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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Becky Mollenkamp: Hi, how are you?
Taina Brown: I'm good, I'm a little sleepy right now, but because of the time difference, but good.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yes, just for those who, and why would anyone know actually, so for everyone except for me,
Taina Brown: For those who don't stalk me.
Becky Mollenkamp: You're in Hawaii as of when we're recording this, we don't know when we'll run it, but lovely. But it also means you're up bright and early to talk.
Taina Brown: It's a six hour time difference, which I mean, I've been on a six hour time difference before, just never backwards, always forward.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, thank you for getting up this early. You didn't have to.
Taina Brown: Anything for you, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp: And yet I appreciate it. Well, it's for us. This is for us. And I think in some ways it should be interesting to see if it feeds into the topic I was thinking we could talk about, which is this last week, as of when we're recording this, I also had exciting things happening, but mine were not Hawaii. Mine was endless amounts of time on the toilet. No, I had a vestibular migraine for a couple of days followed by my son's norovirus, which actually was more like just horrible stomach cramping mostly, but it was awful. So all told between the migraine and the norovirus, and I mean, just talk about, isn't that how life goes when it's one thing, it's all of them. It was basically like five days of me being pretty much bedridden, not really moving and doing much. And that was really challenging for me, even though I am at my core, a lazy son of a gun. I would prefer to just lay around and watch Netflix literally all day every day if I could. But when I actually am forced to lay down and rest like that, I have all the guilt, all the guilt. I'm not contributing enough. I'm not doing enough in my business. I'm not doing enough in my home. I'm not doing enough for my son, for my husband, for everyone. And even though I would like to be able to just lay here and enjoy this rest because I actually really love to rest and just, you know, be at leisure. I mean, obviously it wasn't that kind of rest because I was feeling horrible, but I couldn't do it well. And it made me think about the why of it. And I was like, there is so much systemic stuff wrapped up in this that I have clearly not been able to release. Despite how much I talk to my clients about it, despite how much I talk about to the world, I am wearing a shirt that says, I am a human being, not a human doing, a shirt that I had made, right? This is my shirt, I made it. Because it's such a part of my philosophy and the way I coach and yet I found myself when it was my turn to just be a human being, I was like, better for everybody else, not for me. So I think we could talk about rest, caring for ourselves, forced rest, but really more about when you're sick or unable to function as a business owner, unable to do your work, what comes up for you and how do you manage that? And so I'm wondering, when we talked about this beforehand, I gave a hint of what I wanted to talk about, you said this is something you have some experience with.
Taina Brown: Yeah because you know, I was in the hospital earlier this year for a lot longer than I wanted to be, for sure. I mean, whoever wants to be in the hospital. But so, you know, and as you were just sharing your experience, the one thing that came up for me was, I am also a lay on the couch, binge Netflix kind of person. And there's a sense of control that is challenged when you're sick and you have to lay on the couch and not do anything. And so for me, the things that I was grappling with when I was forced to rest because it's what my body needed was letting go of that control that I thought I had over my life. And that was hard. That was fucking hard. I mean, it took me to like a really dark place because it was just like, all of a sudden you realize that any sense of control that you thought you had was an illusion. And the glass, the veil shatters and you're just like, whoa, then what am I? It becomes this existential crisis. Cause then you're just like, what, what, what am I actually doing? How do I make sense of this? How do I reconcile the idea of doing my day-to-day regular life stuff with the idea that I actually have no control sometimes, or really all the time, over what's really happening here. And so I think for me, what helped me in that situation was there's external shit and there's internal shit. And I have control over the internal stuff. I can manage that and decide and choose, but I don't have control about the external things. I want to be clear, because when I say control, yes, I'm a control freak. Yes, I am. I know. But what I'm also speaking to is this sense of agency, this sense of power that as women we are used to having to constantly fight for. And then you start your business and that feels very empowering. That feels like you're really having this sense of agency that you may not get in a nine-to-five office setting or whatever, and then you get sick and now all of a sudden it's like your agency is stripped away from you again. So yes control, but also this idea of having the ability to choose for yourself, the agency and the power, the self-determination that comes with that.
Becky Mollenkamp: I want to talk about the existential crisis piece because I realized the whole time I was having all of these, I'm going to change my life kind of feelings as I was laying there and like things are going to change. And it's funny because in the moment you think, even the rational part of is like, yeah, right, we'll see. But honestly, I'm now like two days better. So it's not been a long time, but I still feel like something different in the way I’m feeling and carrying myself. First of all, I cleaned my desk. I can see my desk because part of it was like, I just I want I want less. I had this feeling, because part of it is, I think the reason I got to the first part of my issue, the migraine, because of stress, because I've been doing too much. I'm taking on too much knowing it, but also it's all stuff I want to do and it all sounds great. And not allowing for help. And so that was this, I had this big feeling related to that of like, rather than and I'm surprised because a lot of times my brain will go to you did this to yourself, like punishing myself, shaming myself, feeling bad about it. Instead of that, it was more like, it's time for some change, Becky. And so going to the piece of what can I control? I was having all these existential crises around I need to make a change because I don't want to be here again. And so what can I change? And I guess that's a part of what can I can change, not just internally, but externally. But I was having both of those feelings of okay, externally, what are the changes I want to make in my world and the way I'm running my business, the way I'm showing up, how much I'm saying yes to what I'm saying yes to. Part of it was like and just having a clean, clearer slate because I knew I had so much stuff and that's adding to the feeling of overwhelm. And then internally, too, about what do I need to do to be able to make those changes? I need to make some and set better boundaries. I need to do a better job of saying no. I have to do a better job of thinking through priorities. What needs to happen now? What can wait? Cause I have a tendency to get excited about things as you know, and want to do everything right now.
Taina Brown: You? No, never.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, right. So I was having quite the existential crisis. So it's funny that you're saying that cause I thought, as I was going through it, I'm like, whoa, I feel like I'm rethinking my whole life because I'm sick for four days, five days, and that seems so silly. But also, I think maybe it is what you're talking about. You're just feeling so helpless in a way and without any agency. And you just don't want to be in that position. And we're all going to be sick again, you don't avoid it. But what are the things I can control, like you were saying.
Taina Brown: Yeah, it's that feeling of just like being so powerless and so and I think that's what drives that these are the changes I'm gonna make, which I mean not that those changes are coming from an awful place, but I think when you're in a place where you feel powerless, you immediately are like, okay how can I tap back into my power? How can I tap back into my sense of agency? And I think that speaks to, because one thing you said was like, instead of going to, you brought this on yourself, you went to, okay, what are the changes I need to make so I don't end up here again? That is a map of personal growth because when we get stuck in that point of I brought this on myself, whatever, when you're in that mindset, at this point, now you're perpetrating the sense of powerlessness. It went from external to internal, and now you are taking away your power. You're stripping away your agency because you've bought into this belief that whatever is happening externally is your fault, that you did have some control over that. And because it went wrong, now you're the one to blame. And so I think it's important to realize that. When you are going through something where you feel powerless, whether it's being sick or being laid off from a job or having a traumatic experience or something, and you don't get there automatically, everyone has a process that they go through mentally and emotionally to get there, but the goal is to get to the point where you're just like, okay, how can I tap back into my power and my agency? What can I do right now? Feel the feelings for sure. I'm definitely not saying don't feel your feelings, but getting to that point of tapping back into your agency, that's where you're gonna start to feel powerful again. And that's where you're gonna start to feel in control of what you can actually control again.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. And it does represent growth for me because I know in the past I've been in that place of ‘you did this to yourself’ sort of thing. I think part of it is the power of the work that we both try to do with our clients and do internally, which is a lot of that looking beyond the self and systemically and seeing yourself as a part of this bigger ecosystem in which we all exist and how so much of what we internalize is truly external and then we take it inside. And so much of it is our fault. We can't change all of these external things, as you said earlier. Where you have the controls inside. And so it comes down to do I want to internalize that stuff that's out there? Am I going to allow them to give it to me, or do I reject that? And that piece has helped because even with the migraine, as an example, where I could say I did this to myself, because as I said, it was stress. It was me taking a lot of things on. So that could sound easily without having done any of that other work to say this is my fault. It's all me. I'm bad. I'm wrong. I should know better, whatever. But I can also look at that and say, but what made me feel the need to take all of that on? What made me feel that pressure to do so much? And it's not just because of how I naturally show up in the world or some things. There's that component. But, you know, there's also the pressure to make money that's very real in my world right now, right? And so, doing more, it's getting caught up in all of these capitalist ideas. If I work harder, if I work more, I'll make more, and then everything's gonna be better. So there's that. There's also a lot of this external stuff that's given to me about what success looks like, not just the money piece, but also the achievement or doing X number of things, having my name here or there. And so there's that. And then the other piece that I could pinpoint external to me and systemic that might put me in that place of getting to the overwhelming the migraine is feeling like I have to perform femininity, meaning we don't say no, it's harder for women to say no. And what does it say about me if I say no to an opportunity or if I tell someone no, what is that saying about my gratitude or am I a bitch? Am I not being kind? And so there's like all of these factors that are outside of me that maybe I've internalized them, you know, we all do. And it's hard to reject them every moment. And that's what it looks like when we take all of that on is that can lead to our body shutting down. I mean, it felt like my body just saying, whoa, you have taken on way too much of this external conditioning and allowing it to show up, and I'm going to show you this is what it looks like when you do that. And so for me, like I could say it's all my fault or I could say, no, it's not. And then the other piece of it is the norovirus. Yeah, I had no control over it, and I can look at the systems outside of me that make me start to feel guilty for taking rest that I need as a human. The thing that says moms are supposed to be the ones doing X, Y, and Z for their children. My husband was perfectly capable of taking care of our child. He did a fantastic job. And yet, and he kept telling me, every time I got up, I would keep getting up to try and do something. I'd try to pick up a couple of things around the house, you know, and then I'd be back in the bed moaning because my stomach hurt. You know, I'd be trying to find something to do. He'd be like, what are you doing? I'm like, I know and yet I feel this guilt, this overwhelming guilt as I'm laying there, hearing you tending to the kid and trying to do all the dishes and the laundry. And we have a pretty equal division of labor in our home, and I just wasn't able to pull my weight for like three, four days and I felt massive guilt. And that is all that conditioning that we get as women and moms and parents about how we're supposed to show up. So yeah, and I'm sure for you, because, again, I'm talking five days. You were in the hospital for like weeks, right?
Taina Brown: Yeah, I was in the hospital for 32 days total. And I think after about 10 to 15 days, I just gave up. I was like, yeah, there's nothing I can do. I'm just going to lay here and watch Jeopardy every night. And that'll be the one thing that makes me happy.
Becky Mollenkamp: Good for you.
Taina Brown: But it was rough because I am a former or recovering toxic individualist. And so I am used to being the strong one, being the one that everybody else relies on, being the person that people go to, the one that always has the plan, the one that always is doing the things. And so while I was hospitalized, we were also moving. And so there was so much shit going on at one time that it felt almost like this mental and emotional prison for me because it was like, there's no way out of this at all. And so I really just have to sit here and just grapple with how I'm feeling and what that means. I mean, the good thing about being hospitalized for 32 days is that you have all the time in the world to think about things. I think to this day, I still don't know some of the things that as a family, my wife and I had to rely on other people to do for us. There are still details that, I still don't know everything that happened behind the scenes. And so a part of me wants to know to be able to then step in and to take control back, but in that really toxic way of just being like, oh my God, thank you so much. Let me send you something, right? Cause now I'm the one who's doing the thing.
Becky Mollenkamp: The owing, because I owe you basically.
Taina Brown: Yes, exactly. And so, and so I'm having this mental and emotional battle since being discharged, which was back in fucking March. And I'm still dealing with this and it's like, I don't owe anybody anything. These people stepped in because they care, because they wanted to, not because they were expecting something in return. And so all I have to do is receive that care and appreciate it and say, thank you. But I'm that person that's like, you give me something, I'm going to give you something back.
Becky Mollenkamp: Receiving is so hard. And do we think, I don't know, we'll never know because neither of us are cishet men, but do we think it's as hard for cishet white men to receive as it is for the rest of us? My inclination is no because I have noticed with my partner, it doesn't seem like the answer is yes. He seems able to receive pretty easily. What is it that makes it so hard for us to receive?
Taina Brown: Yeah, I think it goes back to what you were saying. We're so conditioned to be the doers, to be the nurturers, the ‘taking care of business’ people. We're not used to being the receivers. And honestly, when you ask, is it as hard for men to receive, I was like, considering the amount of blowjob scenes and porn, that I've seen, no, I don't think it's hard for men to receive. I think they expect it.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yes, yes, yes. Because we don't see, I know, well, not that I want to go too far down the porn rabbit hole, because that's a whole other conversation that I think we should have sometime. But that I, that is, because when you see a man giving woman, giving a woman pleasure in straight porn, it is remarkable. It just seems like porn intake starts for boys very young, younger than I would like it to as I think about my child and how soon that may be coming my way. And I worry about that, like thinking how soon that starts for boys, they start to learn that. And if that is what they're being inundated with, you know, from their earliest days of seeing this, they're not being taught to give. They're being taught that receiving pleasure is their right, like because it's every time this is going to happen. And even forget about blow jobs vs. eating someone out, but also just orgasms. The male orgasm is guaranteed at the end, this is gonna happen, and you can tell the women's orgasms are, they're just throughout because they're fake as fuck, right? Yeah, it's fake. And so what are we learning then when we start to watch that? Men are learning as boys, too young, that their pleasure is guaranteed and is a given and that they should expect it, and women are learning to pretend that we're happy to pretend we have pleasure. And so yeah, I mean, obviously this extends well beyond sex, but I just think it's such an interesting point because yeah, it feels like in all the ways, including sex, we're learning from such an early age that we are not guaranteed pleasure, but we better smile and act like we're happy. And so if that's the case, then even when you're sick, you gotta smile and act like you're still okay. And don't let anybody take care of you.
Taina Brown: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, in operating within the gender binary, we are socialized to participate in an extractive society. And men are socialized to be the extractors and women are socialized to be the ones that are being extracted from. So women, young girls, and this is speaking exclusively within the gender binary. Obviously, we know that the gender binary is a construct, it's not real. But women, young girls are taught to give, give, give, give, give and not receive. We are a resource to be extracted from, and men are the extractors. They are the purveyors of extraction. They are the ones who enjoy the benefit of extraction.
Becky Mollenkamp: That makes me wonder about being in a same -sex relationship and if there are differences in those dynamics when you're talking about two women instead of it being a man and a woman because all of this ingrained stuff that we get about what it means to be in a relationship or well how men and women show up in relationship often. And I can see that dynamic in my relationship even though he and I are both actively trying to work against those things. It definitely shows up. And so I wonder with your relationship, do you see it being different than men knowing that or men learning that they can receive no problem and women always having to give?
Taina Brown: I'm married to a woman, I'm pansexual, she's gay. And so, but there's still a lot of internalized misogyny that we have to work through. And so I think some of the ways that it is different is that we're both women, so we've both been socialized to give. We're also both eldest daughters. So we've been socialized to give exponentially, you know, and just take care of the family and almost be like a stand-in mom at times, you know. But we're also both Capricorns, so we're also both highly independent. And so we're both always trying to have the last word. We're always trying to be the one that gives the most. It's this battle, right? So there's a lot of social conditioning that we have to kind of disrupt. I think one of the ways that it is different is that because we're both women and we have recognized this is the water that we swim in, I feel like it might take us either less time to figure out that that's what's happening, and-or it's easier to then have those conversations when we do figure out what's happening because we have some shared experience as women in this world, and eldest daughters, and Capricorns also. We’ve just been super conditioned to give all the time as opposed to receive. So I mean, in a funny way, we always try to outdo each other with surprises, birthdays or anniversary things. And so that makes for some really great gifts.
Becky Mollenkamp: But both of you struggling to receive them without feeling guilty, or now I have to do this.
Taina Brown: Exactly, without having to outdo the other person the next time around.
Becky Mollenkamp: I think what it really tells us is that it really just doesn't matter. None of us can escape this. It is just there for all of us, no matter what. And the thing I will say though, is that where that used to be something that felt bad to me. Oh my God, I'm never gonna undo all of this. And for people who are at the beginning of their own messy liberation process, that can feel discouraging. It can feel like what's the point? I'll never be able to undo it. If you've been doing this work all this time and you still find it. And I would say it doesn't matter how long you do this work, it'll always be there. Let's pretend there was some mythical world where you could excavate all of it and now say, I am fully cleansed from all the external conditioning, the second you go back out into the world, you're breathing it back in and there's gonna be more of it inside of you that finds its way in. It's just such a part of our life that this is gonna be like a lifelong job. And I find that exciting now, but I know it isn't always exciting for people.
Taina Brown: Yeah, no, it can feel really heavy when you're first starting out and when you wake up for the first time and you're just like, there's so much, how do I do this every single day? But it's also a creative project. And so that, to me, feels, I wouldn't say fun, but it feels hopeful for sure. And it is an opportunity to create something different. To just wipe the slate clean metaphorically, and just be like, okay, I don't want to function like this, how can I function differently in this situation? And so, and I think as you continue to do that, then you start to build new models of functioning in society that have ripple effects. And it makes me think about the quote from Angela Davis, where she says ‘you have to live as if it were possible to change the world.’ There's that hope piece. You have to believe in the possibility that there's a different way to do it. And then you have to live that way every day so there's the work. It's a combination of hope and effort to figure out a new way to just live in the world.
Becky Mollenkamp: And we'll keep having these conversations to help share a little light on how messy this thing is because we're both in the path of doing it and still in the mess. And so we'll keep having these conversations. And we're going to end this with a question from our community. It's kind of a long one, but I want to preface it by saying it's a question about being a single mom and neither of us are single moms. I'm a mom in a fairly equal relationship. You're not a mom. And so neither of us are living this experience, however, we are both the children of single moms. So just to preface like what we bring into this conversation. So the question is long, so be ready. Balancing business changes with life as a single mom can be pretty difficult when you're the one filling all of the roles in all aspects of work and life. Do you have advice for the entrepreneur that is at a business point where they need help but can't afford to hire help? For example, I'm confident I could grow my business exponentially if I were able to hire an assistant. However, I need every penny my business makes in my personal life and cannot make the move yet. I tried restructuring the business late last year to potentially require less help, but the change is moving slower than anticipated and the disappointment is real and I'm trying not to feel discouraged. Even though I'm not a single mom, as a mom and just as a business owner, I understand this. And I think almost any business owner, especially in the beginning or when they're not yet making a lot of money can understand that. And what it first brought up for me when I read it was what you mentioned earlier in the episode about toxic individualism. And you said you're recovering. I don't even know if I can say I'm in recovery yet, but I'm in recovery, but I'm like two days sober. I'm still very much in the process of trying to recover and unhook from that. But it makes me think about collective care and going from toxic individualism to thinking about interdependence and how we relate as a community and something bigger than just ourselves. Because inside of this, it sounds like this one person who's taking on all the roles and all the responsibility and all the pressure. And it just makes me feel like, could it be an invitation for this person to begin to explore what does my community look like? Do I have community? Can my business exist beyond just me? Can I think of my business not just as a me thing, but as part of this community, as a collective experience? And what might shift if I do? Who's already in my world that maybe I could bring in if only I allowed myself to? Because almost all of us have some amount of community that we can turn to. It's just that we usually aren't, and we don't feel like we are allowed to. So that's the first thing that I think about when I hear it. But again, I think this may be an area where you have even more thoughts than I do, because you speak really well to interdependence versus independence.
Taina Brown: Yeah, and I have, adrienne maree brown and Octavia Butler to thank for that. I think what stood out to me when I read this question is where is that sense of urgency coming from? And so if there's like a financial need or a very real, pressing need, obviously that's a different situation, but if the sense of urgency is coming from this idea of where you think your business should be because you see the way other people's businesses are being run or are evolving or just this idea of I wish I were further along than where I actually am. Then I think that is where there's an opportunity to just really get curious about why do I feel like what's happening right now is not enough? Because it sounds like you're making the steps. You're doing the things that you need to do to get to the point where you can eventually hire someone and create space in your day to day for something like that. And so going back to that whole idea of toxic capitalism. Again, I'm not a single mom, I'm just a dog mom. So there could be very real circumstances that this person is navigating. And if so, then that's a completely different conversation. But I think grappling with that hustle culture, I'm a business owner, so I constantly have to be doing things and I have to just scale all the time.
Becky Mollenkamp: My shirt, we're human beings, not human doings. It's so much easier said than done
Taina Brown: It is. And so, and this is just another way for you to practice that. And so I have lately been thinking of my business as a garden, like I'm building a garden. And as I tend to that, there's a process for each thing. There's a timeline for each thing that cannot be rushed. And so are there other life principles that you can apply to your business? And so we have this tendency to compartmentalize. And I think you were speaking to this when you were talking about bringing your community into your business as well. And so we have this tendency to compartmentalize and think that the Taina who is the business owner is different from the Taina who is a part of her community. And that's not true because I'm just one person. So wherever I go, my community goes with me. My community is a part of that, whether that's intentional or not. But you get to decide how intentional you want to be with that. And I think that's a great way to create space and to fill a need that this person might be having. Depending on how old your kids are, like if they're older and have the capacity to, and if you have the capacity to as well as a parent, because I know bringing your kids into a project with you can sometimes feel like more work. Bring them in, in little small ways where they can be helpful, and be a part of that part of your life as well because your children are also a part of your community. One thing that I saw as a child growing up and that I see a lot of parents do these days is they keep their kids separate from their personal life. And that's just another facet of compartmentalization that we think we should be doing.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I love that. And the other piece of this that I because I agree on the urgency thing and that's such capitalist conditioning that we have. And the other piece along with that is that the change is moving slower than I anticipated. And it's this idea that can you enjoy the process? Can you enjoy the process of getting there and not just getting there? So if we are only focused on. I want to bring this help on so that my business can grow X percent. And I'll be able to enjoy this or be happy when I reach this X level of growth that you can feel inside of this question. And I see it all the time. I do it to myself all the time. You know, I get so fixated on the end result that I'm not enjoying the process. But the truth is we spend 90 percent, 99 percent of our life in process because as soon as we get to the one goal, the bar moves. We extend the finish line out farther and now we're already into a new goal. Most of the time we don't even notice when we've reached what was once the destination because we've already moved it two or three times since we had originally said, if I just got to this, it would feel better. We don't remember that. I think part of it is taking time to actually notice when you're reaching milestones and allowing some celebration so we can actually have those moments of feeling good, but also learning how can I enjoy the process of getting there? What would make the experience of building your business feel better? And one piece of that internally is releasing the pressure around the destination because just saying like I can just enjoy doing the work and then celebrate little milestones along the way, but I can enjoy doing the work that will change so much because that's such a part of that toxic Capitalism is getting focused on the end. If we're only focused on, end result is the only thing that ever matters and process is always hard and filled with ick, then you're fucked because you're always gonna be in the ick. So I think that that piece for me is really important and then the other part is just this part about the disappointment is real I'm trying not to feel discouraged. I just want to say that the disappointment is real, and that's also okay. Enjoy the process and it's okay to acknowledge that this is hard. There's grief inside of that because you had an expectation that's not being met. Unmet expectations are really what grief is about. So allow yourself to feel that too.
Taina Brown: I love your phrasing there about the process. Like the goalposts are constantly moving and creating a business, owning a business is a creative process. And what we know about creativity is that the process is just as important, if not more important than the end result. It's all about how you get there.
Becky Mollenkamp: I loved your gardening metaphor because that you hinted at earlier, but because it's like if you're a gardener, for me this is not a great metaphor, but I would probably have another project. But for gardeners, you enjoy gardening, even on the days when you're pulling weeds, even on the days when nothing's bloomed yet. You enjoy gardening. That's why you do it.
Taina Brown: Yeah. I just put in some plants in our garden at home and it's like, they all have different, they are on different levels and I don't have everything that I want planted there. So it looks like a mess right now, but I stand back and I'm just like, damn, I did that. I did that. I'm getting to the point to where I want it to be. And I'm enjoying the process of picking out the plants and picking out where to put them. And even though it doesn't look like what I want my finished product to look like. It's getting there. I'm in the middle of it. I'm in the middle of the creative process, and that's enjoyable.
Becky Mollenkamp: And just think about that garden because even when you get it to where you want it, there's inevitably a decline, and then it starts to rot and wilt and change and then die off and then things lie fallow and then the whole process starts again and that feels like such a metaphor for business. So as much as I'm not a gardener, I love the metaphor and I'm gonna steal it and think about it because I always talk about the seeds we plant in business. And so that's, think about that to the person who asked this question is like, even if you're not able to be planting all the seeds you want, you're still planting seeds and they will pay off. And yeah, it might take longer than you want, but they're going to pay off. So I hope that was helpful for that person. It was helpful for me. And as always, I've enjoyed having this conversation with you and I can't wait to keep having more of them.