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The Spend Table is where cost and spend intelligence gets served up fresh—and no topic is too spicy to tackle. Join three finance and procurement leaders for respectful debate (not head-nodding) on what really matters when managing software spend. All powered by real data insights.
Michael [0:00:06]: Alright.
Michael [0:00:06]: Well, we are here in Brooklyn at the Black Mountain Wine House.
Michael [0:00:11]: Is that right?
Michael [0:00:11]: Shout to Brooklyn, Justin's from Brooklyn, by the way, he's got a lot of pride for Brooklyn.
Michael [0:00:15]: And tomorrow kicks off DPW, which one of the bigger procurement events in the world and and certainly growing and there's a lot of excitement about that.
Michael [0:00:23]: And we're joined today by Isa Rivera, from who she manages IT procurement at Coursera.
Michael [0:00:30]: Great.
Michael [0:00:31]: Awesome.
Michael [0:00:31]: Well, you know, let's let's dump your story a little bit.
Michael [0:00:34]: So you've kinda moved around a few industries is you just went through an acquisition, which we're get into a little bit.
Michael [0:00:40]: And now you're, like the rest of us figuring out this this world of of Ai.
Michael [0:00:43]: But, you know, as we dig into your story, procurement something you fell into what...
Michael [0:00:49]: And and maybe, like, what made you stay?
Isa [0:00:52]: So I started early on.
Isa [0:00:54]: And I didn't know it was procurement.
Isa [0:00:56]: It wasn't c procurement.
Michael [0:00:58]: Okay.
Isa [0:00:58]: That was the interesting part.
Isa [0:01:00]: And I went into sales and circle.
Isa [0:01:03]: I did a career change.
Isa [0:01:04]: I went from sales, and I said, what I want to do.
Isa [0:01:07]: And the one thing that always attracted me about procurement was the diversity in the day.
Isa [0:01:12]: You could be negotiating, you could be talking to a vendor, stakeholder requirements, and it's not a day to today same type of job.
Isa [0:01:22]: Or tactical all the time.
Isa [0:01:25]: There could be fire to put out.
Michael [0:01:28]: So you didn't wanna be bored.
Isa [0:01:30]: Exactly.
Isa [0:01:30]: Dynamic.
Isa [0:01:30]: Right.
Isa [0:01:31]: One of my job to be dynamic.
Isa [0:01:33]: And I went back, and I went to citrix and Id two on contracts for them for a little bit.
Isa [0:01:41]: And went to Ec telecom and subsequently Bt and and T Mobile Technology, procurement fiber optics updates primarily.
Isa [0:01:51]: And at for sarah, I'm Focus on It saas stack.
Michael [0:01:56]: Forum.
Michael [0:01:56]: And you sit within It, You don't report your It, you know, or I a finance etcetera.
Michael [0:02:02]: Yeah.
Michael [0:02:02]: And you seem to like that.
Isa [0:02:03]: I love it.
Isa [0:02:04]: It makes the difference in the world.
Isa [0:02:06]: It's very innovative.
Isa [0:02:08]: A lot of efficiencies.
Isa [0:02:09]: And so we're used to reporting on their finance primarily, or maybe if the company has a Cpu organization, it's completely different It's a game changer.
Michael [0:02:20]: You feel like a lot of people understand what it is truly that you do from a procurement point of view?
Isa [0:02:26]: You surely people don't.
Isa [0:02:27]: When they ask me what I do, I do procurement.
Isa [0:02:31]: I don't even mention an It because they may...
Isa [0:02:33]: Think.
Isa [0:02:34]: Oh, you're an It person know.
Isa [0:02:35]: And so majority of the people is, we all know and procurement.
Isa [0:02:40]: We'll say what is that?
Isa [0:02:42]: So the Easier way to explain it to somebody has been I buy products, and I negotiate contracts.
Isa [0:02:50]: That's a simplistic way of telling anyone what I did.
Michael [0:02:55]: How do you could buy the definition Justin?
Justin [0:02:57]: I think that's right.
Justin [0:02:57]: I think that I think it's...
Justin [0:02:59]: It might be selling yourself a little short in terms of, you know, all of the...
Justin [0:03:02]: The complexity of stakeholder management and, you know, all of the, like, relationship side, which is what I always find to be fascinating about the role of procurement is maintaining relationships on of your your stakeholders internally.
Justin [0:03:16]: But also the relationships of your stakeholders externally and the people that you need to satisfy on both ends of the spectrum, and I find that hard balance to strike.
Justin [0:03:26]: Everyone's gonna be either a little upset, maybe a little happy, but never, one hundred percent satisfied or happy about every outcome.
Isa [0:03:36]: And everything is urgent?
Isa [0:03:36]: Right.
Isa [0:03:37]: That's right.
Michael [0:03:39]: Yeah.
Michael [0:03:39]: And then there's always that balance of how much do I explain isn't it worth it anyway.
Michael [0:03:43]: But maybe brings up a more important question of, do you feel like your key stakeholders understand or question the strategic value that you bring to the organization.
Isa [0:03:55]: Initially, when you start a corporation, they don't know you.
Isa [0:03:57]: So you have to build that report that trust.
Isa [0:04:00]: For them to know that they could truly rely on you.
Isa [0:04:03]: And at Course sarah, it took a few months.
Isa [0:04:07]: The rest is history, I'm at the company for four years now operating and and running all of the It steps tech stack for the group of technology, product, Cio and data.
Isa [0:04:22]: And so it grew from being only It and then eventually engineering to a broader team.
Justin [0:04:30]: Do you remember, like, a a breakthrough moment with one of your stakeholders where I was, like, yes.
Justin [0:04:35]: I've I've earned my trust.
Justin [0:04:36]: Like, we are now off the races?
Isa [0:04:39]: Yeah.
Isa [0:04:39]: There was when the director senior director of engineering that This is my tech stack for In front.
Isa [0:04:46]: I want her to negotiate and remove all this burden from my team of doing the vendor management and negotiations the renewal, and all these other plus a tactical portion.
Isa [0:04:59]: Right?
Isa [0:04:59]: They're creating the Pos and submit in the workflows and all those other details.
Isa [0:05:03]: No one wants to bother with those.
Isa [0:05:05]: Right?
Isa [0:05:06]: So that piece was where he realized she did good with this contract.
Isa [0:05:13]: I wanted to see that bottom all the other contracts.
Michael [0:05:17]: So you got a quick win.
Michael [0:05:18]: It sounds like it's three months.
Michael [0:05:20]: That's...
Michael [0:05:20]: Obviously say that's that's my months
Justin [0:05:23]: a year to earn credibility and.
Isa [0:05:26]: No.
Isa [0:05:26]: It was I was a first procurement person at Coursera syrup in across the the company, and a month and they hire someone out on their finance, but my focus was...
Isa [0:05:36]: All the contracts for the It team.
Isa [0:05:38]: And so it just built from there when they were seeing that I was implementing processes with my manager and developing all of these efficiencies, and then doing end to end procurement with white glove treatment where Us a stakeholder didn't have to engage unless I needed you to speak to a vendor on the technical aspects of what you needed or changes on the contract, etcetera relating to just the technical piece.
Isa [0:06:07]: I managed the rest.
Isa [0:06:08]: They were happy.
Isa [0:06:09]: They didn't have to do anything else.
Isa [0:06:10]: Exactly.
Isa [0:06:11]: To this day, I have executives that come directly to me we have channels for the whole team and emails for the whole team.
Isa [0:06:20]: And this week, one of them said, I will always come to you.
Isa [0:06:24]: And so I appreciate it, but it also and they're ent you with handling everything and not consuming their time with nuances so they could actually focus on day to day business, which is the key for for the engineering team.
Justin [0:06:44]: I feel like there's a, like, be careful for what you wish wish for in that moment of, like, okay.
Justin [0:06:48]: We really trust procurement to to help us out, and now you're now you're drowning and and all of the the work that others are ent you to to take on.
Isa [0:06:58]: But with that drowning comes, new resources.
Isa [0:07:01]: Sure.
Isa [0:07:02]: So we grew the team.
Isa [0:07:03]: We hire someone else junior that has learned in a year, a year and a half.
Isa [0:07:08]: All of what I've done and learning the contracts and taking training for the contracts to bring him up to scale.
Isa [0:07:18]: Yeah.
Isa [0:07:19]: And that's amazing.
Isa [0:07:20]: Yeah, you know, for us to be able to do do that and share that knowledge with him as well.
Michael [0:07:25]: Yeah.
Michael [0:07:25]: I do know that people especially in this market are struggling to get some of those resources.
Michael [0:07:29]: And so, you know, one thing we talk a lot about traffic is how do we do more with less, but maybe other types of resources And, of course, we're we're big about.
Michael [0:07:38]: Supplier intelligence and benchmarking, things like that which help us move faster.
Michael [0:07:42]: But I do recall that having a similar situation, stood up a procurement function, got some early wins start to see some of that more demand went to ask for a resource and the answer was no.
Michael [0:07:53]: But then luckily, the Cto was, like, I need more support and I said well, Need more head count, and it was the Cto going to the Cfo saying, we need this head count that finally kind of unlocked that.
Michael [0:08:03]: I wanna double click though on and one thing that you said is it doesn't sound like your...
Michael [0:08:07]: Dating what you work on.
Michael [0:08:10]: It sounds like I'm don't wanna put words out but part of the value proposition is saving sure, but also taking that off of the plate.
Michael [0:08:18]: Do I do I hear that correctly or no?
Isa [0:08:20]: Correct.
Isa [0:08:20]: So yes, The focus is always savings.
Isa [0:08:22]: As with any procurement organization.
Isa [0:08:25]: But in my model, we focus also on taking on all of the end to end procurement men white glove treatment for or teams
Justin [0:08:36]: So Dave...
Michael [0:08:37]: It doesn't matter size contract.
Isa [0:08:39]: It's no.
Isa [0:08:39]: We do Poc or proof of value, zero value up to multimillion millions.
Isa [0:08:48]: So it does not matter.
Isa [0:08:49]: We manage all this spend.
Michael [0:08:51]: Well, you so first, you went through a...
Michael [0:08:53]: You went through an acquisition.
Michael [0:08:54]: We acquired a company.
Michael [0:08:55]: Who to me?
Michael [0:08:55]: Is that alright?
Michael [0:08:56]: Who?
Michael [0:08:56]: That You say that right?
Michael [0:08:57]: Yeah.
Michael [0:08:58]: I wanna talk a little bit about that, But maybe while you're talking about that.
Michael [0:09:01]: So that typically brings in new volume, new projects, there's consolidation.
Michael [0:09:06]: There's
Isa [0:09:07]: a lot of activity...
Justin [0:09:09]: Like new culture too, because, you know, you obviously earned a lot of the credibility as part of the course aerial work, But now there's a new team that may feel completely different about the role of procurement.
Isa [0:09:19]: That they have their own processes and is trying to migrate, emerge were is a cohesive for both of the teams.
Isa [0:09:25]: And, of course, always trying to find the best way for everyone on the company at the end of the day to work with the new teams, and then see where we could do improvements, and, of course, collaborate on the systems because they may use the different system that we do or the same thing with the merger with Sprint and T Mobile.
Isa [0:09:45]: I was there for the telecom portion, and it was the same thing consolidation of the fiber lines.
Isa [0:09:50]: And so it it still goes back to let's evaluate the contracts.
Isa [0:09:55]: What are the terms where priorities are, Are we going to be able to migrate now?
Isa [0:10:01]: Where we need to wait and migrate later on those kind of things.
Isa [0:10:04]: And so it's not just realized relies on procurement it realize relies also heavily on the business because I know how the tools are connected.
Isa [0:10:11]: In my case, it's Ssa stack.
Isa [0:10:14]: So we have to rely on them to do a holistic evaluation of everything not just from Coursera there or not just from you to me side, and then we come in with the contract and pre send the options.
Isa [0:10:27]: And they're running with the decisions because they know best they know the tools and integrations and everything that is required to migrate.
Isa [0:10:36]: Those still same thing at T Mobile on Sprint.
Michael [0:10:38]: You know, I interested in Justin, when she's was talking maybe think about a lot of the M and A activity we're seeing in in the procure tech space.
Michael [0:10:45]: They And I think that that's not specific to, you know, the space plan.
Michael [0:10:49]: I think it's gonna be...
Michael [0:10:50]: We're gonna see that trend happening really across Sas by a bit.
Michael [0:10:53]: So if you had a recommendation for another procurement person who was you know, going through that acquisition merging process, what's what's a hint or suggestion or two that you would recommend to...
Michael [0:11:08]: For them to have success in that.
Michael [0:11:10]: Is that that can be a Hairy World,
Isa [0:11:13]: So if you're invited to the table to participate in the pre merger honor the Nda.
Justin [0:11:21]: Start with the basics.
Isa [0:11:21]: Yes.
Isa [0:11:21]: Please.
Isa [0:11:22]: Yes.
Isa [0:11:22]: Please very important and interest transparency and and follow the rules, see your teams provide you around that beyond the elementary piece of the pre merger once teams connect and start getting acquainted to build the relationship before you start diving in into the world, try to connect and get to know each other.
Isa [0:11:44]: See what your lights are what you have come on because the road ahead is going to be hard, and it's going to be a lot of work.
Isa [0:11:53]: And there's is going to be clashes.
Isa [0:11:55]: It always happens, But when you're emerging, there's also uncertainty, and there's a lot of questions about crosses.
Isa [0:12:02]: Even just from the time that emerges announced or an acquisition, it it's always the same.
Isa [0:12:08]: It doesn't matter what company or what's how big where small the company is.
Isa [0:12:11]: So I would recommend to teams to to take a step back, let things go and just wait for direction, wait for your management to communicate with next and process, it will take time to implement and to be able to to achieve the goal because at the end of the day, everybody has the same goal.
Justin [0:12:33]: Yeah.
Justin [0:12:33]: We see a lot.
Justin [0:12:34]: Like, a lot of our our customers that are going either through mergers have been acquired acquiring.
Justin [0:12:39]: And I think there's always this period of uncertainty with procurement because, you know, it's one of those functions that everyone knows is ripe for consolidation, but also at the meet...
Justin [0:12:49]: At the same time, you know, you have the best knowledge of the tech stack and, you know, the...
Justin [0:12:55]: What's a sacred cow and what's critical and and trying to navigate that tension between what's my future look like at this organization while also planks to critical role in helping navigate the transition.
Justin [0:13:06]: Like, it's...
Justin [0:13:07]: I can imagine it's like, a really, like, interesting heads space to be in for for that period of time.
Isa [0:13:13]: So I've been through reorganization at British Telecom and and a couple of the companies.
Isa [0:13:18]: So I already have that sensitivity to say, nah it's going to happen one way or another.
Isa [0:13:24]: Whether I do it on my terms or not.
Isa [0:13:26]: That's really the question.
Isa [0:13:27]: So it depends on an individual's tolerance of are they willing to wait and see what happens?
Isa [0:13:34]: Or are they going to put the best foot forward and complete task at hand.
Isa [0:13:41]: To demonstrate their value.
Justin [0:13:43]: Sure.
Isa [0:13:43]: And at the end of the day, at any company doesn't matter what role you're in, what's important is you demonstrating that value continuously and growing.
Isa [0:13:52]: If you don't grow and you're staying in a position You could move lateral because they improving your value added knowledge and experience and so on, but a lot of people feel that, oh, no.
Isa [0:14:06]: I don't want to wait away...
Isa [0:14:07]: I have a mortgage or whatever the case maybe.
Isa [0:14:10]: Right?
Isa [0:14:10]: And so they may actually say...
Isa [0:14:13]: No.
Isa [0:14:14]: I resigned...
Isa [0:14:14]: I went somewhere else.
Isa [0:14:16]: Right?
Isa [0:14:16]: It is a lot of work.
Isa [0:14:17]: Doesn't matter how late you come into a role in a merger acquisition or a re it is going to be a lot of work.
Isa [0:14:26]: And a lot of unknowns.
Isa [0:14:28]: And so people that have a little bit more tolerance about working with the gritty, they're going to to survive their whole process.
Isa [0:14:37]: Now whether they'll keep them more known.
Isa [0:14:38]: That's a difference.
Isa [0:14:39]: Story.
Justin [0:14:40]: Right.
Justin [0:14:40]: I see a lot of, like, I I can understand why there's a tendency towards cy in those moments.
Justin [0:14:45]: So just, like, oh, you know, procurement it always gets the axe, you know, as part of a merger and that cloud the...
Justin [0:14:51]: Kind of the opportunity that that can present in terms of new learnings, new, you know, relationships, new responsibilities, but I do think it definitely takes a certain perspective around and comfort with ambiguity to be able to, kinda of power through that.
Michael [0:15:07]: So the M and A piece is important shifting gears to something that also, I think is a little Hairy and takes time and and...
Michael [0:15:15]: But it's this this whole world of Ai.
Michael [0:15:18]: Do you think the value proposition of procurement has evolved?
Michael [0:15:22]: From where it was couple years ago to where this today?
Isa [0:15:26]: It remains, but it has changed a little bit.
Isa [0:15:28]: It just really depends on the organization and how they use Ai and what they use it for.
Isa [0:15:36]: In the case of procurement, my company, we use it.
Isa [0:15:40]: We use all the L.
Isa [0:15:41]: We are very proponent of teaching our employees to use it.
Isa [0:15:46]: Right?
Isa [0:15:47]: In the case of tools within procurement that we use whether there's tropics, or anyone else that has built in Ai, there is are some tools that could be leveraged to improve our efficiencies and and make or day to date better automation and and things like that.
Isa [0:16:06]: It is up to us to overcome our internal restrictions or or, lack, of knowledge on how to best use it personally, and also when you have challenges within the company to approve such tools.
Isa [0:16:22]: I still find that there's a large volume of procurement people out there that their corporations are not using.
Isa [0:16:30]: And when I've gone to previous procurement conferences.
Isa [0:16:33]: This is my first one for Dp.
Isa [0:16:35]: With the to be.
Isa [0:16:37]: I've been to gardeners and a few other ones.
Isa [0:16:40]: I found that over time, there has been an increase of procurement staff using it.
Isa [0:16:44]: But I don't see half of the room saying, I am.
Justin [0:16:48]: It's the year.
Isa [0:16:49]: I am using our situation.
Isa [0:16:51]: I am used...
Isa [0:16:51]: I'm creating an agent.
Isa [0:16:53]: I had the opportunity to work with an Ai manager specialist within It group.
Isa [0:16:58]: I love working for It, and he's proposed something to someone about making an efficiency and can't contract order review and submissions.
Isa [0:17:08]: There was always the same things that run over the entity.
Isa [0:17:10]: Yeah.
Isa [0:17:10]: There's all the basic.
Isa [0:17:11]: And so I was the first review on a contract, and I said, oh, take you up on that.
Isa [0:17:17]: We spent an hour and a half to almost two hours on a Friday in improvise, and he helped me do the prompting, And he were asked me questions, and I told him, these are the issues.
Isa [0:17:26]: We tested it.
Isa [0:17:28]: We tested it.
Isa [0:17:29]: Voila.
Isa [0:17:30]: We had an agent bill on an L that provided.
Isa [0:17:37]: Contract review the output was...
Isa [0:17:39]: Yes.
Isa [0:17:39]: It's missing the inc.
Isa [0:17:40]: Yes.
Isa [0:17:41]: The address is wrong.
Isa [0:17:42]: Yes.
Isa [0:17:43]: It does not have...
Isa [0:17:44]: The terms you're seeking And all these elementary details, commercial details.
Isa [0:17:49]: So what it would take me reviewing x amount of contracts or order forms, it was instant.
Isa [0:17:57]: It saved so much time.
Isa [0:17:58]: And so those kind of efficiencies is what I find that.
Isa [0:18:02]: Or procurement teams across are not tapping into.
Isa [0:18:06]: That are simple a simple agents that could be built for them to get that that quick move and turnaround around because the...
Isa [0:18:14]: The L would spit out based on what we provided.
Isa [0:18:17]: On that output, a letter that I literally copy and paste it with a click and send it to the vendor correct all of this.
Justin [0:18:27]: I love the the person you described, the, like, the Ai Evangelist in the It department.
Justin [0:18:31]: I'm I'm seeing that role become so so valuable in terms of this Ai functionality expert that can then, you know, tag into different, you know, teams and departments to figure out, like, what's your biggest problem Let's go build an agent to solve for it, and it's happening all everywhere.
Justin [0:18:48]: You know, for across our customers.
Justin [0:18:50]: I know everyone is thinking about the agents they can be building within procurement, which is great because not to no offense to any anyone out there, but, like, procurement isn't often known as the most forward thinking, function from a, like, a technology adoption and an and the innovation standpoint.
Justin [0:19:06]: But I think that procurement is chronically under staffed under resourced and and burdened with these really time consuming tasks So the opportunity with Ai to build it into your workflows and the agents to do these types of reviews is so massive to unlock more strategic, more proactive time that you can use.
Michael [0:19:26]: Yes.
Michael [0:19:26]: It was funny.
Michael [0:19:27]: I was, conference a few weeks ago, and and we're at a round table.
Michael [0:19:30]: I don't know It's ten people there, and we went around, like, what's the one role If you could unlock a head count.
Michael [0:19:36]: What's the one role you hire for on your team.
Michael [0:19:38]: And it was actually not just an evangelist, but it was, like, Hey, We wanna bring in and have a dedicated...
Michael [0:19:44]: I don't know.
Michael [0:19:45]: Engineer or or something of that nature.
Michael [0:19:48]: I know and I even know, like, some of those, like, talented.
Michael [0:19:50]: Yeah Forgive an engineer.
Michael [0:19:51]: Yeah.
Michael [0:19:51]: Like, go dedicated to the team, and and I know a Salesforce and And I think they...
Michael [0:19:56]: They're...
Michael [0:19:57]: That's, like the world they're hiring for right now is to, you wanna to, you know, pick that person and put them on sight what a customer type with thing.
Michael [0:20:04]: Very interesting.
Isa [0:20:05]: So what we did was internally weak week.
Isa [0:20:07]: Put a team together of Ai experts within the different departments, engineering, It and so swan, and this team developed something we call a spark Ai.
Isa [0:20:20]: And they host every two or three months a call where they teach operational teams how to use the tools.
Justin [0:20:29]: Mh.
Isa [0:20:30]: And they give life samples.
Isa [0:20:31]: And so putting in that perspective gives us idea of what to do How we could use it, where we're thinking code.
Isa [0:20:40]: I don't know how to code.
Isa [0:20:42]: You don't need to know how to code with an il.
Isa [0:20:44]: That's that's the first concern someone like me would have.
Isa [0:20:47]: And so the most recent development with an email summary?
Isa [0:20:54]: How many emails do we get in for procurement?
Isa [0:20:56]: How many are sales pitches?
Michael [0:20:59]: Stuck counting.
Isa [0:21:02]: So instead of coming back from a vacation, and going through all those emails, I have an L summary.
Isa [0:21:09]: Yeah.
Isa [0:21:09]: From every day that tells me this are the actionable but once, no spam, whether their spam or no will tell me and it will tell me anything that was addressed to me that I need to work on.
Isa [0:21:22]: And so I could go back and it keeps the whole history in the document.
Isa [0:21:26]: And so that's...
Isa [0:21:27]: That right there saved so much time.
Isa [0:21:29]: Yeah.
Michael [0:21:30]: Are you being called upon?
Michael [0:21:32]: I...
Michael [0:21:32]: What I heard you say earlier is, Course sarah is actively promoting Ai usage within your company?
Michael [0:21:40]: And and we certainly saw and and see that some degree and the bills that are coming in are are big and we're starting to see, oh my gosh.
Michael [0:21:50]: Like, our annual, you know, budget was eaten up in four or five months, whatever in the case maybe be, are you being hold on to start to help manage those Ai costs.
Isa [0:22:05]: So we've changed a little bit or structure.
Isa [0:22:07]: We had application owners that work with the budget owners to maintain those budgets.
Isa [0:22:14]: But tokens are expensive, and you have engineers that are developing things for your company.
Isa [0:22:20]: They're going to consume those tokens faster than most.
Isa [0:22:24]: So what I'm seeing from the Ll in some cases, they are changing their plan structure, Where you're paying a seat plus token, so different companies are changing their structure on their contracts, to be a little bit more flexible.
Isa [0:22:44]: So there's not so many orders forms every time you need to add licenses for additional users.
Isa [0:22:49]: But it still remains an issue.
Isa [0:22:52]: It is something that has to be worked through the or.
Isa [0:22:56]: And the owners of those call centers for them to set the parameters of...
Isa [0:23:01]: Okay.
Isa [0:23:02]: If someone is going to be coding, how much should I want to allocate on that stand.
Isa [0:23:07]: And so if I commit to the stand, the question in my contract is do I lose it if I don't use it?
Isa [0:23:13]: Or will it sit there and it's pool?
Isa [0:23:16]: So those are the different variables that you will have with a different lens.
Isa [0:23:20]: But what I've keep seeing from different technologies solutions that the teams use regardless of L is, at the end of the day, is expand control is a
Justin [0:23:34]: issue.
Justin [0:23:34]: Yeah.
Isa [0:23:34]: It has always been an issue for procurement, and for the cosign center owners, and, of course, for finance.
Isa [0:23:39]: But trying to manage it and and adding additional tools control that span is very important.
Justin [0:23:47]: I think, like, even, I mean, we see it all the time, open and, graphic, you know, they are, as much as they love the...
Justin [0:23:53]: What seems like runaway Ai costs, they also know it's unsustainable from a business standpoint, and you see the backlash from some of the companies that have run through their budgets, the half a billion dollars spent on a month on Ai spend.
Justin [0:24:05]: The kind of popular headlines.
Justin [0:24:07]: And so they're ins more controls on a per person basis in terms of what amount of spend or consumption can you actually take on a month by month or monthly.
Justin [0:24:17]: So we're both seeing the, like, better embedding of controls in the systems.
Justin [0:24:21]: And, you know, one thing we're particularly focused on is, like, the measurement and and track ability of that spend so that you can have a very crystal clear perspective on, you know, where am I at in terms of what I thought I was gonna be paying in terms of what my commit look like because this is just the transition and evolution of the world towards consumption based, token based pricing is we're we're in it and it creates an entirely different paradigm for how your spend controls and and cost management has to be
Isa [0:24:51]: Significant, especially if you're in Q2 two or q1 one, and you already went through your budget.
Isa [0:24:56]: You had you had unplanned projects that allows sudden our priority and development is essential for the business.
Justin [0:25:04]: Yep.
Justin [0:25:04]: What I'm curious have you...
Justin [0:25:05]: Have you seen any policy changes internally around the types of things that people can buy on the It side.
Justin [0:25:13]: Like, you know, I was talking to a customer who...
Justin [0:25:15]: Not only did they say no net new, like, software purchases because they said we wanna see what we can build on our on our own internally.
Justin [0:25:24]: They also said no net new Ai purchases of no may...
Justin [0:25:29]: No Ai, native tools because, like, you described with what you could do and, you know, whatever agent or L you're building in.
Justin [0:25:36]: Those things are now possible to do, you know, natively in those in the system.
Justin [0:25:40]: So I'm curious, of course sarah has shifted as posture around what the team is permitted to buy and not permitted to buy.
Isa [0:25:47]: So in the four years, yes, we have shifted significantly.
Isa [0:25:50]: I came in.
Isa [0:25:51]: I was the first procurement person.
Isa [0:25:52]: There was No guard.
Isa [0:25:54]: And everyone could just on board a vendor and by.
Isa [0:25:59]: And so we set ga around it.
Isa [0:26:02]: And then we try to do some consolidation because there were some redundant on apps in the same verticals.
Isa [0:26:07]: Then sometimes maybe a different team, but same solution.
Isa [0:26:13]: Right?
Isa [0:26:13]: One was better than the other.
Isa [0:26:14]: Functions were a little bit different.
Isa [0:26:16]: People had a preference, and then it took some some vincent by senior management to to connect everyone together and say this is the tool we're going with.
Isa [0:26:26]: Right?
Isa [0:26:26]: So we did...
Isa [0:26:27]: We went some years back.
Isa [0:26:29]: We went through some of that consolidation.
Isa [0:26:31]: Right now, we're, of course, consolidating identical contracts.
Isa [0:26:35]: Right?
Isa [0:26:35]: Because of the merger.
Isa [0:26:37]: But, yeah.
Isa [0:26:39]: There's always new restrictions.
Isa [0:26:40]: There there there has to be.
Isa [0:26:42]: If you don't set limits like, for example, tokens, you would have to be micro managing teams to see that they're truly using it for the intended purpose of work and not for personal use.
Isa [0:26:54]: Right?
Isa [0:26:54]: So you could have people really rack up and build very, very fast with with those type of consumption based contract.
Isa [0:27:04]: And so if you have extra budget great, you could add more to it, but when you run out of that budget, then it becomes an issue because you're trying to maintain certain controls for finance, and on the corporation or stakeholders or investors.
Isa [0:27:20]: Right?
Isa [0:27:21]: And so so it's very important to to try to to stay on track around those And that's something that usually has stakeholders in general do not concern them themselves so they don't even know what the budget is allocated.
Isa [0:27:34]: We don't want them to know what the but is allocated regardless.
Isa [0:27:37]: But at the end of the day, it's that sensitivity of Yes.
Isa [0:27:42]: This is great.
Isa [0:27:43]: You're developing a product, but at what cost.
Isa [0:27:46]: Right.
Isa [0:27:46]: Right?
Isa [0:27:47]: And so so it...
Isa [0:27:48]: And those tokens set up.
Michael [0:27:51]: I know we gotta wrap up here, but I wanna kinda close with this because you both talked about, like, measuring, getting the visibility, etcetera and and Justin, I I I I'd love to hear, you know, what you're seeing at of course here, but Justin is you're talking to customers, how does that evolve from measuring and and calculating that data to to then, helping the customers determine if the utilization worth it if the ROI is there?
Michael [0:28:15]: Because those there are some of the other popular headlines we're seeing, hey, that, you know, the time savings are there.
Michael [0:28:20]: But what do you do with those time savings you, you know, get more time to walk your dog or, like, you know, what one of the case movies.
Michael [0:28:25]: So how are you...
Michael [0:28:26]: How are how are we seeing that evolution?
Michael [0:28:28]: Because I think that can be a big value driver for procurement.
Justin [0:28:32]: And I mean, I...
Justin [0:28:33]: One of the things I was curious about is, like, do peep...
Justin [0:28:35]: There's the the ROI case or the business case for a a stakeholder around buying something new.
Justin [0:28:41]: Has that...
Justin [0:28:42]: Is the standard of what is required as part of that business case changed and shifted because I've seen in some of our and some of our customers where, like, the standard around what it takes to now buy something new with an ROI justification, even in the last couple months has shifted
Michael [0:28:56]: because ROI.
Michael [0:28:56]: And now it's ROI two.
Justin [0:28:58]: Right Yeah.
Justin [0:28:58]: Right.
Justin [0:28:59]: Because well, before it was, like, It's an Ai thing.
Justin [0:29:01]: Like, you told me to go by Ai stuff to test it.
Michael [0:29:04]: So the the justification was just it's Ai.
Justin [0:29:06]: Right.
Justin [0:29:06]: And now But it's
Michael [0:29:08]: not Ai was other stuff.
Justin [0:29:09]: Right.
Justin [0:29:09]: And now it's, like, even with the Ai stuff.
Justin [0:29:10]: It's like, okay.
Justin [0:29:11]: Well, what's the ROI?
Justin [0:29:12]: What do you...
Justin [0:29:13]: When do you...
Justin [0:29:13]: How are you expecting to see you know, growth in revenue, efficiency gains and being able to quantify that much more clearly, and we're seeing those questions being asked.
Justin [0:29:22]: I don't know if you're seeing, like, with this.
Isa [0:29:24]: So what, we implemented when I started, and I was told about this before I was higher as I was going through the process was that we wanted a review committee.
Isa [0:29:34]: And that review committee was said within the first year.
Isa [0:29:39]: I shared this before one of the other conference I went conferences I went to, and It was very interesting because people looked at me very strangely because they thought about it and other people couldn't figure out how to do this.
Isa [0:29:53]: And so none of us had an experience in this area.
Isa [0:29:56]: And we connected finance, legal, senior stakeholders It and procurement to identify how this will work for us.
Isa [0:30:06]: And so we come up with a review meeting every week, and intake, present your business case.
Isa [0:30:14]: Do you have a budget?
Isa [0:30:15]: Who's your stakeholder?
Isa [0:30:16]: And what is the purpose of this app?
Isa [0:30:19]: What what is your intent of use, what is it going to connect to?
Isa [0:30:23]: Data, privacy, you.
Isa [0:30:27]: And all this...
Isa [0:30:28]: Other very important factors around Aim info sec that needed to be addressed, single sign on elementary.
Isa [0:30:36]: But...
Isa [0:30:36]: Yes, and so we implemented it And at first, it just grew so big.
Isa [0:30:43]: There were so many people in this process.
Isa [0:30:46]: We streamlined it.
Isa [0:30:48]: And now we have a very stream process where a key person that is very knowledgeable reviews it and pulls in the different teams when they need further review to identify whether this is an app that we should consider or if he needs further review.
Isa [0:31:05]: And that's the process that we implemented to that course.
Isa [0:31:08]: I wish she has worked awesome.
Isa [0:31:10]: A lot of, stakeholders.
Isa [0:31:12]: They know now.
Isa [0:31:14]: This is the process.
Isa [0:31:15]: Do you want to do a proof of concept?
Isa [0:31:16]: You have to do this first.
Isa [0:31:18]: Do you look at the stack to see if we have a comparable product?
Isa [0:31:21]: You didn't find one there?
Isa [0:31:23]: Okay.
Isa [0:31:23]: You need to submit this paperwork?
Isa [0:31:25]: We go through the Nda, talking to the vendor, doing the POC, you do your testing for however long, No real data, please.
Isa [0:31:33]: And then if you decide to buy from among the vendors that you evaluate, then we work through that and follow.
Isa [0:31:41]: Follow through on the purchasing process.
Isa [0:31:43]: So the hat has made it different for us.
Isa [0:31:46]: I have never seen that model before.
Justin [0:31:49]: Yeah.
Justin [0:31:49]: It sounds it sounds like a good, like, system of controls in place to make sure you got the right people involved and and and asking the the the right questions.
Justin [0:31:58]: I think that one of the things that I'm seeing with a lot of the heavy Ai consumption is these tokens are being deployed against different use cases, whether it's an internal build or something externally and I think one of the things that I'm interested in seeing is how those tokens are gonna ultimately be able to get mapped to the actual, like, output and delivery of what that kind of body of work was tied to.
Justin [0:32:25]: Right?
Justin [0:32:25]: You have a engineer and cloud code.
Justin [0:32:27]: They're doing tokens...
Justin [0:32:28]: They're using their tokens to build something as part of this feature.
Justin [0:32:31]: There will be connectivity at some point when it says, like, this build and these tokens led to this feature that leads to this uplift and everything else in revenue or conversion rate or whatever.
Justin [0:32:43]: So I think that the...
Justin [0:32:44]: We're in the very, very early innings of being able to measure those things, but I know that there's lots of smart people trying to figure out how can we trace all the way from the builds and the when the tokens are being used and how they're being deployed out to the, like, the output around what the the the thing that we're trying to to actually see happen for our business.
Justin [0:33:03]: It's just hard to do and the state of the L and the kind of foundational models don't make it easy, but it will get easier in the time.