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The HigherEdJobs Podcast is dedicated to helping higher education professionals find fulfillment in their careers and be the change agents that higher education needs in today's world. Join hosts Andrew Hibel and Kelly Cherwin, along with guest experts, as they examine job search strategies and break down the latest news and trends in higher education.
Andy 0:03
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast, Ask the Expert Edition. I'm Andy Hibel, the Chief Operating Officer, and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.
Kelly 0:11
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today we're happy to have Dr. Annmarie Caño join us again. Annmarie, thank you so much for being here today.
Annmarie 0:19
Thank you for having me.
Kelly 0:20
So as a reminder, Annmarie is a former professor and dean, licensed clinical psychologist, certified executive coach, and one of HigherEdJobs previous authors in residence. Her work focuses on helping individuals and institutions navigate growth, leadership, and workplace challenges. So we have another listener submitted question today that builds on navigating professional environments and relationships. So our question today is, what advice would you give professionals trying to navigate complex workplace dynamics in higher education, while also collaborating and growing professionally? For example, I've experienced communication breakdowns caused by silos between units, unclear decision-making structures, and differing perspectives on institutional culture and change. What mindsets or skills are most important for handling those kinds of workplace dynamics effectively Annmarie, what are your thoughts on this question or questions?
Annmarie 1:12
Oh yeah. So first of all, I think people are experiencing this all over, so you are not alone. So that's the first, my first answer. The situation is a classic reading the reality situation and reading reality is a practice in Latin American liberation process that I talk about in my book, leading toward liberation where you start to notice patterns and situations and you start wondering about them. And in Latin American liberation process, there's a kind of a cycle of going into these situations and understanding the conditions in which you work. And the three steps of that are VER, which in Spanish, that means to see or to be aware, which is where this person is at right now. Like what is going on around me? And it means that we're looking up from whatever work that we're doing because sometimes we get so focused on what's happening for ourselves that we don't see or understand that we are situated within a larger system. So that first part is just awareness. The second step is Husqar. And in English, Husqar is to judge might say to appraise to appraise a situation, say why is this happening. So that means we are showing some curiosity, not just complaining or saying, you know, this stinks or, but it's really asking, what is going on? So there are some ways of collecting information and collecting data, so you can understand what is going on, so you can move into the third step, which is act to art, which means to act. You can take action once you understand what is going on, but you also have to be aware of what's going So that's the cycle. So we have to jump into that awareness the judgment piece and not necessarily judgment for like the way we usually use that word is like, I'm going to judge the situation and it's never good or like I'm going to put some emotional attachments on to it. And this judgment is the appraisal, and that's where we get to be curious. So if you are noticing things like communication breakdowns or siloing. It's unclear how people are making decisions, who's making the decision. That's a time to get curious and to start asking, who made that decision?
Is it in response to something that happened? Or is there a concern about compliance and risk that is motivating the university to make a decision? Is there a sense of urgency? Like where is all of that coming from? And that means we talk to people and we compare notes with our colleagues and maybe ask people who are in different parts of the university who have a different perspective. So that that work means we're moving into perspective taking and also recognizing that humans are making decisions. And if I'm a human making a difficult decision, I hope that people are trying to take my perspective as well. And I think that's really a big challenge in higher education right now because we have faculty, staff and leaders operating from different bodies of knowledge and different experiences and not taking the time to understand where the other person is coming from. And it can be really difficult because if you feel like you've been wronged in a situation or you've been excluded from decision making, it is... It can hurt. It can make us feel angry, disappointed and closed off to being curious. So it really takes that intentionality to try to understand like, okay, I don't like that decision, but let me try to understand why that was the decision that was made. I might never agree with that decision, but at least I can understand how it was made. So in the future, perhaps I can be involved or I can provide I think that the other people need and may not be getting. So that that curiosity, checking in with others. Um, one of the actions that can be taken is providing feedback. So I remember making a decision of about hiring, hiring process as a dean. And I thought it was a good decision and a department chair said, well, I need to talk to you because I think, like, that's a terrible decision. You are hoarding power. And I was like, I'm not like, that's not the kind of dean I want to be. But let me listen, let me talk to this person and he gave me. Honest, straight, candid feedback and also how it was impacting his ability to be a chair and to, to build a department that he envisioned. That was so useful for me to get that feedback. He could have decided just to kind of stew and silence or to do all the back channel and just talk amongst the faculty and say what a horrible Dean I was, but he chose to give me the feedback. And I think those open feedback loops are really important. Sometimes leaders are not as open to feedback as I would like them to be. But if, if that dialogue can happen, it can build trust, build relationships and build better problem solving like I was an uncomfortable conversation, I remember. But after that, that chair was like the best chair to work with throughout the rest of my deanship. And I knew if I went to him and asked him questions, he would be honest with me and it would help me make better decisions. So that's where that feedback loop of like what's going on? Like why? Who's involved? What were the pressures that were leading to that decision? And then the feedback of acting whether it's providing the feedback to other people, meaning people crossing silos. All of that is important in that loop so that you're not just understanding what's happening, but you're actually having impact to make things better
Andy 7:29
I think that's such a wonderful example, real life example of how you take the Latin American liberation process and put it into action. So thank you for sharing that. I think what's interesting to me in this whole discussion. I love the three steps. I think most importantly, that first step of being aware, I think not just trying to get yourself to act, but just de-escalating any situation, calling it out and identifying it for what it is. Is an absolute necessity and takes away such an edge off of whatever it is you're dealing with, offering a quick example. I travel a lot, traveling by air is not known as one of the most pleasant experiences to do the behavior of others. I have absolutely no control of the behavior of others. Thankfully, in most instances.
I've read it somewhere and it's a game changer for me, but I hope it has an effect on the people that I interact with. But instead of paying attention or getting frustrated or being aware of that, I've actually started caring around Starbucks gift cards for a value of a single cup of coffee. Nothing big, but when I see amazing behavior on the part of staff. I go give them a gift card and thank them for making people stay better. And I can tell from my perspective, being aware of good behavior makes my day a heck of a lot better to be able to force out all of the other things that are happening around me. And normally at the airport, it's a three ring circus. So I can tell you that changing of the awareness is there. I always find acting acting is very, very difficult. So I think that one thing I would add is. I think within academia, we always look at academia and say, oh my God, oh my God, I can't believe this is a problem everywhere. You can find it everywhere. Airports a good place. Go to Disney World. You're seeing the silos not working with each other, etc, etc. That is really, really true everywhere. And we have It's a centralized decentralized model. A lot of centralized service offices and a president. out there doing their job and these deans who have a lot of decentralized power within their colleges. And when you have that sort of model, I think it's quick to blame
Annmarie 10:15
Uh
Andy 10:16
It is a horrible model for all the other models that are out there. It's one of the things in my opinion that actually makes academia great because it provides checks and balances to all parties. If you're not able to build that relationship with the chair, like you do, you are not going to be successful in your job. President is going to be the same way. The provost is going to be the same way. The people who cannot do those things are not able to survive. Or if they do survive, everybody will say how, why, what, what, like those are, those are not the typical cases. So I always like to point that out these skills are so very important. I'd also say what you just talked about is the durable skill of trust.
Annmarie 11:05
Mmm Hmm
Andy 11:05
Building within those relationships is extremely important. I'd like to remind people compassion and grace go very, very well with trust. Showing that person that you're willing to hear them in there and showing grace and understanding where they're coming from is absolutely a huge tool in your toolbox to do it. On the action side, I desperately want people to understand that all you need something, something forward is the next step or the half step. You don't need to need to solve the entire problem, immediately. Go ahead and find out what everybody needs. Understand where decisions came from and what the needs of the various constituencies might be and try to meet them where they are. That's where trust and compassion and listening and questions in that, that curiosity really come in. That's all you have do. You don't need solve all the whole problem, all at the beginning. Just get us to a place that's slightly better. Remember, real change takes time. Real change is incremental. If this is the way it is, it's not going to change overnight for good reason. And even if it does, it's going to be hard for the change to stick. So
Annmarie 12:30
Mmm hmm
Andy 12:31
going to use and quote your model from this point forward with full attribution and really appreciate you sharing
Annmarie 12:40
Well, thank you. And that's not my model. So the the Ved Husqar Actuar is that is coming from Latin American praxis. So I just want to I also want to make sure that I'm attributing. I'm just
Andy 12:51
it.
Annmarie 12:51
sharing
Andy 12:52
Yeah. So noted and you will get attribution for being the person it to my attention. How is that?
Annmarie 13:00
Okay. All right.
Andy 13:01
That's okay.
Kelly 13:04
Well, I too, I just want to quickly echo. I and these sentiments and I absolutely love the three steps as well. And I think you did a great job of answering the question of the mindset and skills that are important for handling. And I I was saying now it's and I wrote down, get curious. I must say, I love I love that advice because you mentioned earlier that sometimes people will, you know, like they'll complain and do nothing. So that's not very productive. Like that kind of we're in the workplace. And if we're just like kind of wondering and you know, complaining to colleagues like that's not that's not moving us forward. So getting curious is such such great advice and and then, you know, processing. I think that helps people because we're in that unknown state of like what's happening. You know, sometimes things spiral out. And people create a story that's actually not even happening. Like is silos because, you know, that person doesn't like me or just the staff and faculty like, can we not like get along and you know, like just things aren't aren't necessarily that that's not reality. So I love the idea of getting curious and then taking those those answers you get from those curious questions and like you said, acting. And I say, Kudos to you. I just want to say when you're giving an example about, you know, interacting with the, you know, said a little bit of a awkward situation. You having the ability to be open. Like you said, it's an open feedback loop. Not not all leaders like you said are open to receiving that type of feedback from, you know, chairs or other people on, on campus. So that's, that's great, great leadership on your part.
Annmarie 14:33
Oh, thank you. And and this feedback loop keeps going. So when you start getting curious or asking these questions or providing the feedback, your next step of going back into bed or to being aware is how are they receiving my feedback or how are they receiving my questions? Because sometimes sometimes people are like, oh, yes, please ask questions. Sometimes there's a closed offness to, like, why are you asking so many questions? Like, this is not your business or that, you know, and that helps you also, like, that's a different situation of like, okay, so now I know what's happening and I know there's a sensitivity or a defensiveness that's going on with my asking questions, what does that mean and now how can I act knowing that so it just keeps. It keeps going. But all of it is about curiosity, gathering the information and then choosing how you want to act using strategy and and also thinking of the collective
Andy 15:33
in order to build trust. You have to offer trust.
Annmarie 15:37
Yes.
Andy 15:37
And if you're not willing to offer that trust, it's going to be really hard for folks to want to trust you. So
Annmarie 15:46
absolutely.
Andy 15:47
Yeah, your willingness to trust in that situation is such a key ingredient to being able to make it a productive and beneficial relationship for not only the folks involved. The shared and constituencies, the students
Annmarie 16:07
folks
Andy 16:07
that you serve.
Annmarie 16:08
Yes.
Kelly 16:09
Well, thank you to the listener that submitted this fantastic question and Annmarie. Thank you so much for your wonderful thoughts. This was a great conversation.
Annmarie 16:17
Thank you. I enjoyed it.
Andy 16:19
And thank you for listening. If you have questions like this one for Ann Marie, or any of our other experts, please feel free to reach out to us at podcast@HigherEdJobs. com or send us a direct message on x @HigherEdCareers. Thank you for listening. ...and we look forward to talking with you again real soon.