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This podcast will help you grow your B2B company quarter after quarter—with confidence, clarity, and data-backed decisions.
In each episode, you’ll learn proven strategies, practical frameworks, and first-hand insights from GTM leaders, RevOps pros, and seasoned B2B executives. They’ll walk you through how they use data to set smart targets, forecast accurately, overcome growth plateaus, and build high-performing sales and marketing engines.
You’ll hear stories of real challenges, real results, and the data-driven moves that made all the difference.
The best B2B companies don’t just look at metrics—they use them to take action. Move The Needle will help you do the same.
Ali (00:01.461)
Welcome to Move the Needle. I'm so excited to sit down today with Kyle Lacey of Dochebo and formerly of Get Ready for the Roster, Jellyfish, Seismic, Open View, Salesforce, Exact Target, author of three books, global speaker. Quite an impressive background there, Kyle. It's really a pleasure to have you on the show today. Welcome.
Kyle Lacy (00:20.494)
Thank you. I also don't, I don't pick company names very well either with like Seismic Lesson Lee, Jellyfish, Doche Bo. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Ali (00:27.893)
It just makes branding a little bit more challenging, right? And everybody wants a challenge. So we're going to talk today about something that you talk about frequently on LinkedIn, how you've really redefined marketing's role and the lessons you've learned along the way of trying to take marketing from order taker to strategic revenue partner and all of the hard earned lessons learned along the way there. I thought we could start with...
You do talk a lot about redefining marketing's role, that this is something that you've put in action at a lot of different companies. You're trying to put it in action right now at Dochebo. Can you talk a little bit about what's the number one thing that you would say teams are getting wrong that's really keeping them in that perception of marketing is just an order taker instead of marketing as a strategic revenue owning partner?
Kyle Lacy (01:21.55)
man, I, so this is such a great question because it hasn't really changed for me over the years. It's really the same answer, which is we say yes to everything. And when you say yes to everything, then you train a team or you train a group of individuals to feel like they are being productive by checking a box.
and making sure that the Asana page is, I don't even know the right vernacular to say, like all the boxes are checked on the Asana project management board or whatever. I think that's the main issue is that you orient around production and not around metrics that have that aligned to the business. Ultimately, we don't care that you get anything done if pipeline and bookings are not being met.
Ali (02:15.393)
For sure. Yeah, though people will come knocking if those things don't also get done. So maybe how do you, once you get in the rhythm of reporting on the metrics that matter, how do you also balance saying no when you need to say no to other stakeholders?
Kyle Lacy (02:20.174)
Right.
Kyle Lacy (02:32.341)
Yeah, I mean, I think the most important part is actually getting the metrics right and making sure that, you know, you're the company and your team understands why you're doing certain things. A very tactical way to approach this, which anybody can do tomorrow if you're listening, is go create a form that is a gating process for anybody who needs anything for marketing, has to go fill out a form and has to put a business case in that form.
What happens when you do that is that most like half the time people won't fill it out because they actually didn't have the business case to begin with. It also gives your team the ability to to redirect people who like to slack to ask for things. Sales reps everyone basically. This also gives your team the ability to tell an executive to go fill out a form because you're giving them permission to say hey very much appreciate the fact that you want to get this done.
Ali (03:19.383)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (03:32.5)
I have to ask you to go fill this out because this is how we keep track of everything and this is what Kyle has asked you to do, has asked everybody to do. So it removes, it removes the responsibility of saying no from the individuals on your team and puts it directly on you as a marketing leader. And that's part of your role to begin with. So first one, very tactical. know, second is just making sure that you're, you're picking the right goals and you're aligning to them. And that,
Ali (03:39.575)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (03:55.328)
Yeah.
Kyle Lacy (04:02.657)
Half of that is also communicating why you're doing that and why you pick those goals and why it's important that you focus on those metrics.
Ali (04:13.385)
Yeah, I really want to dig in with you on that because I know you've talked a lot about that. And I wondered if you could talk more about the role that data specifically has played in changing marketing's role into more of a strategic revenue owning partner. And what are those? I'm sure it's different in every business, but maybe you could speak to current state. What are those go-to-market metrics that are like top for you?
Kyle Lacy (04:30.125)
Yeah.
Kyle Lacy (04:35.957)
You would think they would be different and what I've found is that they're actually not. The same success metrics that I am looking at now are the same ones that I was looking at at jellyfish or lessenly or seismic, surprisingly. That concept actually just hit me a couple weeks ago. It was like...
All these businesses are different scales, but the challenges that I'm running into are fairly similar. So for me, there is always top of funnel pipeline, stage one, stage two, source, segment, and product. So by modules or SKUs. That is something not a lot of people do that is fairly new for me.
Ali (05:21.067)
Okay.
Kyle Lacy (05:25.865)
is making sure that you're tracking and as you add multiple products, it's very important that you do that because you want upsell and cross sell motions and you want your team oriented around that. Very hard to do upsell cross sell if you don't have product metrics like.
Ali (05:40.439)
Thank
Kyle Lacy (05:42.774)
you know, reselling or cross selling into your customer base. Stage two or stage three conversion of pipeline. Very important, especially in a sales led model. I think it's different for product led, but I've never done product led. So those definitely from a marketing perspective, those are two that you can influence directly in my opinion. And then bookings by source, segment and product.
Ali (05:46.455)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (06:13.229)
And then one that's kind of living out there that I don't have a great answer for but I'm gonna say it anyway because something that we've talked about that I think is important for all data nerds to actually consider which is how do you measure brand and a brand score and I've got a ton of different scenarios running and hypotheses of how to do that and trying to track exactly how to measure that which is like sentiment and MPS and
Ali (06:27.103)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ali (06:39.575)
Yeah.
Kyle Lacy (06:43.009)
like direct traffic and all the different things that you can measure. And how do you do that in a way that actually shows a direct relation to business impact? That's more of a, hey, anybody working on it would love to talk to you type thing.
Ali (06:56.491)
Yeah. Yeah. I actually just interviewed somebody yesterday all about that topic. So I'll share it. I talked with Pep Laya at Winter. But when you crack it, he has a lot of thoughts on it, but when you crack it, we'll have you back on to talk about your framework because that's a million dollar question.
Kyle Lacy (07:01.697)
Yeah. that's great. That's great.
Kyle Lacy (07:08.125)
Yeah, I'm sure Pap's all over that, I'm guessing.
Kyle Lacy (07:15.787)
I definitely have a framework. I definitely have a framework. have not, there isn't enough data right now for me to say this framework is like, everybody should use this framework. But it's directionally accurate, I think.
Ali (07:26.583)
Mm-hmm. But you're trying.
That's cool. I like it. Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Have you run into any friction or friendly tension around getting sales and marketing aligned to the same go-to-market metrics?
Kyle Lacy (07:48.275)
Yeah, I think the friction, the friction mainly happens at the beginning when nobody knows where to look for the data, which is something you all solve. So thank you for doing that. A central place where basically the friction starts with source of truth. Do you have a source of truth? If you have a bunch of people creating their own reports and reporting on different metrics, you're always going to have friction and nothing will get done.
Ali (07:58.741)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (08:16.81)
You have to have a central source of truth. I believe marketing should own the source of truth. My own opinion, because I believe we're the hub of go-to-market. It can live wherever, I don't care, as long as you have a source of truth. If you have a source of truth, it's really easy to do arbitration if you have agreed upon a service level agreement between marketing and sales. So the first thing is get a source of truth. I do not care if it's a Google Sheet or it's a Tableau dashboard or it's a data box or
Whoever. Source of truth. Second thing is make sure you have documentation around the agreement between all the different teams on what you're going to work on and why. Everybody has to sign it like a contract. Send around a DocuSign. And then you remove a lot of the friction because everybody's agreed upon the numbers and where to look at the numbers and what to do to actually meet those numbers appropriately. And so when there's arguments between a BDR handoff or
Ali (08:56.631)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (09:15.936)
whether it should be attributed to an event or a partner or whatever, then you have a document to go back to to say, agreed upon this previously. Is there a reason why we're arguing about this right now? Great. Okay. Perfect. Then you're moving on.
Ali (09:24.662)
Nope.
Ali (09:28.279)
Yeah, it makes sense. I think you learn those things usually the hard way, right? It feels overly formalized, but it helps in the long run.
Kyle Lacy (09:36.917)
Yeah.
But it's hard to keep, I think the hardest part is keeping all that stuff up to date in a meaningful way and with AI and a lot of the GPT, like the agent agents you can build. Like there's a lot of this thing, stuff that can be automated and will be automated in the future.
Ali (09:44.759)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (09:57.015)
That's a good point. Are you guys leaning into much of that yet in terms of automating those kind of decks? Yeah. Yeah.
Kyle Lacy (09:59.999)
We are in a lot of it. We actually, we have a very forward looking CIO and he's put in place a team that focuses primarily on AI and workflows in the company. So like think about like an AI SWAT team that can go in and say, this is what you're doing. Here's how we would change it. Let's help you build it. Yeah.
Ali (10:19.287)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (10:28.567)
That's awesome.
Kyle Lacy (10:29.95)
I'm very lucky. Shout out to Nitin, our CIO. He's doing a great job.
Ali (10:34.177)
That's cool. That's awesome to hear. So when you mentioned the product metrics and you said that was a newer one for you and that makes me think that was probably related to one of the things you shared the other day on LinkedIn, which was that you were like, bring on the pitchforks, product marketing should own a number. And I was like, Ooh, get the popcorn. Cause this, mean, like still very fresh in my mind, previous company. This was a big point of debate and demand generation was like,
Kyle Lacy (10:50.817)
Yeah.
Ali (11:02.559)
Absolutely not, we own the number. Product marketing is like, then what's our job? We own the number. Like, nobody could make up their mind at the end of the day. I don't think anyone owned the number. So I would love to hear more about how you came to that conclusion.
Kyle Lacy (11:13.854)
So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's actually, I love this conversation in general. I think that the main problem is that it's the definition of the word own. I am, when I say own, I mean that they are the steward of the number. They are the one that if I have a question on module X and what module X is producing from a product perspective, like pipeline,
Ali (11:30.103)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (11:42.111)
I am going to that product marketing manager and I'm saying, where are we at? If our CEO is worried about X, he knows he can go to product marketing and say, where are we at? Adoption. Product, I would go to product managers. You own the adoption number of products because people using the product is important. That doesn't mean that demand doesn't have a massive amount of responsibility on meeting the pipeline number.
But demand is usually focused on source and segment, not product. So yeah, demand does own the high level pipeline number. Like if I want to know why mid market pipeline is behind in June, I'm going to our demand team. I'm not going to product marketing. Right? So I think it's just that I think it's a difference in the lens that they own inside pipeline, not necessarily the fact that you are
Ali (12:30.999)
Yeah.
Bye bye.
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (12:41.99)
ultimately responsible for this but they are if it's skew focused. So if you only have one product that you sell I don't think this applies as much but if you have multiple in a platform like Doshabo you know we're a large company we have we have multiple products. So this makes more sense to me from a from an ownership perspective but I would maybe I should use steward maybe steward is a better word.
Ali (12:47.638)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (12:51.511)
Okay, right.
Ali (13:06.465)
I like that. I like that. that you're right. Also, don't know, ownership is a word that gets feathers ruffled, right? The turf wars come to mind. maybe.
Kyle Lacy (13:14.25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's, I think it's good for the LinkedIn algorithm, which I know that your boss probably appreciates, it, it, the owned word gets a little bit more traction.
Ali (13:21.13)
Yeah.
Of course.
Ali (13:27.605)
Yeah, yeah. How about when you've tried to obviously like structure your own teams around this idea internally? Has everybody been like pretty receptive and gets it? That's awesome.
Kyle Lacy (13:36.202)
Yep. Yeah, for the most part. Yeah. Ask me. Ask me six months from now. But yeah, I think that's for me. It's it's just a if if you're not I mean, what's the saying if it's not measured, it's not managed or if anything measured is managed or some I don't know who said it probably Jason Lentgen or somebody who knows some software philosopher. But that but it's true. Like you have to have somebody that's the steward of that number.
so that they can align everybody. And if they're not doing that appropriately, then you've got to figure out better ways to manage it. But I think that product marketing has a hard time getting to the proverbial leadership table because they don't do this. But it's the same concept as why a CMO has a hard time because you're not owning a number. So the board's like, okay, marketing's here. Great.
Ali (14:17.889)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (14:28.075)
Yep.
That is very often what happens. Yep. So you talk about that a lot too. Marketing leaders don't get fired for bad marketing. I saw that post and your how not to get fired as a CMO guide. So you've said about aligning with CEOs. I'd imagine CFO probably falls in there too. The board, as you mentioned, I'd love to hear if there's anything that comes to mind, like just.
Kyle Lacy (14:39.562)
Yeah.
Kyle Lacy (14:44.063)
Yep.
Ali (14:56.395)
Biggest missteps, you look back and are like, like that's what I was doing wrong. And like biggest light bulb moments you've had now as you've tried to like communicate the value of marketing to those stakeholders.
Kyle Lacy (15:08.541)
So yeah, I would say I've got a lot. I fail quite a bit. I think the first one is I have over rotated on revenue marketing metrics and not communicated the foundational element of marketing, which is brand. And so if you're in a boardroom and you are over rotating to pipeline and conversion,
you're never going to get to the conversation around what I believe truly matters, which is messaging, positioning, and brand. They care, the board will always care more about whether you have coverage and you're going to hit a bookings number. So you have to be able to, I've done that really well once, a couple other times where I have not done that well. You know, but the most important thing is that you try to balance the two and they will always care more about
Ali (15:54.219)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (16:00.544)
No.
Kyle Lacy (16:03.743)
the stage two conversion for the mid-market pipeline for North America, then they will, whether your billboard campaign worked or not. But what they'll love more is if a peer of theirs texts them or forwards them a message of your billboard, then your conversion rate.
Ali (16:10.945)
No.
Ali (16:20.439)
That's so true. I love it. Do you think, is it fair to almost say you have to cover and really emphasize those pipeline and revenue and bookings metrics so that you also have permission to talk about and demonstrate the brand impact?
Kyle Lacy (16:36.095)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because look, you've people have said this.
at length forever, which is you cannot celebrate marketing wins if you didn't hit your bookings number. I don't, I'm still very confused on why we have to keep saying this. I still run across multiple stories of marketing leaders presenting company wide that they hit their top of funnel goals and the sales leader gets up and they miss their bookings number by 20%.
And it blows me away that that still happens. It is so tone deaf. And then everybody wonders why go-to-market leaders have a tenure of like 14 months or something ridiculous.
Ali (17:24.683)
Yeah, yeah. Lost the thread. Yeah. No.
Kyle Lacy (17:26.879)
Like read the room. Marketers listening to this. You can't... You have to celebrate as a team. You have to lose as a team. That's a soapbox I could talk for an hour on, but I'll stop. But I think that the most important thing is that you're communicating a full strategy and not just what you think people want to hear, but keeping in mind what the room is expecting. Not what you want to share.
Ali (17:35.606)
Yeah.
Ali (17:39.895)
Our truth.
Ali (17:58.071)
Whew, that's good stuff. And again, like maybe not the background that everybody in marketing who finds themselves like up at a CMO seat, you know, has been trained in how to have those conversations and.
Kyle Lacy (18:10.079)
Yeah and be okay with walking into a room and being super pumped about a brand campaign and presenting it and getting crickets and guess what? That's fine. Move on. Or you could get people... I had a great... one of my roles, I had a great board. Very brand focused. They were very supportive but there were certain cases where we missed a number and maybe we could have been more on it if we weren't so brand oriented.
Ali (18:32.801)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (18:37.087)
No, no, it's a balance. Yeah, that makes sense. Yep. I agree. All right, so you don't have to give the whole thing away. I know you talk about this and have shared it in your newsletter, but you've got your CREM acronym. Do you call it CREM? I love it. Communication, revenue, enablement, and metrics. Can you talk just a little bit about that?
Kyle Lacy (18:38.571)
You got to balance like everything, anything in life. Balance is important.
Kyle Lacy (18:54.037)
creme de la creme.
Kyle Lacy (19:02.323)
Yeah, so I think that the one of the main rules of a CMO is to build alignment between all the other go-to-market motions. I think you are the tip of the spear. You are responsible for everybody moving in one direction. And the only way you can do that is by being proactive about aligning teams towards goals. So
CREM is just an acronym to say communication is important. We talked about the reporting. We talked about the how you report that out to the company. You know it could be a weekly email that you send everybody on pipeline attainment as an example. But you owning communication of the pipeline not RevOps or anyone else. You owning the communication. Revenue.
is just that aligning under a revenue number and bookings number. Report on bookings. Don't just report on pipeline. What's the E? Enablement I think is also enablement is important because sometimes it's not under marketing. A lot of times it's under sales. And I think enablement is an all encompassing function that should
Ali (20:11.689)
Enablement.
Kyle Lacy (20:29.018)
support every part of the funnel, not just sales. And usually enablement tends to skew that way for a lot of reasons. But I'm a proponent of enablement being like a central player in making sure everybody's aligned. And without enablement, this stuff doesn't work because your team doesn't know what the hell's going on. So enablement or training, but it worked better than the acronym. And then metrics is actually tracking and reporting.
Ali (20:49.804)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (20:57.578)
aligning under business level metrics, which kind of plays into revenue, but also brings in GRR, NRR, customer acquisition costs aligning with your CFO to understand what they care about. And a lot of marketers don't do that either. The CFO ultimately does not care whether the money comes from sales or marketing. They care about the sales and marketing number, the line item, and the P &L.
That's sales and marketing. So creme de la creme. I don't even know why I came up with that. I think it just fit the acronym but that's that's kind of how I frame alignment within a company.
Ali (21:29.431)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (21:35.548)
Yeah.
Ali (21:41.431)
I like it. Could you give an example of something that would fall into the enablement category that's not sales enablement?
Kyle Lacy (21:50.123)
New employee onboarding Which it blows my mind that it's not run by the same team I don't understand why there's a separation of the two because every single person coming into a software company should understand the product and how to pitch the product So I think co-ownership of enablement between talent and an enablement team with new employees is important I think that when they're sales oriented, they don't think about how do you enable marketing?
on something. I think all marketers should be demo certified. Which is not something that we're doing that we don't we're not ready at. Dochevo. You know getting product certified is a little bit different than demo certified. Right. I believe all CMO should be demo certified. I believe all CMO should be able to pitch like the CRO. And if you're only sales oriented you're not thinking that way. But think about any cross-functional project.
Ali (22:31.041)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ali (22:41.879)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (22:46.666)
product launches, great example, you're enabling more than just the sales team. And if you only have a sales enablement person, they're only going to orient towards the team that they're supporting because they usually report into the sales leader.
Ali (22:48.513)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Ali (23:03.551)
Right. Yeah. That's interesting. Okay.
Kyle Lacy (23:05.63)
So those are a few, I'm trying to think of one that's a little off off kilter here a little bit. Events, event enablement. Like you should have pretty deep enablement leading up to an event for everyone attending, not just sales. Enablement on content production. Like if you're going to produce a report. Yeah, if you're going to produce a report that has
Ali (23:18.838)
No.
Ali (23:25.174)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (23:30.291)
No.
Kyle Lacy (23:36.158)
that has data that you put together, which you all do quite a bit. The sales team, actually the company should know what's in the damn report, because they're probably not gonna read it. But enablement is part of that. It's like, okay, we're producing this, this is why it's important to the people that are downloading it or reading it if you don't have a download. Here are the three things you need to know as the company if anybody asks you about it. That's enablement.
Ali (24:01.367)
Yeah, it's a whole marketing strategy in and of itself there.
Kyle Lacy (24:06.717)
Well, I mean, how do you view an implement?
Ali (24:10.867)
I mean, my mind goes to sales enablement as soon as you say enablement. So I like that you're challenging that. That it doesn't have to be just that,
Kyle Lacy (24:17.715)
But I think, I think train, I think enablement gets cornered into this idea that you can't like me, me and Nate, me onboarding an engineer at Dochevo is almost as important as onboarding an account executive. Cause I don't want that engineer to churn. They're, they're free. Like all of us are very expensive to fill if we leave. And a lot of times they're separated for some reason. And it just doesn't, it doesn't, that doesn't like.
Makes sense to me.
Ali (24:48.479)
Yeah, no, it's super interesting. There's definitely a bigger push here at DataBox than probably anywhere else that I've worked for everybody to be really comfortable with the product. And now we're getting more and more into use cases. And that's like, we should all be testing our own, building our own use cases familiar with why customers would actually want to use the product. So that's been interesting. I think that would fall into your bucket because that's a much
Kyle Lacy (24:59.943)
Yeah.
Kyle Lacy (25:15.665)
Yeah, it's very hard to do. It's very hard to do as well.
Ali (25:17.303)
It's hard to do. It is hard to do. Yes, it is. Especially as we move more and more from a of like dashboarding tool towards a more complex BI system. That's not the background for a lot of us. So it is challenging. But also, we lean a lot into our customers and our partners and see how they're using the product. And then
Kyle Lacy (25:27.411)
Yeah.
Kyle Lacy (25:40.118)
But I think it's this concept of a real world enablement. can, you can, I mean, we sell, we sell enablement software. mean, that dochevo is training enablement, L and D learning, right? That's what we sell. And I can, we can take the training all day long, but if my team's not practicing it in real world scenarios, which we offer, then they're not learning.
Ali (25:46.26)
Mm-hmm.
Ali (26:06.199)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Lacy (26:09.169)
All they did was retain the information and they can spout out what a feature does. But actual practicing and training of it is super important because then you evolve. You evolve your understanding of the product. You can pitch it to somebody and it means something and you're not just regurgitating what a product marketer or an enablement person wrote. It's very important.
Ali (26:13.739)
now.
Ali (26:30.333)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is. It's hard to prioritize. I think that's probably the biggest struggle that we still have. Like everybody knows it's important. And then you're just like, when... Yes, yes, that was the goal. That was the goal during the onboarding. Yep.
Kyle Lacy (26:34.984)
It is.
Kyle Lacy (26:41.001)
But that's why you do it at the beginning. That's why you do it in onboarding.
Kyle Lacy (26:47.793)
I know, I know. It's always the goal. It's very easy for you and for the two of us to sit here and wax poetic about it. It's much harder to implement.
Ali (26:54.857)
Yeah, it is, it is, but it's good to still try. It's a good goal to have. Awesome. All right, I want to be respectful of your time. Any other things you wish I had asked? Final questions or thoughts?
Kyle Lacy (26:59.379)
Yeah, there.
Kyle Lacy (27:07.785)
My final thought is, I think it's very important to always note that what we do, I believe, is one of the harder roles in a company as a marketer. And we're all in this together. And it's okay to have tough days and hard days and days you want to quit.
because the amount of context switching we have to do as individuals, as marketers, I think is different than any other group or team in the company. And I think it's okay to say, to raise your hand and say, you know, I need a break or I'm having a hard time, I need to switch up. And I don't think that's said enough. And whether, no matter what you're measuring, it's important to take a break sometimes. That's my final thought.
Ali (28:00.119)
Thank you. That makes me feel seen as a marketer and I'll share too. I mean, just reading through a lot of your posts and I love that you also are pretty open about sharing, like being a working parent. And I also have young kids and that's a lot to balance as well. And I just, appreciate that you're open about that. You know, it's a lot. It's not easy.
Kyle Lacy (28:17.481)
It's not easy. It's not easy. And anybody who pretends that it is, is lying. And we should know that.
Ali (28:25.506)
No. Solidarity. I appreciate it. All right. Where can people find you? What's the best way for people to reach out? Stay in touch.
Kyle Lacy (28:28.273)
Solidarity, for sure.
Kyle Lacy (28:33.541)
LinkedIn. LinkedIn is where I usually spend my time as you've referenced, but revenue diaries is where I write. You can search both those and I am there.
Ali (28:46.423)
Sounds great. All right. Thanks so much for joining.
Kyle Lacy (28:48.913)
Thank you for having me, it was a pleasure.
Ali (28:50.743)
Same here.