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Listen to Juergen Maier’s views on scaling frontier industries, growing regional ecosystems and how Catapults can support the levelling up agenda.
In the Catapult Network’s Supercharging Innovation podcast, knowledge experts and leaders from the Catapult Network talk with some of the UK’s top industrial and academic leaders and parliamentarians to get their views on science, innovation and technology. Together, they are putting UK innovation under the spotlight and exploring the role of Government, businesses, the research community, private investors, and other innovative organisations in strengthening the economy through collaboration. Welcome to the Catapult Network’s Supercharging Innovation Podcast, subscribe now.
The Innovate UK Catapult Network provides a unique combination of cutting-edge R&D facilities and world-class technical expertise to support UK business innovation. Catapults are a critical element of Innovate UK’s portfolio of products and services, where the application of research is accelerated, and where new technologies are further developed, scaled up and realised. The Catapult Network is made up of nine world-leading technology and innovation centres with more than 65 national locations.
Hello, and welcome to Catapult Network's Supercharging Innovation podcast. My name is Jeremy Silver, chair of the Catapult Network. In this series, I'm talking with some of the UK's top industrial and academic leaders, business people, and parliamentarians to get their views on the future of innovation. On today's episode, I'm delighted to welcome Juergen Mayer. Juergen is chair of the digital catapult. He's the cochair with the Bay's Business Secretary of State of the Made Smarter Commission and vice chair of the Northern Powerhouse. And he's the former chief executive of Siemens UK, a position we held from July 2014 to December 2019. Joergen was made an honorary professor of engineering at the University of Manchester in 2014 and became a fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering in 2017. And in that year, he was also asked by the government to lead a review into how to increase the digitalization of the UK manufacturing sector. And in 2019, he was awarded a CBE in the new year's honors list. Jurgen, it's a real pleasure to welcome you today.
Juergen Maier:It's, it's a real pleasure to be talking to you about a topic that you and I, Jeremy, are both incredibly passionate about.
Jeremy Silver:We are indeed, and it's great to have you with us. It's extraordinary to sort of set out your career and your accomplishments like that. And and, actually, I thought it would be interesting to sort of ask you to reflect a bit on your first encounter with catapults when you were at Siemens and perhaps give us a sense of from a corporate perspective, how you valued and what you thought of catapults then and perhaps then, you know, how you see them now.
Juergen Maier:Yes. Well, I mean, my long, Siemens career of 33 years and actually right at the beginning, I remember engaging with UK universities. Fascinatingly, the first university I personally engaged within a professional capacity as a as an engineer was in Siemens in, in Congleton, where we were working with the University of Manchester in the creation of a new product. Those products, actually still being produced today in Congleton, believe it or not. Variable speed drives, and there was some IGBT electronic, innovation being patented actually, in the university, and we worked with them.
Juergen Maier:And so I've always been a fan of British research. But what became clear through my career is that we really were not very good at scaling, a lot of that brilliant research. And in fact, if you if you look up the period of my first career, that was the rise of of the silicon revolution, wasn't it? It was the 1st microprocessors, the 1st programmable logic controllers, and Siemens were big in this space. But where was it all being scaled up?
Juergen Maier:Okay. I gave a nice example of of the lovely Siemens factory in, but actually most of it was being scaled up in the USA, in Japan, and in Europe, it was really Germany that was dominating. So in a long way, what I'm saying is is that it was in that early career that I realized that catapults were missing as part of the British research and innovation landscape. And, of course, I was aware of how Germany did this, through Siemens with their Fraunhofer Institutes. And so I was calling for 20 years, really, for having something like the Fraunhofer's.
Juergen Maier:And then finally, when Hermann Hauser together with actually, that was the Labor Party at the time, and I got involved in that early review of British scaling up of research. And I was delighted that we were finally beginning to create what today has become the catapults and has become very successful. So that's a little bit of the history of my involvement.
Jeremy Silver:So so there are only a few people in the UK who pursued catapults in quite the, determined way that you have and have seen them sort of from their from their genesis all the way through to where we are today. But obviously, Catapult's a part of an attempt to address an innovation challenge that the UK has, and you alluded to that earlier. And and, of course, there's a lot of talk at the moment about innovation. The government is busy writing its innovation strategy, which is going to be published later this year. In many ways, it appears to always be a replacement for the entire industrial strategy as we as we understand it, but it remains to be seen exactly what form it will take.
Jeremy Silver:You alluded to it earlier a little bit, but do you think there is a problem with innovation in the UK?
Juergen Maier:Well, it's historically been a very big problem, and I think the problem is slowly getting smaller. And I say that because, you know, if we take so catapults have been roughly 10 years in the making. Either people haven't heard of catapults at all or people were still skeptical of catapults. And I think now when you go out and you particularly you talk to industry, I think most people will say, do you know? Yes.
Juergen Maier:These catapults are really creating value as part of the ecosystem. And indeed, you know that we've just had 2 reviews, 1 from, the House of Lords and, and and 1 from, the Department of Business Base, And both have concluded that the catapults are creating real value in that scale up of technology and helping companies embrace new technologies much earlier than they they otherwise would. So you know, we've made a lot of progress. Now where the problem still is is that we haven't scaled them enough, anywhere near enough. You and I both work in the digital catapult.
Juergen Maier:We're very proud of the work that we are doing. We have fantastic engagements with with start ups and corporates, and we're encouraging people to adopt 5 g in industrial environments faster than they would have done before. But are we really scaling this, and are we getting, you know, not just a few 100, but thousands of companies involved in this work? And that's where we've still got work to do.
Jeremy Silver:What do you see as being the route to scaling? You know, because in many respects, we've created in Catapults, very specialized centers of expertise with deep tech understanding and good industrial understanding as well. But this scaling challenge is it's difficult to to scale expertise of that kind. So do you have a sense when, you know, when we we look across the broader innovation ecosystem, when you think about some of the other players and, obviously, universities you you've mentioned as as key players probably around the UK, but all sorts of other other entities at a at a local level. LEPS increasingly having a role.
Jeremy Silver:How do you see that scaling challenge being addressed?
Juergen Maier:So we've tried various versions of industrial strategy, and they all moved us forward, a little bit. But they've been a bit of a sort of a stop start. And, of course, we've now decided that the last industrial strategy is not going to be refreshed in the way that was originally intended. And I think the place where it is now all going to happen, is in Regent's. So everybody is talking about this word place.
Juergen Maier:Everything will happen in place, and I think that's where this is now going to really take shape. You know, I haven't, well, we haven't seen the innovation strategy. We haven't seen the play space innovation strategy yet, But my sort of gut feeling of where it's going is that we're going to have in each key region, leveling up region, you know, so that is it's the Midlands, it's the Northeast, it's the Northwest, etcetera. I think we're going to see the development of scaled innovation ecosystems with universities, obviously, at the part of that, with scaled catapults. And that could be a combination of catapults.
Juergen Maier:So it could be, you know, in in our example, it could be high value manufacturing catapult, working with digital catapult, working with universities. And I think that each region should try and identify 1 distinctive innovation theme topic in which that region can be world beating in the next 10 years. So I do quite a lot of work with Greater Manchester. And in Greater Manchester, we're talking about 2 key themes, and 1 is health innovation, and the other 1, which very much applies to our work in the digital catapult and the high value manufacturing catapult, is, sustainable materials, and particularly those materials in the use of more sustainable products and therefore high value manufacturing. And I could see a vision where a scaled up high value manufacturing catapult, there isn't actually 1 of those in Manchester or Greater Manchester yet, and I think there should be digital catapult then, then as part of that.
Juergen Maier:And then you're creating and, obviously, with the University of Manchester, Manchester Metropolitan University, with with additive manufacturing expertise, and so on. And now you can see that replicating in South Yorkshire, in North Yorkshire, the Humber, Northeast, etcetera. So that's how I think we need to scale it up as long as our government is really prepared to put some scaled up funding behind it. And here I I often give the comparison of the Fraunhofer's to the catapults. And, you know, you and I know that the catapults receive around about a 160, 000, 000 pounds worth of funding government funding a year, all catapults together.
Juergen Maier:And in Germany, that number is €2, 800, 000, 000 Now look, the Fraunhofer's have been around for 4 decades. Such a stark contrast.
Jeremy Silver:How does that translate with you? If you look at Germany and the German economy and the makeup of German industry and the kinds of companies and size of companies that that sit there. Obviously, that investment in the Fraunhofer's is having an impact on on that. So what is the comparison there? And is is, I mean, is is that a model that we that we should really be emulating, do you think?
Juergen Maier:Yes. It's it's is the answer. Now, you know, when originally the review was done to form the catapult And like I say, you know, I was party to those reviews and that discussion that Hammond Hauser was leading at the time. We did actually say we want to very much emulate that model. However, we also knew we had an opportunity that our catapults could be better, because, you know, I mean, 1 advantage of coming to the party a little bit late is that you can now design these with the very new technologies in place.
Juergen Maier:And, actually, the digital catapult is an example of that. You know, what you tend to see a lot in Germany, certainly in the manufacturing space, is you have lots of Fraunhofer's in what I would call, maybe more traditional automation and robotics and process automation, all themes I'm very familiar with from Siemens. But, actually, they probably aren't as scaled in some of the things that we're doing in artificial intelligence, in 5g, in the use of augmented, you know, and and I think to some level, we've done that successfully in the UK, but we now need to scale it.
Jeremy Silver:But if you look at the relationship between the Fraunhofer's and the surrounding industry, is is there a set of relationships that you can see there that that doesn't yet exist in the UK? And it's I think I I'm just wondering, you know, that level of investment is so much higher. So maybe we can achieve as much for a bit less because we can be smarter about it. But what does the end picture look like there that we haven't perhaps got to yet?
Juergen Maier:Well, the end picture looks like that. In each 1 of these ecosystems, you have a sort of a a coordinating body, and that actually tends to be well, it's a combination of the Fraunhofer and the local chamber of commerce actually. So it's like local government working with the catapult, and they are the orchestrators of this whole ecosystem. They are the people who are engaging with business, who are also then bringing in the university, research into it. And they're really creating a landscape that over many, many years, even small to medium sized companies understand and know how to engage with.
Juergen Maier:So if you're a small to medium sized manufacturing company in Rheinhessen or Stuttgart, you know, just to name an example, you know, I go to my Fraunhofer. I know who they are, and they will connect me with this manufacturing challenge that I've got on my shop floor. In the UK, well, just ask that question. Where do I go? Well, I could go to a catapult, but which 1 do I go to?
Juergen Maier:And then there is a local growth hub I could go to. There are numerous sort of locally set up manufacturing forums. We've got KTNs. We've got Innovate UK. You know?
Juergen Maier:And it's all just all brilliant stuff, but it's not as well coordinated and the community around it isn't as visible. And I think that's what we want to create. You know, I'm sort of describing them as mega innovation clusters in each of our regions with catapults right at the heart of it.
Jeremy Silver:Is there a lack of leadership in a way do you think around this? Is this is this part of the the challenge that there's a I mean, what you describe in Germany, and perhaps this is reflects some national characteristics, is something very ordered and structured. And what it appears in the UK is something a little bit more organic and, the number of flowers blooming. But as you say, that creates navigation problems for people trying to find their way around that. Do we lack leadership to bring that all together in a sense of order, or what does it require?
Juergen Maier:Yeah. I think it's a combination of, sort of leadership and vision and policy coordination. But we've also got to remember that it's only been a decade that we've started to really seriously talk about innovation and industries that that are grounded in innovation and research should be a key part of the future in our regional economies. I mean, before 10 years ago, virtually nobody was speaking about that. When I first joined the local enterprise partnership in Greater Manchester, which was about 7 years ago, there was no conversations going on about growing innovation ecosystems.
Juergen Maier:You know, everything was about professional services and, and shared services. You might have started to speak a little bit about the new digital economist, but that really meant more website building and ecommerce building. And it's only in the last, like I say, well, probably 7 years that we've really built that strategy of deeper innovation. And, indeed, Greater Manchester now has a strategy called innovation Greater Manchester, and that's been borne about by, you know, industry leaders like myself, but many others in the region, the university, and various players in the, in the innovation landscape. I mean, interestingly, the 1 thing we're missing in Greater Manchester is a catapult, but we wanna put that right.
Jeremy Silver:I'm sure you do. I'm sure you will given enough time and opportunity. Let's just take a slightly different tack for a second. You mentioned at the beginning your your involvement with Made Smarter, and Made Smarter as an initiative is another player in the landscape in a sense. How does Made Smarter fit in and and and how do you see that contributing to this vision that you're describing?
Juergen Maier:So MadeSmarter, which is all about supporting small to medium sized companies in, the adoption of digital technologies in manufacturing. And, of course, you should have similar schemes in other, what I call, frontier industries. So where any industry where innovation is at the core, so this could also be in creative industries. It could indeed be in Fintech. And and this is a a business support, really.
Juergen Maier:Now again in Germany, this would be provided by the local chamber of commerce in in the northwest of England where we piloted quite a lot of this approach. We anchored it in the in the Greater Manchester Growth Hub. And this is part of this this ecosystem we are describing to say, you know, when innovation emerges out of a university, out of a catapult, how do we then encourage companies to engage with that innovation and to adopt it? And that's where made smarter and often made smarter working with Catapults can help companies adopt that. I mean, the digital catapult, Jeremy, as you know, I'm very excited about the made smarter accelerator technology accelerator program where we're plugging in start up companies, you know.
Juergen Maier:So this is maybe start ups with some virtual reality or augmented reality or startups with some data analytics and software around that. And we're engaging them around real industrial challenges to see how can we get those small companies working with larger companies and a create some new innovation and technology and b get companies to adopt it more.
Jeremy Silver:And it's interesting, isn't it? We've got made smarter in the manufacturing space, which which came out of a kind of prior generation industrial strategy. I mean, is there a sense in which you think we need a made smarter for every sector?
Juergen Maier:Yes is is the answer. And the way that I would see it is is that sort of broad for every industry, there is Help to Grow, which is the new, government initiative, which is supporting what I would call light commercial tech. So that is the, support in the adoption of a CRM system, or it could even be a a HR system, or it could be a simple enterprise or an ERP system. So it's those sorts of things. And that's for all industries and it's a sort of top layer.
Juergen Maier:You know, this is pretty basic stuff. And if you're an organization, if you haven't got this, you're really you're in trouble. You're not really going to to raise your productivity to the level you need to. And then for each sector, you have a deep dive, deeper tech support, and for manufacturing, that's called made smarter. For the creative industry, it's something else.
Juergen Maier:For people in health tech, it might be something else. So, I mean, I think that would be a rather smart way of cutting it.
Jeremy Silver:And I suppose the thing that's that's distinctive about it as well is the degree to which you've brought the private sector into the conversation. And and this is, the the government has has held quite rightly, I think, onto this target of of wanting to grow the proportion of GDP that's spent on r and d up to 2.4%. And I think, you know, at the moment, we're at about 1.7% of GDP. And I think Germany is already at about 3%. So this is a pretty ambitious target to try and reach.
Jeremy Silver:What's holding industry back, would you say, from participating more in this? And is it what's that picture look like across different sectors?
Juergen Maier:Well, I mean, the main thing holding the UK back is the word that we've already mentioned at least 10 times, which is scale. There is no lack of excellence in the UK. So, you know, if you want to engage with the best of technology and, again, let's use the example of 5 g or of, machine learning, you can find it. It's available. But what we don't always do is then scale it to a level where companies like the company I used to work for, Siemens, say, you know, yes.
Juergen Maier:This is the place where I want to engage, not just a little bit, but where I want to engage to do my main research for my global business. And, and to do that, it needs to be massive and scaled. So it's a so it's a little bit of a trick in an egg. You know, why does Germany have, I think, a 3.2% of GDP of research? Well, it's because Germany has these massive ecosystems with the Fraunhofer's.
Juergen Maier:Germany has about 30% of its GDP, in what I would call frontier industries, manufacturing, and then 2 or 3% of it is in creative industries. You've got a bit of health innovation. You add in all of you've got 30%. So now you have 30% of GDP, which is all pulling on some sort of an innovation ecosystem and is engaging and researching and putting money into it. In the UK, rough numbers, I make it that our frontier industries are about 20 of GDP, at 10% manufacturing, about 2% or 3% health innovation, about 2% or 3% Fintech, and we need to get that to 30%.
Juergen Maier:But where do you start? And you start by, you know, doing what I described earlier, which is really scaling some regional
Jeremy Silver:ecosystems. Presumably, when you were the CEO of Siemens UK, you were in a sense in competition with your fellow CEOs, of other countries around the world to try and make Siemens want to put things in the UK. Obviously, you were extremely successful in doing that, but I suppose the the question if you think about that more broadly, governments have a range of levers available to them to attract that inward investment. And obviously, you know, tax incentives and tax credits as as well as these kinds of innovation pieces. What were the sort of the complexion of of different levers that you that that you were looking for and that that would detract Siemens to come into the UK, for example?
Juergen Maier:I always describe sort of 4 key levers in that category actually. And 1 is, let's just call it all support policies, which includes taxations, R and D tax credit. We've just done super deduction incentive and all of that. Now the truth is is that the UK is competitive in that area, but it's not the area that is gonna make the difference. A 2% or a 3% hike or drop in corporation tax is not going to make the difference for Siemens wanting to scale some of its, innovation in the UK.
Juergen Maier:But it is heart of the package. The second piece is excellence, and that is excellence in r and d and in the skill space you've got available. And I'd say the UK generally scores very well. And as I've already said, you know, we have excellent skills. Our universities are packed, with I mean, very often it's international people, you know, who've come to great British universities to do their research and postdocs, etcetera.
Juergen Maier:And then you have 2 others, 1 of which, guess what, is scale. Generally, we don't do very well. And then the 4th very important 1 is local market demand. And, and, actually, if you look at where where where I was successful as Siemens chief executive and attracting some of the r and d. It was a combination of the excellence and the local market demand that drove it and not so much the scale.
Juergen Maier:A prime example of that being offshore wind. You know, why did we invest in the scale we did in offshore wind, both in research and development and and then actually, building, the blades and assembling wind turbines for the simple reason. This is Britain became the biggest offshore wind market in the world. So why wouldn't you? But what we didn't actually do and we still haven't done is really scaled the innovation ecosystem.
Juergen Maier:The offshore renewable catapult should be much, much bigger, and actually the digital and the high value manufacturing catapult should be playing a stronger part in that because offshore wind is not just all about big mechanical components like gearboxes and, obviously, huge blades. There's quite a bit of data and digital tech, and and when you service them, you might want to use augmented reality and virtual reality. And where is all of that innovation being developed and the new companies, the new start ups, coming through? Some in the UK, but not enough.
Jeremy Silver:It's interesting though that you you talk about there needing to be a scale of local demand. I mean, to some extent, a lot of the challenges that our emerging companies and developing companies in the UK have is the UK simply isn't a large enough market to make it make sense for them or that they need a larger global market. And obviously the US is always the bigger tractor, particularly in the tech sector. So is there a degree to which the UK should think of itself as a test bed for the rest of the world in in that kind of context? Is is, you know, is that a way that we should be thinking about it?
Juergen Maier:Absolutely. And and and that's why I made the distinction. You know, the reason why offshore was a success is because uniquely, the UK have this big market demand, but that doesn't very often exist. So therefore and that's why when I describe my 4 levers, it needs to be an interplay of all 4. And so take another example of electric vehicles, which, I often like to talk about.
Juergen Maier:Now look there, the local demand is not gonna be high enough. I mean, it's interesting. We're a big country. Lots of people wanna drive new electric vehicles, but you really need at least European, if not global scale. So therefore now, the only way you can play in that global market is if you absolutely out innovate in the area of batteries or in the area of electric drivetrain, on hydrogen vehicles.
Juergen Maier:It could be on fuel cell technology. And, actually, the truth is that at the moment, you know, we're playing in all of those areas. But are we really scaling and are we the global leader in any of those areas I've just mentioned? And I think the truthful answer has to be no.
Jeremy Silver:I mean, it's really interesting, isn't it? There's an enormous amount of research that goes on at British universities that never sees the light of day. And, obviously, 1 of the roles that we've talked about for Catapults and for the innovation ecosystem is to try and create new kind of ways of connecting into that research and helping it see the light of day. Do you think we're being creative enough in the way that we do that? Or do you think that we should be looking at new ways of working with universities?
Juergen Maier:I mean, I think there's been a big effort to increase and to make more efficient the sorts of, you know, incubators, technology accelerators, whatever name you want to give it. You know, I'd say Cambridge is probably that has shown the UK how how it's to be done, and I think Cambridge is particularly good. And you can see some of the the real examples, can't you? You know, Arm Holdings, you know, look, I know Arm Holdings in the end has ended up in the not bridging hands, but, you know, you can sort of see some of the companies that have come through that ecosystem. Oxford is, is doing pretty well, Imperial.
Juergen Maier:Sort of the northern universities do okay, but they need to massively improve. And, but I am seeing quite a few initiatives. Indeed. Again, I'm involved in 1 in Greater Manchester where we are creating a much stronger focus around both the capital, so the venture capital money being able to come in, being able to provide better support for the technology start up companies, and then, to provide them that sort of space in the ecosystem in which they can incubate and in which they, that they can grow. So I'm seeing evidence of us improving in that area, but, yes, obviously, always more needs to be done.
Jeremy Silver:1 of the things that obviously government is very concerned about at the moment is its leveling up policy. There's probably as many interpretations of what leveling up means as there are, spokespeople for the policy at this point, and I'm sure that more will become clear later in the year. But in terms of that that sense of a north south divide, clearly, there's a there's a strong political agenda trying to drive that notion of leveling up. Is there a role for innovation or is it confusing to bring innovation into the idea of leveling up? What's the connection between the 2, do you think?
Jeremy Silver:Oh, I
Juergen Maier:think it's absolutely at the center of it, quite frankly. I mean, yes, of course, leveling up is about infrastructure. There's a need to level up in some of our skill system, particularly in, where people are from, less privileged backgrounds and in comprehensive schools and and underperforming more so than than some regions in the southeast. But actually, for me, a key key part of the leveling up agenda is about, well, it's research and innovation. If you look at our journey to get to 2.4%, a significant part of that making up the difference has got to go into the northern regions and West Midlands, too, to create these sort of mega innovation clusters that will create the industries and the jobs of the future.
Juergen Maier:And I think that's absolutely a way, because if you look at what happened, you know, when we saw the demise of manufacturing and technology industries in the you know, second to the third industrial revolution, we didn't replace the jobs that were displaced with high value, well paid jobs. We largely replaced them with lower level lower paid service jobs, and that is what has led to the inequality that we're seeing today. So the only way you return that is to make sure that the jobs are created now as part of the 4th industrial revolution are high-tech, high innovation, high value, and therefore, by definition, well paid.
Jeremy Silver:It's really interesting, isn't it? The the kinds of businesses
Jeremy Silver:that can create those sorts of of high value jobs are very much forward looking.
Jeremy Silver:They're they are the products of your Frontier Industries that you're talking about and the things that will power those Frontier Industries. And when we think about the the kind of the skills that are needed for that, again, you know, what's the connection in your mind between the the you know, there's a there's a massive innovation thrust, but there's also this huge skills gap. Is it a smart way of of solving both problems at once, do you think?
Juergen Maier:Oh, 100%. So we used to call it industrial strategy. Let's now call it innovation strategy in a particular place. A place based innovation strategy is maybe what we should call it. And, you know, and absolutely, you've got a line up that okay.
Juergen Maier:So we've now said these are the industries. So I mentioned a couple, in Greater Manchester of health innovation and and unsustainable products based on sustainable new materials. So those are some of the key industries. So, therefore, you can now engage with your local further education colleges, obviously, your local universities. I argue you should actually go back even further than that into primary schools.
Juergen Maier:I mean, I often tell the story, of myself having gone to a Siemens sponsored primary school in Germany where Siemens happened to be a huge employer. Guess what? My mother worked for Siemens. My father worked for Siemens. Now this is all a little bit old fashioned maybe, and and that's not exactly what we're going to recreate, but but it's because of that that I think the way I do.
Juergen Maier:Because, you know, what I saw was a part of Germany that I lived in in the southwest that was changing from the old industries of the 19 sixties seventies into the new. And I saw, as a young person, the path for myself. I mean, in the end, it happened to be Siemens in the UK and not in Germany, but that's fine and fine. And it's the that sort of vision, that sort of path, and you've absolutely, got to got connected over. It's very often what we do.
Juergen Maier:So if you look at the latest launch of the lifetime skills guarantee, which is a fantastic initiative. But lifetime skills guarantee in what? And now unless you decide the in what, you're going to be training and upskilling a lot of people in things where the jobs might not exist. So you've absolutely got to connect the 2 and create the right pipeline for the right industries.
Jeremy Silver:So the other thing that's been going on in all of this time that we've been locked down with COVID and that we've been dealing with the pandemic has obviously been a challenge that changed the way we've thought about things and the way that we think about the nature of work. Alongside that, there has been an enormous upsurge in a realization of the way in which we need to treat minorities and the different parts of of our societies with more inclusion than with more equality. The challenges that we've just been talking about of how to grow and increase our productivity and how to scale innovation. How do you see that also that emphasis on on diversity and inclusion playing into that? How do they connect, and how do we achieve both?
Juergen Maier:Yeah. Well, I mean, I think there's 2 factors here. And 1 is it's just right and responsible to make sure that we include all of society in the future industries that we are create they're creating. And, historically, we've not done that. And, you know, I remember when we started on this journey when I was at Siemens, you know, and I would go into some of our factories, and the people working in the factory did not represent what I would see when I was walking around the town or the city centers.
Juergen Maier:And the simple sort of request that I put on our factories is to say, in 10 years' time, I'd like this factory inside it to look the same as the community does outside because that just seems fair and reasonable. But guess what? Yes. It's the responsible thing to do, but, actually, what you learn when you do it is that it you get a better outcome. Because, you know, when you've got people from different backgrounds, from different experiences, ultimately, you're also going to be the consumers of some of the product that you might be making.
Juergen Maier:Of course, you're going to get better innovation, better design, and better outcomes if you've had a truly inclusive approach to the ideas generation and the manufacturing processes and and all the rest of it. So it's a responsible thing to do, and it makes a huge amount of business sense.
Jeremy Silver:It's been so fascinating to talk to you today. We're nearly at the end of our conversation. But III like to throw in 1 last, not entirely serious question, but but at the same time, always fascinating to hear people's answers to this. So just before we finish, talk so much about innovation today. Have you got a favorite innovation?
Jeremy Silver:Is there 1 innovation that you would point to that you say, oh, yes. That's the thing that changed my life or, you know, I think he's just brilliant or what might that be?
Juergen Maier:0II was I mean, I always tend to sort of look forward as opposed to, as opposed to look backwards. But, I mean, I do have some favorite little gadgets. You know, the 1 that's always a talking point, is when I cycle around on my electric Brompton. And instead of putting a helmet on, I put on a a little airbag around my neck, which of course is, you know, full of sensors and accelerometers to hopefully not go off when I'm not just about fall off my bike, although I've got to say it did do that once. But it also saved me in a small, a small little accident.
Juergen Maier:So I've got some little gadgets like that that I love. But in terms of sort of trends for the future, I mean, the things that I love are everything quite frankly that we do in the digital catapult. And, and I have become, as you know, well, a bit of a a champion and, and an understanding of, of what 5 g is enabled to to create in factory environments. You know, this is not 5 g on my mobile phone, which is all very nice and makes it a little bit faster. This is really in the factory and being able to create more flexible factories, being able to capture data from many more devices, many more machines in factories.
Juergen Maier:I think that's very exciting. And then another 1 that everybody is pointing to, I'm gonna say I'm still getting my head around, but I do think it's gonna be another new a new wave, and that is the whole area of quantum computing. And so, you know, it's it's future technologies like that. Another 1 I would throw in that I'm particularly passionate about is the hydrogen economy, in the whole sort of, energy space. But, you know, there is so much to fascinate you, isn't there?
Juergen Maier:And all of the ones I've just mentioned are all going to be stronger industries of the future, all creating, highly innovative, highly creative, highly fun jobs for people up and down the United Kingdom.
Jeremy Silver:We're gonna have to have you back in 10 years' time and see how much of this stuff has has really come through and what's gonna be exciting you next. Thank you for joining us this week, and thank you to my guest this week, Juergen Meyer.
Juergen Maier:Been a pleasure. Thank you.
Jeremy Silver:That's all for today's Supercharging Innovation podcast. Thanks again for listening. Join us again for the next podcast episode, and make sure you subscribe to us on Itunes or Spotify. Other podcast distribution platforms are, of course, also available. Goodbye.