How to Build A Customer-Centric Brand that Provides Actual Value

Show Notes

In this episode of the Tales from the PROS, I talk with David Brier, Google’s #1 ranked rebranding expert. He has four decades of branding expertise working with companies of all sizes — from startups to global enterprises. He is also a keynote speaker and the bestselling author of his #1 Amazon book called “BRAND INTERVENTION.” 

David has won over 330 international design awards and been named the Presidential Ambassador for Global Entrepreneurship. He has also received recognition from some of the world’s top names in the business, such as Daymond John from Shark Tank and Grant Cardone. He is nicknamed the “Brandfather.”

In this episode, David shares some crucial insights on branding and marketing. I hope you enjoy it!

Don’t Miss:

1. David’s experience with his first client - 09:15

2. Advice to business owners and leaders on branding - 17:32

3. What is brand storytelling and how powerful it is in the branding world - 30:44

 

Listen and Subscribe on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tales-from-the-pros/id1371067192

 

Questions Asked:

1. Can you tell us a little bit about the story of how you got to where you are today?

2. In your experience, what are some of the branding problems you see businesses of all sizes face?

3. When you are consulting with small businesses, startups, and innovators, what are some of the most important pieces of advice you give them to create a brand and have an emotional connection with their customers?

4. How do you redefine and improve a company’s current brand problem and identify if they even have a brand?

5. In your eyes, what is brand storytelling, and how powerful is it to be included in a brand and marketing strategy?

6. What is the future of branding in our global economy?

 

Follow David Brier

https://twitter.com/davidbrier

https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/davidbrier

 

Follow Me and Subscribe:

https://linktr.ee/mgeorgiou22

What is Tales From The PROS?

Tales from the PROS is hosted by Michael Georgiou, Co-Founder, and Eric Lawrence, Director of Growth at Imaginovation, an award-winning app and software development company. Each episode dives into honest, unscripted conversations, hard-earned lessons, and educational insight into how to help bridge the gap between technology and people.

If you’re a founder, exec, or innovator trying to navigate the tech world without getting burned, this podcast is your no-BS roadmap. Through real talk, personal stories, and insights from the front lines, you’ll pick up smarter ways to build software, steer clear of common mistakes, and choose the right partners in a crowded, often confusing space.

Whether you’re scaling a startup, driving digital change at a larger company, or just love keeping up with tech innovation, Tales from the PROS brings you straight-shooting advice and inspiration without the fluff.

David Brier: 00:00

Language as everybody has been talking about for 40, 50, 60 years.

Michael Georgiou: 00:04

I see.

David Brier: 00:04

How does that respect your disruption? How does that let the world know, oh, by the way, we're introducing something new. You don't do that by using the language of the old. So I mean so that's so that's one with regard to language. The other is really being way too close proximity to to its own.

Michael Georgiou: 00:23

This is tales from the pros, where business leaders and influencers share their stories of inspiration, struggles, and successes. And I'm your host, Michael Georgiou. David, how's it going, man?

David Brier: 00:42

Priceless, man. Priceless.

Michael Georgiou: 00:44

Pumped? You pumped?

David Brier: 00:45

I am freaking pumped. I'm ready. I'm ready.

Michael Georgiou: 00:50

I I I was very excited for this for this interview, and and, I know a lot of people are as well. I know you have a quite a few nicknames out there, but we'll talk about that in a few minutes. But, essentially, everyone, I I have an amazing guest with me here today. His name is David Brier. I pronounced that correctly.

Michael Georgiou: 01:08

Right?

David Brier: 01:08

You totally pronounced that correctly. I was I was holding my breath for for a nanosecond going because I only because

Michael Georgiou: 01:16

David Brier.

David Brier: 01:17

There was a there was act actually, there was a guy it was a friend. A friend I had known for 8 months. And then then we jump on the podcast, and he goes, and David Brier. And I'm like Yeah. No.

David Brier: 01:32

No. No. It was worse. Brier. I'm like Yeah.

David Brier: 01:36

Dude, when did I become French? Come on.

Michael Georgiou: 01:39

You just you can you can imagine my last name. I'm Georgio. I hate Georgiano. I don't know where the heck the n came from. Georgi u, but yeah.

David Brier: 01:48

It's You you you've you've well, you've you've exceeded the Americans' tolerance for for vowel for vowels. I mean, that's the thing. You you know, that's like absolutely. Georgia, you should you should just I mean, you you you should have a lot of fun with that. I would have a ball with that.

David Brier: 02:05

I would like I would know, you know, so how do we you know, I mean, it's like how how do you just make it absolutely insane? You know? What are the you should probably you should probably do a video just so it's like, hi, Michael. Mhmm. You know, it's like, whatever the I mean, just literally have a video just of that.

Michael Georgiou: 02:25

I know. Yeah. It's it's crazy. But I'm gonna see if I can, try to, meet your expectations with this introduction. Okay?

Michael Georgiou: 02:33

So let's let's see how it goes. But, everyone, I have I have David Briar here with me, an amazing guest. I'm I'm blessed and honored to have him on the show on Tales From the Pros. I'm your host, Michael Georgiou, and cofounder of Imagine Ovation. So David is, here with me today, and he's, actually a native New Yorker, and Google's number one ranked rebranding expert.

Michael Georgiou: 02:55

He has 4 decades of branding expertise working with companies of all sizes all around the world, from start ups to large global enterprises. And he is also a keynote speaker and is the best selling author of his number one Amazon book called Brand Intervention. He has won over 330 international design awards. I'm sure there's hundreds of more coming, and has been named the presidential ambassador for global entrepreneurship. He's also received recognition by some of the world's top names in the business world such as Daymond John from Shark Tank, as you all know.

Michael Georgiou: 03:30

I believe he was the founder of FUBU, and also Grant Cardone, which you see all over social media known as the you know, one of the top sales sales guys in the world. And, yeah, let's let's talk about it again. Your your nickname is, the grandfather amongst, many others, I'm sure. So, David, I really appreciate you, man. Thank you for, being on the show with me here today.

David Brier: 03:51

Oh, absolutely. My pleasure. Totally my pleasure. Can't wait. So,

Michael Georgiou: 03:57

David, we connected on LinkedIn, and, I know there was some some post. I I put this post up. You know what's funny is I had this post that I I I felt was really good. It was, I think it was the the, differences between, branding and marketing, and I know everything gets these words, these semantics get so convoluted, and everyone just, you know, keeps throwing them out. And, you know, I remember I you commented on that post, and we started connecting after that.

Michael Georgiou: 04:22

And I'm like and I did a lot of research on you. I'm like, man, I need to have this guy on the show. And when I read about you, it was just so intriguing and, just all the experience you have. I love marketing. I love branding.

Michael Georgiou: 04:34

I I I I just love the creativity and and, and in addition to that, storytelling. And I know you're a storyteller yourself, and we'll talk about that in this in this, in the show. But, kind of starting from the beginning, David, can you tell us a little bit about how you really got to where you are today in in just, you know, a few minutes? Really, what's what what are some of the the pinnacle moments? How did you get to to this place you are and this this this success, this level of where you're at right now?

Michael Georgiou: 05:05

How did it all happen?

David Brier: 05:08

I'd love to say it was all precisely by design, and that everything was exactly choreographed out, you know, timetabled out, knew where the milestones are gonna be, and that would be a load of crap if I told you that. Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, I can I can I can literally tackle that from a number of different angles, but let let me suffice to say this, that, you know, I have always been I came from being an illustrator and a painter and an artist and a designer? And so I came into learning about business as I started my career.

David Brier: 05:49

I got to appreciate, understand entrepreneurship a bit, etcetera, etcetera. And there was always a drive. There was always a fire that was I was always gonna, like, push what was possible, And there are times when I look at the things that I did early on, and I was like, what a what a set of balls. I I I I I I was blind ambition, man. It was like I'd go, well, why not blah blah blah blah blah?

David Brier: 06:24

And I think I think, based on what I've seen, more people when they first get into the workforce let go. Hey. I'm gonna conquer the world. Right? I can do anything.

David Brier: 06:36

Right? They haven't run into any battles that they've lost, and so they're I can so what could be done? If someone doesn't have that, then they're operating in a different sort of mentality than than I was. But the entrepreneurs that I know, the creators that I knew, the ones that I aspire toward to be like was, like, that's I love that. I love taking something that is ordinary and making it extraordinary.

David Brier: 06:59

I love taking something that's bland and boring and making it exciting. I love taking something that is, I mean, I first of all, just as a context, I love cooking, and I and I love I love music. I was a drummer when I was in my teens, so sometimes I'll use those as as analogies. You know, you could take a normal 44 if you know music. It's not like a regular boom.

David Brier: 07:21

But

Michael Georgiou: 07:22

Yeah.

David Brier: 07:23

And you could break it up, and it's like, how come you can't do it like you know, it's the same it's the same tempo, but all of a sudden you got a little more energy. And so I always love the tension of, you know, color versus versus black and white or space versus tightness, or typographically, what fonts created a certain, chemistry. That's that's really been the foundation that's opened up all the various opportunities that I that I went after.

Michael Georgiou: 07:57

Mhmm. And did did you always hear yourself?

David Brier: 08:00

Or does that look

Michael Georgiou: 08:01

Yeah. No. It does. And and it's listen. It's a it's a really overloaded question.

Michael Georgiou: 08:06

I the reason I ask is because everyone has their own take on it, on their own story, and and and, you know, getting to the point where they are today. I know David, I'm sure for you, being, you know, this this great businessman and, you know, you know, having having so much experience in branding, marketing, all these things. I'm sure you've had a lot of ups and downs as well. I'm sure that you've learned from a lot of those obstacles that you've you've gone through. You have to.

Michael Georgiou: 08:28

Right?

David Brier: 08:48

You know, grown their company into empires. I'm the exception to the rule. I'm being sarcastic right now for those that are only listening to this and not actually seeing the expression on my face. Of course. Every one of us has had successes, failures.

David Brier: 09:00

If somebody anybody's telling you any other than that, they're full of it. And so no. Yep. No. I've I've the worst thing that can happen is you make a mistake and you don't learn from it.

David Brier: 09:10

You know, that's the worst.

Michael Georgiou: 09:11

That's right.

David Brier: 09:11

So Yeah. But the thing is is that no. I mean, you know, and sometimes sometimes it's it's painful. I mean, I remember I remember my first client that I did not and I didn't have the the correctly worded contract, and I did not observe well enough myself at that point in my career that that project went on for 2 freaking years.

Michael Georgiou: 09:33

Yeah.

David Brier: 09:34

I made I lost money. I my whole thing was I'm gonna deliver. I'm gonna until my client's happy. Well, that's that's a good philosophy. It's, it's a lousy structure because you know what?

David Brier: 09:47

They can keep asking questions all day long. I you know, if they if their if their stupidity level is really, really deep, meaning, like, they're just not educated, they're not informed, or they didn't think this, or they didn't think that, and all of a sudden, it's like all of a sudden they're they're awakening as you're going through the process, and all of a sudden, that's changed the scope of the project. I failed by not having a proper structure in there to to account for that possibility.

Michael Georgiou: 10:12

Yeah. And I think this is a good segue, you know, into into this question that I have for you is, in all of your experience working with businesses, companies of all sizes, different industries, what what are some of the main branding problems, David, that you've seen and you've experienced that that that that you've faced with a lot of companies that they have? You know, what are some of the the the biggest branding problems that you've seen? You think it doesn't really vary in terms of small start up, large, or they all have very similar? Okay.

David Brier: 10:44

Doesn't matter. I mean, I will tell you it doesn't matter. I mean I mean, there of course, there's a you get to the outer fringes of, like, super experienced with, like, really barely experienced, of course. But in the main, it doesn't matter what their size. Basically, one of the biggest disasters is that companies are too myopic.

David Brier: 11:03

They're looking so closely at what they're doing and that they've lost a perspective on the outside world. And and so I one of the things that I tell clients do is said, you right now, I'm just gonna let you know, my job is to get you to fall out of love with your brand. And and you know what? Because if we if your baby's ugly, we need to know it. Okay?

David Brier: 11:20

I mean, I just straight up. Right? If your baby's incredibly talented. If you if you have, like, a freaking superhero there, but but you're but you're doing it a disservice by talking about it with the same language as all the other bozos. So if you've got a bunch of, let's say, very average if you have an industry that's been around for a while, and you're now coming in and you're gonna disrupt it, But you're talking the same language as everybody has been talking about for 40, 50, 60 years.

Michael Georgiou: 11:51

I see.

David Brier: 11:52

How does that respect your disruption? How does that let the world know, oh, by the way, we're introducing something new. You don't do that by using the language of the old. So I mean so that's so that's one with regard to language. The other is really being way too close proximity to to its own brand.

David Brier: 12:09

Like, every like, because look, you've been you've been in business. I've been in business. One of the first things you say, tell me about your company, and they'll usually tell you all these wonderful things. Wonderful. Wonderful.

David Brier: 12:20

Wonderful. And I go in for the dirt. I'm like, great. I say, thank you. See now.

David Brier: 12:25

Here's what I wanna know. If I went to your competitors, why do I know they would pretty much tell me pretty much about them what you just told me about you? At which point they go

Michael Georgiou: 12:37

Yeah.

David Brier: 12:38

Oh. Right? There's the big there's the disconnect right there. All of a sudden they go, oh. I said, that's right.

David Brier: 12:45

There's call this 2 worlds. The world that you're looking at is 1. World that I'm looking at is out there, and that's the one that's gonna give a damn as to how you're perceived, whether you're perceived as viable or not valuable or overpriced or underpriced or second rate or top or top level. So so these are the things those are a few of the ones that are very, very common problems.

Michael Georgiou: 13:07

And, you know, excuse me. You know, it's crazy, David, you say that because I've I've I've dealt in my career as well, I've dealt with a lot of start ups, even larger companies, And, especially, what I've noticed is in some of these, more blue collar type industries, a lot of industry industries that are not innovating as much, I've experienced, like, in construction and these contractor companies. And, you know, they're they're focused on the day to day, and some of them very successful. I mean, not all credit due to them. But when I've talked to them, they don't even think about branding.

Michael Georgiou: 13:38

Like, they don't they're like, what do you mean? I have a logo. I'm like, okay. They're like, yeah. We just created a logo.

Michael Georgiou: 13:46

Been around for 25 years, but it it's just I'm just like, wow. Like, I mean and some of them, I've I even wonder how they've become so successful. Some of them are are killing it. Some not some are killing it. I'm just like, wow.

Michael Georgiou: 14:00

They haven't even they've just been around for so long, and they're content. They're fine with with where they're at. It's just it's mind boggling, but I'm also thinking differently than them because I I think in that way, but they're not they're just like, hey. Listen. We need to get this work done.

Michael Georgiou: 14:15

We need to get this new client. They're not thinking about, oh, what's our brand personality? You know, what's the character of our brand? What's the emotional connection?

David Brier: 14:23

No. They're they're looking at a transaction model, and the bottom line is is if they if they happen to be a good salesperson I mean, I've I've known look. I I've I've dealt with clients in New York City where they've had a 100 they they've been property managers for $100,000,000 office buildings. And, you know, and it's like their whole thing was hammering out a deal. Right?

David Brier: 14:48

That's all they didn't care about brand. It was like, no. They didn't care about this thing that actually built something that was a relationship, that built something that was a longer play, that was more of the the marathon. Like, hey. You know, will people know you?

David Brier: 15:00

Are people just gonna know you on the last deal that you hammered out and the last contract that you got signed? And some of those some of those are happy with that model. But at the same time, I took one of New York City's premier landscape designers. Incredible work. Right?

David Brier: 15:15

The projects that he'll work on can go anywhere from $50,000 to half a $1,000,000. Right? And the work's amazing. And when and I remember when we looked at the when we when I looked at his brand, I said, your brand sucks. I said, everything that just came out of your mouth, if I looked at your what you gave me as a card and material like that and stuff like that.

David Brier: 15:42

I looked at that and listened to and compared to what because that like, you have to sometimes separate that stuff out because in their world, it's all it's all mishmashed altogether. Separate it out. All of a sudden, I said, do I would would I get that if I just looked at this? I held up his card, which is just a nightmarish. Said, would I would I get that from from what you just said?

David Brier: 16:04

People love my card. And I said and I remember I remember hearing that. Like, hey. People love my card. Like, dude, this is butt ugly.

David Brier: 16:13

Like, this is but it's not just a matter of, like, pretty or ugly. It's a matter of, like, it's butt ugly because it does not 1, it it is ugly, but 2, it didn't tell the story that I pay attention to every detail and will transform your ordinary area that you entertain and have your family and do whatever into an an oasis, into a sanctuary of just awesomeness. It didn't tell that story. And so that was the kind of that's the kind of stuff that I I love. I love taking people on that journey, and now he says he goes, you're the only person that gets me.

David Brier: 16:47

You're the only person that gets me, and his business has expanded as a result. He now knows what to do. He can take ownership of it.

Michael Georgiou: 16:55

That's great. Yeah. And they and they probably take they have a lot of pride in it now because they know that the they know the impact and effect that they have on their clients and on their community, their audience. It's crazy. What what it can do.

Michael Georgiou: 17:07

A lot of us a lot of us, they we think so short sighted. We're thinking about the now, and I think that's a big problem. You know? We have to think about the longevity, think about the long term. So but, yeah, that that's that's awesome, man.

Michael Georgiou: 17:18

And what do you do, David, in regards to your clients, from start ups to larger companies? How do you guide them? What advice do you give them, in regards to trying create their brand and trying to create that develop that emotional connection? What are some of the things that you tell them during your process?

David Brier: 17:35

Well, first, I have to recalibrate everyone, because most of the time, they're going, help us tell our story. Help us tell our story. Help us tell our story. Help us tell our story. And I'm like, will you stop talking about you already?

David Brier: 17:51

And then I just tell them. I said, first of all, let's make it perfectly clear. You are the least important person or company or part of this equation. I I I reign them in that way. And I say you I said, it's not a matter of are you important or not?

David Brier: 18:12

It's a matter of the most important person needs to be your customer. Your entire brand has to have as its nucleus, your customer. The greatest brands that you that we all celebrate and are all envious of are built around a customer and their values. And so I just reeducate them, and I reeducate them and reeducate them because they think the most important thing to tell and why they've hired me is to help them tell their story. No.

David Brier: 18:44

I've hired you to tell the right story in the right way so that it actually means something to the recipient and the individual. That's that's what I help them do. And and, you

Michael Georgiou: 18:57

know, David, I love that because when I see your content on LinkedIn and I I read it, I go through it, whether it's a post or a video or an article, whatever it may be, a lot of it, even though I know you have a great story, it's not about you. I've noticed a lot of the con content you put out, it's always about others, and I feel guilty of myself too. I I'm I'm trying to be more like that. But in the past, I've been more about you know, I've been bullied in the past. I've been through that.

Michael Georgiou: 19:22

I've been through all that all that stuff. It's made me who I am and, you know, it's been part of that. But at the same time, I'm like, okay. Yeah. People can care.

Michael Georgiou: 19:30

Maybe the really close people care about that, but if I'm gonna talk to someone who's never met me or seen you the same month, you've been bullied. Cool. Next post. Like, you know, it's it's hard to find that balance. How how do you find that balance with a company that that has that wants to show what they've been through and how they got to where they are today as a company, but then make it about their customer?

Michael Georgiou: 19:53

Or do do you just take out everything about their their story, you know, in general? Do you not talk about them at all, or is it a balance?

David Brier: 20:02

There's there's a there's a line that I have shared with clients that put it into context. And I simply tell clients, and I repeat it as often as necessary until they get it. The pathway to your customer's front door does not start at your front door. It starts at theirs. Simply say that.

David Brier: 20:27

I'm like, so the pathway to your customer's front door doesn't start at your front door. It starts at theirs. What does that mean? That means the things that are most real and important to them are their ideas, their frustrations, their challenges, their aspirations, their, you know, annoyances that they put up with, whatever. That's the stuff that's most important and relevant and meaningful to them, and that's at their front door.

David Brier: 21:00

And if we ignore that, they're always thinking about that stuff, and you're trying to interrupt them to get them to say, no. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. And and that I I compare that to a blind date.

David Brier: 21:12

When you go out on a blind date and the person you're going out with, the they wanna sit down and say, hey. Really excited we had a chance to get together. By the way, let me tell you all about me.

Michael Georgiou: 21:23

Let me tell you all about my business. Thought about it that way. That's so good. I love it. I'm gonna use that.

Michael Georgiou: 21:27

You're right. That's true.

David Brier: 21:30

Right? I mean, at that point, the bill can't that bill can't come fast enough. You're like, I'm out of here.

Michael Georgiou: 21:37

Oh, man. Yeah. That that's true. Yeah. That that yeah.

Michael Georgiou: 21:41

It's that's pretty cool, man. I mean, because when I you know, I'm I'm engaged now to to my amazing Jennifer, who I love very much, and, I'm trying to get married next year after this whole virus, all this stuff goes away, but hopefully.

David Brier: 21:52

Yeah.

Michael Georgiou: 21:53

And, I It will. I remember It will. It will. And, I remember we were when we first, you know, first dating and all that, it was always questions about, oh, so tell me about you. You it wasn't me bragging and telling me about me.

Michael Georgiou: 22:03

I would wait for her to ask. You're right. It's almost the same thing. You don't wanna keep talking about yourself, and a lot of us do it. I'm I'm guilty of it too.

Michael Georgiou: 22:12

It's a learning lesson. It's absolutely right, man. Wow. So what do you do, David, when you do interact with a client or potential client and they think they have a brand? They think they have a brand.

Michael Georgiou: 22:26

They've been around for a while. They're they're doing well. And you and and they they they do kind of have little, you know, more of an awareness of saying, okay. Listen. I I think we can make it better.

Michael Georgiou: 22:38

How do you you just go there and do an audit? Is it is it something like that? How do you redefine it and and improve it? Or sometimes you come in the case where they don't need improvement.

David Brier: 22:50

Well, first, we have to establish I mean, if I'm sitting there and they're going and they're going, hey. We're doing great. Like, why am I here? What what's I mean, you know, I I I like to ask the obvious questions. It's like, well, you know, if they're if they're kinda, oh, sales are going great.

David Brier: 23:07

Everything's going cool, and, you know, customer new customer acquisitions up and blah blah blah blah. Great. Congratulations, first of all. Now why am I here? What problem am I supposed to be helping you with if everything is fantastic?

David Brier: 23:25

You know, I mean, so because, you know, if those are 2 contrary facts. You've been invited in to talk them about their brand. So, you know and sometimes it's sometimes you end up in a in the very sorry state of sitting in the chair where you realize you're in the middle of a political in political infighting. This one is like, no. That's the way it's been being done for 20 generations, and we can't stand it.

David Brier: 23:48

That's disgusting, and we hate it. Disgusting, and we hate it. And then you have the personal here. It's like, well, I don't see any problem. Everything's fine.

David Brier: 23:53

I'm looking at I'm looking at the financials, and I'm happy. So then you go, okay. Well, you guys aren't on the same page. So that's that's, that's its own situation. That's

Michael Georgiou: 24:02

Yeah. That's

David Brier: 24:03

a waste of time. That's a waste of time at that point.

Michael Georgiou: 24:05

That happens a lot.

David Brier: 24:06

But are you talking about a different are you talking about a different you talking about a different circumstance than that?

Michael Georgiou: 24:11

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just talking about when they they do come to you for a need, obviously. They have that creative person in the company. Right?

Michael Georgiou: 24:18

Regards that's put aside the political, you know, internal stuff that's going on. But when you do have that person that does come to you and say, listen. We I think we can improve our our brand, but the company is doing well. You're probably not just looking at it financially. You're looking at it.

Michael Georgiou: 24:33

Are you guys making an impact to your audience? Is there is is your audience and your customers, are they feeling something from you? Are they getting? Do they feel are are you are your customers loyal? Maybe they're not loyal because they don't feel attached to your brand.

Michael Georgiou: 24:45

You know, maybe you're buying Well, that's that's

David Brier: 24:47

definitely definitely legitimate. If, for example, if we're like, hey. We're doing great. And I'm like, well, great. And and are you are you, you know, were you priced?

David Brier: 24:55

Medium? Are you a premium? Are you low? It's like, oh, low low low. And then then that's a little red flag.

David Brier: 25:02

I go, oh, so you're just in other words, you're just winning deals on price? Well, yeah. That's why we always you know? Then Example. Then you have an then you have an an open door for a conversation.

David Brier: 25:12

Or if it's kinda like, well, you know, we're actually sales are going, like, sales are going okay. Let me maybe they're kinda like level, at which, you know, let's say the level ish. They're not, you know, they're not contracting, but they're not gonna not it's not exploding. You go, okay. Let me ask you.

David Brier: 25:28

How's your how's the rest of you how your competitors doing? Now now let now here's the thing. If it if it's like, well, everyone's going level. So okay. That already tells me right there that they all are blending in, so there's no no one's no one's the winner.

David Brier: 25:42

So they're all just scrambling around for crumbs. That's that's that's one point. There's there's such obvious ways to to diagnose this. So that's one obvious thing. Or if they were to answer, when you say, well, how's your competition doing?

David Brier: 25:55

And they're going, well, all our competition's go go they're all exploding, but we're remaining level. I say, well, then in other words, you're near going out of business. Right? I mean, that I'll I'll just I'll just as I'll be very blunt about it. Yeah.

David Brier: 26:09

I'll say in other words, so you can't survive at this level. Even though it even though you're not contracting, but if this is happening and this is going like this, that means it's gonna be less people coming to you. Your actual spaces, even though you might be numbers wise, your days are numbered. Now now you have a different problem. You know?

David Brier: 26:28

Or if everyone so I mean so it's kind of comparative. You need to look at the macro and their micro. And if you don't look at both, it's impossible to evaluate how you can best help them.

Michael Georgiou: 26:40

Right. And and when does the, the design aspect of things come into play? Is it more in the beginning or is it later? So you're identifying the problem, all that. So when does that happen for you?

David Brier: 26:51

It it the the story Design is there to serve the brand. What is the what's what's the core of the brand? The brand story? The differentiator? Its reason for being in the world?

David Brier: 27:07

If you if you're designing in a silo independent of that, I don't consider designers doing their job if they're doing that. Then it's just, oh, let's make it look pretty. Well, we're not we're not in the lipstick business. You know? We're just not.

David Brier: 27:21

So that that's the one place because it's it's very interesting to me because I remember someone asked me. See, because I got in, do were you around when when when put it this way. I started my career in 1980. When did you what year did you start your career?

Michael Georgiou: 27:45

2011, 2010?

David Brier: 27:47

You're a baby.

Michael Georgiou: 27:48

Yeah. Yeah.

David Brier: 27:50

Alright. So here's the thing. Here's the thing.

Michael Georgiou: 27:53

Actually, technically, 2012 when I started my company, but anyways yeah.

David Brier: 27:57

Okay. So so so the thing is so so I've been doing this for 30 plus years by the time that you just got it okay.

Michael Georgiou: 28:05

I know. I know.

David Brier: 28:07

So here's so here so here's the thing. When I got in, I got in because of a particular designer who, based on the fact that when you got in the business, you probably wouldn't know who that designer was. But he's an amazing, amazing, very intelligent, very, very deep designer. Like, really not just superficial. Very and and the craft that he brought to the industry changed design for at least 2 generations.

David Brier: 28:37

Okay? And so someone recently said, who do you look up to? See, now if I was asked that in 1980 when I got, to, it would be like it would be this designer, and he inspired me. I mean, that was the foundation for my for at least the first 8 years of, like, everything. I kind of, in my mind, I cross checked, would that meet up to his standard?

David Brier: 29:02

Right? But then someone recently, about 8, 9 months ago, asked me, who do you look up to? And I looked around in my industry, and it's not designers. I do not look up to and there's no designer I actually there's designers whose work I appreciate. That's no.

David Brier: 29:23

It's just to distinguish. I appreciate their talent, without question. I appreciate their taste. I appreciate their craft. But there's no the the people that I that inspire me now are thought leaders.

David Brier: 29:36

You know, people like a Simon Sinek. Right? Mhmm. Sometimes sometimes Seth Godin. And so those are the ones that inspire me.

David Brier: 29:45

Those are thought leaders. I don't find I I don't know of any designers today where I go, wow, which to me is a shame. I would love to find, you know, some that were like, wow. They really help compliment, because to me, there's no way that you can design if you do not have what am I designing for. And that that the core is the brand story.

David Brier: 30:06

The core is why does this brand exist in the world. The core is how is this brand differentiated from all the other brands. If I don't know that, I cannot navigate my way through design, because I don't know what I'm designing against. I don't know what I'm designing for. And so that to me is is the sequence of it.

Michael Georgiou: 30:23

Yeah. And you were talking about, before you mentioned brand story. So I know that that gets thrown around, that storytelling gets thrown around a lot as well. In your your eyes, your experience, what really is brand storytelling? How would you define that?

Michael Georgiou: 30:38

And how powerful do you how powerful is brand storytelling in the overall branding and marketing strategy and and business plan?

David Brier: 30:48

I have a very exact response to that. If you if you know from my book, it's like I I defined branding because it there wasn't one agreed upon definition that everyone agreed upon of the 10,000 plus books. If you were to go on Amazon today, you'd find 10,000 plus books on the topic of branding. Crazy. But there's no agreed upon definition.

David Brier: 31:14

So I introduced I introduced the it came down to 4 words. Okay? The art of differentiation. Right? Now if you know that, branding becomes simple.

David Brier: 31:27

If you don't know that, it becomes, well, what's the story, and what's the pitch, and what's the elevator pitch, and what's the and what's our what's our persona, and what's our this and that, and then, you know, what the hell? Right? What's our slogan? What's our tagline? What's our mission statement?

David Brier: 31:43

I'm like, I'm like, most people, I could say, look. You can take your mission statement and shove it because it's because the one thing that I ask that normally puts a mission statement in its place is, no especially if someone if a new prospective client shows me that, I said, let me ask you something. Do any of your customers speak like that at all? And I've yet to have one single company owner, entrepreneur, CEO ever say oh, absolutely. That's how that really reflects the values of our client.

David Brier: 32:16

Never. It's like, we strive to provide the pinnacle of excellence and customers. It's like, who talks like that?

Michael Georgiou: 32:27

I know. Yes. Yeah.

David Brier: 32:28

Not not not even dead people. Dead people refuse to talk that way. And so so the thing is that's why it's that's why they're staying so still. They don't want anybody to see. Leave me alone.

David Brier: 32:38

I'm asleep. Get away get away from me. Oh, god. So and so but that's so that's the kind of thing I look at. I look at in getting all those bits and pieces.

David Brier: 32:48

Brand story, you know, you look at you know, there there are those. I mean, look. You you take a you take a look at, you know, Donald Miller. You take a look at this one. You take a look at you go, okay.

David Brier: 32:58

Story brand, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he's got his 4 points, and he has a model. He's a template. It's not a flawed template. It's not the greatest template, but I'm not a big fan of templates because of this. It's like innovations didn't result from a cookie cutter mentality.

David Brier: 33:14

Why the hell should a brand story result from the same thing? If you know your checkpoints of what are the points it needs to cover and touch upon, you can you can you can navigate. It's kinda like the brilliant it's like it's like that's why, like, you get some great artists or musician. You get someone like a a Jimi Hendrix or a or a Prince or or whatever. You get whatever musician or ever you you go, wow.

David Brier: 33:39

How did they play such an amazing solo? Did they did they have a little color by number? Well, I'll do play this. No. Play that.

David Brier: 33:45

No. They understood it inside and out to such an extent that they could they could create on top of it. And I see. That's where you get very fluid when you get into this kind of when you get into this kind of thing with brand story. To me, what is the role of the brand story?

David Brier: 34:00

Brand story needs to support we we need to identify what is the point of differentiation, and then if we know that, we then know how we are unlike everyone else, and from there we can start to navigate a story. We could start to navigate a story that aligns to the values of our customers and also aligns to putting out of existence the enemies of our customers. So we have the hero and the villain. And if you understand just those those components, all of a sudden you can start to weave a story that inspires. I mean I mean I mean I I mean, I took I mean, oftentimes, you know, probably, probably about half or 60% of the brands that I work on, I'll also create I'll say they'll say I'll say, is anything here sacred?

David Brier: 34:51

They'll say no. Everything's on the on the table. That means name, slogan, language, everything as well as the design. So good. Like, I took a company, and right now, they literally they they just called me this morning.

David Brier: 35:03

They are they they said it's all your fault, David. I'm like, what? They said they said we're having to buy new refrigeration, new equipment, new this, and all kind of stuff because they're in their they're in their 4th month of, like, continuous uptrending sales through this entire crazy per time period we're in. There in 4 months, it's just up and up and up and up and up, and it's like and they they they're running out of space. And they're in the premium food space.

David Brier: 35:29

Now I had to learn about the premium food space because I'm not I'm not, like, into, like, dog dogs and pets and stuff. I started to learn about this. I had to learn about Pet Fresh, which is one leading brand. Purina, probably the best known dog food brand, but also the worst quality food product that you could ever give to a dog, period. Mhmm.

David Brier: 35:48

And so you so you look at these, you know, puppy chow and this and that and the other, and you look at all these various things, but these guys were producing fresh, uncooked, amazing food. They had had some dogs with with cancer. They actually created these recipes. They did a research, fed it to their dogs. The the Wow.

David Brier: 36:03

And then their dogs actually recovered. And so they're not selling it as a cure, but they're selling it as something to help maintain the longevity of of dog owners, and dog owners are passionate about their dogs. So they what do they what do they have? Here and this is just answering your question in a in a context in regard to the brand.

Michael Georgiou: 36:21

Fantastic. Yeah.

David Brier: 36:22

And so what happens is is the, you know, they were Highland Farms is the name of their of their their their location. They have this amazing kennel. There's no kennel like it in the world. They have, like, 20 Russian bloodhounds. They're unbelievable.

David Brier: 36:38

They're gorgeous dogs. Boy dogs. Anyway, so the thing is is Highland Farms is what it's called, and I and I and I started discussing this with them, having the initial discovery call, and I say, you first of all, you think you're in the dog I said, what business do you think you're in? So we're in the dog business, dog food business. I said, no.

David Brier: 36:56

You're not. I said, you just told me all about your customers. You're in the life you're in the life you're a lifestyle brand. You are a lifestyle brand. You have people who love a certain quality of life who also happen to have pets.

David Brier: 37:10

You see, now I got a stage. You see, now I'm starting to formulate a story here. And so it went from Highland Farms you ready for the new name? Napa Fresh.

Michael Georgiou: 37:21

Nice.

David Brier: 37:22

Now you hear Napa Fresh. It's like first of all, you hear Napa. It's like wine, cheese, space, rolling hills, immediate. Napa Fresh, food for dogs. It's all and and and there's the the the art, the color, the design.

David Brier: 37:37

So now I've got that. Now I formulated that as the nucleus, which the name started to be be be be be be beginning of the brand story. It starts to now now I now I know where we are and where everyone else isn't. I've created boundaries between them and us. Now I can create a look, and then the look is so it's so Napa, Tuscan.

David Brier: 38:00

It's just got a beautiful vibe and coloration and everything, and they can't even keep the stuff in stock. They're they're selling us. They're so out of control. It's ridiculous. But that's what I say the sequence is always you gotta start the nucleus of the story, which is which reflects the values of the customer, and that that needs to show up in all the best basic places.

David Brier: 38:21

Highland Farms sounds nice. I don't know what the hell it freaking means. Napa Fresh food for dogs. I got no question. Now when you see the visuals, the visuals now just simply amplify it.

David Brier: 38:31

It, like, takes the innate innate beauty of that concept. Now I can dress that.

Michael Georgiou: 38:37

Awesome, man. Wow. I I love the the detail and the example that you gave. That was a perfect ending to the to this interview. And I I do have one more question for you, David, is I was asked this.

Michael Georgiou: 38:48

How would you define your story in one word or in one sentence? David Brier.

David Brier: 38:56

Alright. Well, I'm skipping over the one word option. That's off the table.

Michael Georgiou: 39:00

Okay.

David Brier: 39:00

Let let me go for one let me go for one sentence. Okay. A hunger and a thirst fueled by a love for story, people, design, and aesthetics.

Michael Georgiou: 39:26

Perfect. I love it. So good, man. So, David, where can everyone find you? Website and social media?

David Brier: 39:33

Totally. Yeah. Rising, risingabovethenoise.com. They people just go there. They can subscribe.

David Brier: 39:43

There's there's over 300 articles, and tons of visual case studies on branding there. It just tons of stuff. Lots of video. Definitely, you could catch me on YouTube, LinkedIn. Very, very active on LinkedIn.

Michael Georgiou: 39:57

The

David Brier: 39:57

one the one minute Wednesdays are are are dropped every Wednesday. Those are dropped on YouTube and elsewhere. But, you'll you could find me on Instagram, you know, Twitter, etcetera, etcetera. But I'd say LinkedIn, YouTube, and going to my website, risingabovethenoise.com, that'll be the thing. And everyone everyone's listening should buy their own copy of of brand intervention.

David Brier: 40:17

It's not like any it's not like any business book you've ever seen. It's not like any design book that you've ever seen. It's ins well, oh, you're you're gonna love this. I gotta show you this. You got you you got you gotta check this out.

David Brier: 40:29

Check this out. Okay? You you'll appreciate this. First of all, that's how it's actually designed inside.

Michael Georgiou: 40:36

Oh, I love it.

David Brier: 40:37

Okay? Now It's not like a regular book. It It's no. No. And the and the and the last and the last 50 pages last 50 pages are the actual playbook.

David Brier: 40:46

I actually show you examples. That's where the last 50 pages are.

Michael Georgiou: 40:49

That's so good.

David Brier: 40:50

But but besides that, I have to show you my most favorite chapter, chapter 26, because it consists of 2 sentences. Two sentences. That's all I needed because my whole goal was I refuse to give you, the reader, put you through the pain that I've experienced. I would read 300 page business books to find 10 pages that had the good stuff. Yeah.

David Brier: 41:14

It was drove me nuts. So so this is called good versus great. Okay? That's the chapter opener. There there's there's your chapter.

David Brier: 41:22

I'm gonna read it to you. Okay? There's your chapter right there. On on this one side, I'm gonna read this first sentence, and then this is the other side. A good brand makes us feel good about what they stand for.

David Brier: 41:35

A great brand makes us feel good about what we stand for. That's all that it needed, man. It's a kind

Michael Georgiou: 41:44

of a reflection. I read that chapter. I'm done.

David Brier: 41:49

But that's the thing. But so that that's why the book is it's not like it's just it's create look. The the opener here's here's the opener. This this is the opening thing. Right there.

David Brier: 41:59

That's the first page.

Michael Georgiou: 42:01

So perfect. I'm gonna order this thing. I'm gonna order it immediately. Amazon. Everyone, please order Brain Intervention on Amazon and other bookstores.

David Brier: 42:11

Hardcover. Only get that. Yeah. Trust me. That's production value.

David Brier: 42:14

It's hardcover. So good. Anyway but that's the that's the thing, and so that's why that's why I love this stuff. It's just a ton of fun.

Michael Georgiou: 42:21

Cool. David, man, I really appreciate you, man. I'm honored and humbled to have you on the show and talk to you, and I look forward to connecting further and and just building our relationship. And, please, everyone, check out David Brier and everything he has to offer. He's he's wonderful.

Michael Georgiou: 42:35

Super super amazing guy. Great energy and passion behind him. So, David, I really appreciate you, man. Thank you so much.

David Brier: 42:42

Absolutely, dude. Totally my pleasure, man. Thank you for having me.

Michael Georgiou: 42:45

Absolutely. Yes, sir. Alright. Well, I appreciate everyone. Again, my name is Michael Georgio, and I'm your host of Tales From the Pros.

Michael Georgiou: 42:51

Thanks, guys. Take care. Please subscribe to our YouTube page and also follow our social media. There are links somewhere around here. But, we really appreciate it guys.

Michael Georgiou: 43:08

Thanks for all the support and I'm gonna be giving you awesome content continuously. And we look forward to seeing you soon.