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Being STRONG is more than just how much weight you can lift.
The Strong New York Podcast is dedicated to inspiring you to become your strongest self- in the gym, in business, in relationships and in life.
Join Kenny as he sits down with his strong as fuck buddies and shoots the shit on what it takes to be strong willed, strong minded and physically strong. Season one features everyone from entrepreneurs and local business owners to doctors and industry leaders in the fitness and wellness space.
With over a decade of experience, Kenny Santucci has made himself known as one of New York City’s top trainers and a thought leader in the health and wellness industry. After transforming his life at 15 years old through fitness, Kenny made it his mission to transform the lives of those around him.
Kenny has trained some of Hollywood’s biggest stars, including Jon Bon Jovi, Liev Schreiber, and Frank Ocean, and has been tapped as a fitness expert sharing his training approach with Men’s Health, Men’s Journal, Runner's World, SHAPE, Well+Good, among other publications.
Kenny is the creator of STRONG New York, NYC's only Health and Fitness Expo. Strong New York is an immersive day of workouts, wellness experiences, panel discussions, and inspiring conversations with the best in-class wellness professionals, industry leaders, and change makers who are sharing their expertise on today's hottest wellness trends and first-hand experiences on how to optimize your overall health and life.
You can find Kenny at The Strength Club, his private training and group strength training facility in the heart of Manhattan located on 28th and 5th Ave in New York City.
Ready to rock and roll.Welcome back to another episode of the Strong New York Podcast.I'm your host, Kenny Santucci.And do not forget, go to strongnewyork.com, because Strong New York is coming up September 26th at The Glass House on 48th and 12th Avenue.It is New York City's biggest fitness and wellness event.We're gonna have some of the top brands, we're gonna have some of the top speakers, some of the top trainers in New York and around the country, even around the world, coming to a one-day fitness event here in New York City.You don't wanna miss it.And speaking of the brands that will hopefully be there, one of my favorite little products that I've beenObviously, you know I'm obsessed with caffeine.The world is obsessed with caffeine.That's why there's a coffee shop on every corner-in New York City.Uh, we're, we're slamming Celsius, we're slamming energy drinks, and the new hotness are these little bad boys right here.They are called Whip.It is a clean energy, uh, pouch.You just throw it in your mouth.I've been on these for 3, 4 months now, because of this gentleman.I got to have breakfast with Richard, uh, what was that, back in February, maybe?Yeah, about then.Yeah.And I was just so impressed with you and the brand and what you guys were doing.I was like, "IThis is exciting.It's fun."And it- you had said something that stuck with me, and I say it to everybody now.I'm a huge energy drink guy.Yeah.I've always been.Obviously, the, this business is a multibillion dollar business.I mean, there's new brands popping up all the time.But you had said, you were like, "In the morning, when I'm gonna go work out, I don't wanna feel all the bubbles and finish a whole drink."I go, "You know what?""That kind of fucks me up in the morning."Y- yeah, exactly.So, we have a solution to the product, and I think we demonized caffeine for so long.Take us through, you know, the birth of the product, why you guys kinda came up- Yeahwith this.Yeah.I mean, um, well, thanks for having me.Oh- Fun to hang out with you- I appreciate itas always.In your gym where I've worked out.This is the place to be.I appreciate it.Um, yeah, I mean, caffeines, caffeine is one of the most studied ingredients, certainly the most studied stimulant in human history.Mm-hmm.Tons of benefits for it, both cognitive, neurologically, obviously physiologically, gives you a bunch of energy.Um, there's a ton of benefits for it.Um, we know th- 85% of Americans consume caffeine every day.So, it's widely used.People continue to consume more of it.But people want cleaner caffeine.They want something that's more convenient- Sureat the gym and elsewhere.And then, you know, all these energy drinks add up.They're a little b- they can, they can get a little pricey if you- Sureif you take more than one or 2 a day.So, they, you know, they're hu- it's rare for there to be a huge category and for there to be some unmet needs.And, uh, and the wave of pouches has happened over the past, you know, 5 years or so.Yeah.It's- Why is that?Where, what- Well, I mean, I think there's, like, a few, there's probably, like- Because they've been around forever.They have.But, you know, I think there'sIt certainly has been with a nicotine.Ours have no nicotine.Mm-hmm.But, um, but there are 3 things that work really well.The, the first is that it's a really, we say, efficacious, you know, delivery system.It just works, um, on, um, the way that you absorb the active ingredient.So, you can, has a, it has an output w- that you can, you, you can discern.The second is that it can just taste good.So, there's a good sensory experience with it.And the last is, like, it's just kinda fun.Mm.Um, there's an enjoyment factor that's, like, a little harder to put 4 corners around.So, that worked in other categories, you know, namely with nicotine.But a pouch, a good pouch could, you know, solve those me- needs that I mentioned that we, that exist in the caffeine category well.Um, and other things possibly could as well.We just w- saw that for a category as large as caffeine and energy is, and that's pre-workouts, that's energy drinks, that's coffees, ready-to-drink coffees, even caffeinated sodas.People, you know, people want energy to train harder, to work harder, maybe even to go out harder, and a pouch could be really good.The business actually spent 2 years before I joined, um, developing a breakthrough formulation.200 milligrams in one pouch.Um, it w- in a size that was rather discreet, with a flavor that was awesome, um, in a way that nobody has, nobody had done and nobody has still yet to do.And now we've got 200 milligrams, just like a Celsius in a pouch.Um, we have 100 milligrams, which is more like a cup of coffee in a pouch.Mm-hmm.Um, bunch of flavors and bunch of new stuff on the horizon.So, one of my, uh, one of the guests that we've had at Strong New York, he had spoke a couple years back.He's become a friend over the years, Dr. William Li, who talks about the, uh, you know, how important caffeine is and how it is a genuinely good product for you, for, you know, neurological stimulation and- Yeahyou know, overall health.Why do you think it gets such a bad rap?Because so many people, like, you said 85% of people are consuming caffeine.So, just to give people out there a, an idea of, um, you know, because everybody thinks they go to the gym, right?We're, we're gym rats.We never miss.But only 30% on the high end, 30% of people in New York City and, and around the country have a gym membership.Yeah.And that means only 30 to 50% of that are actually using their gym memberships.So, it's a very small percentage of the population are actually engaging in going to the gym, but it seems like everybody goes to the gym.To think that 85% of the population, that's a massive- Rightportion.Why does it have such a negative stimu- uh, uh, uh, you know, idea aroundWell, y- I mean, I think you know, you hear more of the negative perspective on caffeine than possibly I do.I mean, I, I think that, you know what, we've spent a lot of time talking to consumers, doing focus groups- And people use caffeine throughout their day.Um, and really, like, you know, I, I'm lucky to be in the gym with you today.I don't, I don't get to work in a gym.I'm at a desk a lot of my time.But a lot of people have jobs that are physically demanding.Um, we know that we're a product, and we've talked to them, people that work on, you know, active job sites, construction sites, um, more labor-intensive jobs.They need energy to get through their day, but their day doesn't end at the workday.They'll play on sports teams.They'll volunteer with their kids.They'll play in a band.Their, their lives are more complicated and demanding than we think, and so caffeine is a really high-quality ingredient to provide, you know, fuel for all that people do.I, I think that there'sI think the one thing that people might talk about with regard to caffeine is they just don't know how much they're consuming.So, um, you know, take, take this product.You know, you have toI, IAnd I'm notThis isn't, like, a shtick.I just- Yeah, yeahpicked this up.And so I'm- I think there's, like, what, 100 milligrams in here?Yeah, now I'm looking to figure out how much caffeine is in it, and I'm still trying to find it.Yeah.So- I don't- To tell you the truth, I don't even know how much is in it.I think it's, like, 100, 150.Yeah.So I th- Let's- Maybe 200?I, I'm trying to dr- I thought that it was 200, but I can't find it.It's probably 200 because I know that, like, there's another company called Bucked Up, and they have, like, an energy drink, and it's, like, 300 milligrams, and I can't drink the whole can- I, I-'cause I'll be crawling.My skin will be crawlingTotally.Yeah.So I think that that's part of the problem.You know, not everyone knows that, you know, a Starbucks large coffee is about 380 milligrams of caffeine.Mm-hmm.That's likeSo I think that one of the challenges with caffeine is, like, what the hell am I actually consuming- Sureand how much am I doing?And nobody wants to feel, you knowEv- everyone was trying to optimize for a certain sort of outcome, whereas we, you know, we have 100 milligrams of caffeine per pouch.It's veryIt's like, it's like dosing.Yes, that'sLike, you can see, you can see it, and you, and you know what your own bioavailability.So if you takeI've got a pouch in right now.It's 100 milligrams.After using it one or 2 times, I know how long I wanna keep it in for how much of that.So I think that that control mechanism is really helpful.And so people just don't wanna feel, you know, in a way that they didn't intend to.Yeah, so now if I put a pouch in, how does that 100 milligrams get dispersed over time?You mean, like, how long does it take?Yeah, how long- Yeahdoes it take to fully- I mean, like, a full is about 15 minutes.Okay.Yeah.But you'll start to feel it after about 5 minutes, and, um, and then you'll get most all of it within about 15.I'll tell you what.Like, now that I've, I've adopted this, I promised myself this year that I would get up in the morning, go to the gym every morning before my day starts, 'cause I get the most important thing in my day out of the way, the first thing.Um, I've been enjoying just taking this because it lights me up.Yeah.I have a 5minute walk to the gym 2 blocks away from my apartment.I go there, or I'll come here earlier.I'll do a workout- Yeahand I'm ready to go, and I don't have to deal with that, like, bubble.Now, I still enjoy drinking energy drinks.Totally.I enjoyI, I drink coffee.Like, I have at least once a day, I'll have a coffee, a Celsius, and I'll take a Whip.Great.I think, for me, I would find that most people who are working at a desk or sitting at a computer would need more caffeine than somebody on, like, a job site or something.Like, I, I- Well, it just gets so boring to sit at a desk all day.Exactly.Yeah.So for me, like, I worked a desk job for about 11 days before I fucking almost stabbed myself in the eye with a pen.Um, even here, like, when we have to dosit on Zooms or whatever, I'm like, "I can't fuck."No, it's brutal.I have to pop something- Totallyor drink something because I'm gonna start to lose it- Yeahin the middle of it.So when coming up with a product like this, it's a new category.Nobody else is doing.Now you have other products out on the market.You have the, a lot of the nicotine pouches that are blowing up.Uh, Zyns and Ultra and all these brands.Um, do you see them as a competitor?Are they in the same category?Yeah, I mean, ISo I think we're pretty clear that n- we have no nicotine in our product.Mm-hmm.And nicotine's a very specific compound.Um, it's very hard to replicate what people want for it, and I don't wanna be the poor man's anything.Yeah.So if you want nicotine, I think that, you know, you're going to be disappointed if you don't have nicotine.And I think that when you see people that are trying to be nicotine alternatives, um, you- the, the repeat rate for those con- those products are pretty low.So, but I think that for people who have familiarity with pouches, they also want energy, and people will have a predisposition to being open to use ours.But you know, ultimately, we want a better source of energy for people, whether they're using any competitive product of ours like that in a pouch format or an energy drink, a pre-workout, a coffee, whatever it is.So I think the, for a category that's emerging, I'm not really intimidated by any competitor- Yeah.Surebecause we're all, you know, m- a bit more is more.We've done independent studies, and we demolish the competition on both the strength of our product, that, that efficaciousness, thatI wish there was a less lame word, but- Yeah, yeahbut we just, like, demolish the competition on efficaciousness and on the flavor profile.So you kind of have to wi- if you can win on those 2 things, then you're gonna win the long game.Yeah.And that's where we are.Well, we talk about this all the time on the shows.If a product doesn't taste good, it's so hard to sell it.Totally.You know?And for me, the, the few times I'veI think I've done a nicotine pouch maybe 3 times in my whole life.Yeah.And nicotine justBecause I've been watching some of the studies where people are talking the health benefits of it, you know, the neurological stimulation- Yeahand everything, I'm like, "All right, cool.I'll give it a whirl."But fucking sends me flying.Right.Like, it makes me loopy.Yeah.I don't like the way I feel- Yeahon it.Whereas with caffeine, I'm like, "I got this jolt of energy.I'm ready to go."Totally.I kind of just feel better.Yeah.I getWell, like, I think people, people have sort of moved into the nicotine pouch, and there's a bunch of reasons why they have.By and large, they still need some energy.I think that we can ride along with that.We can bePeople can use it if they're weaning.Um, but that's a different, that's a different game.We just know that, you know, most Americans consume some energy product, whether it's caffeine or otherwise, and we jam on it.So now s- who comes to you and says, "Hey, we're working on this great new product.It's been around for 2 years"?You have a pretty impressive resume.You've done a lot of- Thanksstuff, and we'll kind of dig into that in just a little bit.when somebody first approaches you about this, you're likeYou get- You could pretty much go anywhere and help a brand grow.Why this one?Well, um, yeah, I, I, I actually, I was working with a career coach.Okay.She's sort of more like an agent/manager, and theThis amazing woman.Her name's Valerie Germaine, which sounds like a name out of fiction.Like, whose name thatIt's, umAnd so we f- I was thinking about what my next chapter would be, and actually wrote in aI've gotta find this Google Doc, but wrote a Google Doc, sort of like a personal manifesto of what my next chapter would be.I love consumer brands.Um, I like when there's, like, an innate new solution for consumers.Um, and then the hard part is, like, I like building brands that kind of get to tap into culture, which is, like, a harder thing to, likeAnd so hit send, hit print, you know, finished, feltYou know, with the edits.And then 3 weeks later, I heard about, you know, what this, this team had been developing.And it was like, holy shit.Like, I can't believeTh- this is, like, too, too quick to get to the answer.So met the team that had been at it, and, um, and so got to kn- They, they started with a 200 milligram product.They developed that.They'd done a pilot launch to, like, see what consumer reaction was, which was bananas.They sent me some product.I took it out to the beach.My friends went nuts over it.The 24-year-old liquor delivery guy came to drop off some booze, and so I was handing him a tip, and people were like, "Oh, give him one of those pouches."So I handed himAnd then I was like, "Oh, there's no nicotine in it."But he knew exactly what to do, popped it open, took one out, putted it, put it in, let it settle in for, like, 2 or 3 seconds.I'll f- you know, I'll remember this forever.Yeah.Let it settle in.He goes, "Fuck yeah."And then he, like, floated as he walked out the door.It's like, well, I guess what I know what I'm doing next.And so, uh, you know, the question you asked, wh- how did I know and why was this, is that there's a clear consumer need with a big opportunity.And so I'm not really inclined to kind of pussyfoot.Like, if we're gonna do something, let's really fucking go for it.And, um, and you, but you can only do that if you've got a great product.And so the product was awesome.Um, some work that we need to do to expand the product portfolio to make it resonant with enough people, but you know, we have a product that gives people energy to be more athletic, to work harder, to be more social.It just gets to tap into so many different parts of people's lives- Yeahthat makes building a brand really fun.Well, I, I'm a big fan of feel.Like, I like going to certain places 'cause it makes me feel better.I like taking certain products 'cause I feel better on it.I think there's a lot to be said about that.Uh, I think caffeine makes me feel better.Like, I like it.I enjoy it.Yeah.If you wanna call it an addiction, sure, but I could do without it.I was just over in France, and I didn't have energy drinks.Right.And I had some pouches with me, but during the day when I got up, I could go a couple hours without a cup of coffee.I don't start to feet-foot.Right.But I think the way you're positioning it, and you're steering this ship-through some rough waters, because nowadays having a brandI just had a young lady here on, who was, uh, she has a, um, a Greek yogurt company, uh, called Sour Milk.It's actually really good, and we were just chatting about how hard it is to kinda be the head, the captain of the ship- Yeahand try to figure out how to position it, where to position it, with who.I think you're doing a really good job, 'cause you're making it fun and cool.Even if you didn't see it that way, like, the, the way the packaging is, like, it's very user-friendly.It's cool.It's energetic.Yeah.How much of this isAnd, like, the c- the merch, I love the merch.Thanks.I'm still waiting on some of those other shirts.Okay.We'll hook you up.I, yeah, I, I need to get some of those other shirts.Because the, you guys are doing really cool collaborations.You guys are positioning yourself as this fun, kinda Gen Z, millennial product.Um, how much of that is experience you've had from other brands versus, like, what you're trying to do with this, and kinda taking some chances at it- Yeahthrowing some shit up against the wall?Well, I mean, we're, we're, we're still in early days.We're, we launched, you know, just shy of a year ago.Sure.And, and we're tackling a huge opportunity.You know, this is, like, an everyday product for most every American, and we don't have Coca-Cola's budget.Like- Yeah, yeahwe can't be doing, we're not, you're not gonna see a Super Bowl ad f- from us this year.Um, and, and so what we really need is for people to amplify and share the word for us as much as possible.And so for a product that's innately discreet, you've gotta let people broadcast it.And yeah, we, we love merch, because we've got walking billboards out there, and I get plenty of, like, pics of Whip in the wild from people that have merch they're wearing or, you know, that they're wearing.Um, but I think the most important thing is that people, we wanna drive trial.So, generally when people try the product, then they're gonna tell other people about it.But you've gotta, like, you know, you've gotta, like, prime the pump to let people be open to trying.So, we've worked really hard on our, on our packaging and our brand identity so that it would, um, communicate intimate energy.Mm-hmm.We, um, you know, I think that we need something that somebody, if they're going to a yoga studio or a fire d- you know, an apartment house, a firehouse- Mm-hmmthat they're gonna be just as likely to pick up the product when they see it at retail.So, you tr- you know, I think one thing that's hard in the early days is, like, how do you not, how do you be resonant enough with a narrow enough group that there's gonna be repeat and frequency and awareness of the, but you don't paint yourself into a corner that you can't grow from that?And so I think we did some of that, some of that work we did well, and then there's a lot of stuff that we've learned alongSo, you just saw Charlie's shirt, and he had that, um, dark split.I think some people see that and s- they're like, "Wow, it's so aggressive," but that brand is, like, like, $100 million company.Amazing.And it's doing really well.With this, you know, I'm going through this process right nowSo, we have the podcast.We have the event.We have our clothing.We have the gyms.Yep.HowI don't wanna be something for everybody.Right.And if I go too far down my rabbit hole of, like, shit I like, I end up creating stuff like that.Yep.Um, I'm having a hard time, and I'm sure there's other people out there who question the same thing.You've steered big brands before.You might not have the budget now, but at 1 point you were working with some really big brands- Yeahwith huge budgets.I have, like, 3 people I'm kind of interviewing now to help me kinda come up with, like, a creative storytelling art design.How many times have you been through that process with different brands and it just doesn't work out?Because I've spent, in the last 2 years, close to 60 grand- Yeahon, like, working with different creative teams on this, and I'm just like, "Nobody's getting what the fuck I'm trying to do here," right?Like, you sit there and you're sitting in this creative place.Yeah.Are you a part of that, and, like, how much is that trial and error, like, happen?Well, it, so, uh, yeah, I think the visual mani- manifestation of the brand- Super importantit's, like, critical.And, um, and you wanna give leash to the team to be able to do their stuff, but ultimately, you know, somebody has to have an understanding of the essence and the core of what it is.I think, and, and it's worked to varying degrees in every company- YeahI've been at.But I think the, you know, what, what works well generally is when somebody in your shoes or my shoes that's, you know, not in Figma or, you know, on the Canva, you know, with the mouse figuring it out, is you find a real creative partner that you feel that you have, um, that you canThat you don't need to adjust your syntax of how you speak for them to understand what you're saying.Sure.Right?Yeah, I get what you're saying.And, and I think that's like, that's like I've brought people through different companies that I've had some history with, partially because like I am a little bit of a fixed variable.So like there is a way that I communicate, for better or worse, it's just that is how I communicate.And so people that kind of can understand what I'm trying to express through the words that I'm using- Mmor know how to probe with the questions to like get me to say it in a different way.When there's a mismatch with, you know, creative, I think that sometimes it can be that the, that there's a separation that happens and it just starts to venture in a different direction.Or that there's just not that shorthand between the 2 of you that you actually know what the other's trying to say.And then the last thing is like, I think that what- while I think that we have a platform to build a brand for a lot of people is like we're actually really clearly focusing on a specific consumer now, and then we can always build from there.Who is that avatar?Well, I think it's a 25 to 35-year-old male skewing but not exclusively life maximalist.So I think that we allI mean, you probably fit into this if you're maybe a little younger, but, uh I'm a little olderBut I think we all know- Yeahthese people who opt into so many amazing things, and there's a little bit of like how do they do all of this stuff.Yeah, yeah, yeah.It's the captain of the football team that puts an arm around everyone and pulls everyone into the next adventure.Um, and they- Is that who you saw buying the product, or is that who you'd like to buy the product?that's another problem I have is like, okay, how do you pick your avatar?Because who consumes my product and who I want to consume my product might be 2 different people.Yeah.Well, not everyone gets to have that life.So but y- I think having some strategic target, some aspirational consumer- Okaythat, that we're, that somethingYou know, I would li- I wish that I was still 25 to 35.Yeah, yeah, yeah.I'm not.I get it.And I look at those people and draw a lot of inspiration for that.Okay.And so, um, and so that's like that's a great sort of place.And so everyone else, myself included, the people that work, that are sort of obligated into harder m- multitudinous lives sort of get to appropriate that same brand factor that we're d- designing the brand around.Does that make sense?Yeah.No, I mean, it, it makes total sense.I think some sort of aspirational character.I think that's where we start to go wrong sometimes with our business is I'm always like, "All right.Here's who's buying it," but that might not necessarily be who we want to buy it, so how do we like take a s- step up from that person?Who does that person wanna be?Yeah.I mean, if youLike, I think fashion's like a really interesting concept- Sureof like how they design the brands.Mm-hmm.You know, the volumes of people who are buying branded, you know, fashion or apparel are not what those campaigns look like.Mm-hmm.But so, you know, I worked at The Gilt Groupe early on.I worked at Bonobos.You know, not everyone in those, you know, that was buying Bonobos was like, you know- Looked like the guy on the- Looked like the guy.Yeah.And so, you know, if somebody's, you know, working a job and driving a minivan, you know, there's something you get to tap into when you pull on a pair of pants- Mmthat makes you feel a little bit different- Surethan doing that.And that's, you know, luxury goods is sort ofThat is like that's the, you're, you're, you're appropriating something by putting on a pair of glasses that have that logo on the side that doesn't reflect your- Makes you feel- It makes you feel some-like you're cooler than you actually are.Or yeah, I mean, maybe it's not e- you don't even necessarily need to like have a self-critique of like who, who you are or who you're not.Yeah.But you get to tap into something to feel something in the affirmative.And maybe it isn't, um, maybe it isn't tapping into the absence of something.But at least you get to feel a little something extra.Sure.Yeah.I, I tell a lot of people before they come join the gym or when they're thinking about joining the gym, I go, "Go to the store and buy off the mannequin like cool pair of shorts- Totallysneakers," because when you put it on, there's a reason why superheroes have costumes.That's, uh, that's really well put.Yeah.Totally.Because you need to transform out of who you are as a day-to-day person.Totally.We're obsessed with Superman and Batman because they're average people, but when they put this costume they become larger than life.Total- Yeah.I mean, youI think that, I think fitness, I think if you look at like the heritage of Nike and, you know, I've got nieces and nephews, when they're, you know, putzing around in their like youth leagues and they put on a basketball shoe that's similar to a player they look up to- Mm-hmm is it reallyI mean, how much is going to drive their performance?You know, they probably could have- Surepracticed their free throws for, you know, a couple extra hours- You betthat maybe would be more helpful than spending a couple extra bucks on the pair of shoes.I agree.But it makes them feel real good.So- Which isn't a bad thing.Yeah.I, no, I totally agree.I think it's, I think it's important to make people feel good, especially when they're using your product.I think that nowadays everybody's jumping into the CPG market- Yepand, you know, kind of exploring their own entrepreneurial skills, and there's so much more competition out there.Like, there's, I mean, you name a brand, there's probably s- 7 other brands doing the exact same thing.Right.Right.Um, but moving on to, you know, we, we touched on nicotine a little bit, but you know a lot more tha- about nicotine than most people because before you were at here you were at JUUL.Yeah.That kind of comes with a whole other set of skills and understanding, 'cause I, I feel like there's some legalities around- Yeahkind of creating a product like that.Yeah.Give us, give us your whole JUUL story.Yeah, that, that could take up the whole podcast.I mean, so I wasn't a smoker.Um, um, and I actually did, I didn't use JUUL myself.But smoking, um, is one of the most preventable forms ofIf you can get people to stop smoking, one of the most preventable, you know, forms of, of cancer.And, um, so there really was a, a, a mission orientation to the business- Surewhich was incredibly inspiring to join, and a product that had enough efficaciousness that it would be a compelling alternative to people who smoked every day.Mm-hmm.And so that was, um, it was, it, it was an adventure to try to do something through a commercial lens that would have broad, you know, appeal and effect to- that would help people through the course of their lives.Nicotine is a loaded category, and I think that a lot of lessons on how to work within such a regula- regulated space, how perception can supersede reality even if you have the best of intentions.Um, but ultimately, like, you know, buil- but a lot of lessons wh- on what is required to build and create a new category.You know, JUUL hadThere were a few, um, preexisting competitors before we launched with a product that didn't work, that had sort of, like, douchey connotations.Um, and that driving retrial within a category is really hard.Mm.And so, you know, what can you say?What are you allowed to say?You have a tiny budget.You're trying to scale something for a broader public good, and so how do you get other people to evangelize it?So some parallel, so some s- certainly some lessons that we tried to, you know, carry forward, um, in a, in a wild ride.Well, so there was a lot of, I know, I think there still is a lot of controversy around, like, oh, there's little shards of glass in, you know, uh, these JUULs and all this stuff.Mm.I mean, how much truth is that?How much is that people just making shit up, trying to make just- Yeah.Yeah, well, I don't think there was ever a shard of glass in any JUUL.I think there was pretty strong, you know, quality controls on it.I think that it was a, a, a challenging experience to g- you know, much of, like, the, the public commentary on JUUL was well after I left.Um, and, and I think that, I think that once there's a narrative, whether it's true or not, in our case much of the commentary was wild- wildly, um, distorted or untrue.Mm-hmm.The more you fight against it, the more you scream into the wind, and it actually makes the, makes it louder.And so, itAnd I wasn't there, so I couldn't have done- Such a good pointand so I think that that's, um, I think that, I think that even with the best of intentions, that can be misconstrued in a way that can be exceptionally frustrating.Mm.No, trust me, I, I know all too well.I wish I didn't.Um, even before that, like, you've been on this journey.Like, was this what you intended to do, like, build brands?Because I think you're a little ahead of the game.There are so many people now who wanna build a brand.Yeah.Like brand building is what I would say is the hottest thing on social media right now.Yeah.Like if you're creating a brand, like I follow a guy, uh, he has an energy drink brand.Uh, he started with, um, a supplement brand.He had some medical, um, kind of clinics and stuff like that, but he's now really leaning in hard into this.Like, "Hey, I'm the founder.I'm creating this brand.""I'm driving this," you know?Right.All engines go on this new product, and it's cool because I f- I, I watch his story.I watch so many other guys and girls.Christy said, uh, there are so many girls who are like, have these clothing brands or whatever they're doing.The young lady we just had here, she's got a, a Greek yogurt company.all this stuff is like, "I'm driving this ship."Do you ever feel the need that like you have to be able tell, to be the one telling the story because you're s- you're running the show over there?Or, and like, why were you so early on to this?Like, is this what- Yeahyou went to school for?Well, um, I mean, so I'm 47.I started my career in, actually in the late '90s.I was interning at sort of like Web 1.0 companies.My, my uncle had a we- a sort of Web 1.0 company focused on bulk commodity chem- chemicals.Mm-hmm.Literally, we started the least sexy category of all.But sort of got an idea that technology was allowing for innovation to, for, you know, big old things to be rethought.Um, and then I worked in venture capital at American Express right before September 11th.So I worked there for, you know, a month or 2 before, you know, that all changed due to 9/11.And then I worked at Amex, and I think that for me, that was just a, a mismatch.You know, a great company, a great brand, plenty of things that I learned, but like it didn't reflect the pace and the, and the, and the, the style of thinking that I needed within a given day.And so I went to business school.I worked at Bain.Um, it, it's always easy for people to sort of reverse engineer a narrative, that they knew what the hell they were gonna do a lo- all along.Sure.But that's rarely the case.Like, I didn't know I was gonna be anywhere close to where I am today 15 years ago, and I can sort of confidently say I have no idea where the next 10 years is gonna take me.But I think there's like threads that I knew of myself that I can see sort of shine through today, which is that I, I, I like cr- the act of creation.Um, and I like that in my personal life.I like renovating homes.I like, I, I like, and I like fixing, and I like problem-solving.Have you always been like that?I think that like, yeah, pro- probably.Like, I was a creative kid.I liked art.I liked, I liked the tactility of things.Like, I- Sure.And so just sitting at, like the idea of like optimizing a big company, like wasn't really a reflection of who I was.Like, I just got so bored, and I really wasn't, I wasn't my best self because there wasn't, there wasn't sort of the urgency of like what I needed to do within a given day that sort of like had me like wake up enough to like do it.It just was like too long of time horizons.Mm-hmm.Um, and I think that I kind of trace that to like, I like, you know, over the weekend I was like, I've got a little stretch of my yard that I turned into this fern alley, and I like bought all of these ferns and then planted them fast enough.I went and I had to like buy more.Like, I like creation.Sure, sure.And so I didn't really know what that could be, and I grew up, you know, where I grew up and the family I had, it wasn't like an entrepreneurial family.Like, I didn't know what thatYou know, we didn't know, there wasn't really a lot of talk about startups when I moved into this world, and, and I didn't grow up in that space, which is fi- like I'm lucky how I grew up.But then I moved from Bain to a place called The Gilt Group, um, and moving from consulting into a h- an early-stage company is like weirdly not the easiest transition, and I was super lucky that I was able to do that, and that there was a role for somebody with my background.Um, and that pace, that excitement of creation was sort of infectious.And so, you know, I was there at Gilt for a couple years and was thinking about my, what might be next and where would my career go, and somebody said, "You know, you either stay, generally stay within an industry or a function.So, like, do you wanna be in retail apparel or do you wanna like do a function?"Mm-hmm.And th-that like simplicity was like pretty helpful because it's like, well, I don't think itLike, if you do retail, then you're like, you go through the merchant program, and I don't think that's me.So now I've got a function to pick.And so the good news is there, there aren't that many functions.So, you know, let's sort out finance or marketing or- Surewhatever it is, and it's like, well, I guess I'll do marketing.So off I, off I went.So when we were, um, we were talking before, we've talked about this a couple times.Just, and me and Chrissy go back and forth about this whole time.When somebody's a creative, it's very hard for them to also be a, a logistics person as well.Yeah.So for somebody who's got a big role like yourself Yeahbig company like this, how much of your job is managing the people that have a different skill set than you?And are you the type of person where you're like, "All right, well, I have to be good at both these things," or are you very comfortable with being like, "Hey, you guys need to handle this because that's not my skill set"?Well, I think, I think that, I mean, I'll use an analogy, and not just because we're in the gym.One of my favorite hours of the day is when I work out with my trainer.Because he knows more than me.Like, I, he studied kinesiology.He's a registered dietician.Like, he, it's just, "What do you want me to pick up and how many times?"Sure."And how do you want me to do it?"Mm-hmm.And I love that.So, I think that what, you know, what the goal is is for me to hire as many trainers as possible, where it's like, I, my, then my job is about identifying the, the vision, incorporating the inputs f- to build a strategy, and ensuring that we have the resources to do it.It, you know, but we're still, you know, we're a year in.Mm-hmm.And so we don't have, you know, we, we, we don't have the full, you know, the full architecture of, of every function built out.And so, um, we're doing it.And so until then, then, then I lean in and I help, you know, I help try to problem solve.Yeah.Um, and try to bring in the right folks as, as best I can.Yeah.No, I, I mean, again, and I hope people find value in this, because it's definitely a point I'm at.I went to school for art and design.I am, by trade, a trainer.Uh, over the past 15 years, I became a gym owner.Yep.Um, I've learned and made a lot of mistakes over the years, and I think there's a lot of young people and even older people who are, find themselves in positions where they're now managing this new product or this new brand.Yeah.And they don't have all these skillsets.And there's, the same guy who takes you from 0 to five million isn't the same guy who takes you from 20 million to 50 1000000.Yeah.It's a totally different skillset.So I think for me, I'm at that point where I'm like, "Okay, how do I move myself, how do I move my business forward?"Because I don't necessarily have those skills, and it's good to hear from other people who are like, all right, you're a creative, clearly, right?Like, I could see the way you dress, you know, the, the collaborations you guys are doing with the clothing, the, the way the product looks, the other brands you worked for, the, it, your resume tells a story of who you are.Yeah.And it's, it seems like you lean more on the creative side.Um, and for me, it's like, I like that too.Like, I didn't need to create a clothing portion- Rightof my business.I- You wanted to.But that's what, yeah, I wanted to.I, I kind of get joy out of that, and if it does make money, great.If it doesn't, then I'm okay with that as well.Um, but it, it's hard to understand, like, what skills you have.And I admire the people who have multiple.Yeah.And can navigate each part of the business a lot- Rightbetter than IYeah, I mean, nobody'sI think that, listen, we're all works in progress.I think that I, I'm trying to figure out where to lean in and help versus- Step backwhat, versus step back.Yeah, yeah.And that's, you know, especially when you're in the early days of a business, how you giveYou know, I, when I interview people, I try to say, you know, everyone's exceptional at something.Mm-hmm.So, what are you exceptional at?And let's just, like, own that, and, like, you're gonna know that better than me.And then, what are you good enough to do?And then where do we draw the line and say, like, it, we're just better off with you not touching that?Yeah.And coming up with those 3 categories, and- That's soWait, so say that again.It's 3, those 3 things are super important.Because even last night, we, I had a meeting.I'm, I'm a part of this, uh, founders group, and somebody had said about somebody else in the group, they were like, "We really admire them because they'll take somebody and find out what their skillset is, and won't have"'Cause I do the same thing.Uh, and I don't try to force them to do something they're really not good at.Yeah.You know?Like, I have some, I have a trainer here, she's not really good in big groups.She's better at one-on-one.Sure.She's really good with that.I'm not gonna force her to do something that makes her uncomfortable.Yeah.Although there's times I'm, I'd like to make her more comfortable with, and I think trial by fire is a great way, but knowing somebody's skillset, what were those 3 things that you said?Yeah.Um, so the first is what are you exceptional at?Sure.And, like- Everybody's got- Everybody-some sort of giftevery, every single person.Yep.Um, so what are you exceptional at?Mm-hmm.And, and I think that's, like, the first step.Like, what, where do you start from?The second is, especially once you start talking about a certain company or role, what are you good enough to do that at?Okay.Right?And then the, the next is probably the hardest one of all is where do we draw the line where it's just better off for you not to touch it?And so, you know, it's funny that we're talking about this.I mean, I should probably, like, now I'm gonna do that tonight for myself.Yeah.Um, because it, because I think that, you know, all of this, we're all just dealing with humans, and everyone has generally really good intentions.Sure.It's so humbling that people spend a chapter of their career working with you, you know, whether it's in the gym or at my company or wherever.And so, you know, you come back and you're just dealing with hu- humans and self-awareness.Everyone wants, everyone thinks they're self-aware.Mm-hmm.Um, now I'm gonna go home and, you know, make sure I'm self-reflecting enough to make- Yeahsure that I'm self-aware.I, I try to do it as much as I possibly can.Just this morning I got up, and I try to get up an extra, like, 10, 15 minutes early, kind of write down things I'm grateful for, write down 3 things that, like, I wanna improve about myself, and then write 3 things that, like, I really want to happen so I could kind of manifest that.But last night we were talking about, um, the importance of, like, trying to figure out how you find out what people are exceptional at.Are there questions or are there certain things, we were talking about, uh, having people take, uh, not even just IQ tests, but personality tests.Yeah.How do you get to the crux or find out what somebody'Cause a lot of people, everybody's like, "Oh, well, I wanna be a trainer.I wanna be in front of the room, and I could be an influencer," they, their personalities really don't- Jive with thatjive with that.Everybody thinks they wanna do it.It's like everybody wants to be an actor, but then- Yeah.Like, I thought I wanted to be an actor when I was a kid.I'm absolutely fucking horrible at it.I can't get in touch with my emotions.I remember taking an acting class, I was probably 23, 24 years old.I'm down in the Lower East Side, and everybody's sitting around, and then one by one, we had to get up there and, like, cry in front of the room.I'm like, "Fuck this.I'm out.I can't te-" Right."I can't tap into this side- YeahLike, that's crazy.Right.So I was like, "I'm not an actor," even though everybody thinks- Rightthey should be one.Um, how do you get to that with somebody?Well, I mean- Especially in an interview.What's that?Like, in an interview when you're- In, in in- I mean, one thing is that I always start every interview, and I interview people with the most senior down to even, you know, the, the most entry level roles, is just, like, disarm the, we are just having a conversation.Sure.And, like, this is, interview has this terrible con- connotation.You end up interviewing or, like, evaluating people on their ability to perform.Mm-hmm.As it's a, it's a performance more than, like, an actual conversation.So I always say, like, "This may or may not be the right role for you, and we're in a conversation to figure out if this is the right one."And so that's, when whatever the answer is is gonna be okay because if, it, your next right role might be here with us or might be at somewhere else.So there's some co-creation in the conversation that we have to sort of say, like, take all of the wind out of, take out all of the sort of tension out of it.Sure.And then ultimately to say, like, I always like to say, "You know you better than I'm going to learn about you in the next 30, 60 minutes.So, like, I'm counting on you to just be real with me."Mm-hmm.And so, and then I break out what those 3 categories are.You can usually tell if people are trying to tell you the right thing.So it, and, and, and so one is your just, like, ability to discern it, but the other thing is just to, like, break the ice enough so that people feel comfortable.You know, I think that in this economy, everyone wants jobs.It's hard to get jobs.Like, to give them confidence that this is not the only option for them.Mm-hmm.And they're not the only 0 the 0 only option.This is like a, you're reaching a solution together- MmI think is helpful.You know, I think that for people to, like, be able to do that, people, like, people you're close with know you better than you might, um, be able to articulate for yourself.So th- that career advisor I have, Valerie, she actually went out and interviewed 15, uh, people who knew me professionally and personally the best.She did 60-minute interviews with- Wow15 people, which is, I mean, lucky that I got to do it.But I think people could do that themselves.They could ask people to, like, you know, send something anonymously or put it into an AI to aggregate.But people that y- you know, if you were thinking about, you know, what to do next and where you should put your resources, I bet if you asked the 10 people who knew you best.Yeah.And then what happened when Valerie came back to me is she didn't reveal some profound insight that I was unaware of.She told me the truth that I already knew existed.I just didn't know how to say it myself.But it, did it, do you feel like it reinforced your belief in yourself, and you were like, "Okay, now I could really ride with this"?Yeah, because I think just, like, everyone has a superpower.Everyone has a special thing.There's also, like, go with the grain a little bit, you know- Mm-hmm.at least at this stage of my life.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Like, I am who I, I mean, people evolve.I don't know if takes a, it's a bigger lift than I have to take to, like, transform myself right now.But everyone has something great to work with.And so, you know, people that wanna be an influencer, like, go ask your, like, 10 closest friends if they think that you should be an influencer.Yeah, yeah.And they'll know whether you've got that special sauce or not.That's such a good point.So when you were saying you, you kinda wannaget to that point with someone.One of the things that I do a lot of times is when somebody comes and meets me here, it's almost like it's my office, and it's almost like there's a, a bit of an intimidation factor.Yeah.That like, "This is my home.I'm the boss."I'm always like, "Come on, we'll go get a cup ofAnd I just wanna get to know them.How do you br- like, because you've hired so many people in so many different levels of- Yeahyour business, what, what have you found has been the most successful way for you to really kinda get somebody to open up and show who they really are?Because you don't wanna meet somebody's representative, right?It's, it's the same as dating.You're meeting somebody, and they're like, they're gonna give you all the answers- Yeahthat you think you wanna hear.Like, "Oh, I've never slept with any before."It's like, I'd rather you say you slept with a bunch of people.I'd rather you say you're a slut, 'cause I feel like this would be going a whole lot better for both of us.Your interviews sound like more fun than mine.Um, yeah, I mean, I mean, first, the, the best thing is to g- is to be introduced to people through people you know.Because then, then you've got like a little bit of like a window into what's going on, and you can sort of back channel and say like, you know, "Come talk to Kenny."Like it's a chat, and then that, that helps.certainly, like, you know, the environment you have can break it down.But theI think that people read byYou've got a strong personality in a great way, and pe- I've heard the same thing about me.And I think that people take the cue by somebody like you.So I think that youLike, how do you sort of s- share something about yourself?How do you show, how do you lead by example even in- Mma conversation- Surethat it's okay?Like, if just by you having the comfort and confidence, you know, talking about y- y- you without knowing you well enough to do so, about saying, "Here's what I need.Here's what I'm good at.Here's what I need help with, because I don't know how to do it," that shows that people can actually reciprocate and say the same thing, and then you're trying to, you know, just be real with one another.No, I, I, r- I like that.I actually really like that.What's 3, umYou know, I always ask for advice that people have gotten over the years that have kinda kept them sorta like a North Star, that keeps them aligned with what they're trying to do.Because, you know, efficacy is something that you brought up a couple times, you know, with JUUL, with Whip.I feel like that'sI, I know you have a big heart without fully knowing you.Like, you obviously give a shit.You don't wanna sell something that you think will be detrimental to people.You care.Of course.You're a creative guy.So what are 3 piece of advice that you've gotten that have kept that as your North Star?Because you're like, "Well, this is wh- that's who I am, and that's where I wanna go, so I need these things to kinda reinforce m- me getting there."Oh, th- 3, I mean, 3 isThat, that's a, that's a high goal.You- Yeah.That's a, that's aSo, you know, I, um, we'll see if I can unpack it into 3, but I'll, I'll tell you a little story to sort of encapsulate it, which is like myI grew up with the best parents.My dad had a terrible stroke last year, and um, he's paralyzed on the left, and that's been, you know, a, a switch flipped.And so I was out visiting him in California recently, and he was having a tough day, and heTo observe him, you know, in this hospital bed, at home, and in a situation that's just no, a situation nobody wants to be in, I got to watch him give himself a pep talk after a really challenging day.And he, you know, he's 83, and he took the essence of what he learned from his mom, my grandmother, that I heard, and it was just, "All you can do is keep doing your best each and every day."And to likeAnd he just kept telling himself, like, "Doing your best is good enough, and keep doing your best."And that, thatI don't know why that's the answer that I have, but I think that it goes back a little bit to self-awareness of like you know when you've put in your best effort or not.Mm-hmm.And to hold that standard to yourself that nobody else can say.It's like when you were little, and you're in school, and you, like, got a crummy grade on a, on a quiz, and you know, my parents, you know, whenever I came back with grades, they would say, you know, "Did you, did, you know, did you do your best?"And there's that feeling inside where, you know, sometimes you did do your best, and you got the grade you didn't want.And there's some where, like, you went and played with your friends instead of studying for the quiz, and your- Mmparents asked if you did your best, and you can, you can't quite say it as truly as you want to.And so I think theI, I don't know why I told you a story instead of giving you 3 pieces of advice.I ignored your question, but- No, but I, I think- I think it's holding yourself to the standard with which you know you can and to li- do your best to live up to that.Yeah, I, I think that's so important.Like, when I was a kid, I, I mean, just for me, my grandmother would always say, "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."Yeah.So, that was always something I'm like, "Okay, if I, if I'm good to people, if I'm a little sweeter, then I'm gonna get more out of life than I would- Sureif I was an asshole."My mother would always say, you know, "God does everything for a reason."You know?So, like, when something ba- I've always related that back to, like, all right, something happens, there's probably a, a better purpose or something- Rightbetter out there.Totally.There's a reason why this happened.The givers or the getters.Yeah.And I, I truly believe that.Yeah.I truly believe- And you don't give to get.You just give because that's the thing to do.I say all the time, I've learned so many times in my life, I just wanna see other people win.Yeah.Because if I have aAt the end of the day, even last night, I'm at this event, and everybody around me is doing way better than I am.I love being the dumbest person in the room.I love being the most broke person in the room.I'm in the right room.Right.There's gotta be a fucking reason I'm there.Right.You know?So- Of course.You know?So, you start to put yourself around people and start to wanna see other people win.When you have that animosity towards people, that negative energy just fucking eats away at you.Oh, yeah.And I think there's so many people who don't get that.Like, one of the things I tell, you know, my staff and stuff, I'm like, "We have to wanna see other people win."If our clients are winning, if they feel better, if they have a great day, they're only gonna tell more people that we're here.Yeah.That's, it's us wi- That's, uh, them winning is us winning.And the same thing when we bring on brands.I'm like, Chrissy, you know, kind of took on this the same way that I, I would pitch a lot of brands.I'm like, "What could we help you with?"Love it.I created this event because I wanna see other brandI would love for people to run around and be like, "I started my business.I, I went to Strong New York, and it blew up, you know, this-" Right"part of our business," or that.I wanna see that.I wanna hear that.Because that only makes us winners if we're watching other people win.Totally.Yeah.So, I think that's so important.But, like, what you were saying was like, "Did you do your best?"I mean, sorry to hear about your dad.I mean, my dad had a stroke back in 2018, and yeah, that was his demise.Right.Um, so I, I get what you're- Sorry to hear.I get yourNo, I, I get what you're feeling.I, I, I totally re- resonate with that.But that piece of advice, it's like, I could only do my best.I could onlyLike, that kind of thing that you keep hearing in your head helps people move along.Like, that's your North Star.Like, you gotta just- Exactlymove towards that.Yeah.Yeah.So, what's next with the brand?I mean, obviously, you got a lot on your hands here.Yeah.You got a huge, huge thing you're carrying on your back.Huge thing we're doing.I know.It's pretty wild.Yeah.So much in just these little pouches.Um, yeah, we're gonna be in, like, 10,000 retail doors by the end of June, so soon we're- Okayin a bunch.We're, we're, yeah.We're g- 'Cause I, I sh- I, I think I sent to you or I sent to Heather, I now see them everywhere.So, I, it's pretty wild.Um, and it's a fun logo to see- Yeahin the wild.But, you know, we're in convenience stores.We're in Murphy's Quick Trip.We'll soon be in Wawa.So, yeah.Great.The, I mean, that's, it, it sounds like that- It's Jerseype- people always w- based on the name, that you can tell where they're from geographically.Wawa's Jersey.They're- Uh, or Pennsylvania.And they're in a bunch of gyms.W- we wereI love that, and that's what I think'll be great with Strong stuff.But we were, uh, me, Chrissy, and my mom went to go get something to eat downtown, and we saw it in the window.And it was, like, there was a little drugstore, and it was, like, Celsius Whip.I'm like, "Oh, that's my store."So, I took a picture of it.Um, as far as where you place it, do you, do you feel that as, from a marketing perspective, do you feel that matters?Like, who picks it up, who's pushing it?Sure.Yeah.I mean, that's why we're in some, we're in some awesome gyms.Um, it works in that use case really clearly.And so, and people that work out hard, if they feel like our, I think my nephews would say, like, it slaps.Yeah.But if, if we, if we slap hard enough, then- Yeahthe people who use it throughout the rest of their days will use it, too.Yeah.And now, where have you seen traction on social media with it?Like, where do you see people, um, kinda posting about it, and, like, what demographic of people?I mean, I'll tell you this.Our best TikTok affiliate is, uh, a female bodybuilder, which is so awesome.That's great.Um, but, you know, it's generally p- it's a fun product that people use.You know, I think people aren't, you know, I'm not sh- taking a photo at my desk using it, but people use it and share it when they're working out.And then we're about to hit festival season, and people like to use this, you know- Sureat nighttime, too.Uh, what I'd love to do with this is we're gonna be doing, we're sending out, like, 200 influencer boxes.Oh, great.For the event.Let's do it.So, I'd love to, like, kinda- Yeahthrow this in the influencer box.Would be, for sure, 100%.Be awesome.Well, Rich, thank you so much for stopping- Thanks for having meby the Strong New York podcast.Uh, where can everybody find you?Where can everybody, uh, kinda keep up with the brand?Yeah.Go to Instagram, @whipenergy, and then you can go to wip.com, W-I-P.com.It's a good URL.All right.Guys, thank you so much.As always, like, share, subscribe, and get yourself a Whip.