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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take a
moment, a moment in this day, your day,
to watch your body, soften your heart,
and expand your mind to the reframe.
Breathing in and breathing out, inviting
you to look at words, experiences,
invitations, with a reframe.
A simple way to look at it
differently, an opportunity to hold it.
softly.
And as you breathe in and breathe out,
encouraging you to take one step
further into your devotion, this path
of yours, this healing journey you are
walking on this opportunity to reflect.
This is your space to reframe
as I breathe in.
And as I breathe out, I
encourage you to do the same.
Spending time in quiet.
Reflection,
and watching the narration, the story,
and your experience fold in on itself
and unfold on itself.
Breathing in
and breathing out.
What are you reframing?
What are you willing
to look at differently?
Taking one breath in,
and softening breath out.
Offering the opportunity today.
And weeks ahead to look at
everything a little differently,
taking one final breath in
grounding breath out.
And once again, opening your eyes to
see the room, and most importantly,
to see yourself a little differently.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics,
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression, to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today, I'm completely humbled
and devoted, excited, and really
enthusiastic to reconnect with Ben.
Ben, it's good to see you.
Good to hear you.
How are you coming in?
Great.
How are you?
I'm well.
We're talking all things psychedelic,
and I know you and I have known each
other for some time, and we met.
in a really cosmic way.
What does the word psychedelic mean to you
and how did it find you or you find it?
The first word that
comes to mind is journey.
It means exploration and it
means turning off my brain.
And so that's probably how I,
I, I found it or found you.
It's something that I've been
exploring and reading and talking
to people about for a long time.
In some ways, almost as like a
intellectual academic pursuit.
And then, but through that, I talked to
lots of different people and I spoke to
one person who is a personal coach for me.
And after some time he shared some
of his psychedelic experiences one of
them was with you and the minute he
was talking about the details of the
experience, it just felt right to me.
Right.
So that's how I found you.
It felt right, which isn't something
that happens often with me.
It just felt right.
It clicked.
Yeah, and so one of the things you just
said so beautifully is you studied it,
you looked at it, you took it on as you
were comfortable with, that's how I'm
translating you, is you really cultivated
a knowing mind through something that
felt safe to you, be it intellectual,
studying, and yet then there was an
invitation that you just knew felt right?
Physically.
Physically.
Did that surprise you?
Completely surprised me.
Say more about that.
It surprised me in that, you know,
physical feelings in my body are, are
one of the reasons that I was, you know,
Looking for ways to be less reliant on
my thinking brain and more on my body.
So, I'm, I'm on this hunt for something
that's going to help me to do that.
And then the minute I'm connected
to you, or even before I'm connected
to you, the minute that somebody's
speaking about you before I know
you from Adam I just felt it in me.
So, you know, surprising is kind of silly
cause it shouldn't be surprising at all.
That's what I was looking for.
But it was like such a, you know,
when you say invitation, it felt
like almost like compelled or called,
or this is exactly right for me.
Yeah, and I really want to unpack
that from my vantage point is there,
there is a felt sense knowing and it's
almost impossible to ignore it, right?
So when I know I had met you and you
had dropped in, it's like within a
couple moments, there was this like,
okay, this is a, this is a full
body yes, is often what I call it.
And, and we have to honor all the
years of that met to us or converged
in order to get to that point.
How does one make sense of that?
I mean, that's like a paradox inside
of a paradox inside of a paradox.
So my, my intellectual brain
tries to make sense of it, but
I'm trying to do less of that.
And.
And just, I mean, it's, it's like, as if,
I was driving the car and then all the
dashboard lights like came on at once.
Like, so I can't get override that.
Like it's tell the car is
telling me something, right.
My body was telling me something.
It wasn't just the, the tire
pressure light that comes on
and there's always inaccurate.
It was the.
Check engine and everything.
And so I guess you said
how do I make sense of it?
There was a little less trying to
make sense of it and a more of like,
okay I'm just gonna follow this thing.
Right.
And let's not forget just quickly is
the importance of relationship, right?
So something that I'm honored by knowing
and having such an intimate relationship
with you now is this idea of that the
underbelly of how this relationship
formed between you and I was because
of the woven blanket of interpersonal
relationships that came before you and I.
That, to me, becomes profound, is
imagining the compounding of people
that have brought two other individuals
together sometimes like blows my mind.
Yeah.
And I couldn't have strived or worked for
that sooner or faster, accelerated it.
And it's, I needed to do the
reading and exploring, which led
me to somebody, which led me to the
personal coach, which led me to you.
You know, I think I told you right
after the experience that it was the
exact moment in time that I needed
it, not like a day or a week or a
month or a year sooner or later.
Like I, yeah, it was well outside
of my control and it was the exact
moment in time and it was Perfect.
That really makes me happy because
oftentimes I think we try to
control it so much that we're
like, okay, let's do the X axis.
Let's do the Y axis and
let's find the, utopic spot.
And that usually is when it
falls quickly and softly apart.
But if we can really hold the
container and trust in the process as
fictitious and cliche as that sounds.
Perfect.
It's true.
But paradoxically, of
course, I was trying, right?
I was on this exploration and,
but this was, this was like
trying in a different way.
Now, after the experience has
happened, I'm going to put the
cart a little bit before the horse
and be psychedelic in nature.
Would there have been anything
that surprised you or now, in
retrospect, you would have?
said to somebody if they're on the
eve of doing this for the first time,
that they should be considering,
such as releasing expectations or
softening the to dos of practice.
Are there anything now in retrospect
that you would say, Ben, to someone
that says, Hey, you're gonna do this.
This might be some valuable
information to walk with in
preparation to a large experience.
Yeah, the two things that come to
mind are one is, is something that you
told me, and I'll come back to that.
The other is just from my lived experience
of trying and striving and working
and, you know, reading and researching
all of that was necessary but then
I, and you prompted me to release.
So it did all this preparation work and
lots of intention, but then completely
released the intention before.
So it's like, you know, 10 years of work
and study and search and thinking and
doing and talking, but then let it all go.
So, you know, that I'm sure I'm pretty
sure that's common wisdom, but I
would underline that that, do that.
Even if that feels very foreign to you
is a piece of advice that would give
somebody and, and that did work for me.
And then the other is.
You shared the example of I, I told you
right before the experience that I find
myself sometimes even in meditation,
like some ideas will come to my mind
or thoughts will come to my mind and
I'll want to hold onto them like, Oh,
I don't want to forget that when I'm
done with the meditation, even to the
point where, you know, it's silly to
admit, but I used to like develop all
these like mnemonics, like there's
four things I wanted to remember.
I would make something up to remember it.
And you said.
You know, basically don't do that.
You said when a kid goes trick
or treating on Halloween.
They're not stopping and looking
at each piece of candy as they
put it in the pumpkin in the bag.
Like we can do that after you can dump
out all the candy after just enjoy the
experience and kind of go with the ride,
which was the exact piece of advice and I
guess guidance and wisdom I needed because
it allowed me in the experience to not
try to be integrating in the experience.
I guess I was like just there
for it which was super helpful.
So those are the two things that.
Yeah, and to your point, I love that
you framed it this way and narration and
language is so important is oftentimes
that's where we get stuck is we're trying
to integrate it, make sense of it over
analyze it as it's actively happening
rather than just flowing without force.
I know you and I have talked a lot.
In our integration conversations about
the reframing and the re narration.
What does that mean to you?
What, what's been unlocked in the way
that now you're holding your experience?
How does that, yeah, that's for you today?
Yeah.
A lot of it's in the words like
you just said, flow versus force.
Another kind of before or after
framing was work versus devotion.
I shared with you that, if you created
a word cloud of my, My whole life of
thoughts and actions and writing and
speaking the word work and determination
and hard work would probably be the
biggest thing in the word cloud.
It's a huge part of like how I.
Even with the control around that, it's a
big part of how I've identified my myself.
And the big reframing there is thinking of
it more as devotion instead of work, which
is something you offered to me after the
experience, which really clicked with me.
Devotion still, to me, has the
intentionality and striving to
some degree, but in a softer way.
Like you said, it's much more flowing.
of life than trying to
force things into it.
So that is like a, that's like a
new, a new pair of glasses I've put,
I'm trying to put on life, right?
Like I'm still me, the world,
still the world around me.
But if I can try with more of a
path towards devotion to myself and
this kind of path, both, personally
and spiritually and all that.
If it's a path of devotion instead
of a path of work, a lot of the same
things are going to come up, but I
can, I can handle them in a very, very
different way that feels much less
of a burden and softer and calmer and
more peaceful which is just, Amazing.
What is your body saying to you as
I'm listening to you speak about the
difference of devotion versus work?
Peace.
My heart swells and I
feel softer and calmer.
I love that.
Which, even being able to answer your
question right now is a huge victory.
Like, what does my body say
in our preparation work?
What does my body say?
There was a lot of like, how
do I answer that question?
What do you mean?
Right?
Like, and I, I feel like I'm
starting to be able to access
that a little bit more, which is
a huge milestone in and of itself.
It's a really beautiful expression.
Thank you.
And you're speaking to something that's
important for me to articulate is
this is a, this is Ascending journey.
This isn't a journey of one and done.
And I think you're acknowledging that
even in our conversation right now,
as you're developing all these tools,
what would you tell your future self?
What are you telling your future self
that you're harnessing right now, but we
should be growing towards what, what would
be the wisdom you tell your future self?
Good question.
I think would tell my future self to
continue to ride the wave, practice
everything that I'm preaching right now.
There's going to be new, new
ceilings I bump into and hardships
and plateaus and don't default to
the work, the determination, the
fix it, the kind of linear thing.
So
I would, yeah, I would tell my future self
to kind of you know, for lack of a better
term, like trust the process, right?
Like just keep, keep going with it.
Right.
Like I can't remember if something
you said or I read or something
that came to my mind, but like
life is such a beautiful symphony.
Like just, just hear it
and, and go along with it.
And I don't know what the next
movement in the symphony is, right?
Like I, it's, it's kind of written.
I'm not, I'm not necessarily writing it.
So yeah, I would tell myself
to just kind of ride the wave.
Well, and I love what you're saying,
because I know music was such an
instrumental part of your experiences.
We were talking about the pauses, too,
so to continue the metaphor of the
symphony, what you're acknowledging,
Ben, is this idea of it's not just
the music, or it's not just the notes,
but it's also the quiet in between.
And I know the middle is important
newness for you, but also the
quietude and the space between
has really Invited in something.
Can you speak about what that
quietude and the space between is?
Yeah, that was one of the literal things
that I, kind of experienced in my work
with you was like and the music Music
is such a huge important part of my life
and and I knew that music was going to
be a part of the experience But somehow
I was still absolutely shocked that it
was such an important piece of of the
experience and one of the actual things.
I kind of felt lots of things with music,
but one was kind of the, as you said,
the, the space between the beats, right?
Like in some ways, like there was
an infinite amount of time between,
two beats and any one of the pieces
of music that were being played.
And, I, again, that's, I
think the symphony trying to,
to teach me something, right.
It's not just like, well, going
back to the work versus devotion,
if I'm working, it's very hard to.
Working is future focused for me.
It's ahead.
It's planning.
It's striving.
It's, , it's what's next.
It's very hard to hear the beat now, let
alone the beat in between the beat, right?
And so, and I felt so many things with
my ears and the experience, like my ears
were the portal to everything I learned
and kind of felt like I downloaded.
And it was also the, like the entrance
into my body to clear things out.
So yeah, there was a lot
there associated with that.
That's a really beautiful articulation.
And it speaks volumes to this
idea of looking at something once
again, differently, like allowing
it to not just be in the literal
sense, but okay, this is my portal.
This is my almost integration exercise.
I imagine too, I suppose music has
transformed quite radically since.
your experience, the, the, the
nuance of music, has it changed any?
Yeah.
I mean, especially right after music
has always been one of the areas where
I feel like it hardwired over, or
sorry, like over took my hard wiring
of more literal and work and striving.
Like music was always the thing that,
where I could feel things in my body.
So that hasn't fundamentally changed
because I felt like I've always had that.
I feel like maybe the rest of.
My life experiences are catching up with
what I had previous experience with music.
Like when, when you ask, how do
I feel, I can answer that better.
Now I could always answer how
I feel when I was listening
to a piece of music before.
So, you know, maybe that was going back
to maybe advice I would have given my past
self is like, listen to the thing that was
already calling me, music was already,
Very much calling me in like a portal to
my emotions and my body And even though I
was telling myself like I don't have that
dimension I fucking love that listen to
what's already calling me and it's in a
way unpack it more And to the next theme
that we've talked about deeply is be more
intimate with it rather than just go into
the depths Can you speak about how you've
reframed intimacy versus depth and how
psychedelics is inviting you into that?
You Yeah, so that's another one
where the reframing with the
languages is really helpful to me.
So coming into the journey, one thing
that was part of my intention was depth.
One thing I was working on a lot was
depth, like depth of relationships,
depth of understanding, depth of myself.
And just like work versus devotion, depth.
After my experience is being reframed
as maybe a little too harsh and
to to working of a term, right?
Like not not that there's anything
wrong with depth, but I was a using
the word depth and I like, you know
Something's at the surface and I want it.
I want it to go deeper like
not organic very literal and
linear and how do we do it?
Whereas intimacy feels softer
and more peaceful and calmer.
And you know, going back to the music, I
always felt like I had intimacy with music
and maybe now I can have more intimacy
in my other relationships and with myself
and, and all that, that sort of stuff.
So yeah, the depth.
It's still what I want, but the word
intimacy feels like a much healthier
word for me than depth, which is,
you know, a little bit more rigid.
You said something that really
struck me and I would like to
unpack is intimacy with self.
What does it mean now to find,
and I see you soften even in your
gaze, what does it mean when I say
becoming more intimate with self?
How do you feel that, look at
that, and are you experiencing
that since your experience?
Yeah, I mean, I think I've.
Even the preparation is into
the experience was helpful.
And that was one of the things that
I was part of my intention was I felt
like there was parts of myself that
despite all my efforts and work there.
The word work is again.
I wasn't accessing or I.
The, pie chart of myself, there was
pieces of the pie that were gone.
Right.
So intimacy with myself which is
something that just came out now.
I, it's not something I've, I've, I
hadn't put those words together before,
but I think it just, First and foremost,
like, recognizing the full pie, right?
The full self.
And then I can start to, you know,
go into those pieces in more detail
as I do more of this integration
work and just more, more exploration.
So, I felt like maybe the blocker
for me was that, well, it's
hard to be intimate with myself.
Like, it's hard to enjoy
this beautiful work of art.
If big chunks of it aren't,
are not on the canvas, right?
Like there's just big
blank spaces, you know?
So now that I feel like I can see
the whole piece of art, maybe I can,
you know, appreciate the whole piece
of art deeper and yeah, more fully.
Well, in a way embody it too, right?
So to your point of now feeling your
body, emoting yourself as parts of
those are like, now you're touching that
you're, you're connecting to a different
aspect of self, which I really admire.
Thank you.
How would you recognize when it
would be time to hit the mat again?
I know it's so close and
so new in your sphere.
What are you acknowledging about
yourself to recognize if this is
something that I'd be called to do again?
How are you going to speak
to that thought or hold that?
It's another great question.
I get lucky.
Yeah, every once in a while, right?
I don't know.
I guess I would, I would have to, you
know, I feel like this calling I had that
we talked about, you know, 20 minutes ago
that I have a, like a template
for lack of a better word.
All right.
And so if I feel that same feeling I
mean, then I'll, I'll follow the calling.
You know, in some ways that already.
I already know of like a hundred
things that I potentially
want to explore further.
So in some ways it feels like,
okay, right now, but I also know I
haven't fully integrated and explored
this first experience, but it's
probably going to be for me if I
continued on this path of devotion.
Less work, more devotion.
But when I feel like I'm bumping up
against the wall again and that there's
something that I want to explore further,
so I don't have a better way to say it
other than I think I'll feel it when it,
Beautiful answer.
It won't be an intellectual construct,
rather it will be this new embodiment
of like, Oh, there it is again.
Thank you.
Walking gently.
What are you doing Ben to walk
gently today in your life?
And as you walked away from
the experience, how are you
providing gentleness to yourself?
Yeah, that's another big reframing.
And I know that's, you know,
a big part of Your, your word
cloud, be gentle is probably the
one of the biggest things in it.
So I went in saying,
like, what does that mean?
And now I feel like I
know what that means.
So a lot of it's what we just
talked about, living these reframing
paradigms, like devotion versus
work intimacy instead of depth.
And kind of that, that middle path,
that middle ground of like less.
I'm still myself.
The things that I want to accomplish
or have to deal with in life are just,
you know, things that are gonna happen
later this morning and this afternoon.
To me, being gentle is just like,
well, one, I don't need to rewire too
many of them what it's going to be.
I don't need to think ahead
of the practical thing.
And two is I can just kind of follow
the path or ride the wave when it
comes, which is like, I mean, so
different than what it was beforehand.
So it doesn't mean I'm going to not
be stressed or triggered or upset or
angry at times, all that sort of stuff.
But like, I just feel more peace
of being able to deal with the
situations, even when I, when I deal
with them, not, not greatly but I'll
be able to deal with them better.
I don't have to like worry
about it or say, these are the
five things I need to change.
Or like, it's just, Just kind of go
with it a little bit more and learn
the lessons along the way because there
will be some I'm humbled by you ben.
I'm so excited and grateful to have
you in my life And I thank you so
much for this beautiful expression
of yourself and trusting me.
Thank you.
Thank you so much