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Built for Good is for the community builders driving missions that matter. Host Kian Alavi shares real stories, hard-won lessons, and data that challenges assumptions, helping you move with more clarity and less guesswork. Each episode delivers actionable insights to accelerate decisions and make meaningful work less of a solo struggle.
Now… let’s build for good.
Built for Good is brought to you by Mazlo. Mazlo simplifies accounting, banking, compliance, and fundraising—so you can focus on your mission, not your back office.
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:21:11
Oliver
Leadership, and what came to my mind was earning the right. Having the courage. And when I say earning the right, I mean that you've paid your dues and your career. Yeah, you've earned the right to be interviewed for the thing to be considered for the thing. And then once you're hired for the thing, you earn the right to lead the people you lead every day.
00:00:21:11 - 00:00:24:05
Kian
That's right. And this is built for good.
00:00:24:08 - 00:00:47:05
Kian
This show is for community builders, the ones leading missions that matter. We're here to help you move with more clarity and less guesswork. Real stories, hard won lessons. Data that challenges assumptions and insights that accelerate decision making. One of my favorite sayings is if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.
00:00:47:05 - 00:01:11:02
Kian
Meaningful work does not have to mean going alone. Now let's build some good together. Today is a very special day on built for good. And here's why. I get to sit here and speak with somebody who I adore. A friend, a longtime mentor and guiding light. Oliver Hack Oliver Hack is currently the director of fiscal sponsorship at the Social Good Fund.
00:01:11:03 - 00:01:32:10
Kian
However, we know each other 16 years ish now, and the first time I met Oliver, he walked into my model C after school program. Immediately, I understood that this was a kind of a different person, if you will. So those who have run nonprofit programs, when a funder shows up. You're a little on edge. You're a little worried.
00:01:32:10 - 00:01:55:23
Kian
They're they're often not always. But to check the box and make sure that their funding is being deployed. But Oliver didn't do that. He showed up. He helped out. He served food, he played chess with the kids, and he stayed all afternoon. And then only later did he provide thoughtful, insightful feedback stuff that I could actually use and made our programing better.
00:01:55:23 - 00:02:18:21
Kian
And from that point forward, I thought, this is somebody I need to get to know, this is somebody going to help us do what we came to do. And we've been friends ever since. And that was way back when you were a program officer of D.C. wife. Since then, you've had stints in executive leadership and then have been a part of the team, early team that built up social good fund.
00:02:18:21 - 00:02:26:20
Kian
And so I have probably given you enough of an introduction. Which would you like to share anything about yourself as we get chairman here today?
00:02:26:22 - 00:02:41:19
Oliver
Well, I'll just say it's not every day you get to sit with someone who considers you to be a mentor when it's reciprocal. I consider you to be a mentor, guiding light and good friend as well. So the feeling is mutual.
00:02:41:20 - 00:02:42:02
Kian
Thanks.
00:02:42:07 - 00:03:04:08
Oliver
I guess it depends on what we're talking. Yeah, right. But, but but yeah, I remember well, walking into the after school program, I think it's one of those things, you know it when you see it. You feel it when you feel it, you know? And it was real at at the Vision Academy and.
00:03:04:09 - 00:03:25:08
Oliver
Just obvious the intention that was, was behind it all and how tied into the community it was and how, you know, how truly grassroots the effort was. And, you know, this is this is exactly what the city of San Francisco should be supporting these kinds of efforts, homegrown efforts by the community, for the community.
00:03:25:11 - 00:03:45:18
Kian
Appreciate that I was there. I don't know if I told you this, but I went by a few weeks ago or maybe a month ago now to their new location and new vans from the Thin Foundation and a wonderful staff of people I had never met before. Still, and some that have been there a long time, like Judy, still still rocking and still serving, you know, thousands of youth every year.
00:03:45:18 - 00:03:46:13
Kian
It's just insane.
00:03:46:13 - 00:04:17:04
Oliver
That's how it's supposed to be. It's supposed to get better after you. You know, I've been thinking a lot about that at social. Good fun these days. Like, not that I'm leaving, but but what happens after me? And what am I leaving behind? And and if I think I know something, how am I? How am I communicating that to to the team so that when and when the eventual my moving on happens, you know, I will have left something behind that people can build on.
00:04:17:04 - 00:04:31:19
Oliver
It's not supposed to be static. It's supposed to get better. It's definitely don't have all the answers. I've done the best I can, and part of that is getting great people who can then bring the best of themselves to it and, you know, build on that legacy.
00:04:31:20 - 00:04:59:16
Kian
You know, one of the things that you said a while ago and it really stuck with me was there's something special happening here. And you were referring to the team at Maslow and you talked about how they, you know, folks were adhering to each other and they were a body, a group of people that continued to put out, you know, incredible, not just intention, but building systems and putting out the, you know, value and driving results.
00:04:59:18 - 00:05:25:23
Kian
I want to talk about that a little bit, because you saw you've seen the inside of a lot of organizations. You've led many of them. And you know the difference between a team that's adhering and, and, and, and the difference between intention and processes and systems as they're reflecting about how do you ensure that all of the work that you do is processed and systematized so that the institution itself itself can whatever the institution?
00:05:26:00 - 00:05:37:18
Kian
I mean, this is a big problem in the nonprofit sector in general, right? Is, you know, institutionalized memory walking out the door, thoughts on all of that?
00:05:37:20 - 00:06:12:15
Oliver
You know, you've inspired me on LinkedIn over the last year or so. And, you know, I try and be really careful. I'm not always sure I have something worthy of saying. And on the occasion that I do, you know, and I think it's going to be helpful, I'll say it. And and as you know, one of the most recent things I posted was that I think the three most important roles for nonprofit leaders are when I'm like, loosely referring to the three P's now, I guess, which is know your financial position.
00:06:12:18 - 00:06:38:09
Oliver
And for any board member of a nonprofit here, listening like that's your number one job, your number one job, because things can get out of control quickly for a lot of different reasons, which may or may not include any kind of bad faith. So knowing your financial position, loving your purpose, and loving your people, and, you know, I don't mean just like I love my people.
00:06:38:09 - 00:07:05:23
Oliver
I mean actually loving your people. Right? People choose to be employed by you, you know, they people have other choices, hopefully. And they choose to come to work every day. And I've always thought that it is the employer's responsibility to, well, that employees come to work with energy. And it's your job as leaders to focus that energy on the task at hand.
00:07:05:23 - 00:07:50:21
Oliver
And what happens when you don't focus that energy is that oftentimes that energy gets turned against the organization itself. So, you know, many of us have been in organizations where we spend too much time talking about each other or what's wrong and not focusing on the work. So, that's always been sort of a goal of mine, especially at Social Good Fund, which is a place that I've really been able to come and lead and grow, is to create a culture where people feel valued, where people are actually valued, where where we've tried as hard as possible that there is no them here.
00:07:50:21 - 00:08:19:11
Oliver
It's us, you know, hierarchy, it turns out as necessary when you when you reach a certain size, even if you don't want it. Yeah. People expect it. And to get stuff done, you kind of have to have it sometimes. Yeah. But I feel like we try hard to minimize the feeling of an us and them leaders and, you know, followers or the workers or whatever.
00:08:19:11 - 00:08:41:13
Oliver
Everyone I try and hire leaders in, in all aspects. There is no one at Social Good Fund who has an unimportant job. And I feel like and this, this like I say this out loud, so I hear it. If I'm doing my job well, I have a hard job. And that goes for every single person on my staff.
00:08:41:13 - 00:09:01:09
Oliver
And probably probably that goes for every business, you know, whether you're bagging groceries, you know, doing it with right intention and expressing the values of of the company you work for. It, it it probably is hard in some way. Yeah.
00:09:01:11 - 00:09:29:01
Kian
You have incredible folks. Haven't met everyone on your team, but everyone does to me feel like they are enabled and are leading their work, which is truly a testament to the culture, position, purpose and people. Right? We're going through a moment right now where we're seeing a lot of nonprofits up against the fence financially, and we're seeing the kind of results of a federal funding crash.
00:09:29:05 - 00:09:50:06
Kian
Right. We're seeing the results of maybe funders not moving fast enough, or maybe they're moving fast enough and they're just not just they just can't deploy as much capital as they as they as folks need. Talk about what you are seeing or experiencing in the space or your thoughts on that.
00:09:50:08 - 00:10:36:17
Oliver
I think it's always been hard. I feel like nonprofits have always had their backs up against the wall as it relates to sustainable fundraising. You know, I prefer to to talk about it in a, in a broader sense for a nonprofits like what's your business model? Right? You know, nonprofits tend to spend a lot of time on strategic plans, which speak about the, the, the what and how of what of what they're going to do, you know, serve X number of people move, move our organization in this direction or that direction.
00:10:36:18 - 00:11:07:03
Oliver
Try and have an impact here or there. And what seems to be missing for me is like a business plan to make that possible. And what I encounter in my work all the time, I'm sort of the front door. My team of social good fund. So people submit applications, we review them, we meet people. We ultimately decide if if someone's going to become a project or not.
00:11:07:05 - 00:11:32:13
Oliver
So many of the people that I encounter have woken up in the morning with, with, with inspiration in the heart, what I call the charitable impulse is strong in them. It's driving them to do something, to submit an application to a fiscal sponsor. It's amazing. Yeah, they want to make a change in the world. They are not, I don't think in most cases, waking up in the morning saying, I want to run a business.
00:11:32:15 - 00:12:06:18
Oliver
And the purpose of this business is to make this change right. The business part, often in the nonprofit sector comes second. Yes. Which to me is a really interesting thing because the entrepreneurs in the floor profit sense that I know they could sell anything, they get excited and are passionate about creating value, creating a successful enterprise. Right? Making money is the general measure of that.
00:12:06:19 - 00:12:38:19
Oliver
Yeah, but they could kind of sell anything. And for nonprofit folks, it's like, this is my thing, whether it's it's housing unhoused or providing services to whatever population. That's my that's my passion. Right? Providing that service, making that change. And it's like, oh yeah, I also like I need to run a business. And the challenge of nonprofits is we have what I would call an irrational revenue sort of business model.
00:12:38:22 - 00:12:39:14
Oliver
Right.
00:12:39:15 - 00:12:41:23
Kian
Say that again, right. On a rational 100%.
00:12:42:00 - 00:12:47:17
Oliver
Yeah. So like in a for profit business, you sell something, people want it, they buy it. Right? Right.
00:12:47:18 - 00:12:50:02
Kian
And you take the money, you go do what you need to do with it.
00:12:50:03 - 00:13:11:01
Oliver
Right. And I think you recently had a post on LinkedIn that was was pointing out the D linkage of of the people who fund the work and the people who benefit from the work there is there. Those are different things. That's right. Whereas in for profit, generally speaking, like I'm the customer, right? I'm giving you my money. I get the.
00:13:11:01 - 00:13:11:20
Kian
Thing, the benefit.
00:13:11:21 - 00:13:55:11
Oliver
Right? That's right. And in profit, it's generally not always I mean, non-profits is a very, very big thing, but in, you know, the world that I'm used to, those things are decoupled. And it's really, really hard to plan around something like that. Right. And, you know, if we were speaking more about fiscal sponsorship, it's also really, really hard to plan and to make it easier to plan almost always necessitates, putting in place measures that can like projects that we bring on have to bring in a certain amount of money or whatever, whatever that measure is, which can end up being a barrier, right?
00:13:55:13 - 00:14:25:20
Oliver
And does not necessarily equal success. If success means change in from x from this place to that place, you know the purpose of that nonprofit, right? So yeah, it's a very, very challenging environment. Most people start not realizing that I'm about to run a business, and if they figure that out, they'll figure out pretty quickly that, oh, I'm running a business with an irrational revenue model, right?
00:14:25:21 - 00:14:52:06
Kian
Which makes it incredibly hard. It's like I often say it's the most difficult economic model to run because you have all of this, this like mixture of revenue. They come with different restrictions and tensions, desires by the funding and the funders. And then you have the pure need that's changing rapidly, and you have to get these things to match up, and not just because it's the right thing to do, but compliance wise.
00:14:52:07 - 00:15:19:03
Kian
If that $1 is meant to do this one thing and you're doing ten different things, you have to make sure that happens. Because if you don't, then you're out of compliance. You may not maintain your nonprofit status. So heart lead, smart people jumping into do something and then jumping into the hardest economic model to to run and to build, often from scratch with a bajillion different systems trying to sort it out.
00:15:19:07 - 00:15:35:03
Oliver
Arguably one of the reasons why I think Vision Academy, which started as an idea and became what it became and is still thriving today, benefited and.
00:15:35:05 - 00:16:05:19
Oliver
In arguably succeeded because you personally had a business background, you know, you really understood the model, the numbers, sorry. And you were able to figure out the model pretty quickly. And you also happen to be a connector, you know, and you're highly relational. And that's that's absolutely critical for for nonprofits. But I think a lot of it is because you, you brought a business mind to it.
00:16:05:20 - 00:16:18:19
Oliver
And a lot of folks haven't been trained that way, or they're not naturally inclined that way. And it's, it's a it's a real challenge. Yeah. It's a real challenge.
00:16:18:21 - 00:16:30:08
Kian
We could spend a lot of time on the financial position, know your financial position. And I wonder if there is any.
00:16:30:10 - 00:16:55:12
Kian
You've served on boards. You have seen many advisory boards. You've been in and out of different non-profits for decades now. What are the things that create a good board or a good board member, if you will? There's a lot of folks on this that should be listening hopefully. And I courage everybody go serve on a board if you have the time and the and the drive to serve.
00:16:55:12 - 00:17:01:16
Kian
But like what is what makes a good board or a good board member?
00:17:01:18 - 00:17:46:09
Oliver
So I have been on a few boards. I, I'm not going to say that, that I've, that, that I could call myself a having been a great board member. I think in certain ways I have done like I've, really given and in other ways I've, I've probably fallen short. I think this this gets to, again, one of the real challenges of the nonprofit sector that that the, the governing role, the ultimate responsible party of a nonprofit, are volunteers who may or may not themselves have any expertise in the overall management of a nonprofit.
00:17:46:11 - 00:18:22:07
Oliver
You know, lots of nonprofit executives, they they make up matrices where they're like, okay, I need a legal person, I need an insurance person. I need someone who's got. But you might find that. But those folks may or may not have any, like, actual practical experience with nonprofits themselves. Most often, especially community based nonprofits, the board members are like stakeholders or former stakeholders or beneficiaries of those programs who bring a passion to it, which can be enough.
00:18:22:09 - 00:18:26:21
Oliver
But, but.
00:18:26:23 - 00:18:57:10
Oliver
The most important role, being a bunch of volunteers is, I think, really, really problematic. And and because I think we can edit this. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to make this other point from the other question. I'm just remembering it now, which is the the nonprofit revenue model. And you, you making mention of whether or not institutional funders are deploying resources fast enough in this in this really, really challenging time.
00:18:57:10 - 00:19:18:04
Oliver
It's always a challenging time for for nonprofits. It's an especially challenging time right now because of the overall economy. And it's an especially, especially challenging time because there are certain elements of of our federal government that that that are, frankly, attacking the nonprofit sector.
00:19:18:06 - 00:19:19:16
Kian
Or backing away from supporting.
00:19:19:20 - 00:19:25:05
Oliver
Or backing away from supporting it, which is is is really challenging and.
00:19:25:07 - 00:19:39:22
Kian
Disheartening, given that the nonprofit sector has been there for decades as a partner. That has been the outsourced support of the federal government in a capitalist system to support folks who have needs. So why now? Well, please don't.
00:19:39:23 - 00:19:54:01
Oliver
I mean, section 500 1C3 of the IRS tax code, you know, calls out that one of the allowable functions is to replace or or augment the functions of government. Right. Which is like, who else is going to do it? Yeah.
00:19:54:03 - 00:20:04:11
Kian
12 million workers across the country, 2 million nonprofits, 85% of Americans served every year. By a nonprofit, I mean, it's such a huge, important part of our country's success. Keep going.
00:20:04:12 - 00:20:26:08
Oliver
So last night, I was thinking about if I if I could wave the magic wand and make one big change to institutional giving. Yeah. What would I do? And I landed on this last night, and I'm not I don't know that this is the the best idea, but I, I think it's worthy of really like strong consideration. Yeah.
00:20:26:10 - 00:20:52:23
Oliver
So I think generally speaking, nonprofits are by nature resilient, often because of the people who are working in them because, like, you know, I've been in nonprofits where I haven't gotten a raise each year and I keep giving blood because I bring because I believe in. That's right. Right. And it's the work feels important. That's right. That's my charitable impulse.
00:20:53:00 - 00:21:09:14
Oliver
That's right. So I don't want to say that nonprofits aren't resilient, but we don't have a lot of wiggle room, and especially financially. So what would I do? I would say that.
00:21:09:16 - 00:21:48:06
Oliver
Institutional funders need to fund nonprofit endowments. They need to. So like, pick your nonprofit, seed an endowment fund, let's say with $200,000, you know, half $1 million, and let that money grow and let that nonprofit use interest income because we've had high interest rates. Yeah, right. So let nonprofits use that, that interest income to do R&D, right, to hire the person when your budget is struggling.
00:21:48:06 - 00:22:11:14
Oliver
Because often, often what we do is we start subtracting from our. That's right. And what I think we need to do is double down in that moment. And if we had nonprofits with endowments that they really could make that important strategic decision while our budgets really tight, we're like, right on the line or we're in the red this year.
00:22:11:15 - 00:22:30:21
Oliver
Like, what do we need to do, not lay off people? Right. Right. That you've invested all this time? I'm really thinking of, like, social good fund, for example. Like my every single one of my employees is precious. They are precious resources. And especially something like fiscal sponsorship, where you don't know how to do it unless you've been doing it.
00:22:30:21 - 00:22:59:05
Oliver
That's right. And that's a lot of investment in those people. You know, they're to allow their learning curve to happen until they're operating really optimally. So rather than in a financial crunch looking to like let go or cut cost, you know, sometimes we need to double down and social good fund. You know, we have we have healthy reserves and good interest income.
00:22:59:07 - 00:23:34:01
Oliver
But that that really allows us the flexibility in a difficult moment to say we need more now, not less. We need to rev up the rev up the engine here, not slow it down. Right. Right. Most non-profits do not have the flexibility. That's right. And and you know, you as an executive director, you know, and I've seen this being a board member to, when you get into that financial crunch, your executive is now focusing her entire workday right?
00:23:34:02 - 00:23:58:16
Oliver
On chasing money. Yep. Right. To to fill the hole. That's right. Right. Rather than saying, okay, board, we have the endowment. Like, is now the time to dip into this reserve, you know, to double down on ourselves, to get us to that next place. We generally don't have that flexibility. So my call to all the institutional funders right now who are thinking about how do we do this differently?
00:23:58:18 - 00:24:24:15
Oliver
Seed. Give up some of your money, right? Right. Yeah. Spend more than the minimum required. Yeah. Right. To to this. This will ensure long term sustainability. Right. And and you can keep your idea that you only fund for x number of years or one year or two years or three years. Right. Or no one knows how long the commitment will be from you.
00:24:24:16 - 00:24:35:08
Oliver
Like we find out every year. It's a mystery, you know? Again, irrational. You don't know if the customer you know is going to come and pay or not. Right. Right. And there's no way to predict it.
00:24:35:08 - 00:24:35:23
Kian
That's right.
00:24:36:00 - 00:25:00:20
Oliver
So if you want to ensure some stability, start seating seeding these funds. Right. Give like, you know, imagine a vision Academy had $250,000. And the the interest off of that each year. You know would be I don't know what that would be, but I mean, several thousands of dollars that could be used to reinvest in the organization and help you get through the moment.
00:25:00:21 - 00:25:26:08
Kian
Well, think about what's going on right now. Organizations are reeling financially, and so that the executive directors hunting for funds, trying to fill the hole. But what's actually occurring in our communities is that people are hurting more than they ever have. So do you want that executive director hunting for funds for working with the team, problem solving, pivoting, adjusting and making sure folks are served and cared for.
00:25:26:09 - 00:25:47:11
Kian
So it's it's it's it's a really good idea. I don't know if folks will will will deal with it. I have gotten blasted a little bit for saying we're just parking way too much money in the market that were intended for charitable purposes, but are now just, you know, sitting there and driving fees for financial advisors when really that money needs to get out as fast as possible.
00:25:47:13 - 00:25:59:14
Kian
If you could get that money out and put it into an endowment, maybe it's still in the market, but it's serving the nonprofit. Exactly. And you're enabling and shifting power and control to the community at the grassroot.
00:25:59:14 - 00:26:04:05
Oliver
And I'm not coming begging to you. That's right. You know, for for to get me to tomorrow.
00:26:04:06 - 00:26:17:18
Kian
That's right. And you don't have to worry about giving money in a political or whatever. Environments change and you're freaked out about what that might look like for you. You've deployed the capital. The capital is there. The community is doing the best they can do with it. And you can just do more. Yeah.
00:26:17:19 - 00:26:24:10
Oliver
Yeah. To get back to your question about, you know, board members, this is going to this is going to sound funny.
00:26:24:11 - 00:26:50:21
Kian
No, no, but this is important because what we started with, this is our second model to run, right. Because the person who's benefiting is different than the customer who's paying. And then we go on to it's a the responsible body is a volunteer driven body, not just responsible, fiduciary responsible. I mean, if stuff goes haywire, it's the board that at the end of the line is responsible.
00:26:50:23 - 00:27:20:16
Kian
And we try to get the right people in the right spots. But we are there's just a dearth of folks who've actually run a nonprofit to advise the leadership team and to advise the staff and to support transfer of knowledge that is earned through hard times from the board level. And then with the void of that, we often see people coming in with, you know, return on investment thinking and for profit thinking, which is not bad or wrong.
00:27:20:17 - 00:27:36:15
Kian
But when you have a totally different economic model, it doesn't always translate. And then you have this advice that leaks out like you got to. You got to drive revenue. You got to build businesses in your nonprofit and stuff. You're like, wait a minute. You know, we're here to do this thing and make progress on this serious problem.
00:27:36:15 - 00:27:41:22
Kian
And now you're telling us that we have to start a clothing and merchandise line, you know?
00:27:42:00 - 00:27:47:01
Oliver
Yeah. I mean, you know, this because, I don't know, a year or so ago.
00:27:47:02 - 00:27:47:07
Kian
Sorry.
00:27:47:08 - 00:28:00:22
Oliver
Was that a rant? But a year or so ago, you you told me that there was 1 or 2 organizations asking you to be on the board, and my first response was, don't do it right. And the reason why I said that.
00:28:01:00 - 00:28:01:17
Kian
I still did it, but.
00:28:01:17 - 00:28:08:01
Oliver
Yes, you still did it. Yeah. Unsurprisingly.
00:28:08:03 - 00:28:32:20
Oliver
The reason why I said that was because I know that you have a more than full time job, and I know that you have a young family. That's right. And I know from having been on a board and myself having had some, you know, having felt like I underperformed and I had some regrets about it. It's a job.
00:28:32:22 - 00:28:59:19
Oliver
It's not show up to a board meeting. That's right. Once a month. That's right. That does not actually matter. What matters is what happens between the meetings. That's right. And it's a job. And, you know, it's it's more than it's a part time job. Let me call it. Yeah, but it requires the same focus and attention and intention that you would bring to your day job.
00:28:59:19 - 00:29:23:04
Oliver
And so I people ask me all the time about, you know, should I join this board? And I'm like, no, you should not unless you have a passion for the thing you really like your executive director. The other board members bring complimentary skills to the thing and are demonstrating a commitment to the organization beyond showing up at the meetings.
00:29:23:04 - 00:29:47:00
Oliver
Like, and, you know, it's it's a hard thing. You know, like the concept of, of, of our nonprofit sector is community coming together to solve community issues. And over the years, you know, we've seen a professionalization of nonprofits. And.
00:29:47:02 - 00:29:57:09
Oliver
It's it's likely that on a board, you know, you could have people who have really almost no connection to the services that that nonprofit provides at all. Right. Right.
00:29:57:10 - 00:30:04:00
Kian
So but is connected through the network of the nonprofit board and therefore. Sure. Let's try. Right.
00:30:04:01 - 00:30:15:16
Oliver
Yeah. So I think often boards are more of a burden to an executive director than they are a help. And.
00:30:15:18 - 00:30:16:13
Oliver
But I.
00:30:16:16 - 00:30:22:08
Kian
Think because there's a lot of education that you have to send uphill to the board. Right. Yes.
00:30:22:10 - 00:30:26:19
Oliver
Yeah. And even executives themselves, it's like they have a full time job already.
00:30:26:20 - 00:30:28:14
Kian
And then they have to have another job managing the.
00:30:28:14 - 00:30:33:08
Oliver
Board, managing the board, you know, getting board members to show up or whatever. You know.
00:30:33:09 - 00:30:42:08
Kian
That's another problem with volunteer boards is they're not as present as because they're volunteer. Yeah. Unfortunately, at the smaller scale nonprofits.
00:30:42:10 - 00:30:58:12
Oliver
Yeah. And, and, and executives have to play this delicate game with them. You know, an executive can, without bad faith, run an organization off the financial cliff. They can. Yeah. They can. It can happen.
00:30:58:12 - 00:30:59:14
Kian
It's happening right now.
00:30:59:15 - 00:31:03:13
Oliver
It happens. It's happening right now. It's a.
00:31:03:13 - 00:31:07:06
Kian
Very blindsided by the the the pullback in federal funding.
00:31:07:07 - 00:31:19:15
Oliver
I mean that's that's one aspect of it. You know, not really having a clear understanding of your financial position, not really understanding what's projected and what's real revenue, not.
00:31:19:16 - 00:31:22:15
Kian
Undercounting what you can spend versus what you have.
00:31:22:21 - 00:31:48:15
Oliver
All of it. All of it. And, you know, you might have an executive director who's doing just a phenomenal job with her staff, doing a phenomenal job with community relations, doing a phenomenal job taking care of the of the physical plant, if there is one. Yeah, the capital asset and has no real expertise, clue or way of expressing that.
00:31:48:15 - 00:32:13:08
Oliver
I don't really understand where I'm at. Yeah. You know, I was on a board with the executive director, said, you know, I kind of feel like I'm lacking confidence here. And, you know, like part of our response was, go find a mentor, you know, and, and I think this person was like, rightly like, wait, I have a full time job, where am I going to go find a mentor, you know, around this stuff?
00:32:13:09 - 00:32:19:16
Oliver
Yeah. But, you know, I think it gets back to.
00:32:19:18 - 00:32:42:02
Oliver
What a board can do. A board can prioritize budget line items like training and development, you know, can can prioritize the learning of the staff. But but again, in, in lean financial times, that's one of the first things to go.
00:32:42:02 - 00:33:16:08
Kian
Yeah PD always. Yeah that's right. If you if you're lucky enough to have PD it's going to go right. Yeah I wonder. Thinking about boards and whatnot I think what an important thing here is like to have a learning mindset right when you come into a board, but from the Ed side or from the organization side, to be able to really on board a board member in a manner that really explains the functions of the organization, how these functions get funded, what are the hard, what is the good?
00:33:16:08 - 00:33:30:02
Kian
What is the easy, you know, all that kind of stuff. Often you're just getting thrown in and you're trying to move as fast as you can to learn. And that's not the Ed's fault. They're doing their best as well and just holding on. Yeah, yeah.
00:33:30:02 - 00:33:59:20
Oliver
And and you know what? I'll I've had friends join boards who really don't have a nonprofit background. And, you know, I'll say just just like, be mindful like this executive director that is recruiting you. If that person were to leave, that's your problem now. That's right. Right. And, like, are you ready for that problem? And you can't just say it's not my job because it is actually specifically your job.
00:33:59:22 - 00:34:01:05
Oliver
You can't just walk away.
00:34:01:05 - 00:34:01:13
Kian
From it.
00:34:01:14 - 00:34:27:07
Oliver
That's right. Yeah. And like, just just really, honestly, like, I, I have struggled on boards before. You know, I have struggled to show up in the way that was needed in the, in the moment that it was needed, just because my life needed attention. You know, it's it's it. I think it really needs to be viewed as a part time job.
00:34:27:07 - 00:34:46:02
Oliver
You are taking on a part time job. Yeah. Not just volunteering, showing up and handing out food. Right. You're like, doing work in a professional setting that has, you know, high stakes for for whatever that that organization does.
00:34:46:03 - 00:35:15:13
Kian
Yeah. It just reminds me of I'm serving on a board where there's an executive transition underway. And about a month ago, it kind of happened suddenly, if you will, that this transition was starting. And three of us on the executive committee spent all weekend working on preparing the board and the staff and doing the work that we had to do to make sure that we nailed down the plan and enabled the board to participate and get in a lot of new board members.
00:35:15:13 - 00:35:39:04
Kian
And I didn't see my family or kids from Friday night to Monday morning, more or less because I was heads down, communicating, drafting, working with folks. And there's 15 ish jobs that this nonprofit serves in our community, and it's an incredible nonprofit that deserves to continue onward. And the executive deserves to to to transition and all of the things in its life.
00:35:39:05 - 00:35:42:04
Kian
But you do have to be prepared to give some time and give some blood.
00:35:42:05 - 00:35:59:03
Oliver
Yeah. And and what can happen, especially with a leadership transition and executive leadership, your your organization can be easily in a five year tailspin if you get it wrong. Yeah. You know, I.
00:35:59:05 - 00:36:01:05
Kian
Totally at risk or for shutting down.
00:36:01:06 - 00:36:29:06
Oliver
Or totally at risk for for shuddering. Yeah. For sure. We've seen it. I mean, you see it every day. You know, my feed feeds me nonprofit stuff, so I like, see all the time, you know, nonprofits shutting down, you know, whatever. And maybe that's not the worst thing in the world. I mean, most businesses shut down. I think some, some huge number of for profits fail.
00:36:29:07 - 00:37:02:07
Oliver
Yeah, I would guess, you know, I would say we probably don't have the same kind of data in the nonprofit sector, only because people are more likely to just keep volunteering. Yeah, just keep giving blood. Yeah. But a a a, you know, and it's kind of a big topic, but a board might have an executive that it's not totally happy with, and maybe it knows in its gut the board that this is the wrong person.
00:37:02:07 - 00:37:06:08
Oliver
And we need to make a change. Right.
00:37:06:10 - 00:37:31:03
Oliver
If you don't get that right, you like the tailspin can be years. That's right. Years. Right. And that is going to be a board's responsibility for years until until it gets, you know, the dust settles on that and hiring from from external from the organization, from your leadership is notoriously challenging.
00:37:31:09 - 00:37:38:00
Kian
And is often the case by default because you don't have enough resources to to develop folks that are next in line.
00:37:38:01 - 00:38:01:02
Oliver
That's right. And you haven't hired for it. That's, you know, it's it's why I like to think that we try and hire leaders, you know, people with with a little bit of ambition. I mean, that in of itself is a challenge to have a group of people who are highly engaged in and bought in, you know, as a leadership group, you have to be really like, okay, with that.
00:38:01:03 - 00:38:15:09
Oliver
Really smart people are going to come at you with with their critical thinking. That's right. And, you know, you have to be sensitive enough, emotionally intelligent enough.
00:38:15:11 - 00:38:20:10
Oliver
Courageous enough.
00:38:20:11 - 00:38:39:16
Oliver
You know, I said this to recently that I was thinking about leadership and what came to my mind was earning the right, having the courage. And when I say earning the right, I mean that you've paid your dues in your career. Yeah. You've earned the right to be interviewed for the thing to be considered for the thing.
00:38:39:17 - 00:38:46:04
Oliver
And then once you're hired for the thing, you earn the right to lead the people you lead every day.
00:38:46:05 - 00:38:46:19
Kian
That's right.
00:38:46:19 - 00:39:18:06
Oliver
And then having the courage is. This stuff is hard, man. It is really, really hard. Yeah. It turns out that, like, I'm a pretty sensitive person myself. Like, I don't love to be criticized, you know? And who does? Who does? I mean, some people are thicker skinned than others, you know, maybe not quite as neurotic or whatever it is, but, you know, earning the right, having the courage because you have to be courageous.
00:39:18:07 - 00:39:58:06
Oliver
Yeah. At the end of the day, nonprofit for profit, your job is to run a viable business. And that is inevitably going to mean hard choices. And when you're doing it in a highly regulated environment like a nonprofit, the pressures come from everywhere. And when it comes internally from your own staff, you know, my hope is that that it's always that the what we get back from our staff is what I hope that they feel from us, which is, you know, a, a, a caring for them and a stewardship for them.
00:39:58:06 - 00:40:05:23
Oliver
And now I'm just talking about our stated values of integrity, stewardship and care.
00:40:06:01 - 00:40:23:03
Oliver
I hope we get that in return. I hope we've earned that from our staff that that they can be critical, that we want them to have a voice, but they but they do it with the same kind of values, you know, because it is not that my staff does this, but I've been in environments where it's so easy to talk about them.
00:40:23:04 - 00:40:45:04
Oliver
That's right. You know, and it's like, there's no them. Here we are. You we're just the ones who started this thing and, you know, are trying to push us forward. Like we're like, we're you. Yeah. But it is not easy at all. It is. I mean, you know, this being, you know, leading is is very, very difficult.
00:40:45:08 - 00:41:11:04
Kian
Also in a purposeful environment. It's one for profit is a purposeful environment to and I get that. But what I'm driving at here is when you're working on a problem in, on your street, in your community, in your neighborhood, when you're invested, it's personal. Yeah. And when you're a group of people doing that and you're showing up, there is going to be friction just the way it happens.
00:41:11:04 - 00:41:35:12
Kian
And it's hard not to take that friction personally as well. The best non-profits, they don't hide that. They don't say leave who you are elsewhere or at the door, but the folks that are in the room trust each other. And so they know that if an idea is being critiqued and that idea belongs to somebody, that person is not being critiqued and that they're all invested in.
00:41:35:12 - 00:42:00:21
Kian
Coach John Wooden is a big proponent of this, and I was a big fan of his and still am. Is look for the best idea support the best idea not be, you know, only focused on your idea winning. I'm not saying it the right way, but when you see high performing groups of people, especially purpose driven in the nonprofit space, it's because they're not taking everything personally and they know how to let things go.
00:42:00:22 - 00:42:23:18
Kian
All so there's a there's a really important thing about learning to heal together, rupture and repair. And coming back and saying that was really hard, and I'm sorry about how I was experienced or how I was heard, or this is how I heard you. And I know we're working on the same thing, and this is just you just don't check out of these environments.
00:42:23:18 - 00:42:27:09
Kian
Your heart's there, so people really have to come back together.
00:42:27:11 - 00:42:52:16
Oliver
I had to remind myself of the exact quote because I didn't want to mangle it, but I just finished reading Miles Davis autobiography, and he says, play beyond what is there and above where you think you can. And I think that's like like when I read that, I was like, oh, you know, like, yeah, like exactly like that's what I would, would say to my daughters.
00:42:52:16 - 00:43:06:17
Oliver
That's what I would say, you know, like organizationally, you know, it's like like I was thinking about this this morning that like, where is innovation in the nonprofit.
00:43:06:17 - 00:43:08:11
Kian
Sector, right. Like.
00:43:08:12 - 00:43:41:02
Oliver
It is rare that I see innovation in the nonprofit sector. I'm, I have been seeing the last few years some innovation around technology to support the nonprofit sector and things like, oh, I don't know, Maslow appreciate you and and some other things that are bubbling out there. But in terms of like service provision or doing the work, like show me an innovation, you know, and I'm, I mean, I'm sure there are because there are just so many amazing smart people out there doing things, creative things in ways that I've never heard of.
00:43:41:03 - 00:44:08:20
Oliver
And, you know, and my, my world is is what it is. But in my experience, I don't see it a lot. And I wonder if it's because we don't have Miles's mindset. You know, play go beyond what's there and beyond what you think you can do. That's right. You know, in in order to push yourself, you know, it's become like a little bit of a North Star for me.
00:44:09:00 - 00:44:39:07
Oliver
And I would say, you know, in certain ways that that part of the success of Social Good Fund has has been the mindset of our founder and CEO, who's who's a real entrepreneur in a nonprofit sense, like, not something you see very often. And I think, you know, not to toot my own horn or anything, but like if there's innovation here, it's it's the constant exploration of how do we do this better?
00:44:39:09 - 00:44:39:15
Kian
Yeah.
00:44:39:17 - 00:45:06:12
Oliver
And and what else should we be doing? You know, there are a great TEDx talk, and I'm going to forget who it is right now. A scholar on leadership who said, you know, there are these things that all great leaders do, and one of them is how far? How far down the line are you looking for the next thing around, what corners are, and where are you getting your information from?
00:45:06:13 - 00:45:26:05
Oliver
You know, I think and I think you're really good at that. You know, you're, you know, one of the inspirational, like, things that I get from you and why I consider you also a mentor is because you're a learner like you. I mean, I don't know what the stack of books next on your bed stand looks like, but I can imagine what it looks like.
00:45:26:08 - 00:45:55:10
Oliver
You know, you're always trying to feed yourself. You know, you're not making any assumptions that you're a finished product at all. And you're you're relentlessly curious, you know, and I think the great businesses, the great nonprofits have leadership like that, you know, really looking beyond what we're doing right now to what might be possible. How do we extend our mission into the world in different ways at Social Good Fund?
00:45:55:11 - 00:46:14:16
Oliver
I say this all the time. Our mission is not fiscal sponsorship, right? That is a tool through which we manifest our mission in the world. But it's not the only thing we, we, we do or should be doing. We should constantly be looking for that next way to extend our mission into the world.
00:46:14:17 - 00:46:20:09
Kian
Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you all. Been so awesome to have you, man. Thanks. Yeah, yeah.