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Welcome to "Lessons from the Couch", where we invite you to pull up a seat and join Corina and Mariana—two marriage and family therapists based in Illinois—on a journey through therapy, life, and everything in between. In each episode, we have honest and engaging conversations with therapists and non-therapists alike, exploring their unique experiences in and around therapy. Whether it's the story of a therapist navigating early career challenges or a non-therapist sharing how therapy changed their life, our goal is to show just how accessible and transformative these conversations can be.
We also dive into the diverse career paths and personal journeys within the field of mental health, from seasoned professionals to those just starting out (like Corina and Mariana, who are at opposite timelines of their own therapy careers).
If you're curious about therapy, mental health, or simply enjoy meaningful conversations, "Lessons from the Couch" is for you. Get ready to think, reflect, and discover new perspectives one conversation at a time.
Follow Lessons from the Couch on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to listen to new episodes.
Co-Hosted by Corina Teofilo Mattson and Mariana Reyes Daza. Show art by Jae Avilez. Music by Brandon Acosta.
If you're interested in therapy services, either in person or via telehealth, and reside in Illinois, visit www.liveoakchicago.com to learn more.
Hey everybody, this is Corina and Mariana from "Lessons from the Couch". We're checking in. We've been thinking that maybe you've been wondering where we've been. I just will say that I'm a big geek for a meta lesson, meaning using this podcast as a way to bring in the reality of our experiences as therapists and to shine a light on them because whatever is happening for us is probably happening for others.
Mariana:Yeah. One big thing I want to share with our listeners, especially with our listeners that are earlier on in the field, is that as a new baby therapist myself, I've experienced a lot of changes in the last year, getting more clients and picking up a pace that is more full time, which also means adjusting to that new schedule and learning how to do the things that I love, including co hosting this podcast alongside my work. And so that does mean that Corina and I had a few conversations about taking a step back. And although in an ideal world, we would have wrapped that up in a better way, we listened to what we needed in the moment and decided to give ourselves a little bit more pacing to release these new episodes. So we hope you enjoy the two episodes coming up, and we look forward to being back soon with more ideas for you all, more episodes.
Corina:Thank you, Mariana, for being willing to share that, and I hope it connects with all the therapists out here who, for reasons of being new or reasons of living in the world or reasons of life coming at you are feeling that shift. I think it's so common to feel some kind of judgment about it, and I'm delighted that you're willing to share it because it's just so, so common. We are looking ahead to an eventual season three, and we haven't yet decided everything about where that's gonna take us. And we would love it if you'd be willing to offer us your hopes, wishes, desires for what you might learn with us about what it is to be a therapist or in therapy or in this work. Please send along your requests, your suggestions, your ideas, even critiques.
Corina:Truly, we love it.
Mariana:Yes. I'll be linking a form in our episode description so that you can send us all your thoughts. And thank you all for your patience and continued support.
Corina:Hi, my name is Corina Teofilo Mattson.
Mariana:I'm Mariana Reyes Daza, and we are the co hosts for Lessons from the Couch.
Corina:Throughout this podcast, you're going to find us having intimate, deep conversations. We'll be talking to therapists and probably some non therapists, and we're going to bring you into the therapy room with us.
Alex Hoffman:I'm Alex Hoffman. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I work at Live Oak in Chicago, Illinois. And I guess when you kind of posited the question about expertise, I definitely think about the fact that a big portion of the caseload that I hold right now and generally are folks that have treatment related trauma, and that is a big focus of mine, though harm reduction is a lens that I take when working with those folks and all of the folks that I work with, whether or not treatment related trauma is something that brings them to therapy or not.
Corina:Alex, would you mind telling us when you started to find yourself working with folks with treatment related trauma?
Alex Hoffman:So I've been in the field of mental health now, gosh, for like over twelve years. And I started in mental health with a bachelor's as a direct care worker in residential length stay for children who were in DCFS custody. And I was one of the staff that staffed this residence twenty four hours a day, so in shifts. And so this was kind of my introduction to treatment related trauma, was being a staff at this facility and seeing how the facility was run and how the kids were cared for, the trauma that was inflicted upon those kids there, as well as like the care that was also tried to provide to these kids and seeing how little they would listen to my input about what was not working about the care. Having had my own lived experience in the troubled teen industry, I definitely had strong opinions about what was not okay about how they were approaching things, as well as having a bachelor's in psychology.
Alex Hoffman:I was like, Oh yeah, know. So what? They wouldn't listen to me, obviously. And so that was part of what motivated me to go on eventually and get a master's. That was like my first introduction to treatment related trauma and seeing that as like a provider of the care.
Mariana:I love that lens that you bring in about being a troubled teen and that being something that you were kind of using as a resource to support your work. And I think quite often we see a lot of people in our field being guided into specific areas because of also their personal experiences. And I'm curious how this aspect that you're describing as being a troubled teen, you think guided you to the work. The troubled teen industry is one that is a very fraught industry and has gotten more in recent years with things like
Alex Hoffman:the Netflix documentary, The Program, and things like that. I don't know if folks have seen some of those, but there have been. And Paris Hilton actually is a big advocate for those of us that have been part of the troubled teen industry. She was in one of the programs, I forget which one she was in, but one of the many programs that are out there for teens, these residential programs that folks place kids who are struggling and kind of prey upon families that don't know what to do with adolescents who are in mental health crisis and families that are in crisis trying to navigate. And I, as a young person, was one of those teens who was in crisis, and my family was doing the best they could to figure out what to do to care for me.
Alex Hoffman:And while it was helpful in some ways, it was also harmful in some ways. And seeing the ways in which that kind of care can be both harmful and helpful and holding that nuance and that dialectic is something that is a big part of the care that I try to provide my clients these days, to be able to sit with the ways in which they maybe hold care and even appreciation for the care they've received, but also a lot of pain and heartache for the ways in which it has also harmed them.
Mariana:I hear you saying holding that dialectic, which I think is a term that I've come across, but I wonder if you can say a little bit more about holding the dialectic for our listeners.
Alex Hoffman:When I think of that, I think of the idea of holding two truths that may be seen diametrically opposed that are in fact actually simultaneously true at the same time. For example, this treatment experience was toxic for me, and I found really beneficial parts in this treatment, something like that, where it can sound like they would be diametrically opposed to have had a toxic experience in a treatment environment, but also to have had really beneficial experiences too, and have loved the experience at the same time.
Corina:Alex, my experience since you've come to Live Oak has been that there's these waves that your framing has legs and has informed me certainly, but I also think a lot of people at Live Oak. Just today, was talking to somebody about a safety plan they were working on and we were like, just getting creative at like how we could And the reach of what's possible and that feels like it stands on your shoulders directly in my in my view, but something you and I have talked about is holding the dialectics as a provider as someone who is both doing our best to try to offer care and support and also sometimes causing harm. And I wonder if you'd be willing to share anything about the earliest days of learning that while doing our best, we may also be causing harm.
Alex Hoffman:I think working in residential settings is one of those really hard lessons in providing care that is sometimes necessary, but also sometimes really hard and harmful. At the same time, I think about some of the times working with folks who were in acute crisis in some of the higher levels of care that I've worked at that were hands off, which you would think, and I do agree, is a much less harmful environment, right? Like hands off meaning some residential settings when someone is in acute crisis, maybe self harming or getting physically aggressive. If it's a hands on facility, the staff will likely physically restrain the individual to stop them from hurting themselves or someone else. I worked in a residential facility that was hands off.
Alex Hoffman:So if someone was in acute mental health crisis and hurting themselves or trying to hurt someone else, we were not allowed to physically stop them from doing that. We had to use the relationship and our own interpersonal relationship, like the physical presence, but not the physical touch presence, to work through what was happening and try to deescalate the situation. And thinking about just how difficult and hard it can be to kind of navigate the fact that there would be other people there who were in the program, who were having to sit through that, like, maybe traumatic experience of their peer in mental health crisis, if their peer attempting suicide, their peer self harming, and you wanting to protect them from this experience, maybe wanting to intervene with power and control and stop this person from engaging in this behavior to protect the others in the room. But at the same time, that is traumatizing that person who is in crisis and kind of navigating that nuanced moment and having to use the relationship and your own kind of interpersonal dynamics with everybody in the room to try to deescalate the situation. And that is definitely some of the harms, but also helping that I think about sometimes in those moments where you wonder, was that the right call?
Alex Hoffman:Should there have been some other way? Could there have been some other way? And you never know.
Mariana:How difficult to be choosing between what might feel like two wrongs and yet one of them still beneficial for a person in the room. Alex, I
Corina:find in the world, maybe generally, but in the field that it is not a common strength to be able to lovingly hold with ourselves this duality of doing our best and causing harm with, like, a lack of defendantness. And I wonder if you remember when you started to learn how to do that.
Alex Hoffman:I think that starts before even coming into the field, if I'm being honest. I think that was modeled for me. Truly, I think the person that modeled that most for me was someone that I met in the troubled teen industry, actually. His name was Patrick Zimmerman, and he was someone that I worked with as a clinician. And he was able to honor, unlike the majority of the adults that I engaged with in that environment, it was a hard place that not a lot of adults were able to honor a teen's opinions or a teen's perspective or any kind of wrongdoing on the adults' parts.
Alex Hoffman:And there were a lot of instances, for me in particular, that I, at least at the time and still do in a lot of cases, and some cases I can honor that maybe I was not as right as I felt at the time. But there are many cases where I can look back and say, no, the adults in the room were much more invested in the power and control than they were in the care. And he was one of the few adults who was able to honor the ways in which he was making mistakes. And he was part of the problem too. And to have anyone do that in that environment really mattered.
Mariana:It's modeling something so important to the teens as well of that humility and that ability, even for the teens to be able to say, okay, there are things that maybe I'm not doing right, and I'm still trying to be better and trying to show up as best as possible. And if you're working with troubled teens, then isn't that exactly what you should be trying to communicate to them? That yes, you could be doing things wrong, but that doesn't make you bad.
Alex Hoffman:Right. I know it is such an important thing. I think when working with teenagers, that was such a crucial part of the work for me at least, was honoring that I was making mistakes all the time, Because it's so easy as a teen to think like any one mistake you make is like the end of the world and you're the freak in the room and no one's going to ever be your friend again. And so having the adults in the room be able to honor that they too mess up. And as a teen, to hear an adult say like, I'm sorry, I was the one who was wrong here.
Alex Hoffman:It can be really powerful, especially when you're a teen in an environment where all of your autonomy has been taken from you. You have been taken out of your home environment. You have little to no agency to make any of the choices that your peers are allowed to make day to day. It is very powerful in those moments to have an adult say like, I am sorry, I have messed up.
Corina:I feel like I'm regularly talking with adults who struggle in even hearing me talk about messing up. Not that they're mad about it, but that it's hard to tolerate the ways that it can totally shapeshift a bunch of earlier experiences to have a peer aged adult say, oh, I definitely messed up right there. I've noticed that as people come in for therapy, it can actually be kind of painful for them to tolerate my practice of humility around mistake making. So I just wonder what you notice about how this lesson comes into your work and how people respond to it for you, Alex.
Alex Hoffman:I think it has been such a strengthening thing in the relationship process. Like I'm a relational therapist, I think, first and foremost, in a lot of ways. There was a paper that I had to write in grad school called the Common Factors Paper, which I will never forget, which is the idea that the common factor between all modalities is the most efficacious part of any modality, and the common factor between all modalities is the relationship between the therapist and the client. So just keeping that in mind. But I think it builds on the relationship to honor that you are a human who, at times, is imperfect and will make mistakes.
Alex Hoffman:It's scary crap. You're not, like, just an expert, but it also gives them agency to then know themselves and make mistakes too.
Mariana:Live Oak Chicago is a primarily queer, trauma informed therapy practice located on the North Side Of Chicago, offering both in person and virtual therapy, consultation and workshops. We are committed to the practice of becoming a model of a community of diversely identified humans working together to transform the emotional, psychological and spiritual well-being of individuals, families and communities, beginning with ourselves. To access therapy, training, or consultation, please visit www.liveoakchicago.com. I hear this as an element of that trust process in therapy, and I'm curious how you relate to that whole idea of building safety, building trust. How does that come into the work around supporting people that are in crisis or who need harm reduction work?
Mariana:How do you relate to that?
Alex Hoffman:Interestingly enough, building trust with folks who have treatment related trauma is a real undertaking because they have been harmed by providers like myself. And so it is very easy to be lumped in with the rest of the folks who have hurt them. And so showing up very humanly is often very important. Not inappropriately humanly, like, I'm not still a clinician in the room, but I am always a human in the room. And my traumatized clients are the ones who are the most attuned to me when I am like putting on a facade.
Alex Hoffman:They're the ones who are the most likely to notice when I am trying to put on a front because I've got my own shit going on in the background and trying to like keep that at bay. They're the ones who are first to notice like, Is something up? You're a little bit off today. What's going on? Is something going on in your world?
Alex Hoffman:Why are you like this? Are you mad at me? What's happening? You know, like they're the first to notice because they're so attuned, because they've had to be to keep themselves safe. And so once we let down that guard and just are our human selves, it allows them to feel safe that like, okay, I know what I'm going get in the room.
Alex Hoffman:I know who I'm going to get. I'm going to get Alex, just Alex. Alex, my therapist, but like Alex, my therapist, the human being. Alex, I
Corina:love that. I love this description of a moment of probably a range of many moments when people come to see you have permission to be like, what's up? You know, because again, it speaks to the relationship that they have with you, that they can be like, there is something definitively different today. And I want to know what it's about. So I can be clear that it's not about me because to your earlier point, there's a lot of research that when kids are in contacts with adults who are having a hard time in the absence of very clear and explicit communication that it is not in fact the fault of the child, Kids will always assume it's their fault.
Corina:And it's largely because then we can do something about it as children, then we can solve for it. So this present day opportunity for the people who come to see you to say to you, hey, what's happening? And for you to be like, oh, yeah, you know what, I am definitely having a day. I trust myself to be able to be here with you, but I am having a day. So you are accurately picking up whatever it is that you're noticing is just so beautiful and potentially healing to be like my radars are correct.
Corina:And they've always been correct. I've always known.
Alex Hoffman:Absolutely. And so many of my clients have been told they're crazy for their radars and for their capacity to read people.
Mariana:As y'all are sharing this, I'm noticing within myself, like I'm starting to try to think like how many opportunities have I had for this? And I guess I'm just picking up on the fact that maybe I come up with a little bit of a facade that doesn't allow my clients to ask me how I'm doing or what's up. And so I want to learn from you all. What is that process? How do you all make your way to slowly removing that facade and showing up more authentically so that clients can even feel like they can ask?
Mariana:I guess I'm curious what's coming up for me in this moment is, do my clients feel like they can't even ask how I'm doing?
Alex Hoffman:Yeah. I mean, I work really hard to start opening up the dialogue by opening up the dialogue about feedback, how they feel in the therapy space, how they feel things are going, how they feel about the questions I'm asking, the interventions I'm doing. How does that feel that I interpreted what you just said that way? Like, how does it feel to have me assume that you feel that way about your mom or whatever? How did that feel for you?
Alex Hoffman:Just giving them space to be like, Actually, that really sucked, Alex. I hated that. I hate that you read me to filth that way or whatever, you know? And I can be like, Yeah, I bet that really sucked. I get that.
Alex Hoffman:Giving them the opportunity to tell me that they don't like what I'm doing, and to then let me have whatever response I have to their reaction, and have my human response, whatever that is, and have us all hash it out together in the room and let that be a dialogue that builds up that intimacy and that human interaction. That's one way that I kind of open up that space for that back and forth a little bit of like that reciprocity of feedback. So that if I check-in with them, maybe they can feel like they can check-in with me too.
Corina:I can add that for me, I know it's been an evolution, a journey towards this, I was really hot both in my own life and socialization as well as in the field to perform fineness, goodness, good skillfulness, whatever what good therapist Vibes and it took years and it was definitely here at Live Vogue. In the last thirteen years, and I would say one of the first people who started to teach me this was Jeff Levy, who was on our podcast earlier. Jeff taught me to bring in the humanity. The three stage model for trauma informed care helped me understand relationship development as an element of the process. And it helped me understand what we in the field might talk about is like defensiveness or reactivity as just an indicator of where the relationship is.
Corina:That's how I learned to think about it at the time. And it made everything feel so much less personal that like the stuff that was happening might be personal, but very often was so much more about historical Experiences. For me in the perfectionism of it all that helped me take the pressure off and help me perceive people's reactions as information and data. And that began this process of starting to be less scared of feedback and to understand that feedback was like gonna deepen the work. That has been my experience over and over and over again is I'm a Virgo so I can get geeky and overly enthusiastic about things.
Corina:But like now, when someone tells me that I've hurt them or that I messed up, I'm genuinely a bit excited because I'm a Virgo. Because it's going to mean that we get to go to a place we didn't get to go with you before. And because I've seen now at this point 1,000 times that when I mess up that it's not hard for me to be present for it. I might feel sad or disappointed or hurt, but that that won't be a barrier in a long term way to me like hearing what it was that I did that was harmful and then being responsive to the feedback. And then in the opposite direction, I'm really a geek for a mirroring opportunity.
Corina:I noticed that when I mess up and then we can tolerate my humanity together that it like makes a lot more room for folks to share about their most human mistakes too. So that's been my evolution. If it feels like there's a journey in front of you, just welcome you on the journey because there was a long time on this journey that I was performing, that I was getting things right. And I think I caused a lot of harm from that position. Not systematically, it's not all or nothing, but I think I caused a lot of harm from that place.
Mariana:That makes sense. It doesn't open up as many opportunities to learn even just about your client if you're not taking the time to say, I don't know, and this is something where I did wrong, and things like that.
Alex Hoffman:I think I also let myself emote in therapy. I think that also creates space.
Mariana:How do you feel like those emotions come into play with moments of crisis with clients?
Alex Hoffman:I think that that has like allowed them, one, to see my humanity, but two, to also see that I'm there with them. I'm in it with them. I also am a human who is feeling with them in those moments. I'm not just like a blank slate just absorbing their suffering. Like, I feel how much they hurt and how much it hurts what they're talking about.
Alex Hoffman:I'm not making it about my reaction, but I'm not going to stifle the fact that, like, tears are coming to my eyes while they talk about something.
Corina:I can say I've had the privilege of being with you in the face of emotional experiences related to your clients and my experience of witnessing it. Whereas maybe as a younger therapist, I would have thought that that was an indicator of like overwhelm or incapacity or something. I've experienced in relationship to you is my perception is it actually shows me something about the depth of your sense of responsibility in this work and the importance and value. That's how I I like interpret the words that you say and that your emotion is at least among other things this place where that commitment shows itself. That's my perception.
Alex Hoffman:Yeah, totally. I'll take it.
Mariana:What do you think are some of the things that you know now Alex about the work that you're doing that you would wish to offer to younger therapists you or even like I'm thinking about younger you that was in the traumatized teen industry. Like, what are some things that you know now that you wish those versions of Alex knew?
Alex Hoffman:Oh, I think little Alex could have really used some just understanding that, like, just because folks can't own their mistakes doesn't mean that, like, you're bad, you know? I think she could have used that. But I think for little therapist me, some more chances to honor that like, your humanity is not dangerous, because I was very afraid of being authentic early on in my career. And like, I have tattoos and scars and all sorts of things that are markers of my individuality that I covered. I wore long sleeves every day to work for years, and long sleeves, long pants every day for at least six years to work, year round.
Alex Hoffman:And that was something that I did because I wasn't sure I knew how to use my humanity in a healthy way, and I wasn't sure that there was a way to be both a human and a clinician, given my history. And I think letting little therapist me know that your humanity is not dangerous. It is in fact a tool and an asset.
Corina:I would make the case that even your humanity, our humanity is like our most essential asset, or at least for the kind of work that you do and the kind of work I try to do.
Mariana:Right. Especially if we're connecting back to what you shared initially about finding that so many of your clients are coming from like treatment trauma. It's that probably the difference between being in a space with you versus in those spaces is that they feel like they're actually with a human and not somebody that's trying to control them. Or as you said, inflict power on them.
Corina:Alex, I'm wondering what is the biggest difference between what you thought it would be like to become a provider and what it has turned out to be like to become a provider?
Alex Hoffman:Oh, man. When I first thought about becoming a provider, I thought I maybe wanted to work in the troubled teen industry. There was a mixed up relationship with it, holding that dialectic of both like, feeling really attached to that experience and feeling really traumatized by that experience and not knowing how to relate to it. And I think that in the beginning, was a big part of it, was finding out how to relate to that experience. And now I relate so differently than I did in the beginning.
Mariana:One of the biggest things we are hoping to get out of this, like, season of the podcast is for people to understand how many different paths there are in our field and how to come to those areas. And I'm curious whether you feel like there were certain things that helped you develop this area of expertise, or if it was more like one of those things where life kind of guided you to where you are now.
Alex Hoffman:Life kind of guided me here. I had a real debate for myself whether art or psychology was going to be kind of the focus for my professional world, and happenstance in life kind of had me fall into psychology as the capitalism bent of things. But art is still a big part of my world, for sure.
Corina:Would you mind sharing what your relationship with art looks like these days, as you're not primarily capitalist venture of life joy?
Alex Hoffman:Absolutely. It is a joy. It is just a joy as opposed to a capitalist endeavor, which I think allows it to be a joy much more easily than if it was much more related to capitalism and money and subsisting under capitalism.
Corina:Really interesting. So I've been at Live Oak for thirteen years, and something I've noticed is that as we, as an organization of humans, have become more practiced in connecting with our humanity, that more and more people here have art practices as some component of their life that they explicitly engage with regularly and myself as well. And I don't want to jump to any inherent conclusions, but I just noticed that they seem to go together.
Mariana:It's an art and a science.
Corina:That's right. And maybe something about making room for art is something that falls out of being connected with humanity. I don't know. I can't, you know, assume it, but maybe.
Mariana:Do you all find that you ever utilize that research of art and creativity in this work that we're talking about? Helping people that have been traumatized by treatment and just the work in general?
Alex Hoffman:Art is definitely something that shows up some in the work that I do. I'm not an art therapist, so it's not maybe like the focus of a lot of the work, but for the folks that it is something that feels helpful or useful or something they're interested in, I definitely love to incorporate it when folks are interested.
Corina:Yeah, for me, I do also sometimes incorporate actual art making in session. But I think that for me, it's equally about inviting people into practices of being in session. Jack's Black, who I sometimes talk about says like what falls out from that place. So lead people to connect with practices, art practices, creative practices, or even just mindful practices.
Mariana:I come from a past of like doing theater and specifically playwriting. And I think I noticed in a lot of the plays that I wrote that it was a very cathartic process of like, Oh, why am I always talking about this specific theme and everything I write about? And why is this character so modeled off of me? And I found it, I think, probably useful and freeing to be able to make art and write about the thing that I was impacted by. And I think I bring it into session through like what I tell myself is narrative therapy.
Mariana:Classic thing in our field is, oh, there's so many different therapy modalities and ultimately we're just doing a thing that feels helpful. And I think to me it's almost also about inviting my clients that have experienced some sort of trauma to write their story and then try to rewrite it in a frame where they feel more resolved. And I'm curious if there are aspects of that that you all bring into your work.
Alex Hoffman:Yeah, I think definitely I work with folks to try to relate differently to their experience of treatment and trying to empower them to hold on to their agency in a different way and feel the ways in which they have agency over their experience. Not necessarily like their experience in treatment, but like their experience post treatment and how they can relate to it and relate to their story of their experience, how they relate to the people who inflicted trauma upon them in their experience, and things like that.
Corina:What I feel inspired to offer about that is just that I've experienced this from you, Alex, and I perceive that you do a beautiful job of helping people hold lovingly the ways that they have been harmed, that we have all have been harmed, and also be able to hold or learn to hold and practice holding the ways that we all cause harm too. And that speaks to the agency piece. It is certainly true that we have all been harmed, And also we have agency in the present day to be accountable for the ways that we are causing harm to. Mariana, I wonder what's standing out for you today.
Mariana:I'm struck by the way that we started with talking about generally just the idea of treatment trauma and made it into the space of talking so much about humanity in general, and the aspects of you all's humanity and your humanity, how that plays into this. And that feels like the most important, maybe nugget of wisdom of all of this, that aspect of without humanity and without feeling truly ourselves in this space with somebody that is hurting, there is only so much we can do. And maybe that is also the aspect of what you're highlighting, Alex, was harmful of some of those treatment spaces that people were forgetting, even within themselves, the clinicians were forgetting that they're human. And that feels like the biggest thing you're sharing today.
Alex Hoffman:Absolutely. So much about what is traumatizing for folks about some levels of treatment can be for both clinicians and folks in the treatment is the loss of humanity and the loss of personhood and agency.
Corina:I think that's beautifully said. Alex. I love this conversation. I couldn't have mapped it out more beautifully. These are all things I would have loved for us to get to talk about.
Corina:And when I think about new therapists who tend to be the folks who are listening, there's almost nothing more I would want them to know than the things that you were willing to share today. So thank you.
Mariana:Thank you so much, Alex.
Corina:Bye. Have a good weekend.
Alex Hoffman:Bye. You too.