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Today, I’m talking to Moritz Dausinger, a serial indie hacker with several exits under his belt. Moritz most recently pivoted his software business Refiner after 18 months of trying to figure out a way forward. Well, now he’s found it. We will chat about figuring out how to structure sales, how and who to hire, and if he wants to sell this business again, for a third time.
Moritz on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mdausinger
The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/moritz-dausinger-serial-indie-entrepreneurship/
Moritz on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mdausinger
The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/moritz-dausinger-serial-indie-entrepreneurship/
The podcast episode: https://share.transistor.fm/s/215b9c09
You'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com
Newsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletter
My book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/
My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/
My course Find Your Following: https://findyourfollowing.com
This episode is sponsored by Acquire.com!
- (00:00) - Introduction to today’s episode.
- (03:04) - How did you get involved with the indie hackers podcast?
- (10:11) - It’s never just about execution.
- (16:40) - The importance of bootstrapping.
- (20:16) - Getting funding for Refiner.
- (24:47) - How to outsource your technical work.
- (29:29) - How did you decide to sell your company?
- (35:47) - The importance of building a good relationship with the seller.
- (38:38) - Sharing your story in public.
- (42:23) - The importance of sharing your story.
- (47:50) - Bridging the gap between sales and customer service.
- (51:56) - Pricing structure for dual models.
- (57:43) - How expensive is it to run a database server?
- (01:03:08) - What is the perfect sellable business?
Creators & Guests
What is The Bootstrapped Founder?
Arvid Kahl talks about starting and bootstrapping businesses, how to build an audience, and how to build in public.
Arvid Kahl: Welcome to The
Bootstrapped Founder. Today, I'm
talking to Moritz Dausinger, a
serial indie hacker with several
exits under his belt. Moritz
most recently pivoted his
software business refiner after
18 months of trying to figure
out a way forward. Well, now
he's founded. We will chat about
figuring out how to structure
sales, how and who to hire, and
if he really wants to sell this
business again for a third time.
And before we get to our
conversation about all of this,
let me introduce the sponsor of
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you move out of your comfort
zone and you do sales and
marketing and all the things you
don't like doing. And in six
months, you've tripled your
revenue. The reality isn't that
simple. Situations may be
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facing this particular
crossroad. And too many times,
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Acquire.com is free to list and
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acquire.com and see if this is
for you, if this is the right
option for you at this time. All
right, here is Moritz Dausinger.
Moritz, I really have to thank
you not just for being on this
podcast today, but for having
been on podcasts in the past in
August of 2017. And this is six
years ago, which is crazy. You
went on the Indie Hackers
podcast and that was episode 24.
It was barely a couple months
old at that time. You talked
about building and selling mail
parser. And I remember this
podcast episode so vividly. I
have like a visual memory of
this. I was traveling through
Berlin, just coming home from
work in the espon right there.
And I heard you mentioned that
you sold your business to a
private equity company. And it
blew my mind that day. I just
didn't know, I didn't know that
was possible. And you also
mentioned the name of that
company, which is something I
will never forget because we
ended up selling our SaaS
business to the same private
equity company two years later
and in a way that makes you
responsible for our exit. So I
just wanted to extend a very big
thank you to you and just point
out how powerful it can be to
share your story in public like
you did on that podcast. So I'm
really, really glad you're here
today as well. So thank you so
much for that.
Moritz Dausinger: Man, you can't
imagine how happy I am to
hearing this. And now look at
us, what? Six years later? Seven
years later?
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, almost seven
Moritz Dausinger: And I remember
when I got asked to speak on the
indie hackers podcast, I wasn't
hesitating. It was quite new. I
knew the website I bet. Well, it
was kind of a niche experience
back then this whole indie
hackers thing. And yeah, lucky.
I did. I think there's so many
also from my career and my story
after coming afterward. So many
good things came from this one
podcast, which which was, I
think, actually my first one
ever. So now lucky me into the
right thing, right?
Arvid Kahl: That's right. That's
a that's a great start to start
podcasting, probably in what is
still the best podcast in the
space, right, at least the most
renowned podcasts that I could
think of when I think about
indie hacking. So are you still
an indie hacker? Do you still
consider yourself an indie
hacker?
Moritz Dausinger: Oh, well,
well, I think I stopped putting
myself a label on quite a long
time ago. Because it really
depends with who I'm talking to.
Like, for example, if I would
talk to my parents, I would say
I'm middle stand it on the name
like Sherman. I don't know small
business IT company. So I'm not
a startup? I'm not. I would
Yeah, I would say it's a small
IT company. We are several
people. So I'm not really an
indie hacker, but I'm the solo
founder. At the same time, it's
mostly self finance. So yeah,
you could say you could also say
I'm just a 40 Something guy who
has an IT company and building
software, right?
Arvid Kahl: I guess that's
that's what most Germans would
be much more easily You can
attract it to as a concept they
would understand like, you know,
the middle middle student,
that's what we call it right?
middle middle class, small
business thing. That is
something relatable to most
people. It is interesting that
you mentioned this, like you
said, you're having a team. So
you're not an indie hacker
anymore. That I mean, that's not
exactly what you said. But it's
kind of, you know, a sentiment
that once you grow your business
to a certain size, it feels less
in the less independent, it
still might be financially,
right, you might might still
have most of your funds coming
actually from your customers.
But there is some dependency in
the business, either for your
team members, so they have a job
like a stable income, or to
customers who really rely on
you. Now there is a dependency
in there. That is something that
I don't hear many people talk
about, like, what's that
dependency, that newfound
dependency in a previously
independent business is let's,
let's maybe talk about what
you're currently building, or
maybe, okay, let's start with
that. Because we can talk about
the things you built in the past
afterwards. We don't need to be
chronologically correct. But
you're currently working on
refiner. And I think refiner has
an amazing long and I guess,
order yes and stressful story.
Like to hear about it. How did
that go? Like after selling your
first few businesses? You
started refining? What? What
made you jump into that again?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. So when
I sold my last company, Doc
parser, I had an agreement with
the buyer, where I would stay on
for a couple of what was one and
a half years actually. And I
would readily transition out of
the company. So his interest was
basically as long as things are
going well, I'm getting, I'm
going to work less and less fine
for me. However, back then,
having a wife having kids means
you're not free to go anywhere
in the world. So you kind of
stuck where you are in the
office still. And so I thought
why not just build the next one,
right? I mean, I need to do
something. And so when I was
running doc parser, I had this
need to qualify my signups like
they would create an account. I
didn't want to have too many
questions while they are
creating their accounts. I
wanted to them to experience the
software right away. But I still
had some questions I would have
to have answered. And so what I
did, I was displaying an in app
survey, five minutes after they
created an account, asking two
simple questions. Just for
context like dog parsers
document processing software. So
I was asking the question, how
many documents are you
processing per month? What type
of documents that you want to
process? And having the answer
of those two, those two
questions allowed me first of
all, making some kind of axial
and charts and whatever to
figure out who my customers are.
And secondly, I could identify
bigger accounts, I could say,
oh, this one looks really
interesting. I want to talk with
this guy, I want to make sure
that they are having a good
experience. And so I like I'd
worked really well. I liked the
idea. I didn't find find the
product doing that. So back then
I was basically hard coding all
this. And so I thought this
would be my next winter. I
started coding this very simple
idea. And well, one and a half
years later, I found myself with
an enormously complex enterprise
IT kind of lead qualification
solution. Nobody was asking for
literally nobody was asking. So
even though I created a couple
of companies before I did,
pretty classic beginner mistake.
And you know, the issue there
was I built a first of all the
software nobody was asking for
Secondly, a software where you
would need to have some kind of
enterprise sales process,
something I really don't like
doing, and so on and so on. So I
felt like okay, I'm kind of
stuck somewhere. Let's go back.
Let's do a kind of Piero and go
back to this initial simple idea
of showing surveys inside an
app. And this is what basically
refiners today. So throw away
like 90%, the code launched one
week before lockdown. COVID
lockdown in France, perfect
timing. Bad. Well give me some
time to like, I don't know,
like, I think this whole first
COVID months. It was good. That
software was quite, you know,
there was not much going on. So
I mean, there were other stuff
to take care of, for example,
the kits and then after, in
total, I would say two years
after starting this new project.
I was at the point where I had
significant Mr. of, I don't know
that was like one or $2,000
$1,000 per month which was for
me to sign okay. I And finally,
after two years I did it. I had
another software, which was kind
of working well, yeah, that's
the beginning of this refinery
story.
Arvid Kahl: Thanks for sharing
this thanks also for just being
honest, but both to yourself.
And to me and everybody
listening about, you know, like,
even even if you did a couple
things before and you're
successful doesn't mean you
cannot fall into same traps
again, I do make the same
mistakes. And it's probably I
don't know, maybe, maybe I just
want to ask you this. Did you
feel like you knew better, you
know, after having built two
businesses that you knew exactly
what your customers need? And
then you build it? Was that it?
Some kind of hubris? Some kind
of oh, yeah, I know better than
everybody else.
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. Okay. So
like, I mean, at that time, on
top pass, it was a third product
I had built and which became
big. And so I was like, Okay, I
found my model. I like building
software. I like the early days.
So I'm just going to continue
building one project after the
other SaaS, product, B2B SaaS
product, because I figured it
all out, I know it all. And, ya
know, what helps you what, like
the experience I have right now
definitely helps in the day to
day operations. It helps with a
lot, a lot of things I wouldn't
neglected neglected. But it
doesn't prevent you from making
stupid mistakes, it doesn't
prevent you from not finding the
MVP you're looking for. And it
really reminded me that going
from zero to something is just
so hard, and you need to have
luck. And you need to have good
timing, and you need to exert a
lot of things checked to be
there. Once you have something
in your hand, which I've
mentioned before, like one to
$2,000 Mr. Then I think it's
much much more about execution.
But before that, it's some kind
of like magic. Where are you?
Yeah. Well, some everybody
that's different. But
Arvid Kahl: yeah, that's that's
an interesting point. Once you
have something, not only is it
is it just about execution at
that point, but it's never just
about anything, right? If they
you know, entrepreneurship is
everything at the same time. But
if you have something, not only
can you actually put more energy
into what you know, works, we
can also show it to other people
and make other people
interested. And I think you did
that, right. Because for your
first products, you only really
put your own money into this.
You just use your own funds. And
that was it. But for refiner,
you went a different route. Do
you want to explain a little bit
what you did once you reach that
point? And MRR?
Moritz Dausinger: Yes. Yeah,
just to to follow up on this.
The first one, like, I feel like
once you have something, then
that also means yeah, as you
mentioned, you can show it to
somebody and you have, most
importantly, customers. Yeah.
And once you have, once you have
10 customers or 50 customers, I
feel like the shop changes, the
job is then to listen to what
they're saying, having your own
vision as well, and trying to
match those two things. And so
I'm definitely not the guy
saying whatever the customer
says, I'm going to implement it.
It's more like whatever they
say, and it fits my products,
energy, it's maybe already on my
to do list, then I'm doing it
right. So this is why I think
it's getting not easier, but
different once you have to know
50 customers. And to follow up
on your point about what I did
once I went to the one to 2k Mr.
At that time, I already had
like, nearly two years of own
money spending and no salary put
into this company. And I felt
like I have no two choices.
Either I do that, again, like
another year without a salary on
maybe two years without a
salary. Or maybe I can get a
little bit of extra outside
funding inside his company. And
you know, like, the reason why I
never raised before was because
I didn't really like venture
capital path. You are set on
once you raise with a VC which
means seed round and series A
Series B and you basically are
promising everybody, I'm going
to build a really, really big
company and good for people who
want to do that. I didn't want
to do that. So I'd never
actually considered the VC path
something which would fit to me.
But luckily, during the last
year, there were a couple of
funds coming up which are what
they call themself bootstrapper
friendly, so you can get an
investment They definitely are
funds. So they, they want to
have a return on their
investment. But they're not
necessarily setting you up on
the path of a typical VC
startup. And so that made it
compatible to me. And so I
raised some money with com
company fund. And I actually
really, I can fool hobbies, I
don't really, I don't really
regret it, because it allowed me
to just really accelerate a
little bit like hiring
freelancers for marketing, and
also developer freelancer and
just go faster. And with not
many strings attached, they are
for sure strings attached, you
are giving away a part of your
company, right. And then the
moment you want to sell your
company, it's also you need to
give money back to them. So
you're kind of signing up that
this is becoming a bigger thing
than just like a project you
would sell for, let's say 50 or
100k. On micro acquire it,
you're kind of signing up that
you want to build a bigger thing
that that's the strings attached
to it. Yeah, but apart from
that, I was really quite happy
about that decision. Also,
because, you know, as I
mentioned before, I already put
in a lot of own money. And I
felt like if I continue doing
that, it's just becoming more
and more difficult to make
really objective decisions.
Because it's still a business,
right? It's not it's, it's a
business.
Arvid Kahl: That's what I was,
that's, that's what I'm super
interested in. Because you're
saying, like you with that
money, you can make objective
decisions. And without it, they
would have been more, I don't
know, fear driven, I guess,
which is interesting. Because
most people, whenever they talk
about raising money, they say,
Well, now I need to make
different decisions for my
investors. But that's where the
bootstrapper compatibility comes
in. Can you kind of explain,
like, the kinds of decisions
that you didn't want to make
like to kind of, you know, all
your money is in there? And now
I need to, you know, protect it.
What was that? What was driving
you at that point?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, it was
more like, putting too much on
my of my own wealth into one
project. And also, you know,
like that, I think it's really
interesting to ask the question,
when are you racing, what
wouldn't work for me, for
example, is raising money on an
idea, because then I would be
super nervous, like, oh, man,
this guy just gave me money. And
now I need to really need to
deliver and need to build
something that is working. The
moment I raised money from Tyler
from company fund, there was
already a software product,
which was working, right, it was
not profitable, but it was
working. And there was confident
enough, giving my previous
experiences with NASA SaaS
space, that I thought, okay, if
I can bring it to KMR, I
probably going to be able to
bring it to 20 or more. And so
yeah, that gave me confidence to
say, From now on, I can do that,
but I prefer doing it with
outside money than my own money.
So okay,
Arvid Kahl: that's, that is
exactly what I love about this
bootstrapper compatible model,
like, first of all, they are
compatible in terms of they
don't really interfere with your
decision making, which is
exactly what you need at that
point, right. as a, as a solo
founder, or as an indie founder,
you want to make your
independent choices, that's,
that's what you signed up for.
And the whole journey, that's
what you want. And they only
really take you on, if you've
proven that the thing you're
doing works, right. Like if you
look at tiny seed, or if you
look at the com company fund or
whatever other players in the
field exists, they all want you
to prove that you can have
customers, they need you to
already have customers before
they give you money, which is
also complete opposite of the VC
idea. They want you to just you
know, have a really disruptive
idea, and maybe some kind of
semblance of a product, if at
all, you know, like some
products don't even exist, but
our market it you know, and in
the VC space, not that there's
anything wrong with trying to
disrupt the world. It's also
interesting, right as a business
approach, but I think in terms
of what we are doing as people
who want to build, and I mean,
it's in the best sense of the
word, a lifestyle business, a
business that allows us to live
the way we want to live. Having
somebody who can support us,
like that is great. And I I have
to I have to mention it. I have
a podcast with Tyler, where
we're building stuff together.
So obviously, I'm not gonna
badmouth the idea of the comm
company fund here. Also being an
investor in the fund. And also
knowing that both you and me and
Tyler we all sold our businesses
to the same private equity
company. It's a big family,
right like and that's that's
what I kind of love about the
fund. Like it was initially
called earnest capital when he
started and then he renamed it
to the Kong company Fund, which
I think is a much better name.
It comes from a place where
people really understand what
the kind of business stead we
want to build is about right,
both Tyler and the mentors and
the investors in the fund. We
all are effectively solopreneur
or really small indie business
owners or have been because we
sold our businesses, right. So
we know exactly what this field
is about. And I'm really happy
you got some, some funding for
refiner, because apparently it
helped you pretty well, right?
Like, I was looking pretty good.
Moritz Dausinger: It did. And
you know, like, I think, I can't
really remember the, I think you
can put it like that, like, it's
really about math, the count
company fund on similar funds,
assume that eight out of 10
investments will work out. And
which is the opposite to the VC
model, where it's basically two
out of 10 will work out and the
rest, maybe not. And I'm not
saying this one is better, this
one is better, I can just say
this one is more compatible with
me as more words as somebody who
likes building software
products, and like, organizing
my days, the way I want to and
so yeah, I'm happy that I took
that. And, like, really, what it
really did is that I switched a
little bit my mindset, you know,
I was hiring, was able to hire
freelancers in advance, like,
you know, like, you're not
profitable yet. But you can burn
more money. This is typical,
three points, and all the
startups have that they can just
burn, burn, burn money, and I
held it. It's really sweet. It's
really good. But you you Yeah,
after half a year or one year,
you're like, oh, wow, I already
spent half of it what? So you
need to be careful with it. But
it did really help in terms of
product development, and in and
marketing because SEO like
content is one of the big
drivers for a refiner. And it's
a long term game, you know,
like, you need to invest a long
time period of time. It's not
something where you can just put
down like 500 euros, and the
next week, you're going to see
results. You need to start
early. And you need to do it
good. And it will cost some
money. And a lot of this money
went into that. And so yeah,
that wouldn't have happened
without investment. Yeah.
Arvid Kahl: Well, that's good to
know. I'm reminded, as you're
talking about, like, who you
hired and the freelancers that
are working for you, I reminded
a talk that Rob walling was just
giving at MicroConf in Denver a
couple months ago, he talks
about the first hires that every
SaaS B2B SaaS business should be
doing. And I do wonder, in your
particular case, what is the
order of people that you hired
in, in the sense of that you
hired for part time or full time
or even just projects? What
order of jobs did you need to
hire out?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. So I
don't want to make a rule out of
that, and I exploring things as
I go. But I can just say what I
did. For the early iteration of
the early product, I hired
website designer to make it look
good. So that I have a nice
website, I did the product
myself entirely. So I was lucky
enough that I could code and
build some kind of UI, which is
not too crazy ugly. But you need
to see that my product has an
visual part of it. It's the
surveys. And these ones were
also designed by a designer. So
I was able to get a good looking
product, which was kind of
important for for my business.
Next thing was marketing. Like,
as I said, the SEO person. Its
power from smashing copy, which
I really recommend. And after
that, it was a developer,
another marketing person. Today,
we having also that mobile
surveys of app to mobile
developers, a salesperson in
Paris. She's doing basically
following up and building up a
process around bigger customers
so that they because they have
special needs to get on boarded.
And who else that's about it.
Yeah.
Arvid Kahl: That just that list
alone raises so many questions
for me, but I'm trying to
constrain myself to one at a
time. First one, how was it hard
to hire developers for you?
Because I felt that so strongly
to hire somebody that was
supposed to do my work as good
as I did it. How was that for
you?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, no,
like, really, really difficult
when you're a technical founder.
And so I was super lucky to find
Ben. He's also active on
Twitter. Digital trouble is his
handle He was over, he is a
senior person I can trust.
Nevertheless, you need to do a
lot of specs, you need to really
write that down into detail
because nobody knows your
product better than you do. And
secondly, there are parts on the
products, I think are good for
outsourcing. And then there are
other parts where I'm basically
like, okay, no, I'm the best fit
for this particular part of the
product. If one day, I'm in the
position to hire a full time
employee who is just doing that,
for sure you're going to take
over, but for right for right
now, these are the parts I'm
handling. And these are parts,
for example, in our case, then
coded the entire dashboard
section where you could build
your own custom reporting
dashboards, like adding a chart
and resizing and removing, it
was really a nice project apart,
which didn't interfere with all
the rest of the software. So
that was basically my approach.
Or they would say, No, I can't
go outsource all of it. But
there are definitely still
things I can outsource. And even
then it's even then if you have
a really good person, it's so
difficult to have the coding
standards, right? To make it so
that if I mean, for me, it's
really important that the code
base is kind of uniform, you
know, like, if one day somebody
else is gonna take over, they
will find your way because
everything is done the same way,
which I value more than the
perfect way, you know, it might
not be perfect, but at least
it's a way for you. So there's a
system to it. And all this kind
of stuff is really getting more
more difficult, more, the more
people you're putting on the
project. And yeah, so that's the
answer of your first question. I
think some things you can
outsource some things I'm not
eager to.
Arvid Kahl: Man, that is, that's
a great answer, like to know
what you need to still do. And
to to also let go of the things
that I bet you could do it
because you have to until you
hire somebody for it. So how
much of your day do you still
spend coding compared to the all
the other things you have to do
as a founder,
Moritz Dausinger: right now,
close to zero, because and I'm
saying this with a sad face. For
those who are not watching, but
listening, now I really I really
like holding like a, but I know
that for the business, I am
spending a lot of time
onboarding new customers, I'm
spending a lot of time doing
admin stuff like paying bills
and paying me are paying
contractors paying moving money
around and and like, for
example, also with the bigger
accounts, there's also always
legal questions, and there's
just so much stuff to do. So no,
unfortunately, I'm not coding
much these days. And Nick, one
of the next things on my list
would be also to hire somebody
for exactly this the technical
support, I call it like, it's
not just supporting the way of,
Oh, where do I change my
password, it's more like a
customer. So customer success
person who really takes the new
customer by their hand and make
sure that they get the most of
the solution. And I think this
will free up a lot of time. Once
I find the right person to do
so. Because yeah, right now,
it's really like, less fun than
before. Let's say like, before,
there was a lot of coding and
new features and whatever. And
right now it's more like showing
up every day and getting the
stuff moving. It's part of the
game, right?
Arvid Kahl: You can't run a
business without operations,
right? You still need to make
thing make things happen. But I
was talking to Tyler about this
on our podcast, he was kind of
bringing it up because he has
been talking to a lot of
founders, obviously in the fund.
And he heard from a lot of them
that they just want to be
contributors to their own
projects, they still want to
contribute. They want to be an
individual contributor to the
codebase to the actual product,
and often they can't really find
it. So find the time to do it.
Because there's so much so much
else to do. So what you're doing
right now, I think is very
important to even be aware of
that just because the business
necessitates all this extra
work, doesn't mean that you
cannot find somebody to do it
for you. Right? You are not the
only person who can. So I'm glad
you are you're already thinking
through how you can get that
work, offloaded to somebody else
so you can be best at what
you're at, which seems to be
coding at least.
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. And I
mean, I think it's a real real
issue and what we've been
probably it's so rare that you
find somebody who's good in the
beginning of building a company
where you need to do well you
need to contribute, and then he
kind of switches to Like the
brothers of stripe, they are
coders. And then there's they
switched at a certain point into
conquering the world. Like, I
mean, you don't do that by
continuing coding, I guess you
do that by hiring the right
people having the right strategy
and so on. And honestly, it's, I
mean, maybe sounds a little bit
self limiting, but I'm, I'm kind
of feeling good in this early
stage world where I'm still
contributing a lot. And I'm
curious how far we're gonna go,
this time, we'll be finer. But
um, it's not something I'm
feeling pulled towards to say,
oh, I really want to be managing
100 People in two years, it's
really not something I'm having
my hands on. I'm waking up in
the morning, it's more like, Oh,
I think we should probably
develop this. And that because I
feel like that would be a good
fit for the product. I'm more in
this world still. Again, maybe
we talk in five years, and then
I'm telling you a different
story. But right now today, I'm
on this mindset that I am
showing building products and
companies. And let's see how big
we are growing. But let's see
about that. It does
Arvid Kahl: remind me not about
like five years in the future,
because who knows what's gonna
happen then. But it does remind
me of five years in the past
when I was listening to you on
the 24th episode of indie
hackers, and you know, the, the
mentality you had back then
kinda sounds like the mentality
you have today. You want to
build interesting stuff. And you
want to grow it to a point where
you still enjoy building it,
right? So maybe let's let's talk
about male parser. And Doc
parser. You You did sell them at
some point you did get acquired.
I do wonder why that is because
you know, like, we all either we
want to sell, or we want to
build something for life. Can
you explain to me maybe like the
process of how you figured out
that you can and wanted to sell
a business in the first place?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. So when
I started building, may parser,
it was meant to be a fun side
project, were actually really
not having any ambition there. I
was working for startups studio.
And Paris, a very well known
startups, we're really having
the best job in the world. It
was it's called the founders.
It's really where everybody
wants to work. And I was able to
work there. So I had a great job
there. And yeah, but I still
built a software, and then it
kind of took its own life. And
then there was this moment where
I had 5k M R on the side
project, and pretty much the
same in the salary. And I needed
to decide where is this going.
And I decided I want to give it
a try. I want to see how far I
can go. And at that time, I also
read the website, and a website
about Fe International, which
was a business broker. And I was
like, what does this exist a
business broker? Like, like a
real estate broker, but somebody
was just selling online estates?
And I was like, super fascinated
by that. And then yeah, somehow
I saw, okay, what if you, if you
bring it to this kind of Mr. You
can sell it for this amount of
money. And, well, it became
interesting as an idea. And
then, yeah, by discovering this
whole world that this idea was a
little bit set in my head to
say, okay, maybe I can bring it
to a point where I can sell it.
And, you know, like people
always referring to this life
changing money or whatever. But
sorry to say, but was kind of
true. It allowed us to do a big
down payment for an apartment,
and secure myself as a
entrepreneur in a way of, like,
having, like, first of all, more
self confidence in the dome,
like, okay, apparently what I'm
doing, I'm doing it correctly.
Secondly, most of my apartment
in one of the most expensive
cities in Europe is already
paid. That's good. And if I can
do it once, maybe I can do it
twice. So it was really it was
not the sense of now I'm buying
big watches in cars and
whatever. Not at all. It was
just like, giving me some kind
of peace of mind and security in
life. And yeah, so that was
really attractive as an idea and
that's why I sold a parser. And
at the same time, back then I
had created doc parser, which
was kind of a sister product.
And Kevin, the buyer of May
parser. From Joseph capital,
back then. Agreed that I could
continue building up the parser
and selling me parser to him.
And it was basically win-win
Basically a win win situation,
because what I like to do is
building up stuff. And what he
likes to do is buying stuff that
is already big. I told him that,
let's let him do it. So I
continued working on doc parser.
And once I feel it's time is
ready and go, we both agree that
time is ready, I would have, he
would have right of first
refusal. So he is not obliged to
buy but he can buy it. And this
is how it happened. And so these
two were basically well, two
different products, two
different adventures. But one
story, right?
Arvid Kahl: That's awesome. It's
nice to build that connection to
the thing you're just saying
with Kevin, that is that is
important, right? Because in
this space, even though there's
a lot of competition among funds
and private equity companies, it
is nice to know somebody that
you can trust. I very, very
fondly remember our first
interaction like around the time
that we were trying to sell
panda our business. And also
we're looking at chose Swift.
And I did a lot of outreach to
people like you and Tyler people
who had sold their businesses
before, just to make sure that
there's a relationship that I
can actually trust with these
people, because you said it life
changing amounts of money. And
that is scary, right? It's scary
to deal with something that is
so valuable, your thing, they
even get to look into it, they
look into your p&l, they look
into your you know, all your
documents, your cash flow, and
maybe even your database or
something right, you, you have
to be really protective. So
knowing that you already have
somebody you can trust, and sell
this next thing to probably give
you a very different, or at
least a more secure feeling in
building that business. Is that
right?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah,
definitely. Like I mean, the
first one I sold through Fe
International. Because of that,
because I didn't know anyone. I
mean, yeah, you could I could
have probably send out an email
or Twitter tweet, I want to sell
this thing, give me give me your
offers. But as you said, You did
so it's so scary, you're scary,
you're scared to mess it up. And
you're scared to have this once
in a life opportunity to sell
something valuable. And you
might end up with somebody who
tells you the giving you a super
high price and whatever. But in
the end, it's just gonna go
really sideways, and then you're
having a lot of trouble. And
this is why I worked with EF
International in the beginning.
And then on the second one, I
already knew Kevin knew he's a
stand up guy and his word and
virtual handshake, if we didn't
do the handshake really is worth
as I don't know how to say it's
worth something a lot. Yeah, I
have, you know, like, just a
funny story. He's actually in
Paris next week for a personal
trip. And we are planning to
meet because, well, we kind of
kept the contact and became
friends more or less. And, you
know, like, that's just really
nice, you know, like that you
can keep those relationships
over a long period of time and
build up trust and all those
kind of things. And then also
have a good time as some dudes
walking around in the city and
talking about life. So that's
pretty good.
Arvid Kahl: I'm happy to hear
that I have the same
relationship with Kevin. I mean,
not exactly the same, obviously.
But we still talk to I actually,
when this episode comes out,
it's Kevin's episode will be the
one before this because I just
talked to him. Right. So we we
just chat all the time. And we
even like this official public
conversation still, because we
both have a lot that we want to
share and talk about in public.
And you're doing this now to I'm
really happy about this, which
kind of brings me to my next
thought you're not very active
on Twitter, at least not in the
moment. But I see you sharing
all this stuff right here and
you've written about it, you've
obviously went on podcasts and
you are on podcasts? Are you
kind of getting back into the
kind of building and public game
into sharing your story is
that's what's happening or is it
just like a fluke right now
Moritz Dausinger: it is not,
let's say different. I made a
break from it. Like I was much
more active on Twitter. Up
until, I don't know, maybe one
and a half years ago, one year
ago, and there was no real
reason or real event or whatever
big decision I just kind of, I
don't know posted less than less
and then you know, like, fell
like I mean this kind of stuff.
You don't need to you either you
want to do it or you don't want
to do it right if you don't want
to do it. There's no no reason
doing it. And but yeah,
definitely a couple of weeks
ago, I felt like, Okay, why not
go on podcasts again, that was
always something I really
enjoyed doing. Because it's much
deeper and much more, there's
much more context in it. And so
I was got contacted by one guy
from Germany. It's a German
bootstrapper. Podcast, happy
bootstrapping, as you're talking
German listened to a really nice
guy. And yeah, I liked it. And I
thought why not do a little bit
more? Because sharing is
important. And it's not really
sure. I mean, sure, it's nice to
be invited somewhere and then
talk and it's nice for the ego
and whatever. But I wouldn't be
where I am, without all those
blog posts, spending hours and
hours on Hacker News back then,
and indie hackers and Twitter,
and this is basically the
university. I mean, I did study
stuff, but I studied other
stuff, different things, right.
Everything I did, I'm doing
today, I basically learn through
that. So I felt like, it always
sounds a little bit cheesy, but
I feel like it's the right thing
to share and give back.
Arvid Kahl: 100%. That's, that's
why I'm here. And I guess it's
also why you're here. So it's
the perfect example. And I told
you this in the beginning, if it
wasn't for you, I don't know.
Like I you know, I don't know
what would have happened because
when Kevin reached out to us,
and we had shared like our MRR
numbers or stripe numbers on
indie hackers, we've kind of
plucked that in. So he found us
through indie hackers, and then
reach out to us through an
email. I knew exactly who he
was. And you did that you did
that for him. And you did that
for me, right? You connected us
without even knowing that you
were connecting us in some
future scenario. And I think
that's what at least teaching in
public, which is what you're
currently doing here with me
right today. That is what that
can do it on such a massive
scale. And like prior to hitting
the record button, we were
talking about this, like the
indie hackers scene has grown so
much right? Over the last couple
of years. When you were in
Episode 24, it was still kind of
a niche podcast. And now look at
the indie hackers podcast and
look at startups for the rest of
us or other like podcasts in the
space that have been going on
for years, if not almost decades
at this point. Isn't that
wonderful? I just I don't know,
I just want to be share my
gratitude for people like you
who were there from the start
and sharing their story. And I
think it's important. So I can
only recommend like doing more
of this and also sharing more on
Twitter, because I think you
have you have a lot of pool, you
have a lot of people following
you. And you have a lot of
interesting insights to share
from running a business.
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, and I
feel like I mean, there's always
like let's say like this, I'm
very convinced like every
journey is different. And you
know, when I'm sometimes I'm
doing mentoring sessions in a
night, once this situation where
I was telling somebody,
something, and then after you
later they told me, Well, half a
year later, you told me that and
it didn't work. And I was like,
Yeah, I don't know. Like, I just
said stuff, which worked for me.
And I feel so I feel like you
need to be really responsible in
how you teach and how you share
things. And again, I can just
tell my story. I can. I'm 100%
sure that any hacker who's
starting today has maybe more
thing, more opportunities, but
maybe it's also more difficult.
I don't know like it's
different. And different. Yeah,
that's so the I think there's a
very how to say it. Like, you
need to be careful not to put
yourself there as the Google
understood everything and look
at me, like with refiner I had,
it was the fourth product. I was
building the fourth startup. And
I was convinced I was having an
easy time just executing
whatever. And no, it didn't
happen. And so yeah, teaching
great. But for all people just
starting out, every be be be
mindful about that. Every story
is different than when we both
started when we both sold our
company. It was a different
time. And sounds really like old
dudes. On the radio. It's kind
of true. Yeah, that's right.
Different time.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, it's and
you're 100% Right. Like all
advice is anecdotal. Like, it's
all just a story and experience
that you have, and no advice is
ever completely copyable in
different circumstances. I 100%
agree. And you're right. In a
way, it's not even teaching.
It's just sharing. It's just
sharing a journey. It's just
giving people just insights into
what happened. Why you think it
happened, not why it happened.
Because you never really know.
Right? But while you have a
strong sense that it happened
for a reason, and then that's
all you can do, and people have
to pull from that what they what
they want to learn and I love
this. That's why I've been
asking you questions not really,
for you to give me answers on
how to do it. But more answers
on how you did it. And I, I feel
you're doing one other thing.
And I kind of want to get back
to this because as myself a
coder as well, a technical
person. And knowing that many
people listening to this are
engineers with, you know, not
too much patience for marketing
or for sales, but they they do
want to build, they do want to
make things you're doing
something with refined art is
really cool. And you kind of
make your documentation for your
product, kind of a first class
citizen of the product. And I'm
going to kind of ask you like,
how, how did that come to be?
Why is that? And how do you keep
this not just an add on but like
a core part of your product?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, very
interesting. Because when I look
back at the products I was
building, they kind of reflect
me as a person in the way that
they are technical. My audience,
the users who are using my
products like 1password, Doc pas
and refiner, at least tech savvy
people, they're not coders, but
technical people who like that
about the software who like that
they have lots of options to
customize everything really the
way they want to. And so the
type of products, building our
but I'm not, I don't want to say
complex because complex sounds
difficult, I want them to be
super easy. Let's say they are
powerful. And with that comes
also options and customizations
and all those kinds of things.
And I feel like if I would not
have a really top notch
documentation, I would, that
wouldn't fit, right. That would
feel weird in a way. And
sometimes I've witnessed that
with products, they have a
beautiful website, like really
shiny, super nice, well made
website, you sign up. And then
it's already a little bit, not
so beautiful, the software. And
then you realize that it's super
disappointing, because there's
not much functionality,
functionality, or it's super
complex, or whatever. And I
don't like this journey. I
rather prefer having a good
website, a good product and a
good documentation and standard
high. And so So I felt like for
the type of product I'm building
and the audience I'm having, I'm
kind of it's my job to say,
look, you can do a lot of stuff
with this software. It's quite
powerful. And I get it, it's
maybe not obvious to you. But
it's obvious to me because I
built that. But it's definitely
not obvious to you because
you're using it for the first
time. Here's the documentation,
I'm trying my best that it's
good for you, which then makes
my life easier as well. Because
I feel like with every user
who's finding their answer in
the documentation, I have one
more one less email to take care
of.
Arvid Kahl: Interesting. So it's
kind of it is helping you
reducing customer service load
because people kind of help
themselves. That that does
remind me you were saying in the
beginning that the thing you
built that didn't go anywhere
initially for refiner was very
like enterprise, the sales heavy
or it focused at that. I guess
now what you've been building is
more of a low touch kind of
SaaS. Do you think it I know,
it's still both. And that is an
interesting thing. We'd like to
know how you bridge this, like
how you build a business that is
both low touch SaaS ish. And,
you know, high touch sales. But
what I'm also interested in, as
we are still at documentation,
do you think like having a good
documentation is actually a
beneficial part of your sales
process? Both in low touch and
and high touch? Like how does it
fit into this kind of dichotomy
of sales?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, that's a
really a lot of good, good
points in there. So when I
started out, I started as
product for startups starting at
$39 per month. And I over the
time, it's so obvious, once you
know it, once you see it, it's
so obvious, but then I didn't
see it all the time, I realized,
actually, companies who are
getting the most value out of my
product are bigger. They're not
early stage startups, because if
you to get value out of surveys,
you need to have either a lot of
users, and I'm talking like
1000s, and not to hundreds. Or
end or you have a team, which is
so big that like opinions or gut
feeling is not counting that
much anymore. So basically, you
you're having you think like,
you know, like early day or
early stage founders, often
driven by gut feeling and
talking with the users. And then
it's like, less about really
like hard numbers. And this
works really well and I'm still
doing this, you know, like I'm
still at that point. But once
you're becoming a bigger
company, then you want to have
some proof before you start the
machine of implementing
something. And this is when
surveys can really, really get
you a lot Have peace of mind,
actually. And so I realized that
the best customers in the sense
of they are getting the most
value out of it. More like
established startups with
attraction, or even scale ups,
or b2c marketplaces, all these
these kind of software
companies. And with this
realization came also going with
the prices up. And so today the
small price starts at 79, if you
pay the yearly, but more like
99, if you pay monthly, and I
mean, they're their customers
paying more than 1000 per month,
like it's really like a spend,
which is I would call on maybe
not already mid market, but But
yeah, definitely not in the
hackers, no, and no early stage
startups, or just a sum of them.
And with this knowledge came
also the realization that on the
upper end, they cannot go search
service, they they cannot go low
touch. I mean, even if they tell
me, oh, look, I created an
account, I understand the
software, I know what to do,
they still need to go through
legal, they still need to pay
invoices, on a yearly basis,
they still want to have a
signature on the terms of
service, they still want to have
on security audit, and so on and
so on. So even if my user, the
one who is signing up would like
just to put in his credit card
and be done with it, they can't
do that, because they're in a
bigger company where they have
other processes. And this is
where my colleague flurry comes
in, where she is basically, for
these kinds of customers, some
kind of project manager, driving
the project, project forward,
following up talking with
different stakeholders and so
on. This is why I'm having this
dual model. If it was up to me,
let's do low touch, right? I
mean, there's just this reality,
if you buy if you sell to, if
you sell to banks or whatever.
That's not how it works, right?
So yeah, and this is why you can
do both. And some, sometimes
people are like, oh, I need to
decide whether low touch or
sales as sales driven. And I
feel like yeah, all have it. Our
customers like it like this, and
their customers like that. And
some people like to try it. Some
people like to talk some people
like to whatever. And then if
you want to grow your business,
then do all of it, right?
Arvid Kahl: Do you see a
tendency? Like do you see a move
more towards enterprise over
time or like a shot someone?
Moritz Dausinger: Right now it's
quite stable, actually, they go
feel like would need to look it
up, I would say 1/3, custom
contracts, custom pricing to a
third is credit card. As is
like.
Arvid Kahl: That's I think like
that, that immediately makes me
think of technical
implementation of that kind of
pricing structure. I don't want
to dive into it too much. But
I'm thinking, if this is what
can happen to a business, it
makes a lot of sense to think of
your pricing structure, when you
start building your business is
something very flexible, right?
Like, how did you how did you
think about this? Like, how did
you build?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, there
was actually one pivotal point
title, I don't know how to say
it. But Pivotal, exactly. In the
beginning, I was charging based
on survey responses. The more
survey responses you collect per
month, the more you pay me,
didn't work out, because there
were a huge companies which were
which were synchronizing all
their user data to me. So I was
like, crunching a lot of user
data just to have like 50
responses, because they just
wanted to serve a really tiny
segment of the user base. So I
switched the model to what I
call monthly of what what is
called, commonly called monthly
active users. So the more users
you are having, the more data
you're synchronizing with my
app, the more you need to pay,
which is kind of a better proxy
for how much value you're
actually also getting out of the
software. And this kind of stuff
is baked in into the code in
this in a way that I have an
admin back end where I can for
each account, say this is their
quarter, then and also have
feature flags, for example, they
can access the translation
feature, they can do this and
this and this. And the way
technically it is done is like
somebody on a normal plan on the
essential to growth plan will
have by default, all the
settings as written in my config
file, but I can go in and
override them. And then there's
this one special plan which is
called the Enterprise plan and
there it's based Usually, the
default settings are really
generous. And I can still also
go in and override for every
account to thing. And then on
the billing side I using I'm
using charge B, which also
allows me to set for every
customer on the Enterprise plan,
a custom amount. And so this is
where you see comes also this
all about automation before,
that I'm dealing with invoices
and stuff all day long. And the
downside is really like the
bigger customers. It's so nice
if you have suddenly like $500
Mr. On top, because there's this
one new customer, but this
customer needs to have a new
invoice in one year. So
whichever reminder in one year,
you're going to send it and you
need to send a couple of weeks
before because they takes them
some time. And so yeah, there
comes the ops complexity.
Arvid Kahl: I guess it's worth
it. Right. That's that's kind of
what I'm hearing I keep these
big customers that their value
metric is pretty, pretty
scalable. I do wonder how much
does this cost to run? Because
if you ingest all this data, you
kind of have to have some kind
of cloud hosting and all that.
Is that manageable? Like how do
you manage that cost down?
Moritz Dausinger: It is an
issue, right? So my approach to
the past was always, as a tiny
team, I'm happy to pay more to
AWS for managed services, Manage
Database, manage queuing, all
the you know, the SQS, the s3,
the RDS, it's such a really, if
you just it just it's just
running. And well, there's a
price to it. And the price is
now becoming so big that I could
actually basically hire
somebody. Maybe not full time.
But I could definitely spend
some money on somebody who can
help me putting all this on bare
metal and let it run for her
know, maybe 1/10 of the cost.
Because right now I'm at the
point where I'm between 15 and
20% of the Mr. Which goes
straight to AWS. And I know that
in the past, it was more like
for my other businesses like
five to 10, which I don't know
if there's a benchmark out
there, but I know there are lots
of very, very successful
businesses which are paying a
couple of $100 per month. So the
the cost for me right now is
like really one of the it's
definitely a topic and with 20%
of your MRR going straight to
the hosting provider. It's
painful. Yeah.
Arvid Kahl: Oh, yeah, that is
expensive. It does remind me of
what we did with Vita panda.
Because we did hosted database,
like my managed database stuff
as well. I think we paid like it
when we sold. We had 55,000 and
MRR and I think at least 5000 of
that was an expense just purely
to I think Mongo HQ was the name
of it composed was so was later
bought by bought by IBM at some
point. It's just for database,
which
Moritz Dausinger: is 10% off to
present. But that was
Arvid Kahl: almost the only
expense we had. So we were good.
But you know, it's still it's
substantial. it's substantial.
And you're right at that point,
if you if you pay $5,000 a month
for something that would cost
you maybe a couple hundreds in,
like the technical expenses, you
could pay the remaining 4500 To
a person to be there all the
time and dealing with it. It's
just I always, in my own mind, I
always thought I'm paying 5000
To compose because they have a
team of 20 people that if
something goes down, it's up
again, because they're working
in shifts. If there is like a
zero day exploit somewhere, they
immediately patched a system,
you know, if a server explodes
or what wasn't that like in I
don't know if it was in France,
or something recently, where
there was this flooding into the
data center. Like if that
happens, somebody is swimming to
my server and making sure it's
still running. You know, that's
kind of what you pay for it
Moritz Dausinger: moment.
Exactly the approach that I had,
like, whatever I can the hosting
sites, give to a managed
service. And I would really
recommend that actually, like I
would definitely not recommend
trying to save 100 bucks in the
beginning and then run your own
database server and rescue
business because maybe you
misconfigured it and your
database is gone. Right. I mean,
that's risky. That's a major
risk. And yeah, but as I said
before, like right now I'm
coming to a point where I feel
like something should be done
about.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, you're right,
though. Like it's not just
misconfigured. And then it's
kind of gone because it
implodes, but also somebody
might just really get access to
all your customer data. Right.
So and the more you move into
your kind of compliance level
enterprise sales demo, you have
to be absolutely clear that the
thing you checked on their
checkbox is actually protected.
Right?
Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. So for
the audit. That's another really
big point, folks. Somebody in
the GDPR world, we are hosting
in Europe because of that. And
AWS allows us to do that.
Security wise, the data is
encrypted in transit, and also
addressed this kind of stuff,
like, yeah, you can do all this,
but I am not a DevOps engineer.
And these guys are super
expensive. And yeah, as you
said, you you're not getting
this level of riobel reliability
yourself. And this is why I'm
kind of continuing with it. And
it's already one year that I'm
saying I need to reduce the
cost. But then
Arvid Kahl: well, you'll find
you'll find the right time for
that kind of kind of brings me
to kind of the the final
question where, what are your
future plans for refiner?
where's this going? What do you
what do you plan for the next
couple years? Or do you even
have plans? I'd like to know,
Moritz Dausinger: it's a really
good question. So like, on the
product side, there are a couple
of things I could do. Because,
you know, like with refinery,
basically in the product, that
would be a web app or mobile app
where I'm displaying inside the
app survey. And a couple of
other tools exist. They are like
onboarding, tool tips, or
checklists, whatever you can,
you can do a lot of action stuff
inside an app. So I could branch
out there. There's another
opportunity where it could
branch out more into the data
crunching and maybe add a layer
of that you can also send me
product usage data, then I could
do stuff like, look, power
users, more satisfied and no
power users. And I mean, we can
do that already today with
integrations and our customers
are doing that. But I could
build that in into my product.
So there's lots of stuff I could
do. And at the same time, I'm
feeling like, well, maybe
refiner is justice, pro poor
tool thing. There's very, very
specific tool, which allows you
to do the best possible in app
survey experience. And it's fine
like that, you know, like, I'm
not really, I didn't decide on
that right now. And in terms of
the company, like, what I would
like to do, is definitely hire
support and Customer Success
people. So that this is off my
chest like because you know,
like being in the owner or like
a solo founder. And everybody
knows it, right? If there's so
much freedom, there's so much
good parts about it. But one of
the huge downside is you are
responsible all the time. And I
can right now, like when I go on
vacation, I can put it down to
like 15 to 30 minutes per day on
the good days. And so I need to
check him out in the morning.
And I'm telling myself, well,
that's fine. That's a good price
to pay for all the freedom which
comes along. But I think one of
the goals would be to be at a
point where the team is like,
really bulletproof. And I can
say, if I don't get an SMS or
phone call, I consider
everything is going fine. And I
said we're gonna go.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that sounds
like the perfect. It's kind of
reminds me of what John
Warrillow was saying and built a
cell, like the perfect sellable
business is a business that can
run without you where you remove
yourself from operations. So
that's kind of almost the
logical follow up questions. I
know, you're thinking about
eventually exiting the business,
is it going to be sold one day?
What do you think?
Moritz Dausinger: You know, you
never know. Right now isn't a
good time. I think now, it's not
the right time. For several
reasons, I think. Not actually
not for several reasons. It's
just not at the point where I
would like to let it go. There's
really like just so much stuff.
I can still do. I want to do.
But yeah, it's talking to us
again. Yeah, that's
Arvid Kahl: right. Yeah, that's
I think that's that's the
mentality that indie hackers
just develop at some point.
Right? We will see also, not now
maybe, depends on the offer.
Right? It's always it's always
combination of,
Moritz Dausinger: and what you
just mentioned, right? I don't
know who said it, like, maybe it
was also Kevin. A business that
is easy to run, and business,
which is easy to sell, like
basically what you just said
before, like in different words.
And it's kind of should be, I
mean, there are times where
you're pushing in times where
you're giving all you have to
make it grow as fast as
possible. And I feel like the
next step for refiner might be
this well, it's a marathon.
Let's do cool things down and
then everything can happen
right? Then I can run it for 10
more years because it's cause
Hackley. Salad, whatever
Arvid Kahl: I loved, I love the
idea of like calming it down.
Because once you're calm, you
see more things like you're not
in this kind of chaotic panic
mode, because every fire needs
to be doused immediately right
but you Good. Okay, now this is
a way I could go or let's just
slightly move over here. I think
that is exactly right. I'm, I'm
super pumped to just follow your
journey along. And I, I
certainly hope you're going to
be more active on Twitter, I'm
going to try and follow you on
every podcast you go at any
point, obviously, but I would
love to see you share more of
this because I think the journey
of a business that had to pivot
like 18 months in and is now
profitable, and then growing and
finding enterprise customers,
that is a story that is eight
super successful compared to
many other people's stories,
even though you might feel like
you're still in the middle of
it, but just look at it from
somebody who has nothing, right.
This is a glowing example of how
it could look like. And it's
something that I just want to
see these little steps that you
take off, I want to see, what
are you trying here? Are you are
you branching out to, you know,
your tooltip kind of onboarding
thing? Or are you actually
focusing on just being the
product that does this? This is
exciting for me to just follow
along the journey. So I would
love for you to do this. And
that brings me to my last
question. Where can people find
more about you? And where can
they follow that journey that I
just promised them.
Moritz Dausinger: So as I'm now
restarting to use, Twitter is
the best place definitely like,
I feel like it's for me, it's
still the place where I can,
most easily and most freely, to
speak my mind about the
business. And I'm, you know,
like, also Twitter is for me,
like pure business. I'm not
really. I'm not sharing personal
stuff there. So yeah, please go
to Twitter and Dow Zinger. I
guess even a LinkedIn up. And I
promise, I promise I will be
more active there.
Arvid Kahl: I don't I don't want
to put you on the spot. But I
would love to see it because I
think the community can benefit
so much from you. I think they
already have I certainly have.
And again to bring this to a
close. Thank you so much for
everything you have done over
the last six years in being
there for people sharing your
story, sharing your knowledge,
and for keeping hopefully
keeping keeping at it and
keeping sharing your story,
which was a wonderful
conversation. Thank you so much
for being on the show.
Moritz Dausinger: It's my
pleasure and really mean it and
thank you for inviting me.
Arvid Kahl: Absolutely. Thank
you.
And that's it for today. Thank
you for listening to The
Bootstrapped Founder. You can
find me on Twitter, if Twitter
is still there, @arvidkahl. You
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Any of this, will really really
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much for listening and have a
wonderful day. Bye bye