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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
AL: so I'm here with Emory Rivers.
We're colleagues in the ministry
support team at YouthWorks.
Which region are we from?
Emory
Annemarie: West.
West is best.
AL: The western region is where we
look after which for those that are in
the kind of Sydney area, you'll know.
That these words that I'm about
to say were Bacom Hills, basically
through to Lithgo which is on the
other side of the Blue Mountains.
And then Hawkesbury down to
the Parramatta kinda area.
So we got a lot of, we have a lot
of fun catching up with youth and
kids ministers in that, that area.
Why do you love the West Emery?
Annemarie: I just love working with
churches everywhere, but I think I like
the
west particularly because it reminds
me of where I grew up in the country.
Like we go all the way from like.
Inner city Parramatta churches,
multiple congregations, all the way
out to where it feels very country.
And they're much smaller churches.
And there's just, yeah.
So much variability and
Everybody's working hard to see
kids and youth come to Jesus.
AL: It's good times.
It's good times.
, We thought that we would kind of do
a little bit of a series I guess a
sneak peek into what the Youth and
Children's Ministry Foundations course
looks like at Youth Works College.
So what we're gonna be doing is spending
some time today thinking a little bit
about principle to practice, , which in
some ways if you end up doing the Youth
and Children's Ministry Foundation's
course, or some of you might be listening
from the course right now, but we, we
wanna just kinda let you know that.
Is in some ways really what we
do at YouthWorks in general, but
particularly, the Children's and
Youth Ministry Foundations course
is really kind of geared around
this idea of principle to practice.
So, Anne Marie, why are we thinking
about principle to practice or sometimes,
like we say, theology to practice?
Like what, what's going on there?
Annemarie: Well, I guess we're,
we wanna explore, , the way
that we think about ministry and
what good ministry looks like.
And so, , this really gives
a framework for our approach.
, We do wanna be, , thinking
well about what we do.
We don't wanna just
do what
has always been done
in our ministry areas.
Like, you might play games in
your youth group and that's
great, but why do you do that?
And So we really want to be, , making
choices on what is happening based
on our theology and our convictions.
, Instead of just.
Various
other reasons.
AL: Well, and, and the typically , the
number one reason that someone might do
something apart from , principles and
like, uh, yes, the theological principles,
but also theoretical principles.
We wanna be leaning on like
the best research and all
that kind of thing as well.
But typically the number one reason
someone might do something apart
from having a principled reason
is that they're going to be.
Replicating what they've done before.
You know, this is, this is what kids
club was like for me, or this is
what, what it was like when I led
kids church , at my home church.
You know, this is what youth
ministry was like when I grew up.
So, yeah, this is the way to do it.
But it sounds like Emery we're
arguing that maybe we should
do a little bit more than that.
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
I think it's also possible to do
things because we think it works.
Mm-hmm.
So if we do
make a certain choice or run a certain
activity, we'll be guaranteed to
get lots of people in the building.
Like it looks like it's effective.
It looks like it works, but
actually it might not align with
our convictions, with our theology.
And so that even though that's effective,
it might not be something we wanna
continue doing, even though it looks.
Like it works.
AL: Mm-hmm.
And actually the it might actually reveal
our principles, or our theology, you
know, so ev even though we would maybe
never articulate a particular theology
because we keep doing a certain activity
or a certain way of doing ministry.
Even though, oh my goodness, if we
articulated it, we couldn't believe that.
But, but it, it might actually sometimes
reveal what we really do believe.
Even if it's in our subconscious.
So kind of bringing that
stuff out into the light.
And you know, I have a, I have
a bit of a love hate, you know,
relationship with the word intentional.
I feel like it's a bit of a buzz word,
but I guess that, you know, it does
capture what we're kind of getting at is.
Annemarie: is.
AL: Let's do things on purpose.
, Let's not just do things 'cause that's
the way that everyone's always done it,
because you might end up doing something,
, not as good or, not as beneficial, or
even maybe sometimes not as faithful.
And so this is why we want to kind
of think about this idea of principle
to practice, you know, thinking
about theological biblical and
theoretical principles and moving from
there to a better practice in youth
and kids ministry, which is good.
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
And I think it fits well as well.
with Reflective practice.
Like, that's something a lot of people
are talking about at the moment, , where
you do spend time thinking about what
you're doing and on how effective it
is and all the different aspects of
what you're doing and evaluating it
and considering whether you wanna keep
doing that or what you wanna change.
And that's part of the whole process.
Like
As we think about our principles, we
want to just think, be thinking about
it intentionally and reflecting on our
practice as well as reflecting on our
convictions and making sure they do align
and
avoiding those problems you
were just talking about.
AL: Yeah, totally.
And so one of the ways that we kind
of, you know, we've devised of, of
moving from principle to practice is
or
I guess it's like a learning framework
or a thinking framework is we've devised
this flow of how do you get from.
Where we are in terms of what
we are thinking and thinking
about to better practice.
So let's go through that.
We call it our thinking frame.
What do we call it?
Do we call it the thinking framework?
Annemarie: Our thinking formula.
AL: formula.
Think thinking formula.
And we've obviously gotta nail it
down a little bit, but that's fine.
, In our
in our
sort of thinking framework here,
we start with biblical framework.
So Emery, what are we
talking about with that?
Annemarie: So here's where we're
thinking about what the Bible tells
us about reality and the world.
that the things that we assume as
Christians most of the time that God is
the creator, that the world is his all
those big truthful things that we can pull
out of our theology or our doctrine books.
AL: And it, I guess it's, it's not only
gonna be the big, kind of the big rocks,
but also the, the minutia as well.
The little things, it's the
assumptions that we have.
That is based on a biblical
in our theological thinking.
I mean, potentially we should
call it our kind of biblical
and theological framework,
but we all have one, right?
We all come to the table
with an existing framework.
So say we are thinking about,
this is something we've done at
House conference, for example.
Say we're thinking about
the, the doctrine of sin.
Like, we bring things to the table.
We have a biblical framework for sin.
We, we have probably multiple
thoughts about how that
will,
will play out in our lives, play out
in the lives of the young people in
front of us and that kind of thing.
So we bring that to the table.
We have an existing framework for
thinking about topics from the Bible,
but all and theological topics, but
also about, ministry and, you know, the
ways in which we do ministry as well.
. So we come with the framework
and then you're gonna introduce
new knowledge in some way.
Tell us about that.
Annemarie: Yeah, so I think new
knowledge is sort of our second box.
Like we've got that biblical information
in our first box, but the second one
is new knowledge, and that is actually
intentional as well in the sense that
we do hold the Bible as our authority.
So, as we consider new knowledge
that is considered in light
of what scripture says.
And of course it's God's
world, his creation.
And So it's not surprising that we
can find new knowledge in all sorts of
places, but we do wanna always evaluate
it in light of what the Bible says.
AL: Mm-hmm.
And some, sometimes the new knowledge
is new biblical knowledge as well.
Like, not new revelation, but like
a, a, a new, a new understanding
that we've come to as we've read the
Annemarie: Very true.
That's right.
But it could come from anywhere.
So it could be something about
child development, it could be
something about the way the brain
works or the way we learn things.
New knowledge can be any aspect and
similar to the biblical framework
that we were just talking about, it
can be both the big picture stuff.
Or it can be a particular detail
or, , , very small fact about like
the way a kid learns when they are
five years old or the growth spurt
they have and what happens in their
brain at particular and specific ages.
AL: And it might be something to do
with like the, you know, like the way
that society is kind of functioning
or that kind of thing as well.
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
Culture.
And so, and this is also where
statistics and research fits in.
So often that can be highly motivating
for people in ministry to think,
oh, the research is showing this.
and that's
great, but again, we want to keep it in
dialogue with what the Bible is telling
AL: Now you've used that word dialogue,
so I'm looking at the diagram here
and that first bot, biblical frame
box, biblical framework has an arrow
pointing to new knowledge as like we're
we're going from one to the other.
But interestingly, there's also an arrow
pointing back to the biblical framework.
So it's a bit of a back
and forth there, right?
Annemarie: Yeah, totally.
Yeah, we do wanna be looking
at them in light of each other.
Like, there are plenty of things where
new knowledge will actually, , illuminate
something that's always been in scripture,
but we have not quite seen in fresh ways.
Like the classic example would
be, , the idea that does the
world revolve around the earth or
does the sun reso revolve
around the earth or vice versa.
Whereas you know, hundreds
of years ago, they were very
convinced of one perspective.
And yet as science showed.
It was actually, well, that doesn't
actually clash with what the Bible says,
even though we had other convictions.
The Bible can still speak and is
still truthful, even though we've now.
understood
The
way
God created
it differently.
AL: in some ways we're sort of,
you know, as, as we encounter new
knowledge, it's not that we're kind
of shifting and changing biblical
truth, but we might be accommodating
within our biblical framework.
We might need to make accommodations
for that new, that new knowledge.
But always testing it
against the scriptures.
Yeah, and so actually what we're doing
as we go along is we're expanding that
biblical and theological framework.
So then we can, you know, as we enlarge
that framework, as we integrate that new
knowledge, we can then start to move.
Forward towards better practice.
So we're gonna kind of
start that journey now.
So we've had that so far.
We've got biblical framework,
biblical or the theological framework.
We've introduced new knowledge.
We're integrating that there's a back
and forth between the new, the biblical
framework and the new knowledge.
Let's move towards better practice.
What's the first stop
on the journey, Emery?
Annemarie: It's context.
AL: What do we mean by context?
Annemarie: We mean thinking
about your particular space and
where ministry is happening.
So, for me, church happens
in the southwest of Sydney.
It's a reasonably small church
where, you know, we get between
10 to 25 kids on a Sunday morning.
Like that is, those are some
of the details of my context
for Ministry to Children.
AL: there's sort of some
demographic information there.
You know, who, who's
in the room kind of thing.
There'll be cultural
demographics going on as well.
Yes.
That in your church will
be different to my church.
Which would, which will be different
to others of our colleagues', church
or other, other listeners', church.
And so some of those matter for context.
What other, what are the other
things that matter for context?
Annemarie: even
things like our spaces.
So, you know, the particular environment
and context can be things that
change or things that don't change.
So, you know, weather.
Is a classic example with kids' ministry.
If it's a stormy, windy day, the
kids are gonna behave differently.
Yeah.
To like, If it's a sunny day
or super hot or super cold.
AL: Yeah.
And if your, if your program is, is if
your ministry, you know, mostly occurs
indoors, you'll be less susceptible to
weather than if it mostly occurs outdoors.
And so there's, these are
some examples of context.
Would you say that kind of the way in
which people have done things previously
could be you know, part of this kind
of context kinda package as well?
Annemarie: Yes, that's very true.
So the things that we inherit
in our ministry areas, so things
like what kind of resources or
even the spaces that you are using.
So your spaces might not change.
The church is still the same size
with the same number of rooms, but.
Kids, church or youth ministry has
always happened in a particular space.
And so you've inherited that.
As
along with the way that
ministry happens in that
space.
Because of that environment,
AL: the language that people use to
describe ministry, to describe culture,
describe all those, all those sorts
of things will come under context.
And so we've kind of had
our biblical framework.
Enlarged enlivened.
You know, we've integrated new knowledge.
We have a kind of a bigger framework
that we're dealing with now.
We've had a look at our context, and
then we move from context to the next
stop, which is what Anne Marie, it's
Annemarie: current practice.
That one's really easy to explain.
It's just what you're doing at the moment.
Like, what is your, what are you
currently doing in your ministry?
AL: Yeah.
And so that might be to do with the, the
structures that you have, or it might be
to do with the age groups that you have,
or it might be to do with the kind of
elements of your program that you, that,
that that are already part of
things and that kind of thing.
But yeah, as Anne Marie said, it's.
It's what you do now.
Last stop though.
What is it, Emory?
Annemarie: It's better practice.
AL: Why is it not best practice?
Annemarie: Oh, that's
an excellent question.
There is in some senses
the idea of best practice.
It is whatever glorifies God
the most and is most faithful
to his word and most obedient.
And most trusting in him.
And yet it's very easy for us to
take what might be best practice in
one context and then go, this should
happen everywhere and everyone should
be doing all exactly the same thing.
And I don't think that's true.
So I don't think that, . I.
Being obedient, , and faithful and
teaching God's word clearly is going
to look the same in different contexts.
That's why we have that context box,
because it's gonna look different
if you are teaching five kids or
five youth, to, if you are teaching
a hundred, the way that you present
and interact, the strategies that
you use, all of those things will
change, , according to your context.
Mm-hmm.
AL: So it's I guess another way to kind of
describe that better practice box might be
best practice right now in your context.
Annemarie: Yes.
But we are using a shortened version.
Yeah,
AL: absolutely.
Alright, so I mean, this is, this
is the, the thinking framework
that we kind of, we, we, we
think, think about or that we use.
And we, just to recap that we start
with the biblical theological framework.
We add new knowledge, what,
wherever that might come from.
And we're having a back and forth with
the biblical data and the new knowledge,
and we're making accommodations and
we're integrating that knowledge.
we're
testing it all against scripture so
that we have a more faithful, more, more
robust biblical and theological framework.
And once we've kind of established that
we've integrated the new knowledge,
then we start to think about the
context that we're in, the things
that we do in ministry at this point
in time, or what the current practice
in ministry is so that we might move
towards practice that is better.
By better we mean the best thing for your
context at this particular point in time.
Annemarie: Yeah, That's right.
And I, I guess part of the
assumptions behind this is the idea
that we always want to be growing.
Mm-hmm.
We always want to be moving forward
because as disciples ourselves, we
are growing and hopefully reflecting
Christ more clearly and knowing
him better and loving him more.
And so our practice is similarly
improving because it is.
The best thing to be doing.
Like, if I can convince you all kids in
youth ministry, it's the place to be.
Because we can tell the next
generation, and we, this is
such a great way to serve Jesus.
So we wanna do it as best we can.
AL: Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
And even if you were just happy to
kind of be doing decent ministry all
the time and not kind of striving
for perfection or like, you know, and
that's not what you say Mary, but like,
even if you weren't kind of Absolutely
driving to improve all the time.
Even if that was the case, , the
world around you will be changing.
And so it is important to continually
be assessing your ministry and
thinking about is this what is
needed at this point in time?
Because, you know, I mean, like
we've just done an episode of, uh,
the Effective Ministry podcast on
the social media band just before
that happened, that was not a thing.
A year or two ago, but we need to
consider , what changes in our ministry
we need to be thinking through.
And we wanna be doing that from a place
of principle so we can move through to
effective practice.
Annemarie: So our, what
do we do with our thinking
Framework?
AL: Yeah.
Well I think, we wanna be doing
with this, because we're gonna
be using this thinking framework.
We, , on various different things.
So like I said before, it might be
on a particular topic, you know,
on eschatology or on, you know, the
incarnation or on Atonement or on
the book of James or whatever it is.
Or we might be using it to
think through particular issues.
So what do I think about, you know,
engaging teaching or what do I think
about age and gender breakups , for
discussion groups or whatever it is?
And so as we kind of do this piecemeal,
we use this thinking framework along
the way, what we're actually doing as
we do do this, you know, one thing.
Then the next, then the next topic
by topic, by topic is we're actually
developing a ministry philosophy.
And so that's, that's kind of
what we're doing, which, you
know, a ministry philosophy.
Is in many ways it's a set of
guiding principles, like a statement
of our guiding principles that
drive ministry in our context.
And so, you know, it's a movement from
principles then the things that you
believe to be true in regard to ministry
through your context as we've talked
about with the, the thinking framework.
Things that are specific to your ministry
to practice and how you'll go about
ministry in your specific context.
And so it really is essential that
we're able to connect the practice of
our ministry to articulate principles
and where they're actually assumed
then to articulate those principles.
And so it is essential that
our ministry practice is
consistent with our principles.
Annemarie: Yeah, That's right.
And I think you said the word
articulate there, and I think
that's really important.
Like The ministry philosophy
is an articulation.
So that when somebody says, oh, why
do you do things that way, you're able
to say, not just, oh, we always have
done them, or Oh gosh, I don't know.
Or because it works you can actually
go back to where it came from.
And often your principles like
all the various statements
that make up your philosophy.
They are summaries of.
Of your theological convictions and your
convictions in light of new knowledge
and context and all those things.
AL: Yeah.
And so as we develop a ministry
philosophy that is kind of a, like
a, a conglomeration of all of the
different kind of principles that we are
developing using our thinking framework.
Mm.
And so, you know, as we think about.
Age and gender discussion groups.
We, we, you know, we're going
to come up with a principle.
We're going to, you know, think
about things that are true and we're
gonna move through to practice.
And as we kind of think about all of
those different parts, they go together.
To make a ministry philosophy.
Which yeah, as as, as we talked about
a moment ago, it drives our ministry.
We're able to defend our ministry.
We're able to explain why we do things
a certain way and not another way.
And, you know, not this way, not this
way, but this way we're able to have
really good, robust discussions with
our ministry teams so that we can
move forward in the best way possible.
Annemarie: Yeah, and that's
like building a ministry
philosophy is something that we.
focus
on, particularly in the course.
Mm-hmm.
So we're working towards, across the
year or across the semester being
able to put together particularly the
principles that shape our own ministry.
So there are of course, some,
some things that everyone would
agree on in all of our churches.
But then there are also particular
areas where the way you do ministry
is different to the way I do ministry.
AL: So like what?
That's really salient point.
Annemarie.
Like what are some of the things that
everyone agrees on in our context?
Annemarie: Well, I very much hope and
do believe that like things like the
importance of teaching God's word.
And of having God's word central
to our teaching and to our
discipling ministry programs,
that's something that is happening
in every church that we work with.
AL: Yeah.
And so, , that's an essential principle
that we'll be driving our ministry
and that's like a big ticket item.
And it's probably not super
contestable, at least.
For the people that are kind of driving
the ministry, or at least the people that
are sort of in leadership in the ministry.
There might be sort of rumblings,
sort of, amongst congregation.
Like people have, you know,
everybody's welcome to church no
matter what your theology of scripture.
And so, but it's one of those things
that probably, you know it's worth
articulating, but it might not make
much difference in the ministry for
you to articulate it, even though it
absolutely does drive your ministry.
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
And I think this is where our
seven principles sits really.
So our team has developed the
seven principles for effective
youth and children's ministry.
And, and most of these would
sit in that kind of space.
Like there are one or two that are
potentially a little bit contentious.
But the first one about word centered
relational discipleship, like
that is a general principle that.
Every church in within our
circles would agree with.
AL: Yeah.
And I mean, just to run through, like,
just to kind of help give some examples
that, that, the first one was word,
word, word based relational discipleship.
Second one is, you know, the
importance of parent partnership and
so, you know, partnering with the
home because, you know, parents are
the primary place of discipleship.
The third one.
Is integrating young people
into the household of God.
So the importance of
intergenerational discipleship.
The fourth one is to do with mission.
So making sure that young, you know,
that young people are coming to
faith, not just being not just the
ones that are being nurtured in faith
because they already have faith.
So we, you know, the priority of mission.
The fifth one is, oh, man.
Oh, collaboration,
Annemarie: is a little
bit more contentious.
There are some churches that don't
think they need to collaborate
with other churches, whereas we
think that's a valuable thing
for fostering effective ministry.
AL: Yeah.
Number six is about training.
So making sure leadership teams are well
equipped for the task that they that
they're, that they're doing in ministry.
And then the last one
Annemarie: is emotionally healthy
and spiritually growing leaders.
So again, there's not many people
that wouldn't agree with that.
but more about how you might
implement that principle.
AL: And that's, that, I guess that's
specifically to do with vocational yeah.
Vocational leaders more
than like volunteer leaders.
Yeah.
So those are the side, those are like,
and, and as you're saying, Emery, they
operate at kind of a, a high level.
They're, they're the things that
maybe are true of lots of different
churches, not necessarily dependent
on context to the same degree
as some of the other principles
that we might be thinking about.
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
And I mean, to take a step
back for a minute they are
principles, so they aren't.
Directly our theology, but
there's summaries of our theology.
'Cause that's really what a principle is.
How might you define it besides that?
AL: I think it's, it would be
something along the lines of, it's
a, it's a, a statement of truth
that drives or animates ministry.
And so, you know, where something is,
you know, a thing that is a, that is
true, that is relevant to the ministry
Specifically that is gonna make an impact
in the way in which you do ministry.
So a a, you know, a, a good
example might be young people
are of great value in God's eyes.
Or it might be something
like young people are
Part of the body of Christ.
And so those two things, they're
gonna actually change the
way in which you do ministry.
If you don't think that they're
part of the body of Christ, you know
that they need to be baptized or
something before you know, , at a
later stage, then that will impact
the way in which you do ministry and
the way that you view young people.
And so you know whether or not
you believe those things or not,
you know, that's not the point.
The point is articulating those
things will actually change the
way in which you do ministry.
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
And it highlights, I think you can
have principles at different levels.
So like we were saying, the
seven principles is for.
fairly high level.
but you
can have more specific ones.
Like those examples about baptism
and convictions about how children
fit in the church are moving to a
little bit more of a specific level
and you can get even more specific.
Yeah.
Can you think of an example
AL: of more specific ones?
Yeah.
Hmm.
Good question.
Oh, here's one.
Young people
try on
many aspects of identity
during their teenage years.
Yeah.
That that's pretty specific.
I, I guess it's addressing
the identity stuff.
But it's yeah, it's something that
developmental psychology would kind of.
Yeah, I guess it's para, it's not
paraphrased, but it's a summary of
what we learn from developmental
psychology, James, Marcia, Eric
Erickson, those kinds of things.
And they're contested, like those that
it's, it's not that we take them, you
know, without thinking about them.
But it's a bit of a summary of the,
the experience of being a young person.
And so that will.
Impact on the way that you do
ministry with young people.
So for example, if someone comes,
and this has happened to me someone
comes to you and say, oh, Al
i've been looking into satanism,
and you just kind of go,
oh, right.
And so what I, what, what happens in
my mind is I freak out, but actually.
If I remember that young people try
on many aspects of identity during
their teenage years, I'm able to
go, ah, tell me more about that.
And you know, the way in which I
respond is directly impacted by
the principle that I hold, that I
know from developmental psychology.
Annemarie: So I think that's
actually a great example.
Because you can see the thinking our
thinking framework in action there.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, you've got your own.
Like assumptions underlying it
about the value of the young
person and your role as a leader.
Like they might fit into
the biblical framework box.
But then this new knowledge about
from psychology and developmental
science and all those kinds of
areas has integrated into that.
It's in the context of this specific
conversation and where you might be
freaking out on the inside or maybe
freaked
out in
past interactions.
You are now in a place where
you can, again, take a breath,
Be a calm and non-anxious
presence for that kid.
And so he or she knows
that they can be safe.
In coming back to you and going,
you know what, I've changed my mind.
That was dumb.
Which we very much hope they did,
AL: and they did.
Annemarie: Excellent.
AL: Yeah, absolutely.
So, I mean, should we have a
chat about how you might go
about building principles?
Let's do that.
Yeah.
So, I mean, one of the things
that's interesting is there's no,
there's no right or wrong way.
But one of the ways, and we think the
way ways we think about it in, in our
course is that because we consider
them to be truth statements or things
that are true, we really try to make
sure that they're built that way.
And so my little exercise that I
make people do is that I say you
have to be able to put the phrase,
it is true that in front of it.
Right.
Okay.
So, you know, a lot of the time
people might say, you know, and,
and people get pretty excited about
intergenerational ministry in our course.
And also, you know, if you wanted
to do the intergenerational
ministry course at Youth West
College, you could do that as well.
But people get excited about that.
And so sometimes they're like, oh,
you know, my ministry principle
is intergenerational ministry.
And I, I always come back at them, I say.
It is true that intergenerational
ministry question mark because it's not
a truth statement, it's just a heading.
And so, I want people to work harder and
actually work at articulating something
that makes sense in and of itself, right?
So, Emery, just thinking about
intergenerational ministry, you
know, obviously it is true that
intergenerational ministry, that's not
a sentence, it doesn't make sense, but
what might be a principle that we could
use when it comes to intergenerational
ministry that works with the It is true.
That kind of test.
Sure.
Annemarie: Oh, Well, I might be
able to give you one, but I'm
not sure if it'll pass the test.
Well,
AL: we'll see how we go.
Annemarie: maybe We can shape it.
So you could say something again, it's
taking intergenerational ministry,
but then refining it a little bit.
So which aspect of that, like
what are we actually talking about
'cause can, people can refer, use that
term to refer to lots of different things,
AL: which is exactly what
this process helps us to do.
Refine it, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Annemarie: Yeah.
So we could say, when young
people have warm intergenerational
relationships, they are more
likely to persevere in their faith.
Yeah.
So that's a true
AL: Let's test it.
It is true that when young people have,
what is it, warm, intergenerational
relationships, they're more
likely to per persevere in faith.
Annemarie: Oh, so it does work.
AL: It does work.
Okay.
And you could refine that further.
You could say something like.
It is true that warm intergenerational
relationships enable or
help young people to persevere in faith.
Annemarie: Yes.
AL: That might be a further refinement
saying the same thing, but in less words.
But the, the idea though is that
it works as a truth statement.
Annemarie: And
AL: That's good because . One of the
reasons that we work so hard at making
them truth statements is because we
actually want to make sure that we
distinguish between the true thing
and the practice that comes from it.
Annemarie: Mm-hmm.
yes.
That's right.
So we wanna keep the principle.
Separate from the practice.
Yeah.
Because it will again, look
different in each context.
Yeah.
So the principle should always be true.
Mm-hmm.
Whereas how it is played out
in different contexts will be
AL: Yeah.
Annemarie: So
Al, I think you've got a couple of tests.
That we can apply as we sort
of arti begin to articulate and
put together our principles.
Tell us about those.
AL: Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
So, so when we when we come up with
a principle, it's gonna be, you
know, you, you don't wanna state
it, it is true that dot, dot dot.
But you've, it's able to
kind of pass that test.
There's a couple of other
tests that we sort of.
Often use the first one
is, is it too broad?
Okay.
So is it such a big topic that it's
difficult to be specific about what
difference it would make in your ministry?
An example of that might be
all people are valued by God.
Well, okay, that's that's
true, but that's gonna be
applicable to every setting.
Both within and inside
and outside the church.
And so how might you make it more specific
such that it's gonna make a difference
in youth and children's ministry?
It might be something like this, children
are of immense value to God, or even
children are of great value to God, and
an integral part of the body of Christ.
Okay, that's sharpening it
just a little bit further.
That's the first test.
Is it too broad and you want it to
be narrow enough that it's gonna
make a difference in your ministry?
Second one is, is it too narrow?
Okay.
So would you be willing to devote
a whole strategy to this principle?
You know, as you, as you do your strategic
planning in in ministry, you're gonna
devote a whole strategy to this principle.
So, is it saying basically the same
thing as other principles you've stated?
So for example, children can
encourage others, is very specific.
Okay.
You know the fact that
children can encourage others,
that's a very specific, that's okay.
Are we gonna devote a whole strategy
to children encouraging others?
Well, maybe, but maybe not.
Every child has the gift of encouragement.
Okay, so it's a little bit too specific.
So perhaps it would be better to come
under a broader principle, like children
are able to make valuable contributions to
the building up of the church, and that's
allowing for all kinds of different gifts.
But still having that emphasis on
the children's capacity or the chi,
you know, the god-given capacity
that God has given to children to
be able to, you know, edify others.
Annemarie: Yeah, that's really helpful.
So we wanna avoid being too broad,
like too big and too general.
But then we also wanna
avoid being too narrow.
So,
I think that was a really good
example, like we want to be able
to acknowledge children's valuable
contributions but allowing that to.
Differ in terms of the number of kids you
have, the type, like the personalities
of the people in front of you and the
context not making it so specific that
you actually find it hard to apply.
And for it to influence your practice.
What are the other tests?
AL: Next one is, or the third one is
sort of the, the question, does the
principle help you avoid possible risks?
So, you know, an example,
a statement about the authority
of scripture relative to other
sources of truth may help
you avoid potential pitfalls.
Depending on the context.
So if you are in a context where
actually it is totally accepted that
you know that scripture is the source
of authority when it comes to God's
mind, if that's not contested well
then maybe it's something that you.
That might not be as relevant to
in your context, that it won't
change your ministry very much.
But it might be that in your
specific context, it is challenged
and so it's really worth
articulating that particular thing.
Now sometimes things are so
important and arguably this is one.
That you've gotta articulate
them regardless of whether
they're contested or not.
And you know, like, the authority of
scripture might be one of those things.
Annemarie: That's very true though.
And I think, I mean, the benefit of
thinking through
your principles outside the course is
that it doesn't matter how many you have.
so you
don't have to have seven,
you don't have to have three.
If you are in the course, then there'll
be a word limit on your assessment.
Mm-hmm.
And so we do encourage you to think
about the ones that are specific
to your particular context and the
things that make you different from
the student sitting next to you.
But
you don't actually have to have a limit.
And one of the beautiful things about
developing a ministry philosophy, like
a, a collection of, of your principles.
Is
that you can keep refining it.
So as you grow, as you read more books,
as you interact with more people, as
you gain more experience, hopefully
your ministry philosophy is becoming
more
refined, more clear.
A better reflection of what you believe.
More
AL: robust mo More coherent.
Yeah.
Fuller.
Yeah, absolutely.
And just thinking as well about, you
know, that the, the question of something
like the authority of scripture, it
might actually be that it doesn't make
it into your ministry philosophy because
it already exists in a statement of faith
or a set of principles or values that
your church has already articulated.
Annemarie: Good point.
AL: And so, you know, and actually
a lot of those things that will sit
in the, you know, church's belief
statement, they also are principles,
but they're just very, very high level
principles that actually animate or
drive everything about church life.
And so as you kind of, I guess we're
talking, talked about levels, like,
as you sort of jump down levels to
being more specific, you don't wanna
go too specific where you end up with,
you know, like a principle about.
You know, the importance tea?
Yeah.
Or the, or the importance of, you
know, neat clothing or something.
I don't know.
You might have ministry practices
associated with morning tea and
neat clothing, but to devote a
principle to them is probably
overkill, I would've thought.
Annemarie: And that actually leads
us nicely to the the force test.
Because like some of those things that
you just mentioned aren't particularly
applicable to kids or youth ministry.
AL: Mm-hmm.
Combing, like combing your hair.
Yes.
I mean, I can imagine a lot of
youth that might need to comb their
hair for the sake of the gospel.
We'll see.
But no, yeah, that's right.
But yeah, that's right.
So, you know, the fourth test is
can you apply the principle, the
youth and children's ministry?
And if you can't, it's a
very, it's likely a very true.
Irrelevant principle.
And so if it's hard to, to apply
specifically to your youth or
children's ministry, it may be that it's
either too broad or it's too narrow.
And so, I mean, those are the main
tests that we kind of think about.
A couple of other things that we think
about when we when we are developing
principles is avoiding should language.
Why do we wanna avoid should language,
what's an example of a
sh a should principle?
You know,
Annemarie: leaders should
always be trained in first aid.
AL: Yeah.
Or even leaders should
be trained in anything
in exegesis.
Yes.
That's a pretty good, that's a
pretty good thing to do, right?
Yes.
Why do we avoid the, the should
or, you know, the should?
Annemarie: language?
Well, I think there's a few reasons,
but the two that spring to mind
firth like should is guilt language.
But we're setting up laws
and rules that are not.
AL: not,
Annemarie: We have no
right to put in place.
So even though as a ministry leader,
an employed ministry leader, for
some of us there is a degree of
responsibility to oversee ministry wisely.
We don't really want to be setting
up rules that sort of define
somebody's faith and service.
In ways that Jesus hasn't done.
AL: Mm.
And I think also, I mean, related
to that the, the should language
drives us towards practice.
And the whole point of articulating
the principle is that we we're, we're
stating a, a true thing, not setting
up a, a practice that must be followed.
And so that, you know, like all
leaders should be trained in exegesis.
Well, that's really just a practice.
Okay, so why not say something more
like, you know, A Leader's capacity
to read and understand and apply
the Bible is vital to ministry.
Effectiveness or something like that.
The practice then being that all
leaders are trained in exegesis.
Yeah.
So avoiding the should language just
kind of ensures that we stick to the
true thing, not the practice that
we're actually trying to justify.
Annemarie: Yeah.
And that again, that
it
also impacts our practice
in terms of context.
So if your context is different
the type of exegesis training,
even if it's technically exegesis
training or something else.
Is gonna look different.
And so you yeah, you don't wanna
lock yourself into something that's
not actually gonna be helpful
because
it isn't true in every context.
Yeah.
AL: And, and you know, I can imagine a, a
youth ministry that's run by exclusively
fourth year SNBC or more college.
Students will perhaps their training
in exegesis is not required because
they've just been doing that.
And so the context, again, it's not
true in every context, which I think
is a really helpful thing to point out.
Annemarie: that's right.
AL: that's right.
Annemarie: Is
AL: anything else you wanna say?
I
Annemarie: I don't think so.
I think it's been helpful to, yeah, think
about moving from principle to practice
and why we think that's important.
And what a ministry philosophy looks like.
I really like our thinking formula.
I hope it's helpful to people because
yeah, it's really just a way of capturing
the process which is messy and changeable.
for some of us it will be quick, and
others it'll be slow and that's all fine.
But
it's, I guess just a way of
visualizing and articulating
what's hopefully happening.
Through the course, but also for,
for
all of us as we think about ministry as
we listen to podcasts, as we read books.
And as we let that inform
what we do week to week.
AL: Yeah.
And that like, we're always
taking in new knowledge.
And so to just have a process to kind
of, integrate that knowledge, whether
that looks like total rejection or
accommodation or changing or tweaking
or just cherry picking or whatever it
is it's a really helpful thing to have.
Emery, if there was one last thing.
Annemarie: that,
AL: You know, whether it's people in the
course or whether it's just listeners
out there in podcast land that you,
you know, you, you want them to take
away from this, what would it be?
Annemarie: I think it would be around
like, letting our theology drive
our,
AL: our,
Annemarie: our practice.
So we, we just really want our
ministry practice, like the things
that we do, the things that we
say, the things we prioritize.
To be
intentional
choices because of what Jesus says in the
Bible, because of what God has revealed.
Like it, it it must come from that place.
AL: Mm, love it.
Well, thanks Emory.
Good times, good chats and
yeah, looking forward to more.
Great.
Annemarie: Bye.