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Welcome to the 'Lead Smarter. Not Harder' Podcast by David Kent, your window into the minds of visionary leaders, trailblazing innovators, and savvy business owners.
Get ready to immerse yourself in the captivating stories and invaluable lessons from the best and brightest minds in the business.
David Kent (00:01.154)
Hey Kelly, thank you for joining us and having another chat with me. I enjoyed getting a chance to chat with you a few times leading up to this learning about what you've done, learning about your own path into leadership. And I'd really love to dive in with you about some of the experiences you've had. And really, if you could tell me, I know that some of the things we talked about related to middle management, paths to management and leadership. I'd love to learn a little bit about your perspective when you talk about.
specifically let's talk about when it comes to management paths or leadership paths, people that are trying to become leaders themselves. From my experience and things that I've learned just from my conversations and looking out there in the world, it seems to me like the path to leadership in most situations seems broken to me. And the only reason I say that is if you think about like the most common things people think about, like an entrepreneur who starts a business because they're trying to sell services or trying to sell products.
And they just get to a point where now they have to leave people or people that are going to be employees and they raise up and elevate themselves inside an organization. They become leaders based on how well they did in a job, which may have nothing to do with leadership in terms of people. And you see this all over. mean, I could point to people that get elected that because of their popularity, not because of having a high level of competency and leadership.
I'm curious about what your thoughts are when it comes to common paths to leadership. And if you have a similar experience in that maybe it seems almost like an afterthought in terms of like the leadership is based on born out of necessity from these processes rather than competency. I'm curious, that your experience? Could you tell me a little bit about your thoughts on that?
Kelly Hirn (01:48.3)
Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, David, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I have really enjoyed our conversations as well. So looking forward to continuing. But yeah, it is so interesting these paths to leadership and how they seem to so naturally come out of doing the work, whether you're an entrepreneur or you're getting promoted in the workplace, they seem to come from
You do so well at doing the work that you either need to hire more people or they want you in charge of the work for other people in your organization. And while that can feel like the natural way to go, then we end up missing this critical aspect, which actually I will say entrepreneurs have a little bit of a cheat code on this. But the piece that we tend to miss is communicating that vision for where we're going.
And so when you are in an organization and you're really good at, say, getting sales, you're really good at making the sales calls, and then they promote you to manage the team of salespeople, you end up micromanaging them because you're so focused on doing the work and how your way was the best way. Entrepreneurs have a little bit of that same issue where oftentimes we start out doing all of the work ourselves, right?
We know how we want it all done. We have had such a grasp on it that then when we start to bring in people to help, it can be hard to let that go. But like I said, entrepreneurs get a little bit of a cheat code because they know that vision. They know why they started and they know how they want to serve the world or serve their community in most cases. And so then it just becomes, how do we make that connection? How do we connect that both in the work we're doing?
for the people that we're working with and to our customers.
David Kent (03:50.638)
I will say having been an entrepreneur myself, having built businesses and things like that, I've fallen into the struggle of, I guess, maybe second guessing that vision and then trying to impose that vision on others to try to bring them along with me. I guess you could call it like imposter syndrome. So if they have that cheat code, I'm a little bit jealous because I don't feel like I always have it locked in that vision. And I always feel a little uncertain myself to try to bring somebody else along.
Kelly Hirn (04:09.505)
Yeah.
Kelly Hirn (04:13.292)
Yes.
Kelly Hirn (04:20.182)
Mm-hmm.
David Kent (04:20.266)
I tend to fall back and want to have buy-in. Maybe it's just my own leadership style. But I have definitely heard lots of leaders in that, I guess, the entrepreneur space that have that imposter syndrome and they are in charge of the vision and getting people to adopt that vision. And I enjoy that space. It's got lots of highs and lows. But what's your experience as you're mentoring and coaching leaders? Maybe they're in that space as well. Do they run into that?
the ones that maybe have that cheat code, do they also have a other side of the coin to that?
Kelly Hirn (04:52.45)
you
Absolutely, David. So I think that you actually just said it beautifully because you can have that cheat code, but if you aren't entering it in a way that connects the dots, it can only help you so much. So it's a cheat code over this person in a larger organization who's promoted to that next step because they probably need to first understand the vision. It isn't going to bring you.
all the way there certainly. So I can completely understand that imposter syndrome. But like you said, you have it, you can just lose sight of it sometimes. And often that happens because people are trying to do either or. They're trying to see like, okay, I'm either the visionary in the company or I'm the integrator. And if you're going to be a truly great leader, you have to have a little bit of both. Now, for the...
entrepreneurs who have read that book and know that those are truly two different roles, I get it. I'm not trying to say you have to wear all of the hats. I'm just saying you have to have a piece of both sides so that you can help people see how what they're doing connects to that vision. And when you really develop those leadership skills is when that becomes really fluid and you're able to just kind of bounce back and forth.
in a way that seems more effortless. But it does take some time and some practice. It isn't something that just giving the cheat code is not going to get you all the way to the end of the game. I'm not a gamer, so I don't know why I'm making these references. I know we're stuck hard at some point here, but this metaphor will probably only serve me this long. But yeah, you have to be able to use it and then have the skills to support it to really connect those dots.
David Kent (06:42.974)
I love that you identified this path of analogy you're going down and stopped me from going deeper with you. I don't, I don't play games. Don't, don't, don't take me down there. I thank you for catching me on that one actually, but you did touch on a few things that I'm really interested in. One personally, having read that book and having been in organizations where, mean, I'd say most of my career leading up to eventually breaking out and being a business owner myself, like purely was in an integrator position. and I think, and maybe, that.
Kelly Hirn (06:46.85)
You
Kelly Hirn (06:51.27)
Hahaha!
David Kent (07:11.8)
could be true for lots of people where they've helped build somebody's business, worked alongside owners and things like that, and then decided to go out on their own. And I'd say that for me, that transition was difficult and has been difficult to take a vision now having to lead the vision of it rather than being the guy behind the scenes helping. Yeah, for example, this podcast, I'm not used to being in front of people and having to speak this way. I'm used to advising somebody, much like I assume you do. So do you find yourself
Kelly Hirn (07:38.401)
Okay.
David Kent (07:41.546)
advising people behind the scenes similarly as do you see coaching is similar to integrator role, even though you're not doing the executing, you're kind of identifying how to lay this out. How would you describe that for your experience with people you're coaching?
Kelly Hirn (07:56.948)
sure. So when I'm coaching people, a lot of what I'm doing is reminding them of the two sides. So I was just working with one of my clients leads a brick and mortar construction business. So she is helping her technicians to see the vision and where the business is going. But also they need to be able to do, you know, the installations and the day to day work.
So a lot of what I'm helping her with is let's keep your visions and your vision and your values and your goals front of mind. Don't just push those to the back. This isn't annual planning. This isn't quarterly planning. We need to have that part of the every single day. And then what are those pieces that you're doing throughout the day that we can enhance by bringing in that vision? And that's where you really build the muscle to do it effortlessly.
So we're meeting every single week and going through the real time challenges that any entrepreneur has as they're running a business of, know, this person doesn't seem to get it the way I get it. Well, of course they're not going to, it's your baby, not theirs. And this person, you know, wants to leave at a certain time where I see dedication as putting in all of the hours. You know, that's...
It just evolves and you have to be able to, as the leader, have to be able to equate that and help them see your vision for the business, what's in it for them to truly get behind it. But it's just one of those things that it's almost like a hiccup. Like you have to just have that continuous cadence. You're gonna fail at it sometimes, but.
Having that continuous cadence is going to build up that repetition, both for your own skill to kind of get rid of that imposter syndrome, but also build that confidence for your team too, that they can see that in you, that you really want to help them get to the next step, just as much as you want to help your business, your baby, get to that next step as well.
David Kent (10:07.69)
I like that we've actually started going, and I didn't actually plan on this, but going down the path of talking about the, I'd say the visionary and the integrator. I almost see it as a similar relationship as, mean, you could take it all the way down to supervisor and employee or somebody that's going to be rising up the ranks. And actually I did want to talk to you about that as well. So when it comes to, maybe in a bigger organization, you've had this experience, we talked about this as well, where you had.
reached a point in management, but then you've got somebody who's managing over you and they either are going to enable you and you can grow in leadership or they're going to block you in some ways. And that can be a difficult space in a relationship, especially when you're trying to develop yourself as a leader. Could you tell me a little bit about that experience that you had and maybe where you see that role of a, I don't want to call it a middle manager, but maybe a middle manager in terms of leadership inside a larger organization, cause it's such a common role.
Kelly Hirn (11:01.57)
Mm-hmm.
David Kent (11:05.336)
for people that maybe start in their leadership journey becoming a middle manager for raising up.
Kelly Hirn (11:10.496)
Yeah, absolutely. So that middle manager role in my mind is one of the most critical pieces to a company's success. Because if you think about it, that supervisory role is, you know, they're really managing the day to day and they need to have their hands a little bit more in it. And those higher level leaders, those executive leaders, they are the ones who are truly casting the vision coming up.
the ideas and that leaves that middle manager to really have a foot in both camps of that integrator and that visionary because they have to see where everything is going and figure out how to translate that into the doing for the supervisor so they can keep it organized for all the employees. So that is the exact path that I was on. I will say I was fortunate enough in my in my first corporate leadership role I had led in other
industries prior to that. But in my first corporate leadership role, I had the good fortune of not knowing how to do what my team did. I had never done any of the work that my team did when I got promoted to that role. And I say it's good fortune because it really prompted me to have to think differently. I couldn't fall into the trap of micromanagement because I didn't know how to do it. So I couldn't say, I know best.
And so it really forced me to take a different look at it. But as I progressed in that role, that good fortune gave me a very unique view of how to leverage their strengths and really trust and build that connection with my team. My boss, on the other hand, at the time, was struggling with how I was building that buy-in and really
was able to leverage some great results. And so I believe she was somewhat threatened at the time. And so she really put in some effort to, in her mind, help me. But really, it was trying to force me down a more traditional path that was just going to stump the growth that I was having. where we...
Kelly Hirn (13:32.854)
talk about being the integrator, being the visionary, I had, my thought process had surpassed where hers was at at the time. She really felt the need to micromanage the work that was happening. And again, I had the good fortune of not being able to do that. So was able to rise above that and she felt the need to kind of put me back in that box. It was incredibly difficult. We had a really rough time there for a while, but I realized
And we talked about this before, David, I realized that it's a product of how you're brought up in that environment and the leaders that you have around you. So if for her entire career up to that point, the expectation was that people follow that really basic path and they do the work and then they're promoted to supervise it and then they manage it. Like if you just think everyone's supposed to rise up that ladder.
and here I am, you know, some 25 year old kid who jumped from the bottom rung up, you know, 12 notches, that can be scary and confusing and frustrating. And so I don't blame her anymore. But at the time it was a really tough thing for the two of us to work through.
David Kent (14:48.268)
I there's actually I feel like there's lots of lessons in what you've described. So I'd say from the outside, I've heard very similar examples, but maybe not. Maybe not with the level of depth you just described. I've heard often that you ideally want to manage work and lead people not manage people and in the example you just described, you couldn't manage people's work, you couldn't manage them to do the work because you didn't know what that was.
an interesting competitive advantage to come into it that in that way. And I, I've similarly experienced like my team members are really, really good at some things that I do not know how to do. And I, and I, I know it's a mistake to pretend that I do like, will just cause them to slow down. I'm going to just be in the way. And I'm really interested in what one I'm interested in how, how you got to a point like that sounds like a non-traditional path, which broke what would be otherwise a broken path.
Kelly Hirn (15:32.204)
Yeah.
David Kent (15:44.886)
It's my experience. So you've created what seems like the right way to enter a relationship with a team so that you can basically come in as a support for the team and bring them up into where they're going to be most effective rather than diving into between them and the work. It sounds like, could you tell me how did you get there? I don't know if that's going to be something people can do it commonly, but how did you manage to navigate that without following that same path of.
Kelly Hirn (16:13.388)
Sure. So for me, it was a lot of staying curious. Like I said, I didn't have the ability to say that this is the one right way. I also, I was pretty young when I got promoted to that position and there were a number of people with, was managing three different teams at the time. And so,
David Kent (16:14.851)
Yeah.
Kelly Hirn (16:39.54)
there were a number of people within those teams who had more years of tenure than I had years of life. And so the, I could not have an ego because that just wasn't going to work. You know, if I'm the age of their children, they aren't interested in my ego. They are only interested in what I can do to help them. And so it was this really immersive experience that everybody can recreate. You just have to
let go of your own ego if you aren't forced into it like I was. So it was a lot of just living in the curious of what's going on for you? How can I support this to make it better for you? What would happen if we pulled these different levers? All of those are questions. None of those are talking at someone. And so that is really the key. And when I am
coaching people, that's probably the thing I say the most often is, what would this look like if you came at it with curiosity instead of an assumption? Your assumptions might be right, especially if you are the person who started the business, if you have done every role, or if you are the person who got promoted in that really traditional way. Odds are your assumption is at least partially right, but there's no reason to start there.
just start with curiosity because it's going to build so much more trust and people will want to come alongside you. I know you didn't ask this part, but it's really important that people understand that leadership has shifted and people don't necessarily want to just follow anymore. They used to, and that's part of the reason why that prior boss of mine was getting so frustrated was I wasn't,
I didn't want to follow her, had no need to follow her. Well, now it's becoming even more common. People want to have connection. They want to do something that they feel like is important to them. They want to do work that's important. They want to do with it, do it with people that are important to them, but they want the autonomy to do it the way they see is best, or at least have a voice in making a decision around what that is. And so if you come at it with curiosity,
Kelly Hirn (19:01.794)
Even if you don't take, you know, Suzy's idea on how to advance the ball on this project or, you know, change the sales script or whatever it is, you at least have gone to her and said, hey, what do you think about this? And people are so much more receptive just because you came at it with curiosity, just because you asked the question.
David Kent (19:22.722)
That's, I, I like that approach. I think I try to take that approach and not realize that I'm doing it. The approach I take is I assume I'm wrong. Whatever it is, I'm assuming first that I'm wrong. And I am looking for somebody else because I, I know what my own limitations are to a degree. And the last thing I want to do is be capped by what I'm capable of. Cause then especially, and specifically like my team as well, I don't want them to be limited by my capabilities. So that I'd rather.
Kelly Hirn (19:43.084)
Mm-hmm.
David Kent (19:51.936)
Assume I'm wrong, hope that they can collectively come up with something better, and then hopefully support whatever that is. One of the things you mentioned is your boss had a different maybe experience or maybe they had a different idea as to how you should progress through an organization and rise into leadership. And I get that a lot I work with. I hate to put it in this way. I don't know how to put it differently, but people that have just
grown up under different social norms, maybe in leadership. That's probably a better way to put it. So people that have themselves gone through their career in a time where that more like rigid hierarchy structure of do it my way and then the person below you does it their way and continues down. I feel like that is a common, maybe older and older in terms of like.
Kelly Hirn (20:37.346)
Mm-hmm.
David Kent (20:50.114)
You're right. You mentioned things are changing now. I don't know how to get people that I'm really close to that I do business with to change that mindset. And I don't, I don't intend to try to force it, but I am interested in, your coaching people that have probably built careers very successfully under these other structures. So how do you have conversations with them and have that help them?
Kelly Hirn (20:52.29)
Mm-hmm.
David Kent (21:18.158)
through what I guess would be a transition of how things worked for them to get them to be successful up until it doesn't work the same way anymore.
Kelly Hirn (21:26.946)
Sure.
So I think what I'm understanding your question to be is how do you help those other people move through that?
David Kent (21:36.814)
I'd say like, yeah, the established leaders that have been successful, how do you help them transition into a time where leadership is different now than it was when they became successful?
Kelly Hirn (21:46.028)
Sure. So it's really through objective demonstration, that we achieve through communication. So that's a lot of shun words, right? But what we're, what we're really saying there is you have to share with people, you have to communicate why something different works by giving examples of where it worked. And so if you're working with some of that more
I'm not gonna be as PC as you were about it, but more of that old school leadership type of thing where you're just really managing the people and managing the world. You have to give examples respectfully that show that we get better results when we handle things a different way. I had one great example, because I coach everybody from.
David Kent (22:24.035)
Right.
Kelly Hirn (22:41.578)
C-suite business owners all the way to individual contributors within large organizations. And I was working with a project manager for a very large global corporation. And she was being asked to come into meetings with the proverbial old white man, right? There's several layers of leadership. They all seem to look exactly the same and be about 60 years old.
And so when this young kid in their mind walks into the room and says, no, I get what you're saying, but we're going to go a completely different path. And they're saying, well, we've taken the same highway for years. Why are we going to go walk down that gravel road? She had to come up with smaller examples of why making these changes worked. it's not that what you built was bad.
David Kent (23:26.168)
Right.
Kelly Hirn (23:40.214)
John, it's that we can move quicker if we align everybody. If we take these silos down, we allow people to communicate and work on cross-functional teams. If we do that and we position these teams to work on projects that will not combat each other, but actually be fluid together, then we'll be able to move forward on these initiatives and get back to those things that you see as really important too.
David Kent (24:00.908)
Right.
Kelly Hirn (24:09.602)
So it's demonstrating it, usually at a micro level, because you're trying to get more opportunities to do this bigger stuff, So you're giving smaller examples of why it works, and then making that connection back to them, because vision isn't just for the company, it's for the individual too. why is it important, I don't mean to pick on John, but why is it important to John to come back and does he have projects he wants to work on? Does he have a golf game he wants to get back to? Does he?
David Kent (24:15.96)
Sure.
Kelly Hirn (24:37.824)
you know, is he trying to transition into retirement or whatever the case may be, you have to know that for him, show the examples of how we get results this way, and then say, and what's in it for you is this. So it's leadership, but up, or leadership, but sideways. And so it's just influencing in really that same way. You just may, you know, tenor the message just a little bit so that it still comes out in that respectful.
David Kent (24:54.669)
Yes.
Kelly Hirn (25:07.926)
when you gotta work with those people.
David Kent (25:08.962)
Well, and you brought up, that was actually going to be my next question. So I, I, I know that you had mentioned being in middle management, that level of importance to an organization. And you talked about how to manage team and that you've done it yourself coming in with curiosity. this, this description I was going over with people that, and I think you actually said it really well, people that maybe are in their sixties, which is probably the, let's just call it the boomer age of those who are probably now pretty, they're on.
Kelly Hirn (25:21.666)
you
David Kent (25:37.676)
the upper end of their executive or their business management career. And they're pretty established at that point in their ways. The middle management role, part of why I was wanting to come back to that is because I know that that role specifically has to manage in both directions. Well, literally all directions. I love that you talked about having cross-functional teams. I think about that as like a distributed decision-making. How far to the front of the line can you bring the decision-making and enable them to make decisions?
Kelly Hirn (26:07.81)
Mm-hmm.
David Kent (26:07.82)
And I think for entrepreneurs who are struggling to bring on anybody at all and let go of control of anything all the way through to an executive who's like established themselves and now is trying to figure out a different way to do things so that they can all be more agile. I think giving examples of how to manage in all directions is really helpful. It's helpful to me for you to describe that. I know that you've also mentioned starting small. So I would be interested in like a team who
Do you have examples of how you did that in your own organization? You described your relationship with your boss and you had to try to create some room for yourself to grow in your own leadership. How did you manage that example of, know, here's what couldn't work. You're just small example. And I'm trying to grow that, or did it just become where you've, really found that wall and she was just not looking to have it was trying to resist down.
Kelly Hirn (27:03.298)
So I like to think that this part of my example is unique, but it probably isn't. I'm sure there's going to be listeners who resonate with this. She was an absolute wall to the point that she removed me from any sort of meeting or decision-making position.
I had shared committees and been on all these cross-functional teams, and she removed me from all of it, telling me instead, no, but I'm going to give you the solution. So she was the wall. And so I believe very strongly in putting your energy into the things that energize you. I could have continued to beat my head against that wall, but
David Kent (27:36.046)
Now you're gonna terrify all the listeners. I'm sorry, okay, go ahead.
Kelly Hirn (27:58.572)
There was no point in that. There was nothing to be gained by that except both of us getting a few bruises. So I didn't do that. Instead, I put that energy into leading and influencing people around her. instead of, I never looked at my career as that ladder. That wasn't how it started anyway. So I might as well branch out, right? Go to the sides. Not that I was trying to bypass her necessarily, but I could add more value.
to the people who were in these other departments. And then you know what happened? They started to see those micro examples of where things were going well, and they didn't bother to ask my boss if she wanted me on different projects. They just said, you know what? I think Kelly's gonna be able to be helpful here, so let's put her on this project. I think Kelly's going to really be able to communicate this
organization-wide project really well, let's have her talk at the entire town hall that goes to the thousands and thousands of employees. we just decided, or we just forgot to loop in her manager on this whole thing and ask them permission. So you have the ability, but you have to stop focusing on the problem and start focusing on where you can actually make an impact. Because whether you are...
in a very small organization or in really large organization, you have more power and control than you ever give yourself credit for. You just have to get curious with yourself to figure out how to make that work.
David Kent (29:36.302)
I love this example. I don't think what I'm going to say is perfectly relevant, but I've called situations like that where I'm trying to communicate or get aligned with somebody that maybe requires more people than just a conversation between them. I tend to call that like track two diplomacy. And I also try to find ways to... So in that space, I love that you're saying don't focus as much on the problem, try to find ways to be a solution and be curious.
Kelly Hirn (29:55.202)
I'm
David Kent (30:05.518)
Um, so in some, situations like that, tell team members of mine, uh, team members that are placed with an organization and they're struggling directly with their own leadership. have conversations with them. when we, when I'm talking to them, I try to advise them to be like the, understanding or the best way I've found to be invulnerable is to be completely vulnerable. So like I didn't be as transparent as possible and focus on how you're trying to support the organization. And if you're still getting attacked, it's not about you. And it's, very clearly not about you and everybody else can see it.
Kelly Hirn (30:32.502)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
David Kent (30:36.014)
Um, so that sounds like a very, um, Positive tactic you took that was adopted really well around you. And it turns, it sounds like it turned out great. I love that strategy. And I definitely try to advise people to do something similar, but I've never heard it happening in an organization like that at scale, like you did in it being brought into speak in front of thousands of people. So it sounds like that worked perfectly. Um, I.
Kelly Hirn (30:58.548)
Yeah. I will say, I want to give another example, because I know that that sounds like a little grandiose, right? But going back to that same individual contributor that I was coaching, where she was going in to work with those senior level leaders, she was still continuing to be kind of put in her place, so to speak. And so what she ended up doing
David Kent (31:03.021)
Yeah.
Sure.
Kelly Hirn (31:25.76)
was taking all of those micro examples and found one ally. She found one ally within those leaders who really saw the value of what she was doing. And she helped him understand that they would get further ahead if that old school leadership saw her as more on par. And he said, I'm paraphrasing this, but.
He said, so you would need to have some sort of promotion then for them to take you seriously because title and rank is so important to them. Yes, absolutely, that's what I need. So he actually asked her to write up a job description that she could, you know, that would fit this role. I helped her craft that in a way that obviously she was the best person for that job. And she was promoted within six
weeks to this job that I'm not going to say was on par with all of these senior leaders, but gave her enough clout in their mind that they were a little bit more open to her ideas. So it's, again, that's, it's not speaking to exactly their values and what's in it for them, but it's speaking to what they see as important and what they value overall. Because for a lot of folks, it really is the title.
David Kent (32:47.224)
Sushi.
David Kent (32:50.892)
And you gave so it sounds like you gave her basically the path that she needed with an ally to get a position to have a voice, which that's awesome. I love that you help people. It sounds like you're helping people all the way from maybe earlier in their career in their leadership journey all the way through to people that are owning businesses, managing businesses, executives. Where do you find yourself spending the most time in people's leadership journey with your own clients?
Kelly Hirn (33:00.576)
Absolutely.
David Kent (33:18.796)
Is it people earlier on or are you finding that even the people that are trying to be established leaders to change their mindset? Is that also where you spend a lot of your time?
Kelly Hirn (33:29.834)
I would say I spend, I would say the bulk of my coaching clients that I'm working with one on one, those are typically more established in their careers. they're new in a position oftentimes, or new in a new project or a new responsibility that they have, but they are.
established in their career as leaders. So they've been leading for 15, 20 years, but they're just now taking their first step into executive leadership. Or they have been in their role a while, but now because of budget cuts and all of that, they've been asked to take on another team or something like that. And they need to have an understanding of how do I... I've always managed by knowing the work. Now I have 30 more people and I have no idea what they do. How do I manage that?
So it's it's oftentimes established but with a twist
David Kent (34:32.639)
It almost sounds like the description of your own career when you had stepped into not knowing what those people did and you started managing them. It sounds like that's the sweet spot for you almost.
Kelly Hirn (34:41.538)
It is a sweet spot in that they, I think I inspire the, not that sounded weird, but I think I can help people see what's possible when they have that imposter syndrome because this old school thought of what leadership is supposed to be is still pervasive. People can see a glimmer of like, no, I want this to be different.
but they don't always know that it's possible because they've seen so many examples of going about it a different way. And so I think that's where people then start resonating with my content, whether it's on Instagram or LinkedIn or YouTube, and they say, well, if she did it or if the other clients were able to do that, then maybe there is a way to actually take that next step and be confident and excited about the leadership journey that I'm on or that I want to be on.
David Kent (35:41.294)
Well, given that you've given some examples of the fact that you put out content on the socials, and I know that wasn't a selfless plug, but I did want to actually ask you now that we're starting to get towards the end, I would love to know what books would you recommend for the people that are listening now, maybe that are earlier in their careers, similar to the people that you talk to, what are the kind of books you might recommend to your audience?
Kelly Hirn (35:47.508)
Yeah.
Kelly Hirn (36:04.354)
Sure, sure. So I have a whole library on my website of books that I recommend, whether you are an individual looking to just build your influence and personal leadership, or if you are established in leadership. Depending on where you are, I typically provide different books, but Strengths-Based Leadership is an assessment.
and a book in one, that is one that I use with every single client I work with because understanding your specific cocktail of strengths is just so transformative in saying, okay, I can do this, me, I don't have to be that square peg trying to fit into a round hole. So, Strengths Based Leadership is a very important book that I use all the time. Also, start with why with Simon Sinek.
oldie but goodie. And I really recommend that one for people who are struggling to say, well, how do I establish what this vision is? Like I said, for entrepreneurs, that's not always the they kind of have the cheat code for that one. But if you're working in a bigger organization, that can be one that I really recommend. This one, this last one is going to be one of the oldest books, but
David Kent (37:10.062)
Okay.
Kelly Hirn (37:27.382)
Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. This book is almost 100 years old. But if I had to write the leadership curriculum for the world, every single person would read that book. It is timeless. And it really focuses on getting curious and putting that spotlight on other people. Because that's what a leader needs to do in order to elevate everybody. You have to put that spotlight on others.
But I can give you the link to the library because there's a ton more of them. Perfect.
David Kent (37:54.914)
It's I.
would actually like the link personally. yes, thank you. Yes. Also, like, are you the kind of person who reads books multiple times? Or is it like, I've read it now I'm on to the next one. So okay, so do you have an actual count? Do know how many times you read the the last book you just referred to the how to French? Yes.
Kelly Hirn (38:07.52)
Yeah, I read them all the time.
Kelly Hirn (38:15.234)
how to win friends and influence people. Oh, goodness. I'm going to say at least four now. And I have constant stickies that bring me back to important points in that book. Because I think it's written in 1930. And so he's referencing the leadership of Lincoln and things like that in his original version of it. There's updated editions where they
David Kent (38:24.334)
Wow.
Kelly Hirn (38:43.394)
you know, give you more current examples and things like that. But it, like I said, those lessons are just so timeless. And they work from everything from getting your little kid to tie their shoes on their own and how to actually lead them through that instead of tying their shoes forever until they move out of your house. Or...
David Kent (39:05.006)
All right.
Kelly Hirn (39:06.114)
trying to influence these executives or partners that you want to have great relationships with in your multimillion dollar business. It's good for that too.
David Kent (39:18.21)
Well, on that note, what is a non professional book? What is the nonfiction? What is the book on your nightstand that is not professional development that you've been enjoying?
Kelly Hirn (39:28.354)
So right now it's a girl named Samson and it is about a woman who fought in the Revolutionary War. There were a bunch of women fighting in the Revolutionary War. It will not surprise you to know that most of the books that I read that are fiction are about strong leaders in history. So Marshall Fields, Teddy, not Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt.
Francis Perkins, all of the great leaders of history and spoiler alert, there are a lot of women great leaders in history that don't get enough credit. So Marie Benedict writes some amazing books about women in those positions that you would have never otherwise heard of. So that is kind of my favorite non-work book.
David Kent (40:18.698)
Are any of those non-workbooks in your library? Is there a way people could learn what books those are and get to learn about leaders?
Kelly Hirn (40:24.614)
I, so those I post on social quite a bit, but they are not in the library because that's focused on, on development side of things. But, yeah.
David Kent (40:33.198)
Totally makes sense. Well, thank you so much for your time on this podcast. One of the things I would love to end with is you've got your own programs, your own coaching. What are some things people could look for if they were to go to your site? Things that might be a course or something you'd want them to pay attention to and look into for themselves.
Kelly Hirn (40:52.93)
Yeah, absolutely. So for people who are looking to really take a bold action and really focus on themselves as leaders and maybe develop that communication strength, I would certainly suggest setting up a time to just talk to me about what coaching could do for you. It's not the right fit for everybody, but we work through six months of weekly coaching to...
get you to a position that you can really fluidly walk that line between what people are doing and why you're doing it to make that connection for them. The other thing that I would say for leaders who aren't as either established in their careers or their individuals who are looking to build their influence, the Lead with Confidence Challenge is a three-day challenge that really helps you to jumpstart your abilities in leadership and we run those.
about every other month. So I can give you the link to that as well. And people can check that out, jump on the wait list if it's not running or sign up for a ticket to that one.
David Kent (42:01.006)
Well, that sounds great. I know that I had mentioned earlier that I've been doing this for years myself and I still run into imposter syndrome. So I'm sure many leaders, no matter where they are in their journey would benefit from learning how to lead with confidence. So thank you for sharing that. Thank you for your time jumping on here with me. It's been great to chat with you. Looking forward to talking to you again soon. And thanks for joining the Lead Sparner podcast.
Kelly Hirn (42:12.5)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kelly Hirn (42:21.484)
Thank you, David.