley Jensen 12:35
Yeah, that's. Yeah. Yes. I mean, that's the question you're asking is like, do I need to focus my attention on the sibling? Am I messing that kid up by doing this?
Julianna Scott 12:46
Go to our paper that the siblings of our neurodivergent children helped us write. They do a wonderful job of outlining how they got through those feelings and things that helped and things that didn't help. So it is a real thing. Parents need to take it seriously. It is not a good thing to not carve out time for the siblings and to not make sure that you are addressing their mental health.
Kelley Jensen 13:12
Yes. And get them therapy when they're ready for it and everything. Because let's be honest, they're gonna need some therapy.
Julianna Scott 13:23
Yeah.
Kelley Jensen 13:24
All right. That was our takeaway from that episode. That is what our siblings told us. Is like, when they are ready, they will need therapy.
Julianna Scott 13:34
Yes.
Kelley Jensen 13:34
My five year old child has meltdowns that are physical, but only with me. He does not do it. We have been doing ABA play therapy and he has an IEP through the school district. I am a single parent with full custody, but have a partner who is not the parent. And my child's behavior is leading to conflict on how to best parent these behaviors. Need advice. Nothing is working. And we have been trying for three years.
Julianna Scott 14:00
Okay. Okay. So my first thing is three years isn't long enough.
Kelley Jensen 14:00
Violent behavior and it's only directed toward her.
Julianna Scott 14:10
So there was a time when you and I would have been like, well, he's only doing it to me, thank God. Right. Like, that would have been like.
Kelley Jensen 14:15
Right. Like he went to school and he had a good day at school. Right. It's like, I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll do whatever I can to, you know, help him feel comfortable.
Julianna Scott 14:20
I just want to point out a couple things that, you know, this child is dealing with a father figure or mother figure, whatever. We don't know the gender. But somebody that is not their parent.
Kelley Jensen 14:34
So that might be eating away at some of the conflict. There might be some sort of residential, I don't know, irritation.
Julianna Scott 14:46
So many questions.
Kelley Jensen 14:46
So many questions. Where is the behavior coming from?
Julianna Scott 14:46
Right. So again, you've got to find out what is triggering the behavior.
Kelley Jensen 14:56
Right. What is the antecedent? So if your ABA therapist is not helping you figure out an antecedent behavior, this should be a program. This is one of the reasons why ABA should be in the home. The ABA therapist should be helping you with that. Are they witnessing any of that so that they can help you determine that antecedent? Physical behavior often stems from the inability to communicate effectively another way.
Julianna Scott 15:13
So find out what they want to communicate. Maybe it's a sense. Could be also it could be a sensory issue, it could be a regulation issue, it could be anxiety, it could be, it could be all kinds of things.
Kelley Jensen 15:44
Yes, but you don't want physical aggression to continue. I've been in that sense space and I remember as my child was getting bigger and I was starting to get concerned about, oh, what's going to happen when he outweighs me or I am not strong enough anymore to restrain him and do those things.
Julianna Scott 15:44
These are real things and you need help with them. So if it's been three years, I do think it's time you need to get professional help.
Kelley Jensen 15:55
Well, they have ABA. So what is it? Put it back on the ABA. Put it back on the ABA therapist. Say this bumps up to the top of the list. So you need immediate strategies. So things to do in the immediate tantrum, things that are the aggression.
Julianna Scott 16:08
If you need to learn self restraint, you need to learn self restraint. Things that are long term, figuring out antecedents, ways to avoid triggers and then better communication skills for long, long term. Perhaps some medication.
Kelley Jensen 16:24
Perhaps a little bit of medication. I wanted to say that the point about the conflict between the partner and getting physical because you're bigger than the five year old so that they stop because they're scared of you is never the answer.
Julianna Scott 16:34
That does not build good communication. And if you are with someone that is either the, even if they are the, you know, biological parent and they think that you should be spanking and you should. Absolutely not.
Kelley Jensen 16:52
No, no. And I use the ABA therapist to help that person understand why that's not a great idea. It's just a band aid on a bullet hole.
Julianna Scott 16:52
And worse than just a band aid, it is probably going to escalate the situation.
Kelley Jensen 17:00
Well, and you're teaching your kid how to hit, right? So you don't ever want to do that. You want to teach the kid to use their words, to de-escalate, to self regulate.
Julianna Scott 17:08
It's a long and painful process, but it will fruit.
Kelley Jensen 17:08
Yes. And hitting will give you immediate fruit and then you'll find them hitting people later.
Julianna Scott 17:20
So yes.
Kelley Jensen 17:20
Are you taking care of your brain? You've tried medication, you've gone to therapy, but has anyone talked to you about brain care? It is the mental health treatment no one has told you about. At Brain Performance Technologies we help with depression, PTSD, autism and many other mental health conditions. Our treatments are drug free and non invasive. Reach out to us about insurance options. Brainperformancetechnologies.com.
Julianna Scott 17:41
Balancing compliance. Okay, is compliance bad? My wife insists that we should not make our teen shower if he does not want to because it is his body, his choice, and we should not make him do something that he may have a perfectly valid reason for not wanting to do. I say he stinks and I cannot handle being around it.
Kelley Jensen 18:07
Okay, I think we're abusing the my body, my choice expression.
Julianna Scott 18:15
I think this is not what this is referring to.
Kelley Jensen 18:15
What do you mean?
Julianna Scott 18:15
I just used it for my.
Kelley Jensen 18:15
I know, again, I think we're now diluting it.
Julianna Scott 18:21
So if you stink, you stink.
Kelley Jensen 18:21
You stink. Right? I mean that's, I mean, yes, you are making a choice, but you share space with other people.
Julianna Scott 18:26
Well, I think it's an interesting, this whole idea about how we're raising them to be compliant and they might have a very valid reason for not wanting to shower.
Kelley Jensen 18:37
Okay, well you should be able to. Well, do you know that they have a valid reason?
Julianna Scott 18:37
And that's a, if you believe they have a valid reason for not wanting to shower, then that's where the conversation starts. If they generally don't like water hitting on them or then a bath.
Kelley Jensen 18:50
Right, right. Get some, get some wipes out. I don't know. There are ways to be.
Julianna Scott 18:50
Yes, but leaving yourself unclean.
Kelley Jensen 18:50
No, because it's your body, your choice and because compliance with things that are arbitrary to you doesn't, you know, it's not going to serve you.
Julianna Scott 19:04
There is very valid reason why you should be hygienic. And I encourage parents to constantly be weighing the pros and cons. The, again, what is the harm in letting him be. And it's just very short sighted.
Kelley Jensen 19:18
It is.
Julianna Scott 19:18
I would argue that hygiene, personal hygiene is not arbitrary.
Kelley Jensen 19:18
No.
Julianna Scott 19:18
That you are going to hopefully live a long full life among other people. And if we all were just arbitrary about our hygiene, that would become unpleasant.
Kelley Jensen 19:36
Yeah.
Julianna Scott 19:36
I think as a family you need to decide what the absolute musts are. And shared spaces are a must. Taking care of yourself, self care. And that includes, you know, being clean. There are real consequences to not brushing your teeth and washing your body.
Kelley Jensen 19:53
There are real physical consequences. There are real consequences. So that's why it's non negotiable. Putting the work into helping the child understand why that matters. You can bring it to their level and just say, you know, you like playing with so and so, but they're not going to like playing with you because you stink.
Julianna Scott 20:08
Right. And you know, you can't smell yourself, but it smells like this. To demonstrate something that's unpleasant to them. All of those things are getting to the why of water, wash, shower. And if it is the method of delivery of the cleanliness, help them work on alternatives. That is valid.
Kelley Jensen 20:24
You know, if showering is a sensory thing and, you know, a lot of people in the comments had to say that there's situations of abuse, that abuse happens in bathrooms, and that this is very valid, particularly for a nonverbal person to be apprehensive about being naked. If you feel this is a problem, I mean, that's very specific. That's very different. That's not arbitrary.
Julianna Scott 20:51
Making an arbitrary rule that we all need to shower every day. And that's not even sensory. That is a trauma, and that needs to be addressed in addition to.
Kelley Jensen 20:59
Even if that is the reason why you don't like to shower, not showering is furthering the trauma. It is not helping you heal from the trauma. I don't like those kind of comments where it's like, okay, now you're making this another thing.
Julianna Scott 21:11
Yeah, totally.
Kelley Jensen 21:11
Of course, I'm not for abuse and trauma.
Julianna Scott 21:18
Right. By suggesting that your kids should shower.
Kelley Jensen 21:18
Right? No, I'm not doing that.
Julianna Scott 21:18
But I think that we, a little outside reaction to a compliance question.
Kelley Jensen 21:33
Right.
Julianna Scott 21:33
Okay. TW, you know that I'm going to love the posts that have a trigger warning, because some of the groups require you to put a TW so that people that might be triggered by what you're saying can scroll past it.
Kelley Jensen 21:51
They need a warning sign.
Julianna Scott 21:51
Okay. So here. You ready for the warning?
Kelley Jensen 21:58
Well, okay. TW: trying ABA. Don't hate me.
Julianna Scott 22:00
I knew you were gonna have that.
Kelley Jensen 22:10
ABA, it's triggering. That requires a trigger warning.
Julianna Scott 22:10
That requires a trigger warning. I mean, okay, that's rough. It's bad, right?
Kelley Jensen 22:18
I mean, that's rough. If that's triggering and you are parenting a child.
Julianna Scott 22:18
Parenting a child with autism.
Kelley Jensen 22:24
Right. Wow. Okay.
Julianna Scott 22:24
All right. Okay. That aside, I'm ready. I'm warned.
Kelley Jensen 22:27
Yeah. We have tried everything else, but we need more tools for our home, specifically sibling violence, sleep, and toileting. So far, the therapist has been very helpful.
Julianna Scott 22:39
So they're already doing it.
Kelley Jensen 22:39
Okay. And doing some awesome things.
Julianna Scott 22:39
And I helped the BCBA write the goals.
Kelley Jensen 22:47
Okay. Okay. What else should I be doing? I do not want to traumatize my child with ABA.
Julianna Scott 22:48
Okay, wait, but you've got sibling violence. That's, I mean, that's not more triggering, apparently.
Kelley Jensen 23:03
So the ABA is the issue. Okay, so the moderator commented and then turned off comments.
Julianna Scott 23:03
And I'm pointing this out to you because it goes with our continued theme that these people don't know you. These people are strangers, you are in a silo. The answer is ABA wrong. So don't go here expecting for vindication.
Kelley Jensen 23:20
Right. And I would argue if you've been using ABA and you want to talk about ABA and you're going to a group that you know is going to be triggered by ABA, right? What answer do you think you're going to get?
Julianna Scott 23:35
So this is the answer that the moderator gives before shutting the group, shutting down the comments. Because I have found in these PDA groups that a lot of people will say, we do it and it's fine. We're getting a good response.
Kelley Jensen 23:44
And oh, that is not acceptable.
Julianna Scott 23:44
That is not acceptable.
Kelley Jensen 23:52
Okay, okay. ABA is counter indicated for PDA. It is not considered best practice. We don't advocate for ABA here. So it's impossible for us to help you maximize your chances of ABA helping your PDA kid. It can't. By design. Behaviorism is inherently problematic.
Julianna Scott 24:03
We allow posts like this for the sake of education. So I'm including a wealth of resources for you. And then I'm closing the comments so we don't have to heavily moderate the post.
Kelley Jensen 24:18
Yeah, so we, so they don't have to moderate people saying, it's fine.
Julianna Scott 24:18
Yeah, we like it. Keep, keep, keep trying or, you know.
Kelley Jensen 24:25
Just kick people out of the group like they used to do with me. Unless you, how are you in this group?
Julianna Scott 24:26
Oh, I keep, I keep myself silent in this sucker because I know better because I've been kicked out of so many, you know.
Kelley Jensen 24:40
Anyway, it's definitely not your first rodeo.
Julianna Scott 24:40
No. Unless you've worked with PDA affirming OTs and therapists, which BCBAs are not.
Kelley Jensen 24:41
They are not PDA affirming.
Julianna Scott 24:52
Then there's so much more you can lean into from the perspective of relational neuroscience and PDA. Best practice compliance training via ABA is simply not the answer.
Kelley Jensen 25:02
Cue to my last question about compliance. The wrong therapy is worse than none, even when you have sibling violence. Please feel free to submit another post sharing what difficulties you're experiencing, and those of us here with more experience may be able to offer you guidance.
Julianna Scott 25:14
What do you think of that?
Kelley Jensen 25:14
That's it. And then no. But nobody shared any guidance.
Julianna Scott 25:17
Well, they weren't allowed to. She turned the comments off.
Kelley Jensen 25:22
Well, how are you supposed to share your guys in a new post?
Julianna Scott 25:22
Oh, which she didn't, or I don't think she did. Maybe I didn't see it, whatever. But the point of me sharing this is this is not a place for discussion. This is not a place to share ideas. This is not a place to say ABA is what I have access to.
Kelley Jensen 25:40
How do I maximize its potential? How do I write programs? This place is ABA bad. So don't go there.
Julianna Scott 25:48
Right. Like, and you don't owe those people anything. You are not joining a group. You are not joining a social movement. You are raising a child.
Kelley Jensen 25:56
And if, save your money. Because when you get further into the PDA resources, they're all a version of antecedent behavior consequences. All of them are. It's kick the can down the road until you actually can't anymore. And then you're going to have to put up a little meltdown and walk back a little.
Julianna Scott 26:12
Sibling violence. I mean, first of all, siblings, sibling violence, keep them separated, is the main advice they give. But the problem parents run into is they keep them separated.
Kelley Jensen 26:33
They keep them separated. The child that is struggling with PDA like behaviors doesn't acclimate to a new routine. They acclimate to the routine of them dominating your time, them being on their screen, them not wanting to leave the house. And pretty soon you have less and less time for your siblings. So you kicked a can down the road. And then you're like, I have to do something with my other child. I can't. This child's gonna have to stay at home. But then the child won't without you. So it becomes this whole thing.
Julianna Scott 26:46
There are many sad parts of this, but one of the sad parts is this poster, the original poster, you know, she is in some crisis here.
Kelley Jensen 27:02
Yeah. And looking for some help.
Julianna Scott 27:02
Right. And obviously she identifies her child as having PDA.
Kelley Jensen 27:11
She wouldn't be in this group. And that really puts her in a spot because she believes that this criteria fits her child. But she's being told, really not really being given any resources.
Julianna Scott 27:12
No, there was a big list of resources. And they're all these parenting coaches who aren't licensed or who are licensed but don't accept insurance.
Kelley Jensen 27:35
So you have to pay out of pocket for them. And it's just a cottage industry. And the most important thing is when you get to the bottom of what they're, it's basically a version of ABA. It is a new vernacular for tried and true technique.
Julianna Scott 27:48
Right. And, you know, stripping away more demands, figuring out what's going on, all of that is a version of ABA.
Kelley Jensen 28:02
Right, right. I mean, antecedent. Antecedent is the principal, you know, of ABA.
Julianna Scott 28:02
Right. So they sell that. So they're trying to steal what works and call it something else. And that's fine if it works for your family, that's fine if you can unschool. That's fine if you only have one child or if you have, you know, two children that work well in that model.
Kelley Jensen 28:09
But if it's not working for you, it's okay to bail on it. And you will also find that in many of these groups, there are many parents that are doing just that, but they don't say it because they're not allowed to, because they'll either get kicked out or the comment will get shut down. But rest assured that there are parents of PDA-ers doing plenty of ABA.
Julianna Scott 28:35
Interesting.
Kelley Jensen 28:36
Yeah, thanks for tuning in. Let us know what you think. Where can they find us, Julianna?
Julianna Scott 28:54
They can find us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, our website, refrigeratormoms.com, and you can listen to us anywhere. Well, you know, anywhere you get your podcast.
Kelley Jensen 28:55
And go to the YouTube channel if you want to see what we look like and what Kelley's notes look like.
Julianna Scott 29:01
All right, thanks for listening. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Julianna Scott 29:01
Thank you for listening to this episode of Refrigerator Moms. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can also find episode notes, resources, and any refrigerator paper connected to today's discussion on our website at refrigeratormoms.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter. We'd love to hear your questions and future episode ideas. Reach out to us on social media or through our website.
Julianna Scott 29:23
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Julianna Scott 29:53
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