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Mainstream mental health is flawed and I’m pulling back the curtain.
I’m Andrea Clark, a former family therapist, who walked away from the system to expose the truth. After my own journey from medication maze to holistic healing, I’m here to challenge the status quo and reveal the mental health truths most people don’t know.
”The Truth About Mental Health” is your radical roadmap to wellness. Raw stories, expert insights, breakthrough solutions – this is where traditional modalities end and real healing begins.
Andrea Clark (00:00)
Hi Dr. Tara, I'm so excited you're here.
Tara Rawana (00:03)
Hi, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Andrea Clark (00:07)
Absolutely, so I'm really pumped to take a deep dive into this conversation around young ladies experiences during puberty. talking about this in a way that also will empower parents, specifically moms, right? Because a lot of times it's the female caregiver who's supporting their child through this.
Tara Rawana (00:18)
Hmm.
Andrea Clark (00:31)
empowering them with information to help them engage with their blossoming young lady in a way that really is going to create a foundation of more like confidence in them versus shame. then I'm really excited for us to also talk about the intersection of
Tara Rawana (00:44)
Thank
Absolutely.
Andrea Clark (00:54)
like social media and conversations with their girlfriends because I have an 11 year old and some of the stuff that she comes home, she doesn't even have social media or a phone yet, but the stuff she tells me that her girlfriends are talking to her about is wild because it's stuff that I didn't get exposed to until like mid to late high school.
Tara Rawana (00:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (01:15)
Yes. And so I'm so excited for this conversation. So before we dive into that piece, just tell us a little bit about like what led you to being so passionate about this particular topic because it is very specific, right?
Tara Rawana (01:19)
Me too. Me too.
It is very specific. Yes. So, okay, we'll go back in time. when I was pursuing my doctorate degree, I co-founded a company called All About Mental Empowerment. we go into schools and we do talks about mental health. So, we've worked with over 100 schools in the Greater Toronto Area.
I was still in school at the time, so I was loving doing these workshops and I was still trying to figure out exactly where I was most passionate about health. And I started to notice that as we did these workshops, and back in the day, there was one workshop that we did where in the middle of it, we would have all the kids stand up and we would do like a little dance break. And it was really interesting because I noticed that from kindergarten to around
Andrea Clark (02:10)
Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (02:17)
grade three-ish, the kids right away, they would stand up, they'd start dancing, no shame, nothing. But as soon, and especially girls, as soon as they would get to around grade four, grade five, like close to that middle school age, right when puberty was actually starting, they would stand up, but they would look around at their peers. And they would, like you could almost see it. They'd be like, is this cool? Is this okay? Is this what we're doing? And it was...
Andrea Clark (02:36)
Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (02:44)
It was such an eye-opening moment for me. I really realized, okay, that's a critical time when girls are starting to develop confidence, when they're really taking a lot of cues from their peers. And then I just got really passionate about this specific age and developmentally what was going on. And then that just really blossomed and I created a mom and tween daughter puberty education program.
I now do a ton of education all about puberty and I absolutely love it. It just lights me up. It's such an important time in a girl's life and it's also such a critical time between the mom and the daughter or the parent and the daughter to build a really solid relationship. So I've just become incredibly passionate about
Andrea Clark (03:19)
is
Yes.
I'm so excited you're doing this. It's such a need in the world and the content that you share is incredible. ⁓ Okay, tell us, let's first talk about what young ladies experience when they're going through puberty, especially in today's day and age, but just in general, the process of puberty and developing.
Tara Rawana (03:37)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Andrea Clark (03:54)
Can you educate us a little bit about that?
Tara Rawana (03:56)
Yeah, absolutely. So what a lot of parents don't realize is that there's actually five stages of puberty. I think so often when we think about girls going through puberty, we just think about getting her first period, right? That's kind of the focal point for female puberty, but that actually happens in stage four of puberty, four of five. So there's actually a lot that happens before her first period. So what we know is that even as soon as stage one, which
often starts around eight years old. That's when mood changes really begin for girls. There's big changes in their brain happening, there's hormonal changes. And so I really encourage parents to let's work all the way backwards to stage one or even stage two. Stage two is when we first start to see the physical changes. So breast spuds are often the first physical change of puberty. But there's so much that we can do to support girls.
well before her first period, right? Let's start talking about mood changes. Let's help her identify her emotions, her thoughts, come up with really solid coping strategies, because all of that is going to be so helpful as she progresses through puberty. Those are real life skills, right? And so much of that changes during puberty. There's such an opportunity to...
dive into all of those, especially those invisible pieces, because often that's harder for us to talk about the mental health side of it.
Andrea Clark (05:24)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, when she turned around about eight, she was having these massive shifts in mood. I was like, okay. And there's other surrounding, you know, I'm divorced, right? So she has visitation with her dad and you know, so I'm like, is that, I'm like, no, I we've been doing that for a long time. And so I decided to Google it. And.
Tara Rawana (05:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, as we do.
Andrea Clark (05:51)
And they
taught, they speak about it a little bit, this term of like, I can't remember exactly how they phrased it, but it's like these hormone surges, it's like pre puberty mood shifts and hormone surges. And I was so glad that there was some sort of information about that. And they're like, yeah, that's really common when your daughter is like eight, nine years old. And that really helped me to
Tara Rawana (06:03)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (06:16)
help her understand because part she was feeling she's pretty aware because I'm a retired there. We have a lot of language talk that not every family has and so she's like I'm feeling weird and I feel like I can't control myself and I don't know why I feel like that you know and so then I was able to share that with her and just more help her co-regulate right and through co-regulating with her now she is more and more learning how to self-regulate.
Tara Rawana (06:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Andrea Clark (06:46)
And so that was really cool. That was a very powerful thing for me. And also looking back, I'm like, wow, maybe that's some of what I was going through and my mom had no clue, right? Yeah.
Tara Rawana (06:55)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yeah. And I think, you know, when parents don't have a clue, it's so easy to say, stop being so emotional, or why are you acting like this, right? And that creates so much disconnection in that moment, because it's just like you said, like...
Andrea Clark (07:07)
Yeah.
because
Tara Rawana (07:14)
these girls are like, what's going on with me? Like they are confused too, just like we are about how their moods and hormones are shifting. And so it's such an important moment of connection, even just saying, that's actually normal. That's part of puberty. That's part of growing up. Let's talk about that. Like that creates so much trust in the relationship. It's so important.
Andrea Clark (07:16)
Totally.
Absolutely, yeah.
And it has set the framework for these other stages where she's having a lot of feelings and thoughts and even criticisms at times about what her body has been looking like in transition. And she feels safe to voice those things. Yeah, okay, sorry. So what's phase two?
Tara Rawana (07:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
amazing.
Love it. So stage two puberty, that's when the physical changes begin. So stage one is very much invisible. It's really just the mood changes that we start to see. And then when we get into stage two, so for 85 % of girls, the first physical sign of puberty is the development of breast buds. And then for the other 15 % of girls, it's pubic hair. So
Andrea Clark (08:09)
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (08:25)
Those are the changes, the big physical changes that happen in stage two of puberty. And we still see those mood changes as well. Another thing that we see around stage two is that a girl's circadian rhythm starts to shift. And I see this, I also have a private practice and I see this a lot with my patients where girls now all of a sudden they're like, I'm not hungry in the morning. I don't wanna eat breakfast. I'm just not hungry. Or I'm not tired at 9 p.m. anymore. And that...
is all developmentally normal. Their sleeping and wake cycles really shift, and appetite shifts along with that. So I think that's also something that parents really don't realize, but it's an important piece of the puzzle. And that, yeah, go ahead.
Andrea Clark (08:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I didn't think that that was related to puberty. Very interesting.
Tara Rawana (09:11)
Hmm. Yeah,
super interesting. And then in stage three, so the breast changes and the pubic hair, those continue to change and evolve for all of the stages of puberty after starting in stage two. And then in stage three, one of the big changes that we see is vaginal discharge. And this is something that I feel like no one is talking about.
And I even remember myself when I was going through puberty and I first noticed discharge, I thought I had an infection. I thought something was really wrong. And my mom and I never talked about puberty. I didn't really feel like I could go to her with questions about my body. And so I was like, okay, I have an infection and I guess I'm just living like this forever. I had no idea. And it wasn't, yeah, it did. And I felt insecure about it.
Andrea Clark (09:58)
Did it give you anxiety?
Tara Rawana (10:06)
It wasn't until a peer of mine, we were all at a sleepover and really quietly in the dark, she's like, has anyone else ever noticed this? And I know, it's so, so brave. And I like all the weight lifted off my shoulders in that moment, right? Like, no.
Andrea Clark (10:16)
Aww, she's so brave to say that to her girlfriend.
Yeah, that just made me feel
like, yeah, yeah.
Tara Rawana (10:28)
Yeah,
right? And I think that's such a big piece of it for girls is they really feel like they're the only one with all of these changes, and especially those invisible changes, right? Largely, vaginal discharge is an invisible change that happens during puberty. No one's talking about it, right? And so I just think it's so important for parents to
Andrea Clark (10:37)
Yes.
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (10:53)
acknowledge that. And a lot of parents are seeing that, right? Like they see it in the laundry when they're washing clothes, but actually speaking to it and letting girls know, this is normal, this is healthy, this is okay. And another reason for that is what we know is that when a girl develops vaginal discharge, on average, it's about six months to a year until her first period. So once a parent sees that,
Andrea Clark (11:17)
Hmm.
Tara Rawana (11:20)
That can be the catalyst for really good conversation about getting her first period, which we see in stage four. So that can just really open the door, right? We can create that trust about these changes that are happening and then start to educate her about her first period, which is of course a huge change that happens during puberty.
Andrea Clark (11:39)
Yeah,
absolutely. Okay, and then is the fifth stage just like life as a woman? Am I in stage five still?
Tara Rawana (11:47)
Pretty much,
Well, what's interesting is that what a lot of girls and moms don't realize is that stage five can actually go into the middle of the teenage years, even for some girls up until 20 years old. it's like puberty is actually quite long, right? Depending on when a girl starts and how things progress. But I think it's so important that we talk about stage five too, because
Andrea Clark (12:03)
you
Tara Rawana (12:15)
What we see in stage five for some girls and women, they'll develop pubic hair that reaches their inner thighs and often and even hair outside of their nipple, like around the areola. And a lot of the time that doesn't happen until stage five when girls are teenagers or almost 20 years old. And so what I see is that often girls will think, there must be something wrong with my hormones as a teenager or getting close to 20 years old. I didn't realize
that it was normal, right, for pubic hair to spread in that way or to have hair outside of the nipple. So I think even just conversations about that, about the changes they may notice, you know, five years after starting puberty, really important conversations as well.
Andrea Clark (13:00)
Absolutely.
So let's talk about how girls feel, like the emotions associated with these different stages and things that you've observed coming up for young women. I know my daughter, there's been a lot of, a little bit of shame.
Tara Rawana (13:20)
Mm.
Andrea Clark (13:20)
for her, like she feels shame. I've noticed her posture shifting as her breasts continue to grow. Like she's hunching more and hiding, like trying to hide. And we're very open in our home. Like we've talked, you know, she asked me, what is this stuff coming out of my vagina? Like we're very open. There's no shame. Like she feels very comfortable with.
Tara Rawana (13:23)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Andrea Clark (13:44)
up with me and in her home talking about these things. But I know in the world, it's different, right? Your body's changing and your and you know, she's been very vocal about the like the awkward stages, right? Between budding and the develop like it because your body in your mind looks weird, right? Like, don't quite look like the ladies in the magazine and you don't look like a little girl anymore. I'm wondering if this is pretty common, like these conversations are like what comes up
Tara Rawana (14:02)
you
Yes.
Andrea Clark (14:12)
And how can caregivers support these young ladies in not feeling weird and knowing that this is normal and like part of the process?
Tara Rawana (14:16)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yep. And I see this all the time, right? And a whole range of emotions come up when it comes to puberty. And you're right, it's a strange transition, right? You're not a fully developed woman, but you're not a little girl. So where does that place you? And what is your role? And you mentioned social media at the beginning, and I think that's a big part of this, right? Is that these...
11, 12 year old girls compare themselves to the 20 year old Instagram models that they see and they think that, you know, well, I'm not beautiful or I'm not this or that, right? And that can be really challenging, that comparison. And I think that, you know, the mom and daughter program that I currently run, I have a few versions of it, but I run one that is a group program. And so it's girls and their moms together.
I have found that to be for the girls so...
For the moms healing, but for the girls just so normalizing of their experience because every girl feels a little bit of shame going through this phase of life. And even I asked the girls, how do you feel about getting your first period? And every girl says nervous and icky. Those are their feelings, icky and nervous. And I think that when they can all sit together and acknowledge that and just have a space to share that.
Andrea Clark (15:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (15:48)
it really helps with the shame because they're all feeling the exact same way, but they all feel like it is such an individual experience. And even sometimes hearing, like I had one girl share once that she was the shortest in the class and she felt so insecure and she would always look up to the taller girls and think that they're so cool. And then another girl, she was like, wow.
Andrea Clark (15:57)
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (16:13)
I've always been the tallest in my class and I've always wished that I was shorter. I always wished that I was like the short girls in the class. And it was just such a humanizing moment for those two girls. They were both like, huh, right? And it's like they're having the same experience just on opposite ends of the height spectrum. But it's all part of it and it's all normal. And I think just
Andrea Clark (16:25)
Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (16:39)
starting these conversations with girls, even the fact that your daughter can say, I'm feeling a little shame about this, that is healing in and of itself for her to be able to share that, right? I think about my experience and I felt so much shame, but I felt like I couldn't voice that, right? And so just being able to have the girls articulate how they're feeling and for that to be met with, yeah.
Andrea Clark (16:49)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Tara Rawana (17:05)
puberty can be a really tough time. I can understand why you feel like that, right? Like the validation piece, that's so important, right? It's like, I see you, I hear you, you're not alone in how you're feeling. And I think because it's part of it, right? All of the big feelings going through puberty, it's all part of it. But when we can voice that with people who love these girls, it's so powerful and it can really help them feel less alone.
Andrea Clark (17:11)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Okay, so I am curious about this. Does this come up in your program or maybe in private conversations? What about the piece about like sexuality and arousal and more urges to touch themselves and explore their body and things feeling good and feeling warm down there when certain things, when they're stimulated by certain things they see or you know what I mean?
Tara Rawana (17:44)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (17:57)
because that, my daughter's gonna kill me for saying this, but that is a conversation that we've had that I've like normalized. Like this is a part of developing and growing up and you know, it's totally human and normal, but she definitely has felt like shame and weird about it.
Tara Rawana (18:03)
you
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, no, it is such a part of it. It's not something that I have gotten into in my programs, but it is somewhere that I want to get into next. I think you're right, it is a really important conversation. And yeah, I'm figuring out how to support families through that and start those conversations.
Andrea Clark (18:31)
Hmm.
Yeah, I understand
people have different comfort levels with different things. You know, it's interesting, like I personally just I grew up in a home where we never spoke about anything. And I was left to figure things out on my own. I felt very unsupported and just I learned a lot of things from my friends and I look back and I'm like, yeah, there's a lot of choices I made in my life because
Tara Rawana (18:56)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (19:02)
I didn't get to have those types of conversations with a parent. And so I adopted the philosophy very early that like nothing's off the table. know, she can ask any questions she wants. She'll never get criticized or ashamed for it. And obviously not everybody starts out that way as a parent, right? Like I just happened to, but what that has allowed is, I mean, she will ask me,
stuff that I think, man, I would never ever have had the guts to ask my mom because what if my mom would have rejected me or shamed me or just, you know, not wanted to talk about it. And so I feel really thankful because we can have a lot of open conversations about these things and I get to be the first person to speak into these things.
Tara Rawana (19:31)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (19:53)
as well,
which I think is really important for parents to understand that if you're not opening the door, then they're trying to figure it out from somewhere else. And the other place where they might hear about it is might not be things that you want them to be influenced by. Like she comes home and asks me, what does this mean? What does that mean? Cause she hears a lot from her friends. And a lot of times they, they think it's something that it's not. And I'm like, no, it's actually this. And she's always so glad she asked, you know,
Tara Rawana (20:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (20:22)
And I'm so glad she asked. Yeah, and I think that's just so important too for parents to understand.
Tara Rawana (20:23)
Yeah, yeah, no, it's so important. Yeah.
Yeah, it is so important. And I always say to parents, let it be awkward. Like, that's fine. Like, let it be awkward. And especially in this day and age, she comes to you, or she goes to the internet or TikTok or chat to BT or her peers, right? Let it be you. Let it be weird. Let it be awkward.
Andrea Clark (20:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (20:53)
figure it out together, right? Like we want to be the person that she comes to because you are the best source. And there's going, and I always say that, you the questions about, let's say sex, for example, that trust starts when she's eight by talking about, I understand that you're having big feelings. It's okay to feel like that. Let's talk about it. And, I see you're developing breast buds. That's totally normal. Let's go pick out a bra together.
you're getting your period soon. Let's talk about that. That builds the foundation for her to ask you about all of the things that you ultimately really do want her to come to you about when she's in her teenage years. That foundation actually starts early in puberty.
Andrea Clark (21:39)
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And I think too, I mean, obviously your program's amazing and people should be in your program. But sometimes it's as simple as getting a book like and working through a book together. I mean, we got her a book very early on because she wasn't going to be in my home all the time. She was going to be with her dad. And so I wanted her to understand her body and safe touch and
Tara Rawana (21:52)
Yep,
Andrea Clark (22:04)
You know, so we've had books from very early on about the body and, and, you know, how babies are made and all of these things. And so before I found you, I did what I know to do. And I got a, I got a puberty book and started working through it together. You know what I mean? And, and it's crazy because I actually have a lot of, like, I lack a lot of memories around going through puberty. And I think it's because of trauma.
Tara Rawana (22:19)
Yeah, I love it.
Yep.
Andrea Clark (22:31)
And so I felt very ill-quit. And I was concerned because I'm like, I don't even remember going to the dressing room and picking out my first bra with my mom. don't, like, I'm assuming she took me, but I don't know, you know? And I don't remember what that feels like or if I felt weird or embarrassed or any of those things. And so I'm like, okay, I need a tool to help me support her in this area, you know? Yeah.
Tara Rawana (22:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Absolutely, yep.
Absolutely, yep. And I love that you went through it with her. Like what I say to parents is don't just hand her the book and leave it in her room one day, never talk about it again, right? Like let it be the thing that starts the conversation, but make sure that you continue it because she will have questions about what she's reading in the book, right? So going through it together, being like, okay, let's...
Maybe, you know, and every, what I always say to you is that it really depends on the child. There's many girls, right, who are, they want to know all the things. They're curious about their bodies. They want to know how all the things function and work. And then there's other girls who are like, don't even talk to me about, like, I don't want to hear a thing, right? Yeah.
Andrea Clark (23:30)
Yeah, totally.
Ha ha, yeah, do not bring that word up to me. my
gosh, you're so cringe.
Tara Rawana (23:48)
Absolutely. Like there's a whole spectrum, right? And we have to, and that's where every child is different, right? Like you might have two daughters and they're just total opposite ends of the spectrum. And so, you know, I think with the girls who are really open, it's easier to obviously start those conversations, but with the girls who want nothing to do with it, it's still important that we reach them, right? So that's where, you know, putting a book in her room, maybe like with a note on it that says like,
Andrea Clark (24:17)
Yes.
Tara Rawana (24:18)
through
this and then we can talk about it come to me with questions. Something else that I really like for the girls who aren't too open about these things is having a shared journal between you and your daughter and so she can write yeah she can write any questions that she has about her body and then you can write back and that can be the way that you communicate this information so that there's a channel but it's not a verbal channel that maybe she's uncomfortable with.
Andrea Clark (24:44)
Yes.
Yes, I find in the beginning of this process, like I lay down with my daughter at night and we like, you know, we chit chat and sing and pray and stuff like that. And I found in the beginning of this process that she would ask the questions then and it would be darker in the room. And like a lot of times we wouldn't be making eye contact, like I'd be snuggling with her. So it was like, it felt safer to ask without.
Tara Rawana (25:05)
Thank
Andrea Clark (25:13)
having to look me in the face, right? See if I react or anything like that. And it felt even like it was helpful for me in the beginning because then she could, not that I reacted, but I didn't feel this pressure of like having a certain face on for it or you know what I mean? And then over time that built more trust and now she'll just come into my room and say, hey, this is going on. What's the deal or whatever with my body or whatever.
Tara Rawana (25:35)
Thank
Andrea Clark (25:39)
That was really helpful. And I think just knowing, you know, working with families for as long as I did and being a teen myself, just knowing the door is open is a really big deal. If you feel like the door is closed, that's when you feel alone. But if you know that your parent is there or your caregiver is there, even if you don't want to talk about something, but you know that you could if you needed to,
Tara Rawana (25:51)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (26:05)
and that they're not gonna be weird with you. Weird meaning like shame you or that's like a huge thing in a young person's life to not feel alone, to know like it's there if I need it. Like my parents there if I need them.
Tara Rawana (26:20)
Absolutely. It's so true. And that's really what it comes down to, right? Is showing her that you can show up, right? And often that means going first, right? Starting the awkward conversation to let her know that nothing's off the table and that you can always ask any questions. And I love the like cuddling at night. It's so true. Another recommendation that I often give is have these conversations in the car where you don't have
Andrea Clark (26:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Tara Rawana (26:48)
It really does help. It's powerful. Yeah.
Andrea Clark (26:50)
It does.
It does a lot actually. I didn't even think of that because we do have a lot of deep conversations in the car because I'm looking ahead, right? I'm not looking at her. It's like less pressure. Yeah, that's good.
Tara Rawana (26:57)
Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah. And even
just when you were mentioning that about like your facial reactions and all of that, I think that, you know, parents processing their own feelings about their experience going through puberty is such a big piece of it, right? I think, and like you shared a little bit, a lot of us did not have great experiences going through puberty and navigating that time of our life, right? And so,
Andrea Clark (27:25)
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (27:30)
I always encourage parents to reflect on all of this, right? Like what myths or stigma do you hold or have about this phase of life? Like let's talk about that, let's process that, let's work through that so that we can create a really intentional experience for this next generation. Because there are a lot of myths out there, right? And even when it comes to mental health, like the stigma piece is huge, right?
How many of us grew up actually talking about mental health? So few, right? Like it was so taboo. So taboo, right? And so there is a lot of learning that is part of this process, right? Learning even as adults, okay, how do I even talk about feelings? How do I even notice the feelings that I'm having to educate my daughter on this, right? There is a lot of...
Andrea Clark (28:02)
100%. Yes.
Tara Rawana (28:23)
processing and unlearning and relearning and all of it that is so much a part of this. And even another piece too that I talk to parents about is there might be some grief there for you, right? That your daughter's growing up. that's a piece of the group, right? And acknowledging that and not making ourselves bad or wrong for that. You're allowed to feel that.
Andrea Clark (28:35)
was just gonna say that. Yes. So much grief right now. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (28:48)
Like you birthed this beautiful little girl, right? And she's growing up and parts of that can be challenging and that's all okay.
Andrea Clark (28:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there can be such a grief process. Like I'm going through it currently. Where, just she's changing so much and not in a bad way, but in a different way than, right? And I think, you you did a post, I think in the last week about this, commenting, I think on this change where it's like, they go from this, your precious little sweet little girl. I'm botching what you said, but.
Tara Rawana (29:03)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Mm.
Andrea Clark (29:25)
to this maybe somebody with an attitude or whatever. And I mean, she is such a touchy feely person and she doesn't want to be touched as much and she and you know, my little girl is not a little girl anymore. And I'm working really hard not to make any kind of commentary about that, right. And we have made a couple of little like jokes where we're like, she's a tween and
Tara Rawana (29:30)
you
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Andrea Clark (29:52)
And I spoke with my husband, like, we need to be really mindful because we don't want to make that like, she's bad or, you know, shaming her for not being this little girl anymore, or, you know, like, because it's uncomfortable for us to go through this process, right? ⁓ But it's hard sometimes because you do, as a parent, feel like, my gosh, where did my sweet little person go?
Tara Rawana (30:08)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Andrea Clark (30:20)
And
also though, like, you know, that's not their purpose, right? Is to be our sweet little kids. But it is a hard, it is a hard transition. I feel at least for parents, for me, it's been a hard transition that I've been trying to figure out how to work through without, you know, saying comments about it or that it's not for her to carry that I'm struggling with her transition because she's carrying her own.
Tara Rawana (30:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (30:46)
struggles or transition, you know? And I think that that's just really important for parents to understand. And so I have other outlets that I, you know, I have mom friends who I'm talking to and my spouse and I lean on each other and I'm educating myself and I'm letting myself grieve in private and things like that. ⁓ Because it's a rite of passage for me too, as the mom, right?
Tara Rawana (30:48)
⁓ Yeah,
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Yeah. And you are
not alone in feeling like that. That is such a common experience. And I think, I think even us talking about this and naming this is going to be very helpful for the parents listening who are maybe noticing that they're having feelings, but they aren't sure exactly what it is, right? I think that that is really powerful. And even in this new phase,
often what I tell parents too is to find new ways to connect, right? Like talking with her and okay, maybe she doesn't want to play dolls together anymore. Maybe she wants to do a Starbucks date for the two of you, right? Like there's new ways to connect and new ways to grow that relationship. And as she is changing and as she is seeking more independence and
Andrea Clark (31:44)
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (32:05)
and figuring out who she is, right? And that's what's actually so beautiful and that I love about this age group is that they're really figuring out who they are, right? And that's so, it's so special. They develop their values at this age, their confidence grows at this age. Like there's so much changing during this phase of life. it's how beautiful that we get to bear witness to that. And we get to...
Andrea Clark (32:16)
Thanks.
Tara Rawana (32:32)
lead her through this time of her life where she's really becoming her own person. It's so hard and so magical.
Andrea Clark (32:37)
Yeah, it is.
It is really magical. I have you know, it's interesting. Because it's almost like and I could be wrong. Maybe you you have some stats or you can explain this. But it's like, we went from being very forward facing all the time, like facing each other in our relationship to we're in this period of like, we still connect and talk.
Tara Rawana (32:56)
Hmm.
Andrea Clark (33:02)
but she wants a lot more side by side, almost like as a buffer to do the connecting. Does that make sense? Like you said a Starbucks date or we'll go thrifting or, you know, she even wants to watch shows together, which of course in my mind I'm like, we're not connecting, but for her that's connection right now. And trying to force my ideas of what.
Tara Rawana (33:08)
Mmm. ⁓
Andrea Clark (33:26)
true connection is, is like, I'm really loosening the reins and being more open to, yeah, sure, let's go thrifting because inevitably in the car and while we're that we're going to talk about, you know what I mean? And I just, it's like letting her connect in the ways that are making her feel comfortable because she's feels weird right now in her life. Like she just feels awkward and there's so much going on. And it's sometimes it's too intense to connect like face to face all the time right now. Like we used to when she was like,
Tara Rawana (33:27)
Mm.
Andrea Clark (33:54)
Five, you know, or whatever.
Tara Rawana (33:56)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even that what we know about this age too, is as the brain is changing and hormones are getting involved, this is really when social comparison and social awareness really starts and is sort of at that all time high at this age. And so they are just so aware of everything. And
Andrea Clark (34:11)
Yes.
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (34:20)
they're so in their head, they're so... It's such a delicate time, right? Where they think nobody likes them and everything's going wrong and they're making all the wrong decisions and everything, right? Like it's such a new feeling for them. And for so many girls, it is so overwhelming. And so connection really, really does look different. And I love that you're embracing that.
Andrea Clark (34:36)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (34:45)
And I think that sometimes what happens is parents are, they struggle to embrace that new reality of how she wants to connect in a different way. And I think that can be part of the grief too, which is totally allowed, right? That's so valid. But I love that you're letting her take the lead in some ways, right? And being so adaptable to how she wants to connect and move through this. And that's such a great way to stay close while she's still
Andrea Clark (34:57)
Yes.
Hmm.
Tara Rawana (35:14)
explores her independence and the ways that she's growing and changing.
Andrea Clark (35:19)
Well, number one, I want her to be able to look back and feel as positive as she can about this time in her life, right? I mean, and supported, but also I think parents get short-sighted about the long-term impact or outcome of how you engage with them through these different phases of their life. And if you don't create safety and if you...
Tara Rawana (35:26)
Yeah, absolutely.
Andrea Clark (35:43)
And if you don't, and this isn't about perfection, because I've messed up like many times in all the stages, right? And had to repair. But if you don't create safety and give them some space to have autonomy and all these things, then you aren't going to have that friendship that can exist, especially between moms and daughters later on. so
Tara Rawana (35:47)
Totally. Yep. ⁓
Andrea Clark (36:09)
I always hold some priorities for right now, for what she needs right now, but I'm nurturing a relationship that I want to be very healthy and connected for the rest of her life. And so I try to think about that because I struggle with my relationship with my mom. And part of it is because of...
Tara Rawana (36:21)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (36:31)
you know, she did the best she could, right? But part of it is because of the lack of connection and my ability to come to her with it, like, I just don't feel comfortable, like, and safe, right? And so you're, creating like a runway for the future too. And there's a lot of relationships between mothers and daughters specifically that are so beautiful and magical.
Tara Rawana (36:43)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (36:57)
And I want her to know that I'll be here for her every single stage of her life. And you set that tone, like you said, very early on. And I don't, you know, it's not about being perfect. It's just about trying to be connected and accepting and open, you know?
Tara Rawana (37:02)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And like, let it be messy, right? Like make all the mistakes. That's how you know you're trying, right? Make the mistakes and then repair. And that teaches her to something that I love talking to girls about is perfectionism because I find that at this age, it's such a big, it holds them back a lot. And they're so in their head about needing to be perfect and all of that. And what a great example.
Andrea Clark (37:24)
Yes.
I'll leave that to us.
Tara Rawana (37:44)
we can give by messing up, right? Like getting it wrong and then coming back and being like, I'm really sorry I lost my temper there. That wasn't cool. I'm sorry. I wish I responded like this. Can we try again? Right? Like showing her that repair is so helpful for her own emotional regulation and the way that she repairs relationships because she will get it wrong too. We're all just human. It's never ever about perfection.
Andrea Clark (37:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, totally.
Can we talk a little bit about this influence of the digital age on puberty, but also how girls are experiencing puberty in themselves and their self-concept, how this is affecting their self-concept?
Tara Rawana (38:30)
Mm-hmm, yes. It's so challenging. it's, so that mental health business that I own, that we work in schools, this is a big conversation that we have in schools with kids, is social media, mental health, the intersection of all of that. it's, you know, in so many ways, it's still, it's so new that it is challenging to navigate, right? And...
Andrea Clark (38:54)
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (38:54)
a big conversation that we have in schools when we do parent workshops is when is the right time, right, to give kids access? And it's hard to know. It's really hard to know. And something that I always tell parents is that once we give kids access to social media, we can't really control what they see. There's so much adult content on these apps, right?
Andrea Clark (39:18)
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (39:19)
We can try to filter things and block hashtags and pair our accounts and we can do all the things, but at the end of the day, these are adult apps. And I think that that's important for parents to really understand and to think through with their kids. Something that I talk to parents about when they're considering giving their child access to social media is I like to encourage them to treat
social media the same way that we treat getting a driver's license. So have to prove that you can be safe, that you understand the rules, and that you know to a certain degree what to do if something goes wrong, right? The same way that you have to know all those things before you get access to being out on the road. And the same can go with social media, right? Have your child sit down and tell you about Snapchat and some of the dangers so that
Andrea Clark (39:50)
Thank you.
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (40:15)
you understand that they understand the risks because there are a lot, right? And they understand what is inappropriate content and what to do if something feels unsafe or if they have questions, they know that they can come to you, they know what happens next. So I think having those conversations are really, important. And I think the confidence piece is really tough when it comes to social media.
Andrea Clark (40:42)
Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (40:43)
And something that we talk a lot about in schools is AI, right? And not just chat GBT, but there's AI models on. It's wild. It's wild. We show a clip to kids and it's these two girls like dancing to like a viral sound. And they're like giggling and I'm like, well, the reason I showed you that is because neither of those girls are real people. They're AI.
Andrea Clark (40:50)
Yes, it's wild!
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (41:09)
and all the kids, what, no way. But, you know, like they're these perfect looking, you know, very mature looking teenagers and they're entirely fake, right? But what is that doing to confidence, right? Kids confidence. It's so tough to navigate. And I think, you know, time limits are really, really important. We've even, there's a lot of research out there showing that I think
Okay, I don't know the exact statistics off the top of my head, but I think it's like teenagers that spend more than six hours a day on social media, and the average that teenagers are spending is nine hours a day. So six hours or more, yeah, increases their risk of being diagnosed with anxiety or depression by something like 80%. It's huge, right? It's huge. was. Yep, yep.
Andrea Clark (42:00)
It makes sense because you know, I have a digital business and so do you and
navigating that the last six years just in general as a woman or as a person, I've had my own challenges where I've had to really be like, Andrea, you need boundaries. these things are influencing you and your thoughts and your feelings and your this, right? I mean, I'm an adult who can do that. Right? This is incredible. This is, and you know, the other thing is that
Tara Rawana (42:16)
Mm-hmm.
I know.
Andrea Clark (42:29)
children are being primed earlier because if they have access to Roblox or YouTube kids, ⁓ YouTube, their friends have access to stuff and they come to school and talk about it. I mean, this is even before you have like a tween or a teen who's asking for social media. Like she's always had an iPad because for a long time her dad didn't live in state and
Tara Rawana (42:39)
Thank you.
Okay.
Andrea Clark (42:56)
we, know, slowly over time it became, she was allowed to watch YouTube kids or, and all that stuff has things embedded in it, right? Like visuals and stories and clips and that are still, you know, making them feel like they should look like this or act like this or, you know, be like this or,
And so it's starting even earlier, even before social media, right? So these are things to think about. mean, there's stuff in Roblox that there's different like rooms or games or whatever you can go into that are very mature and you're being exposed to stuff very early on. so, I mean, it's everywhere. It's prevalent everywhere, you know? Yeah.
Tara Rawana (43:25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yes.
everywhere.
Andrea Clark (43:47)
and it's
shaping their self-concept very early on. But I do think that it's when you have things like puberty going on and social media, it's like gasoline to a fire, right?
Tara Rawana (43:51)
Yes.
It really is, it really is. It's so complicated and you're right. I've talked to grade one teachers and they're on social media. The kids like, yeah. It's like one kid, their older brother, they have access to his account, right? then they show their peers. It's so embedded in
Andrea Clark (44:15)
in first grade this is why
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (44:29)
our life and it's part of our reality now. And I think it even goes back to, this isn't a full solution, but having a good connected relationship with your kids, right? And something that we see in the research is that kids are really, especially at this age, they just want to belong. They just want to feel like they matter.
Andrea Clark (44:32)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (44:54)
And
so the more that we can create a culture of belongingness at home, it is protective against social media addiction because if they don't feel like there's anywhere that they really belong, it's very easy to seek to find that online in chat rooms. Unfortunately, it's easy to find that if you go looking for that on the internet, but it's not helped often.
Andrea Clark (45:17)
Well, it's not,
and this is a thing, that's something I did as a young person who felt very disconnected and like I didn't belong in my home just because there was never any connection. But I did it in, like there wasn't social media at the time, right? my gosh, it would be wild if there was when I was growing up. Like I did it by seeking out certain people in social groups.
Tara Rawana (45:34)
Thank
So, I agree.
and
Andrea Clark (45:44)
and doing certain unhealthy high risk activities and running with certain groups of people, it's the same thing, but it's just some of the dangers with social media are you don't always know who you're talking to and how it shapes your brain and your psyche and your sense of self is it's like exponentially more intense because of the way our brains work with screens and
Tara Rawana (46:04)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (46:11)
visuals and right and so That's where the concern is and it's it's interesting. I our situation is interesting because we now do 50-50 like her dad's moved here over the last couple years and Their house is more disconnected like there's a lot of stuff going on. She has a little sister. He works from home You know, he's caregiving for his mom. And so they really live more in a
like how we grew up where it was like everybody was home, but they were all doing their own things. Right? I don't know if you grew up that way. But you know that they talk about that concept a lot. That's really what his house looks like. And he's doing the best he can. There's you know, it is what it is. But that's what his house looks like. And she is on her iPad way more. Whereas here, we let her have iPad time because she gets on with her her best friend and they're you know, talking at whatever. But we've got this running joke.
Tara Rawana (46:42)
No? Absolutely.
Right.
Andrea Clark (47:05)
Okay, we're doing forced connection time, forced family time. And she'll be like, then when we do it, she's like, no, I mean, like, I'm glad we did this, you know, like we played clue. you know, like dinner time is all devices are gone. And like, we are having dinner, even if we're sitting together quietly, we're having dinner together as a family, right? So there's like, there's moments where we are creating and cultivating
Tara Rawana (47:07)
Yeah.
Yes.
Andrea Clark (47:33)
connection so that she doesn't want to just hide all the time to get connection somewhere else. Like we're providing the connection and sometimes she wants to talk about things I really don't care about, but it doesn't matter. I'm going to listen, you know, I want her to connect. I want her to feel connected to us and to people face to face versus
Tara Rawana (47:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Clark (47:57)
only her friends in some hidden chat or something, right? Type of thing. And so part of it is like, letting go of what that like always looks like. And that's something that I had to learn as a parent is it's not going to always look like and feel like the way I want it to look and feel. And like, I just have to be okay with that. Because I rather her connect, right?
Tara Rawana (48:01)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's.
Andrea Clark (48:22)
and talk and share
and just us being each other's presence.
Tara Rawana (48:26)
Yeah, absolutely. Yep. And I love what you were saying about like the games and stuff. even like I always encourage parents to like, come up with some like predictable rituals or things that you do as a family, like embed them as much like obviously, you know, not every week is perfect, but embed them into the schedule, right? It's like, okay, every Saturday morning, we all go for a walk together. And then
Andrea Clark (48:27)
you
Yes.
Tara Rawana (48:54)
come home and play a board game, whatever it is, it doesn't matter what it is, but their brains love that predictability and that security almost, like, okay, that's the moment to connect, right? And sure, in that moment, they might be like, but I just wanna play on my iPad, but once they get into it, it is so deeply healing and...
Andrea Clark (49:01)
Yes.
Tara Rawana (49:17)
nurturing for them at this age and even continuing that right like into the teenage years as much as you can right they roll their eyes but they do really love it they do they really do yeah
Andrea Clark (49:27)
No, they secretly love it. No, they do. They secretly love it. Like I would have given
anything as a teenager and I was like a hellion, okay? Like I was very rebellious. I felt it was like my way of trying to get my needs met. All I really wanted was for my mom to like see me and force me to be like,
Tara Rawana (49:49)
Yep.
Andrea Clark (49:53)
connected or even just like connecting to me like that's all I really wanted was to be seen and witnessed and and so It was just so hard because I felt so alone all the time even though was like in the home, right and so knowing that I don't take her eye rolls or her like I don't want to personally I'm just like well
Tara Rawana (49:59)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (50:17)
I say to her I was like, I know you don't, that's okay. I'm like, but you know, this is part of the deal. Being part of this family is we spend some intentional time together every day. So once we do it, then you can go back to whatever, right? And so I acknowledge her like pretending or her initial, you know, and then she's like, okay, fine. And then we get into it. And it's, it's great, right? We were playing board games the other night she didn't want to play the second one.
Tara Rawana (50:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Andrea Clark (50:43)
And I just said to her, I was like, listen, we're having connection time. We're having family time. We can change the game if you want. I'm like, but sometimes connection also means that we're all doing something that everybody likes, not just one person. I'm like, so we can change the game or what do you want to do? And she's like, I'll just play the game. At the end of the game, she says to me, okay, guys, I'm really glad that you made me this second game. I actually had a really good time with you. Right? Like,
Tara Rawana (50:55)
Mm-hmm.
Love it. Oh,
so sweet.
Andrea Clark (51:13)
So
it's not like I really try not to shame her into like this. You never want to spend time with us and it's just more like here, this is what we're, this is what we do as a family and we're going to do it. And then when we're done, you can go do whatever you want. And that takes the pressure off of her feeling like she has to have a certain attitude while we're doing it or right. Cause that's the other thing is that if you're in this space with your family and they're like nitpicking and want you to perform that doesn't.
Tara Rawana (51:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep. Yep.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (51:43)
feel
like you're not gonna feel safe to connect and just be. And I think that that's an important piece too, is like parents want their, they want their kids or their young women to like, emote a certain way or express delight or, and it's just kinda like, just let them be. And if you just let them be, they'll actually connect more.
Tara Rawana (51:47)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. think that's actually such an important point. And something that I actually think is such a critical conversation to have during puberty and to remind parents that no one can control their emotions, right? Emotions are automatic. And so when we criticize, like there are wrong actions, absolutely. But there are no wrong emotions, right? So if we are constantly criticizing her anger or her irritability or
Andrea Clark (52:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
Tara Rawana (52:34)
the emotion, that is just going to create disconnect because she's like, well, I don't know how to change this, but we can change the action, right? Like if she plays again, well, that's gonna have an effect on her mood and her thoughts and all of the pieces, but telling her to stop or change that feeling is just counterproductive. It's just going to create conflict.
Andrea Clark (52:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, disconnection. makes it makes her feel like makes them feel shame. She was for the second game. She was like, kind of sat back and was and I nobody responded to that was just kind of like, Okay, let's play you know your turn archer and and after a bit she like leaned back in and was like into it again, right? But we didn't like highlight the fact that she was having a bad attitude or not excited or it just is was what it was.
Tara Rawana (53:00)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep, absolutely.
Andrea Clark (53:24)
And that allowed
her to kind of move through it and figure out a different way, right? How she felt or whatever. And I just think that that's really important. I remember my emotions being labeled a lot, pointed out or like nitpicked or, you know, I was eating worms or I was the, it just made me feel so shitty. I'm just like.
Tara Rawana (53:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. I know. ⁓
Andrea Clark (53:50)
This is just how I feel. What do want me to do? Like I'm a teen, right? So don't know. Like this is just how I feel
right now. Like I don't know what to tell you, right? It was like.
Tara Rawana (53:57)
Yeah,
yeah, it shuts down the whole conversation, right? And then you feel like, oh, I'm too much, or I'm this, or I'm that. And I think a big part of this too is emotional regulation for the adults involved can be a challenge, right? And it's like you said, it's not personal. It is not personal. The eye roll, it's nothing to do with you. I did a post about this a while ago. It was like,
Andrea Clark (54:00)
Thank you.
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (54:26)
It's not personal, it's puberty, right? Like it's the way her hormones are shifting. It's the way her brain is changing. It's really not you. It's just biology and hormonal and all of the things. And it's one thing to say that and it's a totally other thing to be in that moment and be like, as the parent, like, you know, like lose it, right? Like that's hard and that requires a lot of...
Andrea Clark (54:28)
Nice.
Tara Rawana (54:54)
emotional regulation as an adult, right? And so I think even with parents, seeking support if you need that, right? Leaning on your mom, friends, or your family, or a professional for support. I think a lot of us that didn't grow up in families where emotions were okay, or healthy, or allowed, it is hard to be emotionally regulated as an adult. That's not something...
That's taught, right? Like that's not inherent. And so I think that can be a really big challenge for a lot of parents. And I just want people to know, like, if you are losing your cool and you're taking it personally, like, that's normal. That is normal. And there is a lot of support and resources available to really help you through that. Because that's hard too.
Andrea Clark (55:42)
Yeah, what kind of support and resources would you encourage a parent, but especially like a mom who's walking their daughter through this process outside of friends and like, are there books? Do you think like therapy? Like what would you encourage them to do? Obviously your program, but what other types of resources are there?
Tara Rawana (56:03)
Yeah, I've seen therapy be really helpful for families and whether that's, you know, family therapy or just for a parent to work through things. I have seen that be really, really beneficial for families. And I think, you know, I think that your daughter going through a lot of these things, especially if you weren't supported, it can bring up a lot. Like it can trigger a lot.
Andrea Clark (56:28)
yeah.
Tara Rawana (56:30)
from your own childhood, right? And a lot that I feel like, know, often people think, well, I'm not in that anymore. I'm past that. I'm an adult. You know, I'm okay. And then she goes through it and it's trigger, trigger, trigger, trigger. And it brings up a lot. And that's a really common experience, right? And I think that that's where, you know,
Andrea Clark (56:42)
yeah.
Tara Rawana (56:51)
And it doesn't even necessarily need to be like formal therapy, even just recognizing that, reflecting on that. If breathing or meditation or walks or whatever, like exercise, like any coping strategies that are beneficial for you, really implementing them at this time. And I think community is so huge here, right? Like.
Andrea Clark (57:14)
Bye.
Tara Rawana (57:15)
having other mom friends that you can be like, okay, I am losing my shit. Like, can we talk through this? Can we, have you been here, right? Like, again, I think that that, I think a lot of parents going through this can feel a lot of shame and a lot of isolation and think that they're the only one, but that's not the case. Like, it's everybody. It's everyone is going through this, right? And so having conversations with other people that are in the thick of it, feeling the same thing.
Andrea Clark (57:22)
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (57:44)
can be so helpful and so validating.
Andrea Clark (57:47)
Yeah, I agree. I have a really good girlfriend who has had a similar upbringing to mine, like a very, you know, not connected mother. And we have like parallels in some of the things that we're going through as moms, right? Of girls, realizing how, I mean, as she gets older, I realize more and more how not supported.
Tara Rawana (57:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (58:12)
I was and that has been its own, besides grieving the fact that she's growing up and changing, I'm like realizing how much I haven't actually acknowledged or processed about my own experience at her age. And so I'm simultaneously working through that. And it can be a lot. So having resources and I'm pretty well resourced, right? Just in general.
Tara Rawana (58:30)
Yeah. Totally.
Andrea Clark (58:37)
But having other resources where I, like I can go to my girlfriend and say like, man, this, I had these thoughts and feelings today and it was rough. And I remember this thing from when I was like a 12 and I hadn't thought about that forever until this thing happened with my daughter, you know? And like just having her be like, yeah, that's really sucks. And I feel you, you know, like just witnessing can be very powerful.
Tara Rawana (59:02)
So powerful. Yep, yep.
And that's where we, like same as girls, right? It's those shame spirals where we feel like the only one. We feel like we're doing it all wrong. And she's feeling all that too, right? Like it's so interesting, like all the parallels, right? Like as we help her navigate this and.
Something that I talk to girls about often too is, and not in every case, but sometimes your mom is also going through perimenopause at the same time and her own hormonal shifts and changes. it's almost like, if it lines up like that, it's almost, you know, it's the start and sort of the end of the same cycle, that same female cycle. there's a lot of beauty and there's lots of ways to connect.
Andrea Clark (59:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (59:45)
through that, right? It's like, it is like this deeper understanding of being on opposite ends of that spectrum, but in some ways having a similar experience through it all.
Andrea Clark (59:56)
Yeah, absolutely. You know what's really interesting and I didn't really, we didn't really fully hit on this is when you talk, when you spoke about like the comparison and the perfectionism. Why do you think that that comes up? Like it made me think about, she made a comment about how she, she actually said, it was crazy. She said to me, well, you look like a Kardashian, which I don't, but I have, I am very curvaceous.
Tara Rawana (1:00:07)
Mm.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (1:00:24)
And I really don't like embrace and own my curves, right. And she witnesses me embracing that and celebrating my curves or whatever. And she's like, Well, you look like a Kardashian. And my best friend is like super skinny. And I don't look like either of you. And I was just I was kind of taken aback like by the fact that she even compared herself to me, right. And she's like, you have these beautiful curves, and I don't have these beautiful curves and
Tara Rawana (1:00:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
you
Andrea Clark (1:00:52)
I'm like, well, Samantha, you will have some form of curve. I said, I don't know exactly what your body is gonna look like, but like, you're developing into that right now. You know, I'm 42 years old, like, this is what, and I've had a baby, right? I said, so it's been a process and you're just starting that process. And I thought that that was fascinating that she even compared herself, her body to my body.
Tara Rawana (1:01:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-mm.
Yeah, yeah, so interesting. Yeah, that it so happens at that age, right? Like that social awareness and that comparison and yeah, I mean, I just I hear stuff like that all the time, right? And, and I think that to a lot of a lot of parents when conversations like that come up, they really panic almost or like, you know, freeze and
Andrea Clark (1:01:26)
Thank you.
Yes.
Tara Rawana (1:01:45)
They're like, no, but I want her to know that she's beautiful and that she doesn't need to compare. And it's, it's a tricky spot, right? Because she's having these feelings and it's, we don't want to tell her that like, well, don't feel like that. Like you're, you're fine the way you are. Cause she's like, well, I've noticed that maybe I'm not, and maybe I am different. And so it is a really, it's a challenging place to navigate.
Andrea Clark (1:02:06)
Right,
Tara Rawana (1:02:12)
Right? yeah, it really is. And, you know, I think just acknowledging like, yeah, it's so hard. And something that I always say to girls is I like to talk about the messy middle. And I talk about it with lots of things. Like I told, this was a few years ago, I told this story to the girls where we were painting our place and we did the first coat and I sat down and I was like, I hate it. I hate it. I hate the color.
Andrea Clark (1:02:13)
It is.
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (1:02:40)
this, it's not right, it doesn't fit. And my husband was like, okay, we just painted the whole apartment. And he's like, let's do the second coat, right? Like it looks a little patchy right now, let's do it and if you still hate it, we can figure it out, right? And so we did the second coat and I was like, okay, nevermind, it looks good, it came together, right? But it's that messy middle.
And everything in the middle feels messy and looks messy and doesn't really make sense. But it's only when we get to the other side that we can look back and say, okay, I was just in the middle of it. And it's always messy and that's okay. And I think for girls, just letting them know, it's okay to feel like that about your body sometimes. And I say that all the time.
Andrea Clark (1:03:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Tara Rawana (1:03:34)
If we just say like, no, no, no, you're perfect, you're beautiful, you're everything. They're like, no.
Andrea Clark (1:03:40)
Well, that's not what
they think. And so you're trying to tell them what to think about themselves. And it's like, can't, if it were that easy to heal people and change their minds by telling them what they think, neither of us would have a job, right? Like, so, but I know, I understand the urge. Like I've accidentally done it knowing that that's not effective. And I've said, and so one thing I do say to her is I'll say, you know what?
Tara Rawana (1:03:45)
Yeah. Mm hmm.
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Yes. Of course, of course. Yep.
Andrea Clark (1:04:10)
Of course, like I understand why you feel like that. You know, I said, I'll say, but how we feel isn't, isn't always the truth. I'm like, you feel that way right now because you're feeling weird about your body, right? You also feel that way because you're comparing yourself to your friend, but your friend has completely different by all, like two different parents, different metabolism or different whatever, like you two are going to look different.
Tara Rawana (1:04:31)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (1:04:36)
and
you think that she's beautiful and that's okay, so you think that's how you're supposed to look. And I will ask her, how does comparing make you feel? And it always makes her feel bad, right? And I said, okay, so comparison, we all do it, but it's also important to be aware of how much it affects us and how we feel about ourselves. But I don't wanna try to change her mind because
Tara Rawana (1:04:42)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it's
Andrea Clark (1:05:05)
that like doesn't work, you know what I mean?
Tara Rawana (1:05:07)
Yeah.
Yep. then it makes her, often it makes her feel like you don't get it, right? And something that I said too, I had a conversation like this really recently with a tween and she was saying, she's like, I don't feel pretty like all my friends. And it was a similar thing comparing bodies and all the things. we just talked about it I said to her like, I feel like that sometimes too.
Andrea Clark (1:05:12)
Totally.
Tara Rawana (1:05:31)
And then I looked around the room and there was a bunch of moms and girls there and I said to the moms, how many of you felt like that? And all of them, yeah, I felt like that. I compare myself sometimes too. And she was like, I didn't know that. I thought it was just me who thought that I wasn't pretty enough, good enough, whatever. And we're like, no, we've actually all felt that way. And she's like, wow, okay.
Andrea Clark (1:05:41)
Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (1:05:57)
Knowing that again knowing she wasn't alone in having that feeling was so healing for her in that moment
Andrea Clark (1:06:00)
Yeah.
Absolutely. I think too, like, I don't know if this comes up, trying, like going and trying on clothes and trying on, the other day we went to go get her school uniforms and she wanted to try shorts and she, this is like the first time she wanted to do shorts and like they're not for school uniforms. They're almost all the way down to your knees. Like they're not, I mean, they're uniforms. Like they're not actually fit for girls' bodies.
Tara Rawana (1:06:28)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Clark (1:06:32)
And she was so upset and the lighting wasn't good, you know, all of it, right. And she was so upset. And she's like, what? And I said, this is normal. Like I just told her, I'm like, this is normal. Sometimes trying on clothes is an upsetting process when they're not made for our bodies properly or the shapes of our bodies. The lighting isn't good. I'm like, this is normal. And
Tara Rawana (1:06:51)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (1:06:58)
Like I just want you to know that like your frustration is normal and there's nothing actually wrong with you, but it can feel like that when you're trying on clothes that aren't really tailored for your body and when the lighting is horrible and so it makes you look bigger than you are in the mirror. I'm like, I have this experience all the time. There's certain dressing rooms that I hate trying clothes on in because I feel like it makes my body look weird, you know?
Tara Rawana (1:07:27)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (1:07:28)
And that just like made her, I don't know, feel seen. Like she was still frustrated, but she was like, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (1:07:34)
Yeah, it's not just me, right? It's not just me. I'm not the only one. Yeah, yeah. It's
such, and that's, that is the antidote to shame, right? Is I've been there. I see you, me too, right? It's so powerful, so powerful. And something that I say too to girls and their moms is shame only lives in the dark, right? As soon as we put words to it, as soon as we say, I've been there too,
Andrea Clark (1:07:45)
Yes.
Tara Rawana (1:08:02)
me too, raise your hand if you felt that way. All the hands go up. It's, okay, it's not just me. I have discharge too. I, you know, right? It's, ⁓ okay, okay. It's not just me. It's just, it's so, so powerful. And I just, I think ultimately that is really what I'm trying to do with all of this puberty education is just eradicate that shame because...
Andrea Clark (1:08:11)
Yeah.
Tara Rawana (1:08:28)
every girl is going through the same thing and they just have no idea that they're all going through the exact same thing and that their parents went through the exact same thing. So how can we normalize all of this, all of these conversations and just get rid of all of that, right? Replace that with confidence and we free up the shame. What replaces it is so powerful, right? It's confidence, it's curiosity, it's...
Andrea Clark (1:08:33)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Tara Rawana (1:08:55)
all of these things that we want for girls, but shame takes up a lot of space in these conversations.
Andrea Clark (1:09:02)
Yeah, absolutely. I will say this, and I don't think like we're out of the waters by any means. Her dad took her, so she's in Girl Scouts, which is something I did for her self-confidence, right? Her being around like a really empowering female environment. And she went through this phase where, and she hasn't started menstruating, but she went through this phase where,
Tara Rawana (1:09:14)
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (1:09:23)
she really was like she loves to dance and like what you were talking about, right? They get up and they and she used to just be so disinhibited. I have so many videos of her and she was little just dancing and being goofy. And I there's been a gap. There's not a lot of that that's been going on for like, you know, year and a half to years. And he sent me this picture of her with one of her Girl Scout sisters there like had glow sticks on their body and they were just like, you could tell they were dancing.
Tara Rawana (1:09:28)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (1:09:52)
And it just
really warmed my heart. I'm like, she's starting to settle into herself. Like she's making a way. Like she's finding some self-confidence. She's letting herself kind of go at moments and like be free again, which makes me hopeful. It's gonna be messy. I know there's gonna be more, but that she's like finding her footing in this process.
Tara Rawana (1:10:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Love it. that's great. That's so great to see.
Andrea Clark (1:10:16)
Yeah.
Yeah. So, this has been an incredible conversation. think what you're doing is so incredible and everybody needs to go to your page. Like I think even, women who maybe don't have children yet, or even had their own experience that they want to heal through, like they need to be on your page because it's very healing for me too, just personally to see your content.
Tara Rawana (1:10:23)
That was so much fun. I love
Aw, thanks.
Andrea Clark (1:10:43)
Where can people find you?
Tara Rawana (1:10:46)
Mm-hmm.
So my Instagram is doctor.terrarawanna. So that's T-A-R-A-R-A-W-A-N-A. I'm very active on Instagram, so you can definitely find me there. And I have a bunch of resources, free resources for families as well. I have a period kit checklist if your daughter is getting close to her first period.
I have an overview of those five stages of puberty. And then I have a free guide that's a bunch of questions to ask your daughter before her teen years. So you can find all of those on my page as well.
Andrea Clark (1:11:20)
I
love it. And we're going to also have your Instagram and your website linked in the show notes. So you guys can go like directly to the show notes anywhere you're listening or watching this. And your program, is it a rolling program or is it like, do you launch it every so often? Like how does that work if somebody wants to learn more about your program?
Tara Rawana (1:11:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So the, my self-paced mom and daughter program or parent and daughter program is coming out next month. So depending on when this is released, it's coming out in August, 2025. So stay tuned and yeah, it'll be coming out in August and yeah, all the details will be available very soon.
Andrea Clark (1:11:50)
awesome.
Okay, awesome.
Yeah, so it'll be coming out around, probably around within a couple weeks that same time that this is aired. So I'm really excited for people to learn about that. So I'm assuming they can just go to the link that we're already going to provide. Okay. Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. This has been such a just profound conversation, such a healing conversation. I'm so excited for everybody to hear it.
Tara Rawana (1:12:10)
Awesome.
Yes, yep, I'll link the wait list on there so that they can join. ⁓
Well, thank you so much for having me. I really love doing this with you, Andrea.
Andrea Clark (1:12:32)
Absolutely. All right, I'll see you guys in the next episode.
Tara Rawana (1:12:34)
Thank