Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Wayfarers are Experts & Investigators Navigating the Reality of What it is to be Human with Evidence & Experience: Fruits > Faith
Kristin is a Relationship Investigator, Former Teacher & Human Development Specialist
Matt is a Criminal Trial Attorney, Former Prosecutor & Advocate for Juveniles
H.C. “Hil” is a Criminal Investigator, Veteran, Retired FBI Agent & Cactus Expert
PIETY & NERVOUS SYSTEM WARNING - SOMETIMES WE USE RUDE WORDS! Topics include Drugs, Sex, Death & Violence and also Abuse, Neglect, Abandonment & Betrayal.
We use raw and vivid imagery and choose words that explore what is real.
Is the Mormon church, as an institution, a pro social organization? My buddy over here, the apologist, says absolutely that's his evidence, his fruits for Mormon theology. I take the other position. I say, nah, it's not. And I believe I can prove it historically, legally, and morally.
Matt:And we're gonna look at a couple eras in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints history. The first is between about 1830 and 1904, give or take. The second one, part two, coming soon, is, oh, after that, but especially 1950 to today, 2025. And when you put the chronology of their history and the existing record, legal record, together, it will obliterate this apologist's position on their theology and on his claims that they're a pro social organization. And I only need thirty minutes to do it and this dude needed two hours of gobbledygook to confuse and confound.
Matt:When we look at what a pro social group is, we should ask, what does that even mean? Well, I think it means a number of things. He suggested it means that they are, have more happiness, that they have longevity, they have all these life beneficial qualities. And I'm arguing, taking the other position. No, they are a particularly antisocial people.
Matt:And they're antisocial in that they are mentally ill. They are spiritually unwell. And what that ultimately means is they are developmentally R worded. It's the right word. It's a defensive word and I get that, but it does mean something philologically.
Matt:It means something in music. It means something in education, especially early education. It means something in the courts and it means something developmentally. And so I'm saying that they are antisocial because they are sexually, spiritually, cognitively, psychologically and socially, which is to say relationshipally unwell. And they are not the type of people that one should aspire to being like.
Matt:If they're interested in things like happiness and bonded intimate relationships and amazing sex among other things. I like their no alcohol, no smoking thing. Their god is a real problem in the world, as is their law firm. A real good question is instead of saying pro social, I ask, are they a moral organization? And I take the position that no, in fact they're not because of their their ideology and their idealizing of the men that they think are super good guys or prophets.
Matt:The Mormon Avengers, these these men throughout history that they say are spiritual giants, starting with Joseph Smith Junior transitioning to Brigham Young and leading all the way to this new modern dude, Doctor Prophet, Russell M. Nelson, global faith leader. And the history leading from 1830 in Joseph Smith to 2025 in Russell Nelson and the way these men use the law and governmental power to do the thing that they do. So let's start. Excuse me.
Matt:March 8 March of '18 '30, the Book of Mormon is published. Now, make no mistake, this Book of Mormon isn't just published, it is published and sold. You see, this is a money making transact, you know, endeavor. Now, I'm not saying they were there to make money, but I'm saying they it's not that they were there to not make money. But that's a small thing.
Matt:It's a nerf size criticism. After the Book of Mormon was published, 04/06/1830, because you have to have a mechanism with which to sell your book, L. Ron Hubbard taught us that. The church became a legal entity. Legal entity is The United States Of America is really just another way to say a legal fiction.
Matt:Right? What are you talking about? We're talking about charities, corporations, law firms, these types of things. Because really a church in America, as my wife says, is simply when a charity, a corporation, and a law firm conspire and get together to benefit off the labor of its member donors. That's what a church is.
Matt:Now in 1831, TBD. Something happens or something happened in 1831 that we won't really know about until closer to the end of, well, the end of the story of part one. In 1832, for the first time, this man Joseph Smith Junior, at least documents his first his first vision account. And this is his first first vision account. Now in the in the interview of Alec O'Connor, they talk about this a lot.
Matt:And what happened between 1832 and 1838 when the official there was a long talk about this and I'm sitting there just dumbfounded. So this is these are two guys that really don't know either one guy that doesn't know enough about Mormonism and one dude who either doesn't know his history or is lying about his history or doesn't isn't able to contextualize his history. But here, he sees the Lord. Right? Now, one being is it's clear.
Matt:There's not two separate beings as comes later. This is the Lord. And if you think about it, it's consistent with Joseph Smith Junior's theology and understanding in, right, this 1830 in 1832. Because the Lord, right, is Yahweh. Is the one God who is made flesh.
Matt:Thus making Jesus both fully man and fully God. And that is an important theological principle in Christianity. See, it's there is why most Christians just simply say Mormons aren't Christian because at some point, Joseph gives another version where he talks about two persons. That's a lot of time they spent and it was just mind numbing. And and and and anyway, I'll clarify.
Matt:Now, 1835 to 1836. Oh, I'm sorry. 11/09/1835. The second First Vision happens and is documented and this is the first time that he saw two physical persons. And you're like, Man, what happened between 1832 and 11/09/1835 that would cause such a just fundamental shift in the theology of this man such that he would break with all of Christendom and say that there is two beings and one is the father and the second is the son.
Matt:Thus giving rise to more of a polytheistic philosophy and theology, whatever could happen. Man, if only we knew, we know. See, because in 1835 to 1836, something bad happened in Oz. Something bad. What was that thing?
Matt:Known as the Fanny Alger incident. Google it, look it up. It's an interesting and heartbreaking story. There are no heroes in that one. Who is Fanny Alger you say?
Matt:Joseph was, what do the kids say, banging her and his wife found out. And one of his buddies called it a nasty little affair because as the report is, she a domestic help. And when Emma found out, she threw her down the stairs. So we have sex, we have violence, we have betrayal. Just the Fanny Alger incident is a tragedy at a minimum.
Matt:A comedy depending on who tells it and what your tastes are, I suppose. But that's what's going on right around the time that he feels compelled to tell this story again and say that there are two personages, two physical beings. How can one know a thing? All right, in 1838 to 1839, the fourth First Vision account and it's the official version of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in the Pearl of Great Price. Now, the thing about Joseph, right, is he's not just a prophet.
Matt:He's a city builder, community builder, but a city builder. He understands the power of legal entities in The United States Of America. So in 'thirty eight, 'thirty nine, between 'thirty and 'thirty eight, he's building cities. He's leading cities. See, because with Joseph Smith, he's not just a prophet, he's also a mayor.
Matt:And sometimes he's the head of militias. And sometimes he's the head of a bank and just decides that he, that is the Lord, tells him that he's got to print money. And so in addition to the Lord, God, Father, or the Son, I think, talks to him. Right? Yeah.
Matt:The Son talks to him. You can see Jesus is the God of this world, but not the great, great God. There's a grand Poohba God, which is the father, this physical dude, the governor of Kolob. Right? And Jesus, the son, who's Yahweh, Jehovah, the Lord, he's the governor of earth essentially.
Matt:That's the thing about Joseph, is he's the leader of government and he should always be the leader of government. And because of this, and both real just, you know, politics are nasty games, The Missouri governor issues executive order 44 known as the extermination order saying that Mormons, the Mormon people need to be driven from Missouri and not continue, Right? Now, they also have a place in Ohio. That's tied in there. I'm not going to get into that.
Matt:And then 10/30/1830 is a thing called Hans Mill Massacre. And this is an absolute tragedy. This is a horrible, heartbreaking thing. All tragedy, no comedy. And, you know, F Wilbur Boggs because this should have been handled and this state should not have allowed this type of killing to go on.
Matt:But at some point, the Mormons do leave and they go to Illinois and move in 1839 to a place called Nauvoo, Illinois. There, they establish a city. And now, they are refugees from Missouri and Illinois is sensitive to that and they're allowing them and a part of them having a city charter developing municipalities. Guess who the mayor is? You guessed it, this is the city of Joseph and it's Joseph Smith, he's the mayor.
Matt:Guess what? Do they have a militia? You ask. Matt, do they have a militia? They do have a militia.
Matt:Who's the head of it? Oh, not Joseph Smith. He's actually the lieutenant general of the militia. Right? Okay, cool.
Matt:Do they have a newspaper? Sure do. They do have a newspaper. Who's in charge of that? Yeah, him too.
Matt:So it's a city with this dude who has all types of hats. Right? Some may call such a thing a theocracy. Who are those people? Me.
Matt:I'm those people. So they moved to Notho. Now, something really fascinating happens. Joseph Smith Jr. Prophet speaks to Jesus and Jesus tells him directly in 07/04/1843 in DNC, the Doctrine and Covenants, 01/1932 about a new and everlasting covenant of plural marriage.
Matt:And this is really important. I can't tell you how important this is to men like Joseph Smith junior, Brigham Young, Dallin H. Oaks, Russell M. Nelson. This is a really, really, really, really important principle to a lot of the men between Brigham Young and Russell M.
Matt:Nelson and a lot of the other leaders that they identify as prophets or prophets and apostles. And the thing about it is in their own records, they tell you that this wasn't new. But in fact, Joseph Smith Jr. Had this as a principle. Principle.
Matt:Because you see, the people that write these things are if nothing, well, they're lawyers. They choose words carefully. It's a principle that he was taught as early as 1831. So now, then we get to '84 sorry, 1844. This is is any Mormon historian's favorite year because, like, so much is going on.
Matt:Right? 04/07/1844, there's a thing called the King Follett Discourse or sermon that took place at General Conference. The General Conference then. And it's important because Joseph said, God's a dude. He's a man and he was a man, like Jesus resurrected, essentially.
Matt:And he has a physical body. See, this is really important because if you ask any Mormon and if they're honest about the character and nature of God, they will tell you God has a physical form, right? Not blood, but a bone and flesh. And that it is charged with something like spirit essence, right? God has lungs, God has features, God has Eyes, ears, mouth and nose, and all the other organs that make a man a man.
Matt:Functioning body is very important, which now starts to make a little more sense about why he saw two physical persons connected to the Fanny Alger incident. What? The thing about this though is I said this is when this was received and this is when this was given, right? That was public, this was not the DNC one hundred thirty two. He got it.
Matt:He got this revelation. According to him, this thought in his head from the deity that is a physical man. But it was really to get Emma in line and to shut her up. There were threats and warnings, but it wasn't published to the people. In fact, outwardly, the mayor, the lieutenant general of the militia and the prophet is telling people absolutely not.
Matt:One man, one woman. But there was this group of people who learned that's not true because not only was Joseph Smith doing this and had these plural marriages, he engaged in spiritual wifey, but so did a bunch of his, the other leaders, the other men, like Brigham Young and others. And so, these people were also not great people. The Naboo Expositor guys were also dabbling in sexual issues. They just weren't being authorized and that's kind of what pissed them off.
Matt:Some of them, at least there's some anyway. The Navoo Expositor, which is a new publication, a competing newspaper, exposes the truth about Joseph Smith Junior's belief in and practice of spiritual wifey. Plural marriage, polygamy. And they published this and let people know. They say they still believe in the Book of Mormon and in the religion, but Joseph is fallen prophet because of this.
Matt:Very Malcolm X like. And so, see that's 06/07/1844. June tenth, '18 '40 '4, Joseph Smith as mayor and lieutenant general of the Nauvoo Legion, the militia, order the expositor printer's press destroyed as a public nuisance. He takes his governmental power and he orders the destruction of a newspaper. As a result of this, Smith is served with a warrant for inciting a riot.
Matt:And in fact, the governor of Illinois, I think it's Governor Ford, writes and says this is a real problem. We have a real really concern that you as the mayor are destroying the press. That's wrong and so other government entities who have the power to check and balance the abusive power of mayors, well, they issue a warrant for inciting a riot. But in response to that on 06/18/1844, Joseph declares martial law as mayor and orders the Legion, the Naboo Legion, the militia, of which he's the Lieutenant Governor to take control of the city. What?
Matt:That type of a political overreach should be held in check, you say, Matt. I agree. And in fact, it was. But not before June 8, yeah, declares martial law, got that. On 06/25/1844, Joseph and Hyrum along with 15 co defendants are arrested and they were, sorry, they surrender actually.
Matt:And they're all given a $500 bail. But then a thing happens, yada yada yada, Joseph and Hiram are sent to Carthage, right, to kind of account for some other crimes, just some other things happen, you know, politics, politics. The other guys that were with them were, I think, part of the codefendants and they voluntarily went, but they didn't have to, right? On 06/27/1884, Joseph and Hiram are killed. Now Joseph also before this does, it's reported, sends a letter to the Nauvoo Legion and orders them to break him out.
Matt:Right? Because now it's competing laws and they have the law of God on their side. And so when they come, there's some question about whether Joseph Smith believes that it's actually the Legion that are coming, they're friendly. And then pretty quickly they find, he realizes, no, no, no, there's, now there's some dispute in that, but interesting tale. Now let me also be clear, F Lilburn Boggs and F the mob who would engage in vigilante justice.
Matt:Because some of them, I'm certain, were making sure to kill them so their own secrets would be kept and, you know, whatever. So Joseph and Hyrule were killed. Now, because of this, the city, the county, the state now realize, oh my gosh, this city has been operating by a man who was effectively trafficking in women and children. And when you're doing those things, there are financial funny business and concerns about the political overreach, just what was happening. So, the legislature votes to dissolve the Nauvoo charter and take away the power of all the municipal agencies.
Matt:And so, Nauvoo as a city doesn't really exist anymore. And between 1845 and 1847, Brigham Young and the people who followed Brigham, who I'll call the Brighamites, who became the Salt Lake City Church of the Church of Jesus Christ for Latter day Saints, they seceded from The US and we can call it the Exodus of the Plagues, or the Polygamy Exodus. Because it was the polygamists, the Brighamites, that seceded from The US so they could practice polygamy without the interference of The United States Governments. Because it had been clear that the governments, municipalities, county, states, they weren't going to let this happen and they were gonna take action. So the polygamist left.
Matt:They have a nice university though. And how do we know this? Well, we know this very clearly because you see, the anti plagues, the the the anti Brighamites, which included Emma and her children and Joseph's bros. They stayed and they got to keep their stuff. And they were allowed to have a community and a people.
Matt:And over the years, they have stayed there and have built up a community in independence in Missouri, and in Ohio, and in Illinois, and in Kansas City, and different places across the country in the world built on a principle of not polygamy. And so it was the Brighamites, the polygamists that left, and they built another community free from the burden that laws and moral principles of America can get in the way to the point where they didn't just build a city, they developed a state and they are indeed a deserette, an industrious people, a resilient people, survivors despite generations and generations of immorality and exploitation of women and children and others, and not playing nicely with those who don't join or belong. Well, in 1890, there is what's called the first manifesto And Wilford Woodruff says, yeah, we're not going to practice polygamy anymore. Like what? Why would they stop such a thing?
Matt:Well, in 01/04/1896, Utah's a state. And it was polygamy that was preventing them from becoming a state. How do we know that? Well, in 1903, there's the Reed Smoot hearings. Reed Smoot was elected as a senator from Utah and the government said, yeah, we don't want them to sue because of the polygamy problem because they're still practicing polygamy because they were.
Matt:We know that because the historical record tells us so and interestingly enough, see the Brighamites were always trying to convert Emmis children and the people that stayed to polygamy saying it was Joseph's things, not just Brigham. So they provided the evidence. In 1904, there's the second manifesto and they say they really, really mean it for realsies for real. We're really done with polygamy for real. Right?
Matt:And that has been the history of this organization. And it's why there's been a third group that's come up because you see in 1904 after this happened, there was this group of, brigamites, hardcore brigamites, and they're like no. And they went to the border of Arizona and Utah. See, because that was the colonies that these polygamists were building down to Mexico and Arizona and Southern Utah. And so they took up some spot and did exactly what Joseph Smith Jr.
Matt:And Brigham Young did. They said, God says that polygamy is the way we believe. We're the true believers of DNC one hundred thirty two. We're going to start a city where, guess what, their prophet was the leader and controlled the politics and the laws and by saying, God says so. So fast forward, well, today, but that's in part two where I continue my argument, my position that the Mormon church today in 2025 is not just not a pro social organization, they're an immoral organization based on their legal operations.
Matt:We are indeed in the bad place. And I'm your morality professor, Matt. More soon.