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Hi, friend! I'll keep this short and sweet, because ADHD!
Whether you're newly diagnosed or have known for a century, Outsmart ADHD is the podcast for you. Join me and my guests as we explore the latest research, share personal stories, and provide actionable advice to help you live your best life with ADHD.
Welcome to the Outsmart ADHD podcast. I'm your host, Jamie Cuttino, board certified occupational therapist, two time TED speaker, ADHD coach, ADHD advocate, and reality show contestant. Now, let's talk about ADHD.
Hello, my friends. I hope you're as excited as I am. As you know, by now, I cannot lie to save my life. So all of my enthusiasm is so genuine. Today I have Kat Sweeney. She is an ADHD coach and with ADHD who works primarily with parents to help them ditch the shame and guilt and become the connected, co regulated and curious coach like parent to their kids with ADHD.
Hang on. Parent with their kids with ADHD that need to thrive at home, in school, and in the world. Reading was hard for me in that moment, even though it's 10 30 and I have taken my ADHD meds. Kat, thank you so much for being with us today. So excited to be here, Jamie. I have to, I have to say, You were super excited a month or so ago when you had Jessica McCabe, you got to do Jessica McCabe on your show.
I feel that way now, but I'm so fan girl. Stop it right now! Oh my god, shut the front fucking door. That's I've been telling everybody, like, That girl, remember Jamie? I've been telling you about Jamie? I'm going on her podcast. Oh my god, I like have chills. That's that is so freaking sweet. And I'm sure like as you know, like imposter syndrome I'm like, how the fuck could anyone feel like that about me?
I'm like, I'm just Jamie like Who the fuck am I, you know, but Yeah, well, I could go on about my feelings for you. I think you are amazing, and you've been super helpful to me, and inspirational, so I'm super excited to be here. Well, you're great, and when you were at my boot camp, and just talking about like, Just not even just your knowledge, but the way that you help parents and just seeing how you got emotional talking about just loving what you do and why you do what you do.
I'm just like, come on my podcast, please. Like, please talk about, about all the things because you are, you are, you're just like this beautiful. Ball of knowledge, but the way that you explain it in a way that makes sense. And then you throw out some terms that I was not even super familiar with. And I'm like, okay, well, let's talk about these things because our people need to know what, like exactly how you do what you do.
Okay. First of all, oh my gosh. I forgot that my microphone was right in front of me. Apparently, I'm trying to hit it with my pen right now. Um, you talk about being a curious coach like parent. And I'm curious what you mean by that. Obviously, we're both coaches, so I know what a coach is, but I'm just like, I never thought about being a coach like parent.
So what do you mean by that? That's a great question. When, when I took coach training, um, a while back, everything I learned in it felt like something I could have used to connect with my kids when they were younger. My kids are adults now, but when they were younger and they have ADHD, um, and, and it just got me to thinking that one of the, you know, the main things about coaching is we don't tell clients what to do.
We don't. In general, you know, we don't tell clients what to do, we help them figure it out, you know, um, and we're supposed to be curious, like, and, and it just came to mind to me that, like, if I had been more curious about what was going on for my kiddos back then, I would have been able to communicate so much more effectively, and I think their childhood would have been happier for both of us.
And so, you know, I really want to be able to give parents those tools to reach the kids that, you know, traditional parenting advice isn't worth it. Well, you know, if you are your kid's enforcer or your kid's rule maker or your kid's nag, they're not going to connect with you. Right. And so if you don't have that connection, nothing else that comes after matters.
That's so true. And I feel like this is especially true when you have kids that have ADHD because they're already. There already might be those. I mean, like, kids are just a smaller version of us, right? So, I, having ADHD, I don't like being told what the fuck to do. There's a reason why you and I work for ourselves, because we can't be told what to do by even a boss.
And the idea that it's somehow different when you're a child is just not accurate. Well, you and I both know that our, our kiddos with ADHD and adults hear exponentially more negative input, right? They're told what to do, they're told to stop, stop doing this, sit still, be quiet, you know, act like a lady.
Yeah, all of that. And, and we, we tend to talk to our kids in a way that doesn't facilitate. them growing and learning and, and understanding what's going on in their own brains. We just tell them what to do, do this, do that, go here, go there, sit down. Um, whereas, you know, especially kids who are a little more complex or, uh, have some defiance issues, um, in their behaviors, telling them what to do is the fastest way to shut down.
Yeah. Um, and, and so our kids really need us to. You know, collaborate with them and be curious about what, what they need in that moment, not just our need to hurry up or I need to not make a mess or I need to, whatever, because a lot of our parenting is stuff that we're saying either for our own convenience, right?
It's a mess. I'm busy. Like I can't take time to do this. You're talking too much. You're making me crazy. You know, um, that's all our convenience. You know, that's none of that is something that's going to help our kid grow. Holy fuck. That's a big truth bomb. That just went off. Yeah, it's, it's so true. I mean, I'm not a parent, so I'm not going to pretend like I know what it's like to be a parent, but that's, I'm, I'm, I'm taking a second to process this because that's so true.
This typical parenting, parenting advice is to make the lives easier for the parent. But the, the wild thing about it is it's not making it easier for the parent because that child is becoming more defiant because their needs are not actually being met. They're not being heard. And what do you do when that happens?
I know for myself, I double down. Yeah. You have a meltdown, you have a temper tantrum, you, you know, depending on the age, you know, any number of not nice activities start to happen. And, and we take away our kids autonomy and we don't slow down to ask ourselves, why, why are we saying no? Why are we telling them this order?
Right? Is it because it's convenient for us? Is it because that's what our parent did? Is that, is it because we always do it that way? Right. Can I have breakfast for dinner? No. Why? Because that's not right. Why? Like, why? Why? Why is it going to hurt to have breakfast for dinner? Is it? No, probably not, you know, we don't stop to ask ourselves, like, why are we making the decisions we're making?
And then why are we mad at our kids? When they don't understand those decisions. That makes, that makes complete sense. And I feel like a lot of times, we set our kids to a standard that we can't even rise to ourselves. And how the fuck are we going to, uh, like, make a tiny person with, an underdeveloped brain do what we can't even do.
Absolutely. I can't sit in a classroom for eight hours a day, five days a week. That's why I have my own business. Right. Because I can't do it. Right. And I couldn't do it back then either. Yeah. Right. So when I had ADHD and it was undiagnosed and then even after it was diagnosed, it was untreated for a long time.
Right. You know, I did all of the typical school avoidance behaviors. I skipped school. I pretended I was sick. I, You know, and eventually dropped out because I could not do that. Yet we expect our little kids to be able to regulate themselves enough to do that. Kids can't learn if they're spending all day just trying to regulate enough to not get in trouble.
It's so true. And then when they come home and feel like maybe they can unmask a little bit or just, you know, let it out and then the behaviors happen at home. And then therefore typical parenting advice, you're being a bad kid. You need to be quieter X, Y, Z. And the kids probably feeling like, well, where the fuck am I going to let it out?
Absolutely. I know. Um, you know, my kids, when they, when they were good, when they were younger and I would get these reports from their teachers that. They were so well behaved, and I would be like, I must be a bad parent because the minute they come home, they're melting down, they're defiant, they won't listen, you know, and everybody kept saying to me, well, you're their safe place.
And I was like, fuck that, like, no, like, this is not, I mean, yes, ultimately, yes. Yeah. But back then I didn't, I didn't know that. All I thought was they can control it at school, therefore. I must be doing something wrong. So you, you internalized it. Did you ever think if they can control it at school, they must be able to control it at home and they're choosing not to did that thought?
Yes. Yeah. Okay. They're either they're choosing to, or I'm not. I'm not inspiring it. I'm not punishing it enough. I'm not disciplining them and not like there's something that the school is able to do that. I'm not to get them to behave right when the truth is, is that as they got older, it became more difficult for them to mask in school.
And so difficulties, you know, did eventually arise. Um, but one of the main reasons I do what I do is because I had no idea how to help my kids. Like I didn't. I, they had wildly differing presentations of ADHD. I have a boy and a girl, one has an attentive, one has combined, um, and they had no resources. And I just felt, I spent pretty much their entire middle and high school living in fear of what was coming next and not spending the time I wanted to connecting with my kids.
Man. So, really, you're doing what you do because you don't want other parents to feel hopeless the same way that you did. 100%. I don't want parents to walk around feeling this guilt and this shame over their perception that they're being a bad parent or that they've broken their family somehow. Or, you know, parents generally want to be good parents.
They want to connect with their kids, just like kids want to be good kids. Your kid does not misbehave to give you a hard time. Your kid is misbehaving because they are having a hard time. Ooh, say that one more time. Cause that was, that's so important. Your kid is not behaving poorly or misbehaving to give you a hard time.
They're misbehaving because they're having a hard time. And we might not know what it is. And that's where the curiosity comes in. We might not know if, if your child is melting down, is it because they're hungry? Is it because they've been awake too long and they're tired? Is it because they're having a sensory issue?
For me, I had meltdowns and had to tear the tag off of the back of every single shirt 50. Yep. Right. Drove my mother. insane, right? Why did you leave the tags on? Because now I don't know what size it is for your sister, right? I'm like, it's whatever size it is that fits because I couldn't stand that and it would cause a meltdown.
So you really have to, as a parent, like a behavior is there for a reason. And instead of just trying to address the behavior, you really need to be curious about the reason. And you can't always fix the reason. I'm not going to tell you You know, your kid isn't sometimes melting down and you're going to always know the reason or there's even going to always be a reason, like your child may not know the reason.
They don't have that communication and many parents don't know or don't remember that our kids with ADHD are on average 30 percent behind. their neurotypical peers in terms of emotional regulation, any kind of executive functioning, um, you know, in their developmental, their brains, 30 percent. So when you're comparing your kid, first of all, understand that your kid is also comparing themself, right?
Yeah. Your kid knows when there's something different, that your kid knows when they're in third grade and they're not able to do something their other third grade friends are able to do. Yeah. Yeah. We got to not compare to each other. We got to not compare our kids in terms of how old they are or what grade they're in, but where they are developmentally.
Thank you for bringing up that they are like 30 percent behind. I remember reading that. I can't remember if it was the how to ADHD book by Jessica McCabe. I remember reading that and totally, my brain totally didn't hang on to that. Um, that fact. And I mean, that's huge when you think of it. Yeah. I mean, in, in grade school, and when you're looking around thinking, Why am I not doing what, you know, what Peter or Paul or Jessica is able to do?
Yeah, so, so, when your child is 15, right? Their emotional regulation is about the age of 11 or 12. Oh, my gosh. So, so, or their, their time management skills. Yeah. Or, you know, and, and not that every ADHD kid has exactly the same, Right. You know, struggles. But where they struggle, you know, they're about three to five years behind their peers.
As they go through school, right? That really makes you look back on like little you and think, wow, I know why I struggled so hard. It's making me look back on little me. I'm thinking of a time where I had a complete meltdown and I ran out of the class and I slammed the door and so much embarrassment after not like, and I did not know I had ADHD.
I did not know I was autistic. I had no idea, but I remember that embarrassment. I remember the kids talking about it for a long time after. You had a meltdown in fourth grade and I. And I remember like swiping stuff off the, off the teacher's desk and then running away and being, and I had no idea why I did that.
Like, like, and I knew like, and, and I think people in general, I was going to say parents, but I think people in general think that people with ADHD, kids and adults do or don't do things on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it's like, I didn't actively make a decision to swipe those things at the teacher's desk.
And as soon as I had a second to think about it, I was like, horrified. Yes. But nobody saw that. What they saw was me being defiant and therefore, you know, I got after school detention or whatever, you know, whatever, instead of trying to figure out what actually happened that caused the meltdown. Right.
Yeah. Um, and, and so, and that's, you know, I did it to my kids, you know, because I didn't, I didn't, I still didn't fully understand. And I was aware of ADHD at that point. I just didn't fully grasp how it. Really played into their development and the expectations that I held of them. I had a, uh, uh, caseworker say to me once about one of my kids, like, you wouldn't expect this child to get up and walk if her leg was broken, would you?
And I was like, no, of course not. Duh. Like what kind of question is that? Yeah. You know? And she, she was like, why are you expecting her to behave with an emotional maturity that she does not yet have? Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah, that, you know, that was pretty much my response. And, you know, it was then, it was pretty much then that I was able to salvage a little bit.
So it was really late in the game for my kids growing up. Um, and I was able to, with my younger one, at least shift my parenting a little bit into a more collaborative and curious, um, you know, instead of telling what to do. I'm, I'm. Asking her what suggestions she could think of to do like what, what might happen, what, what would it look like if this happened?
What would it look like if that happened? Um, instead of, you know, I think you should do it this way, or I think you should do it that way, which, you know, unsolicited advice is just criticism, right? Just criticism. And that's what she hears. Right? That's what I hear when people tell me stuff that I didn't ask for.
It's so true. I'm trying to, I, I guess I never really pinpointed why it pisses me off so much when somebody gives me an opinion that I'm not asking for. Um, my thought was always like, you are not experiencing what I'm experiencing, so who the fuck are you to give me advice? But, I guess that also comes back to, it feels like criticism.
I mean, and it is absolutely true. Like, nobody should be offering advice when, if they don't know a situation and don't, haven't been in your shoes or your perspective. Um, so both, you know, it's kind of both can be true, but yeah, I mean, if somebody randomly tells you, you know, Oh, I think, you know, your website colors are horrible.
Eat shit is my first thought. Eat shit, I picked them!
That's exactly it. Like, if you ask somebody on the other hand, like, what do you think of the colors of my website? Yeah. And they then said, you know, they're really just, There's something not popping. And I, I have no, I haven't looked at your website in the last couple of days, so I have no memory of not criticizing your website.
But like, if, if there was an actual like thing that you asked for, that's different and you don't feel attacked. But when people just, and it's the same for kids, when we're just like, you're doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong. You know, I grew up and full heartedly, 100 percent believed with everything in me that I could do nothing more than parent my kids.
I was incapable of going to school, of holding a job. I was lazy. I was incompetent. And I believed that fully because I was dropped to lower classes. I couldn't, I couldn't focus. I couldn't stay in school and I eventually dropped out. And so I, you know, I became a mom at 17. Oh wow. I didn't realize you were that young when you first became a mom.
16 when I got pregnant. Yeah. Wow. Okay. 16 when I got pregnant. 17 when I had my first. Um, and, and I spent literally the next 20 years just being a mom. I didn't dream of anything else, nothing. Yeah. Because all I could dream about was getting through the day, getting through the week, getting through the school year, getting through the summer, getting through the break, you know?
And then when my kids did finally move out, I had no idea what I was going to do because I didn't, all I, all I thought I was good at. Was being a mom and I wasn't sure I was even good at that.
When you say like, I couldn't think of anything other than just, just being a mom. Do you feel like that just comes from this patriarchal fucking world that we live in? That does not, um, like value all that moms do. Cause like, there's like a statistic that like, I can't remember if it was like being a stay at home mom or being a parent or something is like the equivalent of 2.
5 full time jobs. So whenever someone says like, just a parent, I'm like, you mean a parent? Because that's really, really fucking hard. That's the reason why I'm not one right now. 100%. 100%. And I don't downplay at all. Oh, I know you don't. Um, you know, what that it, what that was. Yeah. I meant just not in the sense of that, that wasn't.
An important and huge job. Yeah. It is still, you know, yeah. My kids are still my kids. Yeah. They still need support. Um, but it was the idea that had been instilled in me somewhere through the way that that was the only thing that I could do or was good at. Mm-Hmm. You know, I'm not good at math. I'm not good at being on time.
I'm not keeping my mouth shut. I'm not good at it. Yeah. And so I, I really, really believed it. Um, and, and that's one of the messages I'm trying to tell parents, is if you don't want your kids to grow up feeling broken, don't make them feel broken. Don't teach them that they need to be fixed. Teach them that the world needs to accommodate them.
Is it challenging when you're working with parents and you're, you're coaching on these things, you're teaching these things, but they haven't even had this modeled for themselves, so they're, I mean, they A lot of times when we learn things, we relate it back to something that we knew before, but I'm assuming that a lot of the parents that you're, that you're coaching also did not have those accommodations and don't even have a, I'm trying to think of like, of the word of like an anchor, but that perspective, there's a, there's a word and I can't think of it right now.
If I think of it, I'm going to just blurt it out no matter what we're talking about. But, um, do you find that it is challenging to coach on that when they don't have that experience to pull from themselves? Yes. Yes. Well, yes and no. Um, so sometimes the parent is very aware of what they missed out and they're coming to me kind of in a, I don't want to fuck up my kid.
Help me make sure that doesn't happen. And so they're on board real quick and real easy. Okay. Um, and then there's parents who are more like I sucked it up or I didn't have that problem. Um, so. , I, you know, neurotypical parents perhaps. Mm-Hmm. . Um, although I will say I have precious few parents that I believe are actually a typical a hundred percent
Yeah. Um, but neurotypical parents, uh, do have a difficult time in general understanding all the things that people have trouble understanding about A DHD, why the kid can't just do it. Yeah. Why the kid can't. I recently wrote a blog about, um, why can't a kid do, why can't I get my kid to do important things like brush their teeth, right?
When I tell them they're important, they say they know they're important. And I said, your kid doesn't care about important. ADHD people care about interested and urgent. That's it. So, you know, you could tell your kid it's important. They could tell you it's important. They could 500 word essay about the importance of brushing your teeth.
It doesn't mean they're going to do it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So like, and that, and that baffles people, right? That like somebody who doesn't understand that neurotypical experience, like I see the confusion on their face. Like what? Yeah. It's the same confusion people have. So I have a fantasia, which means you, I can't see any images in my, in my head when I close my eyes, I can't picture anything.
And there's been people that when I tell them that for the first time, they're like, Whoa, wait a minute. You don't see pictures in your head. And I'm like, no. And they're like, ever? You know, it's like the sense of complete astonishment on somebody's face. Right. It's the same kind of thing. They're like, but why?
And I'm like, because that's the way our brains are wired. Yeah. That's. You know, and it's less important to sit here and ponder the why than it is to figure out how to get both of your needs met. Because ultimately, you still need to get out the door on time. You still need the house to be cleaned at least once in a while.
Like, you still need things to get done. But when you're collaborative, you can find ways to get your need and your child's need met. At the same time, that was that flows beautifully into what I was going to ask next, which is you have parents who have a lot of them have ADHD. So therefore they're struggling with a lot of the same things.
And. I know for myself, it is very hard to be curious about anything when I am feeling dysregulated. How do you work with parents who are feeling like, I want to be very curious cat, but right now I can't fucking manage just breathing. So how am I going to be curious with my child? Like, what do you say to those parents?
Cause I know there's a lot of them listening right now. Absolutely. So, I mean, first of all, be, be kind to yourself, right? No one is going to be curious all of the time. Um, no one's gonna, it's, it's not a perfect model. Yeah. Um, and you know, it's okay to take breaks. It's okay to say, you know, mommy needs five minutes, right?
Daddy needs 10 minutes. Like I, I, I just. You know, I will answer your question and first I'm going to take a break. Yeah. You know, or, you know,
ADHD kids, some ADHD kids will ask a million questions. They'll also climb on every piece of furniture. Like I have some parents whose kids are just nonstop and that's exactly where they feel. Yeah. They're like, I don't know how to, how to take a moment and be curious when it's nonstop. Yeah. Right. And so there's a couple of things.
First of all. You have to pour into your own cup first, as a parent. It goes against everything in us. It really does. Kids come first, kids come first. After you have a full cup. Right? Because you cannot give from an empty cup. You just can't do it. You can't be patient. You can't be kind. You can't be curious.
when you're resentful and irritated and angry. So we do a lot of practice the pause. Look, don't answer right away. Yes, no, or otherwise. Like just pause, right? Just pause. And you know, again, it's okay to take a break. It's okay to say, you know, I don't have that answer right now. Let me, let me think about it for a few minutes now.
It's not going to get there easily. Right. Like that sounds easy, but what if your kid says, I want to know now or follows you to the bathroom and bangs on the door, right, like, you have to find something that's going to allow you those few moments to regulate, whether it's. locking yourself in the bathroom and putting on headphones and listening to Metallica for, you know, a minute and a half so that you're not listening to whatever it takes.
If you have support, you know, if you have a co parent, a partner, um, you know, a mother who will help anything where you can step away a little bit, um, you know, especially if you are a full time parent, if you're hoping that every Um, you know, you absolutely need to find time to get away. You need to find, and you need to find time every single day to breathe, right?
I don't care what it looks like. I don't care if you step out on the, on the porch for two minutes and put your face in the sun and just breathe for two minutes. Like you have to take those few minutes because if you can't regulate, you can't help your kids regulate. It's so true. It's so true. I am thinking of a few moms that I had coached and they'd feel bad about their kids being on electronics, although that was like the only time that You know, life was quiet.
I'm just like, you know what, those electronics are not going to be as harmful to them as a parent who is so dysregulated that you're not able to show up in the way that you want to, who gives a fuck if they're their iPad or whatever for an hour. Who cares? Oh my gosh. When my, when my kids were little, I felt guilty because, so it wasn't video games at the time it was, um, TV, just screen time in order to, you know, take a shower or, or, you know.
I have five minutes to think, make a phone call. I would sit the kid in front of a, in front of the screen and I've got the same thing. Don't sit your kids in front of the screen. I'm like, look, your number one priority is regulation and safety, right? You both have to be safe and you both have to be regulated.
Nothing else can happen until those things are happening. Yeah. And so if that, use what you have to, if you have to bribe your kid, bribe your kid. Like, yeah, like who, who cares in the long run? Right. Like, I'm not saying let your kid, you know, rule your house dictated orders all the time. Right. Like, you know, you need five minutes and, and they want a cookie, give them a cookie.
Yeah. You know, it's not going to, it's the long run. It's going to be much better if you're both mom and you have a cookie. Then if you don't eat before dinner. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. Also, side note, I just feel like maybe we should all eat dessert before dinner because it makes me really mad when I eat my dinner and then I don't have room for a cookie or dessert.
So that's just another thing. If anyone wants to vote for me for president, write me into the ballot. 2024 I, I will, um, Jamie for president for sure.
Everybody, we're eating dessert before dinner. Um, we are telling our boss to fuck off. No, I mean, you need a paycheck, so make sure that you have your business running before you tell your boss to fuck off. But anyway, um, You know what? That's another thing I worked on with parents is, you know, for their kids before they get 100, 000 into debt.
So working with kids while they're in high school to kind of figure out, do you know, 70 percent of today's workers in America do not use the degree that they went to school for? That's disgusting, Kat. 70%? 70%. And that's from, like, the statistics of labor or whatever. Like, 70%. That is disgusting. We start talking to our kids when they're, before kindergarten, about what they're going to be when they grow up, right?
Oh, she's going to be a doctor. She's going to be a nurse. He's going to be a dentist, right? And that's what they hear all growing up. So by the time they get to college, By the time they get to high school, they believe they have to go to college. They often choose majors based on what they think is going to make the most money, right?
Or what they're currently interested in, which we know as ADHDers, doesn't often last. And most importantly, they don't take into account how their brain works and what will be successful for them, right? But college is not the only answer. It's a great choice for those who want to go that path, but it's certainly not the only way.
And so I do work with parents to, to a break them of the habit that it has to be college. Like if a parent comes to me and is like, I need you to help me get my kid on board with going to college. My first question is what is the goal? Is the goal a happy and healthy life or a college degree? Right? No kidding.
Because they are not. Like you do not have to have one for the other. Another thing I, and I talked to, I have an amazing friend and she's a registered dietitian. She also has a master's degree in healthcare, like I do. And, you know, I was in working in the field for just shy of a year before I was like, I cannot stand to see people not getting the treatment that they really deserve.
And the other thing we don't talk about with, with kids is like, yes, you have this interest, but what do you want your daily life to look like? For me, it is way too overstimulating to have back to back patients for eight to 10 hours a day. It's too much. I have, I got compassion fatigue. I'm a very compassionate person, but when you're not able to meet your own needs, because in healthcare, you don't get a lot of breaks.
You are, you know, Especially as an OT and in a skilled nursing facility, you have a productivity standard, which means any minute that you're not treating is considered unproductive time. So therefore go back to back, to back, to back, to back. They're not getting the best care because I'm not in the best headspace and forget it.
Whoever I'm seeing after 6 PM, they were not getting the best care. And it is hard to even say out loud, but it's the truth. And. This is the stuff that we need to talk to our kids about, of like, yes, you have this interest, but what do you want your daily life to look like? Yeah, what, so, so when I, when I do an actual, like, career discovery with a, with a high schooler, we do all the traditional stuff, like, you know, career assessments and personality kind of thing, but we also talk about what kind of accommodations do you think you're going to need?
What kind of, you know, what kind of learning environment do you like? What kind of Um, you know, do you like to work by yourself or do you like to work in teams? Do you like to, you know, do you like to follow a plan or do you like to wing it? You know, like, and all of these kinds of things so that, you know, they won't make it.
Well, they hopefully won't make a choice that, that, you know, I, one of my kids has a hundred thousand dollars of debt. For degree, he uses it, but not, you know, not the way it could have been used because it didn't work, you know? Yeah. The field he went into didn't work for his Yeah. His brain. Um, and so, you know, it's a struggle and there's a lot of things that, you know, we all wish we knew before, right?
Yes. He wish he didn't, could do that program. I wish I didn't. Do, you know? Mm-Hmm. . And so my one, my goal with the career discovery is really to kind of like, please don't get your kid, especially right now. Like, please don't get your kid into a huge amount of student debt, unless that's really the way that's going to be effective for them, like, you know, and if you're, you know, maybe go to community college before you invest in a university or like, so we, and we try to talk about all different options.
There's Job Corps, there's, you know, additional kinds of training, there's, you know, all sorts of stuff. And, um, And why, again, our kids at 17 or 18 with ADHD are really only about 15 with their executive functioning. And we're asking them to make decisions and sign documents that saddle them with loans that they can never get out of.
You know, it takes an act of God to get a student loan dispersed. I managed to get mine dispersed after 20 years and only because the school I went to was found to be fraudulent. So everybody who still had outstanding student loans got them. Had I paid it off like I should have, I would have just been out the money, but it was on deferment for a million years because I'm, I was so poor I couldn't pay it.
Getting rid of that is it, you know, and it follows you everywhere. And we don't teach our kids, we rarely teach our kids in high school before they get to college how to budget, how to, how to, how to understand a loan document. How many parents listening signed loan documents for their kids? Uh huh. Like because your kid's not gonna, your 17 year old is not going to read a 30 page document With fine print about what happens if they default on their loan.
And their ADHD parent sure as fuck isn't either. Right. Right. So like, you know, and it gets worse. And we don't teach our kids things like emotional regulation. Yeah. Or, you know, what kind of accommodations can you get in school? What kind of accommodations can you get in college or at work? Yeah. Like, people don't, I have a full grown adults that have no idea what they have the right to ask for.
100%. I see it all the time. Like, and, and even me, I learned just this weekend that one of the accommodations you can request in colleges is early registration so that you get, you get all the classes that you want. Shut the front door, that's a thing. I had no idea, yeah. Um, I hadn't, I had no idea. I was always the person that would wait until the last minute.
I will not forget that I had an advisor. He was amazing. And he was like, okay, we'll take these classes. I did not pay in time. I had the money in my account, did not pay in time. And then therefore all the classes got dropped. I had to go in there and be like, I didn't pay in time. Like we have to figure out a new schedule.
Um, And this is like the reality of living with ADHD. One of the fuck that was, I forgot about that one cat. Well, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, you forget, forget to do it. You don't do it in time. And, and if you get early selection. So if you're, if you don't get up or function before 10 o'clock, you can make sure you're only getting classes at 10 o'clock.
Or it's, you know, if there's a specific teacher you feel works well with, like, so you get those. I had no idea you could ask that. I thought I was studying for a class I'm taking. It was in the reading material. And I was like, Wait a minute. Oh my gosh. This is, that is a wild. I'm trying to think of the accommodations that I know of.
Obviously you can, you can get a note taker. Um, I'm trying to think of, honestly, I'm trying to think of accommodations outside of that because I didn't know I had ADHD until the end of my master's degree. So I wasn't getting any accommodations. You can get things you can get all the standard things you can get in like regular in like elementary or high school so you can get like extended extended time on tasks.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Great. Things like that. Extended time on tests is actually not one that is usually helpful for ADHD kids. Nope, I got extra time on my NBCOT exam, and I don't think I even used the full The first time when I over fucking thought everything and I ended up failing it, um, I got extra time and I used a lot of it.
But the second time when I finally passed it, I did not use the extra time. Yeah, usually that's, kids, they don't need more time to be bored, right? Mm hmm. Like, um, so you can get those things, you can get, um, A quiet place to take your exam. Yeah, you can get quiet places. You can get like an in person note taker or you can get permission to record.
Yep. Uh, sometimes you can get like the teacher's notes, like the, the syllabus notes for the day, like they'll give them to you. So there's things like that. Um, I believe you can, there are certain requirements for certain classes that you might be able to opt in or out of based on, you have to be, you know, you have to be able to show that there's a reason you need whatever accommodation, but, um, but that early, early registration.
So usually it's like upperclassmen get to go first, right? So, so freshmen going in usually get like the last choices, you know, and then that sets them up for a crappy first year. Which doesn't give them any confidence in finishing. Dropout rate for ADHD kids is huge, huge, huge. Yep. You know, because they, they get either they've had parents doing everything for them all the way through high school.
And then now they're like, I, I don't know how to wind, wash my dishes. I don't, where's my key. I don't, where's the laundry mat. Like who's, what, how do I make Yeah. We don't have parents at all. We're just like, Yep. Yep. Or we helicopter them, you know, and, you know, and, and kids, kids with ADHD need scaffolding.
Like that's what we need. We need that support structure. So in that extent, you know, if you're a parent of an ADHD kid, you're not done at 18. I'm sorry. You're not done at 18. You're not done at 21. You know, my kids are 29 and 32. I hope I'm saying that correctly. Yeah. Yep. You know, 29 and 32, and they're much more independent, um, you know, but, you know, they still have times where they need a little extra support, you know, and, and I didn't, I didn't expect that.
I expected kids, you know, they're going to, you know, especially when I was in the worst of it, like the, I felt like the worst parent, I was like, well, 18 and, you know, They'll be gone. No, no, no, not so much. No, not so much. Especially in this economy. There's so many kids that are just, uh, or, you know, kids, you that are staying home a lot later because rent is extraordinary, like extraordinarily high.
Ridiculous. Wild. Yeah. And, and I don't know about you, but right where I am right now, we're one of the worst places in the country with rent right now. Cause you're in New York, right? Yes. And I'm in Western New York, so I'm not near the city, but it's still, it's wild. Awful. Yeah. So yeah. So kids are staying at home longer and need to like, they don't like financially, it's ridiculous to try to, especially if they have student loans on top.
Yeah. No shit. No shit. And you make a really good point of like parenting doesn't stop at 18. And I feel like we all need to just like normalize the fact that when you have ADHD, you might just always need extra support. Period. Absolutely. I, yeah. I, I could not get by if I, if I didn't have an incredibly supportive partner and a coach myself, I would have to be probably outsourcing a lot of the household stuff because there's no way I would be able to manage being a business owner and all of the household stuff and like anything else on top of it.
There's no fucking way. I still, so I, you know, I'm almost 50 and I, my partner stands outside and talks to me while I take a shower because otherwise I'm too fucking bored to do it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and like, it took me a long time to really recognize what my resistance was. And there's another thing, you gotta be curious, like your kid's not taking a shower.
Why? Does he hate the feel of the water? Is he bored? Is it the wrong time? Like, you know, for me, it was it bored. Daylights out of me. And so I just didn't do it. That's so interesting. But I didn't like, that wasn't my thought process. Of course. It wasn't until I really like, I would just do this thing where I'd be like, I'd take a shower and I'd be like, Oh, that's amazing.
I'm going to take showers more often. And then every day for like five days, I'd be You know, that shower is going to feel awesome tomorrow.
Tomorrow feels like a really good day for that amazing shower. I know. And I'd be like, why do you do this to yourself? Yeah. Like you love how you feel in the shower. Yeah. That's so interesting. So for you, it's not the executive dysfunction of like, okay, like I need to figure out what I'm going to wear after now that you're like, I'm just fucking bored in the shower.
It was really that I was bored. Like, that's so interesting. So I'm just, I'm curious, um, with you, have you ever tried like music or podcasts or anything while you were in the shower or did you, I hadn't, you hadn't, okay. I was curious if that would be something that would, that is what's something I suggest to other people now, but we've kind of developed a habit of, honestly, that's fantastic.
I have conversations while I'm taking a shower, right? Right. At this point, like, it's just going to feel weird for both of you to get in sometimes. You know. Oh my, what kind of dogs do you have, Kat? I have Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. They are the most adorable. I can't stop. Those are my babies. So I have a five year old and a two year old.
And, uh, the five year old, or the two year old likes to, likes to try to get in the bathtub. Yeah, yeah. While I'm showering. Yeah, my lab likes to do that sometimes to dig for cavaliers here, right? Like, not right now, not right now. Um, I'm curious why you named your business all belong because that's A really cool, interesting name, and does not have ADHD in the name, which obviously doesn't have to, it's your business, um, and not that you need to have ADHD, you know what I mean, I'm over explaining right now, but, I'll be long, tell me about that.
So, so this is actually a really cool, kind of, serendipity, like, Thing that happened. So prior to deciding, um, I was going to become an ADHD coach. I worked in, um, the nonprofit sector in, um, mostly in LGBTQ rights and advocacy. Um, so I, I taught safe zone trainings and things like that. Um, and now I'm still sitting, I still serve on several boards, um, about that I help with diversity.
So I talk about diversity from both, uh, Queer angles and, uh, neurodiverse angles. And so, and so it was really important to me when I started setting up my business that I be as inclusive as possible. If you look at my website. You know, it, I try to reflect as much of the community as I possibly can. Um, you know, any colors, sizes, religions, you know, shapes, whatever.
Um, nobody ever should feel like they don't belong somewhere. Um, and so when I started searching for my name, I have an aunt who, um, I'm very close with. She's, she is outside of my partner's, probably the, the closest single biggest support I've had, um, my life in general, but also in my business, she had purchased the website, all belong.
com years and years and years ago. Um, because she's a computer website designer and she kind of bought a bunch of names that she thought she would do something with someday that were interesting, good, URLs, right? Um, and so she offered to sell me the Alderlan domain. Not sell me, she gave it to me. She offered to give it to me.
Um, the all belong domain and it was, and it was like, my all belong was available like everywhere. And so it just, you know, even after I had the site, I wasn't sure I was going to name the business all belong coaching. Um, but the more I said it, the more I liked it. And uh, you know, I just, I, it was a way to marry my passion for diversity, uh, with my coaching.
So, yeah. I'm obsessed with that. That is so freaking cool. And now knowing you, like, that is, that just, like, fits so perfectly. Like, that is just so perfect. That's what I've been hearing. Like, that's, it's very, it feels very me. People seem to respond to it very nicely. I will say, um, it is not a requirement, but a vast requirement.
number of my clients are in the queer community. Um, that's probably because that's where I have the most contacts. Yeah. Because I've worked in that community for about 10 years. Yeah. Before I got horrifically fired, for which I'm still suing, so. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's that there's just so many queer people in the ADHD world, or maybe it's like queer people, we just like attract more queer people, but there are some people where you, you wouldn't know it looking at them, because obviously you don't know until you talk to somebody, but then after getting, getting to talk to them, it's just like, Oh, you are too?
Oh my gosh, I cannot tell you how many, how many times, like, I gravitate towards people, and then I'm like, do you have ADHD? Oh, I do the same thing, and I, you know, I don't even understand social cues, so, and I also don't see it as, like, a bad thing, sometimes I forget that there's still a stigma around ADHD, so I'm like, oh, like, do you have ADHD, like, you seem like, and like, sometimes they're like, oh, no, I'm like, Jamie, it's funny you say that, so, I was at Torrid, which is a clothing store, shopping, and I was at the register and the two tissues were One was ringing me up, one was ringing somebody and they were talking to each other.
Mm-Hmm. . I don't remember exactly what the one that was ringing me up said, but I looked at her and I said, do you have a DHD? Mm-Hmm . And she looked at me and she goes, is it that obvious? Oh. And I, and I said, I said, I'm an A DHD coach, so like take That was grain of salt. Yeah. Like, I don't want to think that like everybody is looking at you.
Yeah. Um, and she goes, oh, that's so validating because people are always telling me I couldn't have a DHD. And I was like, well, I mean, just from what you described, I mean, I'm not a doctor, but like, right, right. It sounded like ADHD to me. And then when I left, my partner was like, you shouldn't call people out like that.
And I was like, I shouldn't. Right. Not everybody wants their ADHD. No. And I was like, Oh, yeah. I like, it doesn't occur to me. Same, same. It's just like, I just think so many Asians are like the coolest people on the planet. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, like you're one of us. You seem great. Like you seem like I could have a conversation with you and not get fucking bored.
Like a lot of people out here. Yeah, I almost see it like as a badge of honor now. So yeah, I forget that. Not everybody feels that way, or not everybody feels that way yet. Right. You know, they're not in the same spot in their, in their journey. I got a lot of flack. I wrote a journal, a blog entry about ADHD, um, being a superpower and the controversy there.
Right. Is it a, is it a superpower? Isn't it? And how vehemently people who don't want it known as a superpower came at me. And I was like, look, if it empowers me to say it's a superpower for me, why do you care? But like, if it empowers a child to see it in a different way, like, I acknowledge all of the struggles that come with having ADHD.
I was just going to say, you're not one of these people that is just going to make a blanket statement of like, ADHD is a superpower, period. Like, we just spent, what, an hour probably talking about all the different challenges that we have as ADHDers. But, there are really cool things about us too.
Absolutely. And, like, you, even super power, even superheroes, right, have their kryptonite. Mm. It's a good point. It's a good point. Yeah. Like, why not? Superheroes can have ADHD too. Yeah. Yeah. And they probably do. And you know what? They probably do. Yeah. And they probably do. Exactly. Um, okay. So now that I know the idea of like where all belong came from, a lot of your branding has sunflowers on it.
Is there a cool story that comes with the sunflowers too? So, uh, it's not so much as cool story, but it is, it was specific. Um, I love sunflowers. I've always loved sunflowers. Um, and so I opened this business, uh, right after coming out of a, uh, a very dark period for me, I was depressed and had some trauma.
Um, and the thing about sunflowers that gets me is that no matter what is going on, they face the sun.
Yeah. And so, you know, that's my. No matter what's going on, no matter where you're planted, you can stand tall and you can face the sun. That's such an empowering. That's such an empowering thought, and now I'm never gonna look at sunflowers the same. I'm gonna think of you every single time, Kat. So I'm really happy that we had this conversation because I'm gonna think of you every single time that I see a sunflower.
Oh, that's so frickin cool! I'm just like, pondering this. This is so frickin cool. Um, it resonated because so many people have, have said, like, I love your branding, or I love the sunflower, like, so. Yeah. It's working, so I'm not gonna fix it. No, because it's not broken, just like our ADHD brains. That's right.
So, talk to me about, about your ADHD coaching. Do you do it one on one? Do you do it in groups? Do you do it in a cohort? Do you do it in a membership? Talk to me about your ADHD coaching. Yes. Period. Next question. Um, so, so, so, until now, I've been doing, um, Uh, purely one on one coaching, um, and virtual, um, I now have an office, so locally, which is in Rochester, New York, uh, so I can see people locally, um, and I'm in the middle of developing a couple of group programs, uh, sort of like cohort based.
Um, I also do a lot of cool things like free webinars. Um, which I have coming up on the 18th of this month for parents, it's called You Are Not a Failure. Um, it's called You Are Not a Failure, Traditional Parenting Advice is Failing You and Your ADHD Child, and I'm going to take them through, you know, the exact thing we talked about today, why it's not working, and give them a taste of what actually does work, which is that coaching, collaborative, curious approach.
so much. Um, and that's free. It's on July 18th. It's at noon, my time, Eastern, but it'll be recorded. So if you register, you will get the recording and my website is www. allbelong. com. Awesome. So I'm going to make sure that in the show notes that there is the website, but also the specific link for the webinar.
Cause our people have ADHD and I don't want you to have to, you know, click, you know, two things and you can just click one thing because I want you to be able to register for it. And sometimes going to different places just feels like too much. So I'm going to make sure that's in the show notes for everyone listening.
Yes. I have your back on ADHD is hard to find things like that. Totally free. No obligation. I'd love to see you. Anybody who, you know, anybody who just wants to know a little bit more, whether you have a kid or you just want to know more about relating to a kid, maybe you have a niece or a nephew or a godchild or a student that has ADHD, like, pick up a few things totally free, hang out with other cool people.
Yeah. And Kat! I mean, she's the coolest person you've ever met in your entire life. Is she not? I mean, listen to her. Thank you. You're so welcome. What is one thing that you want parents to know? If you could just say one thing to that, to that parent that is feeling the way that you felt raising your kids without support, what would you want them to know?
You're not fucking it up. You're not a failure. You are not alone. And there are resources. And I will help you find them. If it's not me, I will help you find them. So reach out. I love this. And I was going to ask, how do people find you? We touched on it a little bit. Talk or say your website one more time.
www. allbelong. com. I'm also all over the place on Instagram and stuff as a real chat with cat and that's cat with a K. I love this and my ADHD brain is definitely going to ask you for all of these links after we end the call because there's a hundred percent chance I'm not going to remember all them and I'm going to make sure they're all in the show notes.
So everybody listening, just go to the show notes and you're going to see, um, all the different ways to get in touch with Kat. Kat, thank you so much for being here. For this conversation. It really did! I'm like, holy shit! Uh, it's been an hour! It's been an hour! How did this happen? It feels like, like we just started like 10 minutes ago.
I knew I was gonna have like the best time chatting with you. I'm so excited. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this since I signed up for it. Well, I've been looking forward to this since you signed up for this. Um, uh, Kat, you are amazing. Thank you for all the work that you're doing in the, in the ADHD community, normalizing our struggles, normalizing our superpowers.
You are amazing. Never change. Thank you so much, Jamie. You're so welcome.
Are you a high achieving woman with ADHD looking for a coach or maybe an event coordinator looking for a wildly captivating speaker? Perfect. Go to outsmartadhd. co that's outsmartadhd. co to get in touch. And before I forget, would you mind taking a minute to share this podcast with someone you love? It would mean the world to me.
Thanks my friend until next time.