Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hey everyone, it's Mishu and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we are talking with Jerry S. Gonzalez, a Chicago-born director celebrated for shorts like There's Something in the Woods, Intergalactic Pizza Boy, and The Spaghetti Man, the latter winning best short film at Spooky Empire.
audience choice at Midsommar's Scream and earning him a Troma Diploma. He's currently in post-production on his short, Hamster in My Head, while also developing a feature film, Big Spooky House. Beyond his indie projects, Cherry has also worked on major productions including Chicago Med and P.E.D., Empire, Shameless, The Trial of the Chicago 7, and The Bear. So what do we chat about? In the episode we talked about the grind of making shorts that sometimes don't find an audience and the
Resilience it takes just keep creating anyway and how persistence led to his upcoming feature as well as his buzzy new short hamster in my head we also chat about his love of practical effects and VFX the Chicago community and what it means to put your own art into the world and Practice and putting your weird out there. So if you're into that stuff, keep on listening You can follow Jerry on Instagram at Jerry s guns and I'll include that info in the show notes. So here it is
Me and Jerry hope you enjoy.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (02:03.83)
I would say that I think my heart is in really good place right now in terms of creativity and that, you know, it's just a career wise, a lot of things are just picking up momentum, which I just, I'm just enjoying, especially because like, you know, the last maybe four-ish years, I've been sort of like in a weird creative space or creative rut where, you know, I wasn't sure if this was going to work out and you know, it's just like,
you make these short films and you're not entirely sure who's going to see them. And you hope a lot of people see these films and, you know, people can see what you can do so you can do the next one. But yeah, there has been times where it's like put maybe like one or two years into a short film and just for it to just like not get anywhere in festivals or not win any awards. So it's, it's actually, it's very validating that to be in this position where it's like, I've accumulated so many films under my belt and because I've done that.
is impress the right people that are bringing me to the next step and they want me to direct a feature.
I'm so happy to hear. think the kind of the aphorism is it only takes one, right? It only takes one person to like sort of see something and, you know, open a door, take a meeting, et cetera. When you do hit those drive spells where it's like you put a year, two years of labor and I've seen like Intergalactic Pizza Boy and there's something in the woods, like very, like beautifully done self-motivated editing. And I think I don't know if you do blender work or.
CG work. it's like all on you and then to kind of maybe, or different projects, not even those, but different projects, you know, one or two years into some of these projects, like how do you deal with the voice that's like, man, this didn't make much movement. Should I just quit? Like, how did you deal with the sort of the dark night of the soul of those moments when you're just kind of like, damn, this didn't get traction as I thought it could.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (03:49.848)
I think the main thing is just to release something. Cause I think that is just more than what anyone else can do really. Cause most people, you know, if they hit like a roadblock, they might just figure like, okay, this is going nowhere. No one's going to want to see this. I mean, just make the film. You never know what kind of audience you're going to grab with it. So you might as well just throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.
I do think, I don't know if we've talked about it in past, like there's a certain like audience validation or audience, you know, width, you know, people seeing it is, is, is one thing that kind of might help with traditional success. But at the end of the day, like that's almost like beyond your ability, you know what I mean? Like you can't dictate where an audience will show up or if it's your kind of project taps into something that's relevant in the current mood or zeitgeist or vibe, you know what I mean?
Yeah, I think we all kind of strive for perfection and we really don't need to do that. I mean, I think the best advice I can give to a filmmaker is just go to film festivals and see what other movies are in these festivals. like, you open surprise at like the different levels of quality. And I think there's something in there where it's like, it's very motivating and inspirational and you watch these things. It's like, I could do that. And, you know, especially if you go to like horror centric.
festivals. It's like people just want to see schlocky things. They just want to see people being chopped up and you know the bar is set pretty low so it's like you just put something zany on the screen.
So do you find that you're generally more drawn toward like as an antidote toward when you do get down and kind of feel bad for maybe something not making, you know, attraction, you're like, well, that doesn't really matter because I just better make the next thing because people are already doing stuff that's weird, schlocky, strange, doesn't make sense. And they might be getting some growth and movement. is that something that you're like, nah, just keep, keep moving forward and just do the work instead of like worrying so much.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (05:56.908)
Yeah, I mean, like I don't honestly like worry that much. think, you know, we as creatives, we all have our own voice and like I have my own voice and you know, like I'm making the films that I want to see and I want to make. So I want to put that into the world and I can only hope that, you know, other people would like to see it too. So, you know, I don't think it's much of like a competition. I don't try to compare myself to other people. just try to, you know, put the weird art that I want to put.
into this world.
And like, how did you get into like a CG work? Cause you, you, you write direct at it and also do some of the computer graphics for some of your, your shorts. Do most of your projects involve some degree of, you know, not only puppet work, but CG work.
You know when you are a low budget filmmaker you wear a lot of hats. effects have always interested me and it's things that I've kind of picked up. It's like well if you want to do this on like you want to make this Hollywood looking thing you have to learn how to do A, B, and C. So just learning basic after effects and just simple tricks that can really elevate your work. I, you know I've
accumulated a good amount of After Effects knowledge and I'm able to do a lot of my own VFX. With my new film, Hamster, in my head, it's like the first film I actually decided to delegate some other effects to other companies because it's like there's a lot I can do, but there's a lot of stuff I can't do. I would rather trust someone who's like their main thing is VFX to really handle those kinds of things. And with Hamster, there was like some minor CG work that just needed to be fixed, like actual like modeling computer, like 3D modeling and
Jerry S. Gonzalez (07:39.712)
That kind of CG.
How was that experience? that like sort of the first time you've done sort of the handoff when it comes to say CG? Like what was your, know, a trepidation Beyonce might add an extra line item on the budget. Like what was your experience with just having a lot of experience doing your own work? What was that like for you?
I mean, like think it's gotten easier over the years. The more that like I surround myself with people that are better than me. And like, that's always my goal is that like, I always want to be in a position where I can hand stuff off to other people and do that and do that. I would say the first film that I made outside of college when I graduated, it was just me, the DP and the two actors. And we were just in the middle of the woods and that was, that was our crew. And like now, like with hamster in my head, I...
It's like there's over a hundred something people that worked on that film over the course of two years. You know, I'm very grateful that there's, I'm in a city as, as, community focused as Chicago and we all just want to help each other out. We all just want to make something that's cool and everyone is just super talented. So I can be like, all right, I feel comfortable letting you do this and you do this and
Like for the feature film, like I've gotten a name for doing puppet stuff, but like the producers on my feature film, they're like, we don't want you doing puppet stuff. We want you to just focus on directing and just creating this world. like, okay, you know, and I definitely think there's people here in Chicago that could do puppet stuff way better than me. So let them have it. I don't mind that.
Mishu Hilmy (09:08.492)
I think it's definitely like a sign of growth when it's like you learn to focus on what the project might demand, but I also think there's something beautiful of. Yeah, I can do technically all or most of it, but it becomes a different or potentially even better experience for you to be able to like hand that off. Like for example, with Hamster in my head, like what was your approach to getting that many people interested in and engaged with the kind of the concept. So this is a short film. If you want to sort of maybe give some background as to.
know what's it about. it in post-production or is it on festival run?
So we just shot our last day of pickup shots and reshoots. I literally just downloaded the footage. Guys have it. I'm ready to edit it, plop it in the timeline, and I'm hoping to have picture lock by the end of the week. I'm super excited about that.
And are you also cutting it?
I'm also cutting it. This was the first project I decided to work with another editor on. And, you know, it's, this is very much like a pro bono project. And I guess to answer your other question, like the way that I've gotten so many people to work on this, and I think is an attribute to my other work, like how successful my last film did, The Spaghetti Man. And like people were able to see that and they're like, whatever you do for the next one, I'm in. And like, that's great. But also the fact that like, I do meet a lot of new people when I go to networking events.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (10:25.986)
such as yourself and just developing my click elevator pitch. Like I've created, like in my head there's like, these are the beats I need to take. Cause it's like, I curate like a small roller coaster when I say this pitch and I could break down the pitch that I have and just what, each part really does. And I tell people it's like, well, hamster my head is about a hamster that escapes a mad scientist lab in a human mech suit. you know, the mech suit is.
Like it looks human, but in the head of this mech suit is a tiny little hamster and he has, he's dialing these tiny little levers and then he's using his new robot body to go on dates. Like that sounds like the ramblings of a mad man. And the thing is like, can go one or two ways. And this is something that I learned when I was started pitching here in the city with like my movie Intergalactic Pizza Boy. It's like, you've got to have that like something under your belt to kind of prove yourself first. mean, there's.
I've heard like a lot of weird pitches, but like you have to be able to be like, I'm actually doing this. Cause it's like, first thing is like, this sounds insane. And it's like, this sounds like a cartoon. It's like, but it's not a cartoon. It's like, what? This is not a cartoon. Tell me more. And then, know, having something that is grounded as like, and relatable as like, he's trying to use his robot body to go on dates. And like, that's the one that kind of reels them back in. It's like, okay, so this is a very absurd premise, but at the end of the day, it's something that I can relate to.
Is the hamster going on dates with humans or other hamsters or other hamsters in mech suits?
Maybe you watch the film and find out.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (12:01.886)
I can't tell you. He's just so absurd. He's just such this weird anomaly that, you know, he's a hamster at the end of the day, but at the same time, like having the flexibility to be a human and like go out in the world and like succeed at life. It's like, he doesn't really know where he stands. And I think that's something that we were going to explore in this short.
That'll get-
Mishu Hilmy (12:25.312)
that's cool. You know what they say, write what you know and art imitates life. So I think maybe inside of solid.
I go on a lot of dates. Cha cha.
Yeah. Great. then, I'm curious, cause like, think you, do play around with a distinct style, right? People are asking, wait, this isn't a cartoon. This is live action. And I think similar, like intergalactic pizza boy, the spaghetti man can give off like a sort of adult swim stylistic energy. So I'm curious, like, where do you find your point of view developing? You know, what sort of the intentionality, like how have you been drawn toward a very sort of distinct kind of Jerry point of view?
mean, that's a really hard question to answer. I would just say that like growing up, I was just a fan of movies that felt like cartoons and I thought those were like the funniest movies like Kung Fu Hustle. And it's like, there's something really endearing and just like, especially when you try to get everything in camera too. And you know, that's always something that I find as a challenge. It's like, you know, cause like with Hamster in my head, I was inspired by like pulp art.
So like these like 1950s, 1960s, like pulp covers, and one of the covers has like a rat controlling a brain. And that is almost also like pinky in the brain. So in our cultural zeitgeist, in our subconscious, we kind of have this like image of like a rat controlling a brain or something. I wouldn't want hamsters, because like I grew up with hamsters. I just like hamsters more.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (13:49.388)
So, mean, but also that also conjures up some images of like, yeah, sometimes I feel like I have a hamster in my head. Like I'd hamster like on a wheel just like trudging along. it's like, I I've always approached my work as just weird, but heartfelt, just trying to find the humanity and emotional core to something that's other worldly. Right.
Yeah. Cause I think like, for example, with the spaghetti man, what ostensibly the opening act is like, Oh, this is going to be sort of an interesting horror. And then it sort of turns into something that's a little bit more empathetic, which is I think kind of aligns with that vision. And like for you, when it comes to say like casting actors in such a stylized world, like how do you approach your casting? How do you get the actors on the same page of like the tone of the world? Given that it seems like it's a little bit more heightened stylistically.
I just tell my actors to go for it. Spaghetti Man was interesting because I was, the way that I conduct auditions, I just do like self tapes. I have like a separate email address just for people to send me self tapes. And I was looking for actors that could play the Spaghetti Man. I had like every audition that came my way, there was one actor that was this tall and another actor was taller and another actor was taller until finally there was another actor who was taller.
but also he had a background in clowning. And I was like, that's amazing. That's something that I would love to see kind of blended into this. And I think that's like a perfect fit. And I remember the audition tape being like, I need you to be scary, but I also need you to send me a number of you dancing. So I feel like I try to get the vibe, you know, I love working with people that just get me. Right, right. Right. Cause I think there's a lot of people that don't get.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (15:35.81)
those are the, and I feel like I have such long lasting relationships with people that just like we were on the same page. They're picking up what I'm putting down. Like before I even suggest something, they're like, I want to do this. I'm like, yes, do that. And that's such a good gift for a director.
I think it's sort of that, you know, being down, the eff it, the fuck it-ness of it. And then like, for example, say you do see some resumes or some self-tapes and it's like, all right, I want to call up this actor, maybe do an offer. Like, how do you go about that process to at least gauge or align as early as possible to see like, all right, on paper in audition, they seem like they're really know what the deal is. Do you have a sort of secondary filter measure?
When you're talking to actors to go, right, let's see before casting or hiring them, are they, are we on the same page or is that not so much an issue?
It's not been much of an issue. just sort of kind of get a vibe from people. I mean, like as a director, I'm trying to make it my goal to like at least treat my actors to like lunch or like coffee or something just so we can chat and just sort of like, you know, cause like you're going to be working with these people for a long time and you want to make sure that like you're compatible with them. I think that's just the main thing.
And then like, got a pretty solid pipeline. think there's something really empowering about like writing, directing, producing, and then editing. think being your own editor teaches you so much on like what the tricky shots during any production. So you don't lose it. think an editor's mindset is like super helpful, but like what's your approach when it comes to say getting the idea, writing the script, like how does that all sort of transpire for you?
Jerry S. Gonzalez (17:13.23)
Well, I'm trying to do less of everything. That's the main thing. But I guess like the way that I would, I have approached these films was just like, you know, I get an idea in some random way. I mean, different ways, different things inspire me in different ways. I'm really redundant. And you know, at first I like to write a script and you know, I'll kind of sit on that script for a bit and then like I'll read it again, read it again.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (17:42.856)
And eventually I try to get eyes on it. You know, I try to send it off to people that I trust. Like with Big Spooky House, like I was like, this is my first feature. I got to make sure it's good. So I actually got a bunch of my actor friends together and we sat down for a table read. I mean, it sucks. Cause like, I would love to cast them in the movie, but like, it's just politics with that. Can't do that. But I mean, I hope it's not personal. No, I want, I want to work with these people so bad. And I love working with these people.
Calendars and all that, you
Jerry S. Gonzalez (18:12.662)
We had a read through and it was so electric. I wish people could see it, but just, you you kind of figure out what works, what doesn't work. like, think at this point with big spooky house, at least 90 % of it works, which is, which is great. And I think there's some, some plot things and some characters things that just need to be ironed out a little bit. But I mean, it's in such a good place that we can at least keep all the bones and like keep moving forward. And I I'm pretty sure.
Like with scripts, like you don't just finish the script day one. I think you're writing and you're rewriting up until you start filming for the most part in some cases. mean, it's not great for everybody, but it's like, you know, you, I'm always, constantly getting new ideas. And even with hamster, there's some lines that still need to be ADR. There's some like narration and I'm still thinking about that. I'm still probably going to rewrite that. And until we get into the booth.
At some point you have to like let go. It's like, okay, it's done. It's done. No more.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. think, yeah, especially when it comes to say like production, that flexibility is definitely necessary. Like if your script's 90, 95 there, that's like a real strong, strong place to be when it comes to say production.
Yeah. And I'm just hoping that maybe I can like, like in my mind, I'm like, I can go crazier. I don't want to go wilder. I want to just like put the entire kitchen sink and then sound like, but also the budget.
Mishu Hilmy (19:36.878)
Right, right, right. Yeah. Like I am curious because like I love the save as functionality and I don't know when your production dates are, if you've locked them in, like, you given yourself permission to do like a save as version or it's like the budget can be whatever. And maybe there are discoveries from those like zany additive elements that you can go actually, you know, this is kind of wild, but we might be able to do a DIY or low budget version, but to sort of prevent generation.
You know, don't want to prevent generation before you even started. like, do you permit yourself to like do a save as version just for like fun?
Yeah, I mean, there's parts in like Big Spooky House that I like, I wrote like a section where I'm like, we can cut this if we want, but if we can do that, it would be really cool. And I like to surround myself with people that are very scrappy, like people that like we could just think on the fly and you know, we don't just compromise our visions, like especially like on hamster. mean, like once people see that we're doing like different type of things.
for every single shot. We're doing every single trick in the book and I hope people appreciate that. you know, it's, I think something that kind of excites me. It's like, we want to make Big Spooky House a live action cartoon. you know, that sounds like a lot of money, but like, I'm really trying to work with people that, you know, can think outside the box and be like, you know, we can make this look like this for just, if we use duct tape and string, it's like, perfect. I love that. You know, it works. Let's do that.
And then for like your read through, you said it was kind of an electric experience. How is, at least for this feature script, what was the read through process in terms of getting feedback? I imagine some of it's intuitive where you're just sitting there and you're like, oh shit, this line's dragging or we're losing a lot of momentum, you know, on page 50 to page 60. like, what's been your approach for say you just got done reading the whole script around getting feedback.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (21:33.826)
Yeah, I mean, like I'm, I'm open to many different voices and like it's for me, it was like all about collecting data and just like, I had it where we had like survey forms that were digital, where it could be anonymous, you know, like I obviously I have like a lot of friends in the audience. So it's like, you don't need to hurt my feet. You don't have to worry about hurting my feelings. You could just say what you want to say. And yeah, most of it was extremely positive.
some things, there were some comments where I'm like, really? And like, there was like one person that just absolutely hated it. This felt like they could change every single thing. And I think another way to gauge like audience participation and like reactions was like the amount of clapping some scenes got. And like some of the scenes that got claps, this person was like, you should take this out. I'm like, nope, it got claps. It's staying in. I'm sorry. Maybe this movie is not for you.
And I think in general, your work also has like a comedic bent. you done any sort of like a stage or theatrical or performing, or do you kind of mine from your own creative comedic? Well, I'm always curious when people do create comedy work, like what their background is when it comes to writing, you know, funny things.
I'm just funny. Yeah. When I was in high school, I did theater. So of course I was a theater kid in high school. then, cause I mean, it was the only way to be like, I want to do film. How do I get to doing film? And I felt theater was like the only way to do that. So I was like in all the musicals. And then when I graduated, I didn't really return to acting right away. I...
In college, I kept doing like sketches. I mean, like I would step in front of the camera and, you know, be an actor if I had to be an actor in it. And from there I did a background for a very long time. But then like, I also started doing improv. So I did improv for two years and I got the chance to like, perform on a bunch of stages here in Chicago, like at Second City, the IO, the Annoyance. It was a good time. And then the band got disbanded during...
Jerry S. Gonzalez (23:45.358)
COVID, but I mean, we all keep in touch at least, but I don't think improv was really for me. just, I don't really, my brain works too slow sometimes and I do think I'm a much better, funnier writing. that's, that's.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. think I relate. Yeah. It's like, it's a good experience to kind of know what works for you, what does. And think partly one reason I also went into improvisation was to learn how audiences work. So then it's like, okay, this is how a group of strangers collectively react to things people do. And that can be translated pretty accurately to writing where it's like, well, if I write a line like this,
or establish a scene like that, there's going to be people scratching their heads or there's going to be people who are like alienated. And I think improv is a great area to just really reinforce like what audiences can tolerate or the degree of confusion they can accept.
And I think the main thing is when you're writing comedy, make yourself laugh. It would be embarrassing if there was a video of me when I'm writing and I'm trying each line and I'm snickering to myself. I'm like, this is the one that works. It's the one that works.
Yeah. Do you find that they are like, like which part of the process are you like most flung with lately or most joyful or most present with? what are their particular parts? Like, do you love the writing process and maybe you don't like production so much? I'm just curious.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (25:01.88)
think I flip around a lot and that's why I kind of like it that way. Because I mean, I love the energy of just being on set and it's like the only time in my life where it's like, I'm happy to wake up early in the morning and I'm happy to just like have people come up to me, ask me like a bajillion questions and I'm like, make that blue, you're crying in this scene and action. It's just, I love that chaotic energy. Usually I don't drink coffee.
but like on set I will drink coffee and like I will be completely fine. Like my anxiety when drinking coffee kind of balances out when I'm like in director mode. And it's just like, I love, it's such an adrenaline rush for me. And like, I love trying to help an actor find their aha moment. Like I'm not trying to spell it out for them. I am trying to like give them the puzzle pieces so they can find that and maybe even discover something that's way more funnier in my head. And like, you know, there's always like the happy accidents too. And man, there was like a great moment on.
set the other day. I don't know. I could tell the story. don't think it's going to make much sense until you actually see the movie. But, uh, okay. I'm going say that. maybe some spoilers for hamster in my head. Yes. But so in the short, our hero watches a commercial and you know, he gets inspired and he's like, Oh, this is the thing that's missing from my life. I am missing love and I want to be in love. But in the commercial, uh, we have like a couple and they're just like,
staring at each other and they're dreamy-eyed and they're just like, this is the best first date I've ever been on and I absolutely love you. and you know, they do this whole like telenovela romance thing and the happy accident came where costume person accidentally gave our actor or commercial actor in that scene the sweater vest that our hero wears later in the movie.
And at first I was like, he doesn't wear that costume. But then like I stopped myself. I like, actually that would be really funny because this is a hamster trying to figure out what love is and like how to go on a date. And if he sees a person in a commercial wearing the same, wearing this outfit, he's going to try to wear that same exact outfit for this date. I I it's so funny.
Mishu Hilmy (27:11.79)
Yeah. It's like a haptic accent that adds sort of layers over it. Yeah. Similar to like an actor who's, you know, doing a stage play for, you know, months on end and they can keep finding discoveries and layers. It's great when like you're making a short work that also has that degree of like discovery and layering.
And that's where I like to start. know, like I try to start off with an idea that's somewhat simple, but like, know, like how can we put a complexity into this? How could we add layers? How could we add connections and just like, you know, make this more cohesive as an entire piece.
Yeah, I think it's like also like a fun challenge and I'm curious like in terms of like, you know, talking earlier about finding an audience or say a work gets an audience or doesn't get an audience. Like where does audience fit in terms of your creative process? Like how mindful of that sort of nebulous being of there being people who are eventually going to watch this, consume this, like where does that kind of live, whether it's in your writing or your editing or you're even you're directing like, in terms of consideration.
I'm always thinking about the audience and like I if you see me at different screenings of my films like you'll find me in the very back of the theater just watching everybody maybe I'll have like my phone out to kind of get their reactions for different scenes and it's always surprising because like like audience is the majority of the movie and like the the film watching experience and like I've had some pretty like bad audience
I don't want to reprimand the people that watch my movies, but there are some audiences where it's like, really guys, really? Well, there's been some audiences that have just been like life changing and it's like, oh my God, they love me. They really love me. you know, it's like with Spaghetti Man, there's a moment in Spaghetti Man that always, always gets gasps. And then once that moment happens, there's just a dead silence in the theater. And I'm like,
Jerry S. Gonzalez (29:09.454)
Holy shit. I was like, did I really do that? And it's shocking to me. It's like, oh my goodness. Like something like I cannot quite comprehend yet. Like I think it's like outside of realm of my own comprehension. I'm like, you know, this is like a combination of things that like led up to this, this moment and that everyone in this theater is feeling. And like, I'm thinking about like how, like on the day we, there was like, we were in a parking lot and like the parking lot, we, we got permits, but it wasn't.
closed and like these were just these people that wanted to get to this gaming lounge that was nearby and they were honking at us and like you know a million other things going on that that day that were hectic but you know just the fact that you we were in a theater there's so many the the work that like a whole bunch of people put into creating this moment and it's just I don't know it's it's just I can't I don't have words for it
think it's sort of a surreal and satisfying experience because like, is a craft that I think people, especially who go into directing, like there's a desire to control a lot of it. And once you put it out to an audience, there's like no control. Like you can't control how an audience behaves. So you put all this effort into like designing, crafting, know, creating a story and emotional beats. And I still think it's surprising that it's like, I don't know, somehow that worked for this audience and they all, you know, felt really moved or.
tapped in or shocked by it.
It's a very gratifying experience. just, I, you know, it's one of the things, it's just one of the things like I look forward to. And like, I'm very curious to see how people respond to the next one and then the one after that. And I think, you know, now is more important than ever while I'm still trying to find my audience. I'm still trying to find people that want to watch these silly little movies. You know, it's just like, I'm just very, very grateful for everyone that's like on this train with me.
Mishu Hilmy (31:02.67)
when it comes to this feature that you're developing, you're sort of still, I imagine in pre-production and the writing process, so like what's, you know, how's that been transpiring? Do you have timelines? Like, what's that looking like for you?
So right now we are aiming to film late winter 2026, maybe even the spring, but one of those. yeah, my producers are hard at work. They're, they're trying to lock down stages right now. You know, it's, I mean, I'm quite flabbergasted and like honored that, you know, like there's a possibility that we can like film on a soundstage and build an entire house on it. And like, that's crazy.
That'd be awesome. But you know, there are like a moving, a lot of moving pieces and like right now it's all about trying to find the audience that wants to see this film. And that's the one thing that's kind of holding its back. But I mean, like these producers feel very confident about getting the money to make this film. they, they, the way that they want to sell this film is by, you know, selling me and my, my work. they're, just trying to get me out there as much as possible. like it's like,
My goal in life, like I'm not trying to be like an A-lister. I'm not trying to direct the next Marvel movie. I learned the term recently, a jazz famous. Like I just want to be. No one in my small circles. then like I leave the jazz club and like, no one knows who I am. And like, that's, that's, that's fine by me. And so just that's basically where we're, we're boom, words. I can't talk right now where we are right now. And.
There's a lot of other things that we've talked about. There's concept art. I like drawn and it helps at this stage. I think next we are going to try to get a production designer on to kind of help me kind of develop this world more. And I think, you know, that's going to be a lot of visuals are really going to help with investors and just kind of showing people is like, Hey, this is the movie that we're trying to make. Do you want to, you know, get on this train with me?
Mishu Hilmy (33:06.444)
And then I just have a question from let's show your producer standpoint. what, what tactically strategically does it mean to like find an audience for this? Like, like what, like, what does that mean? Like what's what practical steps are required to find slash make slash cultivate an audience for your particular vision or your sort of stylings? Like, what does that actually mean or in.
I mean, we're definitely trying to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. One thing I am happy and I would love to announce is that I'm going to be at the Milwaukee Horror Con starting September 5th through the 7th. We will have our own booth. We will have a photo op. You can, you know, get to see a little...
bit of big spooky house. you'll get to see spaghetti man. I can sign things for you if you want me to sign things for you. I'm still very much like a nobody, but like, you know, this is the first step.
Right. But even like, know, what's that's sort of a self-effacing thing to say, right? Sort of a nobody. I know it's sort of a joke, but it's like, what's sort of the spirit of that? It's kind of ultimately like a hierarchical spirit rather than like you're in service of an audience and a genre. Cause I do think you tend to do like a genre blending work, sort of comedy horror, but yeah, I think, I just, I don't know why I'm getting my high horse calling that out maybe because I relate too much of it, but Jerry, you're not a nobody. You're, you're somebody to yourself and people that matter.
to you.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (34:37.538)
Well, thank you. I greatly appreciate that.
And like, so is this feature also going to be a genre sort of blend between horror and comedy?
Yeah, I mean, that's where we're landing. It's like I said, it's going to be a very much a live action cartoon, very much a horror comedy. You know, some surprises here and there. You might have to wait and find out. But I mean, at the end of the day, it's going to be a lot of fun.
In terms of like the development process, like are these new producers or folks that you've just known around the scene or because of your previous work, they kind of proactively reached out to you.
So, I mean, I got very lucky. I mean, you've been to a Filmmaker Fridays. I met a person at Filmmaker Fridays who owned an art gallery and what they wanted to do at this art gallery was start showcasing filmmakers across Chicago. They reached out to me. They were like, you have puppets and props and films. Bring it to our art gallery. It will have a showcase for you. They gave me a space where a Didoale
Jerry S. Gonzalez (35:37.134)
I mean, let me shut them out. they gave me a space where I can actually have like a mini gallery of my work and a venue to show off like what I can do. And like, I've known these producers for a while, but like they hadn't seen anything I've done yet. And I mean, it was a public event. So they showed up, they, got to see there's something in the woods and they saw spaghetti man and they came up to me after the show and they were like, we actually, we absolutely love what you do. Let's, let's grab lunch. And that's where that,
fire them there.
And then I'm curious, like directing on set. you know, you, you're pretty empowered to like write your own scripts and, know, revise as needed even at the same day of being on set. like generally, if you don't mind me asking, what's been your approach directing wise when you're sort of just, yeah, working with actors, working with crew.
Mostly it's like, think a lot of directing is in the casting, know, just trying to find the right person to the role and just like let them go. Like if they go in a certain direction, I cast my line, I reel them back in and you know, I try to get them on the page that I'm in and you know, if they have any like arguments, you know, like I'd like to hear them out and like I try to find a good middle ground while also staying true to my integrity and like my vision.
making sure that I'm still at the end of the day keeping the set as fun and just light as possible. It is definitely a blessing to be able to direct on a film set. I greatly appreciate everyone that comes out and helps make this happen.
Mishu Hilmy (37:11.438)
I mean, it's a very strange creative medium, right? There's so many different like inputs and contributors. Like it's not like, you know, you pull up a canvas and grab your oil paints or you sit at your typewriter and write a novel. It's just like the goal is to create some kind of finished thing that has a, a structure to it, whether it's experimental or narrative. But it's just, yeah, there's so, there's so many moving parts and you're just like production as you're capturing the raw.
the raw material that can be edited.
Yeah, and like you want to, it's like, it's fun, but also it's stressful. Like, this actor needs to leave at this time. you got to make sure that we get all the coverage. Like there's like a weird, it's a strange blend of like technicalness and creativity. And it's like.
Yeah. And like in different bursts. Right.
And it's like, it's such a balancing act to get that all correct.
Mishu Hilmy (38:06.966)
And then for you moving to the edit, being that you're sort of, wrote it, you directed it. what, what's, know, do you give yourself a breather a few weeks to look at the dailies? Like what's your editing approach?
So I think I'm gonna start doing that now with Hamster because originally I was gonna work with an editor and I did for a while but it was just taking too long. It was taking months to get stuff back and I have nothing against him. He was doing a good job. was just like I really wanted the film done at reasonable time. was like, I feel like if I kept at this pace, it would have been another two years before we saw Hamster.
So, you know, once I got the footage back and it was like months later, I was like, this is kind of refreshing. So I've been able to watch that. I couldn't find the notes, the script soup notes. And I was like, so I had no choice but to just kind of watch all the footage again. And I was like looking at it in a more objective way. And I always try to bring like an objectiveness to my edits. One of my stories as with Spaghetti Man, like I had a cameo in that movie. There was supposed to be like a date scene.
where our, where Mari gets stood up and then she's like looking around and like there's spaghetti man in a trench coat and fedora like he's like an Olsen twin and you know, gives him a thumbs up. I'm like the waiter in that scene, but I mean, it was slowing down the film and it's like, even though like it's me on the screen, whoopty-doo, it was much better to just take that out.
I think like the benefit of having an outside editor is they don't give a shit about how much effort it took to get the frame or how many hours were burned to get the moment. But to have discretion as a director and editor, takes a lot of discretion to go, I know we spent hours on this and I know I'm also cameoed in it, but it's really dragging this and I gotta just be like bloodless and cold blooded and like just take it out.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (40:06.666)
It is such a unique exercise to do that. Especially for months, it's like, this is my baby, this is my baby. And then once it's in the editing room, it's like, all right, I'm going to take out pieces of my baby.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious. Like, have you found that like, while you're writing or rewriting a script, you're like, you know, editor Jerry would just get rid of half of this scene.
I think so. And like that's something that I'm trying to get better at and just, you know, just like trying to fix it in pre before we actually shoot it. sometimes it's like, yeah, just, just so oblivious to some things where it's like, wasn't until like we found something and it's like, yeah, we really don't need that.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (40:47.17)
Right. Yeah. Cause sometimes it's not even script or content wise. It's sort of vibe wise. It's like, well, this actor is sort of repeating a similar action at the start of this moment to the middle of this moment. We could either cut the middle or cut the start, but like, won't necessarily know that on the page. You'll see it in framing and performance and rhythm. And I think that's where like that natural, that final edit comes into play with the post-production process.
Yeah. And like with hamster, like there's already a scene that we had to cut out. Well, I guess too, but there's another scene that we didn't end up reshooting and we're like, I think this works better if we just keep it going and we just roll into this next bit. And like, we had this amazing shot where we have, we're on one side of the 180 for this scene. And then, you know, this thing happens and then we're on the other side of the 180, but now we don't have that scene to kind of transition us into this other thing. it's like.
We have to work around and fix the 180 again.
such a funny challenge, right? Cause you're doing something creative in the moment, but maybe it just sort of that transitional might've dragged is it's like, shoot, we gotta, we gotta cut into it. But then you don't have any of the rules that were established from maybe the rolling shot or whatever.
So just unique challenge and like I, that's like the weird thing about me. It's cause like, love writing. love directing, but I also love editing and doing VFX and doing puppets. It's just like, there's so many hats that like, I'm glad it just never gets old. And it's like, I'm not ever doing just one thing and like, I can jump onto one thing or the other.
Mishu Hilmy (42:16.078)
Yeah, they're like super skill, like helpful skills to have. And it's like, I know I can edit if I need to. And it just honestly helps maybe having a shared language when you do delegate or find someone that, you know, take, take the reins. But at the same time, it's like, yeah, you like, you like doing after-effects work or a CG work and some projects demand it because of timing or budget that you do it. But when you do have someone, you know, who's doing it for you can at least, you know, problem solve with a similar, similar background.
And I think any storyteller should look into developing these other skills. Cause you just never know. And like, definitely have worked for people, as a VFX artist or a puppeteer, where these people don't know what goes into these things and they expect the world or they're asked for complicated VFX shots. And they're like, okay, did you shoot it in a way that would be easy and like that we can accomplish this? Cause it'd be a lot easier if we added the camera shake and posts and then they don't do that.
Makes my job a whole lot harder. then they're like, why does this look terrible? I'm like, because you didn't shoot it right.
Yeah, where are the clean plates? Give me the clean plates.
One thing, was one person that wanted me to add a whole bunch of spiders in the middle of all this fog and I'm like, how?
Mishu Hilmy (43:30.712)
I've been wanting to play around with Unreal Engine, Blender, and even stuff in Resolve. I I know how to color grade, but After Effects visual work, I'm totally, totally oblivious. And I do think similar to how when you have experience as an editor, it'll make you much better on set. Because you know what those moments are that get real tricky to kind of ensure some degree of continuity or rhythm or make sense. Similarly, if you have experience with After Effects or Blender,
for you, Jerry, on set, you're like, well, these are bare minimum, some takes I need to have so we can at least do a safe version before we get really wacky and creative.
That's exactly it. And like, I'm also trying to learn from other departments and like what they need. And like, I shot a sketch maybe last year where the actors are really funny. They were kind of stepping on each other's lines. I'm like, oh, this is great. We get to the editing thing. I'm like, oh, this is not going to work for editing because like now we can't separate it. So remembering that, I was on separate hamster where the same thing happened. I'm like, I'm going to do a take where they say the line separate.
Rice. Yes. Yeah.
This constantly learning and think learning is so beautiful.
Mishu Hilmy (44:45.838)
Totally. Yeah. Like all learning comes from pain, right? Because there is the pain of you see these great performances, but they're overlapping their dialogue in the wide, in the close, in the singles. It's like, okay, maybe for the master shot, we can go real theatrical and overlap, but let's get some clean singles.
So it's like, feels so good to just like pull out that move. It's like, and you know, I, at the same time I pointed at the sound guy. was like, for sound, let's do this. And I think I earned some brownie points that day.
Nice, nice. Yeah, yeah. I gotta get the approval from the sound team. That's like my number one goal when I'm on set. That the boom up and the sound mixers are like,
You and me both. Right.
And then like, I think I'm curious, for you, like when it comes to the uncertainty, right. Cause at the, at the start, we're talking about kind of the challenge of, you know, making something in it, sort of getting quiet and maybe a festival programmers just this year are interested in it for whatever reason. Like how do you deal, how do you you personally navigated the ups and downs and sort of the extreme uncertainty of this, you know, creative industry, creative life? Like, what do do? How do you, how do you take care of yourself in it?
Jerry S. Gonzalez (45:54.932)
I don't want to say it, but you gotta have a thick skin. It's all about optics and I might seem like I have it all, but I don't. There's a lot more festivals that I've been rejected from that I actually get accepted into. I never really get my hopes up. I go to therapy. I'm still working through all this stuff out. I have high expectations, but I also try to keep them realistic and grounded.
And like, I know that like, maybe what I make is not for everybody. maybe there's a whole plethora of reasons why maybe a film wouldn't get into a festival. Maybe it's too long. Maybe it doesn't really match the theme of the festival. I mean, like with Sundance and everything, it's like, it's better if you know somebody so you can kind of get in there through that. So there's just a whole bunch of reasons. And, you know, I'm hoping as to like, you know, as I go along that, you know, it gets easier.
and people just throw me and stuff.
I think what I meditate on a lot though is like, I've been trying to meditate on it never gets easier and let that free me because I think there's probably the belief of like, once, once I make it, the doors will open versus I think from everything I've read, directors, star actors, star producers, star directors, it's like a very difficult thing to get people to entrust you with something that's very risky, very expensive and has no guarantee of ever recouping its money. like.
I don't know. try to meditate on that. take what you will of it, but I do think it's like, yearn for ease, but it's maybe an illusion that other people make it, you know.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (47:32.482)
Yeah, no, no, that's-
Yeah, no, that's really good. That's something I haven't really thought about. It's know, like starting off, it's like you're doing everything. You're wearing all the hats and then like, as you go on, you're upgrading, you're leveling up, other people are joining you, but also like the stakes are higher and you are like, time is money and it's not like, if we don't get this shot, we could get it another day. It's like, no, we have to get this shot now. So I think there is a certain level of...
You have to be realistic about it and you know, it's like you can't let it like slip through your fingers.
I also wonder if there's something around like different kinds of challenges. Cause maybe the ease or the dis-ease just gets displaced or moved around. Because I think maybe right now at the indie sort of lower budget level, the challenges are around visibility and kind of relevant gatekeepers. And I think there might be a belief that as you have a little bit more creative clout, social clout, industry clout, some of those challenges, the burden is removed, but now you have a new burden of like,
while they're expecting more or they're expecting this degree of quality, et cetera. But I do think maybe that's where there might be a little bit more hope for ease of, well, I've proven myself to a degree. now at least when I knock on doors, people look through the peephole they're willing to open rather than like, you know, file a restraining order.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (48:57.208)
Yeah, yeah, no, I feel that.
I think you do really sort of interesting, courageous, stylistic work. So like how, how mindful or intentional are you around like just subversion of expectations and taking big risks, taking big creative swings and risks? Like how, how intentional is that when it comes to your particular creative process?
I try to make every one of my films more stylistically and different from the last one. I wanted my filmography to be something where someone could be like, the spaghetti one, the hamster one. know, like I don't, you know, cause sometimes you're like trying to think of like another filmmaker's work and you're like, it's the one that has this actor. It's like, well, that actor was also in this. like, no, it's someone that, you know, it's about this guy and he's a drug addict, you know? And it's like,
they're covering the same thing over and over again. like I always find it as a challenge to me to always create things that are just different. And, you know, I'm always trying to challenge myself to just find new ways to just be weird.
mean, that's the spirit of like doing this, right? Cause I think what makes this industry or this kind of creative act fun is like the discovery, the challenges and sort of the whimsy and play that comes with it versus like, if it's just sort of dreadful and you're trying to emulate and do the same thing over and over again, then like just get a day job, go into real estate or like, you know, go into manufacturing. you so much for sharing your time. This has been so nice to get to talk.
Jerry S. Gonzalez (50:29.454)
Yeah, this has been a great time. Thank you so much for having me.
Mishu Hilmy (50:39.854)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just want to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your likeness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. All right, you know what? I'm to feel like doing two prompts today because this conversation inspired me about two sort
different things one is just practicing weird and small set of timer for five minutes and just draw, write, sketch, outline the weirdest, schlockiest, strangest mini story or concept you have in your head without any kind of editing or judgment the stranger the better I think there's some degree of research that shows creating constraint and just playing around lowers inhibition and allows you to just think more creative divergent thoughts so that's one take five minutes and
Doodle, draw, outline, write a little story, create a little image. That's super weird. And do it without judging yourself. And the other one is about projects you've completed. This one release and let it out there. Don't perfect it. Pick one finished creative idea somewhere on your hard drive in your notes. And the next week, send it out or at it to a friend or a small group. And it's just a good practice that putting out imperfect things helps build creative momentum.
and that dismantles that sort of perfectionist loop within you. So those are two prompts for you to play around with putting something out there with a small group of friends and just spending five minutes creating something small and weird just for yourself without judgment. So that's it. Thanks for listening this far and I hope you have a great rest of your day.