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What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team and systems, mastering money issues, and more; then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth-generating law firm? That’s what we do each week on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. Hosted by Davina Frederick, founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer –– every episode is an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve (and will pay you on time), and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. The goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund, and still have time to enjoy, the lifestyle of your dreams.
Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers? Ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or 2 to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love.
Intro:Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue, so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams. Now, here's Devina.
Davina:Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Divina Frederick, and my guest today is Keri Worrell. Carrie is the founder and owner of Simple Law Texas, and she leads a practice dedicated to making legal assistance affordable, accessible, and straightforward for clients. A graduate of the University of Houston and of Harvard Law School, Carrie's extensive career spans various legal settings from prestigious law firms to the federal government to now private practice. This breadth of experience has honed her ability to serve clients across a wide spectrum of legal needs.
Davina:Beyond her professional achievements, Carrie is deeply committed to community service. She frequently volunteers as a guest speaker educating real estate agents and fellow attorneys on topics ranging from probate and estate planning to real estate and business matters. In her personal life, Carrie embodies the spirit of adventure and appreciation for life's simple pleasures. She cherishes time spent with family, often embarking on travels in search of new adventures While savoring whether savoring a cup of coffee, immersing yourself in a good book, or taking in a scenic view, Carrie finds joys in life's everyday moments. Please join me in welcoming Carrie Worrell to the podcast.
Carey:Hi, Carrie. It's good to
Davina:have you here. Hello. Good afternoon. Good to be here. I know.
Davina:So you are in Texas? Beautiful Texas. What part of Texas?
Carey:I am halfway between Houston and Galveston. So Houston Metroplex, but on the southeast side.
Davina:Good. Good. So I want so you're dealing with warmer weather there probably, but maybe it's got a little bit cooler in the last couple days.
Carey:Well, it was 90, maybe 95, like, 2 days ago. But today, it is in the seventies. So it's amazing.
Davina:So it feels like fall finally.
Carey:Yeah. That's
Davina:interesting. So I wanna hear, I've got so many questions for you today. I wanna start with kind of getting an idea of whether you were the kind of kid who always knew you wanted to be a lawyer or if this just something that evolved for you over time.
Carey:Yes and no. No. I was not always the kid who wanted to be a lawyer, but I was always the kid that was told that they should be a lawyer. What wanted to be was a child psychologist. I don't really know where I got that from.
Carey:But I was kind of a bratty child, to be honest, and I always argued with people. And because I was, like, reasonably good at it, everyone was like, oh, you should be a lawyer. I'm like, now in hindsight, I'm like, that's just a nice way for saying you're kinda being a jerk. Because I would just argue with people all the time. And so, honestly, by the time I got to high school, I was pretty well set on being a lawyer because people had just told me that for years.
Carey:That's so interesting. Ended up that way.
Davina:And we always get that rap, you know, of, oh, you you love to argue, so you'd be a good lawyer. And it's and it's it just makes no sense. When you actually get into the practice of law, you really understand what it's all about. Yeah. It's really not the defining characteristic.
Carey:No. And and now I don't even like the kind of lawyering that is arguing. So
Davina:Yeah. But that can't happen.
Carey:And by the time I, you know, graduated from high school, it was already said.
Davina:That was what you were gonna do. Do you have any other lawyers in your family?
Carey:I don't. Well, I have a cousin that just got admitted to the bar last week, but that's it. Really?
Davina:I'll do that. Congratulations to them. Alright. So tell me then, you decided you're you're gonna be a lawyer. You go to undergrad.
Davina:You go to law school. You went to Harvard Law School. How was that, Was that difficult for you to get in? How was the how was that experience?
Carey:I loved going to Verford, but I always felt like I was out of my league. Even when I graduated with honors, still, I was like, I'm still out of my league here. I I don't know if it was hard to get in. I was surprised that I got in. I literally overnighted my application the night before it was due.
Carey:So it got there on my due date, and I really did not think I would get in. But lo and behold, I did. And I did. I loved it. And I I did love it and met so many great people there.
Carey:And it's such a awesome environment that I don't think is replicated very many places, at least other places that I've been to. But I mean, I don't I don't know why they picked me to get in. I'm pretty blessed with being good at taking tests. So I guess I did well in the LSAT. And, I mean, my grades were good, but there's lots of people with good grades.
Davina:Right? Did you find it an advantage, having been a Harvard Law grad when it came to your career and getting your first job and that kind of thing?
Carey:I don't know. I do think it has been an advantage. There is just a certain amount of prestige with saying that you graduated from Harvard. Whether it's deserved or not is debatable and a whole another conversation, but it does open doors and it does, give you some level of expertise without actually having to prove that you really have any expertise. Again, it's worked in my advantage.
Carey:Do I think that's a good way for things to work? I I don't know. But, it does have a tendency to do that.
Davina:So tell me about your first job out of law school and where you worked before you opened your own practice, some of the places that you worked, and what those experiences were like.
Carey:My first job out of law school was as a federal judicial clerk in district court, in the Houston area. I was actually in the Galveston division just doing standard what federal law clerks do. When I started there, I was already committed to go work at a large Texas firm, although it's a Dallas firm. It the Houston office was a little bit smaller. So I was already committed to do that the year after I did my clerkship, which I did do.
Carey:Although, by the time I ended my clerkship, the judge that I worked for had asked me to come back to be a permanent law clerk. And so, really, when I started my law firm job, I already knew I was gonna leave exactly 1 year later to go back to be a federal law clerk, which I did. I loved that job. It's a great job. At that time, they don't do this anymore because it was too good of a gig.
Carey:They salary matched to the private sector. So I actually went back to that job in the federal government, I was making more than what I had made at a law firm. And it was a great job. It was Galveston's like a beach town, so it's super casual. The hours were great.
Carey:It's challenging work. I did enjoy working for the person I worked for, but he got embroiled in a scandal and was impeached and imprisoned and disbarred. So I lost my job. Oh, no. Oh, yeah.
Carey:That's a whole that's that's a whole book, in the future someday. I did go work for another federal judge after that, but that was honestly a pretty traumatic experience going through that. It was a several years long FBI investigation, grand jury testimony, all of that. So I was just kind of ready to move on from the the courts. So I left there.
Carey:I was a stay at home mom for a little bit. I worked in my husband's real estate business. And once my kids started getting a little bit older, I just thought I was gonna do my own thing. And that's when I started my own firm.
Davina:Yeah. That was gonna be my next question is what made you what was kind of the catalyst for starting your own firm?
Carey:I really just had more time on my hands. My kids were getting older. My husband's in real estate. Real estate was going through a downturn. I was like, I have this law degree.
Carey:I could just why don't I just get people to pay me money to do legal work? I don't know why I haven't, like, dawned on me before, but, so that's what I did. Just decided to do it one day. And I started small with no real aspirations to grow anything big. But as my kids have gotten older and my time has freed up, it's grown along along with it.
Carey:Yeah. That that, I
Davina:was curious about that if when you started, you had this vision. You you as opposed to going back to work in a firm, were you drawn to sort of working for yourself because of the hours and the flexibility? Was that kind of what you were thinking?
Carey:Yeah. I mean, I couldn't imagine at that time going back to work in a firm. I like working when I wanna work. I don't really do that great answering to somebody else or, you know, doing things that somebody else wants me to do. I don't really like dressing up and driving downtown, which is where most of the good, you know, law firm jobs would be around here.
Carey:And so I had watched my husband work for himself. I mean, my parents worked jobs, you know, 9 to 5 jobs, very good jobs, but I never really saw what it was to be an entrepreneur when I was a kid. But my husband is an entrepreneur, and when I watched him do it, I was like, yeah. I could do that. I can work my own hours, do what I wanna do, work as much or as little as I decide to.
Carey:I couldn't have fathomed going back into a law firm.
Davina:Yeah. Yeah. I had that experience too. My husband is an entrepreneur and very you know, was that when we met. And I had grown up with people who work for the government actually, and had regular steady paychecks and regular jobs.
Davina:And when I met my husband, he was definitely very entrepreneurial. And and it it just gave me a view into a whole other world that I didn't even know existed. Yeah. And I I truth truth be told, I envied him because, like, in the middle of the day, he could go to Costco.
Carey:And I was like, I know. It's not great.
Davina:I've always worked someplace where I have been stuck very well. Exactly. Of course, the ironic thing is neither of us really go to Costco during the day.
Carey:Oh, you could, you could, if you want me
Davina:to, if we wanted to. Yeah. If either of us do, it's likely to be him because I'm usually working. But, so tell me what your, you have a little bit different vision for your law firm, that may maybe stands out from other people in that. I mean, it's named Simple Law.
Davina:Right? So tell me what that means to you. Why that what philosophy is behind that name? Why would name it why would you name it Orel Law?
Carey:Orel is really hard to say. Everyone pronounces it wrong and spells it wrong. But that's not really that's not why I went with it. Honestly, right when I was starting to build the practice into something bigger, Texas started allowing trade names for law firms. We were never allowed to do that before, and it's fairly new actually in the past few years.
Carey:So I just kinda thought, well, I'd like to go with the trade name. What how is it that I practice law? And I'm not really one of those people that has, like, this calling to the law or, like, passion for anything in particular. So I really had to kinda think about how is it that I do things differently. And, honestly, what I do different from other attorneys is I make things simple and less complicated.
Carey:There's a lot of people out there that don't use lawyers because they overcomplicate things. So we work with a lot of families and small business owners, and the reason that they haven't used lawyers in the past isn't because they don't need one. And it's not because they don't know that they need one. They do. It's that the people that they've worked with have made things overly complicated, asking for so much information that it's so burdensome even just to get an appointment with somebody and then trying to do things in a way that eliminates every single possible avenue of risk.
Carey:And that tends to over complicate things. And then what ends up happening, especially with business owners, that they stop calling lawyers because it gets too expensive and too complicated. So my business model is to bring simplicity to families and business owners in a way that actually incentivizes them to get a lawyer when they need a lawyer so that they're not scared. It's not this insurmountable task to get something accomplished. I just wanna make it simple.
Carey:That doesn't necessarily mean it's always easy, but we try and take things that can be complex and do them in the simplest, most efficient way possible. You know, we try and make making an appointment easy, keeping an appointment easy, communicating with us is easy. And then when we look to solve somebody's legal problem, we try and do it in the simplest way that achieves the goal. Oh, well. Yeah.
Carey:So it's kinda my bridge.
Davina:It's a huge, issue that I see. I'll give you an example. Recently, my parents needed to hire an attorney, and they had, an intake form that was yay thick that before they even got to meet with a lawyer, they had to fill out this voluminous form with a lot of personal questions, and they didn't even know the lawyer who was asking these personal questions. And they're in their mid eighties. They had no interest in spending time filling out a bunch of forms.
Davina:It was an estate planning lawyer. And I just thought how what a barrier this Yeah. Law firm and attorney had put up to these clients. Right. Because they they were trying to, you know, learn everything they could before they even met with the person.
Davina:And it really made them feel not very seen and heard. So Yeah. You know?
Carey:Well, luckily, they thought they had, you know, someone like you that could probably help them with it. But for somebody that doesn't have the form. Yeah. Exactly. But for somebody that doesn't have somebody like that, they get a form.
Carey:What they do is they will just throw it away or not open the email.
Davina:And then it's not even that
Carey:they go call another lawyer. They just kind of give up. And I've seen business owners and families, you know, lose significant assets in their business, significant assets through, you know, inheritance or divorce simply because it was just too to get a lawyer. Right. And a lot of times when I talk to people, they're like, well, okay.
Carey:Do I need to come into your office? I'm like, well, you can, but you don't have to. I'd prefer if you don't. Let's just talk on the phone. And, you know, what information do you need from me?
Carey:I'm like, I need your name and your email address. And they it's like a breath of fresh air. Like, oh my gosh. I knew I would have called a long time ago if I knew it was gonna be this easy. And so I think it does.
Carey:It's almost you know, it keeps it it's a barrier to certain forms of justice when lawyers overcomplicate it. And even though I'm not working in the pro bono sector or, you know, anything like that, most of my clients are small business owners. Their biggest asset is their business, and they're not having it adequately protected because of complications in the process that really don't need to be there. Obviously, yes. Sometimes you do need to fill out the very long questionnaire.
Carey:But in my experience, like, 99% of the time, it's not necessary.
Davina:Yeah. Yeah. And I also find, like, from from my experience having sometimes walking people through something instead of giving them something and go, here, fill out this long form. Just send me a conversational answer 99% of the questions. Right?
Carey:And why does the lawyer not wanna walk through their 50 page document? Because it will take them 2 hours. Well, that's the same reason your client doesn't wanna fill it out too. Like Just ask them the question.
Davina:And then we'll be there. Beyond it goes beyond sort of intake and filling out forms. So you're talking about too is sort of making, legal protections accessible to people. Because I think it I think we forget sometimes as lawyers, especially if we've been practicing a long time, that what is just common language jargon to us, concepts that we just understand,
Carey:you know,
Davina:inside out, front and backward. That people that our clients that we're talking to, they may understand they need some sort of protection, but they may not understand how to get there. And sometimes we can really complicate that process and people feel condescended too. They feel Yeah. As though they're, you know, being talked down to by lawyers.
Davina:And so I think there's a there's a whole lot more that goes beyond just, you know, intake forms and what we're talking about. If you found that to be the case.
Carey:Oh, yeah. I think that's definitely true. Mainly, I find that when I talk to people who had a different lawyer previously, that almost sometimes lawyers don't even try and explain things to their clients because they aren't capable of breaking it down into a simple explanation, which can leave the clients thinking, oh gosh. Do they think I'm just too dumb to understand this? Like, oh, well, I'll take care of it.
Carey:You're not capable. Yeah. I definitely think that happens a lot with families and and business owners, both.
Davina:How does your sort of simplistic simple philosophy, we'll say simple philosophy, weave itself throughout how you operate your firm?
Carey:It's a good question. I might have to think on that one for a few days. Okay. In terms of systems and the way
Davina:you work with your team, that kind of thing.
Carey:Yeah. No. I think in everything I do, this is just my personal life and the firm, I'm always looking for the simplest solution. So if that is, you know, hiring hiring employees or onboarding employees or figuring out how to get a case from start to finish, I first look at it and say, okay. What's the easiest way to do this that is effective?
Carey:Obviously, it has to be effective. And then remove everything else that is kind of unnecessary. I also I don't know if this is a blessing or a curse, but a lot of lawyers have, you know, a type a personality. They have great attention to detail. I actually I don't tell anyone, but I do not have a type a personality, and I actually don't have that great of an attention to detail.
Carey:And so, you know, sometimes that can definitely be a curse, but I think I've been able to use that to my advantage because I can see, no, going above and beyond in that area is actually not necessary. It's added time, added expense, added stress. But I think I'm able to do that because I'm actually okay with things not being completely perfect. I'm not a perfectionist. I'm I don't know that there's a word for me, but it's somebody
Davina:that that's very rare in the especially in the women law firm, a woman lawyer, you know, law firm owning space. I think that's kind of a a rarity because usually you find women to be who've gone through law school to be perfectionist, type a.
Carey:This is
Davina:one of the problems that often cat you know, we caught up in in growing our business because we're trying to be the gold star student, and we don't realize that we don't have to be the gold star student. Who are we trying to impress anymore? Right? But I think one of the things so you and I worked together for a while now, and one of the things that's really struck me about, you is you are really a master delegator. You delegate with ease, and that is unusual.
Davina:Usually, when I'm working with clients, I find that this is one of the areas we have to work on because there's such a feeling of I can't trust What if somebody else screws it up and it's my name on it? But you really are really good at delegating. What do you think is it this kind of, personality that you think is behind you being such a good delegate? Or what is that
Carey:for you? I do think it is partly my personality because even though I think I do things pretty well, I think other people can do things pretty well too. And I also really believe that my way isn't the only way that something could be done. So if I have a certain font and a certain justification and certain paragraph format that I would put my documents in, I also understand that it's still just as legally effective even if it's in a different font. And that kind of stuff just doesn't really bother me.
Carey:Like, it seems to, you know, really affect other people. And I don't know if that's good or bad, but that's just how I am. But so it does make it easy for me to delegate because it actually doesn't really bother me if somebody's not doing it exactly how I would have done it or even as good as I would have done it. I'm okay with a slightly lower standard as long as it is sufficient and is getting our clients work done. I don't wanna make it sound like I'm sacrificing and doing shoddy work, because we're not.
Carey:But I'm okay if somebody does it slightly different than me. I think also one huge benefit I have, and this was just luck, is that I have an assistant who actually is very type a and has a great attention to detail. So it's very easy for me to delegate to her because she will fix all of my mistakes. She will find all of my mistakes, and it's a perfect combination because I don't get stressed out. I mean, honestly, she gets stressed out by it more than I do, which is great because then I have the stress of delegating it to somebody and it not getting done how I would have done it.
Carey:But I have somebody there that's making sure that there's no mistakes.
Davina:I think the key yeah. I think the key factor is your team, is having somebody there who's balancing out those things and and having the right team. So to that end, a lot's changed for you in the last year because, you for a while, it was you and your assistant. And now tell me about your team. How many attorneys?
Davina:How many assistants? What do you do you have on your team?
Carey:So now we have me. I have 2 full time attorneys. My assistant, who is the same person, but she used to be just part time. She's now full time. She'd be on full time.
Carey:I'm paying her overtime every every pay period. But, and then I have a she has an assistant now. So she's more of a more of a firm kind of administrator or moving into that role a little bit. And then we have recently hired an assistant to help her and kinda take over some of the stuff she had been doing. And then I have 2 part time contract attorneys that do overflow work.
Carey:So that's quite a team. Part time. A part time receptionist. So that's quite a team.
Davina:You've and you've done you've scaled to that within a year. Yes. So how does that feel? Depends on the day you ask me.
Carey:Some days, I feel great. In some days, I'm like, why did I do this? But but most of the time, it great. My team is amazing. I have gotten so lucky with every person I've hired.
Carey:I'm not really sure what I did to deserve them because they are all excellent. They're strong where I'm weak, and I'm, strong where they may have weaknesses. So we make a great team. And I love I love helping to develop people. I love helping people realize their, you know, potential.
Carey:And I have, a few people on my team that I don't think had worked at a place before where somebody had, confidence in their ability and their, you know, could see a future for them beyond what they were currently doing. And so I've been able to do that with really all of my team members, and I think that's extremely rewarding, and I do love doing that.
Davina:Yeah. But tell me what your I know some people are gonna wanna know sort of what your hiring secrets are. And you may not have really thought you had any hiring secrets, but tell me what, you know, kind of your approach to the hiring experience, that helped you sort of identify that these would be good candidates for your job. So good.
Carey:I think it's been different with every team member and has definitely evolved over time. With my assistant, truly, I just got lucky. A mutual friend introduced us. That was just luck. But having worked with her, I then learned what I really needed in an employee, and in somebody to be on my team.
Carey:So for the attorneys that I hired after that, I don't know that I have a a secret, but the way I've done it is create a job description that I think accurately captures what it is like to work with us. I see a lot of extremely generic job postings that describe every single lawyer job in America almost. They're very vague. They list some combination of, you know, 401 k and medical benefits. They don't really list a salary range, and they don't give you a feeling of, like, what are the other people like that work here.
Carey:And I have tried to accurately capture that when I just make a job posting that we're pretty laid back. If you are not laid back, you're probably not gonna like us. I don't say that, but I try and portray that, so that I get people wanting to work with us, that it sounds like it's a fun and challenging place to work. So that's where I start. Most of the well, the attorneys that I've hired, I have hired almost all of them through, lawyer Facebook groups that I'm in.
Carey:And I think I've had some luck because I will post the job posting. And then just because I've been in those Facebook groups for a long time and know a lot of people, a lot of people will comment on them and say, oh, Kira would be a great person to work with. And I think that gives credibility. It's almost like a Google review for you as an employer, and that has, allowed me to get
Davina:a lot of applications for all
Carey:of the positions that I posted.
Davina:Yeah. I think that's a great tip.
Carey:Yeah. That's a great tip. I I wanna talk I wanna go back
Davina:to the delegation piece because I wanna get into a little details on some of that because I think people listening will, enjoy sort of those details. So for instance, when you and I talk about something and you and we come, well, we're gonna do this or do that. The need your reaction of a lot of high achieving women is I will get right on that when he said that I'm not to do list and
Carey:I'll get right on that. And your reaction
Davina:a lot of times is, oh, let me get so and so on that.
Carey:I will get them right on that.
Davina:And I love that. I think that's I think that that's ultimately what we're trying to achieve with most everybody is to start thinking in turn more expansively in terms of when something needs to get done in my business, I don't have to be the doer. In fact, I shouldn't be the doer for 99% of the things. And I think that's one of the things that you do really well. And I know this goes back to kind of your personality and stuff, but also kind of confidence in your team to get it done and thinking that maybe they would be better at it.
Davina:Right?
Carey:Yeah. I mean, half of the time, they are better. And Yeah. But it I it's easy for me well, it hasn't always been easy for me to do that. I mean, there have been years where I have had things on my to do list for years, ideas that I've had or things I wanted to do.
Carey:I have a lot of ideas. I'm definitely an ideas person, and I've never been an executor. And for a long time, I've kinda beat myself up. Oh, gosh. Another year that you didn't write a book, another year that you didn't start a business, or whatever it is.
Carey:But I think as I've gotten older, I realized that you I can't be good at everything, and there are other people that are good at these things that I'm not good at. So I already know if I put it on my list, it's probably gonna still be on my list next week unless I put somebody else in charge of it. And I've learned that about myself over time by having a to do list that has the same things on it for weeks weeks weeks without me doing it.
Davina:Done that thing
Carey:where you transfer it, into fresh produce?
Davina:Yes. I've done that. I'll work.
Carey:And they're like, it's this long, and this is all the time. Yeah.
Davina:Then you keep transferring.
Carey:People going out of paper. And you're like,
Davina:I've written this over and over 3 or 4 times out. And I do think when you're in terms of delegating, one of the things that you and I've talked about is it helps if you have a meeting. Right? So if you you say, I won't do a thing if it's just on my to do list. But if I schedule a meeting with a team member Yes.
Davina:I can articulate that. Tell me about tell me about that sort of process, what thought process.
Carey:Yes. I've got that has worked wonders for me. I wish I would've done this decades ago just in every aspect of my life. Yeah. If I put it on my list, I'm I may or may not do it.
Carey:I'll do it if I have time, but usually I have so many things scheduled that I don't have time. But I I always show up to things that are scheduled. I don't ever no show people, and I'm very rarely late. So if I put it as a meeting with one of my team members and then we just hash it out, I can just spout off all the things that I would have written on my to do list or just what's in my mind as an idea. And because they're so great at executing, they take notes, they make it happen, and then it's done before next meeting.
Carey:It's, it's like a miracle. I don't know what the fuck are they doing this? Yeah. Like, what is it? Before.
Carey:Why did I not do this? So just last month, I was like I honestly met with my assistant probably, like, 4 times, and I was like, okay. I'm working on this marketing plan that I'm gonna want you to do. I'm next week. I'm working on I'm still working on this marketing plan.
Carey:I just have to write it down. And then finally, I was like, you know what? We're scheduling a meeting at 10 o'clock next week, and we are writing this down. And, of course, I planned around the meeting. I didn't plan anything over it.
Carey:I showed up to the meeting. I said all the stuff I wanted to do. And now it's written and it's being executed and it's, it would have still been on my to do list. I guarantee. Feel so good.
Carey:It feels great. And she's making leaps
Davina:and bounds progress that's over doing that. You tell me also about I wanna talk a little bit about your marketing, because you just mentioned your marketing plan. And I think what's really great is we we sort of find the things that we are really good at, and we focus on those strengths instead of focusing on things we are not really good at. Yeah. And let's find other people to do that.
Davina:I think for you, one of the things that you're really good at is once you have the plan and you've you've got the appointments, you're you're executing. You're there doing it. And to that end, some of the things that you're doing for marketing, why don't you share some of the things that you've kind of been doing for marketing that you've noticed have made a difference for you?
Carey:My main marketing source is personal referrals. And so the best way for me to increase those is by meeting more people. And I love meeting people. I love going to lunch with people. I love going out to restaurants.
Carey:I could do that for every meal. And usually when I talk to people, they will find a way to refer to me. We usually get along. I can pick people that I know I can help and that I know can help me. And usually, we have some sort of a mutual exchange.
Carey:And that for me has been really successful. Where I haven't been well executing it is being systematic in my approach to a certain list of people, a certain time of day. And so it was really being done very haphazardly. So that's kind of what some of my marketing plan is, is to do that in a more systematic way where I'm not out there thinking, who do I wanna eat lunch with this week? Where I actually have a system where somebody else is calling these people, making these lunch appointments.
Carey:I just show up and eat lunch and talk to people, and it's awesome. I love that. And I can like a whole I can generate business that way because I I think that we do offer a good product that not very many people in this area are offering. And if I can talk to people about it, they will refer me business.
Davina:I think that's interesting. And I wanna well, I will throw throw this out too is one of the other things you're doing is a lot of public speaking. I think public speaking yields a lot more conversations as well for you. Right?
Carey:Yes. No. Absolutely. And it's the same thing with that. I have had an opportunity to do a lot of public speaking, mainly through title companies and realtors.
Carey:And it was just kinda happening. Someone would hear my name. They'd call me. Do you wanna do this? Sure.
Carey:I'll do it. My schedule's open. It wasn't very systematic. Then once I saw that that actually did lead to a lot of referrals, I added that to my systematic marketing plan, whereas, okay, these are the agents we wanna talk to. These are the marketing reps we wanna talk to.
Carey:Here's how many of these speaking engagements we wanna do, and then delegate that to somebody else to get scheduled.
Davina:I can show up and
Carey:do the speaking engagement, and I'll do great. If you leave it and if somebody reaches out to me and says, can you do it? I'll say yes. But in as far as being systematic in scheduling those and getting a certain number on the calendar, that's where I was kinda dropping the ball. But but now someone And so it's awesome.
Davina:But it's the intentionality. It's being very intentional in in who you're reaching out to and having somebody to help reach out for you. Yeah. I wanna know about your conversations with people in your networking. Because I think a lot of people get stopped when they say, well, you know, I do the coffees or I do the you know, I joined the b and I group, and I do the coffees, or I meet with people, or I go speak, and I talk to people.
Davina:But does it really yield business for me? And I and I wonder, I think a lot of people would say, what are the kind of levers in the conversation that you make sure that you're pulling when you're talking to people who could be potential worse or referral sources to you? Mean, are you just sitting there talking about sort of your dogs and your kids? Or or how are you bringing up business and talking about business in a way that doesn't feel like you're trying to pitch them?
Carey:I mean, I think you mentioned BNI, one of, like, the key strategies in BNI's givers game. And I it's outside of BNI, but I think that is truly the key. And I I think it really actually does help. If you go into a conversation with somebody and you start it with, what are you doing? What are you up to?
Carey:How can I help you? You know, how can I, who can I introduce you to? That just naturally starts a conversation that basically without you having to direct it that way leads into all of those things for you. Because anyone with any reasonable level of conversational skills is then gonna respond with, oh, well, how can I help you? And then once they've asked you, you're not being sales y.
Carey:Right? They asked you. So now you're just, you know, telling them how how you could work together. I think also meeting with people who understand referral based marketing, either because it's a part of their business also or they've just had some familiarity with it, makes it easy. Because they understand that they understand what the goal is.
Carey:Yeah. We're here to eat lunch and to get to know each other. And if we become friends, that's great. But also, I wanna hear about your business and see if it can help the people that I know. Because if it can, I can make myself look good when I refer you?
Carey:That's I think
Davina:you said a mouthful right there. And that is really focusing on the other person and saying, if you know, I wanna know about your business because if I can refer you, I might help people. It's gonna help me because other people are gonna appreciate that I made those referrals. And then it's gonna create that kind of, you know, wheel. Right.
Davina:I think, I think too where we often sort of make our mistakes is in not thinking through how somebody might be able to help us. Because the person sitting in front of you may or may not be a client. Right? They may they may be somebody that has is never gonna be a client of yours. So when you're thinking of how can you help me?
Davina:Well, you know, the the logical answer is refer me this type of person. Right? But it might also be, I'm looking for speaking engagements if you know Yeah. Anybody. Or who, you know, who's looking for speakers.
Davina:And this is the type of people I like to get in front of. Or if there's anybody you think I should meet, that would be a good fit to, you know, we share the same audience, but we don't offer the same services. You know, that kind of thing. So what are some of your questions that you'd like to ask?
Carey:I mean, I always ask people, you know, what do you what do you do in your business? Who can I introduce you to? I think a lot of times that's the who can I introduce you to is is key? Other types of questions I asked. I don't know it.
Carey:I mean, it's sometimes so organic with the person that you're talking to. I think also any and this isn't just for, you know, networking. This is just in general. If you're in a conversation with somebody and you ask them about the things you know they're interested in, that makes people feel good about the conversation. And if as long as they know what I do, if they also feel good when they talk to me, if something comes up, I'm confident that they will think of me as long as I continue to put my name in front of them and they just don't forget that I exist.
Davina:Yeah. This is the this is the thing the the the thing of people remember how you make them feel.
Carey:Exactly. Well, and when I used I used to teach a class to law students, and we would give interview tips. And this is what I did in all of my interviews during law school, which is like a million because you go to these days where they have, like, 30, 15 minute interviews. And if you're in someone's office, it's so easy to just, like, literally look at something they have on the wall, ask a question about it. The interview is done 15 minutes, and they're gonna feel great because basically they, you know, talked about themselves the whole time.
Carey:So I can remember, like, you know, even I the the judge that I worked for was really into civil war history, and I know very little about the civil war other than, like, the basics you learn in school. And I went into his office and he had, like, this picture that's clearly the civil war. And literally all I said was, oh, I see your picture of the battle of such and such. You know, that's always been something or that's been something I've never really known much about. Literally end of the interview, he's just, like, talked about the civil war the whole time and I get a job.
Carey:And it's like, you know, it's not you can tell what other people are interested in, and they wanna talk about those things. And I like learning about those things. It's not contrived. I mean, I'm not making it up to, like, be fake or trick them. But I think that's just a natural way to develop an affinity with another person.
Davina:Yeah. I think that's great. That's a great tip. Great advice. So you've been, coaching with me for the last year.
Carey:Mhmm.
Davina:I would love to hear about your what you think the biggest takeaways have been for you with coaching. Has coaching been the kind of experience that you were expecting? Has it been different? What's kind of been your takeaway from it?
Carey:I have a lot of takeaways. I have a feeling I actually gonna have to tone myself down a little bit in my personal life because I talk to a lot of lawyers all the time. I share we collaborate on a lot of things and have a lot of social groups with lawyers. And I always am like, well, Davina said this.
Davina:But I'm so dumb. You're not telling yourself down.
Carey:Yeah. I know, I need I'm I'm having to tone myself down. So, but all that is to say, I have learned so much in coaching. Is it what I expected? I don't know.
Carey:I don't think I had any expectations. It is definitely what I had hoped for, and there are a lot of great coaches out there and I had talked to a lot of them. But then when I met you, I was like, nope. This is the person that I click with. I think this is the person I'm gonna get the most value out of.
Carey:And I mean, definitely, I have through all all different so many different things. But a lot of this has changed
Davina:a lot.
Carey:It has changed a lot. I mean and I don't even know that that's what I was planning when I started. But yeah. But it's growing, and it's been great. And it's fun.
Davina:I think that's been kind that was kind of an interesting experience too is when we started. I think you knew you wanted something more, but you weren't really sure what that meant and what that looked like. And I I I think a lot of people think, you know, it's gotta be 7 figures or it's gotta be look this way or be able I guess that's what everybody pitches or promotes. I mean, you know, we all pick something that we're out there promoting and talking about. But really, your law firm should be reflective of your vision, and I think you getting clarity on your vision.
Davina:Like, you knew you wanted something more, but you weren't really sure what that looked like, and we're not sure that this is it yet or it may be. But, you know, what do you think about that?
Carey:I I think also part of it is kind of I always wanna be someone that is content, but also looking to grow. Right? Because I don't ever wanna be that person that's always just like, oh, it's the next thing that's gonna make me happy. Once I'm at 7 figures, I'll be happy. Once I'm at, you know, double that, I'll be happy.
Carey:I I wanna be happy now. I wanna be happy all of the time and in all of the in between points even as I'm growing. And that's kinda been my approach in life. It's maybe held me back sometimes because I've maybe been too content, but it me makes me happy. And so that's kind of why it's a little bit hard sometimes for me to focus on a goal because it's like, well, I I am happy with what I have.
Carey:Even if nothing changed, I would still be happy. But I'm also someone that constantly wants to grow and learn more. And that's definitely a balance. My brother-in-law once told me he was like, you know, I've never really met anyone like you. You're like this strange combination of a very high amount of potential and a very low amount of ambition.
Carey:But I was like, gotta get
Davina:that on a t shirt.
Carey:That's true. Fucking lord. I mean, it's like, no. I mean, not in a good way. Like, you have potential to do so many things, but you're consciously choosing not to, because you want something else.
Carey:So I was like, well, maybe you should have said it that way the first time, but oh, no. But I think that's kind of the balance I've tried to strike in my life in general and even, you know, my kids are pretty much grown, so I'm kinda done with that. And so now I gotta have something else to to do and focus my efforts at and make better as time goes by, but still also be content wherever I am.
Davina:Yeah. I I find it, interesting too. One of the things oh, when I'm talking with a lot of prospective new clients or women law firm owners, they say, like, a big goal of mine is I have more freedom to travel. And I I I don't see how I can do that with my business the way that it is. And when you and I met, it was something you're like, yeah.
Davina:Well, you know, I travel all the time. I'm always going some place. And, you know, I already have the thing. And I think that's where a lot of people like, you already have some things in place that are really what you're wanting. So then what else do I want?
Davina:But I think tapping into this sort of new challenge is something too. Like, there's an intellectual challenge in all of this saying, well, you know, what if I what if I tap into that little bit of ambition? Employ what I can do with all this potential. Right? Right.
Davina:Did you feel that way when you when we sort of started out?
Carey:Yeah. I mean, I think I was, like, terrible with setting my goals. Because if I set a goal, to me, that is a way of saying that what I have now is not good enough because I need this goal that's something better. And I don't wanna make a judgment on my current situation by putting a goal out there, but it's really hard to do anything if you don't have a goal. So, see, this is where this is where, you know, your greatest strengths or your greatest weaknesses.
Carey:This is where my lack of type a personality is a hindrance to me because there probably are things I would be very capable of achieving that I don't because I'm too afraid to just say, this is my goal and I'm doing it. And that's not a a judgment of what has gone in the past. Mhmm. Because sometimes it can
Davina:kinda feel like it is. But Right. Right. Well, Carrie, I've really enjoyed our conversation today as I've enjoyed every conversation I've had with you. Any last gold nuggets you wanna leave to a woman law firm owner who's kind of on same growth journey, maybe doing it her way a little bit different?
Davina:Any any advice you would have? No.
Carey:I mean, I the advice I always give to everybody is to stay flexible. That's one of my main core values. But the benefit of that is that your goals today may be extremely different from your goals tomorrow. But if you can keep a life and a job and a firm that is flexible and agile and kind of nimble, you'll always be able to do what you want. I mean, that's my advice.
Carey:There's so I mean, there's like, you know, a lot of sub parts to that. But but that's my advice, just to always keep yourself in a position where if you change your mind later, you can change what you're doing. And I think that's kind of the key to contentment because I do change my mind a lot.
Davina:And also that, so I wanna delve into that just a little bit more before we because I'm, I find that interesting. The flexibility to you is really about why is that important? Why is the flexibility important to you? Like, because you change your mind a lot? Because you you feel like it doesn't leave you?
Carey:I mean, you'd probably need to go all the way back to my childhood for me to explain why flexibility is so We
Davina:can go back to your childhood. We have, 2 minutes.
Carey:Listen to it. My childhood I moved around a lot overseas when I was a kid. Things were always changing and that is how I thrive now is with things changing. But if you set up a system that makes it difficult to change, I I don't most maybe not everyone's like this will become discontent. So if I have a law firm or if I have a job that I have to work a certain number of hours, and then I decide, well, wait.
Carey:No. I would like to do this. I would like to take a month long vacation. I would like to completely change for a pass, but you're completely locked in to something else. That inability to pivot and do something different, I think leads to a lot of discontent.
Carey:And so I think it also leads to It's not because I'm changing my mind about, you know, oh, I wanna eat this. No. I wanna eat that. I mean, I just like to change what I'm doing. There are there have been times that I have wanted to work full time, and there's been times that I've wanted to work part time, and there's been times I wanna travel, and times I wanna live here and live there.
Carey:And if you just set up a system that is flexible, you can do whatever you want, even not knowing what you want at the time you set up the system. And you see,
Davina:I think that's very interesting because I had a conversation today with a woman law firm owner who was really struggling to make a decision. It was a hiring decision. And I, and I think one of the things that keeps so many, of us kind of in, paralyzed. Mhmm. Is this idea that if I can't change my mind, like if I do this, it's somehow permanent, it goes to my permanent record.
Davina:Right? It's somehow a permanent thing. And as we were talking through her different hiring options, I'm like, hire this person, interview this person. If it doesn't work out, you can always let them go and they'll go on and and find something else that's better suited to them. And and it's this idea that there's this permanency in our decisions.
Davina:Our decisions carry such huge weight. And really when it comes to business, you have to stay flexible because, you know, you might not find the right person that you wanna hire, you know, at the time.
Carey:Also is like this desire to always do something the best you can. I actually that's another conversation. I don't actually think you need to always do your best. But, because if you're always looking to do your best, then with every decision you assume that one decision is better than the other. And I truly believe that's not always the case.
Carey:Sometimes, either decision is fine. And sometimes those are the hardest decisions to make because if both options are fine, it's really hard to decide which is better because one is not better. You just have to go with 1. But a lot of times I see people get paralyzed because it's like, one of these decisions is better and I can't figure out which one. So now I'm paralyzed.
Carey:I'm kinda like, I'm pretty good at making decisions. If I can't tell which one is better, they're probably even. I'll just flip a coin. And that's how I actually picked my lost, but
Davina:I can't always go. You can always ask how you pick one.
Carey:That's how I picked my law school. I flipped a coin. Good. But it was, you know, it was between Harvard, which I would have to have paid for completely, and a great law school that I would not have had to pay anything for. And those honestly were 2 even choices.
Carey:Both of those would have been fine, but a lot of people would agonize over that. Which should I pay for Harvard or should I go free here? And I just was like, no. These are I can't make the decision. That means they're probably both equal.
Carey:And so I flipped it more.
Davina:That's a wonderful philosophy. That's great advice. And we'll wrap it up on that note. I appreciate you being here and talking with me today. I've enjoyed it a lot.
Carey:Thank you for having me. I appreciate being here.
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