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Tap to send me your reflections ♡ My guest today is the wonderful Susan McCulley - always a joy to welcome her back to the podcast. During the show, she shares a line from a song: "To question is to grow". This feels like a beautiful summation of where our conversation took us. We explore the impact of the phrase 'Because I said so', going deep and wide. Taking time to understand the essence of the meaning we may have been interpreting from what we've heard from authority figures in our lif...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
My guest today is the wonderful Susan McCulley - always a joy to welcome her back to the podcast.
During the show, she shares a line from a song: "To question is to grow". This feels like a beautiful summation of where our conversation took us.
We explore the impact of the phrase 'Because I said so', going deep and wide. Taking time to understand the essence of the meaning we may have been interpreting from what we've heard from authority figures in our life - whether or not they used this specific phrase. And how it may have influenced us - in our inner & outer life.
We discuss...
We close with a quote from Lady Gaga:
"The reason I don't want anyone to control me is not because I want to be in control. I don't want anyone to control me because I don't want anyone to control anyone".
Well said.
My final reflections on our conversation were that fundamentally, this is about being able to distinguish legitimate authority from authoritarianism. And remembering these messages are not necessarily passed on because of a conscious desire to control or limit others. Rather they can be an internal narrative that’s been passed down through the generational or systemic line.
Our role then, as we reshape the patterns of our life is to embrace being empowered and love our sense of agency - unlearning what we may have (unwittingly) been taught by (loving) caregivers or authority figures.
RESOURCES / REFERENCES
A great article on interoception from the New Yorker:
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A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Susan McCulley: You like,
Henny Flynn: we gotta catch it.
Yeah. Nice,
Susan McCulley: good, good. But
we that when the dynamics that
we got as kids, we we see in
larger contexts, it's no it's no
surprise, right? It's just like
we you know, we become grownups
and we say, I'm the president.
And because I say so. Yeah,
Henny Flynn: absolutely. And
there was. So hello, everybody,
and welcome to Susan, we, like
we realised we were starting to
talk. And, like, just press
record. So, you've just heard
the middle bit of a brilliant
thing that Susan said, we'll
circle back. So anyway, hello,
Susan.
Susan McCulley: Darling, so
great to see you.
Henny Flynn: Every like, every
time we talk, we talk there's
this kind of moment where we say
hello, and then there's just me
like laughing. Then you laugh.
And then, um, so this topic of
because I said, so it's actually
it actually feels pretty
serious. I think, despite our
light heartedness. Because just
to pick up on something that you
just said, I'm not sure if I
caught it on the recording was
that it gets imprinted within
us. And that, I think, relates
to so many of the phrases that
I've been exploring over the
last few weeks in the podcast,
and and there was one response I
had from so I have I've had lots
of messages. Interestingly,
because these are old things
inside, does that mean these
words they land when we're very
young, and so we carry them for
a long time. And someone wrote
to me and said that there was a
an affirmation she'd come
across, and it felt like it
really related to this topic of
because I said, so. There is no
power outside of me that can
ever determine my well being my
future or my potential. And she
said, she'd come across this
affirmation, and she really just
felt no, that is the thing I
need to remember because she
recognised she had been
absorbing these statements from
childhood to be Could you could
Susan McCulley: you say it
again? Could you say it again,
because I sometimes wear these
things. When they're really
good, I don't always catch them
right away.
Henny Flynn: This affirmation
is, there is no power outside of
me that can ever determine my
well being my future or my
potential. And it feels to me
that this statement, because
Because I said so is in direct
conflict. With that. It's
basically say, I determine what
gets spoken about here. I
determine what you think I
determine what you do. Because I
said, so. That's right.
Susan McCulley: That's right.
And in Yeah, I mean, I think
it's wide reaching. In my, in my
group, my version of this, when
I was growing up was you have
nothing to cry about. Right?
You're not You're not you,
right? So the, the message was,
or, or you've got nothing to be
angry about. Or it's like this
external force is coming in and
saying you are not, you know,
you're not feeling correctly.
Yeah. In this situation. And I'm
going to tell you how you should
be feeling. Yeah.
Henny Flynn: Oh, God, you've got
nothing to cry about. Do you
notice so slight segue? You
know, in the first five minutes
when I was leaving my last big
corporate role, the senior
leader that I had a conversation
with being very careful so that
no one can identify who this
person is. But anyway, a senior
leader that I had a conversation
with, when I was confirming that
I was going to go for whatever
reason, that person in the room
with me and the way I was
feeling just activated this high
emotion that resulted in me
crying in the meeting. And
clearly, you know, my first
thought was, this isn't a great
look. You know, here I am trying
to be assertive and say, No,
this is what I need, but like,
high emotion, and they said, You
don't need to cry. There's no
need to cry. And I felt this,
like warmth of energy come down
inside me. And I said, you don't
have a bleep bleep. Yes. Right
to say that to me. And nor can
you determine when it is or not
okay for me to cry. That's
great, though. It's really
interesting, because God when
you said it had this,
Susan McCulley: yeah, the light.
Right. And this is what we were
saying before, too, is that when
we hear that in when we're
young, I mean, I'm thinking
about the person, I'm thinking
with actually quite some
compassion for both parents, and
the person in the meeting with
you. Right, ill equipped to deal
with emotion. And so wanting to
shut it down. And, and thinking
that maybe in some ways, it's
like, it's, you know, you don't
have to cry.
Henny Flynn: Yeah, in some ways
wanting to be to bring comfort,
but you're absolutely right. It
Susan McCulley: was sort of an
ass backwards comfort. But yes,
right. Yeah, inability
Henny Flynn: to deal with that
emotion or to deal with the also
to deal with the challenge that
that brought with it, because it
demonstrated meaning
demonstrated important, you
know, that this was really
important. And actually, it's
much easier if we can just skate
over the surface of life and not
attach meaning and importance to
things. So because I said, so is
that. Yeah, you haven't got
anything to cry about? Yeah.
Push away. Move on. Yeah, shut
it down.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, neaten it
up? We don't want any too messy,
this messy and sort of clear.
And yeah, it doesn't make sense
to me logically to see you
crying in the situation.
Henny Flynn: Yeah. And I don't,
I don't like the way it makes me
feel. So we're gonna sit down. I
just want to pick up I think
this is really important, what
you said about the compassion,
the sense of compassion toward
the parent that said, You've got
nothing to cry about, and, and
to that person in the meeting
room. And, and just, I'd love to
talk a bit more about why people
perhaps do use those phrases.
And, and so we don't come at
this from a place of judgement,
you know, or seem to be coming
at this from a place of
judgement. You know, this is
it's completely understandable.
Right? A Thai parent says to a
child, because I said so. Yeah,
Susan McCulley: exactly. Yeah, I
mean, I think that is part of it
is what what I was talking
about, like, like, I don't want
this sort of on on this messy
business going on with like,
from my perspective, as the
adult in this situation,
probably the tired adult in this
situation. I don't have the
bandwidth or the inclination to
unpack the mess that is behind
that. Or, yeah, and it's just
easier to shut it down. But I
also, but I also think it's what
you said too, is like, and it
makes I feel, I feel something
in response to that, that is not
comfortable to me. And boy, I
can really imagine that in a
corporate setting. Even if it
was an HR person, but you know,
even so, HR HR, they've got to
have hankies on the on the desk,
don't they, but yeah, maybe not.
But But yes, like, Yeah, I mean,
as you pointed out, so clearly,
it's that there is so much going
on that you are not privy to
that to say that is is wholly
out of bounds, but it's also
wholly understandable. And for
me, I think for me, I don't know
if I've ever said that I'm a
stepmom. I'm not a mom, mom. But
I'm stepmom and I don't think I
don't think that was something I
said. But the times that I
wanted to say it. It felt like
like this, this, this emotional
response was going to like take
over whatever else was going on.
Maybe I don't I don't have time
to unpack this with you. Maybe,
are you kidding me right now?
Like, you know, like the what
has gone on the earlier in the
day? You know, is there been a
lot of, you know, histrionics or
you know, and then you, then
you're gonna come out and cry
with me up place.
Henny Flynn: Yeah. And and also
that there's something there's
something in there about because
I was talking with Anton about
this before we came on the call
and and he was saying, but
sometimes, you know, for
parents, it's fair enough. It's
like, I haven't got time for
this. And I submit that's a
very, very different expression,
saying, I haven't got time for
this could potentially lead
into, we can talk about it
later. I hate setting a time to
talk about it. Yes, or, or the
other phrase that he said was,
you've got to trust me on this.
And I found that really
interesting, because that
implies that you have built
trust. Whereas, because I said,
so is a shutdown, you don't have
to have trust, you just have to
have an authoritarian rule over
what is going on. Right. So
actually, kind of as a parent,
you know, as a step parent, I
think there's something quite
interesting about just being
really aware of the impact of
those kinds of phrases, you
know, if we, you know, have
young people in our lives, you
know, just recognising how those
different phrases can sound and
where they can lead to. Right.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, I think
you're right, I think you use
the word authoritarian. And I
think that, that that's part of
it. I think there is also like a
hierarchy, which
authoritarianism is dependent on
a hierarchical structure. It's
like I am here, and I am running
this show. And so I am going to
tell you how it's gonna go.
Which is very different. I agree
with you, that is different than
saying, I don't have time for
this now. But we can circle back
later tonight, or whatever, or
trust me, you know, trust me.
You know, you've, it feels so
different. I mean, you're right,
that in kind of both of those
cases, what you're looking at,
is, is trust either being built
or having been built. So, you
know, trust being built is I
don't have time for this now.
But I can come back to this
later and then actually doing
that. That's building trust. And
then, you know, trust me, we
that that has happened in the
past.
Henny Flynn: Yeah. I love that.
I love that question. And, yes,
and where, where the kind of
shutdown statement comes from is
a place of I don't need to build
trust, because, yes, I have the
authority. And if I'm, it's this
sort of it demands this
unquestioning acceptance of that
authority. And I think that is
where starts to become a little
bit sort of dangerous. And I
suppose it's also like we might,
you know, maybe as we look back
on our childhood, we might not
necessarily remember hearing
those exact words or like you
said, as, you know, parental
figures or, you know,
caregivers, we might not
necessarily have used those
words, but there's something
about the essence of it, of that
unquestioning demand for, you
know, my authority to be, you
know, followed that I think, is
what can lead to some quite
uncomfortable behaviours in
adulthood because we stop
trusting our selves, or stop
believing that we are able to
question authority. It can lead
to that quite blinkered. Yes.
Thinking because, because that's
what keeps us safe. It might be
what kept us safe as a child was
not to challenge.
Susan McCulley: Right. Yes. So
that I think there's two sides
of it. I think you're absolutely
right. There's, there's the part
of do I do I question? What is
being told me or asked of me or
anything like that? It's funny
that this morning, I was
thinking about our conversation.
And I had this recollection.
When I was like school age, kid
and my mother had said, wear a
coat. Put this coat on. It's
cold. My husband often Joe joke
is like put a coat on mommy's
cold. So that's what my mother
said, put a coat on mommy's
cold. And so I put on the coat
to go to the, to the bus stop.
And I got outside and I was
like, This is ridiculous. It's
not cold. So I took the coat,
and I stuffed it in the mailbox.
And I thought it was brilliant.
Came back on the way home, pull
it out of a mailbox, like,
right? Well, turns out, my dad
had seen me do it from the
window. And I got in trouble.
Because I had my mother had told
me something and I had
questioned it. Right, I had said
in a minute. It's not it's not
that cold. And I'm not called.
You know? So there's the
questioning, there's also
there's the questioning of the
outside, but then there's also
the becomes the distrust of my
own experience, my own emotions,
my own sensations, my own
thoughts, I start to go out
there to look for the answer.
Yeah. Tell me what do I think?
What am I what how do I feel
about this? Yeah. How do I, you
know,
Henny Flynn: yeah, and it's the,
it's so interesting, because
this is where it becomes this,
the reinforcement of, of other
narratives that we've absorbed.
And if we have this overarching
message, it's really why I kind
of left this one to, to the end
of this little sort of series,
because it just feels like it is
such an overarching one. That it
would reinforce all of the
messaging, you know, all of
that, that kind of limited
thinking or, as you say, the,
the, the sort of urge to look
outside of ourselves for
external validation, this kind
of Locus of Control sitting, you
know, extrinsic from us, and,
and not trusting what is going
on inside our own body. And
actually, that is where we see
such conflict. I mean, I really,
I see that a lot with clients
where they're, they've absorbed
a message, or a story about
needing validation externally,
but actually, the the conflict
is that their inner voice is
saying something completely
different. They just don't know
how to hear it.
Susan McCulley: Right. Yeah, I
that's, I think that's
absolutely right. And yeah, I
mean, it's it. Yeah, I think it
can be, it can be tricky,
because we all we need, we do
need other people to help us see
ourselves. Right? We do need
approval, we do need that.
There's that, you know, there
can be this feeling of like, I'm
here, I don't need.
Henny Flynn: We're not an I
know, man, we are
Susan McCulley: not we're not
and so. So there's a there's a
young person who's in my
purview, and he's an athlete,
and he tends to be super self
critical and never thinks he's
good enough. And it's only that
he starts to change his mind if
he's hearing it from somebody
else. And, and I, when I hear
about that, or when I observe
that I have a sort of mixed
feelings is like part of me, I
totally get it. I don't know,
I'm 14. And what do I know about
this sport, I'm playing or
whatever. But there's part of me
that just my heart breaks a
little and just like oh, darlin,
what do you think? Like, how
does it feel to you when you
make that shot? And if nobody
else saw it, how would it feel
to you? Right. And so So I think
that it is it is a little
tricky. But as always, when we
swing 100% in one direction, you
know, that's, it's that's not
that's not where thriving lies.
Right?
Henny Flynn: As I'm listening to
you. I'm mindful of something
that I think we've touched on
either in email or in this
conversation maybe about the
impact of this shutting down of
the internal awareness of our
inner experience or our or in a
voice on, on the body on like
how we kind of physically show
up in the world or because so my
as I'm sort of saying the same
kind of thing, because, you
know, actually, if we don't
listen to our bodies if we learn
not to listen to that inner
voice, we can end up really
hurting ourselves, you know, end
up not responding when something
is painful, for example, just
thinking about that athlete, if
that athlete isn't aware, and
really listening to their body,
you can end up with a really
serious injury. You know, that's
a very practical thing, but you
can also end up with, you know,
deep emotional damage as well.
If we're, if we're not listening
to when something doesn't feel
right, emotionally.
Susan McCulley: Sure. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, emotionally.
It mean, physically. I mean,
just as a woman in the world,
how many times did I override my
knowing that something didn't
feel okay, or right, or? Yeah.
And, and said, Okay, or said
yes, either explicitly or
implicitly, to something that
was not a yes. For me. And so I
yeah, I think that it is, it's
dangerous. And yeah, I mean, my
whole career really, it was
based on this whole question,
was this desire to turn that
around for people who perhaps
had, like me, been looking at
externally for direction, and I
guess guidance, information, how
to do it, right kind of thing.
And focusing on as much as we
possibly can on just what's
happening inside of you. So
moving, for example, with less
focus on what you're doing, but
how it feels, and, and playing
with different, different what's
right, different different ways
of moving with, but with a pure
intention of just seeing how it
feels.
Henny Flynn: I mean, that's
incredibly freeing, actually,
just listening to you there.
Immediately, it makes me want to
close my eyes and just feel
well, how is it for me to be sat
here at this desk? What does i
body feel like that? And, and
when I sort of then build in
what you're saying about, like,
how does movement feel, rather
than looking at someone else in
the room or on the screen going,
but they can lift their arm
right up?
Susan McCulley: Right? Yeah,
exactly. Exactly. It's like this
whole? Yeah, the whole thing
around doing it, right. Which,
yes, and, and getting approval
for doing it. Doing it, right.
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's huge. I
mean, it's funny, I'm talking to
you. Now I'm sitting on the
floor. And I sit on the floor,
with the intention of listening
to my body. And just because the
floor is not as comfortable is
like, a chair that's hugging my
whole little self. I'm going to
be moving around, because I'm
going to listen to my body and
when my ankle starts to feel a
little crampy, then I moved to a
different position, right? And
it's a constant dialogue between
how I'm sitting and what I'm
feeling, is this this, you know,
yeah, so, but man, those those,
those messages really die hard.
And it is so challenging to, for
me to really fully embody and
embrace my own experience to the
you know, just to say, okay,
that's not that this is, this is
what it is for me right now. So
yeah.
Henny Flynn: And I think so.
There's this this very strong
wrong sort of thread here where
we, the risk is that when that
becomes an internalised message
from an authority figure, it
becomes our conditioning, we
stop being able to think for
ourselves, or at least not so
sort of fully and completely,
that we're able to challenge
what we might consider to be
authority figures as we're
growing into adulthood. And then
the other side of it is that
perhaps it makes us rebel. You
know, perhaps it's also the
thing that makes us dig our
heels in shout, no. But my sort
of feet, and there's a part of
me that's like, like, do it, you
know, in the same way that you
know, my response to that person
in that meeting, you know, I
might not respond to that person
in the meeting in the same way
now, because I feel so much more
connected, that the time was
very, like, heightened, and I
was like, No, you do not have
the right to say that to me. I
didn't really shout. But, but
actually, that rebellious sort
of response might not be what
really services either. Right,
right. Yeah. Because really
what? You know, I think now, I
would have said, It's curious.
You want me to stop crying?
Susan McCulley: Yes.
Interesting. Interesting. Yes.
Henny Flynn: But, yeah, but that
rebellious sort of thing,
because actually, that's kind of
coming from that adolescent
energy. Sure. Sure. And we know
we hold that.
Susan McCulley: Yes. Yeah. It
is. Yeah. I appreciate that. The
Yeah. So the other thing that's
coming up for me is that as we
have experience, with ourselves
and with others. For me, there's
a discernment about
communication. Right. And so, I
mean, I don't I don't think that
this was, I had access to this
as a kid. But as you say, now,
I'm just like, Oh, interesting.
You want me to wear a coat
today? That feels really
important to you? And
interesting, and, and, you know,
how can how can how do I
interpret that? Like, it's like,
oh, she cares about me, she
thinks that it's important.
Right, and so but this can
happen inside of ourselves, too.
Right? That this is part of, to
me why embodiment and and really
cultivating our own relationship
with our own experience. Is that
that we can start to uncover
layer. Oh, I see. You are
irritated with every buddy right
now. And you? And I'm saying
this to myself, right? And I
realised that yes, that happens
right before dinner. When you
you're hungry, you're tired,
you've had a long day, and
everything's rubbing you the
wrong way. And so those feelings
are totally legit. And they are,
they're yours.
Henny Flynn: Yeah. And so
there's so in that example of,
I'm really frustrated with
everybody. That that can bring
us into that place where we
start to shut down the karma. To
know, sort of parts of us parts
of us that might ordinarily have
like smoothed over troubled
water, that part can become very
dominant and so we won't even
listen unless we build this
practice of the internal
conversation. It's very easy to
squash the awareness that oh
really need to eat something
because I'm being a bit Trixie
right now. I've got to get some
food in this body. Because the
that critical part just goes now
this is what I'm feeling and yes
Susan McCulley: yeah, because I
sexy. I am beat Trixie, I am
completely borrowing that
instantly. Yes. Yeah. Right.
That's interesting. So there is
a squashing that's going on in
that in that, yes, internal
squashing. But it's not. It's
sort of the more grounded
centred part that's getting the
squashing rather than the tender
hurting part.
Henny Flynn: Yeah. Yeah,
exactly. And so and I think the
same thing is playing out in a
in a parental child dynamic. The
child is getting squashed. And
so we then absorb that message.
And we squash our own internal
child. Yeah, you know, the part
that goes, but I'm frightened,
or I don't I really don't like
that person. Or don't think this
feels like the right place for
me to be in right now. Squash
it, don't listen to it. You
know, we, we understand from
these external sources that this
is what we're meant to be doing.
And so because they said so
that's what we're doing. I also
I was sort of thinking about oh,
there were there were two
things. Actually. One was a
really interesting phrase where
I did a bit of research to see
like, whether it has this been
so analyse an interesting there
has been there has been a bit of
work on it. One of the papers, I
read academic papers was talking
about how obedience equals love.
We learn that obedience equals
love. So as a child, we are
obedient to the authority
figure. And we learn that art
through our obedience, that is
how we express love. And get
love and get love.
Susan McCulley: I mean, to me,
it's yeah, like, yes, like you.
Yeah, you are going to protect
me. And, you know, and I, my
sense of belonging comes from
obedience. Yeah. And yeah, and I
think you're right, too. I'm
also saying I love you because
I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say
Good. Yes, I'm doing what you're
doing what you said, I'm doing
what you said. Yeah.
Henny Flynn: And I think it sort
of goes beyond that sort of that
aspect of the imposter complex,
you know, the whole people
pleasing thing it goes, it goes
a bit into, you know, some
behaviour where you're
potentially really denying the
truth of what is actually going
on. And then the other thing
that I was thinking about was
the I had to look this up. Cuz I
was quiz quiz could could look,
I know what quiz anyway, what
the actual expression is, Chris
custodiet, Ipsos Custodes Deus
who guards the guards. So who is
to say that what is being said
is right, right. You know, this,
this kind of like this
philosophical question, which
actually, I think kids are
really good at challenging,
which is like, Well, how do you
know so? Yeah, yeah. So so. And,
and as adults, there's this kind
of, you know, I think it's part
of our job is to, is to say,
well, this is what I feel is
right. I might be wrong, but
let's go with it.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, yeah.
Henny Flynn: I don't know. I
just think that there's sort of
something quite interesting
about when we become so
convinced of our own authority.
I think often it means that
we're losing sight of the fact
that there could be another way
of thinking being doing
Susan McCulley: isn't it
interesting that what that what
you're saying here really
reminds me of the the idea of
beginner's mind. And I'm I might
not have the phrase exactly
right. But in in the beginner's
mind, there are many ways and in
the experts mind, there is only
one, something like that. And,
and I, I love that. And I also
see and the longer I'm on the
planet, the more expertise my
mind can get and how important
it is for me to be doing things
or either approaching old things
with a more beginner II way or
doing things as a beginner and
allowing myself to be a And at,
you know, expansive, like so
many possibilities kind of
situation. Yeah. I wasn't got,
you know, I was not I was not
one to question when I was
young, you know, say like, Well,
why was not a big? I think I
probably because it was not a
welcomed question in in the, in
the the environment I grew up
in. But yeah, that's
Henny Flynn: demonstrated in the
fact that you took the coat off
and tucked it in the mailbox.
Yeah. So yes. The coat off went
no, it's
Susan McCulley: right, exactly.
It's like I was trying to get it
both ways,
Henny Flynn: I guess. Yeah,
exactly. And I think that that
is what
Susan McCulley: can happen is
that there can be this kind of
slippery, sneaky kind of thing
is like, cannot how do I, on one
level up from your percepts
perspective, I'm doing what you
say. But then I'm also kind of
saying,
Henny Flynn: and so bring that
forward into adulthood into the
workplace, for example. And if
we get an authoritarian leader,
which, you know, quite frankly,
I've definitely worked with
them. I expect most of us have.
And, and you get that sort of
slippery kind of like, okay,
like, and I have definitely
worked with people who have sat
in meetings and gone. Yeah,
yeah. And then walked out and
gone. We're not doing that.
Yeah, you know, me, he's quite
simple creature who's just
sitting there going? No. No, it
doesn't make sense. I don't get
it.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, yeah. And,
you know, and when faced with
that, the authoritarian is is
most likely to be like, No,
you're i You didn't hear me,
perhaps when I said that. This
is what we're gonna do. Yeah.
Um, isn't that interesting?
Yeah. So yeah. Impact
Henny Flynn: Assessments, sorry,
the impact on an organisation of
people saying yes, and doing No,
is catastrophic, actually, just
wasting so much time? And I
think in any in their
relationship, as well. I mean,
fundamentally, I suppose what
we're coming to hear is the
importance for good
communication within ourselves,
within our relationships, and,
you know, within the working
environment, yeah.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah. I
think that's right. And so one
of the the examples that I
wanted to bring forward in our
conversation was an, on a more
internal level. Sometimes we are
we find ourselves in situations
where, what we used to
understand in our sensations, to
mean a particular thing. Stops
meaning the the meaning starts
to change. So here's the example
is I, about a year ago, and
then, before that, a year and a
half ago, a year and a half
before that. I broke my foot.
And there were a whole bunch of
sensations, as you can imagine,
around that. Both of those
experiences, they were physical
sensations, they were emotional
sensations, and they were mental
calculations. It's like what is
happening inside my body. And
over time, I am gratefully and
tremendously healed, my body is
working great. And every once in
a while I get a sensation in my
foot that I have, I have babies
basically, because of the injury
have been trained to it to
associate a particular meaning,
like something's wrong, when
actually it's a little little
sensation that five years ago, I
probably wouldn't have even
noticed. But now all the alarms
go off all the all the you know,
panic and the worry and the
setting up of the doctor's
appointments and all of that
kind of thing. And what I've
read, I've read a lot of
research and our ability to
sense ourselves from the inside
is called interoception. So this
is our internal use, you know,
what makes it what allows us to
sense that we're hungry and have
to use the bathroom and All of
those kinds of things are all
interoception. And when there
has been trauma in particular,
and sort of ironically, if
you've been very trained in
somatic work so that you're
really attentive to your body,
it can, it can kind of turn
around on itself and require you
to re evaluate the
communication. This is sort of
what I was alluding to before.
It's like, I can, when my mom
tells me to wear a coat, I can,
I can say, in my head, she's
saying that because she loves
me, and she wants to meet me to
be okay. And so now when I feel
a sensation in my foot, I am
getting I get curious about
like, what is actually what is
it actually saying? Right? So
Henny Flynn: then leaping into
this can be something wrong,
because that's right. That's how
I learned what this message.
Susan McCulley: That's right.
You're right. That's what the
injury taught taught. And now,
there's got to be some
retraining. And, and I so I
think in our relationship with
ourselves, but the same thing
holds true for for all of our
relationships is that can we get
curious about what what is
actually being communicated
here? What is my body actually
telling me? What is my partner,
my friend actually telling me?
Henny Flynn: What's actually
being said in that meeting? In
the, you know, 20 of your
building? Yeah.
Susan McCulley: Gosh, it's so
complicated to I mean, it's
complicated enough with just one
person or two people, but a room
full of 20 people, and all of
them are wrapped up, alright.
Yeah, I don't I don't I don't
miss those days.
Henny Flynn: But, uh, but learnt
an awful lot while I was there
Sure. Should not have been
there. But the oh, there was a
little there's a little point
there. Oh, it's completely gone.
So I might edit this bit out.
There was something about the
it's completely gone.
Susan McCulley: Okay. Well,
there's, I hope a bit it'll come
back. But yeah, I think that
part of it is the complexity
part of it is communication.
Part of it is maybe our ability
to listen in a different way. So
I'll give an example from my
relationship. I know my Oh, you
got it got Oh, go Got
Henny Flynn: it. Okay. So the
thing is that when in relation
to this sort of phrase, because
I said so that this starts to
build that compassion, actually,
for what might be sitting inside
the reason why somebody would
say it, because they that the
learning that we have gathered
in our life brings us to this
point where it feels like the
only response that we can have,
we're kind of stuck in that
place of shutdown. Whereas what
you're talking about is, don't
shut it down. And also, you
know, because actually, almost
in a way, what you're saying
about with your foot by going
off into a kind of triggered
activated response. It's a bit
like shutting down the rest of
you. Yes, yeah. Whereas what
we're sort of saying is, it's
always about, you know, if we
know that we've internalised
this message in some way, this
kind of shut down message. It's
all about actually being able to
like soften and open up a bit
wider and say, Okay, well, what
is it actually telling me? What,
what are the cues I'm actually
hearing here? And the reason for
mentioning, you know, in that
sort of corporate environment,
because actually what is going
on for that person who's saying,
because I said, so, very likely.
There's some other massive thing
behind a door that nobody else
in the room knows anything
about. And they're just trying
to write firefight in the best
way that they can.
Susan McCulley: Right and
probably probably it's somebody
If, you know, given these
hierarchical situations, it's
probably somebody above them is
saying because I say so. Yeah,
you know, it all just like bumps
down down the waterfall of
Henny Flynn: just as in a family
unit, the parents probably told
it by their grandparent, by
their parent, by their parent by
their parent, and it cascades
down through the line. All
systems operate in the same way.
And as you're saying, like our
internal within, we're a system
sure system inside us. So you,
you, you were going to sort of
say about an anecdote, but yes,
Susan McCulley: right. Yes. So I
said, so for years, my beloved,
my beloved husband, I would tell
him something that I was
planning to do. And every once
in a while, he would say, Do as
you like. And what I heard was
Do as you like, you dumbass.
Henny Flynn: I was gonna say, I
don't care.
Susan McCulley: You and me, baby
that, but there was that was
not. But that was not what I
heard. And what was so great was
after I mean, an embarrassingly
long amount of time. I said, you
know, when you say that? I hear
do is you like, you don't mess?
And he says, oh, no, no, no,
that's not at all I am saying I
want you to do as you like. But
then he sort of laughed and
said, and also maybe a little
bit, that's not what I would do.
Right? So it's connected with
like, you know, you know,
because I say so it's like,
that's not what I would do. You
know, that's sort of like the
watered down version. But what
was so great about it was that I
went, we went into an inquiry
together. And we looked at it
and I said, what, what have
landed with me, he said, what he
meant to say, you know, and, and
also what other things that
might be under the surface. And
now, now we say it all the time,
but we say it with a very
different energy. It's more
like, do as you like, you know,
Henny Flynn: is actually within
that thing of it might not be
what I would do. Fair enough.
Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm
not you you have a completely
different set of eyes influences
from me, and you are a very
different person. And that's a
wonderful thing. Yes. You know,
but the dude you like you, dum,
dum. Very difficult for a
British person to say. Dumb ass.
Boss. You know, that's, that's
judgmental. Whereas the other
one is kind of like, you know,
I'm, I'm different from you.
Yeah, right. Wait,
Susan McCulley: that's Yeah.
Right. It's like you're talking
about the parental messages of
like, you've got to trust me,
which is not the same as because
I say so. Yeah, but I think but
I think I put it out there just
as an example of something that
for a really long time would
just be would really feel
painful to me, or, and, and I
didn't inquire about it for 18
years. Beautiful. And then then
to act then to say, wait a
minute, when you say that, what
do you mean,
Henny Flynn: yeah. And that
inquiry in in a relationship, so
where we feel perhaps that we're
being shut down? Or limited in
some way? The maybe might have
activated something from our
childhoods, you know, so that we
hear it in a particular way to
actually bring that inquiry, you
know, obviously, when feel safe
to do so, you know, to to ask
the question, or to say, it
makes me feel this way, is, you
know, ah, God, you know, if only
if only we did that more. Yeah,
there was a brilliant quote that
I came across, as ever can't
remember who said it, where he
said that the greatest mistake
that we can make is to believe
that others think the same way
we do. And we can take that with
any fray. He's actually because
we imbue meaning into words. So
you know, so kind of
understanding where we've, you
know, that kind of like, stay on
the focus of this topic today,
we might have internalised this
story that we need to seek
external validation. Or that we
yeah, we can't trust our own
judgement, we need to always ask
to everybody else when we're
making a decision, you know, we
meet lots of people who are who
are in that place. And actually,
what we're saying is bring that
inquiry into ourselves then and
say, Okay, what is it? That
feels tricky?
Susan McCulley: Right, right.
Henny Flynn: You know, I don't
know,
Susan McCulley: what fears are,
what feels true, what does
what's really true? Or what
feels off? You know, is either
way.
Henny Flynn: But yeah,
expressing that that is. That's
Trixie, for me to hear that.
Trixie, I knew word.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. And, and I
think I think that part of
what's tricky about being a
human with a mind is that I
think that assumption that other
people must think the same thing
is really easy. I mean, we're so
kind of trapped in in our own
perceptive experience. And so it
feels impossible that anything
could be different. And so yeah,
here is here's where the inquiry
directed in all kinds of
different directions, both
internally and externally. It's
like, wait, what's what's
actually happening here? And
Henny Flynn: this questions was
going to be, you know, how, what
happens when we break free of
that story of because I said, so
whether that's internal in a
relationship and a family
dynamic workplace. But how do we
break free and it feels to me
that this, this act of internal
or external inquiry, yeah, with
compassion, with non just, you
know, so I wonder how it would
have been, you know, as a as a
however old you were, with your
mom telling you to put your
Susan McCulley: Yeah, yeah.
Right.
Henny Flynn: To say,
Susan McCulley: yeah, why? Why
is that feel important? Yeah,
it's April. And it's lovely out?
And? Yeah, I think that that
feels exactly the thing, whether
we're, we're interpreting
messages from our own bodies,
our own minds, or the people
around us. Is just I like that.
Just keep reminding ourselves
that it doesn't necessarily
mean, you know, they don't
necessarily think aren't
thinking the same thing you're
thinking. And,
Henny Flynn: and it's okay to
challenge it's okay to
Susan McCulley: question. Yeah,
it's okay to question. Yeah,
there's, yeah, there's a great
line that a song I used in class
today that says, We question we
need to question is to grow.
And, and I think that's right,
both personally and inter
personally. And, and, and it's
been for me personally, in
regards to reinterpreting my own
physical sensation. It's been a
fascinating education to to
gather information from some
sources, and then just to really
pay attention to what what's
happening and letting myself
learn relearn, it's like
relearning language of my own
experience. And I guess a part
of my point is that that in all
relationships, those those that
language is going to be
changing. Yeah. That it is not
just like any language, you
know, the meaning of a
particular word or a phrase is
not static. It's it's
evolutionary. Yes.
Henny Flynn: Yes, the word I was
just Thinking it's like, nothing
is static, you know? Sure, sure.
And actually, that as we mature,
and our bodies start telling us
different things, you know,
knowing like, which bits do I
listen to? Which bit? Do I just
go? Okay, that's okay. I just
need stupider stretching to
help, you know, right. And, and
our emotional landscape changes.
And also like, as, you know, in
relation with others as well, we
can never assume that the other
person remains static, too.
Right? So, always allowing, this
reminds me of that conversation
we had about balance actually,
that this thing about always,
like bringing ourselves back
into that place of balance, and,
and it also speaks to
compassionate wisdom, you know,
this idea of like, well, really
listening in to ourselves, in
order to understand well, what
is really going on here? How do
I really feel? Really important?
Susan McCulley: Yeah, I love
that, that recalling going back
to the balance conversation,
because I think that one of the
things that feels really
important in regards to physical
balance, is that you're never
there. You're never there. It's,
it's, it's always a moving
thing. It's a dynamic thing.
It's a verb. It's not a noun.
And, and because I say so. It's
like the definit. It's the noun.
It's the, it's the black and
white, the binary. It's like,
right and wrong. And yes, and
no, yes. No, this is not
Henny Flynn: brilliant. dropped
them. Honestly, that was I got a
little tingle, as you said that
it's so true. That is, I think
that is why for me personally,
actually noticing what's going
on in my own body. When you just
said it again, I had this. Ah,
no, because it, it brings out a
binary response.
Susan McCulley: That's right.
That's right. And I think that
that also speaks to your
observation, that's that it can
be subservience, but it can also
be rebellion. Yeah. And, and
sometimes, as we pointed out, it
can be both Yeah. But it's, but
it's definitely pushing up
against this. It's a black and
white thing. And,
Henny Flynn: and sometimes I
think it's something I'm really
curious about, and maybe this is
for, you know, another day we
have a conversation about like,
like, anger, and you know, how
anger can be a good thing, you
know, that like, this, like, no,
getting ourselves out of a
dangerous situation, whatever it
might be. The the, the
absolutely, you know, sort of
radical No, to stuff that we see
happening in the environment.
And, and still, there is this,
how do we how do we bring
balance to that as well, so that
it it's it doesn't become like
the dominant driving energy?
Because I also don't think that
is helpful for us to know. We're
talking about being in
homeostasis. Well, anger is a
spike. Yeah. And rebellion is a
spike. I don't know this.
There's something there's
something in this which I find
personally a bit confusing
about, like when that that
righteous, that's a big word
snake.
Susan McCulley: Is this kind of
big?
Henny Flynn: rightful?
Susan McCulley: Right. Yeah, I
mean, yes, I think there are
times yeah, that's it. Yeah, it
is. It is. It is a little
slippery. And, but I think that
the observation that anger is
not a bad thing. And it often
provides the fire for change.
And, and sometimes, yeah, that
can go in a bunch of different
directions, right? It can be an
invitation to, you know, if I if
I have a blow up at somebody
when it's in the evening, and I
haven't eaten all day, or
haven't eaten all afternoon, and
I'm tired and that is like,
Okay, I don't want to do that.
And I want to be aware of what's
happening in myself so that I
can stay more grounded and more
kind. But when we see these
things that, as you say, like
they makes no sense and just a
hard No, just hard No,
Henny Flynn: that's that's a
mindful No. And I suppose that
that's what we're saying here.
That's where this sort of link
seems to be, actually is that
this this idea of because I
said, so is it is a mindless? It
feels like the messaging.
Mindless? No, it's a knee jerk.
Yeah, no, I'm shutting it down.
I'm right. There is no argument.
There's nothing more to be said
here. Great. Yeah. Whereas that,
yeah, that kind of mindful. You
know, because maybe that there
are times you know, that as we
were saying, right at the
beginning of this, there are
times where, you know, so you do
just need to save some of that
you need to trust me on this, we
just got to make this happen.
Right. And that means building
trust. With ourselves actually
being able to say that to
ourselves, like you need when
all the voices are in dissent,
you know, it's like as we stand
in our true, like, deep self and
being able to go, sorry,
everybody in You can trust me on
this. This is, this is what is
right for us. Yeah. Yeah. Rather
than being overwhelmed by the
inner critic, or whoever it is,
that's dominating. Yeah. Wow, I
feel like we've sort of come to
an end.
Susan McCulley: No, I like it, I
think. I think there, there is a
lot of energy behind this
phrase. And, and it's, it's one
that's that, that we can really
see the ramifications of using
that that kind of language, in
whatever context, we use it. In
all, all the relationships, all
the permeations of relationship,
and I really appreciate this
whole series that you're doing
in that very often these phrases
and these messages that we got
are so the water that we swim in
that we don't even see them. And
so I think just just even the
small unpacking that we've done
here today, I mean, I will never
hear that phrase the same again.
And, and even if I just have it,
like right here on my, the tip
of my tongue, i i will rethink
that. And
Henny Flynn: and it's what you
said about the it's, it's the
essence of the meaning it's not
necessarily those words, is it?
That mean? I love what you said
about is the water we swim in
you're so right, you know, and I
think that that was kind of what
drove this series actually,
because I kept like coming up
against others and going like,
oh my god, that was definitely
my chart and what is that meant
to me? I thought we could we
could close with a quote from
Lady Gaga which this bring it
this is a first but she I came
across this quote and I just
thought for me it just said so
much actually and it really
speaks to what we've been
talking about. She said the
reason I don't want anyone to
control me is not because I want
to be in control. I don't want
anyone to control me because I
don't want anyone to control
anyone Wow. I mean, that is
Susan McCulley: a tip of the cap
to the lady. That is beautiful.
Really is but boy does that ever
speak to first of all, why it's
such a hard phrase to receive
and how it's used. How that that
message is used. Yeah, that's
great
Henny Flynn: and ramifications
that has socially politically
Susan McCulley: accountable.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Brilliant. Man, so great
conversations. Do you or just
like a really good meal
Henny Flynn: I hope you're
seated till next time
Susan McCulley: yes