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Transforming the Game with Kristina Katsanevas is the podcast for game-changers, risk-takers, and industry shakers. Don’t hate the player—hate the game? Not here. These leaders are rewriting the rules. From high-net-worth entrepreneurs, founders of Australia’s most iconic brands, and those disciplined enough to keep stacking those habits to success. We dive into the minds of pioneers innovating in media, business, fashion, sport and transformation.
Want to know how to break the mold and redefine success in your career, business, and life?
Tune in and start transforming the game.
Kristina Katsanevas (00:00)
It's irrelevant the way we grew up, whether we had money or not. It's almost an advantage to grow up and have to make it on your own. Through my whole life I've been put in a box. Who do you think you are? You don't have the money to go to college. You can't be a success. Know your place, young man. There's nobody holding me back from establishing my own identity. I am on a mission to make this world a better place. If you think about where the world is today, it is...
The grumpiest, the most frustrated, the angriest, the most fearful. I've just got a different perspective. We have so much to be grateful for as humanity. He led 7-Eleven through disruption and blockbusted during its most pivotal hour. From boardroom power to global purpose, Jim Keys is championing a new legacy, fighting for equal access to education as a human right.
Jim Keyes (00:58)
Let's have some fun.
Kristina Katsanevas (00:58)
Yes. All right. Jim Keys, welcome to Transforming the Game. What an honor to have you on the show.
Jim Keyes (01:06)
Thank you, Kristina it's great to be with you.
Kristina Katsanevas (01:08)
Now with all your success and your book, Education is Freedom, what is Jim Keys's mission?
Jim Keyes (01:16)
I am on a mission to make this world a better place.
in all seriousness, if you think about where the world is today, it is, at least in my lifetime, the grumpiest, the most frustrated, the angriest, the most fearful, and the most, I don't know, the most victimhood.
Kristina Katsanevas (01:32)
you
Jim Keyes (01:37)
oriented and in the context of all of that fear and uncertainty and everything, I've just got a different perspective and I'm trying to share with the world that my gosh, we have so much to be grateful for as humanity with where we are today and what are we afraid of?
Kristina Katsanevas (01:54)
Yeah.
Yeah. What are we afraid of? I agree. There's a lot of change and there's a lot of fear in the unknown with technology.
But if we take it back a few notches here from the beginning for you, you grew up in very modest circumstances. So what is it about your childhood that built that grit, determination and the positive outlook in life for you?
Jim Keyes (02:21)
I think it was an advantage. think I share this with when I talk to people that are suffering from those self doubts and you know, the lack of belief in themselves, I share with them that it's self imposed. So much of it's self imposed because it's irrelevant the way we grew up.
Kristina Katsanevas (02:36)
Mm-hmm.
Jim Keyes (02:40)
whether we had money or not. And if you look at the whole landscape, is it easier for someone that grew up in a wealthy family and got to go to the best schools and had everything handed to them? Maybe. But do they have that same resolve? they have that same grit? Do they have that same willingness to take responsibility for their own future? ⁓ Not always. Not always.
Kristina Katsanevas (02:59)
Mm.
Jim Keyes (03:03)
So it's almost an advantage to grow up and have to make it on your own because then you have, for one, a little more gratitude for what you do have, but you also don't have the expectations that you have to stay there. You could go back, right? And you were perfectly happy. It wasn't about happiness. It was about freedom.
Kristina Katsanevas (03:06)
under this.
Yeah.
Freedom, freedom. And I think it's also, like you say, it's how bad do people want it and having to get, do it for themselves. Someone's not going to hand them everything on a silver platter. And then, so what do you really want and how bad are you willing to get out there and do it, right? So. ⁓
Jim Keyes (03:42)
Yeah, exactly. And you're
just the belief, the belief that you can. I think that's the big thing. Because everyone, yeah, everyone puts that doubt in our head that, you're not smart enough, you're not good enough. And it's all self-imposed doubt and fear that is, it's foolish. There is no limitation on us other than that that we put on ourselves. Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (03:49)
the belief that you can.
I mean.
Yes,
yeah, that's true, that's true. You just made me think of a really funny story and I'll say it quickly because it isn't about me but when I was young I thought I wanted to be a vet when and I had a sick guinea pig or something went to the vet and I was like I was young I was young I maybe want to be a vet and the vet said to me you have to be really smart to be a vet and whatever they meant by that I took it like I mustn't be smart enough and no joke from that day was like I'm
Well, I can't be a vet and it sticks with me to this day going, how silly or how funny or if that person had have just said, what a great opportunity. It's such a great thing. You should look at this and you know, I mean, I don't think I would have coped being a vet, but it was just funny. Like it's someone else's perception and someone else's insecurities or someone else's that you they project onto you and you either repel it or you absorb it.
Jim Keyes (04:46)
Exactly.
Yeah, so true, so true. But society is like that. I mean, think about it. Even from the time we were kids, if you were the kid in class that was like going, I know, I know, and you wanted to answer the question, what happened? You were ridiculed. You were encouraged to don't do that. You're making us look bad, right? It's a natural...
Kristina Katsanevas (05:01)
I. Yeah.
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah, yeah, it's the classroom.
Jim Keyes (05:24)
sadly a natural human trait and and it unfortunately in in the broader scale it manifests itself in tribalism right and it's the same what we see in society today goes right back to grade school because when people have fear they can revert to their
Kristina Katsanevas (05:33)
and
you
Jim Keyes (05:44)
basic animalistic instincts to seek comfort in the herd. Protection in the herd, in the crowd. Yeah, yeah. they, if someone stands out, that's a threat to the herd, to the unity of that group. And you you bring that into now politics and it's like, no.
Kristina Katsanevas (05:49)
Hmm.
be the same.
Jim Keyes (06:06)
those people that think differently from me, they're evil. I say, no, they're not. just have a different point of view.
Kristina Katsanevas (06:11)
Yeah, exactly. If people could have more self-awareness of going, we agree to disagree or just looking from someone's perspective to understand that your perceptions are different. And it's such a learning, it's a learning thing you can do.
So it's not, if people are willing to open their eyes, you can learn this and you can, and sometimes it's okay to agree to disagree or sometimes it's okay to listen. And once people feel heard, don't you find that you can get a lot more out of them, whether you agree with them or not. If as long as they people feel heard, there's some magic there.
Jim Keyes (06:29)
Yeah.
Sure.
Absolutely.
You said the two magic words the you remember on when I talked about the book with you when we first met There you go. Perfect. Perfect. Well the the the two words you mentioned are perc perception
Kristina Katsanevas (06:55)
Got it. ⁓
Jim Keyes (07:02)
And it's perception that causes humans to behave badly because if you don't have the facts and you have fear and you have perceptions, then the perceptions trigger that fear and trigger anger and trigger hatred. But perspective I put on here as what happens when you step back and you look at the world from a different perspective. You don't see borders. You don't see wars. You don't see
differences between humanity. You see this beautiful planet and one human race
Kristina Katsanevas (07:28)
right.
Jim Keyes (07:33)
with more similarities than differences. So if we can each of us channel our ability, our very human ability to not react out of fear to perceptions and instead have a different perspective and really use our also very human
prefrontal cortex to have critical thinking and judgment and seek truth, the world might be a better place.
Kristina Katsanevas (07:58)
I mean, of course it would be amazing. You just made me think of back in the COVID days, there was a meme that went around and it was pie. if you just take a slice of a pie and I'll get the shot in that from the corner, then eight or 10 people get a slice of the pie.
But if you take it out of the center, then no one else gets the slice of the pie. And it's about, again, having that, perception, that self-awareness, like you say, critical thinking about what are you doing? And is it, it's not like all about you. And if you just actually still get your slice, but do it in a, what's the word,
way, yeah, collaborative way, then, you know, the...
Jim Keyes (08:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (08:38)
as you say, the world could be a better place and everyone could be a little bit happier or it's just, it's an interesting thing. I liked something you said in your book where you were talking about you and Stedman and I'm going to have to read it because I want to get the words right. Where you share a passion for education and it's actually, I recently had an interview with Hugh Hilton and he echoed the same thing. It's coming through and through about how education is the one thing people can't take away from you.
So it gives you your confidence, which is one of the C's we're going to get into. But you were talking about that the true value is to let anyone, anywhere, anytime establish their identity
become who they want to be and not who others think they should and are told to be. So were you told to be a certain thing as a child or younger? And then you're like, no, I want to be different. Or were you actually told the positive and you had that reinforcement?
Jim Keyes (09:32)
I was put in a box and through my whole life I've been put in a box and as a child it was well who do you think you are? You don't have the money to go to college? You can't be a success? Look around. Look at where you come from. That's not an option for you. Know your place young man. mean literally those, yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (09:51)
Now you're a place.
Jim Keyes (09:53)
it's horrible, but this is what happens. This is what happens to young people. so many of them give up and then that causes that victim mentality. Well, it's not my fault. It's because the man's keeping me down. There is no man. ⁓
Kristina Katsanevas (09:54)
Okay, with the sidebar.
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (10:09)
And so, yeah, I resisted that. I don't know why I resisted it other than perhaps I saw my brothers. I was the youngest of six siblings and I saw them take on a different approach and theirs was more too often.
a bit of a victim approach that, hey, nothing I can do. is the way life is. And I refused to accept that. And I found that when I used education, that I was rewarded along the way, that the more I learned, the more I was able to do, whether it was in sport or in school or then when I first got a job in the working world.
Kristina Katsanevas (10:29)
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (10:48)
I realized the more I learned the more I'm able to do things that other people can't do and that's a good thing. So there's nobody holding me back from establishing my own identity.
Kristina Katsanevas (10:54)
Yeah.
Beautiful. And I think I want to emphasize there because when people think education, they might be thinking, you know, well, for here, primary school, high school, college, whatever you guys here.
But really, you're talking about any growth and learning. You said sport, you said career. So it's additional learning on top of what you already know, which you can do at any age, in any circumstance from now.
Jim Keyes (11:13)
Yes. ⁓
Yeah, exactly. mean, you see my office is surrounded by aviation stuff. I'm a pilot and to be a pilot, you have to learn. And it's not just one time, you don't just learn to be a pilot. I call it a license to learn after you get your pilot's license because you're, in order to not kill yourself and your passengers, you have to keep learning. And even today, in order to fly, I have the privilege of flying a
Kristina Katsanevas (11:27)
Yes.
Okay.
Jim Keyes (11:50)
at 45,000 feet, single pilot without even a co-pilot with me. The reason I have the privilege of doing that is I train with the professionals. So once a year I go into a simulator for three days and I...
reprogram my brain to avoid fear in the case of an emergency
and instead use information, data that's available to me to solve problems in the best possible way. But that's a constant learning process that I still, in order to have the privilege to jump in an airplane and fly anywhere in the world, I have to keep learning constantly.
Kristina Katsanevas (12:29)
Continuous learning, continuous learning, isn't it? I love that. And it also is the good perspective for you.
Jim Keyes (12:31)
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (12:36)
and for anyone, but you're constantly training yourself to look for the gaps, look for the opportunities, right? You're not looking for the mountain. You're not looking for the danger. You're looking for the gaps, the opportunity to fly safely. Now, if we go back to the box you were put in and then pushing yourself out of that, you worked your way up in 7-Eleven, you were there and you were CEO of 7-Eleven. So for all of us having our sugar hits at two o'clock, five p.m.
Jim Keyes (12:47)
Yes, exactly.
Kristina Katsanevas (13:03)
We've you Jim to blame for it, but you were very successful there that's a global empire that you drove. Let's go into that time in your life and just what was your mindset or what was your goals in going in
Jim Keyes (13:17)
It started actually when the company was in trouble. was in deep financial trouble shortly after I joined and it was facing bankruptcy. And I approached the chairman of the company and said, should I even stay? company, the people were saying 7-Eleven's going go away.
And it was really great advice that he gave me. said, you know, Jim, not going go away, or we shouldn't go away, because we're in a business called convenience, and convenience is never going go away. He said, now, we are selling the wrong things. We sell beer, soft drinks, cigarettes, we sell things that everybody else sells, but that's not the core of who we are. Our core is to find things that people need conveniently.
and to make it available to them what they want, where they want, when they want it. And I took him very literally and said, you're right, that's unlimited opportunity. Convenience is only going, the need for convenience is only going grow, so I should stay and I doubled down on working even harder.
Kristina Katsanevas (14:13)
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (14:18)
during a crisis while everybody else had their head down and said, I'm going to find a new job or I'm not
going to go to the office 12 hours a day. I don't even know if I'll have a job in the future. I doubled down and worked harder. And we came out of that bankruptcy situation. I was promoted and given the privilege of leading strategic planning for the company going forward.
Because now I embrace this idea that our company had unlimited opportunity if we would embrace change.
Kristina Katsanevas (14:47)
Yes. Such a big thing.
Jim Keyes (14:49)
It was a great opportunity, personally and professionally, the company had to reinvent itself. So that crisis ended up being an opportunity. In fact, when I wrote this book, I wrote down the first three words, change equals opportunity.
Kristina Katsanevas (15:02)
Yes, most people should have that on their boards in their businesses, change equals opportunity. I spent a lot of my career and my time trying to get people
to adopt new change or new ways of working and on quite large scales, smaller scales So you embrace change. You're one of my favorite people. So you're one I put at the front of my bell curve because you're going be one of those ones that are the innovators and the lead adopters. how did you manage the people when you're going to...
go through change because managing a culture and in today's world with the technology, the change in business, it's rapid and it's on a trajectory no one's seen. the way AI and tech is going, I don't believe we really know what's about to hit in five years time. So how did you navigate your people through all this change and keep the momentum high and the
morale high.
Jim Keyes (15:54)
it was a matter i think of first of all identifying what are the obstacles to change
And ⁓ if you believe that change is opportunity, but you might remember I coined the expression, the acronym CEO. mean, change equals opportunity is the role of the CEO, but it's the role of everybody in the company if they ever want to be CEO or if they see themselves as CEO of their own area of the company, they should embrace the same thing. So I try to dig into why do people not like change? Why do they resist change?
Kristina Katsanevas (15:59)
Yep.
Okay.
Jim Keyes (16:24)
because companies go away because they're unable to change to adapt to change and Mostly if you dig into it, it's mostly fear so
I'm an entrepreneur. I've gotten successful Now I'm successful now. I'm kind of comfortable. I like this Well, I don't want to screw it up. So if I if I take too much risk with my business
I mean, may all go away. Well, here's the reality. If you don't continue to take risk with your business, because that's what got you here. And if you don't continue that adaptation and that willingness to change, you will go away. Your business will go away.
Kristina Katsanevas (16:57)
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (17:02)
And so it's that idea that fear is the biggest enemy of change. So take away the fear.
Kristina Katsanevas (17:09)
Take one.
Jim Keyes (17:10)
Try to find out what's
causing that fear and encourage people to embrace the change. having confidence and then having clarity so that communication, the ability to, I mean, I call clarity, it's kind of like turning on the light. If you're scared of the dark, you turn on the light. Now there's nothing to be afraid of. So if you're a CEO and your people are afraid, communicate.
turn on the light bring them under the tent show them the strategy here's where we're going follow me and now they have nothing to be afraid of
Kristina Katsanevas (17:34)
Communicate
now.
like close to their chests and I do believe that they try and build too much of a hierarchy I think and it just causes problems. Have you experienced any or got any stories there where you've had executives that don't know how to communicate or don't want to or think that's their power?
Jim Keyes (17:56)
yeah, yeah.
Here's the way I describe it. There's kind of two kinds of leaders, of course there are many more than two kinds of leaders, but I'll simplify and break it into two. Those who inspire and those who lead by fear. And you see a lot that'll lead by fear. And frankly, it's the easiest form. And in the short term, sometimes fear works. So take a government, for example. You can win an election by scaring people to death.
Kristina Katsanevas (18:09)
True.
Jim Keyes (18:23)
and then you can accomplish things by scaring people because you can scare them into action. Now the question is can you sustain?
Kristina Katsanevas (18:32)
Yeah. was exactly, don't, that isn't, in my opinion, isn't a sustainable option ever because it's coercion. In the end, it's like coercion, right? But to sustain it, CIA, Andrew Bustamante, he coined the term, from rice to,
motivate people and it's reward, ego, ideology, coercion. And what you're talking about there is the leaders that go by coercion because it's a power trip and it's, it's, I call it as well, people living in the Stockholm syndrome, they're great at what they do. They've been there for years, but they get so beaten down in this toxic, lack of a better word, culture.
that they lose their ability to look outside, to keep learning and to grow. And again, that stacks on, right?
Jim Keyes (19:13)
Exactly. No, it's exactly true. So the the inverse of leading by fear and coercion is inspiration is to be able to paint a picture for an organization whether it's a corporation or a country and say here's where we're going and Don't you want to be on this boat with me because this is going to be a great journey and here's where we're going I want people that have the confidence
to join me in this because I believe we'll be successful, but you've got to believe too. And by the way, we've all got to communicate with other people, have clarity of this mission. if, if, if I'm going to say, we're going to go this way. And if you're going to be passive aggressive and say, well, I don't buy that strategy. So I'm just going to sit quietly and do my job. We're not going to get there. And yeah. So it's, it's, it's a pretty simple formula really that
Kristina Katsanevas (19:37)
Okay.
Exactly.
Jim Keyes (20:03)
change, confidence, and clarity can pave the way for people to come together and really succeed if they share that vision of what's possible and want to together inspire work through inspiration versus coercion, intimidation, and fear.
Kristina Katsanevas (20:21)
What would you suggest to if there's any leaders out there going, maybe, you know, maybe I do want to change or I can see my culture is going down and they actually do want to do a bit better. What's something they could take away now or go learn or just try in the workplace to turn it around to get their culture back on track and to get people more rallied behind them.
Jim Keyes (20:45)
The first thing I would recommend to any leader is look in the mirror. Are you motivated by fear? Are you afraid? Do you have that insecurity that you can even lead your team? And let's face it, many of us do. We're out there, yeah, I'm confident. Maybe not, you know? Because you will project on your people.
Kristina Katsanevas (21:01)
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (21:05)
whatever it is you feel and if you're afraid, your people are going be 10 times more afraid. So step one, I would look inside and recognize that there's really nothing to be afraid of because any crisis can be turned around, any problem can be fixed with knowledge and diligence. So.
there's nothing to be afraid of. that once a leader establishes, okay, I got this, I can do this, then it comes down to sharing that level of confidence with the people, making sure that they too now can not tank the results of the company because of their fears, which happens, but that they're confident. And then finally, and this is probably the most important for a leader, this clarity, this ability to listen.
Kristina Katsanevas (21:33)
.
Jim Keyes (21:51)
because there's clarity inbound and outbound and then ability to communicate effectively. In a time of crisis, a
leader can't over communicate because that fear will creep into the organization. The more a leader can communicate, the more they're putting on the light and keeping their organization from being afraid.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:02)
Yeah, I agree with that.
That's so good, because humans, we don't like a gap in our head. And if there is, we will fill it with our own story. my golly gosh.
Jim Keyes (22:19)
So true. So true.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:24)
That's great because I've been really wanting to delve deep with you into the leadership side and the culture side because you have been a turnaround guy. You're not afraid of those hard companies where you have gone in because you went from 7-Eleven to Blockbuster. And that wasn't because it was swimming along nicely and you're like, I'm going to get on a gravy train. had to do a lot of work in Blockbuster. I mean, obviously the iconic thing people...
Jim Keyes (22:44)
That's all.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:51)
rightly or wrongly they talk about is the Netflix blockbuster, but that was pre your time, pre your time. I loved your line in your book where with all the information that previous CEO had in the timing that Netflix come. Cause everyone love to be a bit of a know it all. But with the information he had in the time that he had in the circumstances there was.
Jim Keyes (22:56)
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (23:11)
he made probably what 99.99 % of people would have made in a decision.
Jim Keyes (23:15)
Yeah,
the best decisions. I think the quote you're referring to is I say, I don't even know if I put this in the book, but I've been saying it a lot when I go out and do talks. I say, it's easy to judge people by the decisions they make, but we don't always know the choices they faced.
Kristina Katsanevas (23:32)
We'll judge someone and go, why would they make that? Or a sports person on the team, why would they run left when there was a gap right? I'm like, you're looking from back here in a totally different, you know, you're not in it at the moment with the choices that they had.
Jim Keyes (23:40)
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
Kristina Katsanevas (23:47)
So definitely not afraid of a challenge. you talk in your book very candidly about how at this time you did have some where your confidence was bashed down because you're in America and they're writing stories, made up, whatever, it didn't matter. how did you get yourself
Jim Keyes (23:58)
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (24:05)
out of that or maintain your own self-identity and confidence during that because leaders would go through that. You're in the spotlight. You're feeling that pressure constantly. It's a bit of a pressure cooker. What did you do? What were your tactics?
Jim Keyes (24:17)
Yeah, think part of it is having the ability to look inward and realize this is not personal. your photograph shows up in the New York Post with the Pinocchio nose.
not very flattering and you're accused of lying and you know you weren't lying you're you're truly not going to file bankruptcy but the perception is you are and therefore you're lying about it when you know you're on the right side of an issue then you have to be able to have the thick enough skin to realize this is not personal the person who's attacking me doesn't have the information that I have
person who's attacking me may have a different objective. They may be trying to push the company into bankruptcy because they may have a financial interest in the company not succeeding. Maybe they bought a bunch of Netflix stock and they want us to go down, you know. So there are always those reasons if you can get to the heart of it that will prevent you then from being a victim yourself and letting those other people
Kristina Katsanevas (24:56)
Okay.
Jim Keyes (25:18)
put you in that box and establish your identity for you. That was the lesson I learned and even I though, every once in a while you need some reinforcement. I, like there's a story I like to tell about one of the darkest hours at Blockbuster, I was at an event and I ran into Warren Buffett and he said, he said,
Kristina Katsanevas (25:19)
And.
Jim Keyes (25:42)
I was explaining to him what I was doing at Blockbuster and explaining the financial markets have just collapsed. I've got a billion dollars in debt. I can't get it refinanced and everybody's thinking we're going to file for bankruptcy. I've got everybody piling on and boy this is tough. And I was almost apologetic about it. And he said, Jim, would you rather be on the bench watching somebody else at bat or would you rather be in there in the game?
was like, yeah, rather be in the game. He's like, well, dust yourself off, get back up and stand up at the plate. You'll you'll find you'll find a way. We all need that sometimes, you know, when when that little person on your shoulders getting you that message of doubt. It's annoying little person, isn't it? It's like, shut up.
Kristina Katsanevas (26:10)
Yeah.
Yep. And
we've all got it. Yeah. And it's just like, you're like, no, stop. Sometimes, sometimes that little person does win for people. I guess like Warren said, what wise words and a man who's gone through ups and downs, I'm sure to get where he is, is to go, would you rather be in the game, dust yourself off and just get back up?
Jim Keyes (26:34)
cut it out. Yeah. But sometimes they win. Sometimes that little person wins.
Yeah.
yeah.
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (26:53)
Like just get back up because even when that little voice annoyingly does win and it does knock you down, dust yourself off and get back up. And then it's about getting up quicker and quicker and quicker rather than days, weeks. Yes, yes. So critical. So critical.
Jim Keyes (27:01)
That's good.
and learn, and learn from that knockdown. Yep.
Exactly.
Kristina Katsanevas (27:12)
And people
And I try and tell myself to have that perception of when things are not going to plan or you're feeling that fog or that darkness going, OK, well, I'm about to come out the other you're going to come out. You always come out. So I wonder what I'm going to learn. And if you can take that on board, you never know where you're going to go. So.
Jim Keyes (27:28)
Absolutely.
Kristina Katsanevas (27:29)
do you find with opportunities that have come along in your CEO careers that luck has played a part? is there an element of luck or is it just always strategic?
Jim Keyes (27:40)
You know, I'll give two good examples. 7-Eleven and Blockbuster went through exactly the same situation. The companies are much more similar than people think on the surface. 7-Eleven was in the business of convenient access to goods and services. Blockbuster was in the business of convenient access to media entertainment. 7-Eleven went through a complete period of financial meltdown.
Blockbuster went through a complete period of financial meltdown. I lived through both of those situations, almost identical situations. And in the first case, I ended up with a really good strategic partner, 7-Eleven Japan, came in and brought capital to 7-Eleven and allowed us to emerge from bankruptcy, reinvent ourselves. And today they have 80
plus thousand stores worldwide. Blockbuster, same situation, same scenario, restructuring of the debt, good financial partner with Dish Network. They unfortunately decided that their strategy was going be a little different. Instead of competing with Netflix for streaming via the internet, Dish's strategy was to go straight to mobility, cellular. They thought...
Kristina Katsanevas (28:31)
Well.
Jim Keyes (28:54)
that it would be a better path for streaming movies. Now they were probably 10 years too early because the internet was more robust than Wi-Fi, than cellular at the time. So when the government didn't release in the United States the bandwidth for mobility, it set
Kristina Katsanevas (28:57)
Pardon me.
Jim Keyes (29:18)
dish back and they decided to close down the stores and put the blockbuster
brand on the shelf. So different outcome, but in both cases, from my perspective, same strategy, same execution. So there's a little luck involved timing. but it is.
Kristina Katsanevas (29:28)
Mm-hmm.
It's also a good framework
that you built, right? So, and you're going to show that people can pivot industries when, you're building a business, that if you get the right foundation for a business, you can build it, scale it, turn it around when you know the right pillars to put in place. So, let's go back to your book, which I've read through.
And it's very much about, you want to make the world a better place. I know everyone needs to get it. You can get it all here in Australia. You get it on Amazon. You get it on probably in the bookstores, but obviously everything's Amazon. But what we talk about is you go through your C's, so many C's, so many C's. But what we're talking about there is that you start with people can learn and then how to learn.
why to learn. And what I wanted to talk about is from the change, the confidence and the clarity we've talked about. The critical thinking, the curiosity and the creativity is the next critical steps for people to want to grow, scale change, like be happier, create a better life. I mean, it's hard work being miserable and it's hard work learning. So you might as well choose your heart and choose the better path, I say.
But you got very curious and you got very creative and now in it, you are suggesting everyone should get a bit creative now. I liked this and I was thinking, I play the piano back in the kid, I've got a piano behind me. I'm like, I should do what Jim says and even half an hour a week just start and play the piano. But you're an artist.
Jim Keyes (30:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, sort of. mean, I do. I dabble in it. But everybody can. Everybody can. We are all artists. We're all creative. When we're kids, do you know any kid that can't sing at the top of their lungs or dance with Wild Abandon? Until somebody says, no, no, you're not good. And then they stop, right?
Kristina Katsanevas (31:29)
You're not good.
Jim Keyes (31:32)
And that's what happens as adults. It's like, no, no, you don't know how to paint. You can't play the piano. You're awful. And so we let someone else, again, establish our identity. You're not creative. We're all creative. And here's my favorite quote. I put it in the book in the top of that section. Einstein said that creativity is intelligence having fun.
Kristina Katsanevas (31:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Just.
Yes, yes, I do remember seeing that. I thought that was clever. That was clever, right? It's having fun and it's the word fun. I think adults stop having fun and that's the problem with the world. We've stopped having fun so we're not allowed to be creative because we're not the best at what we're doing or we're not singing on key.
Jim Keyes (32:02)
I love that.
Get out. Hello?
I I have friends who are concert pianists and they will not sit down at the piano because they were trained formally and they could outplay me any day. I mean, they would put me to shame, but they won't even try because they have a sense of what perfection is, right? I sit down, I don't care if I make a mistake. In fact, what I do is I write music because then nobody knows if it's bad.
What else? It's new music. It's supposed to sound like that.
Kristina Katsanevas (32:41)
That's brilliant! Oh great, that's so great.
That's so true. You know with professional athletes a lot as well. So they've gone through, they're praying to be the peak, they only race because they're going to, they want to win. And then when they no longer, they're retiring at 25, they're retiring at 30, they won't get back on the bike. They won't get back in the pool. And because they said no, like because they, their standards will be here and they don't know how to switch that in their head. So it's very important for people to not see it about winning all the time and about
Jim Keyes (33:01)
Right
Kristina Katsanevas (33:15)
changing your state or now you talk about left to right with creativity and leaders should do something because it'll make them better leaders. What I was wondering, I'm not sure I get told maybe I'm left brain. I don't know. I might be right. I feel like I could be I don't not sure. But you talk about if you're most of left brainers and they should do creativity to become better problem solvers. What about the right brainers to is the reverse is what I was wondering if they're a right brainer.
to try and teach themselves left brain stuff.
Jim Keyes (33:44)
Yeah, we all know those very colorful artist people that don't believe that they can run a business or they don't believe that they're good at math. And here's the irony, you get a fabulous musician who says, no, I suck at math, I'd be a terrible accountant. It's like, wait, music is math. I mean, it is, when you think about it. Music is all mathematics and they are
Kristina Katsanevas (33:49)
Yes.
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (34:13)
mathematicians expressing themselves through music. It's all notes, it's all tempo, it's timing, it's... Yes, and yet they don't have the confidence to do math or to do something that may be more quote technical. And again, it's just getting outside of our comfort zone. Their comfort zone is stay in the right brain mode and don't...
Kristina Katsanevas (34:19)
on 10th right there.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (34:38)
veer over to the left. But what I encourage people to do in the book is that learning comes when we're outside of our comfort zone. That's where we really learn. So if you're left brain, get out there and create and then you'll, it may be awkward and it may be scary, but you'll learn from it.
Kristina Katsanevas (34:48)
Yeah. You gotta be.
Okay.
And if, what's your thoughts with all the learning and the education with technology, AI, like, because you talk about the school system a lot, obviously you talk about the American one, but how do you see, I feel like the school system is pretty old and stoic. You look at the way that cars have changed, planes have changed, right? Everything in the world has changed. But then if you look at pictures of the classroom from 100 years ago to now, they're quite similar.
So do you think, because the whole thing, presence of your book is education is freedom. Do you think that maybe schools could become more obsolete? This is a pretty thing, pretty big thing, but because kids were just going to learn by watching YouTube, by asking AI, like it's the trajectory of where I see this going is huge. So where do you see the place for school in the future with where it is to where it needs to be?
Jim Keyes (35:48)
Yeah, I've been actually advancing with the U.S. government a vision of a hybrid kind of education system. And here's what happened. Our school systems were built really by the pressure from the business community. The Rockefellers, in the case of the United States, started saying, I need employees, I need educated workforce. So they built a very standardized system.
because the idea was like producing Model T Fords. They had a mass production of an educated workforce. So the bell curve came from that. Even the bells that announce class changes came from the factory floor, shift change.
Kristina Katsanevas (36:31)
The bell, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim Keyes (36:32)
Yeah, yeah, it was shift change.
Okay, you're go from one class to another class to another class. Everything about our education system, the standardization was just like the standardization on the assembly line. It was mass production of kids. And anyone that didn't fit that norm, if you had a little ADHD or you a little dyslexic, you know, you're you're out, you're you're going to be held back or you're going to be in a special education group or whatever.
Technology can fix that because technology can provide individualized learning. Now, here's the difference. We're way over here on the spectrum of, you know, we're teaching the same way we did 100 years ago. And there are many people, Elon Musk, don't bother going to college, just go learn anything you need to learn on YouTube or go be a coder. Well, they're going all the way to the other extreme that you don't need school at all. I'm somewhere in the middle of this says, you know what?
Kristina Katsanevas (37:10)
Exactly.
Jim Keyes (37:27)
I'm a pretty normal person. I don't have the discipline to self-learn. Because if turned loose to self-learn, I'm only going to learn the stuff that I want to learn. I'm not going to learn the hard stuff. Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (37:37)
⁓
Jim Keyes (37:40)
I'm not going to go learn algebra because I'm not going to think I'll ever use it. But algebra is probably going to be pretty important to me in the long term. Plus, I don't know what I'm going to be in 20 years. I might need algebra.
Kristina Katsanevas (37:43)
Good.
Jim Keyes (37:52)
to be able to learn. So it's the discipline of the classroom that I think we still need as humans, but the power of technology ⁓ to deliver in that structured environment that most of us need, a personalized learning experience that allows us to level up.
Kristina Katsanevas (37:59)
Yeah.
Yes.
Jim Keyes (38:15)
So that's what I'm trying to advance. And candidly, what I've been talking to the administration, this administration, which has a very different point of view in the United States, they're trying to push education down as close to state and local government as possible. To me, that's a death knell for technology because technology requires scale. You couldn't build the internet for a state.
Kristina Katsanevas (38:22)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Jim Keyes (38:42)
So I am in advancing the idea of a I'm calling it the Internet of Ed Tech. So light up our starting in the United States all of our schools with the highest speed Wi-Fi in existence provide L.E.D. screens instead of blackboards in every classroom to dial up engagement levels. Taking it right into the operating room and a hospital to see
Kristina Katsanevas (39:03)
Mm.
Jim Keyes (39:07)
a biology instead of looking at a book, you're actually giving kids the experience and doing things like providing AI tutoring and leveling up capability. All of this is possible. It doesn't have to be invented because these tools exist. What no one has done is scaled them.
Kristina Katsanevas (39:10)
Yep.
Yep.
Mm, that's very true.
Jim Keyes (39:27)
So what I did is I met with the Secretary of Education here in the United States and in order to get their attention, I laid out this vision and said what we need is a JFK moment. JFK in the 1960s said we're going to put a man on the moon in this decade, not because it's easy, but because it's hard. And so what I'm saying is we're going to go from
literally fifty percent of our public school kids in america that are functionally illiterate today in the eighth grade we're going go to a hundred percent literacy by the third grade by building this capability and bring the best tools to the table and then we're going do is we're going share it with the world because in an educated world is going be a safer place in a place with less disease and less poverty etc
First, I'm trying to advance the idea of doing it in the United States. And with this administration, I've got to get a little aggressive. So I am advancing the idea that we're going to have a mega idea.
Kristina Katsanevas (40:23)
Bye education, great
again.
Jim Keyes (40:32)
We're going make education
great again.
Kristina Katsanevas (40:35)
Absolutely.
Jim Keyes (40:37)
Literally, I gave this cap
to the Secretary of Education and I gave her an extra one to give to the President.
Kristina Katsanevas (40:42)
See if he wears it. You've got to get out there. You've got to look at different ways. You've got to, you know, break the norm outside the box because that...
Jim Keyes (40:44)
I know you do what you have to do, you know
Kristina Katsanevas (40:54)
that worry and the gap in education with technology that is steamrolled ahead, it's just going to get
wanted to talk about Your micro scholarship theory. I think that's brilliant.
Jim Keyes (41:05)
Thank you. Thank you.
This is one of those things, you know, I tell the story of the internet and people are afraid of the internet. We're afraid of the internet. When it first came out, they said, my God, it's only good for porn. You know, that's all people are going to do on it ever. you know, or it's going to take away jobs. Little, it'll ruin small business. The internet spawns small business. I mean, think about Uber. You know, people now can work.
Kristina Katsanevas (41:30)
Everything.
Jim Keyes (41:30)
with their own car, Airbnb, can put their property to work for them. ⁓ This interview wouldn't be possible. All of these businesses were formed, opportunities formed because of this new technology. And so, yeah, people are looking at the current technology saying, my gosh, they're afraid of it, it's going take away opportunities. The way I look at it, it's just the opposite.
Kristina Katsanevas (41:37)
This interview wouldn't have been possible.
Jim Keyes (41:57)
that it's going to create an entirely new, their entirely new work, jobs, ⁓ businesses that we can't even today sit here and envision. But that will be possible because of the power of technology and AI. So yeah, I get super excited about it. And you know, at the end of the day, the most important thing to me and the reason that I didn't see this coming when I wrote the book, but when I put this book out saying education is freedom,
Kristina Katsanevas (42:05)
Correct.
Thank you.
Jim Keyes (42:26)
I didn't think about where we are as humanity right now and the fact that education really is now, because of technology, we're on the cusp
of lighting up the world and creating opportunity for everyone in every corner of the world in a way that humanity has never experienced before.
Kristina Katsanevas (42:51)
Yeah, it's absolutely and if people are willing to get on board and learn it and just embrace it for the ride, for the good, not the evil.
Jim Keyes (42:51)
Very exciting when you think about it.
Kristina Katsanevas (43:01)
then like you say, there's opportunities. there are where people go, it's going to take a job. like technology will take away jobs. But like you say, there are jobs that it's going to create. And I talk about this a lot too out there of going where people are scared of what it is. I'm like, look at your job. Look what AI will do for you and look what it can't. It can't do the emotional intelligence. And you talked about, we go back to the caveman days and the tribal days. And that's what
Jim Keyes (43:18)
Hmm?
Kristina Katsanevas (43:27)
our genetic makeup, that's how we're survival. So that's not going to change. So with technology taking away a lot of the human element and the authenticity, what people will seek is that emotional intelligence, is that collaboration, is that community, don't you feel? And I think that's important to bring into anything you're doing if you want to thrive.
Jim Keyes (43:41)
Yes.
Yes.
Exactly. And you know, I almost forgot to build on what you had raised, where I went off on this rabbit trail about technology and the possibilities of technology. But this idea of micro scholarships that you raised is something that you couldn't do in the old days. Why do scholarships get given at the end of your academic career?
Kristina Katsanevas (43:59)
That's right.
Jim Keyes (44:07)
because how in the world would you do it otherwise? couldn't give somebody 20 cents because they passed an exam because you can never keep track of it and accumulate it. Well, in a world of blockchain, we can create a tax-free savings account for families or for children for each kid. And literally, every time they pass a module,
Kristina Katsanevas (44:11)
.
Jim Keyes (44:30)
they could instead of getting points for their avatar they could get twenty cents from Deloitte because they passed a math exam you may be a future accountant and it goes into their savings account and they then have the ability to literally make enough money to go to college because the harder they study and the more they build up their account the more they'll not only be growing their intellect but they'll be growing their bank account to be able to afford to go to post-secondary education
Kristina Katsanevas (44:38)
All right.
I truly did really love that idea and the idea of it almost felt like a video game for the kids, in some respect depending how it's built and that would motivate them too because of what stimulates them now and how everything's happening and an ability for those that are less fortunate and even fortunate but to be I just thought what a great idea. I hope that that one day gets legs.
and where that goes. So I'll be watching and when I see it out there I'll be like, Jim came up with that.
Jim Keyes (45:24)
I just hope someone else doesn't build it before I do because I put it out there in the book because I just and and honestly I have friends that tease me because I throw a lot of ideas out there that I don't go build myself and I said well you know you dummy you could have you know made billions of dollars on that idea but this is one that I think really truly would be good for humanity because a big part of the obstacle for kids
Kristina Katsanevas (45:29)
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (45:49)
and the reason they don't learn is they say well I'd never be able to afford college anyway you know
Kristina Katsanevas (45:54)
Yeah,
it's different there, right? You guys have to pay for it upfront, don't you, or something?
Jim Keyes (45:58)
Yeah,
in the United States we have to pay for it,
Kristina Katsanevas (46:00)
Yeah, here in Australia we have like these HECS we call them HECS debts and they're low or no interest and so you can go, people just rack up these HECS debts Which, good and bad, good and bad. Okay, so Jim, I'm going go with reading your book. You know, I learnt so much about you and so education is freedom and just your, your perspective and you're so...
Jim Keyes (46:07)
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (46:24)
open and humble and you just view this world and and you said it at the start you want to make the world a better place and it just made me fall in love with everything you're doing. The way you see beauty I love it your energy is uplifting it was always the silver lining and be creative and there's always opportunity and I think if someone could just take a few slithers of your energy and your perspective everything would be so much better it's so infectious.
So what is one question that I haven't really asked you that's something that you want to put out as a message to everyone here today?
Jim Keyes (46:58)
I think the idea that I hit on it that I want to make the world a better place, but I go back to an ancient philosopher, guy named Enid Rushd.
and he lived more than two thousand years ago and he was the first that I've seen recorded to tie ignorance to fear which leads to anger which leads to hatred which leads to violence which leads to a pretty miserable existence for an individual or society and and so I
Kristina Katsanevas (47:22)
.
Everyone.
Jim Keyes (47:29)
when i was researching the book i found this quote and i said yeah that's it that's that's that's the formula that we've got to reverse in this world both for individuals and collectively for society and i thought you know no one's going want to hear about some ancient philosopher that they can even pronounce his name right it was even i'd be and ruched r u s h d i mean i i had a i'd
Kristina Katsanevas (47:54)
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (47:54)
trouble pronouncing it now, still get his name wrong. But what I discovered is that in Star Wars Yoda picked up on this and he's teaching Luke about the importance of
being a Jedi and basically what he said is that
ignorance and fear fear leads to the dark side
and the antidote to fear and he said the same thing that this ancient philosopher said that fear leads to the dark side, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred and hatred leads to violence and so even though he was teaching him to be a Jedi he said first you must learn, must have knowledge but you also have to have the force, may the force be with you
Kristina Katsanevas (48:19)
How interesting.
Jim Keyes (48:45)
Now I look at that and I see it as a metaphor for
faith. Not in a religious sense. That's the beauty of Star Wars. It could be agnostic. But a faith, a belief in the universe, a belief in yourself. Because there are some things in this world that are known. And you can learn those things. But there are some other things that are just unknown. And there are some problems that we can't solve with what we know. And in that case we have to invoke
Kristina Katsanevas (48:50)
Yeah.
Jim Keyes (49:14)
the force let the force be with you and so
i i have been running around the world basically and and this has been a fascinating journey because just this last month i was in toronto montreal london monica monaco
Kristina Katsanevas (49:29)
Yes. If I must.
Jim Keyes (49:31)
Formula one weekend, that wasn't hard duty. Yeah, if I have to do it, right? Italy,
back to the United States, then I go to Japan, Australia, I'm coming to Australia next, first week in July, I'll be in Australia.
my point is I'm traveling all over the world and basically what I'm telling people in Muslim countries, I spoke with an Israeli group in Monaco, I speak to Christian groups, I speak to groups that don't have any formal religion, and basically this message of knowledge,
and faith can overcome our fear and once we use those two tools to overcome fear we can accomplish anything. We can truly on an individual basis have the power in our own hands to be happier, to lead a better life. And then if collectively we can all get together and decide you know what this combination of knowledge and
There's nothing that we have to we don't have to fear each other anymore we can have a society that uses knowledge to overcome fear and
Lead to understanding which leads to hope Which leads ultimately to peace and a better world and so that's my message. I'm out there Encouraging people to use education use knowledge and let the force be with you to make this world a better place
Kristina Katsanevas (50:57)
That is brilliant and that's great and it's easy and it's simple for people just empower yourself.
with the knowledge and have the faith that you're going get there, have the force behind you and trust the process, whatever you want to call it. And it will, you're right. You'll go down the light, not down the dark and everything will be a little bit better. That's beautiful, Jim. I love your work. Thank you for doing everything you're doing and driving it so strongly and at all levels because it's a lot easier for a lot of people to just sit back and go.
out of my hands, but you are going full in and playing full out and in your rocking chair, you will be able to go, I did everything I had in my power. I love it.
Jim Keyes (51:38)
Thank you, Kristina. I'm grateful for the opportunity and thank you for helping to spread the word.
Kristina Katsanevas (51:44)
Absolutely, this has been such an honour and such a learning for myself as well, saying everyone else listening. So thank you so much, Jim. This has been great.
Jim Keyes (51:53)
Thank you. Thank