From Adam Robinson vs 6sense, to Hubspot vs Salesforce, there are plenty of SaaS companies starting public fights with competitors. But could it be the ultimate marketing play for you? Or are you just asking for trouble?
In this episode, Raul and Toni talk about their favorite company fights, when you should consider picking a fight, and how to identify an enemy to go after.
In this episode, Raul and Toni talk about their favorite company fights, when you should consider picking a fight, and how to identify an enemy to go after.
Creators & Guests
What is Revenue Brothers?
What happens when a VC and a CEO come together?
– They nerd out about all things revenue. And they don’t always agree.
Raul Porojan of Project A Ventures and Toni Hohlbein of Growblocks are the Super Revenue Brothers. In every episode they dissect and debate current issues in B2B SaaS, and offer solutions on how to solve them
No matter if you’re an early-stage startup or a scaling unicorn – you’ll always learn something new.
RB - How to start a fight
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Introduction and new format changes
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[00:00:00]
Toni: because they were reporters, suddenly real actual reporters showed up and actually covered the story and so forth. The original idea was not to stop at those demonstrators.
Toni: The original idea was actually to hire, a tank and put basically in front and basically making a thing like, hey, we need to attack this thing
Raul: hello, everyone. Welcome to the Revenue Brothers. You've heard that correctly, by the way. We'll talk about that in a second. I'm Raul. I'm here with Toni and we're super happy to have the next chat, uh, in this, this kind of little podcast that we have here. Toni, we have changed the name. We, we're doing a little bit of a relaunch here.
Raul: What's happening?
Toni: You know, I, I would say we're just growing up, you know, um, so one, when, when we started this thing out, we were like, Hey, we need to get past 20 episodes because that's the cutoff between everyone and, and, and the, the few that survive, apparently that's the jump. And now that we made the jump, we [00:01:00] decided to, Hey, let's be a bit more serious.
Toni: Let's maybe take the super out of the name. Let's maybe change the jingle a little bit, despite a lot of people actually liking it. Some, some didn't like it. And what comes with it is, we'll adapt the format a little bit. We'll still be Raul and I kind of chatting and talking about some, some topics, but also, We're going to start to have some pretty serious guests here on the show.
Toni: Two already lined up. We're not going to talk more about this, but pretty heavy hitters currently mostly from the German, I wouldn't even say startup scene. This is like beyond startup. This is grown up scene actually. Um, and, uh, discussing a couple of the go to market topics that are top of mind fast all the time, but with those folks, and I think people are going to like it.
Toni: I I'm pretty sure about that. Yeah,
Raul: most B2B startup founders, executives, they're not so versed in media yet. So it's a, it's a bit more raw as you [00:02:00] will see. And, uh, these people, they're not on the podcast every single week, uh, which is a bit, maybe you will get some insights that you won't get from the average San Francisco SaaS guy who's in three podcasts a week.
Toni: yeah, well, that's actually a good point. That's actually a really good point, but Raul, what are we talking about today? Actually?
Adam Robinson vs 6sense
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Raul: So since we're growing up now, uh, you and me, Toni, we're going to talk about something that grownup people sometimes do, which is pick a fight and, and, and what happens with that. There is actually a big fight going on right now, on LinkedIn. And, uh, you, maybe you can tell us more about that.
Toni: Yeah. So there's this guy, Adam Robinson, on LinkedIn. He is blowing up like, I don't know, a rocket right now in the best way. He has been doing a bootstrap startup, you know, up to 20 million is talking about this in public, you know, she has good news, bad news, kind of cool, but more recently launched a, , specific B2B SaaS or B2B product actually, which is for some of our, , thinner skinned [00:03:00] German listeners, maybe a bit of a creepy product.
Toni: So what he does is, , he can turn website visitors. into LinkedIn profiles that you then get sent as a Slack message. , how does that work? You may wonder. , he basically drops a cookie and then the cookie fires once that browser opens LinkedIn and then sees who is that LinkedIn person actually there, right?
Toni: So it's, that is some stuff that's, um,, forboden in, in Germany and the GDPR and all of that stuff. but it is working out in the U. S. Now, why am I saying that? Well, he has basically been picking a fight. Because you have all of these ABM intent vendors, , like a demand base, like 6sense, and he's been poo pooing over them, like quite a lot on LinkedIn.
Toni: He's very successful on LinkedIn. I think he went from 10, 000 followers last year to he's now almost 80 or something like this. , and, , he has basically been poo pooing so much over 6sense. that, , they got really, you know, pissed about it. , [00:04:00] and ,, they send a cease and desist letter to him, right?
Toni: Big 6sense and 6sense. I don't know. It's like, I think a thousand employees or more like this is 6sense is a big , right? And he is running, I think a 20 people, 30 people thing. , so 6sense sends a cease and desist, basically telling them to kind of never, you know, talk about them anymore.
Toni: What does that guy do? Now, first, first. What would every one of us do? Raul, actually, what would you do if you got a cease and desist from like a company, a thousand employees, 250 million in revenue heading towards, , IPO? Yeah.
Raul: I would find it amusing for sure. Uh, and then I would probably contact my lawyer immediately and then be like, okay, what do we do about this? And take it quite seriously, but I probably wouldn't do exactly what Adam did immediately, uh, as a, I don't know, first or second reaction.
Toni: So I don't even think he talked to his lawyers. I don't actually even think so. What he did is he took the cease and desist, um, [00:05:00] and put it on LinkedIn and basically was, uh, telling off 6sense big time that, no, I'm not going to keep trashing you and your brand and your product.
Toni: Uh, and this cease and desist letter, which he attached to the LinkedIn post is not going to scare me away. And he basically turned this into a big David versus Goliath kind of thing, which. You know, not only did his own post blow up, uh, into directly into his audience that he's targeting. So I think he's making a good chunk of money basically on the back of that post.
Toni: But also, and I've seen this now, plenty of other people jumping on the bandwagon, basically spoiling for a fight between David and Goliath and like all, all a rooting obviously with Adam and it's like, yeah, go show them, you know? And I think the topic here for today, is really The idea of, you know, picking a fight, maybe on purpose, maybe not, uh, I think he wasn't planning for the cease and desist to be clear.
Toni: But I think the interesting piece here [00:06:00] is, while many of us would have probably, immediately stopped talking about it and taking the super seriously. He actually used it and actually even gained momentum off the back of that, right? And really this, uh, you know, taking this fight and doing this publicly, thinking about this more as a marketing gig, I think, I think this is kind of pretty genius how he's pulling this off.
Raul: to start out though, and, uh, if everyone is now like, yeah, fuck you, I'm going to pick a fight with the next kind of company that I don't like. Or. And we have now started like, all kinds of LinkedIn wars. There's some specifics to this, of course, right. And, and, and Adam, as you said, has been blowing up on LinkedIn quite a bit before.
Raul: Now, I'm not sure that it worked out the same way if, if Mr, I don't know, first time startup founder with, uh, 500 people on LinkedIn, 500 followers would, would work out the same way, right? Maybe, maybe not actually, if he's got the right connections and. They would, they would post this further. So again, I don't know how consciously he did that.
Raul: And actually that would [00:07:00] be, that would be fun. Maybe we can talk to Adam sometime about this, but, um, there is a bit more method to that, right? So you have to maybe get to a certain point to bring, bring a bit more, uh, sort of predictability into that.
Toni: No. And also the, the reason why 6sense even picked up on him was because he was getting a lot of traction on LinkedIn. Um, kind of, that's how he kind of ended up on the radar there. Right.
Choosing and enemy for marketing purposes
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Toni: I think this whole, , choosing an enemy for marketing purpose. So, and obviously we're all friends and stuff, but for marketing purpose, choosing an enemy, I think this can be extremely.
Toni: Extremely powerful. Right. And I think a more, shall we say historic by now example is actually Salesforce versus Siebel. so who's Siebel? No one knows anymore. They're not around, but they were basically the biggest CRM on the planet, you know, back, I don't know, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, probably by now.
Toni: And then Salesforce came around, , and basically kind of Salesforce, where they were innovating is that they were basically in the cloud, you know, [00:08:00] Siebel and everyone else, Oracle, all of them were basically, , you need to install them in your server that you had in your office and so forth, like on prem stuff.
Toni: , and Salesforce was the first one not doing that, right? Kind of, they started the cloud. This is SaaS, basically what Benioff there invented. , and famously, and I'm not sure if you know the story, Raul, actually, and what he did is, , He actually went to a Siebel, , conference. , he staged, , he got, , actors to stage a demonstration outside of that conference center, like with all their customers and prospects and stuff, like was a thousand people there and more, , staged a demonstration outside of the, , the venue.
Toni: And. had actors also play a camera crew and a reporter, which, you know, and the demonstration was about, , no, no CRM or no on prem or, or, you know, no software. I think it was no software actually. It was kind of sounds super weird, but basically kind of, he was talking about the paradigm shift between, you shouldn't have that stuff on your on prem, [00:09:00] you should have it in the cloud.
Toni: And that's what they were demonstrating for. And it blew up, like, because they were reporters, suddenly real actual reporters showed up and actually kind of covered the story and so forth. I obviously never talked to Benioff, but the story continues, apparently, that, , the original idea was not to stop at, , stop at those demonstrators.
Toni: The original idea was actually to, and this is America, actually to hire, because you could just hire or rent, a tank and put basically in front and basically making a thing like, hey, we need to attack, you know, this thing. , and again, right at that point, Microsoft was a shitty small company. This was the David, , and Siebel was the Goliath and they were picking a fight like crazy.
Toni: And I've got tons of traction from that, right? Kind of attaching to the big guy and then them pulling them up. So that's kind of another of those, of those enemy stories that, that people are sometimes doing and leaning into.
Can you stage a fight?
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Raul: So [00:10:00] one of the things though, here is, uh obviously Siebel didn't emerge victoriously out of, I would say the whole war with Salesforce in general. So these kinds of approaches. As we maybe find out a bit more on how to do them, maybe. they all seem like there's only one winner to them.
Raul: Right. And so, uh, is that really the only way that this can go? And I was trying to think about, so for example, I'm still sitting in Asia, in Bangkok. , one thing that I found out here is, , as big as you think social media is , in Europe, it is. 10x as big here and people really celebrate fandom and celebrities and all that and they're really close and in tune with what's happening and everything And what they're really utilizing here a lot is drama between actors.
Raul: This guy, this, this guy, she had a fight with this guy, they broke up, they did this, whatever. , and so much of that is obviously fake, but it benefits both actors. And so the question in this case , is can you sort of do this in a way [00:11:00] that benefits both parties and it's sort of orchestrated to make 6sense better, but also Adam, or does it always have to have only one winner?
Raul: Because in the case here, 6sense is not looking like the good guy, right? Adam is sort of like the Robin Hood and taking from the rich. And 6sense is sort of looking like the evil, uh, corporate. Which I'm not sure that this is the right characterization.
Toni: yeah, the, so the way it works obviously, and also in the, in the actor drama, like it, like it does here now is, um, It's dramatic. It's a story. It's worth talking about. It's like, Oh, something is happening. Let's, you know, it's not, Oh, wow. There's another funding round. Congratulations.
Toni: Or the, Oh, there's another product was released. Wow. No, this is, this feels up and close and personal, right. And kind of, you want to know about this. And, and we're just so programmed to ask the next question. What's, you know, what's really behind this? You know, why is this happening? And then tell anyone else about this.
Toni: I wonder, and this is basically your question, right? Would you need to kind of think maybe a little bit, can this be staged? Like that's, [00:12:00] that's the thing, right? Because that's, what's happening with the actors, so to speak, can it be staged between different companies to leverage it and. The answer is probably yes, somehow, but , the reason why it usually works is, , one side is calling out one flaw on the other side that's very clear, actually, , and it wouldn't catch on and wouldn't work if there's some kind of, like, merit to the flaw, actually, and then, you know, I think it would be difficult for being on the receiving end of that.
Toni: Hey, there's a problem over there, right? Kind of that's, that's one thing, potentially. The other thing, and this is different between the actors, , what this Adam guy is doing is actually, , he's actually, , trying to, steal the audience from 6sense. You know what I mean? Kind of, you're going after the big guy.
Toni: And then the story is the big guy is being attacked by a small guy. And then everyone that knows the big guy is like, Oh, and now I need to know the small guy as well, right? Kind of, it's actually kind of, that's actually part of the [00:13:00] play, which in the drama, , within the actor kind of thing, I feel it's probably a little bit more equal, right?
Toni: They're probably on, on even footing and then basically kind of sharing the audience there.
Raul: Although not always. Like sometimes
Raul: there's There's like an unknown person who was together with another person and then they broke up and then suddenly that unknown person becomes famous just because of that. And so one thing that I do wonder about is not everyone knows 6sense. Is it even possible that this is a good thing for 6sense, right?
Raul: But the question at the day is what did 6sense really lose? Is it maybe a little bit of reputation? Okay, but then with what crowd? But is that maybe that their name got out more and we are even talking about it? And some people have heard about it and they're like, Oh, this is funny and all, but I'm still going to go with the established player.
Raul: Yes.
Toni: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a little bit like, bad news is also good news, basically, right? it's like bad publicity is good publicity, right? It's kind of to a degree, it's, it's actually that.
Toni: I think the real interesting question is actually, can this be fabricated or has it been fabricated [00:14:00] in, in a couple of cases?
Toni: And we've never noticed it. You know, it was a
Raul: and this is exactly my next thought. So if you think about this, and I've been thinking about this while you were speaking about this. HubSpot versus Salesforce. Right? This has been going on for maybe 10 years, 8 years. And it seems like there's basically no serious alternative to any of these two systems if you're really looking, well, nowadays you can go best of breed and whatever, but for a long time it seemed like this is the only two worlds you have to choose either one or the other, right?
Raul: Now, I'm not saying that they collaborated to do that, but this is certainly Not necessarily an unfavorable outcome for the two of them if you can split up the market in two rather than saying, Oh, but there's 20 different solutions. They're all have merit and you could go this and whatever and whatever.
Raul: It's a different kind of fight. If you look at Apple versus Microsoft, right? You could either gonna be Windows or Mac. Well, maybe there's different kinds of systems you could use. Android versus iOS, right?
Toni: no, I think it's a really, it's a really good point, right? Because especially the CRM market, I think there must be 200 different vendors or something like this [00:15:00] out there, right? 200. , and basically kind of the big two. HubSpot hasn't been the big one for a long time, actually, because the thing is, I mean, , they, and people might not remember this anymore, but HubSpot started out as just an email sending service, right?
Toni: Kind of, and some landing pages. That's,
Raul: landing pages. That was a big feature in the beginning.
Toni: they did the CRM, I want to say five years ago or something like this, , and they're basically. very quickly, you know, got to the point that you were just making. It's like out of the 200 other vendors, really it's Salesforce, Resource Hotspot.
Toni: And then you have all of those, and it's the same thing on LinkedIn, right? It's like people go crazy about these two things. And essentially, essentially you're right. They have been able to basically split the market in half. Instead of sharing with 200 different folks, it's really just those two and then the scraps for everyone else.
Identifying and naming your enemy
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Raul: I'm actually staring at a book right next to me that I've been, uh, recently reading. By the way, strong recommendation. It's Pat Flynn. I don't know if you know him. Big influencer on LinkedIn and everything, , super fans. It's basically on how to grow [00:16:00] your audience on LinkedIn, which is something I'm interested in lately.
Raul: , best book I've heard, I found on the topic. Very, really actionable five steps on how to actually turn fans into super fans. And one of the things that he's got as sort of a more advanced, , topic is also this. , harnessing sort of an identity , for your community and for your audience and having that as compared to another competitor, audience or enemy and finding some sort of enemy and naming that enemy.
Raul: And the stronger you actually, the enemy is stronger, the more you can identify him. And the strongest you can have is actually a person, but that's quite evil sometimes or a company, right? Cause the company is like, whatever, like nobody's really hurt. It's just a company. And so having, being able to pinpoint a specific company and say, these are the guys we are against not only makes it sort of like you're the underdog and everything, but it also unites you and the people that you follow into, it strengthens the community within you, right?
Toni: Yeah, and it actually is a, it's, it's a well known marketing play, actually. Um, so kind of really kind of trying to achieve what is the [00:17:00] enemy. Sometimes the enemy is the status quo. It's like, ah, you know, the way you're doing this, you know, The way you're solving this problem right now, that's the bad thing.
Toni: I think for many very successful companies, spreadsheets has been the enemy, by the way, killing spreadsheets, you know, eradicating spreadsheets. , for Slack, it was email, right? , I'm just kind of trying to kind of figure out what really was the comparison. And I think it can be extremely powerful, like super powerful, by the way, because it's such a simple purpose.
Toni: You know, think about this, the way you get people really moving emotionally is with like a, I don't want to say a mission, but like a reason , why should we be doing these things? And if you can encapsulate the why into , the opposite of that thing that you know really well, it's so much easier to communicate this, right?
Toni: Instead of saying, oh, our mission status is the following, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. , you can just say, oh, we want to kill email because it sucks, , or drift. We want to kill forms. I'm not sure, you know, how many people know that still, but drift is basically kind of a, website chat thing [00:18:00] when this was a new thing and they wanted to kill forms because that's terrible.
Toni: You need to fill in your information and you need to wait. And then, no, I want to talk to the brand right now. So, you know, our enemy is forms basically. , and , it can work extremely well. But, you know, and also for Growblocks, we're like, Oh, kind of, who's, who's the enemy, you know, um, and we ended up not finding a good one, actually.
Toni: And, and I think it's, I think it's fair and it's okay when someone can't pinpoint exactly what it is. I think having a convoluted enemy description is worse than having a, a crisp purpose and mission statement, so to speak, right? So if you have something that's super straight to the point. And extremely like, yeah, I hate this.
Toni: Every time this happens, I hate this. If, if it's not something like that, I would, I would advise people not to do it, actually. And
Raul: And
Raul: so in this case, I'm pretty sure. Nobody hates, I mean, basically nobody hates 6sense, so it's not like people are rallying now [00:19:00] behind Adam and there's a thousand comments almost, which is mind blowing, um, because people hate 6sense.
Raul: Why they do that is because they like being against the big guy, and they like being against the bully, and they like sort of, uh, being against someone abusing the power, so that's what this story is
Raul: about.
Toni: And, and the thing is, Um, and that's why, you know, that's why it's a bit difficult and different here actually. The thing is, people don't like bullies. That's the problem, right? And by 6sense sending this cease and desist, they became the bully. I think previously it was like, ah, yeah, that guy's, things like that feature of 6sense is shit and they're overpriced and it's like, ah, okay, cool, yeah.
Toni: You know, it's not really the enemy, he's just saying like, hey, my new solution is better. Yeah. Like for whatever reason, fair, fair game, 6sense made themselves into the bully that everyone just rallies against now. , and now, now they became the enemy, right? it's actually not about 6sense, the product anymore.
Toni: It's about 6sense, the evil corporation now. And, [00:20:00] And that's, that's again, extremely well, I'm not sure if planned, but extremely well executed. , and , if there's any takeaway from this year, by the way, sure. Think about. can you harness this being against something kind of, you know, figure out if you, if you can, and, and, and maybe that's going to help you internally, but also externally in your, in your marketing, but then number two, don't cave in almost, right.
Toni: Kind of, you know, lean into the fight or, you know, almost seek it out. There might be some crazy upside benefits. Obviously don't get into trouble legally. Yeah. Small disclaimer here, but I think if you do it and if you're not scared away from it or buy it, which I think I might've been, by the way, like, hands down, I'm not saying that I would have done exactly.
Toni: No, I would have been scared actually. Leaning into this can be extremely powerful, right? And that's, that's sometimes a bit, you know, difficult to think that way when it's your company on the line, basically.
Raul: but think about what it might do for Adam. So in this space for the people who have followed this, I mean, this is, we always have to [00:21:00] remember this is a minor part of a minor part of the world, which is a minor part of the universe. So this is like not interesting to 99. 9 percent of the people out there in the supermarket and your grandma and everything.
Raul: But for a couple of people who have followed this. They will probably never forget Adam Robinson or at least his face or at least this thing as Compared to some posts he would have written about how to calculate ARR better than someone else did it before 3 percent better or How I hired a good person, right?
Raul: so this is something that is memorable and that people will remember him by and I think that's the power of that and one more thing that I've been thinking about also here is Actually this being against something and having a clear something, it doesn't have to be in a company, how powerful that can be.
Raul: I don't know if you're familiar with be real. be real was like the hottest social thing. Basically be real is like a social media platform, like a Snapchat, but with no filters and you're being real, right? And so basically I don't know if it's still as [00:22:00] successful as it was. I haven't actually been following it, but I was there in the beginning and have seen a little bit with it.
Raul: Their claim was We are against the one thing that everyone actually is using and very familiar with, but it's not really liking and it's actually not good for you, which is like, Instagram, super polished social media. And we are the one real thing now out there. And I think that this is something that is like incredibly powerful.
Raul: If you can position yourself or something like this, and people really were embracing that because yes, everyone's using Instagram. Yes. Everyone's on social, but. They're not really happy about it, and they know that something's not right with it, and they know that it's like some fabrication with it, and I thought about another thing, I recently went out to lunch with a friend, and she's married, so it's not relevant for her anymore, but she was talking about like, she doesn't know a single person who actually likes online dating, who actually likes it, like they do it, But they don't like it, right?
Raul: Nobody likes Tinder. Like it's a bad experience for either side. There's a lot of time you have to spend on it. And if you're lucky, maybe you find a life partner or whatever you're looking for, [00:23:00] but not really, nobody's really like, Oh, I am so much happier in my life. Right. how powerful is this? If you come up with something, it'd be like, fuck online dating.
Raul: This is what we are against. We're actually going back to real, but you're actually facilitating it. Or, and that's the last one I'm thinking about, maybe the last one I'm thinking about right now. A lot of people don't like LinkedIn. Like, a lot of people don't like the way that LinkedIn has morphed and what people are talking about.
Raul: Like, if you go out there and you say, Hey, we bring you what you're actually looking for, which is business connections and knowledge and all that stuff, But fuck LinkedIn and all that self positioning and self grandizing and self applauding and all the echo chambers and everything. This is something that can be very powerful.
Toni: The other trick with the enemy is actually, by naming the enemy and pointing out what's wrong with it, you're basically also delivering your USP, your twist, your differentiator. Right. , , And all of this packaged into two sentences. And by the way, B2B SaaS and then software, and then what all of us are doing individually, super niche, like [00:24:00] crazy niche, like, you know, there are only so many people on this planet that actually care about that problem.
Toni: In many of those cases, it's really difficult to actually explain what it is like easily. Right. But if you have this enemy statement thing, right? Within a couple of sentences, sometimes two sentences, you can kind of make it very clear in someone's head what you are and why you're different.
Toni: And doing that in a couple of sentences, it can be extremely powerful because what happens next is that is a story that someone now understood and here it comes can retell. And, , that's so difficult with. all the convoluted shit that we're putting out in terms of, Hey, this is who we are.
Toni: That's what we want to do. If you have this super crystallized mini story, , that immediately in someone's brain unlocks like, boom, okay, I totally get it. Then this is so compact that they can retell it to someone else [00:25:00] easily. And then also make the other person get it. , and it's, you know, when you think about it, that happening with your very long mission state, it might be your pitch or whatever that happening with that.
Toni: Very unlikely, right? Very unlikely that it actually reaches the part of the brain of the other person. And it's like, Oh, I totally, absolutely get it. , and then it needs to overcome that threshold to like, Oh, I'm actually getting it so much, you know, that prospect that I now feel comfortable retelling it to someone else and then still landing with the other person.
Toni: Like, forget about it. But if you have that super crisp. Hey, , this is the enemy. This is what needs to be fixed, which is basically you. , super easy to retell, super easy to gain, you know, word of mouth and so forth.
Raul: And if you think about how they are going to retell that, right? So, if I would have that platform, and I would be able to tell my friend, Hey, this thing is basically Tinder online dating, but with all the other stuff that you don't like. People would be like, ah, that's amazing, let me get into that, right?
Raul: All the fakes, and all the long texts, and nobody replies, whatever. This is basically [00:26:00] email, but without all the bad stuff about email. There you go, Slack, right? This is basically Salesforce, but without all the clunkiness and all the stuff that nobody likes about Salesforce. That's a great pitch that you can give to someone else in one sentence.
Toni: that's it. I mean, I think we went from Adam Robertson over Salesforce, Salesforce being the David, to Salesforce being the Goliath against, uh,
Raul: yes.
Toni: we went, we went through a full
Raul: You either, how is it? You either die David or you live long enough to become Goliath.
Raul: that's it.
Toni: it. And we talked about dating apps even. I mean, that's, that's, that's the first. but yeah, Raul, thanks a bunch again for having this conversation. I hope people are taking something away from this.
Raul: Thanks, Toni.
Toni: Have a good one, everyone. Bye bye.
Raul: Have a good one.