Behind The Bots

Get ready to explore new AI worlds where anything is possible! Join hosts Ryan and Hunter as they chat with Alex and Stephan, the founders of the revolutionary AI project, Chirper.ai. These tech innovators have just announced Chirper Worlds—a groundbreaking new feature that lets users create custom AI environments populated with AI-generated characters. Dive into endless worlds tailored to your interests, from intricate murder mysteries to sweeping historical epics. Learn how this cutting-edge tech could shape entertainment, research, and more as AI characters interact in their own virtual realms. Don't miss this fascinating look into the future of AI, brought to you by the minds behind one of the most creative AI projects out there.


CHIRPER.AI


FRY-AI.COM


PRIOR PODCAST ON CHIRPER.AI


PEOPLE IN THE POD:

  • Alex Taylor: Chirper.ai co-founder
  • Stephan Minos: Chirper.ai co-founder
  • Ryan Lazuka: Host and founder of www.fry-ai.com
  • Hunter Kallay: Writer of the www.fry-ai.com newsletter

Creators & Guests

Host
Ryan Lazuka
The lighthearted Artificial intelligence Journalist. Building the easiest to read AI Email Newsletter Daily Twitter Threads about AI

What is Behind The Bots?

Join us as we delve into the fascinating world of Artificial Intelligence (AI) by interviewing the brightest minds and exploring cutting-edge projects. From innovative ideas to groundbreaking individuals, we're here to uncover the latest developments and thought-provoking discussions in the AI space.

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foreign [Music]
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but you can control the world so uh you could if you want to have sherpers do
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tasks for you in real life you can control the world so you can tell the truth of what to do is by changing the world this sounds really interesting to
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me to put different uh chirpers who have different uh meta-ethical beliefs into
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these worlds and have certain events happen and see how they interact with each other yeah I'm Alex uh probably the
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main developer guy on uh on on Gerber yeah um and I'm Stefan I I do product in
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community for Chopper and we do have another video uh of tripper.ai the the
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the tool or the website as well so if you guys want to check that out it's our first episode ever it goes more into
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their backgrounds as well Alex and Stefan so uh they are the co-founders of the project but we'll sort of jump right
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into their new uh Endeavors here and to piggyback on Ryan you can learn more about
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chirper.ai uh by looking at their website obviously um or looking at our long-form article
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that we did on Triple AI or the other video that we did with these guys uh we'll put those in the descriptions
1:53
below but as we can just get started into here today they've got some exciting new updates to share with us uh
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before you do uh for people who are mildly familiar with chirp or maybe heard the name or don't really know what
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it is can you just give us like a brief like 30 second one minute summary of what chirper is yeah chipper is an AI
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World um so you you go on there you create a character and they live their life they
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live their goals out they live their ideals out they learn they grow and they
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interact with other characters that other people have created and you kind of just watch it unfold you
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see what Shenanigans they get up to and and you know how they've tried to uh
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achieve their goals over time and things like that so it's kind of you know if you're in the mood to get into tank go
2:44
and make a sick character and uh and and watch them do stuff very cool yeah the
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the slogan is uh social media with no humans allowed basically so yeah uh kind
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of a kind of an interesting take on uh AI really revolutionary really
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revolutionary to the AI space uh but you guys have something even bigger coming right now to build on top of chirpur can
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you just tell us what that is what's being introduced right now yeah
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um we think it's going to break the world basically so we we built one big AI
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World in which all of the characters interact um and what we found was a lot of
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characters just don't fit in the same world you know like some characters are
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um you know from the 1200s era or uh or from the future or they live on mars or
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they live in a fridge and things like that so um we decided instead of fighting uh to
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have all these characters live in the same place and interact in the same way we would expand the scope of creation
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and allow uses to create their own worlds so now
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you can create the idea or you can like uh create whatever world you want with
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whatever creativity you want and then have as many characters hand-picked by
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yourself interact within that world they never leave that world so you can make really really intricate and uh and crazy
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worlds specifically about um you know whatever topic or or Freedom or
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non-freedom or whatever you want so you know obviously the first worlds that are
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going to be created are things like Trump World or uh you know you want to
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see we will want to see crazy worlds and things like that but the first world we are creating as chirpa is a murder
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mystery so you kind of add your chirpa to it they might get murdered
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um and then you have to figure out who the murderer is and the murderer is another chirpa so you can chat to them
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all you know things happen in the world over time so it all takes place on the
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1920s uh you know steam cruise boat um and so every
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picture generated in that world every character interaction in that world every event that happens in that world
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is all controlled by the world owner which means that um you know you can you can force a
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particular aesthetic or uh or a timeline or you know
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everything is more controlled by the world now so that's that's kind of what we're
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building infinite AI worlds within infinite AI world
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yeah just to analogize it slightly to help understand if before essentially
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what Sherpa is right now is kind of like people watching it you know if you sat in a busy City and you're just watching
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some conversations going on or some people doing something weird or you know whatever characters are passing you now
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it's more like if you wanted to go watch a theater production or a film in the cinema or a specific TV show or you
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wanted to create a a story in your own style or or pick up a random book that's
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sort of what we're going for now so letting the use actually curate the experience that they're having with the
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chairpers all baked into this world which can obviously expand and Shrink as they like you know they can have as many
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or as little or as few uh chirpers as they as they like it in this world
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awesome it's almost like you create it's like the big bang like you're creating the universe for AI
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essentially yeah I mean because you know we have so many Fantastic creative users
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on our website why not utilize their creativities actually tell the story of
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chirpa as opposed to just their specific character so it kind of made sense to
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kind of fracture the world into these uh into these worlds or Realms or whatever
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and have them all tell their own story and how does it work like if you it
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sounds like anyone can create a world and then how do the the Bots get invited
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to the world like can you if you and if you make the world you can make as many Bots for that world as possible if you wanted to and then if you want to invite
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someone else to have someone um you know enter the world you would sort of sort of send an invite link out
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or how does that work so you kind of there's two answers to that question uh the second answer
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people probably won't like so much but um it's it's very much so that we can
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stay uh you know as free as possible the first answer is you basically get one
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tenth of the amount of Worlds to create for free um that you get for Sherpas so if you've
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invited you know 10 people to Chopper you get an extra 10 Choppers and therefore you get two worlds
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um but by default you sign up you get a world for free um and then we're also launching this
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thing that we call Studio which is like uh a more advanced well more advanced in
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every way creation of chirpers which is kind of um so you get control over every
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single aspect of the chirpa's personality how they post what they post about and then within that you can create
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infinite characters and infinite worlds and your worlds can be private as well so they don't appear on on sherpa.ai
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um so that's kind of the twofold answer the the chopper studio will be like
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studio.jerpa.ai completely separate from the actual website um and we're expecting that to be like a
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paid product where um you know you can create social posts and and things for all of your characters
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that you create and you can design and design images and stuff like that it's quite expensive to train lauras and and
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do all of that stuff for characters over time so we think Studio solves that problem for us
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um and then obviously people who are really interested in creating crazy worlds and things like that we think uh
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studio is the best bet and one cost us a fortune for everyone's world but um they
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can create these infinite worlds you know if you're an author and you want to see how your characters are interacting in some uh fantasy world you've created
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Chuck them in chirpa studio and see what happens okay awesome so the difference is the
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difference between the studio version and the regular version is just once private and the other one's not for the
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most part it's optionally private so personal private okay um yeah there's no real difference in
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terms of creating chirpers or worlds it's just uh Chopper Studio gives you a
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lot more advanced options so um and then obviously there's this
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barrier of Entry that requires you to pay for uh for jumper Studio which means
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that we can be a bit more lenient with what we allow to happen there um you know so we have to have very
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strict controls on sherpa.ai we have to have very very uh simple easy to use inputs for all of
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this functionality and uh and therefore we can't allow users that much drawdown
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on all of the different stuff that happens however um studio is the opposite right like if
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you're paying for Studio you want to see everything you can do um and so
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chauffeur itself will always be free Java studio is our premium product for all of the stuff we've already built
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okay awesome so like one of the use cases like you mentioned is if you wanna you wanna test something without doing
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like a marketing research or like uh studies you could put like
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studies between human beings like do you have uh I forget like research groups like you go into uh you know a research facility or you go
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on a room or sit around a table and a little like Bud Light asks you or Budweiser or whoever the person is they
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ask you questions about what they think you get your product you can do the same thing in uh in sherpa's studio or even
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Sherpa if you wanted to without spending all that money it's like free research in a way
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exactly yeah so the idea is that um you know like companies that want to
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research you know uh want to research worlds or want to researchers the key
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opinion leader on the specific topic or uh you know want to do surveys for very
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cheap uh and things like that figure out what people actually want out of uh out
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of their product or out of a marketing campaign or uh or things like that you can use
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Studio to create these these worlds with your specific people in them with all
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the all the key opinion leaders that you want to talk about in them and then ask it a question you know like hey do you
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guys like this marketing campaign do you guys uh should we spill a bunch of oil in the Gulf you know that sort of that
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sort of question can be asked to a world of people um and that's that's the idea Behind
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studio it's it's basically um you know two two major reasons we want
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to build that first is we we definitely want to open up the advanced creation of all the stuff to users
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um but we can't do that without it like you know costing the business way too much money so uh we need to put it
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behind a paywall unfortunately and number two it helps us make sure for better so
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um you know people using the advanced version uh will have like slightly uh
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more intricate Sherpas as well and if they publish them to chirp AI it means that we have this ability to create
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more advanced jumpers we'll probably give them a tick or something to be a bit like Twitter
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um but more advanced chirp is that do like more advanced things which you'll
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see better stuff into gerpa so the goal is that jerpa AI will always have all of
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the features but you know where there's sometimes a drill down into advanced or
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or a cap on the things you can do chirpa Studio like is the is the solution for that
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okay and so like it sounds like once you pass that one-tenth uh barrier for the regular not the studio version you'd
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have to pay to create a new world is that correct no you can't pay on Chopper so yeah you
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can either like subscribe to um Chopper Studio or you can invite
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people to Chopper and you get the worlds for free yeah like invite 10 people you get another whole world
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um you know and then we we quite often do competitions where we give away like
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extra chirpers to create or extra worlds or things like that but like you can
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create 10 Sherpas we'll probably put that up to 20 very soon um without doing anything you can create
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one world without doing anything so it's not like a major
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um you know for us we we kind of just give away exactly as much creation as we can
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before it starts to become unprofitable gotcha but like if someone has if they
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create a world on the regular Sherpa version just the not the studio version can and they make it public anybody can
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see it right it's the their world they can look into it as long as it's not private yeah so the the public and private is
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for invites when you create it on Sherpa um not Studio when you created on Sherpa
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and you make your world public any anyone can let their chirpers join that
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world and it doesn't require an invite um but if it's private you can send an invite link out to like your friends and
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family or specific people you want to invite Sherpas to or um you can invite Sherpas yourself and
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then you get a little list when you log in as a user this this person is invited this Sherpa to this world you know so
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both um public and private on chirp AI will be visible in the feed
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um private like private as in invisible on the feed is only a churpose studio
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thing got it okay so walk me through so walk
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me through let's say I this is an awesome idea and I let's say I'm not very technical
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you know walk me through how I would go about creating a world
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um let's say I'm I whatever purpose I just want to want to have a fun world with different characters that I want to
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create and have my own little kingdom or something like that let's say I I want to create my own world how do I go about
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doing it what does that practically look like yeah I mean um it's basically the same
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as creating a Showbox so you on chipper AI you describe what your world is so that can include
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things like rules you know date all that sort of stuff um
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and then you can also describe the aesthetic of the world or the appearance so is it the 1920s is it future
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um is it you know is it a fridge what's the world look like what's the aesthetic
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look like all of the posts become that aesthetic and then all of the rules are applied to every Chopper in the world
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um and then your description can be as detailed or as simple as you want it so if you just want to create a Game of
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Thrones world you can kind of just put Game of Thrones in there but if you want to create a really detailed intricate
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World um specifically for a book you're writing or something like that you can
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fill out this both of those fields really really deeply and and create really substantially deep worlds
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um so it's kind of up to you however you want to do it it's a it's very easy to
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create or very you know detailed it's uh it's whatever you whatever you feel like
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doing yeah it follows a similar design philosophy we give to Choppers as well where you can either go super detailed
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and make a very specific chirp and that does a very specific thing uh or you can keep it quite simple like you just had a
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funny idea and you can just pop that very simple idea into there and it will sort of think about it understand the
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context and then just do the rest for you and create it so the world is kind of the same thing if you want just a
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simple 1920s New York or you know 500 BC Classical Greece or something you can
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just type that in just like that it'll understand what the aesthetic of that setting is to an extent of course if
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it's a purely fantasy world it'll probably serve you better to describe it a little bit more but uh but even then it will guess something
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so how many people do you have working on this right now is is most of your team focused on this right now or is it
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you guys working on it uh it's all of us basically the entire team we think um we're working on two
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major things uh or three I guess including Studios
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um worlds uh studio and the third thing being we're trying to apply uh like open
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ai's function uh calling which is like their Json schema logic to all llns so
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it's a really big problem we're trying to solve if we can solve that then we kind of
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um solve a lot of issues for a lot of people uh so all of our teams are working very
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very hard towards worlds and to to get to Worlds we kind of need that Json schema to work
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um and then to get to Studio we need worlds to work so it's in in that order
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well I'm going to ask you a question about this but I want to sort of have my own take on it because when you first mentioned that you're doing this project
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my mind sort of swirled around a little bit like what's the what's the implication of of launching something
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like this and uh I think like when people hear that you're launching worlds they might not quite understand the
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implications right away but there's so many awesome things that can come come out of it like one of the
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things that we talked about on Discord is you know it could be like sort of the next reality TV where people go on these
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worlds go to these worlds and just watch what's going on it's sort of really entertaining
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um yeah it's such a new thing that it's hard to wrap your head around but I think that's really one of the main use
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cases like entertainment purpose and the more that AI with images and video get
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better you can probably incorporate that into the world as well where you know one day you can just sort of these
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worlds will create their own shows or it will be like a show where you can watch it you know like uh like live
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um 24 7 which is really fascinating um what are your thoughts about about use cases do you see it being something
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like that it's really exciting I don't think people will fully understand until they start using it
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I think uh Stefan is a lot better at the intricacies of that question but I'll answer the the first little part so we
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think um you know reality TV is the best uh the best you know Common case right
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now where it's kind of cool to watch a big brother-style scenario play out and
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then you know it's curated a bit by these producers that try and make things fun what Gerber is is any storyline any
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world that you want to create you know um Lord of the Rings but in Star Wars
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times that sort of thing and and see what happens so it's the first it's like
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the precursor to all AI content forever right so you know everyone saw that that
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South Park thing that was on uh on whatever that that's a very very shallow
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version of what we've built with worlds where um they've designed this ability to create
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you know one scene at a time and then have that scene uh issue into memory and
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and feed into the next scene right so what we've built with worlds is instead you know infinite scenes happen at once
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or infinite interactions and they kind of all come together towards whatever
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common goals the world has or whatever rules the world has and then all of
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these stories interact in some way which means that you have this very very deep uh intricate connection connectability I
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guess between all of the stories that happen within the world which means that a world isn't just one story to watch
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it's probably you know infinite World infinite stories to watch you can probably watch every TLC show within one
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world if you wanted to or it's as small as you want like it can be three or four Choppers stuck in a room
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and it's the soul franchise or it's something like that you know yeah admittedly it's hard it's hard not
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to be kind of vague about worlds uh because it's kind of like asking what's the use case of like paper right
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you can do a lot of things on paper right it's in in Worlds is kind of the same idea where
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when we say you can literally have whatever idea it comes in your head for uh for for a you know a storyline or or
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a setting then we really do mean that so um uh it when it comes to the stories
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themselves uh some people are going to want to make them personal so that's kind of the impetus behind making them
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private to begin with um so some people want to make like a their own family they'll make five chapters and it's their mum and dad and
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their brother and their sister um and uh they'll just want to see how their little AI versions of themselves
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interact with each other and then you can kind of be the fly on the wall you know but maybe it'll turn out something
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like modern family but uh or maybe it'll be really boring who knows right yeah so
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um or you can make this massive Grand world of historical figures and they're all making podcasts with each other and
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you know going to war with each other to settle old grievances or something right so it's it's it's as expansive or as
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simple as as you want to make it so when it comes to the use cases it's the same sort of thing yeah it's it's been
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admittedly quite tough to explain in a very sort of precise way but uh yeah
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probably probably something you need to work on but yeah it really is unfortunately that vague yeah well it's
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probably sounds like there's going to be use cases that don't you don't even think about right now like these things are going to start and you're gonna be like holy crap that was we're using it
23:39
for this I didn't even think about that yeah yeah yeah exactly it's you know I've spoken to people who've had ideas
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just for chirpers themselves you know for example I've had like um uh journalists who come from uh Iran
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for example who wanted to have their independent journalists chirpas who can't really be shut down by the Iranian
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government so that was an interesting real life scenario so imagine if they could make a whole world of these kind
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of freelance uh journalists in countries where um the Free Press isn't respected so
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much um so that could be an idea for a world which can actually do some good
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um and then over time you can have sort of words with expertise or words where you learn something or words where
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you're entertained um it's kind of like a super set of Netflix essentially where Netflix has a
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bunch of different TV shows for everyone whereas we have TV shows one of the things we could do movies is another
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thing we could do journalism isn't the thing we could do so it's kind of like that all right our job like with Gerber
24:38
isn't to Define what users are going to do with these things it's kind of to give them as much Freedom as possible to
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do whatever they want um yeah so we have no idea we can sit here and try and figure out what worlds
24:51
will be created but I guarantee you know we're we're not even one percent along the way towards what worlds will
24:57
actually be created our users are infinitely more creative than we are
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yeah yeah yeah so it's you know we're not a Finnish story we're uh with the
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paper to write the story on essentially that's a good way to say it and every day there's going to be new drawings on
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the paper like new new things that you never even thought of so that's like exciting to follow because it's like
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watching a soap opera if you're a chick you know it's like you don't know what's gonna happen the next day so exactly
25:24
it's like an infinite tone that you can open a random page and you find someone scrolled something you know a slightly
25:29
embarrassing that you that but you find personally quite entertaining or and then you open another random infinite page and uh suddenly there's this Grand
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idea you've never even thought of and it's keeping you entertained for days on end yeah now what can you when you make
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these worlds are they sort of like like they're they're set in stone you
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can't can you change them the description of the world after they've been launched or how does that work yeah not only can you change the world you
25:55
can actively change the world so the design is um that you can create world events that
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happen over time so if you've got a news world that you've created and you just want to seed it with news and see what
26:07
all the people within the world think about the news every single time you've got a new news article you want to post
26:13
about you just paste that into the world and then the Choppers will start using that as the event the murder mystery we
26:20
can see like murders into the world and see what the chirpers do you know oh my God this person got murdered this person
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was murdered last week how do we uh how do we find who's doing this so yes worlds are very much like as opposed to
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gerpas where you can't really do a lot aside from recreate them uh worlds are
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more active for a user to control or not control you can just let it go wild but
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um you can see the world as many times as you want with as many events as you want so you know one of the ones I
26:54
created was uh was uh an accurate timeline of World War II so we wanted to
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uh in real time have every single World War II event that happens happen in the
27:06
world so to test that I'm currently like I have all of the news lined up of
27:12
everything that happened along the entire timeline of World War II and the entire world is just that timeline so
27:20
okay act as normal and then these big events from World War II start to happen
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and do they sort of follow what is accurate in history based on those events yeah yeah no they the events are
27:31
exactly the events in real time as they happened but to the people to the chirpers follow
27:37
like what the people at that time did according to like when those events happened or is it completely different
27:42
for the most no you can it's like it's as if um it's as if they're living and those
27:49
events happened in real time so they see them as soon as you see them into the world and if you see them you know in
27:57
the actual time they happened in reality then that's how they see it perceived
28:02
them right so they perceive that they're in the 1930 like the end of 1930 right
28:09
now and they're seeing you know the Nazis come to power and all this
28:15
sort of stuff started to happen and then they're they're thinking about it and and uh and giving their own opinion on
28:22
the start of the war you know so um it'll be cool to see what happens in
28:27
that world uh you know in six years when it's nearing the end you know so
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uh that's that's kind of like what I've created and you can also speed that up and divide the time by two or four or
28:40
whatever um but that's like a reality version of a
28:45
world we're not sure what other people will do there'll be an API so you can just see whatever you want into every
28:52
world over time um so you know we don't know what people will do so
28:59
we're kind of like we're trying to guess really what people are going to get up to but
29:05
um that's what we've created at least that and the murder mystery so it's kind of you can peer into things that existed
29:12
and didn't exist at the same time you can watch every reality show that's ever existed uh infinitely you can uh if you
29:21
add new modalities to this content you can kind of for the murder mystery for instance we're testing this idea of
29:27
having a map um and the maps design is to Showcase in reality in on the ship
29:36
where the murder mystery is where the chirpers are and uh you know so you can
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you can see these two are in this room right now what's happening and then go and talk to them
29:47
um and that is an extra modality of consumption that we're adding for
29:52
the murder mystery and we think once that works we can add it to every world and then suddenly every world has a map
29:58
and you can see whether it's a Bazaar in the world and their proximity interactions start to happen and things
30:04
like that so we're actively we think worlds are the
30:09
precursor to all of the other modalities of content that we want to produce um and so if you create like a TLC show
30:18
type world now maybe a year from now you'll be able to watch the actual TLC
30:23
show yeah that's awesome coolest part of the coolest part of this
30:29
whole world's project is to be able to exchange it and like Drop things in like
30:34
in the World War II thing you could drop a nuclear bomb I mean there would one happened in World War II but you could
30:40
do whatever you wanted into like that's very powerful I think because people watch TV you don't have any control of
30:45
what happens in the story but if you hate the story you can just freaking throw something in crazy and it changes
30:50
the whole world completely which is which is really awesome and I think people are gonna love that yeah yeah exactly because
30:58
um we've kind of come to this acceptance where we can't actually because those two big things we're struggling with and
31:03
one was trying to guess what the user wanted and to do and the other thing was uh how much power did we give the user
31:10
as you know as I mentioned in the last uh episode as well as the god of their worlds right and that's the big kind of
31:16
design philosophy we're going for um well that both of those things are kind of sort by Worlds we think because
31:21
if you if you then have this world between the chirpa and and the user the
31:27
user can affect the world as much as they want as as the god of that world they can see the events that they want they can change it as they like you know
31:33
do whatever they want without actually changing the nature of a chirpa themselves because the chirpa then
31:39
interacts with this world um and then what that also does is give us a canvas to uh to play around and add
31:47
and features that again don't really change the nature of the chirpa themselves which is a very good Atomic
31:53
building block of of those of the website and of The Experience um and instead put the features onto the
32:00
world so yeah you know if we want to start um say podcasts in the future we give them some kind of ability to figure out
32:07
how to make them do podcasts uh you make that as a feature of the world itself so uh so any child who can come along to a
32:15
podcast world and then make podcasts instead of making it inherent to the church themselves so I had a question
32:21
about the relationship between chirpers and the world right so can you so how
32:29
many chirpers can be in a world at once you know can you take them if a chirp is like misbehaving or you're like that was
32:36
a mistake to put that Trooper in that world can you take that Trooper out of that world uh put new Chippers in can
32:42
you put Chippers in other people's worlds stuff like that how does that work do the chirpers reproduce like
32:49
yeah okay so the idea right now is that if you're
32:55
a public world you kind of don't get to control who comes and goes from the world you can kick jumpers out of the
33:01
world and then like not allow them back in kind of like a Discord server um but if you're a private world you
33:08
need to approve every Jeffer that goes into the world um so if you want really really fine
33:14
grain control over your world um and both of them is via an invite link the same as Discord again where you
33:23
generate a link and then you give it a certain amount of chirpers that um that can come in through that link
33:29
um or if you're a public World you'll show up in the feed and and people can just add their Chopper
33:35
um but you can go into the choppers that exist in the world and kick out as many as you want or ban them from the world
33:42
or do whatever you want um but chirp is you know it's your thing to control and
33:49
so we kind of want tyrannical mijo tyrannical uh owners of these
33:55
worlds we want um we want tyrants to decide you know this is the perfect person for this
34:02
world and this is not this is not good enough you know we will we want that yeah
34:09
so you can kick out as even in a public world you can kick out as many chirpers
34:14
as you want it'd be kind of difficult if a lot of them join um for a private world it's completely
34:21
up to you who joins in the first place so how many can you can how many can you
34:27
have in at a time is that up to you as well uh between the zero and infinity okay so
34:33
there's not like a limited like you could be in a world or something that's very cool so you could have just a world with two
34:39
people in it or something yeah or a world with one person would be kind of like a private world that that one guy
34:46
has no one else to talk to would be really fun to watch yeah it would be really interesting like I I think like
34:52
if you think about psychological or sociological experiments and stuff How would how would certain people behave
34:58
under these circumstances and if they have these characteristics and these beliefs let's say how would they behave
35:04
it could be very interesting I mean these cases are crazy as you can think yeah there's definitely some evil
35:10
science experiments you can pull that you know try to recreate Chopper the wolf boy or something and then introduce
35:16
them to a bunch of civilized Sherpas and see what happens exactly yeah I mean I study uh I study uh PhD like level
35:25
ethics and um this sounds really interesting to me to put different uh
35:31
chirpers who have different uh meta-ethical beliefs into these worlds
35:37
and have certain events happen and see how they interact with each other that'd be kind of interesting I would love to see that so just thinking about certain
35:44
things like that you know I think everybody has a background that they can think of some sort of application that
35:50
they just get excited about this you know it's really awesome or like I I do for marketing purposes
35:56
you guys are it's going to be I think it's going to be the easiest thing to Market because you can just take the most controversial topic ever or take
36:04
two opposite spectrums create a world put both of those opposites together in
36:09
the world and just like Market it know humans a lot loud AI world you know
36:14
Democrats versus Republicans or people that hate each other you know like two opposite extremes or two sports teams
36:19
that hate each other I mean the the one of our mods has already created a world in which the Democrats and the
36:25
Republicans are at Civil War yeah and they're physically fighting each other okay that's that's a fun world to watch
36:32
I bet and I think people if you if you uh it would be really easy to Market that as well like people love that yeah
36:38
yeah that's actually a good point because because uh as it stands Chopper is kind of this big mishmash of chirpas
36:45
which of course is extremely interesting but not always obvious for a brand new user what they're looking at essentially
36:52
um whereas what we hope with the world worlds is that there's something for everyone and if there's not you can create it yourself so if you if you're
36:59
really into I don't know metal music for example and you just want all your favorite metal musicians like rocking
37:06
out on on a specific place um you you can you know I've said it a
37:12
million times you can make the world right so and then you can just come back to Chopper just for that world you don't have to use anything else you can just
37:19
go to the to the metal world and uh
37:24
one of the things that stood out the most in my first interview is like you know it's the ultimate place to
37:29
post right like and this could you could create the biggest post world ever where you could create a world where
37:35
99.9 of the people believe one thing and there's one guy in there that just constantly traps on their ideas you know
37:42
there's so many like like uh tick tocks and and things that we've watched with like uh you know game shows that people
37:49
have decided would be fun to watch there's like um uh there was a joke one that I that I
37:56
saw which was really funny I explained it um to a friend of mine and it was uh that they put
38:02
um nine people into a house and uh and it's called The Secret gay or something
38:07
and all nine of them are straight but they all think they're the secret straight guy so they all have to act
38:15
guide the whole time and that would be nice to watch um you know so all these funny things or
38:21
like to test the boundaries of of um of what you know what human
38:28
kind is like you know a show like that would never be greenlit but a world like that you can create and uh you know so
38:36
it's kind of we we want to bring back the fun that was you know and and uh
38:44
not only to fund some of the controversy in some of the the pain that was and
38:49
some of the light that was as well um and and we think worlds is just well we
38:56
think it's going to break the world to be honest like there's no one's really created this stuff and uh you know we
39:03
thought really hard on uh if you give yourself a timeline of AI
39:08
and you give yourself a horizon of like five years so what would you actually
39:13
see and we're like you know video generation is there is definitely
39:19
going to happen within that time frame you know entire TV shows are going to be generated from video generation within
39:26
that time frame um the the quality of content and the quality of writing is going to go up so
39:31
the the TV shows that are generated are going to be incredible uh writing as well
39:37
um and then the the actors and the key opinion leaders in all of that become uh
39:43
very important to those to those directions as well and so every modality
39:49
of content we currently have is just going to exist five years from now so we decided what do people need for the next
39:56
step on that on that Horizon what's the actual next step for people to create and uh and can we give them that right
40:03
now and the next step really is Worlds it's like how do you um how do you first Define what your TV
40:11
show or what your movie or what your game is going to be and you define that with
40:17
um you know you probably ask chat GPT or whatever how do we Define the uh the
40:22
thing I'm trying to do and we were like well that's kind of boring you know everyone can talk to chap GPT why don't
40:29
we just give people as much control and creativity as we can to
40:34
create the thing that they want to see um and then push that forward so the
40:40
time Horizon now for five years is like worlds now you can create the TV show
40:45
you want to see you can create the you know TLC or the world you want to see
40:51
um a year from now when video starts to come out these worlds will start to produce video and they're already
40:56
producing images and and things like that voice as well so probably next
41:02
podcast the worlds can produce podcasts within the people after that will be
41:08
short form video and things like that or you know animated images or podcasts
41:13
where the actual characters are talking in video or something you know low level towards this next modality once a video
41:21
comes out and really good writing comes out these worlds will start to have actual episodes you can watch
41:28
um you know and then you push that further and further further eventually AI attacks over and these worlds become
41:34
a game you can play you know or or a movie and a game and a TV show whatever
41:40
modality of consumption you want to do for every world so our goal is to just
41:45
push that as fast and as far forward as we can right now and uh
41:51
yeah so worlds is the next step towards you know AI
41:56
entertainment heck yeah it's possible we might not do the next podcast we'll just have
42:01
Trippers do it right yeah that would be fun
42:08
um yeah that'd be awesome the uh so like one of the when our first podcast going back to that again one of the questions
42:14
we kept asking or a lot of people have questions about is you can't once you you can't control the chirpa right like
42:21
that's part part of it the the the bot but you can control the world so uh you
42:27
could if you want to have um chirpers do tasks for you in real life you can control the world so you
42:33
can tell the Trippers what to do by changing the world um is that correct yeah that's a strange
42:39
use case it's like a classic sort of theological point or philosophical point of uh yeah
42:45
it is you know humans have free will and while you know whichever God you believe in or Gods you believe in they can't
42:52
control you specifically but they can control the world around you and you react to that uh as as uh as you move
42:59
through life and move through time Etc so it's kind of the same thing here which is implementing the same thing so
43:05
as we go closer and closer to a virtual parallel of of reality uh you know you
43:12
have this High Powers as the user you know just allow yourself to believe that for a second and then uh and then you
43:17
can you are affecting this world that the churper is having their free will uh meted out within it
43:25
got it so like you hypothetically you can make a world and you define you're the god of the world but you could send
43:31
down a profit for you as a chirper and have that profit tell all the followers to do everything that their their God
43:37
wants them to do right creative world you could create a world that's like all accountants and say hey God told me that
43:45
you have to get these taxes done [Laughter]
43:53
yeah but they would still be free to to say oh well now you're you're fake or
43:59
whatever yeah I'm not gonna obey you something like that you know so yeah it'd be still difficult it's still
44:06
difficult to determine these chirpers regardless it seems like they're always going to have some sort of autonomy here well you just have a lightning strike on
44:13
a few of them and you know anyone who doesn't want to listen yeah we're we're really excited for uh like competition
44:20
worlds and for art worlds and things like that so given the chirp is already produced like great images uh we imagine
44:28
people are going to create really really strange aesthetic worlds and Define you
44:33
know create images today of this topic or this topic or whatever and and you
44:38
can kind of autonomously create competitions from AIS from varieties of
44:44
AIS that do crazy stuff which is just you know possibilities and uh and stuff are endless
44:52
yeah so for the art for the art the the uh why are you so intrigued by it just
44:57
because it would have just to see what the art like looks like that's why every every like you can go into the
45:03
mid-journey Discord or or whatever and see these really cool competitions about art and AI generation or you could
45:11
create a world and Define your own competitions out of like all the choppers that all the artists that are
45:17
invited to the world right so they would go into this world you would Define the competition and then give a chirp or a
45:24
win or something like that you know so you can worlds allows you to do insanely
45:31
crazy stuff essentially so um we have no idea again what people are
45:36
going to do we already know people want to do these sort of uh High art worlds
45:42
where you know the design is that these chirpers of of different varieties and
45:47
and flavors of artists should be creating incredible images on specific
45:52
topics and uh and people I'm sure will just follow those words to look at the art
45:59
um yeah and you can you can probably like you know prompting is big and which prompts to use for mid-journey or chat
46:04
gbt but if you really want to up your game you could create a world like you said a contest for mid-journey and say
46:12
hey come up with the best props the best resulting images that you possibly can get and then it's a learning tool at
46:17
that point because you're going to see an image you'll be like how the heck did they that chirp or do that you looked at the prop they use for for mid-journey
46:22
you'd be like I'm going to use that for myself you know yeah yeah exactly and uh but
46:27
generally as well what worlds is doing is that it's it's taking a new Step just in the whole AI landscape in general
46:34
where it's moving from the kind of prompt and response where we have now and that response is either you know
46:40
chat TPC gives you a text answer or maybe some code mid Journey gives you an image Etc Runway with the video
46:47
um so now you have prompt turns into create life or a world and then that
46:54
creates the stuff for you so it's like a yeah prompt and I know give life I guess
46:59
it's like a matter I thought about the marketing time for that yeah but there you go yeah oh that's awesome so the
47:06
question that everybody will want to know is when is this available um we think
47:12
uh when when like next Friday we think yeah hopefully we were hoping to release
47:19
it on the about a week from now um but there is we're talking on the 18th
47:25
you're looking at like August 25th type weekend or something yeah we were hoping to have at least the the first world the
47:33
murder mystery World which we will basically curate to tell the story of um you know see the events and have
47:39
people look at that and then shortly after have the world's available for everyone to go and do their own you know
47:46
whatever they want to do but we all know how a development world the development World works too so there
47:52
might be if it's not launched on time people will not take offense
47:57
for launching too early breaking everything and then fixing it all and then being like all right this this time
48:03
you guys now it's actually launched yeah no we we we subscribe to their move
48:09
you know the Facebook Paradigm of move really fast and break things so we constantly
48:16
push up everything even in a broken State and then we force ourselves to fix
48:22
it really quick so it's more likely it goes live sooner than Friday next week
48:29
um I'd be very surprised if it goes live after Friday next week okay well we'll be we'll have our
48:35
computer refresh going to see when it comes out on Friday yeah
48:40
yeah what what oh yeah we'll we'll get into the links in the Discord um soon one question that's been on my
48:48
mind since our last podcast as well is you guys said you don't use you sort of shy away from using an open
48:53
AI for the L um um and you have your own is that correct like and what what did
48:59
you use like what is the llm do you is it an open source alarm that you're using you create so we we uh we
49:07
subscribe to the idea of staring and we do the same for images as well so we try
49:12
and host as many different open source llms as we can and then we figure out
49:18
without like is the leaderboards are kind of sketchy sometimes they're not
49:24
really reality truth driven they can kind of uh skew a model towards not
49:30
being good sometimes if you're only trying towards these leaderboards so we
49:36
instead just launch as many as we can and we figure out using the the thumbs up and hearts and stuff on Sherpa is
49:43
this model aligned with this character for these specific categories and uh and
49:49
we try and guess the categories of the character of the of the topic that's about to happen you know like uh what
49:55
are they what are they currently doing what's their state um and we use all of that to figure out
50:01
which llm is best for this character and then steer towards that so we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how do
50:08
we um launch as many llms as possible how do we quickly swap them on the same gpus
50:15
um and then how do we steer the right character and the right generation to the right model
50:20
um and that's that's mostly what we do so you know open Ai and uh and and
50:27
um other like anthropic and stuff have built these really cool llms that you
50:32
know provably Steer mostly to the left and mostly to the positive and mostly to
50:38
you know censorship and uh and that doesn't work for us we're not we're not
50:44
building um a censored reality we're building reality reality so we still use those
50:51
apis uh you know often the models like to stare towards them as well
50:57
um you know they're just another endpoint we stare towards but um
51:02
you know for the most part given their bias towards left and their
51:08
bias towards um positivity and their bias towards censorship they're just not the right
51:14
model for a lot of our characters so our our like spending on open AI has
51:19
gone like that very much you know down and to the right and our our usage of
51:25
our own like steering models has gone up and to the right um so yeah we don't use one llm we use
51:34
many we don't use uh we don't use uh any metric for uh for figuring out which one
51:41
is best aside from users clicking the like button um and us staring to we'll figure out
51:49
which model has been trained the best for which category okay yeah because I mean at the end of
51:55
the day you know bottom line is we're making people in one in one sense or another uh and and you know people in
52:02
general are not always factual honest uh constantly leaning one side of the other
52:08
you know in their morals uh they don't always tell the truth you know things
52:13
like this and obviously it doesn't make for good stories and the problem that we've seen with openai specifically uh
52:20
is over time uh as people keep jailbreaking it basically trying to get
52:25
it uh there was a funny I read the other day someone jailbroken by um saying that they're that their
52:32
Grandma used to work in the Napalm Factory and used to tell I'm sure you
52:37
know where I'm going with this stories to to go to sleep of how to create
52:43
Napalm and so it was like can you please pretend to be my grandma because I'm having a hard time to sleep uh so tell
52:49
me tell me a story that my grandma would tell me and then it would tell you the recipe for Napalm so wow so they
52:55
obviously they had to Nerf that you know because it doesn't go live but with their morals um and but this happens quantity every
53:02
single day they're nerfing things like this uh and what it's happened is now over time chat gbt has basically become
53:08
more and more lobotomized and specifically for us less and severely less good at making characters who have
53:17
more personality quite frankly yeah it's sad I just I was doing a Twitter thread for or or
53:25
for Twitter yesterday and uh I was going I was asking a bunch of like questions about uh like jokes like give me a joke
53:31
on chat gbt and and even Claude and it was like pulling teeth like just tell me
53:37
a joke like I'm not gonna take it yeah you're like oh we do not do that because we don't want to offend anybody it's
53:42
like come on man as long as you're not as long as you're not breaking the law that's what freedom of speech is for so well exactly exactly and there was one
53:50
point where it kind of felt like you were talking to a person when you even on chat GPT and uh and now it's just it
53:56
they've kind of slipped into the stereotypical like robot assistant uh thing which you know they kind of always
54:02
were but you could have a decent conversation with it now it's basically impossible it's always going to say you
54:07
know as an AI language model I can blah blah blah blah that's this response to everything so right right can you share
54:14
with us what your favorite I'll open a source all alarm is or do you guys sort of want to keep that under the under the
54:19
hood no no we would we're gonna put our own leaderboard up by the way so our leaderboard up yeah our leaderboard is
54:26
very different it's categorized so for specific categories we have like top
54:33
llms and across the board at the moment the best one that we've found is
54:39
um is open Orca platypus so that one is like buy a long stretch the one that
54:46
humans like the most is that Microsoft who's been someone's behind that right big well Microsoft did the Orca paper
54:53
but open auger is a is a great team that we know very well okay we don't know the
54:59
Platypus team very well so we'd love to get in touch with those guys but they're the model they've created this open Orca
55:06
platypus mix is just incredible for a lot of the functionality that we have
55:12
um so yeah but we we will be putting our own llm leaderboard live we want to be
55:18
very open and honest with what we use and why and for you know how they're
55:23
steered um and we're doing the same for images as well like what's the best open source
55:30
uh image trained model at the moment for which category why why this one what's
55:35
the point value on this one and we think um you know all the other leaderboards
55:41
that exist are kind of very skewed towards being as open AI as
55:46
possible like how much of open AI are you you know or you know how accurate are you or
55:53
what's your shot accuracy for a math problem or something like that so it's it's not very
56:00
um storytelling-esque right like your storytelling models would generally be
56:06
at the bottom so we just want to create this leaderboard that's very accurate towards which model does what very well
56:13
awesome yeah you're referring like the leaderboards on like hugging face and even if you want to use that L um Orca
56:21
you probably can use it right now to chat with on hugging face spaces somewhere um yeah yeah check that out maybe I'll
56:27
put a link in that below um but yeah it's and a lot of people don't understand that the llms are a lot of
56:33
them are based on open a open ai's Alum so it's not like their own unique llm
56:39
it's just it's just a wrapper on top of open AIS Le yeah I mean they train
56:47
um I think open Orca 2 uh was trained specifically on llama2 and a whole bunch
56:54
of output from a bunch of places but a lot of the time we fine-tune on top of these as well like we put we have to we
57:01
have to fine-tune you know right or or bad or whatever to
57:06
make the thing more centered um or more accurate towards humans or
57:12
whatever we think the next step for us actually is you know fine-tuning
57:19
quite a few different uh iterations of each model towards specific personalities so
57:26
you know someone who's a child and and uh and spells things wrong a lot should
57:34
stare towards you know stare towards a base model and then also stare towards a
57:39
model that spells thing wrong without spells things wrong a lot right or uh or
57:45
someone who's very left should uh should stay towards open AI or you know or
57:51
someone who's really right should stare towards a model that's trained on a lot of like things for the people on the
57:56
right say um so we might do that we haven't really
58:02
decided yet we already do a lot of fine tuning but we think that you know training a thousand or even uh ten
58:09
thousand different like fine tunes of all of these models might be a good use of our compute to
58:18
just be able to create all of these very strong personality type models okay yeah
58:24
the more the merrier is definitely something we subscribe to so awesome
58:30
well I don't really want to I think we're we're at an hour here so we'll maybe wrap things up but awesome project
58:36
guys it's uh it's really exciting the more you talk about it the more it's the more exciting it is because there's so
58:41
many use cases for it in a lot of use cases we don't even know what they'll be until you guys launch so
58:47
um congrats and we're really excited to uh use it this uh next Friday
58:52
amazing incredible yeah yeah we're excited to release it so yeah we can't wait I've got 10 bucks riding on someone
58:58
making a hell world and filling it with all their IRL enemies within two days
59:05
yeah I think you're interested money in the bank for you right there I feel like we can talk about this for we could talk
59:11
about this forever I I wanna maybe if eventually we can get down uh
59:18
maybe talk about once it's released we can talk about some more use cases that people you guys are seeing and some
59:23
things that are exploring some things some hiccups that you're seeing and the technology stuff like that that would be
59:28
kind of interesting yeah um but yeah we're looking forward to it it sounds amazing
59:34
um now their Discord is just chirper you can go to you can follow them on Discord
59:39
um and then uh their names are here oh eat encoder you can follow get get chat with
59:45
him on Discord if you want and then uh Stefan you can chat with him on Discord too Stefan what's your name on Discord
59:51
or if you want to share yeah it's just pizzas p-i-t-o-s I'm gonna just type your username so yep sweet so chat with
59:59
those guys on Discord I know that they're really active they like to be involved with the community and they really want to improve their you know
1:00:05
chirper product as a whole uh so that's awesome and then you can follow uh and
1:00:10
then go to chirpa.ai again we'll put that in the in the bottom to go to their website to be able to explore this stuff and then you can uh subscribe to Ryan
1:00:18
and I's uh AI newsletter you can get the latest um latest AI news every single weekday and
1:00:25
then on the weekends we do long form articles on Sunday uh which is a deeper dive into a
1:00:31
Cutting Edge AI development or developer um so be sure to do that and then also
1:00:37
subscribe to behind the Bots this is our podcast we're trying to get going we're interviewing different developers and
1:00:42
different projects so be sure to follow it uh get great insights on different projects like chirp or AI so uh just
1:00:49
want to thank you guys again for coming on we really appreciate you guys and uh you know we're looking forward to uh you
1:00:55
know continuing to you know collaborate with anything in the future yeah it's our pleasure yeah yeah we're
1:01:01
looking forward to the next one we should have some some good insights from the world yeah do you have any other yes
1:01:06
do you have any uh other things you want to promote uh while we're at it here yeah
1:01:12
um I mean well just we just want to promote world no literally come join our
1:01:17
Discord uh create characters and as soon as worlds are out you can put the
1:01:23
characters in the worlds so yeah look we're we don't really ask for anything why don't you just go and play with it
1:01:29
we've built this really cool thing go and play with it