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Host Scott Lollar is a 35-year veteran of the painting industry and founder of Consulting4Contractors. The 'Success Beyond The Brush' Podcast serves as a touchpoint to painting contractors who have hustled, sacrificed, and worked hard to get their business to where it is today. Now, you need the guidance, expertise, experience, and team to make it into the multi-million-dollar company of your dreams. You'll hear stories and interviews from "Brothers of the Brush" and "Sisters of the Sprayer" who have been where you are and are charting a new course for their company's success. Listen in and go beyond $1,000,000!
SBTB Ep. 23 | Can Painting Contractors Actually Make Money Working With General Contractors?
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[00:00:00]
Taste of Coaching Offer
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Hey, before we get started with this episode, we actually wanted to let you know about something that Consulting4Contractors is really excited to be offering. If you've ever wondered what it would actually be like to get coaching from C4C, there's a way to experience it without jumping all the way in.
They're offering something called a Taste of Coaching. This is where you can get real exposure to how they think, how they diagnose problems, and how they help contractors just like you grow their businesses. It's not a course. This is actual coaching. We're gonna tell you more about this later in the episode, but you can check it out anytime using the link in the show notes or the video description
Hard Lessons on Scope
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Rick: You learn with a lot of bumps and bruises. I can remember a builder meeting me in the parking lot where our shop was and screaming at me, telling me that I had to pay a commercial caulker 11 grand to caulk the exterior windows on a new house that we bid, and we got the job for him. And that [00:01:00] was an education that cost me $11,000.
Rick: I'll never forget that.
Rick: I guess I didn't know that it was under my scope of work in the drawings. So, you know, it's constantly learning, and it has been for over 30 years, and it's just like the ones... Y- you learn really quickly the ones that you want to work with and the ones you don't.
Rick: How about that?
Welcome to Success Beyond The Brush
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Welcome back to Success Beyond the Brush. Working with general contractors can be one of the most frustrating parts of running a paint business. Slow payments, compressed schedules, scope creep, messy job sites. A lot of contractors have been burned and really decided it's just not worth it. But is that always true?
In this episode, Scott Lollar talks with C4C coach and HJ Holtz & Son owner Rick Holtz about how painting contractors can build profitable relationships with the right general contractors, protecting their scope, managing their expectations, and [00:02:00] avoid financing someone else's project. Let's jump into this insightful conversation between Rick and Scott
Scott: Welcome back to another episode of Success Beyond the Brush. My name is Scott Lollar, founder of C4C, and we're here with C4C coach and owner of Holtz & Son, Rick Holtz. Welcome, Rick.
Rick: Thank you, Scott. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.
Scott: Yeah, we have a great conversation. I want to talk today a little bit about general contractors. People, including myself at times, sort of label general contractors as evil people. Don't work with them.
Scott: They are out to ruin your business. They'll slow pay you. They'll scope creep you, everything under the sun. And yet I know that that's not actually a true statement and it's really a biased statement. I know that you do a significant amount of your work with general contractors. Is that correct?
Rick: Yeah, we sure do. We sure
Rick: do. Yeah, I mean, my dad was the same way. When I got into this business with my dad and I said, "You know, for us to grow, I'd really like to [00:03:00] approach some general contractors." And he was like, "Okay." He was like, "You know, you can do that, but they're going to be slow to pay. You're not going to make any money.
Rick: They're super demanding. They're going to ruin your work." And I was like, "Oh my gosh."
Scott: Yeah. Other than that, it sounds like a great idea.
Rick: Yeah, so other than, you know, rather than make me run it kind of challenged me, you know. I was at that mindset where it was like, " I'm going to prove that we can do this differently." So that's how it started.
Scott: Yeah. Not to mention the story is their schedules are always a disaster. They can't
Scott: predict anything, and they're always going to make you rush. I always say if I could do business over, I'd be a concrete guy because you're the first one in, so they're on time and on budget. By the time they get to painters, they're over budget and they're behind schedule, so they think somehow that's our problem.
Rick: I always say I want to be a floor contractor and do the hardwood floors because nobody else can be in the house when you're doing the floors, right? But when you're painting and you have a circular [00:04:00] saw beside you and a plumber's coming in and out of the bathroom and an electrician is trying to work on the lights in the ceiling, you sh- should be able to, you know, knock it out of the park and give them a beautiful paint job.
Scott: Yeah.
Can GCs Be Profitable
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Scott: So the first question, which we've already kind of answered, is: Can you build a profitable segment of your business with general contractors? And I think the answer is yes, you can. Just for our conversation, Rick, would you consider remodelers a general contractor, or is there a differentiation between maybe a home builder?
Scott: Today, we're going to focus our conversation, by the way, on residential.
Scott: We'll-- Another podcast, I'll talk more on the commercial side. But for today, residential, is there a difference between a home builder and a remodeler in your world?
Rick: No, not really. I mean, they're all contractors that we're working for that are managing multiple trades in a space, and we're one of the trades, so... And it's usually in a home. It could be a new home, it could be an addition, it could be a bathroom, it could be, you know, the whole inside of an existing house.
Rick: So I [00:05:00] mean, no, I don't really see a difference in it, honestly.
Scott: Yeah. So what is the most important aspect in your mind of the relationship between you as a subtrade and a general contractor?
Rick: Well, I think the most important is trust. You know, you can trust that, that they're going to understand that you have to look after your best interest, and that you're also going to make them look as good as possible, right? I mean, if they set you up for fr- for failure, then you can't make them look good.
Rick: And I think, you know, you have to have some of these honest conversations with these folks because y- you don't want the relationship to turn adversarial, because then nobody wins.
Scott: That's a great comment. All right.
Finding the Right GCs
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Scott: Let's start with how do you find them? How do you develop relationships and how do you search-- how do you set out to find some GCs to work with?
Rick: Well, for us, you know, my [00:06:00] dad did a lot of resident-- He did all residential repaint. So we worked in a lot of affluent neighborhoods, and I would see contractors adding onto these homes where we were working or remodeling them, and so you'd see their signs. You'd start to see them anywhere, and I would just approach them.
Rick: I would always say, "Hey, who's painting for you? I'd love to, I'd love to give you a price. I'd love to see if we could work together." Because for me, it wasn't that I wanted to necessarily... My goal wasn't necessarily to build a business, a seg- segment of business with general contractors. It was to saturate the geographical area, and I saw that they were doing something that needed painting, and I was like, "If I'm already in this neighborhood and I want to be in this neighborhood, I've got to work with these guys too, because I don't want them bringing another painter in this neighborhood."
Rick: So that's how it kind of started for me, and then, you know, most of them would have signs. I'd make calls. I'd do, you know, a lot of that sort of stuff. Now, by the time I'd see a sign, it was too late [00:07:00] normally because they've already got a painter selected for the job, got a budget and all that. But you start seeing the same names in these areas where you're working and um, you just knock on their door, and you keep calling and you keep bidding and, you know, it's not an immediate kind of thing.
Rick: It's really planting seeds and, keep watering it and hoping it gets some sunshine, and eventually it'll pay off.
Territory and Year Round Work
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Scott: So in fact, in a weird way, you were trying to protect your territory. You didn't want to see another painter in your marketplace, so to speak. That was one of your thoughts.
Rick: Yeah, because I mean, it, in residential repainting, you know, there's a segment of maintenance painting that's reoccurs over and over again. And, you know, I wanted these homeowners, when they thought about painting, to always think of Holtz. And it didn't matter whether a builder was working at their house or somebody was just renovating their powder room.
Rick: You know, I wanted us to be the company in there working for that homeowner. So yeah, I wanted [00:08:00] to saturate a geographical area for sure. But I also was thinking about having work to do when homeowners didn't want us in their home around the holidays during the winter. You know, I saw that as another opportunity to keep our employees working year-round.
Scott: So it was a segment of the market that wasn't necessarily sensitive to things like the holidays. Interior work, of course, wasn't sensitive to weather. So it was a way to sort of even out your peaks and valleys of their year.
Rick: Absolutely. Yeah, always trying to figure out a way to keep the company going 12 months out of the year, because the bills come 12 months out of the year, you know? And I don't like to lay people off. I want to keep people working year-round so that I can keep good people year in and year out. And you just...
Rick: Anything you can do, you know. Commercial work would be another one. But I saw [00:09:00] this as sort of another segment of business, like I said to keep the guys working, for sure.
Scott: Yeah.
Bumps Bruises and Red Flags
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Scott: So as you started to develop some of these relationships, did you start getting a little education on the ones that maybe weren't so great? Or how did you learn how to manage the relationships early on?
Rick: You learn with a lot of bumps and bruises. I can remember a builder meeting me in the parking lot where our shop was and screaming at me, telling me that I had to pay a commercial caulker 11 grand to caulk the exterior windows on a new house that we bid, and we got the job for him. And that was an education that cost me $11,000.
Rick: I'll never forget that.
Scott: Mm-hmm.
Rick: I guess I didn't know that it was under my scope of work in the drawings. So, you know, it's constantly learning, and it has been for over 30 years, and it's just like the ones... Y- you learn really quickly the ones that you want to [00:10:00] work with and the ones you don't.
Rick: How about that?
Scott: Sure. So today, or some, you know, in-- over the last thirty years, have you had a plan to consistently search out new general contractors that you would add to your uh, portfolio?
Rick: Yes and no. I find out about new ones through homeowners and through designers that we work for. And so I have learned of some new ones. You know, I have an, a contractor this year that we're going to do one project with, and they just approved another one last, last week that we've never worked with before.
Rick: So that'll be an interesting... You know, it's always interesting the first time because you don't know, are they going to give you time to do a good job? Are they going to rush you? Are they going to compress the schedule but tell you that you, you know, y- that move-in date's still the move-in date and you don't have any more time?
Rick: You know, those are some of the drawbacks of being the painting [00:11:00] contractor, I think. So we'll, w- you know, we'll see how it goes. And you can't be afraid to say, "I'm not interested in working with you anymore."
Scott: Sure.
Rick: you can't.
Scott: Yeah.
Vetting New Contractors
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Scott: So is there a way that you have that you would vet a new relationship? How do you determine that you're going to even give them a bid or want to work with them? Is there anything that you do in advance, or is it just like, "Ah we'll do it once and maybe not a
Rick: I want to see some consistency. I want to see that they've been on some projects. I want a designer to tell me that they've worked with them before and they've done a good job. I also want to see if... I have a, I have a good friend-- Well, I mean, we're, we're good, like, work friends who does hardwood floor refinishing, and I would ask him, " Hey, have you worked for this person before?"
Rick: I'll ask some subcontractors, maybe an electrical contractor that I know, because I know several of them. I'll ask them about these people. How are they? How are they to work with? How are they to, to pay? Do they pay you promptly or do they not? Because at the end of the day, [00:12:00] that's, that's the hard part.
Rick: You know, a lot of these jobs you're putting a lot of resources in and you could-- you don't want to have to wait 60 days to get those resources back, you know, because you're going to feel it eventually. It's going to catch up with you. So contractors that treat you well, pay you pretty promptly within f- you know, 14 days that's awesome.
Rick: If you can find people like that, go for it.
Scott: We'll talk about money a little bit later, which is a good comment. So as you're vetting this new contractor, talking to other trades that you know, talking to designers, what are some things that you're looking for? You know, you already said one, which is terms or, you know, how quickly they get paid.
Scott: What are some other things you're looking for? What are some non-negotiables, and what is the gray area that sometimes we have to deal with some not perfect circumstances if we want to work in this area?
Jobsite Checks and Communication
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Rick: Communication. Does this builder communicate well? Are they going to tell you ahead of time when they anticipate something being [00:13:00] ready, and is it going to be ready? Or are they calling you the day before saying, "Hey, you've got three days to get this prim- the drywall primed in this house," and you didn't even know until three days before.
Rick: You know, and you can't mobilize that fast. And so, you know, if they're giving you windows of opportunity and they're telling you at the last minute, those are not good. So I want to find that out. I'm going to drive by the job site myself a lot of times, and I'm going to look at the cleanliness of it.
Rick: Does it look organized? Are there people on site? Does the site guy know what's going on? You know, all those sorts of things I think are really important and t- and say a lot about a contractor. Do they take pride in what they do? If the job site's disorganized and it's a wreck and you're already seeing trades stacked on top of each other and, you know, there just doesn't seem to be a lot of respect for the job site, then probably not.
Rick: You know, I worked for a builder two years ago on a really large project, very high-end builder, and you go up to [00:14:00] the front door where every-- all the tradesmen are going in and there's a list of rules in English and Spanish, what's expected of you when you're working on that job site. And I thought that was awesome.
Rick: You know, that's somebody that cares. That's somebody that's thinking about everyone else on the job because at the end of the day, they want the whole project to end up being really nice, something that everybody's proud of.
Scott: Yeah. So you brought up a good point that you'll stop by. We-- I always used to do that because I knew the project was going. I knew the job was coming, and I also know that sometimes communication's poor. So I would make it my responsibility to kind of just spot-check or have someone stop by.
Scott: Could you see if the drywall's up? How, how are the tapers doing? These types of things so that in a way I'm- Managing the project as far as it go-- it's for me because I know what's going to happen. Like you said, they're going to call and say, "Shoot, I forgot to call you, but we need you tomorrow." And so I'd always, I'd always, you know, [00:15:00] make sure I was on top of it.
Scott: And the other thing we would do is we wouldn't necessarily believe all the time they were telling us the truth. Like, "Yep, the drywall's totally done. It's sanded, and it's swept out." And you're like, "Yeah, I don't believe you."
Scott: So, you know, so, you know, they say, "I need 10 guys tomorrow," and you're like, you know. So I wouldn't send anybody, and of course, it makes them mad, but I would go, and inevitably they're not ready. And I would-- And so I would have a conversation that says, you know, going back to your respect, you know, we're here to make money and make you-- your look good but both are critical.
Rick: Absolutely. Yeah, there's no... I mean, what's the goal? The goal is to turn out a wonderful project, right? So let's figure out how we can work together, do this dance together so that it's, it turns out beautifully. You know? There's no benefit for making it harder than it needs to be.
Rick: You know, you don't want to show up to go prime drywall and the drywall guy hasn't [00:16:00] vacuumed anything after they sanded. You know? And if you're going to shoot it, you're going to spray that primer, what are you going to do? You're going to spend more time vacuuming everything than you would painting it, and who's got time to do that?
Rick: So, I mean, that, those, it's just like those little things.
Touch Ups and Change Orders
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Rick: You had said something about gray area. I think the biggest gray area working with contractors is touch-up. Who's responsible for touch-up? Who's responsible once an area, a wing, a surface is finished painting? You know? It's like how do you get them to acknowledge it?
Rick: We have finished in here. Anything that's done in here from now on, if we have to come back, you're going to pay me for it. You know? And a lot of times they're rushing, they're pushing you through, and your folks on site are taking care of things just because they want to get it done, and then when you want to get reimbursed for it, then all of a sudden it's a question and it's a problem, and they've already got the work.
Rick: You know, [00:17:00] that's the hardest thing when it's... That's like one of the hardest things for me working with contractors.
Training Crews for GC Work
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Rick: But I also feel like that's a major area that you need your team to be trained in.
Scott: So speak a little more about that. What-- How do you train them in what you were just addressing?
Rick: Keep the work to the scope, and don't go above and beyond the scope unless we get pricing, and then let them approve it. Don't get caught up in the momentum of a job when you're working for a general contractor, right? You've got to be aware enough to stop and say, "Timeout. This is over and above what we priced.
Rick: This is not included in the job, and we need to get pricing to you for you to approve ASAP." And it needs to be approved, because that's the other problem. Sometimes you'll have a site person say, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's approved. It's approved." But then, you know, 30 days later when the invoice is getting read by somebody who maybe it was the estimator or a project manager that's not on site every day, they're like, "Wait a minute, we didn't approve this.
Rick: Why are you charging us for this?" You [00:18:00] know? And then it's a he said, she said. And we're all so busy And we're all trying to do the right thing. It just takes energy that's not necessary to spend on something like that. It's better to just don't get wrapped up into that momentum and that sense of urgency that they try to put us in sometimes.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I've heard all sorts of stories of, well, that person doesn't have the authorization to even sign the change order, and you're like...
Rick: it's the everybody's pointing at everybody
Scott: right?
Rick: And you're like, "Well..." Well, guess what? The touch-up got done and everything looks great, and the homeowner's really happy, and now we're not getting paid, so you're welcome.
Scott: Yeah. Hopefully, you get a Christmas card from the owner because we just did the touch-ups for free.
Scott: And, you know, the site people will almost offer you their firstborn just to have you keep going. And then, but when it comes down to it, they're like, "Oh, boy." Right? They know darn well what they did, but they're going to throw you under the bus, and you're not going to get paid.
Scott: You're right.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah, and it, and there and it's like if we can avoid putting people in those [00:19:00] awkward positions, let's just do it all together. Let's just do it all together. So, you know, that brings up another point, Scott. It's like when you're doing these kinds of jobs, what type of employees do you want there?
Rick: You know? You're really good at the personality testing and all that. There's probably certain DISC profiles that work really well with general contractor jobs versus homeowners, because I think it's a very different type of employee that you want.
Check Out "A Taste Of Coaching" from C4C!
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Well, we are about halfway through our episode with Scott and Rick today. If you've been listening to Success Beyond the Brush and thinking to yourself, "I know what to do, I just don't know how to actually implement it," then this is for you. Right now, Consulting4Contractors is offering a Taste of Coaching.
You can reserve your spot with either Scott or Rick. This is not a course. This is real coaching. It's going to start with a focused business discovery process where your coach understands exactly where you are, where you want to go, and what's currently [00:20:00] holding you back. From there, Scott and Rick are going to build a personalized KPI scorecard and roadmap for your business, so you're not guessing anymore.
You know exactly what numbers matter and what actions to take next. You'll also get one-on-one coaching sessions over Zoom, plus access to a live mastermind with other contractors, basically giving you a built-in advisory board. It's offered at a nearly 50% discounted rate compared to their premium coaching program, and spots are limited.
So you can go through the experience, get real value out of this, and then decide if you want to continue. There's no contracts and no pressure. Check the link in the show notes or video description to grab your spot today. Let's jump back into the rest of this episode with Rick and Scott
Segue Into Bidding Contracts
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Scott: Well, it's a perfect segue into what I was I wanted to also touch on is bidding contracts. Do you find that in these projects you're given a really hard bid based [00:21:00] on a print with really clear surfaces and exclusions?
Exclusions Save You
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Scott: Or, you know, you said you already ha- you already kind of shared that you had a $11,000 lesson where you didn't catch something in the bid packet and you didn't exclude it.
Scott: Like, it would've been fine if you had said "Exclusions, we are not caulking the windows," but you didn't do that.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah, because it was a painted window, and it was a pre-finished stucco, and I'm like, "Well, why am I..." If it was a painted surface on each side of the gap I would've said, "Yes, we're responsible for that," but I wasn't. So yeah, you really need... I almost think I've learned over the years, it's almost more important to state what you excluded than what you included.
Rick: And I think it's just as important because I think as estimators, you know, we're looking at these drawings, they're cumbersome, they take a lot of time, and you want to be done because you got two more to look at or something like that if you're an estimator. And you tend [00:22:00] to, I think, try to hurry through them without rushing.
Rick: But I do think exclusions are as important as inclusions, as what is included, for sure. Because that's the part, that's another gray area that you can really get burned. Really get burned.
Scott: I couldn't agree with you more on that. And you know, there's a lot of times you'll see prints, and for those that haven't done much of this work, you're going to need to get familiar and get some training on how to read a blueprint.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah.
Avoid Vague Scope
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Scott: But there's-- prints are often very clear, and there's a lot of prints that are kind of boilerplate.
Scott: You'll see the same you know, same information on every print. It's just a boilerplate. And so if you're-- I've seen so many people say things like, "We're going to paint the whole house." I'm like, "What? That... No, you cannot say that. You mean you're painting the staircase and the built-ins and the everything?"
Scott: That's what you're saying. You're saying anything that the contractor has determined is paintable or to be painted, you've just agreed to it. So I agree with you [00:23:00] 100%. And even if you have things that you've assumed, like you assume cabinets are pre-finished probably.
Scott: But I still think it's important to say, "Here's exactly what we're painting, and here's exactly what we're not painting."
Scott: And I don't think you can be too specific, and that is a mistake people make because then it opens it up to, hey I mean, Rick couldn't have given us a better example. "Hey when are you caulking the windows?" You're like, "I'm not caulking the windows."
Rick: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: You know, you bid off the print and the print blah, blah, blah, and it's in your, it's in your section.
Scott: It's in 0900 and so, you know, you opened yourself up to something that you didn't have a clue would ever be in the painting scope.
Track Drawing Revisions
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Rick: The other thing that's really important is to always refer to the drawing with the date of the drawing that you're using, because as you know, when you're, when the contractor's getting pricing together that could be way before the project even starts or comes out of the ground. Those drawings get revised many times [00:24:00] from the time it's bid and you've priced it till the time you show up at the job site.
Rick: So there's your opportunity to reconcile what you priced and make sure there's not areas now that need to be included or areas that need to be excluded. So we're doing a job right now, stucco house. They put a big addition on this existing stucco house. We priced painting all the stucco, all the new and all the old stucco.
Rick: Well, the stucco contractor, it was pre-finished. It already has the color in it, right? So that was one where we had to reconcile it and give them a deduct as opposed to an addition. So it's important to do that. You know, I tell my estimators and my project managers, you know, is a story. So we started this estimate, the story said this, but the story's evolved since then.
Rick: So we need to see where we are now, because there's been many times where projects have, you know, [00:25:00] grown in scope, and we didn't catch it, and people get work for free sometimes, unfortunately, and we don't want that to happen.
Scott: Yeah.
Scope Creep Reality
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Scott: Yeah, and to your point about having the right people and understanding the scope and not getting emotional about doing things that aren't on the scope, how many times have you looked at a print, it was very basic, you bid it, and then the house got built, and you show up and there's like insane amount of wainscoting or some kind of m- moulding or crown moulding or whatever, and you're like this wasn't anywhere in the original print.
Scott: It just got, like, creative because a designer got involved." The next thing you know, carpenter's, you know, puking on the house, and you're supposed to fill holes, caulk, and paint everything, and it's not even close to what you bid.
Rick: Yeah, because a lot of these high-end contractors are working for very influential people that have deep pockets, and they can design as they go. So, you know, you bid a jo- a, a job, and that's the basic job, but as they start seeing it evolve and being built out of the ground, they come up with new ideas, and [00:26:00] they add things.
Rick: So yeah, I mean, it's... It takes a lot of energy. It really does. And that's why we do a segment of our business as that, but we don't do all of our-- All of our painting is not working for contractors. I don't think I could do it.
Scott: Absolutely.
Project Management Roles
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Scott: So let's talk a little bit about project management or how you manage these types of projects. How do you manage the on-site or the GC or the site super? And what kind of personnel do you find that you place on these jobs? Are all your people interchangeable, or do you have certain people that do better in this you know, sort of job than others?
Scott: And how do you manage scope creep and schedule and, hey, I need you to accelerate schedule. I need you to triple the crew size. How do you manage all that from the, you know, your management level and then also on-site?
Rick: Well, from the management level, you need somebody that is detail-oriented has a good relationship with the estimator in your company so that he or she really knows what the scope of [00:27:00] work was that was bid, okay? Because that's another issue we've had. Like you have a scope of work based on the drawings, and if a designer's involved, and all of a sudden you get a finish schedule, the finish schedule's all of a sudden telling you finishes on surfaces that are not in the estimate.
Rick: So you've got to compare the two to make sure that they're, they, you know, they're similar. You don't want something on the finish schedule that's not a surface that was on the drawing. So you need a project manager that can really keep up with that. And then a project manager on the day-to-day that can really see the flow of how the work is going there with all the other trades involved, so they know whether it's a good time to load up labor to get a lot done or to keep it at a minimum to keep plugging along.
Rick: You need someone who has good intuition that can do this, right? That can kind of see how things are going, see what's coming. So, you know, a project man- you can't have somebody that gets overwhelmed easily, you know?
Rick: And you need [00:28:00] somebody that can see down the road and plan. I think it's, that's critical.
Soft Skills On Site
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Rick: And then you need somebody on site who's not a pushover, but it's not going to be a bulldog either. And by pushover, you don't want somebody that's just a pleaser that whatever that site guy for the contracting company says he's going to do, he or she's going to do.
Rick: But you don't want a bulldog that's going to be so defensive and so no, no, no, that then it ruins the relationship and the contractor never wants you on site again.
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: So there really is an art to working for people like this, as there is a different way of working with designers, as there's a different art to working with most homeowners.
Rick: But homeowners are a little different because you can't-- their needs are different.
Scott: Yeah, and I think we talk a lot these days about soft skills, emotional intelligence, and having someone that has a little skill to deal with whoever the on-site personnel or the project manager on the GC side, because sometimes there's a lot of pressure coming down [00:29:00] on them. And what happens is then they put pressure on you, and if you just react to that but a little empathy there, a little bit of, "Hey, what's going on?
Scott: W-w-there's no way we can, you know, meet that schedule," or, "We need some time." And handling those conversations carefully can really help diffuse some, you know, some problems.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah, and the other thing is it takes a certain kind of person that can be at a project, because some of these projects can last months. A person that can handle being at a, at one place for months. Because a lot of painters love the fact that they can move around from one job site to the next, day in and day out, week in and week out.
Rick: So you need somebody that's not going to get bored somebody that can really look at a bigger project and break it up into little pieces and feel that sense of accomplishment getting those little pieces done towards the big goal. Because if not, you get somebody that after a while becomes disenchanted, disinterested, and then you're going to start losing money on the job.
Rick: Because they're not staying, they're not staying [00:30:00] engaged, and they don't keep the people that are working with them engaged. And you really have got to kind of keep a decent work pace up in this environment to stay on schedule and to make money. Because it's, you know, you're already making a lower margin than you would on a repaint job, and you have less control.
Rick: So you've got a few things stacked against you. So you want to put the best people on the projects that you can.
Handling Schedule Crunch
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Scott: How do you handle schedule acceleration or, you know, you needed a month and they're giving you two weeks. How do you manage unrealistic schedules or deadlines?
Rick: I think the best way to handle it is to have a conversation and say that's not possible. And there's been times when I said, "You know, we can-- We have a big crew." You know, people always with our-- always say, "Oh, y'all are so busy, y'all are so busy." And, and yeah, we stay busy. I said, "But we have a big crew, and if you're going to accelerate it, I'm happy to try to still do the best I can with your deadline, but I'm going to need to see if you [00:31:00] can get permission for overtime to, to pay us reimbursements for overtime."
Rick: We did that. We've done that this past month. I don't like a lot of overtime if I don't need it. But you know, we'll-- we can get seven to 10 people working on a Saturday, and we can make a big difference, especially when other trades aren't there. So if we can get a general contractor to approve that when the schedule gets a little wonky, you know, I'm happy to work with them.
Rick: But it's got to be a win-win, right? We can get a lot done for you, so you win, but you've got to pay us that little bit of extra that it's going to cost us for overtime so that we can win.
Standing Up To Bullies
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Scott: Back to the conversation we were having about managing the on-site management. I was involved with a half a million dollar paint job in Chicago. It was a conversion of an old school to apartments, and they had hired a super it was a hired gun, and he had incentives to get that job done, and he was a very intimidating person, and he would intimidate you with his words, and then he would [00:32:00] re- in-- raise his intensity, and then he would slam doors and, you know, s- drop book, you know, notebooks on the table real forcefully, and he just intimidated all the trades.
Scott: And I just stood my ground, and, and it was interesting how we got to the point where we had a relationship of respect, and it was this. It was like, "I want to help you be successful, so let's, let's just focus our energy on that." And at the end of that job, he thanked me and expressed that without my direct involvement couldn't have m- imagined the scope getting done.
Scott: So, but again, a
Rick: But you probably taught him a lesson too, Scott. You probably taught him that some of those techniques weren't as effective as he thought they were, right? Because they didn't work with you, and he still achieved success. So good for you for teaching him that.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. But younger people can be intimidated and get sucked into doing things that are not required or reasonable just because [00:33:00] they're afraid or because someone is just, you know, overpowering them. And, and I think if you can get on that level playing field of, "Hey, we both have the same goal here.
Scott: Let's just work up to that end," it can be really successful.
Support Young Leaders
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Rick: Yeah, and to speak to what you just said about having some that's y- somebody that's young and can be intimidated, what you need to do is you need to have a project manager that's not going to let them leave them out there on an island. You need to make them feel like they're really supported. We have a very young crew leader that's doing a job two hours away from Richmond, and he's killing it.
Rick: He's doing a great job. But they go see him regularly, and he knows the project manager and my operations manager have his back, and that makes a big difference. When the schedule got accelerated, they got him more people. You know, when he needs things to be successful, they listen to him, and I think that's important because as that stress builds on site and he feels that support behind him, it helps deflate some of that, and I think that's super [00:34:00] important. You know, we can't just say, "Oh, that's tough luck. That's just the way this job is," and let him get all stressed out. It's just not the way you treat people.
Scott: Pedal harder. J- just, "You're fine. I- I'm busy. I can't help you." But to just lit- to in fact support them and show up and let them know that you're really on the team is very powerful.
Rick: Absolutely. I mean, these jobs require more supervision, and they require, as we used to call it, it requires collar shirts to be on the job site more You know, that's what we call supervisors or somebody that's not on a job site, you know, not clocking into an hourly kind of thing is those types of people.
Rick: And you need to know that going in, that it's going to take more management power to get these types of jobs done. The bigger ones. You know, if you're doing a bathroom remodel, no. Or even a kitchen remodel sometimes, no. But these bigger jobs that are, you know, months of work, absolutely.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
Break Big Jobs Down
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Scott: Do you have any advice or tricks or tools that [00:35:00] you use that help people, I'm talking about your painting team not get o-o-overwhelmed by the size? So I think there's probably times where you have jobs that are a thousand or more hours in, in length, and how do we, how do we manage, you know, breaking that down into usable pieces so that we don't, you know, get to the end of our time and say, "Hey, we're only halfway done," and have another fifty percent?
Rick: Break it up into smaller pieces and smaller segments of time. That's the best way to do it. And a lot of times I've-- we've, as managing the project, we will not even talk about other parts of the house until they've finished other parts. You know what I mean? It's like, let's not talk about the kitchen if we're not going to get down to the kitchen for two months, or let's not talk about the first floor if we're not going to get down there for another two weeks.
Rick: I don't want you to even think about it. And I'll tell the guy on [00:36:00] site, "Don't talk to him about it. If y'all have questions, talk to the project manager. We want to work on samples or colors so that when we get down there, we're ready." But I need him to focus, we need him to focus, him and his team to focus on the third floor.
Rick: He's got two weeks to do it, and that's what he's thinking about, is the next two weeks and that third floor. But you've got to sort of segment it that way, because if you don't, you're right a job can drag on and all of a sudden you've eaten up 75% of your hours and you're not even halfway done.
Rick: And that's scary. Really scary.
Scott: Yeah. Well said.
Cash Flow And Getting Paid
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Scott: As we kind of wrap up this conversation, I did want to talk a little bit about getting paid. How do you you know, manage the getting paid part or set that expectation or you know, are there people you won't work for because they don't pay you quick enough?
Scott: How do you manage your cash flow when you're doing these types of jobs?
Rick: You've got to have a good mixture of work. We're-- luckily we're, our company is Of a big enough size that [00:37:00] we have other crews going on that are creating good cash flow, good positive cash flow. But if all you're doing is this kind of work, it's tough. You're always going to get paid 30 days behind the time you spent it.
Rick: You know? You're always going to be behind, and you need a credit line so you can borrow money and then pay it back when you finally get paid. You can play that game. I mean, I've tried all of those things. I think it's important, like you said earlier about vetting a contractor, talk to some subcontractors.
Rick: Ride by there. If you see trucks of electricians and trucks of plumbing companies, call them and ask them, "Hey, I see you're working for so and so. How... Is it hard for you to get your money? Do you have to chase it down? Do they call you to tell you they have a check for you, or do you have to call them six times to say, 'Hey, when am I going to get paid?'"
Rick: You know, there's a big difference there. And the ones that call you to say, "Hey, I've got your check ready," those are the people you want to work for. And they do exist, and they're out there. Because they understand the game. They understand that they're only as good [00:38:00] as the subcontractors that work for them, and they treat them with respect and they treat them well.
Rick: I think everybody can have a bad job, but just like em- employees, you know, sometimes they need to go, and a, contractor's the same way. I mean, i- if they treat you poorly two times in a row I don't think I'd give them another chance. What's the point?
Scott: Sure.
Payment Terms And Cutoffs
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Scott: I also want to encourage people to have an open conversation with whoever they're working with about the terms. It's, you know, I think...
Scott: At the top
Rick: of the bid, right? When you bid it. Yeah. Why spend all this time bidding a job and then getting it only to find out that they don't pay you for 60 days?
Scott: Yeah. And I think that there's two two different thoughts here that sometimes people have. One is that somehow if you are successful, that you would have all this money to fund their construction costs, and that's just nonsense. I mean,
Scott: that's just, you know. Tell me one vendor you have, tell me one bill you pay that they just say, "Pay me whenever you feel like it."
Scott: It's just not the way the world [00:39:00] works. But somehow you think you should be better than everyone else, and you should have you know, a million dollars in the bank.
Rick: Yeah. The one that gets me the most, this is the one that, talking about payment, that I can't stand, is when you call them to ask them when you're going to be paid and they tell you, " Well, the owner hasn't paid us yet."
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: And it's like, wait a minute. It... I- if I knew I was waiting for the owner to, to pay somebody, I should've just had my contract with the owner, right?
Rick: But my contract is with you, who is the contractor, and I've done the work, and I've invoiced the work, and it's done to your satisfaction. You should be paying me. But they say, "Well, the owner hasn't paid us yet." And I just, I'm like, "Oh my God, I can't take that."
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. So understanding that it's okay to talk money and then make sure you understand the procedures so that you don't miss a payment or draw, a draw cut-off or, you know, the, you know,
Rick: Yeah, if they're doing the AIA contract or something like that, you definitely want to know how to do that.
Scott: So I would always encourage the question [00:40:00] of, where do I send this? You know, because sometimes you send it to the wrong person, and they don't they don't care, and next thing you know, you miss your cut-off.
Scott: When's the cut-off? And then what are the terms? And you mentioned the fourteen days just randomly today. It's okay to request a different term, and some people will honor that, or they just think that's what you asked for, so they'll abide by it. We used to start putting it in there for our commercial projects, twenty one, you know, net twenty one.
Scott: Why did I come up with that? I don't know. We just
Scott: started saying it.
Rick: Something unique.
Scott: And the reason why we said it is we were hoping then that we would get paid in thirty. That was why. And it was just an arbitrary number that we started putting in our agreements. But understanding what the terms are, and they're valid, right?
Scott: I mean, you're doing a-- the builder's doing a million-dollar project. They might not be liquid for a hundred grand. They do need to get the owner pay them first. But like you said, Rick, you shouldn't be in the place of have-having to finance someone else's home.
Rick: Yeah.
Scott: Understanding that process.
Rick: And to your point too, Scott, none of it should be a surprise, [00:41:00] right? Ask the right questions at the beginning, set the expectation at the beginning so that you're not surprised when you submit that first bill, and 30 days after the bill, you still haven't been paid, right? It shouldn't be a surprise.
Rick: So if you decide you want to work for them, you do it because you know what their terms are, and you're okay with it.
Scott: Yeah.
Start Small And Scale
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Scott: So if you're going to do some of this work, you know, it's either a line of credit, like Rick said if you have the capacity and the ability to do that, otherwise, you're going to need some retained earnings to fund this. And I would say start small. Don't go start with a three hundred thousand dollar paint job. Start with a, you know, twenty thousand dollar remodeling paint job that you can cash flow and work your way up to the big time if you're needing, you know, three, four hundred thousand dollars to float your receivables, which a lot of people have that kind of receivable out there easily, then wait till you're ready.
Rick: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yep.
Final Takeaways
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Scott: So overall, you feel good [00:42:00] about working with generals, and you will continue to do this when they fit?
Rick: Yes. Yeah I don't like stereotyping anybody I, you know, I don't-- and I don't think it's right to stereotype general contractors because there are good people that do general contracting. That build houses, that renovate houses, that r-remodel bathrooms. You know, there are, and they're out there.
Rick: It's just a matter of finding them, you know? And I think it's a great segment of business if you can find a good group of people that you respect and that respect your company.
Scott: Yeah. Great conversation. Rick, I appreciate your time. I think this has been helpful to people that are either timid about, you know, working with GCs or have had some bad experiences and just avoid them altogether. It might-- It's not a bad place to drive some revenue.
Scott: And like you said, not necessarily the best thing to put all your eggs in, but definitely should be considered for one of your [00:43:00] revenue flows.
Rick: Yes, I agree 100%. Yeah, great conversation, Scott. Thank you.
Scott: Thanks. Talk to you next time, Rick.
Thanks For Listening To Success Beyond The Brush!
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Thanks again for listening to this episode of Success Beyond the Brush. You know, working with general contractors does not have to mean losing control of your schedule or your scope or your cash flow. As Scott and Rick discussed, the key is knowing how to vet the right relationships, set clear expectations, protect your pricing, and support your team on the job site.
If you found this conversation helpful, make sure to subscribe, share this episode with another contractor, and leave a review whenever you listen. For more information, links and resources, ways to connect with Consulting4Contractors, and lots more, check the show notes or video description. Thanks again so much for listening to Success Beyond the Brush