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This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
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Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.616)
Thanks for joining me today, goddess.
Goddess Erica (00:01.486)
Of course. Thank you for having me.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:04.466)
There. Yeah. So I'm going to just start this off by saying this of all of the essays we're talking about in this series is the one that has me the most afraid to have a conversation because I have such conflicted feelings. And this is an area where I feel like my own values.
are most challenged versus my own personal experiences and stuff. So it should be interesting. But there is no one I'd rather have this conversation with about pornography than you, because not only like, do I just know you're amazing and you talk about pleasure and all of these things, but also I know that I just recently got, I saw that you were hosting a semi-nude meditation. like, of anyone we can talk, you are so comfortable with sex, sexuality, nudity, all of the things that I think can kind of come up inside of a conversation around pornography.
Goddess Erica (00:43.15)
I am.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:53.766)
And I have a feeling that you'll be able to challenge me on some of the places where I'm feeling still some of this internal around this topic. So anyway, so excited you're here. And I'm really curious, just like the high level, we're not going to go all the way in yet. Just kind of your overview of what you thought of this piece.
Goddess Erica (00:53.806)
Thanks.
Goddess Erica (01:02.91)
Thank you.
Goddess Erica (01:11.502)
So I went into the piece not knowing very much about the author And I'm just gonna do their names Andrea Dworkin. Yes. I was not very familiar with any of their work so it was kind of a a cold experience for me where I read it with no expectations of anything and my overall
My overall reaction to the piece is I understand that it was written in 1988, but I was actually kind of disappointed at the lack of nuance and breadth that was offered in the way that pornography is criticized.
I think that there's plenty of space for pornography to be criticized, for sure. But I think that there's also nuance in the voices that are being expressed or shared, the perspectives. I have a little bit of notes on, there was a couple of sections where I was like, is she referencing kink in this? Because that's a whole other conversation that can get a little muddy with.
with the mainstream understanding of pleasure and satisfaction and exploitation and where that line lays. So the overall takeaway from it was that I totally agreed with certain portions and where she was coming from, but overall I think that it kind of lacked a little bit of depth and nuance in it.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:57.438)
Yeah. I mean, okay, good. We're starting at a good place because I agree with you there. Like definitely was thinking, I think for what the argument was, I suppose it made sense, which is really kind of coming from this legal perspective of, and it was written in a legal journal. So this is like urging the legal industry to reframe, reconsider, put new sort of boundaries around free speech and what we think about as pornography and how we treat pornography.
Goddess Erica (03:07.704)
Yeah.
Thank
Becky Mollenkamp (03:25.074)
So in that sense, felt like, OK, I get it. But as a critique on pornography itself, I definitely was like, OK, there's a whole lot that's missing here. And it's like sort of just taking all of this idea as one thing without ever sort of saying maybe there's ways that we can look at porn. Maybe there are parts of pornography or types of pornography or subsections within pornography that are not in this big wide swath I'm painting. So we agree so far. And I do feel like I should point.
Goddess Erica (03:49.454)
Yes, definitely.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:52.07)
Yeah, and I think I should point out because I know you don't know Andrea Dworkin or didn't. I don't know how much you've read about her since. Very problematic. So I want to be very clear about that. This piece is a very well known piece and it speaks to a topic that otherwise wasn't going to be included in this season. So I wanted to use it and I want to be very clear upfront that I've also fully recognized that Andrea Dworkin has has been very is very complicated and certainly around issues of gender.
Goddess Erica (04:09.581)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:20.624)
as far as I know, and there's mixed things about that. But my understanding is that she would fall more in the category of sort of this trans exclusionary radical feminist, certainly considered herself a radical feminist. And although I've seen mixed critiques on whether or not she really was trans exclusionary, I believe the answer is yes. So I wanna put that out there just to fully acknowledge that we're not saying, this is more of a let's critique the topic and the subject and her approach to it versus her stance on feminism. Yeah.
Goddess Erica (04:47.246)
Thank you. Thank you. And I'm glad that you did because it was definitely something that I was going to bring up. Even though I, like I said, I went into it cold, I did read the background reference information that you shared as well, which was very useful. And it kind of solidified some of the things that I was getting from the piece, which was that, especially when they started talking about radical feminism and I'm like,
Becky Mollenkamp (04:49.864)
So I just feel like it's important to point that out.
Goddess Erica (05:17.154)
Are they missing the T and the E from this? Is this the early forms of turf? Because I think that we also have to be really careful when we're talking about something that is harmful or that when we're urging people in positions of power to completely outlaw something just because of a singular perspective on how it's harmful without understanding all of the underpinnings of where the harm is coming from. Because we could talk about how men,
are a huge source of the harm that is perpetuated in pornography. And this is not to say that women aren't. And this is also something that was addressed in the article that you shared, or the counterpoint article that you shared. It's not to say that men are the only perpetrators. I personally believe that women, when they are perpetrating harm towards other men or women, that
it is under the influence of societal understandings or even interpersonal understandings of sexuality and what is considered okay when you're harming another person. So yeah, I think that we just need to be careful about throwing the baby out with the bath water when we are talking about things like pornography. It's scary and definitely there's a lot of darkness in the corners, but you could say that about
pretty much any industry or institution.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:45.15)
Well, this is, okay, so here we go. We're gonna start getting into it. Because we're gonna talk about porn and my complicated feelings. And here's sort of the wide brush for me, like where I'm just gonna start, which is this idea of throwing the baby out with the bath water. And I'm feeling that when I'm reading it, like, well, this is very clearly talking about what I would not say is part of porn, but it's probably the vast majority of porn, which is this stuff that's potentially very harmful.
Goddess Erica (06:48.3)
Yeah.
Goddess Erica (07:01.806)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:14.652)
both in the way it's depicting sex and understandings around sex and domination, but also in the ways that it is created, right? We know there's a lot of issues with human trafficking and other things inside the porn industry and underage folks and all kinds of things. And I think that that actually feels to me like more of the dominant space of porn. And to me, the shadows, the outsides are actually the parts that are healthy and good and full of consent and,
Goddess Erica (07:14.84)
We're
Yeah.
Goddess Erica (07:38.85)
Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (07:41.502)
feminist porn, which exists by the way, you know, like there are those things, but it, to me, it feels like because it's so, it's not like there's these little outsides of ick and most of it's really healthy. I think because it's the other way, as I was reading this, I was struggling too to think, how do you fix something that's so fundamentally broken, even though there are parts of that are not, it almost in a way like,
Goddess Erica (07:44.405)
in the end.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:07.866)
unduly influences even the stuff that is potentially healthy, right? This piece of like this internalized stuff that we have, like how can you even know if the porn you're consuming or creating is healthy if you've only ever really understood porn through this really toxic lens? And that's where this party that just thinks we have to almost, I feel like there is a, my instinct anyway, and I am not speaking as somebody who knows the answer here, but this is just the stuff that I contend with with this issue. It feels like we almost have to start over.
Goddess Erica (08:26.67)
Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:37.726)
Like get rid of it and how do we even create porn that is healthy inside of a system that's so messed up until we fix the system? Okay, so that's where I'm at. I'm curious what you think because I don't know if you feel the same or if you're in a different place.
Goddess Erica (08:44.28)
this.
Goddess Erica (08:48.046)
This is absolutely a delicious place to dive in. so so glad that you're saying Okay, so first of all, I think that we need to acknowledge something that that maybe gets It's not ignored but it's it is is definitely not acknowledged in the the the pervasiveness and that is pornography as a
Becky Mollenkamp (08:52.382)
Okay, good, because I'm so nervous!
Goddess Erica (09:16.49)
educational tool for sex. And I'm not saying that in a positive way, the way that it currently exists, but the way that a lot of people are learning about sex, especially in a country like ours and in a lot of countries where sex education is rolled back to the absolute basics of just don't do it, of not having any information on how to do it, on how to connect, on what consent is.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:30.739)
Yes.
Goddess Erica (09:45.976)
people are getting their primary education from porn. And so I think that one of the first places that pornography needs to be addressed is how it is teaching people. And I think that one of the best ways to fix the harmful, the huge chunk of it that is harmful and through this lens of exploitation and coercion and
and sometimes even blackmail is to put people in positions of power in this system, in this industry who are not aligned to that. And so that would mean the people in the margins. And this is actually something that gets brought up on page, I'm going to find it. Yes, on page five, she says that,
Goddess Erica (10:50.828)
Nope, I think it might be a different page. Okay, so there is a page where she is talking about the idea of, well, okay, so I'll just go to page five. There's an idea of a repulsion standard. And that is that like the very worst is the thing that is protected as opposed to, yeah, this actually is a thing, okay. That the repulsion standard, that the most,
denigrating and disgust disgusting parts are the things that are protected and that the the voices of People who are actually harmed and powerless people are the ones that aren't protected and so imagine if you flip that and you had Women and queer people and trans people and people who exist in the margins running at the these studios What if you had people who were?
we're speaking from their own personally identified understanding of pleasure and expressing that and having that celebrated and having it protected. That is what it would take to actually to change the porn industry from something that's harmful and dark and scary and somewhere we want to keep our children away from to something where like we can actually be okay with.
them consuming this kind of content and full transparency. actually work very closely with a site called make love not porn, which is a site that is founded by a woman run by mostly women. And they like, they are the counterpoint to porn culture. Their, their tagline is pro porn, pro sex and pro knowing the difference. And like, you really do need to know the difference. You really need to understand that like,
you can have people who want to be perceived and their pleasure, who want to share their pleasure, who by normalizing the different ways that we have sex, not just the standard cis male focused idea of pleasure where it's using someone's holes and ways that they don't seem to really be satisfied with, where you can actually witness connection.
Goddess Erica (13:03.276)
One of the things that I absolutely love about this site, not to be on a promotional platform or anything, but one of the things I love about this site is the way that they center women's pleasure, the way that they hold space for non-binary people, the way that they honor aging people and their connection and their position and the way that they're engaging with sex, not from a form of spectacle, but from a space of honoring and from a space of true, like,
appreciation and sometimes even curiosity because sometimes you don't know but it's such a beautiful counterpoint to when you go onto these mainstream porn sites and I won't name any of them but when you go on these mainstream porn sites and you look up something like black sex it's you're getting stuff that is not a positive representation always of
what that connection truly looks like. You're not getting, you know, the true story behind, you know, what led up to, you know, these amateur things that you may, you know, search on these sites. But when you go onto a site where they are staunchly against revenge porn, where they make sure that everyone in a video, when it's uploaded, has consented,
and they give the power to everyone in the video, including the person behind the camera, to remove that video at any point. That is not something that you see in mainstream porn. And if we were to create more spaces like that, if we were to create spaces where you could see queer sex through a lens of positivity, and there are absolutely sites like that as well. But if there were more spaces, that was more pervasive, that was more protected. That is where...
we need to be looking in order for pornography to transform from something that is so pearl clutching to something that is actually sought after.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:07.966)
Yeah. Well, and one place where I didn't think she felt as short was that she at least was discussing the ways that like you just mentioned with Blackporn where it's becomes this thing that is I don't even know the right word for it because perverse isn't the right word because that sounds like I'm saying that sex is bad. But the way it's framed is in this way that's really rooted in racism versus intimacy and care and love or whatever, or even sex. doesn't even have to be love, but that it's not just it's crowded in this
Goddess Erica (15:15.413)
no.
Goddess Erica (15:30.56)
is very
Becky Mollenkamp (15:36.874)
it's clearly racist. And she talks about several different groups of people or identities. And so I was appreciative that she brought those things into it. That was good. So I'll give her some credit there. But you know, and there are so much in what you talked about that I want to explore different avenues. But the first place I want to go, because I feel like it's still talking to what is probably the thing that most fundamentally is my trigger point around this or where I struggle, is how can we get to that place though and trust that it is healthy?
When for so many of us, through, for decades now, our ideas around porn, I mean, around sex have been so skewed because of things like porn. mean, porn, I mean, I was watching something, boys are getting exposed to porn really young in elementary school, which as a mother of a nine-year-old is troubling. Yes, yes. And the kinds of things they're seeing are not what we would want boys to be learning about what
Goddess Erica (16:25.016)
We are not on YouTube.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:36.166)
sex looks like should be, treating women or other boys. So if our own understandings around sex are based in these puritanical beliefs that we have in America just as the foundation of our kind of culture, and then with this porn that is so skewed and so sexist and racist and all of the things, how do we get to the place of trusting that even if we put the power in the hands of
Goddess Erica (16:36.576)
It's completely different, yeah.
Goddess Erica (16:57.646)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (17:03.73)
those with marginalized identities and say, you create the porn, how do you get to the place of trusting that that is healthy, right? That their understandings around sex are not also grounded in these things. Does that make sense?
Goddess Erica (17:13.422)
I think it absolutely does. And I think, yeah, I think how do we change? How do we know that the new influencers aren't influencing us poorly? And I think that what also needs to happen in tandem is that we need to have these transformations within ourselves, within ourselves, also in community of other people who are seeking these transformations to really become more honest with
our personal relationship with pleasure and not just how it's broken, but also what actually does feel good to us. How do we do the shadow work of looking into our own personal desires and unpacking what has been learned and what has been learned out of us? Because there's so many people who have these awakenings when they no longer have certain social impositions placed upon them where they
They're like, suddenly I like this thing that I had no idea that I like. It's very likely that you always liked it and you just didn't have room to express it. And so really being able to trust ourselves. And I think that that's also a really huge component, probably something that I wrote down in my notes as well, where I think that instead of completely outlawing pornography, what we really need to do is create a system where we believe victims when they say something.
that we are actually doing something when harm is implemented, that we're not just allowing people to go free, that we are allowing people to find healing and safety in a way that makes sense to them, as opposed to us telling them what is healing and what's right. Sometimes taking away
the ability to experience pleasure is not the thing that heals you. Being in isolation from other people or no longer being able to engage with an activity because you once experienced something or maybe multiple times experiencing something harmful, I think it's a very myopic way of healing and you're not healing holistically.
Goddess Erica (19:41.194)
you're only, you're bandaging the thing that you see is harmful and you're kind of just letting everything else just kind of do its thing around, right? I think that when we like are really, allow ourselves to be really vulnerable and ask and answer really hard questions for ourselves and whole space for other people to ask and answer hard questions.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:51.517)
Yeah.
Goddess Erica (20:06.082)
where we can sit in conversation with our girlfriends, with our siblings, with our cohorts and have conversations about our sexual experiences without it feeling like it's an invitation for them to share their opinions about what we're experiencing or to make it seem like we're imposing our ideas of sexuality onto them. We need to be just as comfortable talking about
our sexual pleasure and sexual dysfunction, the same way that we talk about breast health, the same way that we talk about getting dental work done or our hair done or whatever it is. Like whatever the thing is, whatever you're passionate about, like if you can talk about that thing and sex is the place where you're drawing a line, you're actually stopping yourself from being able to engage more consciously.
with a space that really needs all of us to be focused on it in a less like, don't wanna look, kind of way. Yeah, because.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:12.394)
Right. Well, and I don't advocate, my position is definitely not porn is inherently bad or that we should not have porn or any of that. Because I think that's how we got to this problem in a lot of ways. It is the fact that this country is this puritanical shame based, religious shame based, which is really difficult trauma and shame because it results in like an afterlife of burning in hell, right? Like
Goddess Erica (21:27.65)
Yes.
Goddess Erica (21:34.923)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:40.094)
So serious stuff that has gotten people to this place where it lives in the shadows. And then when things live in the shadows, all sorts of things happen, right? So I agree, like banning it's not the answer at all. And I do feel like that's, don't know if that's what she's necessarily advocating, but certainly I think, I mean, I think her roundabout way is trying to get to a place of porn that is respectful of women and is caring about the consent and all of that.
Goddess Erica (21:50.296)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:07.262)
this critique doesn't necessarily get at that. So it does almost read like, I just think we should get rid of this horrible thing. And I don't think that's the answer. I agree with you. My problem is so I just want to be clear about that because that's not where I stand. I think my issue is just, it feels so fundamentally broken that the path forward feels impossible. But then again, that's also how so many of these systems of oppression feel. And the answer is we have, Burton is no, I mean,
Goddess Erica (22:12.642)
Yeah. Yeah.
Goddess Erica (22:17.954)
you
Goddess Erica (22:23.694)
Thank you.
Goddess Erica (22:30.051)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:33.266)
Yes, in an ideal world, I'd love to just dismantle all of our systems in our country so that we could rebuild in a way that is good from the start, but we can't do that. So how do we change what exists? And so what you're talking about makes so much sense. It just feels huge and overwhelming. But imagine the difference. If porn was like the majority of porn was that, and then it's the stuff on the outsides that's this other stuff because
Goddess Erica (22:56.748)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:00.146)
I think most people would just go to what is in the mainstream of porn and only a small group of people are then seeking out the stuff that is unhealthy. And those are the folks that we need to try and find ways to do intervention with to help them get to a healthier place. And I love that you're talking about, cause it's not just about changing porn then it's about changing our relationship with sex and pleasure in this country fundamentally, which begins before you even get to the place of porn. Sex ed, how we as adults are managing these things for ourselves. So then we're
Goddess Erica (23:04.046)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Goddess Erica (23:20.174)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:29.306)
educating our children in way that allows them that freedom. So is that what you're... go ahead. No, go ahead.
Goddess Erica (23:31.566)
Yeah, and not only allows them, okay, I was gonna say, not only allows them that freedom, but also allows them to have a sense of discernment when they're engaging with content that can potentially be misleading. That allows them to ask questions and to be more curious about what's going on. So, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:46.418)
Look again.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:52.134)
Yeah, I wrote down critical thinking like media literacy, which we need to be teaching our children for so many things. And this is one of those ways, especially as we go into this AI age, where it's going to be really scary. It's already starting to happen inside of porn and going to get scarier where anyone can be suddenly the star of a porn. Were they there? Did they consent? Right. Teaching children how to understand how to identify consent, identify
Goddess Erica (24:10.872)
with them, visually.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:16.936)
true pleasure and not as she talks about this essay, women being forced to put on the smile when there's no actual pleasure there. So I do think media literacy is a big part of it, teaching children consent, teaching children also just about pleasure being okay, the way we shame children for pleasure and not just of the sexual variety, but that also as that becomes, comes along. So yeah.
Goddess Erica (24:22.346)
Thank you
Goddess Erica (24:37.35)
For sure. So there's a couple of things I want to kind of mention there. Not just with AI being able to deep fake faces onto sexualized bodies or bodies in sexual situations, but also the fact that AI runs these algorithms. They are serving up what these kids and what these young men
are consuming. And I've seen time and time again, just on something like Instagram, where your for you page or whatever it's called the explore page, they change the name all the time, right? But how that page is served up with things that, because the algorithm knows who you are, it knows your demographics, it knows how old you are, it knows
generally what your interests are. might know a little bit about your mind frame, about the certain situations that going on. Your phones are constantly listening to you, right? And so it's serving up to these young men and these men content that is so incredibly sexualized, that so others, the female body, that positions womanhood as something to be consumed.
and not to be appreciated, something to be taken from and not to be given to or poured into. And so we have to be really careful about the way that computer learning is programmed moving forward. So it's not even just about like the conversations that we're having with children, but it's also if we are in any position to have conversations about the way that things are being programmed from apps to
the way that we are serving up our own content when we have the power and position to do that. Understanding that the things that these young men and these, and even young girls are being served is not indicative always of their interests, but of a larger interest to kind of guide them in a direction that isn't useful or helpful.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:53.758)
Well, yeah, because there's all these implicit, all the implicit inherent biases that exist inside of our systems exist inside of AI. They haven't gone away. They're there and it's been shown like, they're inherently sexist, inherently racist and inherently capitalistic. And so it's using that same model of extraction of taking of consuming like you're talking about and bringing it to porn. So I think that is important. And that like YouTube to
Goddess Erica (27:02.894)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:19.322)
MAGA to whatever pipeline is very clear and it's happening and we have to be very careful as parents and I'm saying this because I'm full of terror about all of this with my own child that we have to watch and there's only so much that we can do around like putting up safeguards. So much of it is educating them to become good consumers.
Goddess Erica (27:21.774)
Thank you.
Goddess Erica (27:33.772)
It's also incredibly insidious. I've seen some, the beginnings of YouTube reels that my son has been served up where it's talking about, know, being confident and taking care of yourself and doing something. And then they'll just throw in something kind of turkey, go throw in something like real boys or, you know, men who haven't, you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:40.392)
Okay.
Goddess Erica (28:00.686)
or they'll mention someone who has transitioned and they'll dead name them. And it's just like, the children don't see that this is a problem. And then they what's that?
Becky Mollenkamp (28:10.334)
said their brains aren't fully developed. I said their brains aren't fully developed. We can't expect them to. Yeah.
Goddess Erica (28:15.31)
And so they don't know to look out for these things. And so they click on the next thing and they think they're getting this good information. But while they're getting this somewhat useful information, they're also getting this really insidious information that is kind of planting these seeds of, don't even know how I would describe it, like almost of hate towards women or towards femininity or women's bodies or even
behaviors that are perceived as feminine. And so it's not even. Yes, it's isolating and it's it it creates this. So yeah, there's there's so many different ways. But I also wanted to say that it does seem daunting that there are all of these different systems that need to be dismantled. But if we recognize that we are a planet full of people who are kind of waking up to the fact that like
Becky Mollenkamp (28:47.762)
Right, their own bodies and their own behaviors if they're perceived as feminine, yeah.
Goddess Erica (29:14.242)
we don't have to answer to the rules of how we're supposed to think and how we're supposed to show up in the world that we can actually create our own realities by believing what we know is true for ourselves. I feel like there's so much room for us as individuals to chip away at the different systems
in different ways. you know, some people are doing it through the lens of justice, right? Andrea Dworkin obviously was hoping to dismantle a harmful system through the lens of justice. Someone like me, I'm looking to dismantle harmful systems through the lens of pleasure. I think that you can't have justice without understanding what it looks like to be healed and whole on the other side. And that in
lose pleasure. You are submitting yourself to a cycle of patriarchal white supremacist thinking when you try to strip away the individuality from expression and experience. And so I think we just really have to be careful about
how we understand the dauntingness of everything. Because yes, it is daunting. Yes, we can't fix all of it individually. But on the whole, we have to trust that there are many of us chipping away and starting to uncover what is the beauty, the glimmer of hope underneath all of the...
kind of muddiness that patriarchy and colonization and harm against marginalized communities, like the environment that is created. There's definitely room to dig out and there's definitely pockets of hope and safety and joy and comfort that we can find.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:32.764)
Yeah, I want to move to pleasure in a minute because I think there's a lot for us talk about there. But since we were just talking about parenting and starting with children, yeah, I want to go there next just because I have now become an Anglophile. I have subscribed to British television. actually, I hope the government or whoever isn't listening, but I got a VPN and like I have convinced my TV and my computer that I live in London. So I have access to, can get access to all of this British programming because I so much prefer
Goddess Erica (31:40.888)
Of course, I love to be on it.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:02.45)
they're programming. And one of the things I've noticed is a very different relationship with sex. And I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm sure there are many things that are wrong. However, there are a couple of shows that I've been watching that have just really been changing my thoughts about what it might mean to continue to parent my child around these issues. There's a show called Virgin Island. These are sort of documentaries. They're not in the way of an American reality show. They're also not dry documentaries. It's like a reality show, but without all of the...
screaming and the like challenges. just following these young virgins. They're in their twenties, so they're not, you underage. And they go to this place where it's all of these amazing sex workers, some of them therapists, some of them who are like, what's it called? Like a surrogate sex partner. There's like all variety of folks. They're not all just what we typically think of sex workers, but folks who are in this industry of pleasure and sex and helping these virgins overcome some of the fear they have established around.
Goddess Erica (32:29.922)
Mm-hmm.
Goddess Erica (32:45.358)
you.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:56.976)
sex and intimacy and all of that. And it's really, it's not pleasure. It's not like for our titillation. It is like to learn and to see and watch for somebody who is in that place, that incel, right? Involuntarily celibate that, you know, leads to this like sort of MAGA approach of life. For them to see themselves reflected in this way that's soft and caring and gentle and showing them what it looks like in this journey and what's possible and what they need to unlearn. It's beautiful.
There's another show called Naked Education, which is from a show that was called Naked Attraction, is also, that one's a little more of just like, it's a dating show that's naked. It's very interesting. But the Naked Education, this is taking like kids that are in junior and middle, junior high and high school, and they show them, there's different things they're teaching about, but they actually show their naked bodies, not in a sexual way. It's just adults that come in, remove their clothes, and they will talk about various parts of their body, like.
Goddess Erica (33:35.052)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:53.81)
This is what a circumcised penis looks like. This is what an uncircumcised penis looks like. Look at their body here. Look how women have hair on their face. Look at how women may not choose to shave their underarms. Look at like, like some men have hairy behinds. They're showing them all of these things. And the kids are sort of having conversations about what they thought, the misbeliefs or the things they've been told, and then sort of normalizing what the real human body looks like. Now they're not doing as much around sex, but still just that piece I'm like.
Goddess Erica (34:08.718)
Thank
Becky Mollenkamp (34:22.034)
because my son was getting to that age where I'm like, I don't want him to see porn as his first experience with looking at a woman's breasts or whatever it might be. So this being available is something that I'm very excited about. anyway, I just think it's interesting how other places do things differently. And I'm curious what you think as somebody who works along a lot of these issues, if that feels like kind of the approach that we wish we could bring here.
Goddess Erica (34:44.68)
I actually think that's a beautiful approach. And I would love to see something like that implemented here. I mean, it definitely seems like a long stretch considering that we're going from purity rings to showing naked adult bodies with like, don't get me started on how are the ways that we talk about sex and children's exposure to it.
and how we, what is the word I'm looking for? From a legal perspective, like the idea of child porn and how children can be prosecuted for child porn. We can talk about that.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:23.709)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:29.842)
or how I would worry that I could be prosecuted for showing my child those naked bodies.
Goddess Erica (35:33.92)
Right, right. That part for showing your child, for your child taking pictures of themselves for having, you know, so like there are, there's so much like, I think that that approach of having a matter of fact, this is not sexual. This is just, you know, just like when you go to college and you have nude models come for for new, like it's not sex. It's you're not sexualizing the person.
you when you go to college for anatomy and you're looking at cadavers and you're you know dealing with body parts like being able to take a a a educational approach to the facts um being able to allow children to um ask those questions with curiosity and not have those questions dismissed or ignored or or
given half answers when you are normalizing bodies and body types. Like that's also helping to dismantle diet culture. That's helping to dismantle fat shaming and body shaming when it comes to hair on body and when it comes to the way that breasts and hips and body parts are different size.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:57.638)
racist beliefs about bodies as well, yeah.
Goddess Erica (37:01.27)
It helps to dismantle fears around labia is looking funny. It helps to dismantle fears about like what a vagina or a vulva is supposed to smell like. It helps you to ask more pertinent questions about sexual health. And so I think that that would be amazing. would love, you we talk about like, you know, the privatizing of things like
Where are the private industries that are trying to navigate this in the United States?
Becky Mollenkamp (37:34.566)
I don't think they exist, do they? mean, well, there are those they do, but they're in these very small, like you mentioned, make love, not porn. There's another I know a feminist, it's an audio based because it's specifically for women who often are more stimulated through storytelling than necessarily through visuals. And it's called Dipsy. And it's a you know, and there's a lot of podcasts out there also that are doing similar kind of work, although they have some limitations, I think, on what they can necessarily put out without.
Goddess Erica (37:39.948)
with.
Goddess Erica (37:45.582)
you
Thank you.
Goddess Erica (37:54.03)
And it's not.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:01.904)
Apple like throttling their content and stuff. there are things out there doing it, but they're certainly not in the form of like a Netflix or somebody with, you Amazon, the people who have the real power to make significant change.
Goddess Erica (38:04.375)
Right. Yeah.
Goddess Erica (38:13.068)
No, we need to, I think a better division is to have a division between sexual things that are served up through an educational lens and to police that it is actually educational and then sex that is served up through a lens of pleasure. And like, I would love to see the internet divided in that way. Like, why don't we just have a very specific
Ending. don't know what it's called. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:44.072)
like a rating like they do with NC 17 or whatever, but one that actually talks about that. And that almost gets to what she's talking about here in a way where she's, feel like she's wanting this classification of a type of porn to be very clear, right? Like this may involve coercion, this may involve trafficking or underage or people lack of consent or whatever. Cause so much of what she talks about here really feels like it's based in lack of consent, right? That's the stuff that seems to be the most.
Goddess Erica (38:52.622)
Thank
Becky Mollenkamp (39:11.198)
And I agree because without consent, what is it? Right? We have to be really honest about that where it, and even if we can't be sure the perceived lack of consent or the portrayed lack of consent, those are things that do, I feel like that is a place where I often stand that would say, I think there needs to be something that happens here. And in feminist circles, that can be challenging because like she was talking about the ACLU is there.
defending the pornographers and I understand it fundamentally, like I get freedom of speech and I get all of that. And at what expense? it gets challenging to have these conversations with other feminists and progressives.
Goddess Erica (39:37.42)
Yeah.
Goddess Erica (39:47.65)
Yeah, and I honestly think that, and I'm glad you brought up the ACLU because I think that she also, she conflates some things. I did a quick Google search of the fund that she was referencing, which is the Hugh Hefner fund for, yeah, the ACLU. And I,
Becky Mollenkamp (40:10.398)
Yeah, this was in 88, so it could also be, but different.
Goddess Erica (40:17.454)
I was kind of a little bit weirded out by the hate on ACLU because I understand a position of recognizing that there is nuance and that there is freedom of speech in these pornographical spaces, that there is an opportunity for education when it's done the right way. And to conflate it with something like
the way that the ACLU completely, I forget what the words were that she used, but she was like, know, they denounced the Klan, right? Right, they're not having parties with the Klan, right? But there's no part of racism that can be sliced into nuance.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:56.318)
Right, but they're at parties with pornographers.
Goddess Erica (41:09.144)
There is, you know, and we try to do it all the time, right? just listen to them. They're allowed their opinions. No, no, there is no room for racism. There is no room for non-consent. And that is across the board for everything. And I think that if that is the one lesson that we learn about everything, because you don't, the problem when she starts to talk about harm and...
Abusive things happening. That's when it starts to bleed into the gray areas of kink where people can actually consent and if you don't know that they are consenting then it looks like harm That is where someone can be smiling through something that doesn't look like it's fun And they actually are enjoying themselves and it's up to that individual person It is not up to us to to decide for them What is harmful is up to us to believe them when they say it's harmful
But it is not up to us to decide that this thing is harmful for them and to try to rush in like some white saviors to rescue them from whatever it is that they are experiencing because it hurts our eyes and brains. We really need to recognize that consent is king. when we understand what that is, when we understand that people, that there are certain circumstances that people cannot give consent.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:23.792)
And we.
Goddess Erica (42:31.406)
And that is under duress, whether that is financial or situational, whether it is under intoxication, whether that they are being drugged or put into power structures. And also with age, children cannot consent. Children cannot consent. And so people under the age of 18 and honestly, let's just call it 21, cannot consent.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:45.31)
power structures.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:59.326)
Yeah, let's talk a little more about brain development, right? But yeah, but in this country, you've decided 18 and okay, but I, that's where I also, there's a whole other discussion, but it's why I struggle sometimes when I see these 60 year old rich men dating 18, 19 year olds, I'm like, okay, but anyway, that's another discussion. There's a power to both. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Goddess Erica (43:02.04)
brain development, honestly.
Goddess Erica (43:14.434)
There's power differential, very large differential that cannot be remediated. I mean, honestly, like spitballing, I would love to see spaces where kids, teenagers, because they are engaging with sex whether we want them to or not, whether we are informing them or not, whether we are telling them to or...
Becky Mollenkamp (43:38.27)
was having sex before I left high school and I know most people that I knew were. mean, people waiting to hot college at this point is getting more rare.
Goddess Erica (43:42.606)
And the information we were getting was so bad. It was so, so bad. And so imagine if we actually created a space where kids could explore, where they were grounded in an education before they are allowed to enter the space and it is run and managed by people under 21. imagine we are allowed
Becky Mollenkamp (44:07.208)
Yeah. It was so challenging to even imagine that though, goddess Erica, like it is so against anything we've ever, and because of the way we have demonized sex and sexuality for anyone under 18, even though we know what's happening, know, like we've heard this whole, the idea of child porn, which yes, we have to protect children and trying to figure out what does that look like with the consent issues as we're saying, you can't consent when you're a child and yet we know.
They're having sex and they are consenting. yeah, it's so like, love the the dreaming of it, like the thinking about what it could be. But it's also it stretches, I think the boundaries of my imagination, right? Yeah.
Goddess Erica (44:36.43)
Mm-hmm.
Goddess Erica (44:44.118)
It's good. It is definitely one of those things where you're imagining a world that doesn't exist right now. And it's, it's scary. It's like looking into a dark room and you don't know what's going to happen, but you kind of have to trust people as individuals as, and we have to trust our kids. We have to trust that the things that we're pouring into them and that we're educating them about that they're making good decisions that they are becoming good stewards of the community that they're building for themselves. And we need to keep ourselves out of that shit like that.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:51.366)
Right.
Goddess Erica (45:11.666)
is is where we need to be when it comes to protecting children from harm.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:14.92)
Other than providing them with resources that are actually based in and grounded in consent that are also perhaps in a way, well, I don't know, just that are more feminist, right? As we think about like, what does that look like? And giving them whether it's porn or education or a combination, all of those things, that is where we have responsibility and we're failing big time right now.
Goddess Erica (45:24.43)
Good.
We're gonna stop.
Goddess Erica (45:33.954)
Yeah, yeah. And not the plug again, but Make Love Not Porn is actually trying an initiative in that vein right now. It's called Make Love Not Porn dot ed or not edu. I think it's Make Love Not Porn University. And it is a space where they are actively finding experts and and child psychologists and all kinds of people to to educate on sexuality.
and pleasure and in a way that is friend like age appropriate for a different.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:07.25)
Yeah. Well, if they haven't seen naked education in the UK, you should suggest it because it's really, I'm very excited about what that, that tool as a resource for my child as he gets a little older. the same with this, I'll definitely be looking into that. I want to make sure we move into pleasure and to adults, but these things are really related because our ability as adults to understand our own pleasure.
Goddess Erica (46:21.528)
Sure, sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:29.554)
to give space and freedom to our pleasure, to remove shame from pleasure. All of that is so influenced by our earliest experiences with our bodies and with sex and often with trauma around that. Speaking of me losing my virginity young, that first person was somebody who was a little older than me, consumed porn because everyone consumes porn. And there was a piece in this that really triggered me a bit talking about
Goddess Erica (46:50.926)
and everyone.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:58.962)
like throat rape, which I had never heard that term, but it was certainly something I experienced inside of that relationship too and has forever scarred and altered my relationship with sex and with pleasure and all of that. So you know all that. I'm curious how you work with people when so much of our stuff is grounded in that, how do we ever sort of move past that? Because I know that influences my feelings now around porn. I realize that. That's why I have this complicated experience of like,
Goddess Erica (47:00.994)
Thank
Becky Mollenkamp (47:28.934)
wanting to show up very liberated, very feminist and saying, yeah, I do believe in free speech. I believe in pleasure. I believe in sex. I believe in porn. And it's also fundamentally fucked up. How do we get past it? Right. And that's why I wonder, like, I think even for as an individual level, it's also fundamentally fucked up because all of our early experiences are with people who were, you know, raised in for ourselves that were, you know, brought up in this and the more marginalized identities we have, the more fucked up a lot of our relationships are around pleasure. How do you even start?
Goddess Erica (47:48.91)
No.
Goddess Erica (47:58.57)
I think that it comes back down to education again and not like we can't go back and reeducate ourselves, but we reeducate ourselves in the present moment because an unlearn and one of the things that I know that I remember growing up and and now as an as a as as an older adult looking back and being like, wow, is all of the like I said, misinformation.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:04.701)
Right.
and unlearn.
Goddess Erica (48:28.938)
all of the urban legends, all of these jokes, things like donkey punches and dirty Sanchez and... happening that people are actually trying, like kids are actually trying. Like nobody in their right mind who actually knows like what's real is doing these things. But because it's funny and it's ha ha, then, you know, people end up getting actually harmed and throat raped and things happen with a lack of consent because
Becky Mollenkamp (48:35.87)
the Urban Dictionary, yeah!
Goddess Erica (48:58.754)
they aren't taught about consent. So imagine if we are actually invited into spaces where we can name and identify the things that we feel uncomfortable with, where we can find, we don't even necessarily need to track back to where the feelings came from, as long as we are relearning whether or not we, relearning the way that we engage with that sensation or that feeling.
so if, if rote stuff is something that like totally triggers you, like perhaps understanding it was wrong, what the way things were done to you, like, obviously you've gotten there, right. But that like, it came from a place of misinformation and that like, there is an opportunity for like care and gentleness to be like that people can actually experience, you know, this, this activity.
without being harmed if consent is applied, if informed consent is applied. Like imagine knowing that you could maybe numb your throat if you wanna try it out. Imagine knowing that you could work your way up to it. Nobody's sitting on giant, bad dragon toys first time out unless someone is like, hey, this is totally fine. That's gonna be traumatizing. I probably wouldn't wanna look at another tentacle. You know what I mean?
You know, so I think that it's it's it begins with a personal healing where we are allowed to be in spaces where we find ourselves in spaces where our our harm and our hurt is acknowledged, affirmed, and we are allowed to either re engage our our the way that we work with that thing.
Or we decide that it's just completely not for us. could say the same thing, honestly, like I hope I can say this on your podcast. I can say the same thing about anal. You know, like I had a very bad experience with the early relationship and I was certainly very open to experimentation and this one person kind of into that for me. And so it had to, I had to go through a process of recognizing I didn't do anything wrong.
Goddess Erica (51:20.878)
This was someone being harmful and that there are people who engage in this, who enjoy it. And I even went through a period where I even tried to re-engage with it myself with a much more caring and understanding partner. know, someone who actually was going to trust my feelings and my no, right? And I decided still that it wasn't for me, but it could have gone in the complete opposite direction. I couldn't be like, I absolutely love
this. And so I think we owe it to ourselves to like acknowledge the things that hurt us and recognize that the source of harm isn't the pornography, it is the system. It is, you know, that the source of harm, when it's something that we are maybe curious about reengaging with, isn't the thing that happened, but maybe the person that was doing it with us, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp (52:18.398)
Well, I was just going to say that it's the systems that are harming us. And so we need to really have that awareness of that in order to even begin to move to another step of healing. One of the things that was really helpful for me is reading Audrey Lord's uses of the erotic, which I'm sure you also know, and just exploring erotic versus pornographic. The heart of that is how do we feel those differences? I don't, and she, and.
Goddess Erica (52:22.978)
Okay.
Goddess Erica (52:34.804)
I'm gonna love that one.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:46.106)
Audrey Lawrence, I'm just saying like explicitly sexually, but just in the ways that we experience pleasure and or non pleasure and understanding sort of that difference and that dynamic. And for so many of us, our experience is more pornographic than pleasurable or erotic because of the way the systems around us and the way we are all sort of brought up into the system with all the shame and the hidden and the, know, all of that.
Goddess Erica (53:08.782)
on that.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:11.644)
And so starting to even begin to like explore that for yourself can be so challenging. And so many of us are so disconnected from our bodies because our bodies are such a source of pain and trauma and shame. It can be really hard to begin to get connected. And I'm curious about the naked meditation that you just did. And if that is for you a part of that, is part of it just getting folks, most especially women and women identified folks or folks who have marginalized identities, getting them to a place of even just being able to be.
Goddess Erica (53:22.35)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (53:39.858)
naked with themselves and be comfortable in their own skin? Is that part of that journey?
Goddess Erica (53:45.118)
It is certainly a part of it, but the hugest part of it because it actually is a semi-nude meditation. And it doesn't mean that people don't get completely nude. It means that as soon as you enter that space, you have agency over your body. You have agency over how you show up and how you present. You feeling hot? Take off your shirt. You feeling cold? Put it back on. You feeling kind of saucy? Take off everything. like you feeling yourself? Feel free to like, to really get into that meditation.
it's not for other people's case. It's not for, it's not for my satisfaction, whether or not you, you get completely nude or not. It's not for the person next to you. It's not for the people outside. one of the things that I do during the meditation is I, I ground us in the moment. I say, we leave everything behind. We leave everything that we have to think about later for later. And we, we, we lock ourselves into this moment. And in this moment, what do you want? What do you need? What are you looking for?
What are you open to being surprised by? And just allow yourself to like flow through that. And so there's not many spaces where you are given that opportunity even in, and this is not to like to say anything bad about anybody else's practices, but in a lot of spaces you've got like meditation work, you keep your clothes on because that's respectful, right? You don't, you you take off your thing, you got your sports bra on cause you get a little bit hot, but you know, like don't get too crazy.
And then there's places where it's like everybody gets naked, you know You get to choose you get to lose and and and practicing that you take that outside and then you get to choose No, I don't actually want to be touched that way. No, I actually don't want to be taught you that way No, I don't actually want to do that right now, you know No, I don't actually feel comfortable with taking my shirt off in this situation or you know Imagine how that translates to to people in work spaces
Becky Mollenkamp (55:17.778)
school.
Goddess Erica (55:39.406)
You know, we are hearing, or at least I'm starting to hear about all these famous actresses from, that I enjoyed and loved growing up in my youth who, you know, would have these topless scenes. The movies of the 80s and 90s were so gratuitous with the toplessness and the female nudity. And hearing how they were pressured. Where's the outrage in that? You know, and I know there's outrage, but where is that being called porn? You know?
Becky Mollenkamp (55:39.443)
Mm-hmm.
Goddess Erica (56:09.07)
It's just.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:09.202)
Right? Well, just figure out what is porn, right? I mean, I know the Supreme Court justice, I can't remember who at this point famously said, I know it when I see it. And that is the part, like we still don't even have a consensus around what porn is. What do we call a pornographic? Does it remain only when there's penetration, only when there's nudity? If it's nudity, then what kind of nudity? But I think what we know the answer to really mean in most cases is when it centers the male gaze for their gratification, right? And I know you mentioned earlier,
Goddess Erica (56:17.166)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:38.77)
the very beginning of this talking about rethinking what porn could look like. And when we center it from a woman's, from the female gaze, from the female's pleasure, how it would change things. And just this idea of toplessness, like the double standard, free the nipple, right? Women can't be topless, men can, and why? It is because everything is, all of our policies, all of our systems, these are laws that are rooted in the male gaze. So.
Goddess Erica (56:52.984)
Yeah.
Goddess Erica (57:00.322)
There was there was a there's two things that I want to bring up from To bring these up, okay So the first one on page three it said black skin is presented as if it is a female genital And so I just want you to recognize that intersection double vagina over here, right? You know, like I am I am less than a human less than a human, you know and then
Becky Mollenkamp (57:07.518)
Okay, good, because we're not coming to the end. So I want to make sure I get anything else you wanted to talk about.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:23.752)
Bye!
Goddess Erica (57:29.942)
the on page 10, she says women is a dirty word. And it actually made me think about when I first got on social media for my business and for my work, and I'm talking about sex and I'm talking about things and there are hashtags that are suppressed. And I did a quick search and I don't know if they actually tell you which hashtags are suppressed, but you can kind of tell on Instagram.
You cannot search the word black women. You cannot search the word women's pleasure. You can search black girls. You can search women's pain and you can find pleasure activism. But when you type in the whole word, it produces no results. It's only you type in part of the word and then it kind of gives it as a suggestion. So I don't know if it's like a workaround or if that's partially suppressed, but there is so much suppression on.
our bodies and our experiences and our perspectives and our pleasure. And Free the Nipple is a really great example of that. There was a huge push maybe about a decade ago to Free the Nipple on social media and it's still not perfect. And also it has become this space where the pornographers, the harmful people are actually starting to co-opt those spaces.
So while it's okay to show breastfeeding on Instagram now, a lot of the truly focused on sexual education and appreciation of motherhood and women's bodies, those pages are still policed heavily and suppressed where you can also be served up. I've seen through young men's and men's feeds where they're not searching for this stuff. You'll get a breastfeeding photo where it's clearly of a woman who
This is not her account. She probably did not consent to have this video taken. And she's also being presented to the camera in a way where it is the sexuality of her breast and not the engagement between her and her child. so, is an object and it is the act of breastfeeding that has now been tainted, is the right word, but like...
Becky Mollenkamp (59:43.666)
She's no longer a human. She is now an object, right?
Goddess Erica (59:57.656)
co-opted into something that it isn't. And so we just, really have to like to recognize that there are all of these different ways that the death by paper cuts happens when it comes to suppressing what is true and real. And
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:19.762)
Well, I can tell you with certainty this episode will not be seen and heard by as many people as other episodes because trying to talk about these issues, I've done similar sorts of conversations and they do get throttled. They get hidden and it is so disappointing. And I've also noticed when I have podcasts with black women, those episodes don't get the viewership and listenership. I don't blame the viewers and listeners. I don't think it can be found unless it's black women talking about money because that fits into capitalism, which is interesting.
Goddess Erica (01:00:29.07)
You know?
Goddess Erica (01:00:33.378)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:49.51)
Those particular kinds of episodes do really well. Black women talking about almost anything else around liberation or anything, the numbers go way down, which is so upsetting. And that is a part of all of this problem. Speaking of the Free the Nipple, I just want to mention too that in Scotland, I believe it was just recently because they've passed some anti-trans legislation, trans women showed up at like a state Capitol or something, all topless to say, okay, if you're gonna call us men, then you get to look at our nipples now.
Goddess Erica (01:00:49.752)
Right, interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:15.486)
And I loved it. was like, that is the kind of protest I think we need to see more of. It was awesome. Because right, let's call out these double standards. Because again, that's where everything gets murky. Okay, we could talk about this stuff forever, goddess Erica. I know we could. Because it's really interesting. And I feel better than I did going in. Because going in, I was like, okay, think I'm going to come across. I don't want to come across as the prude or anything, because it's definitely not it. It's just that in a way, I do agree with this author that there are some fundamental problems within pornography.
Goddess Erica (01:01:19.822)
I like that.
Goddess Erica (01:01:24.044)
Yeah.
Goddess Erica (01:01:32.726)
I feel like I'm doing my job.
Goddess Erica (01:01:43.406)
Sure, I agree with her.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:44.828)
And I hear you say you agree with that. And I think maybe it's just that I'm like, coming the softening to how maybe we deal with it is where you're helping me get to. So thank you.
Goddess Erica (01:01:56.63)
Well, you're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to share this conversation with you. This is such an important topic and it is something that needs to be discussed in more spaces, not just the sexual spaces, because it goes beyond just sexuality. Yes, it is sex, but it infiltrates itself into all of our work.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:57.982)
Yeah.
Goddess Erica (01:02:21.016)
Think about how many women in corporate who are in positions of power have been accused of sleeping their way to the top. Why is that? Why can't we have conversations around how this entire system is tied into all of that as well?
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02:35.548)
are still in the year of our Lord 2025 being forced to wear hosiery because their bodies are so policed that what they wear is still, you know, they can't grow up on the state. They can't go, we have politicians who can't vote because they need to care for a newborn or they can't show up with a baby that needs a breastfeed. Like, yeah, these things and all of it is so related, you're right. And there's nobody better I could have talked to about it. So thank you for agreeing to do this and for your time today. I super appreciate you.
Goddess Erica (01:02:43.758)
Right.
Goddess Erica (01:02:59.374)
Thank you so much. I appreciate you as well, Becky.