The Beer:30 Live Show!

Does Karl Rove Eat Hummus?

Show Notes

Does Karl Rove Eat Hummus?

What is The Beer:30 Live Show!?

Home of the original Beer:30 Live podcast from Portland, Oregon. The show ran from 2006 to 2009.

Jamie:

You're cute music. Music is good? I listened to

Jamie:

the show.

Jamie:

Did I tell you that? Yeah. I did. I did. I

Mary:

missed you. Yeah. Welcome to beer 30 live everybody.

Pete:

Hey. Hi. Hi. I'm Pete.

Mary:

Hi, Pete.

Pete:

Hi. Hi, Mary. And Jamie. Hi. Welcome.

Pete:

Welcome to the show. You feeling okay, dude? I'm feeling awesome. Are

Jamie:

you? What?

Pete:

I am No. I'm feeling awesome. I mean that. I, I'm I was channeling my inner, my inner South Carolina. You're a liar.

Pete:

You're a liar.

Jamie:

Did he say you're a liar or just liar?

Pete:

Or you lie.

Mary:

You lie. I thought it was you lie.

Pete:

You lie. Maybe that was it. Maybe it

Jamie:

was you lie. Over the top, man. Over the top. Very disrespectful.

Mary:

Yep.

Pete:

That was I've have you I mean, is this unprecedented a little bit? I am. Do you remember the last time that you heard this not in British parliament?

Mary:

Right. No. I think it's it's out of the norm.

Pete:

Out of the norm. Well, not out of the norm if you judge the norm by our town halls over the last

Mary:

Well month. Yeah. But it's not really the

Jamie:

Typically, the president gets a certain amount of deference when he speaks.

Pete:

I see. Amount?

Mary:

Yeah. But I even think really when you watch a lot of the debates on the house, you know, when they're debating stuff too, they Yeah.

Jamie:

They're pretty quiet.

Mary:

You know, they may have some debate, but you don't tend to have people yelling out from the audience, call it naming or Right.

Jamie:

Lie or

Mary:

You lie. The things.

Jamie:

Well, they don't even really debate. They just you you give a speech Yeah. And then I give a speech. Exactly. And and so it's a serial set of speeches

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And they call that a debate. There's no

Jamie:

There's no fuel

Jamie:

line. Debate. Yeah. It's not like used to where you go outside with a gun and you would debate it and then the winner would come back in.

Mary:

Or like in the in the duel?

Jamie:

Are we yeah. When was the last time we had a duel?

Mary:

Down and dirty.

Jamie:

You know,

Jamie:

that would be an interesting question to, put up on the website. When the last time a a dispute was settled in congress

Pete:

With a gun.

Jamie:

With a gun. Oh, we could

Pete:

we should find that out. That would be because we should recommend that to old Joel Wilson because he seems to be wanting to talk about things like that.

Jamie:

So Yeah. So, So in case you missed it. Right? We're talking about Obama's speech on health care, which was last night. And Joe Wilson standing up about 2 thirds of way through.

Jamie:

And there was a particular point about whether the health care health care bill that that Obama was espousing will cover illegal immigrants. And Obama's saying no, and Joe obviously had a different opinion because his comment was you're a liar on national TV and for everybody.

Pete:

But here's my joint session of congress Did

Jamie:

you see the look Obama gave him?

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Yeah. It was pretty it was pretty priceless. It was like Yeah. Excuse me? Really?

Mary:

But, yeah, he completely kept school.

Jamie:

He did, but man, if looks could kill.

Mary:

Nancy Pelosi was Pelosi was pissed.

Jamie:

Was she? Oh, yeah.

Mary:

She's one. And she was like, who said it? And I don't know if you she went and got the seating chart. She pulled it down into

Jamie:

a bird. Wow. Figure out

Jamie:

who it was.

Mary:

To see who it was that said it.

Pete:

No. She well, she pulled out the spanking stick that she carries around.

Jamie:

You know.

Jamie:

You know. Well, certainly,

Mary:

there are not thing with the document they kept holding up, the Republicans. Did you see those things? No. There'd be they panned them and they'd be like

Jamie:

Oh, I read about that. I don't know. What was that? Yeah. So there was a certain amount of argument that the the Republicans haven't brought forth any ideas or any health care bills of their own.

Jamie:

So they were holding up the health care bills. It says we have proposed their ideas. Yeah. Exactly.

Mary:

The same old ones that we've had every time we've had a health care

Jamie:

debate in the

Mary:

presidential election.

Jamie:

I

Jamie:

mean, there's a lot of stories out that Obama really hasn't asked republic Republicans to be involved with the process and hasn't invited them up in several months. Yeah. So it's like April or something like that.

Jamie:

So it's both

Mary:

That's no way. Absolutely.

Jamie:

They have.

Mary:

At the table in August when they were still trying to tell when Grassley said that. That he was they were at the table and that that he snowed them along until the August break acting like they were bipartisan.

Jamie:

Yeah. I don't know.

Mary:

And there's in these bills that are out there, there are a

Jamie:

ton of provisions in there. So you can't I agree. I agree.

Mary:

Now they run around and deny they even did it, but that's what they do. They just full face lie. That's the way they do things.

Jamie:

Well

Mary:

Even though their names attached to it or whatever Yeah.

Jamie:

The Democrats do the same thing. It just depends who's in power. Right? I mean, it's again Come on.

Mary:

You I I when have you ever had a democrat when somebody said, well, so and so this was his idea to put this in the bill and a democrat comes forward and says that's a complete and total lie when it's the complete and total truth. What what does that have?

Jamie:

I don't know. I'd have to I'd have to figure out an example. I don't know. Yeah. I I I just think it's easy to pick on Republicans now as being the obstructionist when when the table is turned the other way it happens just as equally as much.

Mary:

Oh, now I think

Jamie:

the Republicans are on the wrong side of the health care debate,

Mary:

quite frankly. Yeah. You're you're but so

Jamie:

you're telling me. Trying to say is is it tends to be the party who's out of power, who essentially is trying to figure out how to get back into power.

Mary:

So how much were the Democrats obstructionist when Bush was in office?

Jamie:

A lot.

Mary:

Barely. They they did everything that guy wanted which pissed off most liberals and most

Pete:

Well, because

Jamie:

they had no choice. I mean, they essentially got rolled over on because they had no votes.

Mary:

Well, but they also tried on some things and did good faith on different appointments and things like that.

Jamie:

Come on.

Pete:

To try and I think the best problem with the Democrats during Bush was that they were disorganized and had no platform. I mean, that that was the that's why they got rolled

Mary:

over on. But they were not obstruction.

Pete:

They were idiots.

Mary:

You have to use them a bull. Half of his I mean, almost what? What percentage of his judge nominations went

Pete:

through with absolutely no? No exact

Mary:

From the Democrats. Give me a break. And if, you know, and I I I would like to believe this, and I I think that, you know, with a lot of the people in the Democratic party and, you know, and I'm gonna point towards progressive of liberals who've been fighting for health care. Not the blue dogs, not the centrist dems that are really dinos. Okay?

Mary:

They're dems in name only. Right? But so

Jamie:

I see.

Pete:

That was that was a nice little acronym. Just nice. Yeah.

Mary:

I didn't make

Jamie:

it up. Yeah.

Pete:

Still was very that was very nice.

Mary:

But if in if Bush have come out and said we've got a health care crisis and we need to fix it, I guarantee that the majority of Democrats would have been at the table saying, let's do it. Yeah. I wouldn't do that. Sad and been obstructionist because it was your idea.

Jamie:

Yeah. No. I I don't think

Mary:

said we agree. We We've been screaming about this for 25

Jamie:

My only point earlier was that it's easy to demagogue the party that's out of powers to be an obstructionist because that's what the party of our out of power does. And their job is to figure out how to get back into the Well, that's wrong.

Mary:

That that's not how the system should be.

Jamie:

I don't think that's that way either. I mean, I I think it should be. How do we move forward together? And listening to Obama's speech, I know he's taken a lot of hits from right and left because he probably wasn't too liberal in his speech, and he wasn't too conservative in his speech. I think he he does what he he probably does the best, which is strike a tone somewhere down the middle because I think

Pete:

that's Okay. So what did you what did you think overall of the of the speech? I mean, what where'd you how did it hit you? The policy I mean, he laid out you can't say he wasn't specific. He laid out some very key points.

Jamie:

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't the policy speech though. I mean, it it was if you break it up into its parts, we need health care reform. Yes. Here is what it's happening if we don't do it.

Mary:

Here's how it's talking

Jamie:

about financial

Mary:

crisis, which Americans don't understand.

Jamie:

Here's what I think we should do, and here are some of the features that are gonna come out of it. You know, so you kind of laid it out in 4 or 5 main chunks, which made a lot of sense. I think it came across well. I think he's taking potshots from the left because he didn't come right out and say we're going to have a Medicare type system for

Mary:

all But here yes.

Jamie:

People. But that's just not gonna get through.

Mary:

But here's my problem too, Jamie. There's nothing about caps on premiums. So you know what these leeches are gonna do when they get all these people that can come and buy their plans, and they they can't deny you because of preexisting, and they can't but what? There's nothing about the premiums. Right.

Mary:

So they may say, sure. Sure, Pete. You can have insurance with us, and we won't hold some, you know, your past health stuff. But your premium's $25100.

Jamie:

Well, that certainly has been a debate.

Mary:

So you're welcome to come on board

Jamie:

if you

Mary:

can pay $25100 a month.

Jamie:

Some states actually have a cap on premiums where you can't

Pete:

charge more than soda.

Jamie:

No. Oregon. Oregon has a cap. Yeah.

Mary:

See, I've learned that.

Pete:

Where you

Jamie:

can't charge more than x amount than you charge your best folks. Right? And the idea is is because you don't wanna start charging people who are older, who are gonna use more services Right. 20 times more than you're gonna charge.

Mary:

In child barriers.

Jamie:

Exactly. So there are there are caps. And I know that has been part of the discussion of where the cap is at. I know that the health care industry has asked for the cap to be higher like 5x6x where people like triple a and different things are are no. Not triple a, but, AMA.

Jamie:

AMA have come back and said, well, it should be 2x or 3 x or something like that. So I think that's gonna be a part of it. It wasn't during the speech last night, but I know it's been debated.

Mary:

Oh, I think that's the gift to them.

Jamie:

But but I I I think that he did a good job, though, at the original question of kind of doing the center with he wants these exchanges, which makes sense because, you know, being in a state where you can't get any other options is pretty ridiculous.

Mary:

It's like Alabama.

Jamie:

Yeah. Good

Mary:

god. They only

Jamie:

have one.

Jamie:

I mean, it's Alabama. You know? But probably have any listeners there, so it doesn't matter. But Well No. Well, not anymore.

Jamie:

Not anymore. No. But the point is is, yeah. So having an exchange makes a lot of sense. Having maybe some kind of low cost option that is the bottom of the barrel for people who who can't afford a better option.

Pete:

This is COBRA, but affordable.

Jamie:

Yeah. Right. For people who change jobs. He struck a pretty, you know, moderate tone, in my opinion.

Mary:

I think he I think he struck people's emotions. I mean, I know at the end, I was emotional. Because what, you know, that's he started to finally say, this is about our character. This is a moral issue. And and and and in the really, in listening to just even the two stories that told of people of how, you know, or nobody should be able to look at their spouse or their child and say, I know you need that, but I daddy can't afford it.

Mary:

Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, I mean, what kind of person are you to sit and hear a story like that and not be moved by it and not say, you know, there is something fundamentally wrong with that. So I think for for some, it was very, emotional. I was I was back a little bit inspired.

Mary:

I was a little bit back on board with him, not fully, but

Jamie:

Well, because you want universal health care for everybody.

Mary:

I want I want single payer. I want Medicare for all. And if you want it, great. Buy in and do it. And if you don't, stay with your private insurance.

Jamie:

And I I think that would be nice. I just don't think there one, I don't think that the American public can look at that and say we can afford it. I think that's part of the big challenge. Where I've said for months or a couple months now where he made a mistake was the cost issue has became so high. So when you're looking at a large cost in an era where, you know, we have this huge unemployment rate in the United States and and and again, you guys beat me up over this couple weeks ago, but economists are starting to say that it looks like the recession is over.

Jamie:

By by most indications, it seems to be, you know, lessening up when we've reached the tail end. But that doesn't mean that we as as citizens and job owners, we don't feel it still, and it's gonna take us years to recover.

Mary:

So all those those same people were also people saying we're not in a recession. Yeah. We're not. Again, more and more, and I also said that it You know, buy all that crap.

Jamie:

But my point was is too much of the debate, I think, became a cost issue in terms of what it's going to cost us and not much about what it's going to save us,

Pete:

not much about Well, you know, that's a really good point because that's the whole point of insurance. Amount.

Jamie:

Right. We ain't paying that.

Pete:

It's the whole point of insurance regulation is to save us Money. Money.

Jamie:

That's the goal.

Pete:

That's the goal. Not how much it's gonna cost to implement the plan. And that's that's I think I think you're exactly right. I think that's been completely lost

Jamie:

in this discussion.

Pete:

Yep. And I don't think he regained it any any regain any ground on that in the speech.

Jamie:

Well, no. Because what what he did talk about was the fact that, well, it's not going to add to the deficit, but it is going to cost $900,000,000,000. Right? So what that means is, and what he didn't talk about is, taxes go up for some people. So For the top 10%.

Jamie:

There there is a certain amount this is going to cost money. And so it's not clear to me why we're paying $900,000,000,000 for this over 10 years. Why is it costing so much money? I I don't know.

Pete:

You know, I I the the thing that I kept thinking about is what's it gonna do to my family immediately? So I I know that Well, my health

Mary:

care premiums are going up. Yeah. A lot. Up 30% from Blue Cross Blue Shield on all 3, and then they've raising the rates on Marylhurst. So that's what's happening.

Pete:

Our premiums are declining. But that that's not that's wasn't the question. Question is what's what's the new policy? How is it gonna affect me? I know there's all Today?

Pete:

Sort of. It's not at

Jamie:

all.

Pete:

Hang on. There are all sorts of great things that are coming in in 4 years. Which is 4 years. Things come out. So my, my premiums just went up almost $1,000 a month for my family.

Pete:

Right? When I started with the program to

Mary:

a 1,000 or you you had a $1,000 increase?

Pete:

No. No. No. No. It went up to almost a 1,000 for the family.

Pete:

And so we when we started, it was 600. So in about 2 years, it's gone up almost $400.

Mary:

Because you had to pay for all their marketing for the last month with their

Pete:

what Yeah. And be well, and because I I got 1 year older because I changed age brackets in there somewhere, so

Jamie:

it went up.

Pete:

And then this year, they say their costs have gone up. I'm sure costs have gone up. That's a big problem. What does this do for those increases? You know how much I would say increase my taxes.

Pete:

There's no way they're gonna increase my taxes $800 a month to, you know, to pay for my share of a of a single payer health plan.

Jamie:

Do you

Pete:

see what I'm saying?

Jamie:

Yeah. I I mean, in the short term, I don't think it has anything. Of course, the goal is to be able to rein in health care costs. So that's one of the things that I think worries Americans and it worries me. Since when is the government been very good at rein in health care costs?

Jamie:

I mean, for example

Mary:

But that's never been their job.

Jamie:

Well, for example, let's let's Medicare can't even negotiate prices on

Jamie:

Drugs.

Jamie:

On drugs, which is stupid.

Mary:

Right. That's Medicare Part d. K.

Jamie:

Why can't they do that?

Mary:

Because the republic didn't wanna go

Jamie:

about it.

Mary:

That was a huge suspicious thing. It could be

Jamie:

done that. The government doesn't want that. No. They don't want it. But my point is is is when the when the government says I'm here to help save you money, I'm here to help you or whatever, people get a little afraid.

Jamie:

So the idea, of course, is to lower your cost, but I I struggle.

Mary:

I but the one thing How is it that it's possible to

Pete:

to sit here and say with little data. Right? I I don't know how the government's gonna do this. All I know is Yeah.

Jamie:

I don't know.

Mary:

I don't know.

Jamie:

I don't

Mary:

know when you're in

Jamie:

Medicaid with

Pete:

the 2% over here. Really like. Now wait. How is it possible to sit here and say, I don't trust the government when I sure as hell know I don't trust my own insurance company that I've been with for years?

Jamie:

Yeah. It's a good question. Right?

Mary:

It's a it's a very I'm willing

Pete:

to give them a shot.

Mary:

I am too. But it's a very weird psycho. I don't know what's going on with people, but it's crazy. So you're telling me that that the CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield has your best interest in heart and you can trust him to take care of you, but your but your congressman, you can't? Right.

Jamie:

Well, the idea is and and I think health care has not done a good job with this. The idea is that competition will breed that over time because you have to. But but health care has never been subject

Pete:

to a lot of competition. Competition plus regulation will breed that. All up. That's the That they're buying

Mary:

them all up. That's what's happening.

Jamie:

Yeah. I know. There's

Mary:

5 main people and they own them all.

Jamie:

There's not a lot of competition in healthcare. So you're right. The healthcare without competition, without a lot of regulation, puts in a position where people can buy the other folks up and they just become these big conglomerates.

Mary:

Well, but I was gonna say, I mean, some benefits to you staying with your private that he covered on, which is one, which is there's no lifetime cap. I mean, you know That's

Pete:

a really big deal.

Mary:

That's a very good deal.

Jamie:

Personal cap, no lifetime cap, all

Mary:

those things. You need some sort of organ transplant. You're not gonna hit your cap, and and they're gonna stop covering you.

Pete:

So even if you're paying $3,000 a month for your premiums, at least you know you're gonna have it covered. Right.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Mary:

Exactly. I mean, that's the thing. That's why the whole premium thing has me nervous because that's that's where the loophole is. Yeah. And here's the thing.

Pete:

Interesting. I just I I feel like there's gotta be more information that we're missing. Does that just seem absurd?

Jamie:

All I know is when I read this it was like last week that

Pete:

No cap on

Jamie:

That there's been a big debate about the whole cap issue. And and I don't remember where I read it. It was recently about and it really was referring to people who are younger, who are have really cheap rates Yeah. And people who are older have really expensive rates. And and what's the right mix, of of cap, you know, with those people that you have.

Jamie:

And so I don't know the answer. I just know it's been debated a lot. But

Mary:

I mean, part part of the reason part of the reason that our also that our premiums do go up is because we are paying for the the uninsured in the country who when they get sick, go into the emergency rooms to get their care. I mean Yeah. Yeah. We are paying for that in our premiums. This is where I don't get where Americans like, I don't wanna pay for some some lazy, you know Yeah.

Mary:

You're already paying. Who choose not to have health insurance and went to the emergency room, and it's like, you are. Don't you get it?

Pete:

You have been all over. You're already paying. We're trying to fix that.

Mary:

Right. We're trying to make it so that you don't keep having your premiums raised just because of that. Right. But it's, I had I had a comment that I wanted to make about oh, here's what I so he comes out. Right?

Mary:

And he says, you know, how many how many times has an administration attempted health care? He does that right off the bat. Right? K. So he talks about from, you know, from FDR time on, basically.

Mary:

Yeah. Right? Okay. So I sit here and I say, wow. So this has been a big debate for the last 40

Pete:

to 50 years.

Mary:

Okay? And every time we're told by the centrist of our government that they know better than we do, that we need to trust the insurance companies, we'll make a change here, we'll make a change here, it'll make it better for you. And guess what? We still end up getting screwed. We're still in the same spot.

Mary:

Comes back up again, the debate starts again, we get told the same things, we're told we'll get rid of pre existing conditions, blah blah blah blah blah. We're still screwed. Comes up again. The point is, it's like, history has shown me that we can't trust you and private insurance to do the right thing.

Pete:

Mhmm.

Mary:

Because if we could, we wouldn't have this debate for the last 50 years. Mhmm. We wouldn't feel like I feel like we're insane. Doing the same things the same way every time and expecting a different outcome. And then as Americans, we all stand there shocked and don't understand why we're in this situation.

Mary:

Because we're doing the same whole thing every time.

Jamie:

Well, if you have health insurance that you like and you're paying a premium that you can afford, it's not a problem for you.

Mary:

And if you haven't had to

Jamie:

use it, it's not a problem. So, I mean, for people who are doing routine doctor stuff, it's not a big deal for them.

Jamie:

Right?

Jamie:

So in some ways, it's it's pushing a rock up a hill for them to say, this is a problem. And you may not feel it, but it is a problem. And so how do you make them feel it so they will wanna change? It's a tough one.

Mary:

It's tough.

Jamie:

You know?

Mary:

You know? But once they get cancer, they'll have a whole

Jamie:

different attitude. They will or they could. But I I think the way that Obama is is is challenging that, issue of of the health care industry kind of doing their own thing is by having this exchange that then has a government run option. And and it's a way to kind of create this low watermark that everybody has to meet. So that's his that's his goal.

Mary:

You know? But not everybody's eligible for that.

Jamie:

Yeah. No. They're gonna put a bunch of strings on it.

Mary:

Only people who are really really poor. Yeah. Exactly. So so I'm still stuck with private health insurance. I'm completely under insured.

Mary:

Well, hopefully not. Major happens in my family. We

Jamie:

are. But hopefully there's an exchange where other people can come in and compete, where they can't today. I mean, it's very locked in. You can't go across state lines. Mhmm.

Jamie:

You can't get groups together to be able to drive premiums down.

Mary:

And how about this? Did you also know that if you have have insurance through your employer, you cannot sue that insurance company when they don't meet their contractual obligations.

Jamie:

Really? I didn't know that.

Mary:

Yeah. Was shoved into a RISA law.

Pete:

Oh, interesting. I didn't

Mary:

know that. The court those they can they can screw your organization as much as they want, and there's nothing your organization or you can do about it.

Pete:

Fascinating. I

Jamie:

think though that we we probably It's outrageous. Yeah. But again That's what it is. I think it's easy to pick on insurance companies, and I think there are insurance companies out there who are trying really hard and who are doing a good job. And I think it's easy it's easy to pick them apart and and and Who?

Jamie:

Who? Yeah. I don't know. Just to glump them all together and say they're all bad. I just don't buy that.

Mary:

All insurance is is citizen is a is a middleman for moving pushing dollars around. So what's the point? If you were in business, you'd be like it'd be like office space where they sit down, they go, now what exactly do you do? No. No.

Mary:

No. No. And the guy goes, I take the documents from this department over to this department. Right? And the first thing that consultants do is what the hell is with the middle

Jamie:

man? Yeah.

Jamie:

What kind

Mary:

of the middle man? Well, insurance

Jamie:

is very pure based. Right? Because you all worry about something's gonna happen. So you buy insurance, buy health insurance, buy life insurance.

Mary:

Well, you're betting to get something happening.

Jamie:

That's what you're doing. So but but just lump them all together and say they're all bad. I I I just don't buy that. I mean, I I just don't think that's the case. I

Jamie:

think the system is set up

Jamie:

very, very poorly at this point. And and the hope is, I think and again, I go back to the can you come up with a model to help drive competition? And and, of course, this is

Jamie:

a lot

Mary:

of people who are involved. Countries that have a great model and it's working. But apparently, we can't look at any of those.

Jamie:

No. Not necessary so. France's system is going bankrupt. Canada's system's in the toilet. Come on.

Jamie:

If you do some reading about it, they're talking about reforming those in very major ways. So it's not like they're necessarily

Jamie:

But you

Pete:

know what they're not talking about doing with all those? They're not talking about a mob like around the United States and system.

Jamie:

Absolutely. The United States has always gone its own way. I'm not saying our health care system works today. I'm I'm just not a big believer in in big universal coverage. I'm hoping there's a middle ground.

Jamie:

I hope and I'm hoping Obama's trying to find that middle ground, and that'll get through. Well, what is your concern

Mary:

if there was? What what do you care?

Jamie:

What do I care?

Mary:

Yeah. What do you care? If you could get if you could have great insurance through through Medicare, you never have to get jacked around. You don't have to ever call them up and say, wait. No.

Mary:

You should pay this bill. That's part of my

Jamie:

account. That happens with Medicare? No. You don't think so? No.

Mary:

Not on the basic Medicare. It does not. Now all these other Medicare now what people don't understand is there's a lot of private insurance in Medicare. Medicare Part D is private insurance. Medicare Advantage is private insurance.

Jamie:

Right.

Mary:

K. Those are separate, and those people are constantly screwing Medicare. All these fraudulent acts. I mean, was it, Pfizer who just settled huge $1,000,000 deal with Medicare because of the fraud that they were doing? Right.

Jamie:

Right.

Mary:

So let's just say, put all let's just say that with that, you could have you never have to worry, you never have to let's say you're in Detroit and something happens, you don't have to worry about which hospital you could go to. You go, the bill's covered. No matter what happens to any of your family members, they get covered, they get quality health care. Right. Okay?

Mary:

And you're pairing a fair price for that. Everybody's paying a fair price for that. What's your problem with that? Why are you so concerned with making sure that private insurance stays in the picture? Why why is that a big deal to you?

Jamie:

Well, it goes back to my fundamental belief that I think competition breeds excellence. Right? The the

Mary:

more competition you have your free market

Jamie:

capital. Absolutely. Okay. So the more competition you have, if it's done in a free market way and one of the problems we have with health care now is it's not a free market. So we have states like, you know, Louisiana or whatever.

Jamie:

We only have one person

Jamie:

in the name.

Jamie:

Right? Okay. So so if you can level the playing field so that it really becomes free market, then you have an opportunity to to provide the best health care you can at the best rate

Jamie:

possible.

Mary:

And so is an offering an option for people who say, you know what? You know, I'm fine with the government giving me my healthcare. Isn't that free market? Isn't that bringing another competitor in to force these people to be honest? No.

Jamie:

I don't have a problem with that at all. What I have a problem with is is erasing the entire system with with a government run system. Right?

Jamie:

I I

Mary:

just don't want this. For that. I'm just set it up and let the people make the decision.

Jamie:

Yeah. I'm good with that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie:

I don't think we should go to a one pair system like Canada or something like that, but having a

Pete:

system where nowhere this is, I think, maybe where we're in violent agreement is nowhere in the speech last night did he say anything

Jamie:

about going to

Pete:

a smaller system. In fact, he just talked about increasing competition and doing it in a way that is regulated and and protects people more than makes them crazy.

Jamie:

Doing it in the right way.

Pete:

I think I think he's telling the Well,

Jamie:

I think he's doing the best middle of the road he can.

Pete:

Yeah.

Jamie:

We'll see if he can get it through. Well He the challenge is people on the far left are saying we're not gonna vote for anything if it's not, you know, a huge overhaul where there's only one pair and But even No. They just want public option.

Pete:

They want a public option. That's all they're saying.

Jamie:

Want. And there have been people on the right that says, you know, if you have any kind of public option or whatever, we're not gonna vote for.

Pete:

Well, there are people on the right who say we're not gonna vote for anything.

Jamie:

Vote for voting. We're not gonna vote for anything. We're not gonna vote

Pete:

for anything. You know, talk about, you know, everybody should have fireworks every 4th July, and I need that we're not gonna work. Has come

Jamie:

a long way. Even Sarah Palin and and and her, you know, stuff that she's written lately. And and by the way, she just could not write that eloquently, I'm sure. But but, has talked about that the health care system is broken and needs to be reformed. And that's for her and and the far right to come that far, I mean, that's a huge issue.

Jamie:

But then

Mary:

she's floating the death panels again.

Jamie:

Yeah. The whole death panel thing is a bunch of crap.

Pete:

I mean, it's just She's sort of become a figurehead for her own operation. She's so fast. She's writing on her Facebook is not written by her.

Jamie:

But she is coming She is. Away. So I think the argument is is moving towards the middle, I I hope. And I hope Obama has kind of captured the the momentum again.

Pete:

Catch the dig on on McCain last night in the speech? He says,

Jamie:

well, he

Pete:

he was talking about the idea. Yeah. Well, he was talking about a good idea and and, you know, it it's I just I I just love it when he's able to so eloquently bring these points back in that says, you know what? Republicans, you guys came up with this. So let's go ahead and use it, and you tell me why you

Jamie:

don't wanna do it now. Right.

Mary:

Yeah. So Well, I understand is how is a co op different than a government option? Because see, really, a co op is a whole bunch of people that come together, right, and pool their money

Jamie:

to get

Mary:

a good deal on. Isn't that what the government option is? And actually, aren't we all the government? So the co op is just another complex way of doing it where then the health insurance can stay greatly involved and and and bog down the system and create

Pete:

all these benefits. Options is in the in in his plan is a co op option where, where anybody who's out of work can or loses their job, changes jobs, or is a small business can join in with a co op and get government rates? I thought that was part of

Jamie:

the problem.

Mary:

Only get called a co op. Co ops is the republican things they floated, and then 2 weeks later, they hated co ops too even though it was their idea. So

Pete:

But I think this I think there's a part of it that that is a coop. But that's a But it's

Mary:

the same thing. Yeah.

Pete:

That's right. Yeah. No. It is. It is.

Jamie:

Yeah. I don't know.

Jamie:

I mean,

Jamie:

I'm I'm not versed enough on all the details.

Pete:

Well, here's here's what I wanna know from you. Did you keep your kids home from school the day before yesterday?

Jamie:

You know, that is that is a great question. And, no, I did not.

Pete:

I was You let them go.

Jamie:

I let them go and get brainwashed. Because I heard this, this liberal scary awful I know. That is

Mary:

Really? I mean, god.

Pete:

Terrible thing.

Jamie:

You know what? It's really funny.

Pete:

School. Learn to read. I,

Jamie:

Work hard.

Pete:

That's propaganda.

Jamie:

I saw I saw the the folks on TV, you know, complaining about his his that he was going to do this. And the first thing that I thought in my head is, man, did you did your mama drop you on your head and feed you a bottle of stupid juice?

Jamie:

There is

Jamie:

some Why would you argue against Obama going to kids and saying stay in school? Don't drop out. Do your studies.

Mary:

You know, I get that what they say it was. What but I my understanding is that of the the follow-up lesson that they put together, you know, that wasn't even him. It was the department of ed. But that then said, what would you do

Jamie:

to Right.

Mary:

To How

Jamie:

can you help the president?

Mary:

Help the president. And and so, of course, what it should have said is what can you do to help your country?

Jamie:

Right.

Mary:

I I

Jamie:

mean, so people take it just shows how it's funny where we've come as a country that that people sit there and argue that no nobody was saying that Obama is saying, come vote for me. You know, you're only 12 years old, but when it's time, you know, vote liberal.

Mary:

That's not what

Jamie:

he was saying.

Mary:

He was just simply saying,

Jamie:

stay in school. And I gotta tell you, when my kids came home from school, they were proud that that Obama took the time to talk to them. And and they were even telling me things of what he said. Well, here's what he said. And here's here's what it means to me.

Jamie:

And and here's here's how I related to it. And I thought, you know, good for him. I mean, really, good for him. And and if that keeps a kid in school somewhere Right. Why not?

Jamie:

You know what?

Mary:

I mean? His daughter seemed stable and they're smart and they're well behaved.

Jamie:

I mean,

Jamie:

I think these people that were complaining. What a bunch of morons.

Mary:

Yeah. It was.

Jamie:

You can I don't care if if it were Obama or Bush or Clinton or Bush or Reagan or or Carter or Nixon? If they wanna talk to students kids.

Mary:

And talk to kids

Jamie:

and tell them to stay in school, congratulations. You should

Jamie:

do that.

Jamie:

Yeah. Use your bully pulpit pulpit to try and make it I

Mary:

mean, what a horrible role model. I mean, you know, you he was, you know, born to a single mother. I mean, you know, he pulled himself up by his bootstraps to put conservatives. He got an education. He actually went on to law school.

Mary:

He was head of the Harvard Business Review. I mean, what a horrible role model for your children.

Jamie:

I I people who who took it out of context and were trying to make it into something political. I I just I have no respect for them.

Mary:

What was behind it? I mean, you know, there's there's, you know, 2 parts of me. 1, at times, I'm like, this is race. This is this is racism coming out, or is this a fundamental value? And and I may be biased being an educator.

Mary:

Okay? But I really think that there's been a war on education for a very long time. Right? Because if we have if we have a society full of people who are educated, who can critically think, who who can see through spin, and not buy into that, who don't make emotional decisions, you can't be manipulated and controlled. So in some ways, is there something happening where and and and it's odd because it might even be educated people, but yet they were against that.

Mary:

And it's like, so what's the real rub? Is it is it are you really bothered about maybe somebody coming and saying stay in school? I mean, does it threaten you if your children go on and get an education? Is that what this is about?

Pete:

I don't I don't think so. I really I really don't. I think this is one 100% political. I think when you look at

Jamie:

Yeah.

Pete:

At the talking points that are clearly being reproduced verbatim by Michelle Malkin, by Glenn Beck. I mean, these just idiots in the right media that, that are saying that they're just they're finding an issue. Any issue, even issues that right thinking people would would say, it's impossible to say this is this is a a political mess. It's impossible to say that to have a negative opinion of this. Like, the president's gonna talk to our nation's kids.

Pete:

They will take any issue and find a way to politicize it just to get the headlines.

Jamie:

Because he's liberal

Mary:

or because Because he's not.

Jamie:

No. No. Because he's on the other side. He's

Pete:

on the other side.

Jamie:

On the

Jamie:

other side.

Pete:

And politics the the emotion of politics has escalated so much

Jamie:

over the last 5

Pete:

years, that that, the pace of that escalation has has increased so fervently that, that this is what we come to. This is idiocracy in emotion. Right? I mean, this is this is where we're going. It in in another 10 to 15 years, the most popular television show will be guy gets kicked in the balls.

Pete:

That's Yeah. That's what's next. That's where we go from here.

Jamie:

Well, that's it. It is the emotion of the argument. I read this great article. I'll have to try and find it. I read so much stuff and funny.

Jamie:

You kinda pass through it then, like, later it comes up. It's a

Pete:

good you're a reader. I am.

Jamie:

God, that's a little education. I know. You are a centrist. You're saying, us independence don't read. I read a lot because I wanna stay educated.

Jamie:

I don't buy into the left spin or the right spin.

Mary:

You're conservative.

Jamie:

I

Jamie:

am pretty conservative. Yeah. But but the the article is about this fact that much of the health care debate is not a debate of facts, but it's a debate of emotion.

Pete:

For facts.

Jamie:

This debate of I believe x y z, and then I'll back up and find anecdotal evidence to support my argument, and that's what I'll stick to. Yes. Right?

Jamie:

Mhmm.

Jamie:

And so it's it's not about what are the facts lead me. It is Right. I already made my decision based upon And now I'll find everything I can to back up. About that.

Mary:

Exactly. Yes. It's a psychologist.

Pete:

It was something. Now you're telling me you people are reading the same thing?

Mary:

It was. It was,

Jamie:

She is coming over to the center. Absolutely.

Mary:

I no. It was it was in one, like, New York Times.

Jamie:

Yeah. It was a major argument.

Mary:

Yeah. And he was explaining the phenomenon that goes on. And he was talking about how there's there's the mental, congruence. Isn't it right? What what he's talking about?

Mary:

Where internally, they have within their own side, they're struggling. And so in order Cognitive dissonance. That's area. And so in order anyway, it it I enjoyed it at the time because it made me go Yeah. Okay.

Mary:

Well, maybe some of what their behavior makes sense. I mean, I Yeah. It it

Jamie:

because it's an emotional reaction.

Mary:

Right. It brought a little understanding to it. But And

Jamie:

that's what I've seen a lot of. That's what I saw out of people going on TV talking about Obama talking to kids. It was a very emotional, how dare you tell my kids? But I I think they just did it because they generally are arguing against the other side. Yeah.

Jamie:

I think it's because Obama's black. I don't think it's because I just think it's because he's in charge. You know, his side won. Right. Your side didn't win, and now you're pissed about it.

Mary:

But when you look at stats though so here'd be something interesting to go with. When you look at a lot of the stats and you look at where most of that emotion was coming from, when when it was tea baggers to the the health care, it was the South. Okay? Now it was certainly happening some in the North, but it was predominant down there in the South. Well, we all know what the Southern strategies fit.

Mary:

Go back to the civil rights

Jamie:

Right.

Mary:

Issue. So I really what I'm pushing back on is I think that I think racism is playing a much larger role than people want to admit.

Jamie:

It could.

Mary:

I think they're clouding their racism by acting appalled, by talking to children, or those kinds of things, because nobody wants to sit in the room and say.

Jamie:

Well, nobody wants to talk

Jamie:

about that.

Mary:

They have with it is that he's black.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Mary:

But I think there is

Jamie:

I hope that's not a case.

Mary:

Population of this country where they are irked over the fact that not only was that did a it was there a black person who went on and and despite all of the challenges of life, single mother, yada yada, went on and made something for himself, but he also made it to the highest office in this country.

Jamie:

I hope not. I hope it's not, but I do. I'm sure there are some people that way. You know, I hope they look at it for what it is. Gosh.

Jamie:

What a good story. Gosh. How inspiring. You know, anybody can do it. It doesn't matter.

Jamie:

Race, color, creed, sex, or whatever. I mean, I hope that's what people take away.

Mary:

Telling people, come on white people. We need to reproduce.

Jamie:

Yeah. I

Mary:

They're they're they're see what I've seen? They're they're feeding that.

Jamie:

I understand.

Mary:

Yeah. They're feeding it.

Jamie:

It's unfortunate. I I hope they're not hiding some kind of racist feeling, you know, and and spinning in some kind of different way. I don't know.

Mary:

I don't even know if people consciously are doing it.

Pete:

Do you see what I mean?

Jamie:

I'm sure they're not consciously. Although, I'm sure there's some are. But I'd say for people, if they are feeling that way, they're not they don't necessarily They're

Mary:

not connecting the dots. They don't see they they're not really reflecting and going, you know, looking at going internal to say why does this bother me so much?

Jamie:

But on a

Mary:

I didn't care when George Bush went to talk to kids. Yeah. No. I didn't give one thought about it.

Jamie:

No. Why should you

Pete:

care? Right?

Mary:

So that's what I mean. And and I didn't like that guy at all.

Jamie:

Yeah. I I you raise a good point.

Jamie:

I don't

Jamie:

know why people

Mary:

were angry.

Jamie:

There is a lot of anger in in the nation. I I think part of it is economic because people just don't have jobs. I think that that the bubble is over.

Jamie:

Stress level is

Jamie:

clearly higher. There are a lot of thing, a lot of uncertainty, you know, very clouded. We're in 2 wars and I mean, let's be frank. Right? We we have boys and and girls, men and women dying every single day for us in in wars that, you know, is the Afghan war even winnable at this point?

Jamie:

And and is it winnable in any kind of time frame? And so, I mean, we've got a lot of challenges, and I think it bubbles on a lot of ways. I hope though what Obama does is he focuses very clearly on health care. And he has a tendency to be very scattered because he has a lot of ideas. So one day

Mary:

a very large problem.

Jamie:

There is. But you know what it takes to lead. You have to be very, very focused. And and

Mary:

I know.

Jamie:

He has a tendency to say, alright. You guys have this one kind of work and let's go out and talk about this. And let's go out and talk about this. And and I think what it does is it fractures us and we're too divided on too many subjects. And and I'm hoping that he spends, you know, the next several months really focusing on health care to get something through before shifting topics too quickly because I I don't think we can adjust that much.

Mary:

Tell you. He doesn't get it through and he doesn't get it where there is a public option.

Jamie:

You're moving to Canada?

Mary:

No. We'll have a Republican in for you and that'll be next. I guarantee it.

Jamie:

Well, he is

Mary:

He will not have a second term. That's my call.

Jamie:

Well, he is That's depressing. Certainly campaigning for midterm elections already.

Mary:

That's crap too.

Jamie:

Well, but I mean, it's it's the reality of it.

Mary:

I mean, look at what our system does. These people do nothing but really campaign. That's what they have to do majority of the time. That's why nothing is

Jamie:

But isn't that today's society? I mean, don't don't companies really operate quarter to quarter? And isn't that part of the problem? Don't,

Mary:

That's the problem.

Jamie:

There was an article I read today about football teams and the NFL teams. And the the tendency with NFL teams now is hire, young head coaches, bring players in and try and turn around within 1 or 2 years or you're out. Right? I mean, it's all very fast paced. It's either you

Mary:

win today gratification nation.

Jamie:

I mean, go on. So for him to have this 2 years, I mean, that's the way society is.

Mary:

Well, but it's a

Jamie:

broad system too. Short window. It's unfortunate because It's a broken system.

Jamie:

It is.

Mary:

I mean, it's what it is. I mean, the fact that the the house runs every 2 years. So basically, from the time they come in on day 1, and same with senate, actually. But there's figures, and they have to have already raised every day.

Jamie:

Mhmm.

Mary:

So they come in, and they spend 50% of their time working to raise funds to get reelected again. And then 50% of their time working on work for the country. Yep. That's why we don't ever get anywhere. That's why we're the hamster in the wheel.

Jamie:

Well, it is the best system I know of, but at the same time, you think about the way the constitution was written. 2 years was was really a long time. Now with the way information flows, it's so fast that you don't have any choice but to really be campaigning from the day 1.

Mary:

But if we had publicly financed campaigns, nobody would have to spend their time fundraising.

Jamie:

Yeah. I mean, certainly there's a debate for it. There's a there's an argument for it with that side. Absolutely.

Mary:

You know? And I mean and of course, you know, one of the one of the largest groups that's anti any publicly financed campaigns, which we all need to to note is TV because they make huge amounts of money on political ads.

Jamie:

This is where they make a lot

Mary:

of their money. They make

Jamie:

a ton

Mary:

of money. Yeah. So they, of course, they wanted to stay the way it is so that these people have 1,000,000 of dollars to run ads.

Jamie:

Yeah. I I listened to an article on, NPR not too long ago that was about this subject that that money for television is way down after the political season because, you know, they're not fighting for for airwaves at this point. Until Super Bowl. Bidding. Yeah.

Jamie:

And then Super Bowl comes in, but but even that money is is probably way down as well just given the economy.

Mary:

Yeah.

Jamie:

But

Mary:

Well, what about Joe Wilson? So what are we thinking on him?

Jamie:

So this is the guy that stood up and said liar. Right?

Jamie:

I don't

Mary:

know if he stood up. Did he say that?

Jamie:

Oh, no.

Jamie:

I don't know. Yeah. Oh.

Pete:

I don't think I we didn't see him.

Jamie:

I was

Mary:

saying that. I think he just yelled that out.

Pete:

But yeah. I said you lie. So And and so the question is how much money are does his opponent went making now? Yeah.

Jamie:

Yeah. Something like 300,000 or something. Already?

Mary:

Yeah. It was 200,000 by 9 o'clock this morning.

Jamie:

Sweet.

Mary:

And I, of course, went, you know, as soon as they announced on TV who it was that said it, I, of course, was like, who is this guy? You know, so I'm on Google, and and his site's already down. And I mean, that was, like, within 20 minutes of it.

Jamie:

His opponent. Right?

Mary:

No. His site

Jamie:

was down. His Joe Wilson site

Mary:

was down. So you couldn't email him to tell him what you thought. Oh. So his site was down. It was all it was unavailable.

Jamie:

Yeah. Right now, due to exceptionally high traffic, this site is taking us people or wanting to give him money, maybe, at this point. Oh, sure. Sure.

Mary:

I'm sure that's what it is.

Jamie:

I I bet you his, fundraising went up for saying that. I bet it has.

Pete:

Joe Wilson?

Jamie:

Yeah. I bet it hasn't gone up as much as his his opponent, but I bet it has gone up.

Pete:

Because somebody Well, yeah. That's no. That's probably true.

Jamie:

That's probably true. 40% of

Pete:

the population, 30% or the 20% vocal minority, they're the ones who are

Jamie:

saying that. Sticking it to the man. I mean, you're sure some people feel that way. Yeah. And they're like, here, I'll give you money.

Jamie:

But but certainly it's a boon to his opponent more than

Jamie:

anything else.

Pete:

Yeah. He'll be out. I mean, he'll be out. Next time he's up, he'll be gone. You don't need to you know, nobody needs to start

Mary:

talking about that. Carolina. No. That's Well, but

Jamie:

I don't know. I just think these are the states today.

Pete:

The, the the other piece I was looking for, is that I I heard a statistic that I can't back up right now about the trend of, education level versus party affiliation. Mhmm. And, they this is this is back to the idiocracy point. Right? It's that, the the left is carried for is is it carried at an increasingly, quick pace.

Pete:

The post graduate, graduate and Yeah. Even now, 4 year, college graduate, roles. And so, and and also the rest of the country. So the the conservative Republican base is becoming increasingly white, increasingly southern, and increasingly, uneducated or undereducated.

Jamie:

Which is really is not the party of Ronald Reagan. I mean, that's just

Pete:

it's unfortunate. It well, that's really true.

Jamie:

I mean, I'm a Ronald Reagan Republican. Right? And and and that's not what he ran on. That's not the way he he tried to

Mary:

What you what you have really right now is the the the Republican party is now is the Democrats. And that those are the people that are, you know, really kinda sitting centrist. Then you've got this far right party that is something different because they're not No. Republicans.

Jamie:

No. They don't represent me as as a

Mary:

But anyways, and then what you have is you have out you have the progressive caucus that

Pete:

is gaining more,

Mary:

and that's the far left.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Mary:

And that's where

Pete:

They're the socialist.

Mary:

Yes. We are.

Jamie:

Yeah. I mean

Mary:

Jesus. We're democrat socialist. I'd like let's say I love Bernie Sanders. If you've ever listened to the guy, I mean, he calls himself a democratic socialist. Yeah.

Mary:

And, I mean Party of the people? And if you listen yes. Exactly. That's what he says. And he's the he's

Jamie:

the Socialism though has been proven not to work over and over and over again.

Pete:

So I mean, you have Socialism is an ideology

Jamie:

to us. Exactly. But it is it's it's not

Mary:

a way to run a country. We we have socialism now. What's your police department, your fire department, the post office, the court systems? You know, what?

Jamie:

I mean, certainly, you have to look at certain things and say, you know, is is there never mind. We're on a different subject. Yeah.

Mary:

But anyway, so but what you were saying going back Well,

Jamie:

I wanna go back to the education point. Right?

Jamie:

Yes. I

Jamie:

I think and I don't have the stats in front of me, but I've

Pete:

read Well, let me just say one thing real quick because I have I do have the stats from 2003 Okay. And they were almost, even. Really? Yeah.

Jamie:

Well, what I've what I've seen and and have Even

Mary:

between the two parties? 10

Pete:

to Now they're 10 to 12 points 10 to 12 points apart.

Jamie:

So Well, what I I maybe I've missed your point, but what I've tended to see and and read and and and believe is that the more educated somebody becomes, they they tend to become more liberal, and and they tend to move towards the left.

Jamie:

Well, I

Mary:

think they became to become more open minded and critical thinkers.

Jamie:

Yeah. So that's the argument. There's 2 sides of that argument. One argument is that comes from the far right, which is, oh, well, that's because we stack our universities with with people way on the left, and so we brainwash our kids to move to the left.

Jamie:

That's a

Mary:

that's a really easy answer.

Jamie:

But, the other argument is is no. They are just becoming more independent thinkers and critical thinkers, and they're making their own decisions. Right? And in that process, they're tending to move further to left. I happen to buy the the latter argument, you know, that that they're become critical thinkers and they make better

Jamie:

decisions.

Mary:

And it was emotional.

Jamie:

Yeah. I hope so.

Mary:

When you are a critical thinker I mean, really, you you you one of the things that makes if you're a good critical thinker is you recognize when your emotions are guiding your decision making.

Jamie:

Because Mary's never driven by her emotions.

Mary:

Never.

Jamie:

You know?

Mary:

Jesus. My god. It's all the time. And that's where that's the one thing that I do right is when I recognize this is emotion that's pushing this right now.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Mary:

It's there you you're there's nothing to back what you're feeling other than your own emotions. What you're thinking other than your own emotions. So I at least have that ability to do that. And I've learned over the time that then I don't need jerk react. I don't make quick decisions because I know that I have to go through a thought process.

Jamie:

Right.

Mary:

And as I go through that thought process, I start to to understand what's going on. And then the emotion to decrease, and I'm seeing the situation for what it really is. But I'm not saying that I'm I'm better than anybody else, and that I don't ever let my emotions drive me.

Jamie:

But but I I do hope that as we become more educated, we become better critical thinkers. And and and I think that that what the Republicans have really done is marginalized themselves by moving to the far right. So they become the party of of, white or uneducated or just southern or whatever. And in that case, the whole model, the Karl Rove model of of fragmenting and really focusing on those really starts falling apart Yeah. Very quickly.

Jamie:

And they can't they can't live and get enough votes from that position to

Pete:

be able to rise. They're not sustainable.

Jamie:

They're No. That's not a sustainable plan.

Mary:

People don't like fear and smear in the end.

Jamie:

No. And I and I think,

Pete:

But unfortunately, there's already a huge faction of a nontrivial faction of the population that's bought it. Right? I mean, there's this is that that's where But what? That's where we fall apart. The fear, the smear, the the, you know, the the Glenn Beck, paranoia.

Jamie:

You know, all you have all you can do is just continue to push forward with with, you know, facts and good arguments and and hope over time you

Pete:

can The fall of our civilization is on the shoulders of Karl Rove. That's what I hear you saying.

Mary:

But so what's interesting is

Jamie:

that you have that His policy of of fracturing and and then basically rising up this angry minority

Mary:

Right.

Jamie:

To to vote is is not, and I never thought it was. While it may win in the short term and it certainly got Bush elected, I never thought it was sustainable from a long term party point of view. And so what I think it's done over the long haul is made the Republican Party more marginalized.

Mary:

Yeah. Well, because here's, you know well, first to one thing real quick going I don't wanna lose my point back to to Pete. Which so what that would tell me, if you look at the 2,003 stats and then where it's at, what that would actually tell me is you had a fair amount of people who were educated critical thinkers, who are Republicans, who ended up through all this muck and crap of the last 8 years of the Bush administration, finally said, I'm out. Just like you did.

Jamie:

Yeah. Well, they become

Mary:

as an independent. They become

Jamie:

blue dog dog Democrats or or independents.

Mary:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So It's just really where they're where they're living. And and because they are critical thinkers and they tend to vote with with a, what does it mean to me, you know, financially? So they're worried about that. Right. But they also realize there is a place in society for socialist policies to go back

Jamie:

to your point.

Jamie:

Independent. For the government has a role. And and they're trying to find that government. And they're trying to find that balance. Right?

Jamie:

They don't believe in in far left, you know, takeover of everything. They they wanna find some place in the middle. I think that's majority of where America's at. I think Obama got elected because he talks to that educated center really well. Yeah.

Jamie:

And he's struggling to govern from the educating

Mary:

Well, because the sis the thing just like Clinton Part

Jamie:

of it is because his party doesn't let him.

Mary:

Dems. I mean, you know, here's the deal with the you had you had Clinton, you had Obama. Both of them ran as pretty much progressives. When you listen to what they talked about, they got into office, Clinton went immediately to the center. And that's where he governed pretty much the entire time.

Mary:

I mean, NAFTA right there is a total centrist sitting in the middle

Jamie:

Yeah. But what's wrong with that?

Mary:

Type approach.

Jamie:

I mean, people would argue that Newt green Newt Gingrich saved Bill Clinton. I mean, there's a lot of arguments for that that Bill Clinton came in, did a big giant health care plan, lost Congress. Right? And the only thing that really allowed him to govern pattern. You're saying?

Jamie:

Yeah. It is the pattern. The only thing that allowed Bill Clinton then to come back and and win and and and have a, you know, a real successful career is that he then moved back to the center and and between the 2 of them basically bouncing off

Jamie:

each other.

Mary:

Center from the get go. I mean, for you guys, he was in the office. He sat down he was sat down by Alan Greenspan and and the other guy, and they were told this is how it works. You're gonna govern from the center, and he started that way from the get go. Now health care was something slightly separate.

Mary:

But in terms of his financial policies, in terms of and NAFTA. NAFTA is is one of the reasons we are in the situation we're in. It's why all the blue collar jobs are gone. Come on. That's why you've got people who who and now and what did that cause?

Mary:

Then it started to cause a societal rift between blue collar and educated people. And that's why you now have conservatives who, you know, I've got one guy in my neighborhood who says, overeducated arugula eating liberals. Yeah. Okay. That's his his smear about us.

Mary:

Right? We're over educated and we eat arugula. And apparently, both of those things are just a detriment on society.

Pete:

Mostly because arugula.

Mary:

I mean, god, I love arugula. But anyway, but I think so, Nata, and and at the

Jamie:

time I drink Budweiser.

Jamie:

You know,

Mary:

at the time when you win that election where you had

Pete:

Light.

Mary:

Who ran who was one of the main people against Clinton? The kooky guy. The guy with the charts.

Jamie:

He was a kooky Ross Perot. He was not a hero.

Mary:

And what did he say? He said and this is why I supported him at the time. And he said, you passed NAFTA, you can hear the sucking sound

Jamie:

Yeah.

Mary:

Of the jobs leaving this country. And he was 100% right. And Clint went in there and helped that happen, and he that happen. So he's a centrist. That that

Jamie:

Well, he go he had the government from the center. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gotten reelected. I mean, he had no choice. He started out though with a huge takeover of health care, which is what got him in trouble in the first place.

Mary:

Mistake. They're doing it in a vacuum, but then And then he had to come back to the side.

Jamie:

Senate. Opposite.

Mary:

Now look what we've done.

Jamie:

Obama's unfortunately, I don't think Obama's led on the health care debate really in terms he's kinda let it he went the other way.

Mary:

That's why he did it. He did not wanna repeat the Clinton mistake. Yeah. But he That's why he left it to Congress. But

Jamie:

he he saw in the pun the pendulum too far the other way. Because if you leave something to congress and have them do it, I mean, look what happens. I mean, Pelosi can't organize her own folks. I mean, it just you know, they they're all they're all the same in terms of they have a d behind their name, but that's about it. Right?

Jamie:

So she can't keep them all kind of reined in and voting the same way. So he it's what I'm

Mary:

talking about earlier. Democrats have

Jamie:

never been that way.

Mary:

Well, rights aren't, you know, Republican allies. Go off on their own and vote the way they wanna vote. Republicans should

Jamie:

say like, conservatives. No. No. Conservatives though are driven by again,

Mary:

you Listen. Okay.

Jamie:

You had the whole

Mary:

competition. Goal during, what would have this have been? This was during some of the health care stuff of Clinton, I believe. And Bob Dole pulled the, gosh. Now I'm gonna blank on this.

Mary:

Anyway, so Bob Dole pulled somebody aside from the Democratic party and said, listen. You really wanna get this done. You go it alone. You shove us out of the way, and you do it yourself.

Jamie:

Right.

Mary:

Because Bob Dole, even though he believed in what it was that the Democrats wanted, he couldn't. He had to march lockstep with his party because if he didn't, they would come and say, we're not funding you next time

Jamie:

you run. It happens to both parties.

Mary:

How they do it.

Jamie:

It absolutely happens to both parties. If you don't tow the party line, you don't get funding, you don't get seats on on the different committees, you don't get money brought into your local town. I mean, we'll ask

Mary:

committees is just seniority.

Jamie:

Hey.

Mary:

That doesn't really have anything to do with that. It's seniority.

Jamie:

Not totally seniority. No.

Jamie:

Most of

Mary:

it is.

Jamie:

I mean, you can you can be ostracized so bad that that you don't stand a chance. No.

Mary:

It's true. You have to.

Jamie:

You have to.

Mary:

You can't

Jamie:

toe the party.

Pete:

Well, last time I was chair of ways and means. I mean, it was all seniority.

Mary:

Yeah. But that's why that's why Grassley and Max Baucus had the finance. Wyoming? No. Wait.

Mary:

No. He's Montana and Iowa. Yeah.

Jamie:

He's been

Mary:

there. Montana and Iowa. What's the population of those 2 states? Right. And they run the finance committee.

Jamie:

But if you don't tow the party line, you you you get in big, big trouble in terms of getting money that you get, endorsements, people coming into your state to helping you. Committee assignments, you know, what committees

Mary:

you get assigned to, you know, all these guys. They're a nightmare. Right.

Jamie:

I mean, it's it's the same from the right and the left. But

Pete:

We have stupid news too, don't we?

Jamie:

Yes. We do. Tell us about the stupid news. Well, remember this runner from South Africa that we were talking about? Yes.

Jamie:

Remember what what was her name? I I got it here on my screen.

Pete:

It is a her?

Jamie:

It oh, I should say that. She just well, no.

Mary:

Blew it.

Jamie:

I did. Yeah. Well, she's been running as a female, and there has not been an official announcement, but I I did read tonight.

Mary:

She's a her math guy?

Jamie:

She's her math guy. We we were spot on. Yeah. Exactly. Couple of years ago.

Jamie:

What they're saying is that,

Mary:

she's certainly myself for those

Jamie:

who can't

Jamie:

see me

Jamie:

on camera. From, should I say, visual inspection, all the makings of a of a woman. However, she has no womb and no ovaries and has, internal testicles which produce a lot of testosterone. Interesting. Wow.

Mary:

So so really, now did they have to do they have to make

Jamie:

a decision to her birth? They know. Well, they do. But do you really know that she has no ovaries? I mean, they look at you visually.

Jamie:

Right? But they wouldn't know

Mary:

I guess so.

Jamie:

Until maybe you were trying to conceive and you couldn't conceive and then you went in for test. So she was born a woman, raised a woman. And for all our appearances other than she's got

Mary:

periods, she wouldn't have had

Jamie:

You know, I didn't ask her that when I interviewed her. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was a little over the line. Yeah.

Mary:

Well, no. But I mean, would you

Jamie:

I don't know.

Mary:

Wait. If you

Jamie:

don't have

Jamie:

a woman Well, if she doesn't have ovaries, I'm gonna guess

Pete:

not. Right?

Mary:

Of course, I guess if you're a major athlete though, you don't have to

Jamie:

say anything.

Mary:

You could've you could've put it to that.

Jamie:

So Wow. They're still testing because the question becomes menstruate not to use. Was she on the rag?

Jamie:

The rag? That's what I was gonna say.

Mary:

Oh, I love that.

Jamie:

She on the rag every month or yeah. Yeah. Exactly. There we go.

Pete:

I just heard a toilet flush in

Jamie:

the sky. Are we tested now? Yeah.

Jamie:

I don't

Jamie:

know. So the real question is then, what are they going to do? This is an unofficial. This is just kinda lead.

Mary:

Wow. This is Christ.

Jamie:

And they've gotta continue to do this. Where do you go from here? Where do you draw the line? And I was thinking about this today. So she produces more testosterone than normal woman.

Jamie:

Right? Obviously. Obviously. Right? Physically, you can look at her and say that.

Jamie:

So does that disqualify her, right, based upon that? And then and then how is that different than say Lance Armstrong who who has the physical capacity to produce less lactose acid? Now, Lance, one of the things that makes him really good, he he produces less lactose acid and he he gets rid of it out of his body a lot faster. So he doesn't get very sore after a workout or after he rides and he's able to recover faster the next day. So he is physically and biologically superior to other folks.

Pete:

Now wait a minute. I don't know about this. Is this because he works out a lot? No.

Jamie:

No. No. It's because

Pete:

of the way the way he's built.

Jamie:

It's the way he's built. It's just his DNA. So so he

Pete:

wants that DNA. Sure. So he is

Jamie:

he's different. Right? Which makes him gives him an Congratulations, Lance. Way to go. Way to go, dude.

Jamie:

Right? Right. How is her condition different in that respect? Wow.

Mary:

That's a really I wow.

Pete:

I don't know. Well, I mean, the look at what's his name? The the dolphin like swimmer from the Olympics, Michael Phelps. Right?

Mary:

Oh, yeah.

Pete:

Well, he was but isn't this that's the big thing where his

Mary:

I also love the hand

Jamie:

flipper torso. You totally missed out hon. His

Pete:

his torso was longer than the actual person, so his legs were shorter and so he was built like a big fin. So maybe he should be, you know, he should actually be registered as an aquatic, creature.

Jamie:

Yes. So I don't Therefore, he's disqualified.

Pete:

Therefore, he's disqualified. You can't race dolphins in a jungle.

Jamie:

You know, so the word on the street is they're probably going to disqualify her because Why can't

Mary:

she run against men?

Pete:

Yeah. Let her win.

Jamie:

She wouldn't win her. Her her scores are not nearly good enough. Right?

Mary:

Really? Yeah.

Jamie:

No. Wow. They're far below, from what I've read, from what the male scores are, several seconds below. You know, so for a female, she's very fast. But for a man, she's she's not she's not that fast.

Mary:

Well, think about kind of the That's Do you think no. Wouldn't it really?

Jamie:

I feel sorry. Yeah. This?

Mary:

Do you think they knew?

Jamie:

Or is

Mary:

this her first discovery, and she finds out she's got testicles inside it?

Pete:

She's got testicles. How would you And she's disqualified because of it.

Mary:

And by the way, you'll never be able to have a kid. Yeah. I mean If that mattered to you.

Pete:

So I oh, and preexisting condition.

Jamie:

So we're not gonna cover this surgery. Yeah. So I feel kinda sorry for her because she wouldn't if this turns out to be true, she never would have known in the first place that this was probably the case. Right. So now it becomes, oh, you're faster than everybody because and then is this career taken away from her because

Jamie:

of that?

Mary:

Thing she's got.

Jamie:

What else does she do? So I I feel a little sorry. It it's a sticky wake up.

Pete:

That is

Mary:

that is true. Do her DNA, what does she show up as?

Jamie:

I don't know. The the article that I posted on our Facebook, you know, page says that they're still doing testing and it's gonna take some while and,

Mary:

So I wonder if that's how you'd have to determine it. I mean, if if a DNA test says female.

Pete:

Right.

Mary:

I mean, I don't know. I it's that's very wow. What a

Jamie:

So the quote here is is the problem for us is to avoid it being an issue now, which is very personal of the organs being a hermaphrodite and not being a quote real woman. It's very dramatic, which it really is. I mean, how do you then kind of make that decision and and now she's gone on the cover of You Magazine. Have you seen her all dolled up in front of a No. Well, I've never seen her heard of You Magazine?

Jamie:

I guess it's the the largest selling English, magazine in in South Africa. And she's all dolled up. She got a dress on, hairdo, very feminine looking. Right? But if the test come back and say well, biologically, internally where you can't see she is more like a man than she is a woman.

Jamie:

I would suspect they'll disqualify her. It's just kinda yeah.

Mary:

Wow. Wow. I just think of the just the mental.

Jamie:

Yeah. It's gotta be tough.

Mary:

Tough. Yeah. Yeah. I just wow.

Jamie:

Yeah. So that's on the website

Jamie:

and

Pete:

That is crazy. Yeah. There is a I'm looking at the picture of her.

Jamie:

From the U Magazine?

Pete:

From U Magazine.

Mary:

So the only way you must have to make a decision is if when they're born, they're, you know, you see both.

Jamie:

Yeah. So I I actually I, I have a friend, who who is who is born that way, and and they had to make a decision very early on. And that's been very difficult, for her because you have a little bit of both and it's not

Mary:

kinda wrong. Or was it were

Jamie:

they No. How do

Mary:

you know picking female? How do

Jamie:

you know if you pick wrong? I mean, I mean,

Mary:

is that the real question? She could know. Yeah. She could sit and say the whole time I thought I was a male.

Jamie:

Or I would say in in her case, she has she has certainly felt more strongly towards being a a man and not a woman. And and certainly is is physically, you know, more masculine. So very pretty, you know, nice lady, but but certainly you could see that and and talked to her one time about it. I know it's been very traumatic for her to make kind of those decisions that she's gotten older.

Mary:

She have a penis Yeah. When she was starting

Jamie:

to Yeah.

Mary:

You were

Pete:

whispering into the microphone.

Mary:

Okay. And so that

Jamie:

may happen. Right? And and decision was made. To get rid of it. Now in this case of of this runner, it wasn't that physically obvious.

Jamie:

Right. It's just it's Apparently, in in this case of this this person that I know, they knew early on and and a decision. And, you know, this is what? 35 years ago or whatever. I'm sure they never really thought about it.

Jamie:

You make a decision and you probably just move on.

Jamie:

Right?

Mary:

And think of and where it is in the world. Yeah. It may not be as

Jamie:

But as then you get older and and your body starts changing and you have different hormones and different things that that a regular person does, it physiologically, you you've got some toughness to go through. Craziness. Yeah. It's very crazy.

Pete:

Yeah. And that plus, we don't in this country, we don't handle these kinds of issues historically, culturally.

Mary:

Why? Because we're weirded out by the sex thing?

Pete:

Yeah. We're weirded out by by sex thing and we're we're proved to be No. No.

Jamie:

No. We're we're talking about sex at the end of the show, like, we get to my favorite subject all of a sudden.

Pete:

Yeah. Tell me

Jamie:

about it.

Pete:

I know. Right? And here we are. I mean, we are quite literally

Mary:

at the end. And and next week, we can

Pete:

quite lucky I'm not just shutting you off right now.

Mary:

No. I was just but next week, we have 2 things because we gotta do his sec the little thing he floated out about his secretary

Jamie:

of state.

Mary:

So we're bringing that up.

Pete:

Grudge right here.

Jamie:

She's carrying a torch for me.

Pete:

Oh, yeah.

Jamie:

For me. Oh, yeah.

Mary:

I wanna I wanna talk

Jamie:

about it.

Mary:

I wanna hear why

Jamie:

you Alright. So we will talk next week about how how, you know, Hillary has not really been that effective of a secretary of state at this point.

Pete:

God. I love the last words. The last words. That's Jamie. Just with the last words.

Pete:

Thank you to, John Barley Grunch for letting us sit in the corner and and, drink and eat hummus now.

Jamie:

We're on

Jamie:

a health cake.

Pete:

Food of choice. Hummus. And, Celery. Exactly. Find us at beer 3 live dot com.

Pete:

Friend us up on our Facebook page. Fan us and friend us Feta cheese. And, hummus. Lettuce. Tom is so rotten.

Pete:

Olives. Olives.

Jamie:

It really does. Greek olives. I wonder

Pete:

if Karl Rovey Thomas.

Mary:

Let's find that out.

Pete:

This has been a this has been a really fantastic show. I appreciate that

Mary:

You are quiet this week.

Jamie:

I know.

Pete:

I'm just trying to researching. You. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for showing up.

Pete:

It's very good. And, and we will be, we'll be back next week, because of course, this is, beer 30 live.

Mary:

And we're out.