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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:16:08
Unknown
It went live a week before lockdown and it just became popular. So I always reflect, was it popular because we got into lockdown and people were missing their families,
00:00:16:10 - 00:00:47:20
Unknown
Welcome to Best Beginnings, a podcast by Baby Zone charity dedicated to giving every baby the best start in life. I'm George Luker, CEO of Baby Zone, and today I'm joined by Laura Henry Elaine, M.B.E., children's Reading. Enjoyment in this country is at a 20 year low. Only 1 in 3 children now say they enjoy reading in their free time, and the share of parents who read with their child every day has fallen from two thirds to just over half in the space of six years.
00:00:47:22 - 00:01:21:23
Unknown
2026 has been declared a national Year of reading, a national effort to reverse that decline. And one of the official ambassadors is leading that push and is my guest today. Laura is an award winning early education specialist, producer, author, and keynote speaker with more than 35 years of experience across education, health and social services. She is most well known as the creator of Jojo and Gran Gran, the first black British animation produced for CBeebies, a show she developed out of her own relationship with her grandmother.
00:01:22:01 - 00:01:47:15
Unknown
Her best selling books include My Skin, Your Skin and My Family. Your Family. She's also the vice president of the British Association for Early Childhood Education, a fellow of the Royal Literary Fund, and one of only 49 educators worldwide. Named as a global master leader in early care and education, and she was awarded her MBA in 2021 for services to education.
00:01:47:17 - 00:02:04:11
Unknown
So there's a lot to get through with that experience. We've got a lot to talk about and really excited to have you joining us today. Thank you so much, Laura. And I guess we'll start with something I touched on around it being this year of reading. And you've obviously got a big role as an ambassador. How is that going?
00:02:04:12 - 00:02:08:19
Unknown
And also, what made you want to be in that role and supporting that initiative?
00:02:09:00 - 00:02:34:23
Unknown
Yeah. Thank you. George. And for the intro. Sounded like my eulogy, actually, because if I was at my funeral, that amount of work that you're doing, I know there was more, but I'm sure we will touch on that in the podcast. But I think for myself, I've always loved reading as a as a child, and it was something that my mum instilled in us as children is to read as to go to my local library.
00:02:35:01 - 00:02:50:01
Unknown
We had books, I am quite old and we used to have something called the Puffin Book Club and every term would get a list of books. And even though money was tight because we lived in social housing, my mum always made sure we got a book from the Puffin Book Club,
00:02:50:03 - 00:03:17:24
Unknown
Equally to add, I am dyslexic and very badly dyslexic. The listeners, the viewers would probably pick up. I'm verbally dyslexic. My handwriting, my spelling, my grammar. I can't tell left from right. And a lot of people say to me, yeah, but you write children's books and you love reading. And I said yes, because that aspect of my dyslexia hasn't impacted me in terms of my love of reading.
00:03:18:01 - 00:03:42:20
Unknown
So why I wanted also to to be when I was asked to become an ambassador, I said yes immediately. And I think because of my background working in early years and as a storyteller, a as a writer of children's books, and also to as a parent of grown up children, where they also to had a love of books within their childhood.
00:03:43:00 - 00:04:06:04
Unknown
And thus far for me, when I'm delivering keynotes, doing authors visits like I was this morning in the nursery school, I always shared. Do you know about the National Year of Reading? Have you seen the resources? And I've done a few videos for the National Year of Reading that they have included. For instance, they had a I had to record something using a stick.
00:04:06:05 - 00:04:24:20
Unknown
I had to on National Storytelling Day. So there's many aspects of the National Year of Reading, and the theme is go all in. So the idea is how we all need to go all in into a book, because there is something for everybody. There is a book for everybody.
00:04:24:22 - 00:04:47:16
Unknown
Yeah. Look, I think it's a brilliant cause that you're championing and as you say, making sure that it's as accessible as possible for families that, you know, children may have speech and language challenges, but also a time and resource constrained to, I guess, for any of the parents that are listening, what would be your advice or anything you would share about going all in?
00:04:47:16 - 00:04:54:23
Unknown
How would you recommend, or is there a particular resource that you've seen that's been particularly powerful that you'd want people to look at?
00:04:54:23 - 00:05:19:10
Unknown
I think the number one thing I always say to parents is where possible, visit your library. And I know libraries are closing down, which I believe library should be ring friends. There should be a library within walking distance within the community, and in some libraries have in some local authorities, you can take up to about 25 books out and it's free.
00:05:19:12 - 00:05:45:02
Unknown
And you can have the books for either a month or six weeks. For some parents, go into the library if they have to go on a bus. Financially, that's not made me work out because, you know, a bus fares, what, two, 3 pounds? And that could be a lot of money if they are on a low income. So I would say if that is the case, then maybe then go every month to six weeks.
00:05:45:02 - 00:06:19:11
Unknown
I have visited a baby zone, the Croydon one, and I know you. There are lots of books there that parents can access as well if they're in a childminding setting. Nursery, preschool. Again, many of those early years settings do a book loaning scheme, etc. and focusing on your child's interest. My oldest son is autistic and his passion when he was in his early years was trains and planes.
00:06:19:12 - 00:06:32:06
Unknown
So if your child is interested in cooking birds, you can find a book, a fiction book, or a nonfiction book that actually leans into their their passion.
00:06:32:12 - 00:06:43:24
Unknown
we're in our dinosaur era. Oh, right. Okay. There is a Jojo and Gran Gran Dinosaur book. Quick little plug there, but I wanted to add that also to around for parents.
00:06:44:01 - 00:07:06:11
Unknown
One of the things that I always hear quite a lot from parents is they don't feel confident in reading a book. Can I say nobody is going to judge you? You're maybe in your private home space, and for some parents it could just be looking at pictures with their child because it's their child seeing the print in that book.
00:07:06:13 - 00:07:33:00
Unknown
And it could be for some parents just reading one page at a time, you know, going along to your library where I was this morning. Author's visits. There's a lot of authors visits that are free that there's no cost involved. So parents are able to see that role modeling and to at this point, quickly, in Birmingham, there's a school called Oasis would view.
00:07:33:00 - 00:07:59:11
Unknown
And the deputy head carer, she set up a scheme called Bambino and Books. So in short, when parents are due to start school either a year or 2 or 3 years in advance, they come along to these sessions and care quite confidently. Shows with the research from Book Trust and the Literacy Trust on the importance of early years reading.
00:07:59:17 - 00:08:29:10
Unknown
I go along, I'm on the floor reading my you know, some of my books are parents role modeling, and you can see these little toddlers running all over their school hall. And we've had about three sessions so far. So there are many ways that parents can introduce books there. And part of that scheme, every child gets a free book, like with the book trust scheme and babies, parents are able to get books for their babies.
00:08:29:12 - 00:08:37:21
Unknown
Yeah, I think we were very grateful for your visit to babies. Owen and our parents loved having you read to their children and and seeing that.
00:08:37:21 - 00:09:00:16
Unknown
And you're right, it's all about that modeling. It's all about social proof, understanding that you don't need to be a perfect reader yourself in order to be able to do it with your child. That should be a bonding activity. You can make mistakes. Your child can make mistakes, I guess. How has that evolved for you? Obviously you have a background, a professional experience.
00:09:00:16 - 00:09:21:18
Unknown
As an early years educator, how did that inform your authorship of books in a way that you went about creating the books that you've written, and how does it still inform you and your work going forward? Thinking about not just parents in the home learning environment, but also in a nursery setting, or whether childminder or wherever else it
00:09:21:20 - 00:09:56:02
Unknown
be. I think when I write my books, I always think about this preschool child in mind that will they be be able to understand the rhythm and the flow of the book. And interesting enough, when I meet teachers, educators, childminders, they always say to me, oh, I've picked up this in one of your books, which I probably didn't think about, but maybe subconsciously, as I'm writing, I am picking up on those particular themes, if that makes sense, and knowing that because I know.
00:09:56:02 - 00:10:07:21
Unknown
Early years, inside Out the Early Years Foundation stage seven areas of learning. There are many aspects of that within within my books.
00:10:07:23 - 00:10:22:15
Unknown
Yeah, and I think that that's clear. My wife's a primary school teacher as well, and she said it resonates with her. And I guess it's going back to what I was talking about at the beginning, the decline of reading at home, people not reading as much for enjoyment, I guess.
00:10:22:15 - 00:10:39:14
Unknown
What would you say? I mean, you spoke about libraries very compellingly there and ensuring that everyone's got access, but do you think it's also a confidence thing for parents, or is it a lack of or they weren't read to themselves and therefore they don't know about the importance? Why is it? Do you think that we're seeing a decline in
00:10:39:16 - 00:10:39:23
Unknown
reading?
00:10:39:23 - 00:10:52:17
Unknown
I think there are so many different reasons, George, and I feel I always say when we see research come out, let's not parent. Bash. I always say that
00:10:52:22 - 00:10:58:07
Unknown
I say this as a parent also to as a busy working parent when my children were small.
00:10:58:07 - 00:11:35:05
Unknown
There's many reasons for that. And I think it's important that we share solutions with parents in terms of how they can support their child with reading. And one of the the examples that I share is, you know, like you can get one of those tote bags, have one of those bags of rucksack, you know, a supermarket bag and fill it with books where possible, paper games and pens, mark making pens, crayons, etc. and have that ready by the door.
00:11:35:05 - 00:12:01:12
Unknown
So it's like a bag to go. So therefore then if parents are going out to have a mill, they're on the tube, the train, the bus, in the supermarket, rather than going for the tablet to have a book ready in the bag. And as I said, the book trust they have the children get the free books and depending on which area you live in.
00:12:01:14 - 00:12:05:16
Unknown
And the wonderful Dolly Parton, the singer, she has a foundation.
00:12:05:16 - 00:12:25:18
Unknown
me. Where children are able. Where they're given a free book. Yeah. So I think there are many different ways that parents can find out from their local authority. Early years team. Where can they get free books from Baby Zone as well? And there are many other charities.
00:12:25:18 - 00:12:38:24
Unknown
There is one up the road. The name escapes me and the studio. I'm saying up the road. The listeners think about it. I'm in Scotland, where is she talking about? So I can't remember. But what they do is
00:12:38:24 - 00:12:47:05
Unknown
So they collect second hand books. It started in Barbie Primary School, so they collect second hand because she's an ex parent.
00:12:47:06 - 00:13:13:08
Unknown
They collect second hand books and then they distribute them. I've spoken to Bharathi. That's it. Verity. Yeah. Brilliant. Yes. Yeah. There are so many great initiatives. There's so many initiatives, and I'm sure we could. It's just making me think. Maybe I need to do something for babies and set something up on your website of where you have baby zone and places where parents can get free books from.
00:13:13:08 - 00:13:23:12
Unknown
I think it's just given me a thought about an idea. This is my dyslexic brain going like this. Now that sounds good. Yeah, we'll be going to think about that as a resource. Yeah, yeah.
00:13:23:16 - 00:13:37:21
Unknown
Let's touch on dyslexia. And you obviously mentioned it earlier as well. And you're an ambassador for the British Dyslexia Association. We know that these dyslexia is typically identified at school.
00:13:37:23 - 00:14:06:20
Unknown
But it can be apparent in early years and, you know, 0 to 5 before before a child has gotten to reception. I guess, you know, what do you see when you're looking at all of the children that you've worked with over your career, where you've identified or they potentially would have dyslexic tendencies, what compare ants be doing? What can practitioners be doing if they haven't necessarily got experience in supporting dyslexic children?
00:14:06:22 - 00:14:07:23
Unknown
What advice would you give
00:14:08:04 - 00:14:20:16
Unknown
them? I think it's important to one of the things I always go back to with my early years on here is that I'm I'm going to call everybody an educator.
00:14:20:18 - 00:14:48:01
Unknown
If you're a child minder, teacher, practitioner. So if you're an educator, it's super important that you understand child development. So the milestones from birth up to seven. So if you are observing and noticing a child's behavior, you'll be able to quite quickly pick up this child. Fatma. John, Keisha, they're not where they need to be. And then the alarm bells are going to start ringing.
00:14:48:02 - 00:15:08:07
Unknown
You're observing them at different times of the day. You're having open, sensitive conversations with parents. There's just something that is not right. Okay. And I think from that, then it's the extra support that we can give to children, whether or not it's to do with their communication and language, whether or not it's to do with their physical development.
00:15:08:07 - 00:15:35:02
Unknown
For instance, on a personal level, knowing what my son it was, his personal, social and emotional development. He used to have a lot of crying outburst and he was a biter. So all of this century stuff, which wasn't developmentally appropriate for his age, but just sort of like a little thing to think about, is every child for the listeners develops at different rates.
00:15:35:02 - 00:16:04:01
Unknown
And obviously it's between in terms of a three year old. So a three year old sometimes could be going up to to fall. Does that make sense. And it's about then if you are a parent making sure that you do. If your child is within an earlier setting to speak to the key person, to speak to your health visitor, and the the help that they get here on will definitely stand.
00:16:04:03 - 00:16:22:20
Unknown
I always say make sure a child gets support as early as possible. And then with my publisher, Ladybird, if we are talking about books and development at this particular time, three years ago, I wrote this and it's the early years reading timelines. This is using my background as an author
00:16:22:20 - 00:16:30:04
Unknown
My expertise. So starting from 0 to 3 and then right the way up to 4 to 5.
00:16:30:05 - 00:16:41:04
Unknown
So developmentally, where they should be in terms of reading books and then giving top tips so this can be downloaded. Downloaded. See that's my verbal dyslexia.
00:16:41:08 - 00:16:55:00
Unknown
downloaded from the Penguin website. And that's really useful. And a lot of earlier settings are sharing the link on. Some of them are doing displays around it or just physically giving.
00:16:55:01 - 00:17:18:02
Unknown
If I'm doing a an author's visits, at times my publisher sends me some copies. For instance, I launched a a food bank, so we were sent copies and whilst I'm there, I'm talking to parents and I can say, oh Hussain, how old is Hussain? And they say, oh, Hussain is three. And I said, oh that's this is where Hussain should be, especially in a library.
00:17:18:07 - 00:17:22:03
Unknown
Shall we go and have a look at some books for Hussain? You know
00:17:22:09 - 00:17:25:08
Unknown
that's helpful for parents. They are a great resource. We'll make sure we link
00:17:25:08 - 00:17:27:00
Unknown
to that. Yes. Yeah. Comments
00:17:27:05 - 00:17:29:22
Unknown
under under this episode as well.
00:17:29:24 - 00:17:47:13
Unknown
I guess you've spoken about your son and sort of your own dyslexia too. How did that inform your creation process, the books that you've written, the illustrations that you've made, what were the your own parenting experience do to inform the way that you wrote your
00:17:47:15 - 00:18:14:08
Unknown
I think around the thing around neurodiversity is for me. I, even when I'm writing articles for adults to read, is that I have a very simple way of writing. So in terms of I do keep it so I don't use very long words. It's kept in a way that is user friendly, and knowing that children are able to follow the rhythm and the flow.
00:18:14:08 - 00:18:38:20
Unknown
And interestingly enough, Jojo and Grande Grande Television Jojo and Grand Grande parents who have autistic children have either emailed me or sent me messages to say that their child loves the show and whether or not it's the from that relationship point of view, because it is a very slow paced. A lot of psychologists said it's good. I know that you've interviewed Martha.
00:18:38:21 - 00:18:42:00
Unknown
She recommends Jojo, and
00:18:42:02 - 00:18:49:01
Unknown
she's she was a fascinating conversation. And in the same way that, you know, we also had some wasps
00:18:49:03 - 00:18:49:21
Unknown
coming
00:18:49:23 - 00:19:06:14
Unknown
and he spoke about those sort of the fast paced television and then compared it to some of the content like yours, which is sort of more appropriate for different age groups, depending on the ability to absorb that information and the rapidity of change.
00:19:06:16 - 00:19:31:15
Unknown
So yeah, it sounds like you've hit a sweet spot for for many parents and had that reinforcement. I guess if we talk about that, because it's an interesting journey. What did it take to get your stories on CBeebies and produced? You've written a little bit about the resistance that you faced, perhaps initially some delays and so a lot of patience that was required.
00:19:31:17 - 00:19:46:24
Unknown
How did you manage to use your voice? Use your writing to get Jojo and Graham Greene on television. Why do you think that it had that popular appeal? It resonated to the extent whereby it was used by CBeebies.
00:19:46:24 - 00:19:52:03
Unknown
Do you want the full version or the director's cut?
00:19:52:05 - 00:20:15:22
Unknown
Our audience be very interested. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So from my background, from working in early years, then was an officer inspector for a short while. I worked in adult education, then within a local authority. And then for the last 20 years I worked globally as a consultant, early childhood specialist. Been to some countries I would have never dreamt of going to have been to Hawaii.
00:20:15:24 - 00:20:42:19
Unknown
I've been to the Maldives delivering train all over the place. And so part of that in consultancy work I worked with brands as well. So anything to do with families, that's what I use to advise on and I did some work for a particular show. Rusty mouse and the BBC were there and I just said, oh, I've written a book about a little girl and her grandmother.
00:20:42:21 - 00:21:06:18
Unknown
Just as a little side note from that, my middle name is Josephine. My grandmother died age 101. I was very, very upset, grieving. And then I remembered all these little lovely stories she used to share with me when I was when I became an adult. This was what I was like when I was little. And I thought, oh, I wonder if children would love to hear some stories about a little girl and her grandmother.
00:21:06:18 - 00:21:24:06
Unknown
So I wrote the stories and then the title. My middle name is Josephine, hence Jojo and Grand Grande. So I would say to children, I'm Jojo. And they look at me as if to say, really? And that's my grandmother. And then we hook back to Saint Lucia. Everybody must go and visit Saint Lucia. It's a lovely Caribbean island.
00:21:24:07 - 00:21:49:23
Unknown
And so then I met with the BBC. They said no a couple of times. And one of the producers in development, Rosa Tilly, I met her opposite in BBC across the road from where we're recording this episode, and she said, I get it, I love it. I'm of Saint Lucian heritage and I thought, yes, but then still, Ross was super passionate.
00:21:49:23 - 00:21:55:03
Unknown
She pitched it two three, I think a couple of times. We finally got a yes.
00:21:55:05 - 00:22:09:05
Unknown
It went live a week before lockdown and it just became popular. So I always reflect, was it popular because we got into lockdown and people were missing their families,
00:22:09:05 - 00:22:17:06
Unknown
and because we have the bit with the tablet where they go to the great grandmother in Saint Lucia, and it was popular because of that.
00:22:17:07 - 00:22:55:06
Unknown
It's it's to the heart. They say, I love you. Every child has a grandparent, so if not a grandparent, they may be an adult. That's significant in their life. It's shown globally and it's still now super popular because when I go into a school, you get the children aged ten and 11. It's not good for their street grade to say that they still watch Jojo and Grand Grande, or they used to, but the children in their early years coming through, we've got a new fan base, and I believe that it will probably be one of those shows that evergreen, like Thomas the Tank Engine, it will go from generation to generation.
00:22:55:06 - 00:23:21:00
Unknown
And I always have to thank. There was over 100 people involved in making Jojo Grande A productions that are based in Bristol. Tom Cousins, the series producer, all the voice over artist and it was groundbreaking at the time, the first black British animation and all of the writers were diverse. It was just an amazing show to be involved
00:23:21:00 - 00:23:21:12
Unknown
in.
00:23:21:12 - 00:23:45:18
Unknown
And what does that mean for a child under five, seeing that representation of black British community, as you say, the diversity, they may not know that the writing panel reflects different communities than probably, you know, the majority of children's content out there with that sort of focus. What does that mean for you personally? But also what do you think for society and for the next generation?
00:23:45:18 - 00:23:53:06
Unknown
Growing up thinking about community cohesion, thinking about representation. It's quite a powerful message, isn't it?
00:23:53:08 - 00:24:17:08
Unknown
It is a powerful. And we didn't know at the time that it was the first black British animation. And as I sit here today, there hasn't been any other black British animation coming through which I had hoped. And I do have another one that's in development, DiDio and Co. So why always I always use an example that I use for books, and here's one I made earlier.
00:24:17:10 - 00:24:44:11
Unknown
If I use my book Ma and Marlene the Great Big Tidy Up. Around 30 years ago, a professor, Doctor Rudin Bishop. Her famous essay was called mirrors, windows and Sliding Glass Doors and so on this page here Myron Marley, Mario Marley start their day with their favorite breakfast cornmeal porridge. Maya loves the nutmeg and Marley loves the ginger.
00:24:44:13 - 00:25:22:20
Unknown
It reminds them of Auntie Babs recipe from Grenada. So the majority of the children who are from a Caribbean background would have at some point had call mill porridge. So that's the mirrors. So those children can see themselves in this book. It's really good for their self-esteem, for their self-worth, etc.. And then the windows is for other children to start developing, developing that curiosity, what is called more porridge and the sliding glass doors is they enter into that world and compare.
00:25:23:00 - 00:26:00:24
Unknown
Is Cornwall porridge the same as the porridge we have in the UK? They might find a Cornwall porridge recipe and taste Cornwall porridge. So diversity on the television, diversity in children's books benefits every single child to do that. Leaning in, learning and listening. And it helps children feel that they are part of a global village. Similarly, if it's a book that shows two mums, two dads, a disability, a child in kinship care fostered, adopted.
00:26:01:00 - 00:26:25:17
Unknown
If a child has a disability themselves, children need to see themselves in books and for other children to to learn. I use it as saying which is Sainsbury's old strapline heading. It was Sainsbury's old strapline which was try something new today. What is new for children? So the children have learned about Cornwall porridge today?
00:26:25:19 - 00:26:36:08
Unknown
Yeah, I think it's a great message. And, you know, some parents might say, you know, it's too too early or my child's too young to have those types of conversations.
00:26:36:10 - 00:26:59:22
Unknown
They're not the sort of the lack of familiarity, maybe confusing or problematic. I know that you've done a lot of research around what's the kind of earliest stage, when should you be introducing these different concepts and understanding that families are diverse? There's lots of differences. Also lots of commonalities too. What would your kind of the evidence, the evidence that you've found show around?
00:26:59:22 - 00:27:13:24
Unknown
How should a parent or how could a parent be introducing these different types of concepts, different families. But as you say, whether it's race, whether it's different makeups of the of the multitude of different families that exist in modern Britain,
00:27:13:24 - 00:27:17:02
Unknown
what should parents be doing in those really early years you've been to?
00:27:17:05 - 00:27:42:22
Unknown
I think it's so important to be open with children. If a child asked you a question. Obviously age, stage and ability, I would say to, you know, your child, you know, what they need to know in terms of what they're going to actually to comprehend. And for me, when I was growing up, I never knew about Duvall as a celebration Lunar New Year.
00:27:42:22 - 00:28:04:11
Unknown
And isn't it? You know, my children are now coming up soon, 29 and 33, and they have fond memories of things I did with them, and they were little. Oh, mum, do you want me to go to to Chinatown, the Chinese New Year? They remember all of that. They remember some of their friends celebrating Duvall and different things like that.
00:28:04:11 - 00:28:28:16
Unknown
And I think it is important that we make children culturally aware in the early years. We use this term cultural capital. This is all about cultural capital as well. And I think with regards to race, sometimes there's a an argument, sometimes people say, but I don't see race, but we do see race because I saw an example the other day.
00:28:28:16 - 00:28:52:13
Unknown
Well, you do see and they said, but we don't see color. And I think this quote was saying, but you do see color if you're driving because the traffic lights color strange, you know. So I know it's coming from a kind place. If someone says, but I don't see color, we treat everybody the same. But that's not helpful to somebody like myself.
00:28:52:13 - 00:29:17:03
Unknown
I am a black woman who is dyslexic, so I've been to some places as an author, and it's not a diverse era. And I can sometimes see children look in. And once a few years ago, I was reading to Jojo and Gregory and at the corner of my eye could see this child really looking at me, and he said, Laura, you've got brown skin.
00:29:17:06 - 00:29:46:20
Unknown
And. And I said, yes, that's right. And what color is your skin? And we use that opportunity, which I start in my book, My skin, your skin, that first page, we talk about similarities and differences, that we have similarities and we have differences. And we I expanded that like the theorist Bruner said, I was scaffold in the conversation and then looking at different hair coloring, etc., what we like and what we don't like.
00:29:46:22 - 00:30:06:20
Unknown
And after the teacher said to me, oh, I'm glad you said that, because if you wasn't here, I would have actually had a gentle word to say. We don't say that. And I said no. We have to see that as a teachable moment, because the child could see that I'm different from him. So use it as a way to say, yes, you're absolutely correct.
00:30:06:22 - 00:30:34:21
Unknown
Yes they are, they are. Absolutely. But saying that some children are curious. I've heard stories of, you know, within preschools and nurseries where children as young as three have said something offensive to another child about their skin color, and we need to have conversations about that as well. That happens that young children within their early years do experience racism, sometimes from their peers.
00:30:34:21 - 00:30:48:14
Unknown
That's why we do need to have positive representation of books, of toys and of resources. And equally to there was that famous clerk and clerk doll study,
00:30:48:16 - 00:31:02:07
Unknown
and even black children saw themselves negatively. I've had parents say to me, Laura, my child is of Asian origin. They've just started school. They've come home saying they don't want to be brown.
00:31:02:07 - 00:31:32:01
Unknown
So I always say it's so important that children can see themselves positively in books. And then the because the next book in Maya and Marley is all about friendship. So yes, Maya and Marley, they are to black characters. But this book covers so many themes around community transitions. It's great for children starting school, so they learn about Cornwall porridge, they learn the different characters they have.
00:31:32:01 - 00:31:49:20
Unknown
And the illustrator of this book, you may, was Scott again because of my early years, hat is about seeing characters in books, for example with disability, with visual, with the Leonard on if it's a child who may have autism, etc., etc.
00:31:49:23 - 00:31:51:06
Unknown
Yeah, it's so important.
00:31:51:07 - 00:32:24:11
Unknown
And what do you see kind of the best settings doing? What do you know? Is there you sort of spoken powerfully a couple of scenarios, and I think you're saying it's about having the open conversations with the scaffolding to what do you see the best, whether it's nurseries or childminders or schools, what do you see the best in class kind of way of having these conversations, opening the door to helping a child understand really what the world looks like.
00:32:24:13 - 00:33:00:23
Unknown
I have seen so many great examples, George, around the UK of settings that doing so much around diversity, inclusion, using children's books, national Year of reading books always have to be in there and the way that they come at it from and holistic viewpoint. So for instance how they work with parents. So one particular one, it stands that there are many, but I'm just saying this one because it's in my head, which is the Grove Nursery School, which is in an underserved area in Peckham in London.
00:33:00:24 - 00:33:24:05
Unknown
Their practice is just amazing. So when I was visiting one day, they had parents coming in to share their food. And food is a fantastic way of opening up into other worlds and into other cultures. And one parent he made, I think this parent made bread, and he was even saying, oh, it's not going to be that great.
00:33:24:06 - 00:33:52:12
Unknown
We haven't got the right oven, I haven't got the right equipment. I was just thinking he was so passionate about showing the food, and none of them took money from the nursery school. This was all out of their own money. Another parent made enough dish all from around the world and then linking that back into books, experiences and bread is a good one because I think every single country has their own bread, right?
00:33:52:18 - 00:34:22:21
Unknown
I know we do in Saint Lucia, so I think it's important. And showing diversity, as I said, within books, the Grove, loads of other different Thomas Corum where I was today at College Green, and the display of books they have, they show bilingualism in the nursery, really and truly working with the parents and the wider community as well.
00:34:22:23 - 00:34:30:20
Unknown
Brilliant. I think. Yeah, you're so right around making sure that you have those shared cultural moments. We see it a lot in our settings
00:34:30:20 - 00:34:36:02
Unknown
when parents were having lunch together. Exactly. The variety of different
00:34:36:07 - 00:34:47:15
Unknown
communities that make up a baby zone or sitting down eating lunch. Oftentimes it's a jacket potato, so they might be having a very kind of typically English meal, but they'll be from all around the world.
00:34:47:15 - 00:35:06:07
Unknown
And it's so nice to see again those shared experiences which which is great. I wanted to touch on something because you mentioned it as well. Daddio and co, obviously centering on fatherhood, something that I'm very interested in. And you know, we've kind of the deliberate creative choice from yourself to go into that, that aspect of parenting, I guess.
00:35:06:13 - 00:35:16:15
Unknown
What does talking about father content that centers a father do from a developmental standpoint, but also, again, for some of these topics that we've just been discussing as well,
00:35:16:15 - 00:35:27:18
Unknown
I think it's so important that we send her father's in a positive light, because I know now going into many different settings
00:35:27:18 - 00:35:32:09
Unknown
fathers are involved in many aspects now, more so than ever.
00:35:32:12 - 00:36:02:17
Unknown
And my colleague Elliot Ray, I don't know if you know him. He does some great work on fatherhood and campaigning for paternity rights, etc. so Daddio and co came from from an initial idea probably around six years ago. Lived experience again because I used to work. Away quite a lot. And so my husband then he used to look after my boys when I was away.
00:36:02:22 - 00:36:39:24
Unknown
And in Daddio and Co the premises is that mum works full time and because dad is a journalist, he does the bulk of the caring and we're seeing a lot more of that now, where we have dads who are staying at home to do the bulk of the parenting and the mum going out to work. And I wanted to show that visually and equally too, because they are a black family, a positive role model in a black dad, because it's very rare that we see that.
00:36:39:24 - 00:36:57:23
Unknown
We sometimes see a lot of negativity around black men. And I think it is important that coming back to mirrors, windows and sliding doors, that visually we do see all men in a positive light. So it's I say it's like it's tender masculinity.
00:36:58:00 - 00:37:20:03
Unknown
it is a shift, isn't it? You see a lot more dads that are working from home able to support more from a the family unit to a much greater extent. It's very important, as you say, it's captured in literature and in sort of what children see across their classrooms, across their nursery rooms, the different people that might do pick up or drop
00:37:20:07 - 00:37:39:01
Unknown
I'd love to touch on some of the other work you do. The whole host of things. We may not have time to capture all of it, but you also sitting on the National Play Commission and the work there in terms of the national inquiry into play, and obviously Maya and Mali books are in an adventure playground and sort of being in that sort of setting.
00:37:39:04 - 00:38:03:18
Unknown
And I guess we talk about children's, you know, we want them to enjoy their early childhood. We want them to play and, and do things unstructured outside, you know, in an environment that's made for them. What are we doing to make sure we're protecting those moments that children can play? But also, is there something that you think, you know we should be doing more of?
00:38:03:18 - 00:38:06:04
Unknown
What would you as part of your role on the commission?
00:38:06:06 - 00:38:13:20
Unknown
What do you do? Yes. So we that report came out last year. It was about a year. There were many different experts on that.
00:38:13:22 - 00:39:05:10
Unknown
We were all commissioners as experts. And I think yes, I think now children are having less and less time to play within school as well. They have less time to play, to be outside. I mean, there were so many different aspects that we covered in that report as well, and it was quite robust interviewing parents. But I feel we do need to have more conversations around what is play, the reasons why children are playing less, and how as a society, we can come together in a sort of it takes a village approach that children can play safely outside and there are enough green spaces and really hone in on the reasons why some communities why
00:39:05:10 - 00:39:37:01
Unknown
they're not. Why, why, why children within certain communities do not go outside to play. For an example, there was some some parents feel quite frightened now because under the present climate, because of their own community and how visually they may look, so they don't they're afraid to go out into certain spaces and, and also to sometimes parents not knowing that they are free play spaces within their community.
00:39:37:06 - 00:39:49:09
Unknown
So it's about how we can make sure that every child of, in their early years, under the rights of the child, has full access to play opportunities.
00:39:49:11 - 00:39:52:24
Unknown
Yeah. So true. And we want to make sure that we protect those spaces,
00:39:53:01 - 00:39:55:19
Unknown
exactly, absolutely
00:39:55:21 - 00:40:05:18
Unknown
for for parents. We've touched on a lot and you had a lot of experience, as you said, working across not just UK settings but global contexts.
00:40:05:24 - 00:40:27:09
Unknown
We've touched on a few of the challenges and the difficulties that parents face. I guess to end on a positive note, perhaps what gives you the most hope? What gives you the sense of positivity about things that are improving and shifted to the better, but also what you think? Hopefully we can continue to improve as we go forward in this space.
00:40:27:09 - 00:40:59:17
Unknown
I think everything needs to come back to the child, the voice of the child, the child at the center and one of the quotes that I always share when I see a report, it could be a family whose homeless, the amount of children who are homeless, currently living in temporary accommodation. For an education point of view, I feel there's three areas we must always look at education, housing and health for children and their families.
00:40:59:22 - 00:41:42:24
Unknown
And I always quote the late, great Nelson Mandela and I probably say this quote incorrectly, that we can tell us as a society by the way it treats his children. And I think from politicians all the way down, we always must remember that. How are we treating children? That should always be the question front and center of every single policy, because every single policy, although it may not, for instance, come from the Education department, it does always indirectly have an impact on children, whether it's from the Housing Department, Department of Work and Pensions, everything.
00:41:42:24 - 00:41:57:04
Unknown
So I think there needs to be sometimes joined up. Thinking holistically is, for instance, the National Year of Reading comes under the Department of Education, but they should have been some involvement. I feel. I cannot remember the full title from the Cultural department
00:41:57:04 - 00:41:58:12
Unknown
Yeah, I've got a culture and media and
00:41:58:12 - 00:42:00:11
Unknown
sport, that's the one. I think they should have been.
00:42:00:11 - 00:42:18:24
Unknown
Some joined up thinking because we should have been in a snow, you know, where you have the City of Culture, I cannot remember where is it leads now it's in or Sheffield I cannot remember and I know we have London cultural ones, is that every single local authority with the National Year of Reading should have put on a big event.
00:42:18:24 - 00:42:27:09
Unknown
So again, left and right hand sometimes not speaking. So everything. How are we treating children?
00:42:27:12 - 00:42:29:16
Unknown
Yeah. So important. And that's why we exist as
00:42:29:19 - 00:42:36:08
Unknown
well. Yeah. Thank you for the work that babies does. Yeah. Thank you for the work that you do and continue to do.
00:42:36:11 - 00:42:47:03
Unknown
a quick fire round and some of the questions I've got here? If you had one word to describe the first five years of a child's life, what would it be?
00:42:47:05 - 00:42:48:16
Unknown
Joyful.
00:42:48:18 - 00:42:55:23
Unknown
And if you had one book other than your own, that you would put in the hands of every parent across the country, what would it
00:42:56:00 - 00:42:58:15
Unknown
Trish cook so much.
00:42:58:17 - 00:43:10:23
Unknown
What do you think? What's one thing that the early years sector educators and policy makers should stop saying or stop doing right now?
00:43:11:00 - 00:43:12:18
Unknown
Testing children.
00:43:12:20 - 00:43:22:10
Unknown
I like your phrase keep on. Try and keep on smiling. What has tested that the most in your career?
00:43:22:12 - 00:43:23:22
Unknown
Broadcasting.
00:43:23:24 - 00:43:35:14
Unknown
And what do you think this one is like? What do you think that children understand that most adults have lost?
00:43:35:16 - 00:43:39:21
Unknown
Joy. Joy again? Yeah, joy.
00:43:39:23 - 00:43:41:13
Unknown
we should be joyful in everything,
00:43:41:15 - 00:43:52:24
Unknown
And I think we should. It comes back to being childlike, doesn't it? Again. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. No. You're welcome. The time to talk to you today. And thank you to everyone listening. Thank you.
00:43:53:01 - 00:44:14:17
Unknown
What I keep coming back to you from this conversation is finding that awareness comes in infancy, not just at school, not just when a child can have that conversation, but right from the very beginning. And it means that the environments, the images, the books, the faces that a baby are surrounded by in those first months is doing enormous developmental work.
00:44:14:19 - 00:44:25:18
Unknown
It means that every decision that an early year setting or a parent makes about the walls, the books, the staff, the language is a developmental decision, not just a values one.
00:44:25:20 - 00:44:35:16
Unknown
If you remember one thing, the early years, don't wait for children to be old enough to notice. Children are noticing from the very beginning. The question is, what are they seeing?
00:44:35:18 - 00:44:47:15
Unknown
Thank you so much for listening to Best Beginnings, a podcast from Baby Zone. For more evidence informed support on babies and the early years, please subscribe to this channel.
00:44:47:19 - 00:44:51:03
Unknown
If you found this helpful, please share it with someone who might need it.
00:44:51:03 - 00:44:53:05
Unknown
Thank you. We'll see you next time.
00:44:53:10 - 00:44:53:17
Unknown
We.