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Bassist Craig Scott of the Sydney Conservatorium on the ultimate team: the jazz ensemble.
“There’s probably no better example of democracy than a jazz ensemble – individual freedom, but with responsibility to the group,” –Michelle Obama
Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan:
[00:00:05] Hello, and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:15] Dan: And how the devil are you, Pia Lee?
[00:00:18] Pia: I am extremely well and I'm oh God, I'm so excited because this is an amazing intersection of your two chief passions, family aside, but let's talk about jazz and let's talk about teamwork. These
[00:00:35] Dan: I know, I can't believe it. I got, I have to say here. I discovered only in the last month or so that one of my daughters keeps some notes on her phone about when I compare things to jail. She literally has a log of when things I've compared to jazz. And so apparently I'm very dull. They both think it's hilarious.
[00:00:58] And only discovered recently they'd been sniggering behind my back when I'm holding forth, but I was just like jazz. So this is my perfect revenge podcast for them to send, take them. Look, there's actually other people talking about this as well. So this is a great moment.
[00:01:11] Pia: And are they collecting this data too, as part of that they're learning from their father and, and receiving wisdom, or is it to take the piss out of you at a later stage potentially?
[00:01:21] Dan: I think I doubt it's the pearls of wisdom falling from my lips that the, I think it's more of a record of my ridiculousness. So yeah I'm sorry to say, but I stand by it Pia, here's the thing I stand by it jazz. And I tell you who's on my side. No, no one other than Michelle Obama, who said there's probably no better example of democracy than a jazz ensemble, individual freedom with responsibility to the group.
[00:01:49] And just so my daughters Michelle's on my side and I honestly think that it is a wonderful analogy for teamwork, particularly these days where, you know, we think of music very often as well, even pop music, we hear singles or classical music, very written. I think jazz is far more improvised and changing every time you do it, which is very much like I think teams are dealing with today because we tend not to have done the things we're doing before. So we have to improvise, we have to make things up. We have to bring each other with us. So, uh, There I, it is a really good analogy and I'm really excited to have Craig Scott to talk about this on the show today.
[00:02:28] Pia: And Craig is a, an old friend of ours. We worked together probably needed. 13 years ago at the Center for Leadership and Craig being a professor of jazz at the Sydney Conservatorium gave some wonderful lectures and really was inspiring.
[00:02:46] Let's treat ourselves to a little bit of of his fantastic talents just to open open things up.
[00:02:54] Hallo Craig. It is so good to have you on the show today.
[00:03:42] Craig: Thank you very much Pia, it's great to see you and great to see Dan as well.
[00:03:46] Pia: We met over 10 years ago. I think I was doing a masters at Sydney Uni, and you were at the Conservatorium of Music and you came and did this amazing lecture for us about jazz and leadership. And I was so, so stuck in my mind, gave me a completely new. Perspective about leadership and about how a team works together in that environment.
[00:04:14] So you were top of our list for season two to come and talk to us because this was absolutely crucial. So, I guess let's start. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:04:24] Craig: Okay. I'm a professional musician, a double bassist. I've been playing professionally speaking in about, for about 41 years now, 42 years in fact. That's a good percentage of my life, and I've also been involved for a long time in jazz education specifically. So I actually started at the Conservatorium where you came to the, for that session at that time, in 1985, as a member of the casual staff and I was full time from 1996 to the end of March last year. So March this year, so 2021. And Beck at the Twilight of my career. I hadn't, as I casual again, which is actually great. I haven't had to send an email at midnight since March 13th this year has been fantastic.
[00:05:09] Dan: And what a glorious evening that Twilight will be.
[00:05:11] Craig: It's been great, obviously know dodging lockdowns and COVID and stuff. It's been fabulous. So
[00:05:16] Dan: Yes. Yeah. Fantastic. Craig, Welcome. It's a real pleasure to have you, and I distinctly remember seeing you giving that talk and doing my first bit of writing about leadership and I had so much material from what you said. So it was really inspiring. And I still remember things that you said then. So thank you for joining us on the podcast.
[00:05:36] Craig: That's a great pleasure. Great pleasure.
[00:05:37] Dan: Craig, we have a thing that we do in season two of the We Not Me podcast, which is that we we give our guests a choice of ask of a conversation starter card. And we have three packs, green, orange, and red, as you can imagine, they get a little bit more tricky towards the red end of things. Which pack would you like me to choose a question from.
[00:05:54] Craig: Oh, gosh. It sounds like something you should take to every party for a start. It's a great idea. Look, I will jump in because obviously being an improvising musician I should be able to think on my feet. So I'll have a crack at the red pac, thank you.
[00:06:08] Dan: exemplary Craig Exemplary. I'm just going to generally randomly choose a card here. You'll have to take up. Okay. Oh, here we go. This is good. Something that chokes me up is. What chokes you up?
[00:06:20] Pia: And that's not referring to something that you're. Is get stuck in the throat.
[00:06:24] Dan: No, this could be a fishbone.
[00:06:26] Craig: is now. Yes, indeed. Yes, aside from the time I nearly swallowed a Jabber whole when I was going to the pictures with my grandmother, when I was about five and nearly choked to death, while she was there, wondering what to do that was, I was really choked up at that time.
[00:06:41] Something that checks me up. There's a lot of things, actually, it's an interesting question, anything. That is moving is, and that's an obvious thing to say, it doesn't have to be music necessarily, although there's a great deal of music that I find quite hard to listen to because of the palpable sense of what the occasion is involving.
[00:07:02] And a good example of that actually is, I'm a, I'm an unabashed fan of Bill Evans is a trios from the first great trio with the Pharaoh and Paul motion all the way through to his last trio with Mark Johnson and Jayla Barbara. And Bill was uh, an incredible, wonderful pianist and a musician of course, but he was also a pretty good gait his body had pretty good hammering over the years with various substance abuses and stuff. He was actually about to come to Australia when he snuffed it, but quite by happy chance, he, the last week of his life was at Keystone Corner in San Francisco playing with his last trio and the sound guy on the desk of those I understand this is a story. The sand guide has decided to record it for his own personal archives. And so he recorded the entire week and. And it's a sad, it's interesting because there are obviously like seven takes of everything over the course of the seven nights, but also obviously bill Evans knew that he was sick, because it's quite unlike anything else he recorded. He just about annihilates this piano, and just about hammers it through the stage and he's going for stuff. And there's a real angular sort of angst and anger and anxiety, all the A words, that was good. In, in the playing and, it's, I've tried to sit down and actually listened to the whole lot, but I actually can't. I have to tell. And it's because you can feel that in the context of what is involved in that music.
[00:08:30] And I actually, when it came out eventually as two boxed sets of CDs and was released subsequently to his death because he was actually terribly fattier that what Bush released.
[00:08:40] Actually, it to one of the students at the con and said, cause he was a huge fan of bill Evans and he actually rang me at three o'clock in the morning, in the sterics and said I can't believe what I'm hearing. And I thought to myself no, neither can I, I looked at my watch, but anyway
[00:08:53] Dan: Yes.
[00:08:54] Craig: But yeah, but it was, and that was that reaction was that. Somewhat similar, somewhat analogous to, to, to my reaction. I mean, it's, It's really hard to listen to it because I it's good, but also there's a, it's a real cry, it's a real cry and that, that kind of thing, it can be, that can be some of the great work of art.
[00:09:12] I still get goosebumps when I think about some of the music theater, I've seen all kinds of things like that, that kind of chokes me up. Love as well. Of course, billion love checks show up,
[00:09:20] Dan: Yes. Great. Craig exemplary, improvising on your heart part, I must say. And that was genuinely off the cuff, so it very impressive. And just so thank you for sharing that. And it's a really great cue into it's take taking us into your world. If you wouldn't mind, you have to talk to us.
[00:09:37] I'm really into jazz as we said in the introduction. But and, but a lot of people just it's sometimes hard to understand from the outside. Could you take us into that world what's happening in a jazz ensemble, if you could describe that for us first to help our listener, to see what it's like.
[00:09:52] Craig: Sure. Sure. Okay. Jazz ensembles obviously can have different instrumentation and things of Eddie oxide. Fundamentally. Let's talk about like the most common one, which would be probably a trio of bass and piano and drums, and usually a frontline instrument of some sorts, our horn, like a tenor saxophone or a trumpet, or both. Sometimes a singer, and sometimes three horns, sometimes that, of course it can be a large ensemble, a big bands are less common now, of course, but the thing I think.
[00:10:24] One of the things that's interesting for me is the smaller the band, the more interactive and the less rehearsed it needs to be. Rehearsals, I can't have a bit of an anachronism actually in jazz, in a set in a sense, because you need to know what you're doing up to a point, but you also really don't want to know what you're doing up to a point as well. So there's a fine lines that sort of determine where the sweet spot is for that.
[00:10:47] There's questions that I get asked all the time in the context of jazz and they're always interesting questions from the, so when people who, especially people who are not familiar with jazz, come up to you at the end of a gig and say, how did you guys know when the piano was going to stop playing and the bass was going to start playing and And so then you have to explain to them it's because even though we're playing music that is improvised, there are, there is a structure, and there's usually determined by the person who wrote that particular piece.
[00:11:18] Now, as it happens in, in the context of playing the, particularly the standards, what we call the standards. So the musical of Cole Porter, Irving, Berlin, Rodgers, and Hart, Rogers, and Hammerstein, all of those great names of the land Bernstein, you name it, there's usually a set sort of structure that they all have. So we know if it's a 32 bar song. So that means if you can't afford 32 times, you've gone through 32 bars if it's in four four, then that's the end of a chorus. And have jazz actually works is the first time you'd play that 32 bar structure, you're probably gonna play the middle. That the composer has written. So let's say Sam set and doll by duke Ellington or whatever it is, they're all 32 bars. And after that, then you start to play solos. And so people say, how do you know what to play? Or you just make it up on the spot and things like that. And in fact, yes, you do make it up on the spot, but that's like saying when I speak to you in an English language, I'm making it up on the spot. Now, of course I am. I'm determining the order that my words might come out in order to hopefully give you some kind of insight into the meaning of what I was saying. Um, So when you're playing a solo in jazz, you're using the structure of the chords that the composer has written. So when the composer writes the song, he writes the melody and he writes the harmony underneath it. And also of course the rhythm of how he wants the melody to be.
[00:12:44] When you're soloing in that context, what you're actually doing is you're using the harmonic information, the quarterly information, and coming up with your own melody, which means that it has to tick certain boxes. Now it doesn't matter what those boxes are, because we could be here all day talking about music theory, and then everyone will be busy jumping off the roof or something, cause I'd be so bored. So we might go down that pathway, but it's like saying, you can't take the vowel sounds out of the English language Unless you want it to sound like wills or something. And you have to use the vowel sounds of the music in a certain way. And by that, the vowel sounds in music are the chord notes, the notes of the actual chords.
[00:13:22] So really it's like saying here's a blueprint. One of these nights tested track through the thing and you can join it up. However you. So that's the way it works. And then having said that there's lots and lots of ways that, good experienced musicians who play jazz will play around with that structure. So it's like saying you can get from point a to point B going down that road or you can go there and this road, you can go down that way. You can go this way. You can do whatever you like, but you'll still get point B. And those games are the most enjoyable games for the people who are into it.
[00:13:58] Now, not everybody is not, everyone can do it for example, because I haven't had that experience or that's not their mindset they're in, they're more interested in other things, but for me that's the that's the thing, Yeah. And so basically all you do is you just play 32 bars and then the number 32 bars and these advisors, are you applying the same structures, but yeah, a good musicians will say, we'll say don't play the same chords twice. I used to get hammered when I was a young bass player by the guys who were really the great players in Sydney.
[00:14:28] Do you have to play that again? The same way I wanted to play some different chords? You have to say I. I don't know what they are and the good players in those days at particularly familiar guy called Julian Lee, who was an incredible musician from actually from New Zealand. He was blind from birth and incredible musician. And he would spend hours telling me why he did stuff. And it was like the university of life, it was incredible. And so yeah, the more you bring to the table in that way, or in any respect uh, the more you can play games the more, and those games lead to the situation where you can start to think about the leadership roles within the music and what is in what's implied by somebody doing something at a particular time and how the leadership changes.
[00:15:17] Pia: I'm much less initiated than Dan is much more, has much greater expertise in this, but it makes sense to me that there is this, these set of rules, like an architecture and that sort of freedom within boundaries gives you the opportunity to be creative.
[00:15:32] Craig: Absolutely. a lot of people will say, are you guys just make it all up? Don't you? And the answer is only, we only make up the top layer, not the fundamental
[00:15:41] Pia: Yep. Which is almost like the front of the
[00:15:43] Craig: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:15:44] Pia: And what goes on behind is all, has already been predetermined and and understood. Probably everyone that's listening can see some similarities. It doesn't matter what context your leadership is within. Whether you're listening to this and you're in business or you're running a charity or you're running a sports team, I think that probably relates.
[00:16:04] But what I've noticed is that there's. Unusual to see overt calling out of these sort of, passing the Baton on the stage. So it's quite intuitive and it's subtle. So how's that done? And when does it work? Really well?
[00:16:19] Craig: It might be worthwhile talking about what or how leadership works in this particular environment, because it is a subtle thing or is, or supposed to be it's actually interesting because just before I get onto that, I'm talking about getting their physical cues and yelling things out.
[00:16:38] I mentioned before that my sort of main mentor was a guy called Julian Lee, who was a blind pianist. So obviously you could do, you can stand on your head and get in visual cues, but that wasn't going to do anything at all, and that, of course he didn't need them. Yeah. You should be able to musically set up anything, unless it's something that's really odd in a large ensemble, you would have a conductor who would take care of that by directing the music. But, so in a small one, that's always good when you've got the bass in your hands and you've got to go. And give him a damn blade with your head, you which is where the old joke I'll nod my head and you hit us. It comes from which is one of my favorites. always cracks me up anyway.
[00:17:14] So within a small, particularly a small group thing, the whole leadership thing is driven by the function that you're occupying at the time. So, I mean, there are obvious levels of it. So if you're applying, you know, you've just started a song and someone's playing the melody of the song that the composer wrote, but they're putting their own spin on it, which is the usual procedure in a jazz thing, they are in to all intents and purposes they're in the latest. And that's something that's obvious because they're determining. Yeah, they're probably candid the Jeannine at the tempo they want they've said, what kill you? They want to do it in they've they're articulating the melody and the rest of the band should know and should face up to not knowing it if they don't, and usually use these things, not the headphones, the ears, I'm looking to figure out what's going on.
[00:18:09] But within that context, It's interesting. And I think this is the big fascination of playing music that is improvised ostensibly, even though, as I said, there are rules. The leadership can whizzer around the band, like in, in microseconds, because let's say we applied the first, the first four beats of the song and the pianist plays a different chord that you don't expect to hear in the beginning of the second bar. So he's taken the leadership function for that note.
[00:18:38] Pia: Does it ever become a tussle on the stage where they're thinking, you've just taken, you weren't meant to. And so you're ending up it feels, it must feel a bit like you're listening to spaghetti bolonaise going on the stage really.
[00:18:49] Craig: Well, I think it's, it can, of course any kind of conversation or meeting can generate into a shouting Fest. I've certainly had my fair share of those in my life. Because of the fact that fundamentally people who are playing music yeah. Ostensibly should be listening to each other, if, even if the penis does take that moment and be the leader in that context as a basis, if I'm playing with somebody and I play as an unforeseen chord change, you've only, you've got that long to work out what it is. That's not hard, unless you haven't had the experience or your dad have good hearing LA good oral sort of skills, in which case you work on them.
[00:19:29] And so, you know, always, it's bit like a school of fish, Oregon, so someone takes a leadership function and it doesn't have to be the penis. It could be me, it could be a rhythmic thing that the drum is. If there's a drummer, or with a horn player, play something, but you didn't expect if all does the melody, so there's all kinds of ways. So what's happening is as you progress, even through the first kind of course, there is this leadership thing that's whizzing around. Someone says, suggests that. It's kind of almost I don't know, Chinese whispers or whatever you would call it. Now, if you're not allowed to say that where someone goes, but up in the next minute, it's blah, blah, the next minute it's blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. But it's the same thing. And so that's exciting.
[00:20:07] When it doesn't work. Of course, is if people are not listening to, or indeed they're so set in their ways that they just can't listen. And there have been a couple of bands that I've been in my life with really super good players, but they were all so stubborn that they would not give way, this is the core change I'm going to play and I will play it until hell freezes over. So if you don't know and so familiar that's a problem, that takes away the spirit of what you're trying to do.
[00:20:38] One of the things that came up when you and actually every single time that I ran one of those workshops, which was quite a lot actually was the fact that It was people would say when does, we talked, like we would talk a lot about the notion of leadership and all of the skills involved, listening speaking a common lingua franca, all of those things. Cause it's speaking a common language I was doing a gig. I don't believe this gentleman was from your particular cohort, but it wasn't far from that time it was within a year or so. I was doing a gig one night and it was shit is, really? It was awful. It was just like, it was like five people who had never met each other.
[00:21:16] Pia: So is it technical just in case, you're not sure about that listener. That means it wasn't very good.
[00:21:21] Craig: Now that's rotten. That's an old wine to him. Kevin And in, and at the end of the first sip, which was mercifully short because we all wanted to punch each other. And I went over to the bar cause I don't normally drink when I play, because obviously if you are in a situation where you're supposed to be listening and supposed to be professional and doing all this thing, yeah, you keep your sensibilities intact. At least that's what you do now. And the 20th, 21st century. And this guy came over to the bar and he said, oh, do you remember me? And I said I looked at him. I thought, geez. I said to him, look your faces familiar, but I don't know from where. And he said, oh I've just a couple of last year I did that workshop that you did it for Khan on leadership and improvise, and I looked at him and I thought, oh, And he I said, remember your face? You're the guy from Telstra. Is that writing was, yeah, that's right. That's me. And he sort of said, yeah, that's, what's really interesting seeing this geek tonight and my thought, and I said, no, that's good. I'm glad you're enjoying it. And he said, no, I didn't say that. I said, it's really interesting. How did he say no, I'm worried about, it's really interesting. And I said, so
[00:22:16] Dan: He's the interest use the I word.
[00:22:18] Craig: Yeah, the I word. He said to me well, you know, all that stuff, you were talking about leadership and listening to each other and yeah, how the music works. And I said, yeah, you guys it's not really working tonight. Is it.
[00:22:29] Dan: Brutal.
[00:22:31] Craig: And I said, we're no. And he said how come it's not? so I said because there are five Titanic egos on the stage, nobody's listening to each other and nobody gives a shit about what the music sounds like. And I just said, that's why. And so then I went over and had a bit of a chat to the rest of the band and I'm always in, I wasn't the leader, but we're all miserable because, and we all played together really well as a real, this was the thing. And I said, look, I've just had a very interesting experience and I told them a bad experience and what this guy had said. And. what was going on. And it turned out that like everybody had some kind of thing happened that day, that, that bagged them, including me, so yeah none of us had bought air a game, so we all sat down and had a glass of wine or something and went back on and the rest of the night it was good.
[00:23:11] But it was a fascinating thing that guy tells me that came up and made that observation because I actually saved the gig. I wasn't, I was thinking, I wonder if I can, what does anyone in the audience who could sit in and play the bass in the second seat? And none of my students are here bugger. you know, So I was trying to get out and then finished up being good.
[00:23:27] Pia: That's such a good lesson though, Craig, because we tend to blame one another or find other people that find another reason why it's not working. Whereas in actual fact what you weren't listening to was each other with, there was probably something that just needed to be unearthed.
[00:23:42] And I also remember, from the work that we did was, what's that unifying purpose of being together in an ensemble. What are you actually there to do which, which manages the Titanic egos.
[00:23:56] Craig: The, I think the three things for me that really are important. And I think this is for everybody who plays music, it doesn't matter what the genre is. The first thing is you have there to respect the tradition of the. the. trip. Yeah. Your respect for the people who've come before you where we are fundamentally trying emulate yeah, black American practice and add to it by adding an Australian flare, if you're in Australia or if you're in Europe, a European tradition of some sort, but fundamentally the notion of what we play is a combination of Western harmony and black American rhythm. And so that respect is the first thing.
[00:24:34] So you want that to be the case then, You want that to be as good as it can possibly be by virtue of listening to each other bringing your eye games at the title, being inventive, trying to reinvent the wheel without losing what the wheel is, and and lastly you are there to entertain people. In, I mean, there are situations where you can be highly adventurous and highly compelling and hope that people will like it. But as a general principle, you're there to entertain people.
[00:25:03] And it was interesting. I went to a workshop in Boston in 2000. I was doing some teaching over there actually. And it was run by an incredible vibes player named Gary Burton. He used to play with chicory courier and all kinds of people, famous, famous musician. And one of the first things he said in his workshop actually was that he looks at the people in the audience after the first couple of minutes of the song. And if they look like they're bored, they do something else.
[00:25:26] Pia: Right. So they really are taking the vibe from the audience.
[00:25:29] Craig: Yes. And this is at the very highest level of performance, it's really important. So those things are really what it's all about. And also taking, you bring your own experiences from life. You bring your emotions, you bring everything to the table when you play. If you're an honest. And yeah, most of the people with whom I've got the great delight of playing artists that, they, you know you, if you feel bad or you're unhappy, then that should be reflected in how you play, not to the detriment of how you play. If you've had at that Titanic galvanic event happened in your life, that should come out and what you do. And they certainly did in the case of a bill Evans and those three things I was talking about before. Yeah. He was on the way out and he knew.
[00:26:10] Pia: And I think what's interesting about that is, and I think that relates to so many again, of the people who are listening from various teams, a high performing team is greater than the sum of its parts. That's when the magic happens. And that's what I think you're talking about because that's you could just be individual artists playing together, but actually you're becoming a team. as you play, and that's, that's what's so unique.
[00:26:36] Craig: That's right. And if there, if that team work is not. Then obviously it's almost impossible to function at that top level. That's really essential. And one of the things that used to come up when I was doing those workshops, that the top of the wonders that you came to Pia, I always would use two students of the, from the cohort or the Conservatorium when I did those. So I was yeah, much more experienced than them because I'm much older than them, not necessarily better, just older and more experienced because they were in some incredible musicians in the continent. Amazing. But I particularly wanted to do that because it brings into into focus their training and the skillset. So being chair of the jazz department for all the years that I was was obviously helpful because I knew what they had been through in terms of doing the coursework involved in doing the jazz program, so I knew what they'd learned. I remembered their audition. So I knew what they bought in with them up to a point worth watching and find out in 20 minutes of an audition, and heard them in the practice rooms.
[00:27:41] And so I was very confident that even when I put them on the spot and I did several times in the context of those, by making them play Stafford, I knew that they didn't know, and then figuring out how to do it. It was possible to do that because of the level of their training and because obviously of their expertise on top of it and their great musicianship and everything else, but it brings into focus I think the necessity of the fact that an organization in order to have that ability to function at that top level needs to actually have people who have that expertise and if they don't have it, when they start in something, they need to acquire it somehow. So, you know, these young men and women you know, would had great musical instincts and learnt really valuable information, and the combination of that is what enabled them to function at that level.
[00:28:33] Dan: It sounds Craig, like the training they had, the learning they'd undergone was more general than just the learning the dots or the courts that it was actually what it seems like what you're talking about is that ability was to flex, to be able to listen to other people, to change with the move, with the way the music was going, which I think is a really easy leap into any team, actually, that those fundamentals are not about the task as in hand, but actually the ability to stay tuned to other people and go with what's needed. Would that, is that a reasonable summary?
[00:29:09] Craig: Absolutely. And certainly in terms of music, if that's not in place, then you simply can't function and that's why that first set of that particular gig I was talking about earlier, it just was so dire. It was because none of that was in his place for various reasons. Not that it wasn't in place within the individuals, but as a collective. And this is important. That was not there at all for that first set.
[00:29:30] Dan: I think there's a fascinating story as well, because I think we all see this way. W we sometimes have a grating relationship with someone there or something isn't quite working that day. And we think it's to do with us, but actually what it sounds like what you established in that case was actually where they were.
[00:29:46] People were bringing their baggage from the day and it was nothing to do with you. You weren't sparking. And it wasn't the band that was sparking that those problems, but people are still had issues left over some hangover from something fun, something bad that day, which I think is a very common daily occurrence for us. Isn't it? We assume everything. But it could be anything it's worth being curious about.
[00:30:05] Craig: That's for sure. That's special. It's impossible to avoid the pit, the pitfall of being in a funk of some sort. Now everyone does in our it. And so you'd say, having the ability to to function, even if you're in a rotten mood is something that's taken me a very long time to acquire, yeah.
[00:30:23] So the moment, my shot I'm really torn my rotator cuff, which means that playing the bases like his agony, but I'm going to work tonight and I'm going to fill myself up with drugs and alcohol and get through the gate. It'll
[00:30:34] Dan: It's
[00:30:34] Craig: but, won't, I won't blunt my sensibilities to the point that I can't do it, this visual,
[00:30:39] Dan: Yeah. But just something a little bit of help. I'm going to Craig going to dodge the opportunity to talk about a jazz funk. But and just ask you, if you could take us out if you like with if you digest all this, you've both played. You've been a member of a lot of these teams called jazz ensembles it, and you've actually translated that into the world of teams more generally and leadership. What would you. What's your learning from all those years, what would you leave our listener with?
[00:31:04] Craig: First of all, if you want to have a good team, you have to make sure that you are all capable of being on the same page. So one of the questions, for example, that would come up, usually in those meetings was what would you do to, with somebody not today? What would you do with someone who was in a in your band, but they were not able to fulfill.
[00:31:27] The particular role that you had envisaged for them. And that's a really good question. That's a really good question. It's a hard question. What do you do? Do you sack them? Do you do you take them aside and talk to them? Do you retrain them? Do you reassign them? All of those are potentially the right answer according to the context, probably not the sacking so much, that's a bit draconian.
[00:31:50] And so that was a familiar, there was an interesting question. So I it comes down in my view, the most important thing is first of all, make sure that people have the skills that they need, and if, and that means, regular kind of training. Yeah. Like rehearsals. Yeah. In the music we rehearse, not because we necessarily have to, unless it's something that's brand new and has never been performed and there's, it's a really difficult then obviously it's worthwhile doing that, but if it's just, I would rather rehearse for a nondescript gig and make sure that it's going to be really hot, then turn up and play with a bunch of people I don't know, because even though it'll be good, it won't be as good as it could be. I want it to be, as I said before, as good as it can possibly be.
[00:32:35] So the number one takeout is your true. Make sure people have got the expertise. And that means, implicit in that is, people who. Who are employed or, you know, if I hire a trombone player to add to a group for the night, I want to, first of all, make sure he can play the trombone really well. Yeah. That's a given, but I want him to see what his, what tunes he knows. Does he know a lot of standards? Does he not know any standards? Yeah, these are all in my world the kind of thing that you need to determine. So in a broader sense, does the person have expertise at your organization needs? Are they able to think laterally? Are they able to work as part of a team? We've had people over the years who were great musicians, but they were incapable of being as part of a team.. I'm not gonna say who it is, but you know who you are now, but, so those kinds of things at the takeout, everybody irrespective of the field that you're in, What do you do to be innovative, you want it to be as good as it can possibly be flexible. All of those things. Encouraging that, working together know, and I reckon, I reckon even something like Apple that's probably even when Steve jobs ran it, that's probably what it was like. He had a team of people around him who he would have really trusted ideas say and would have said at times now that's a rotten idea. Probably wouldn't have said it quite as gently as that. And other times we would have said that's a fantastic idea. Let's run with that and let's do this with it as well. There's that leadership thing implicit in that kind of structure, And I think that's exciting.
[00:34:09] Leadership and being flexible about the leadership. Yeah. Not being precious. I'm the leader. Don't tell me what you think is a good idea. That's not going to work, obviously, so you gotta be flexible about the leadership and the layout to ebb and flow, according to the, the ideas, you know?
[00:34:23] Pia: For somebody like me, that is th there's a musical Luddite. I love, I absolutely love these conversations because what you refresh in me is the way to see and hear the music. In a new way and also all the parallels that that, that relate to any team, anywhere, the structures, the freedom within the boundaries, that the creativity that, that it allows to happen and the musical genius to escape out of the bottle.
[00:34:54] It's just it's really exciting. And I remember. Closing memory, Dan and I, and one of our last trips, some time ago was to Chicago and we did get to hear some jazz together. And so it, and it's, you've really educated me to be able to hear and listen to it and actually really look at it from the dynamics in a completely different way. So thank you so much for that, because I think that different perspective enables us to approach our own teams in a different way.
[00:35:27] Craig: It's been fantastic. They be here and I thank you very much for their end and for inviting me to come on. And I'm it's a subject, leadership and music and all those things. There are subjects very close to my heart and very, I think hopefully close to. Yeah, driving the development of the teams in all kinds of ways that people had made another frequently imagined, you know.
[00:35:47] It might be worth mentioning just before I go about that book that I referred to, because for people who are interested in this, I love this word, this concept, there is actually there's a great book that I've stumbled across, which actually I even managed to put in the thrall of the people who ran those things that I was used to do at the university, cause I had didn't know this book either. It's been written by, I'm pretty sure he's a Canadian author and musician. His name is Frank J Barrett and. It's called Yes to the Mess, very pithy title and it's whatever, let's say it's secondary Carter title is surprising. Leadership lessons from.
[00:36:26] And so basically he is a pretty handy sort of jazz pianist from what I could make out. And these basically talks a lot about his experiences as a musician, but also applies that in terms of leadership and organizations and things of that ilk. And it's a great read. So it's definitely worth checking out if people are fascinated by this topic and how could they not be?
[00:36:46] Dan: Indeed. Craig, thank you so much. That's a great recommendation and thank you for for being on We Not Me today. It's been, I'm sure our listeners will take a huge amount from it, from this fascinating and wonderful world of jazz. Thank you Craig for joining us.
[00:37:01] Craig: A pleasure.
[00:37:02] Dan: You know Pia, his stories there Craig's viewpoint really took me back to a few months ago in the summer when our little band played my daughter's 21st in our garden and we, my, our bass player actually brought you asked if he could bring his sons into play one, played saxophone, the other played guitar. And and of course we're delighted by that. But you know, these were two new characters and they were great new entries, but they changed the band. You know, they did things that we'd never played before. And I remember them coming up with new musical ideas that took us into different places, and it just really lit the band just was amazing. So it just reminded me of that. It really made me think of that because Craig was talking about how musical ideas emerge and you go with them, you listen and you go with them. And it was exactly what happened. Definitely for the better. They shook us up a little bit in a really positive way.
[00:38:00] Pia: I think that was a really key point. Isn't it? It is. You wouldn't have expected a jazz ensemble to so clearly illustrates what teamwork is. You know, you could have a group of highly talented individuals, but something's not quite right in what they're delivering. So the higher intent isn't necessarily there. Whereas when you've got real teamwork and he talked about, that being respectful of the tradition of music by listening and being as good as you possibly can be by listening. That's a key leadership trait and a teamwork trait, because otherwise you could make an assumption that because you're older, more experienced your talent, doesn't allow their new talent to come in and therefore there isn't space to co-create something.
[00:38:49] Dan: Absolutely.
[00:38:50] Pia: What we use in business, what I hear is we're too busy
[00:38:54] and we need to deliver X. So there isn't the listening and there isn't the openness to that. And that could be a quieter member of your team. That could be a new person coming in a different perspective. So that innovation just, sometimes it doesn't get any oxygen to breathe at all cause we're not open to it.
[00:39:10] Dan: It's a really great point. And actually, if I think about the music lessons that I take, I've been amazed how little of that is about playing and how much is about listening. But when you enter the business world or a team, it's very much about your output rather than your input, you feel like. So I think, yeah, putting, listening at the heart of this is something that anyone in a team can can take away. I was really surprised how much of it is that the ear. And yeah, take that into any team I think.
[00:39:36] Pia: And I th He raised a brave point by talking about Titanic egos.
[00:39:41] Dan: Yes. I love that phrase.
[00:39:43] Pia: I think if we're raised, particularly in a corporate system through hierarchies to grow our egos that are in alignment with our roles and actually teamwork, and, And probably really, as we're looking out now of 2022 and all the challenges that face it, we're kind of, we've got to find a way to be able to I think embrace our team in a different way and step down from those egos. Cause I think the opportunities could be so much greater than we've been experiencing.
[00:40:16] Dan: I, I agree. And I, And it's very heavy on the jazz front, but I think this is a really interesting, useful story that I tell I was watching Herbie Hancock, the famous piano player talking on one of those masterclasses. And he told this story, he was playing with Miles Davis, who was a very young Herbie Hancock play with Miles Davis. Miles renounced massive ego, Herbie Hancock played the wrong note, played the wrong chord, actually in one during one of Miles Davis's solos, and he had this moment of I've ruined the entire tour. He just thought he ruined everything. But what Miles Davis did was he played something to make Herbie Hancock's chord sound right. And I thought that's, he changed his playing to make someone else's mistake look right.
[00:41:00] I mean, How amazing is that right at the heart of that teamwork, that the purpose of the thing is to you know, entertain the audience, sound good. And not rather than, oh, why did you make that mistake, no, I'm just going to make you sound. And I thought that was really powerful, quite moving actually to think. And I know that the Herbie Hancock was really moved by this master acting in a way that was so supportive.
[00:41:23] Pia: And I think in a team. We have those micro moments where we could make somebody else look good for the better of the team, or we throw one of our teammates under the bus
[00:41:35] Dan: Yeah, And we sorta get a little leg up. We stand on their pursuit prone body just to get a little bit higher ourselves rather than helping them up.
[00:41:45] Pia: And we all make mistakes and we're all in unfamiliar territory. And this year we'll prove that. So we've got a really conscious choice. We either make that support and give that leg up, or we make a judgment about others which may well come back to bite us and may not support the whole team.
[00:42:03] Dan: So true. It's just a brilliant thing to take into this, this new year. We're in January now, but uh, I think we got plenty of time to adjust ourselves, up our listening and And support, listen to others and support the others for the purpose of the team. So, yeah. Wonderful, Wonderful to hear from Craig and I think some inspiring thinking, but just a new angle taking it from this world of jazz to take key to any team.
[00:42:26] Well, that's it for this episode, you can find show notes and resources at Squadify dot net. Just click on the we, not me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of origin.fm. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:42:46] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.