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Circling The Drain is a show about the current state of the music and radio businesses as well as culture in general!
Hosted by John E. Bozeman and Jay Harper along with Jim McCarthy as Co-Host/Executive Producer.
John has had a storied career in music and talk radio, most notably as the Executive Producer for the late and legendary Phil Valentine.
Jay also has has a long career in radio as Announcer, Play-by-Play, Voice and On-Camera Actor. He was also an Artist Rep for MCA records.
Jim McCarthy ALSO has had a tremendous career in radio since 1996 and has since brought his consulting/producing skillset to the podcast world.
Circling the Drain is produced by ItsYourShow.co
Unknown: I have never liked when
they when they'll have a talk
show host, bring on a sponsor as
a guest, because it just takes
away from all credibility, no
credibility whatsoever, none.
And especially if it's iffy, you
know. Yes, you know. And
sometimes it is, yes, you know.
And you're like, I can't believe
they're making me do this, yeah.
Hopefully the good always
outweighs the bad. Yes, you
know. And you get, you know, to
program your brands, and you get
to do the right thing all the
time. You don't, but if you get
there 90% of the time, or 95% of
the time, wow, that's a win. And
I've listened, you know, to
stuff that you've done or
whatever, and and go, oh yeah,
he's cringing. There's somebody
in the studio they do not want
to be talking.
Welcome to a podcast about music
and entertainment before it all
goes down the disposal. This is
circling the drain.
So for some reason, you guys
wanted me to kick this episode
off, so here we go. This is the
circling the drain podcast. I am
Jim McCarthy, across from me as
the man Johnny B Johnny Bozeman,
say hello, my friend. Hello, my
friend. How are you? And to my
left is always Mr.
JR, yes. James Patrick, happy to
have you kick us off here. It
does feel a little different,
though it does, but I like it,
yeah, yeah. We may have little
ways have to do this more often.
Perhaps we're just never again.
You know,
why should
introduce our guest? Yes. I
mean, you are such, you know, so
familiar with our honored guests
that we thought that it would be
appropriate for you
to lead things off. The
gentleman that we have today is
somebody I spent a considerable
amount of time with. What we
spent about two, three years
together, absolutely and at the
the the big powerhouse of 96
three, Jack FM here in
Nashville, Mr. Ron Allen, hey,
yes, sir.
I feel very special that you did
the intro and that that's
uncommon. Absolutely, about all
three of us, we are uncommon.
Well, I think I fall into the
little different category
myself. I think
we're good. And here's the thing
is that you know a lot of
people. You know, when you
listen to a podcast like this,
what is it that you're in for?
This episode, we talk a lot
about Nashville radio history,
and Jack FM is certainly an
indelible aspect, and part of
that history since 2005 it's
20 years now. Yeah, that is
impressive. 20 years. Yes, it's
one of the first adult hit
stations, really, in the nation,
one of the most successful adult
hits radio stations and has the
longevity. You know, it's just,
what do you know, we're still on
the air. Matter of fact, I just,
I just did the creating for a
billboard that says, still on
that go up tomorrow. So I think
some people are shocked by that.
I know we are.
Well, your billboards have been
the best of any radio station.
Yeah.
No, it's fun. We've had a good
time with those. And, you know,
it's not rocket science. We're
not trying to put up a big
message. People can't read that
in three seconds anyway. We're
just trying to have some fun and
be a little stupid.
Well, and you're and you're
promoting your radio station.
Imagine that absolutely,
you know. And I don't want to
knock the competition, but I see
some of their billboards, and,
you know, the logos this big,
yes, and then there's a bunch of
verbiage, and you just go, I
don't even know what I just
yeah, what the heck was that?
It's terrible.
And then there's some out there
that don't even do that.
They don't believe in marketing.
Yeah,
there's my advertising in our
station, but by golly, we're not
advertising ours.
We don't believe in branding.
Why would you do that? Does that
require spending money? Oh, hell
no. We don't do that here. No,
we don't have money.
Shareholders would not approve.
Yes, if we can't trade it out,
then
maybe some concert tickets.
Concert ticket. See free CDs
anymore.
You don't here's the download
code. Yeah, check out. When you
go to check out, put this code
in, a walk, a walk, a 98 FM.
But heck, the talent does. We
don't even get the tickets
anymore. It's all the sales
people get the tickets now, so
you don't even get that perk
anymore. Well, we
have a suite, you know, our
company has a suite at
Bridgestone, and they use it for
clients, you know. And then the
salesperson goes and hosts,
yeah. And I was like, Wouldn't
it be cool if the talent went
and hosted? That? Wouldn't that?
Wouldn't the client want to
spend time with the On Air
talent? You would think, maybe
the person going, can you give
me money? Can you give me money?
They're trying to enjoy a
concert. Jock. It just be like,
Hey, do you want a beer? Well,
it's
funny, when I worked at W, L, A,
C, never got invited to the
suite, and one night I got we
got in. Invited my wife at the
time, and I got invited by the
Tennessean. Their suite was
right across from WAC, and I
love because there was a
salesperson at the door as we're
walking up. And he goes, Oh,
what are you doing here? I'm
here to see the game. And he
shuts the door on
Well, you see where you are on
the whole
were far nicer. So I'm over
there and I'm waving at the
folks this fun night.
You know, it's it's true. And I
don't even know why I bring this
up, but I had a birthday last
week, and that's not the point
to this. Thank you so much. But
the company I work for, you
know, I a couple of people walk
by my door and say, Hey, it's
your birthday. Happy birthday.
There was no card, there was no
balloon, there was no cupcakes
in the break room. There was
none of that. The company that I
do a little side work for says,
Oh, by the way, we forgot to
give this to you, and it's the
entire staff of their office had
signed this card for me, and
there was a very nice gift
certificate to take my wife out
to dinner. And I was like, I
barely work for these people,
but they're not in radio, so I
think they like me more, and
they got me a brand new car,
right? I mean, we could talk
step up radio, yeah, but it was
just funny. The way radio works
and feels in the vibe today is
so much different than it is
than when we all started. Yes,
so different. Yeah, not a good
thing. How
quantify that statement?
You've worked like in Wichita
and Tulsa? Did you not?
I did. I was in Tulsa, Wichita
in Kansas City, before I came
here. And you know, I loved all
of those. I loved Wichita Tulsa.
I don't know that I love Kansas
City. No one Kansas City is
listening, right? I'm sorry, no,
but, you know, I loved, I loved
the vibe of both of those
cities. Yeah, you know, I think
Wichita is underrated. You know,
I really do. I really do. I
think that it has an inferiority
complex. Radio is good there,
yeah, it is. Radio in Tulsa is
very good, and so is a fun day.
It was fun. It was a great you
know, I started in Tulsa in the
late 80s, so, fairly small
company. And, you know, it was a
different world. People truly
believed in the product. That
was the foremost thing on
everybody's mind, that if we put
the very, very best product on
the air that we can, we're going
to invest in it. We're going to
invest in our people. And by
doing that, we're going to reap
the rewards of we're going to
have high sales and high
ratings. And what a novel
concept. Instead of, you know,
today, it's a little bit more
of, you know, we're going to
save ourselves to prosperity.
And I think we all would agree
that doesn't work. No, it does
not, no. So it's changed a lot,
and I wouldn't change anything
in my career. I wouldn't go back
and do it differently. I'm not
disappointed where I am today.
I'm super excited with the radio
stations and the people that I
work with. Do I miss those old
days and old times and old ways
of doing things? Oh, absolutely.
And unfortunately, I think that
we have much more change on the
horizon. I think as we get into,
you know, the conversations
about AI in the digital space
and and across, you know, market
programming, and there's going
to be more cost cutting, more
people are going to lose their
jobs. It's not going to be why
we all got into it. I'm hoping
that it's still compelling
enough that as people younger
have other options, that it
still is a viable format. Moving
forward, we'll see, you know, I
mean, I've just got on my
soapbox here, so sorry, guys.
No, you know, but there's a lot
going on out there, and I still
really believe in radio and what
we all do, and where we all came
from, and I just don't think
it's as I have a blast, but I
don't think it's as much fun for
the average person anymore. I
don't know if I was 1825, years
old, 30 years old, this is not
the career I would be. Well, I
mean, where are the training
grounds? There are none.
Exactly. Yeah. Oh, wait a
minute, a high school actually
has a program. Well,
broadcasting, there are
some Yeah.
Well, I even got invited to
speak to some college kids that
were that are coming through
broadcast, and I turned it down
because it was right after I was
let go, yeah, and I thought I
have nothing positive to tell
these kids, you know, well, this
is your future.
Something else. There's always
going to be the need for
content. I think there are.
There are just different
platforms, yes, that are at our
disposal, aside from just, you
know, putting a tower up,
and I think challenge will
always rise to the top, and you
know, there will be success in
what we've all done. It may be
in a completely different form.
You may be doing something on
seven radio stations instead of
one radio stations. And I hate
that personally, because I don't
think that. Were paying enough
attention to the one that you
should be paying attention to,
amen, but that's probably the
the business model that we're
dealing with now, unfortunately.
But you know, we had a 17 year
old intern come in from high
school who loves radio and would
love to do something in the
industry. And I was very
encouraging. I You don't get to
see those people very often. And
so I think of them as unicorns,
and I want to, I want to keep
them excited about what I've
done my entire life. We just had
a guy come in last week that
just graduated. He was 22 he
would love to get into the
industry. And that was the
challenge when you have that
conversation, when he says to
you, Well, how do I do it? And
you go, Well, when I started,
you came in and you did
weekends, and you did
overnights, and then you did
seven to midnight, and you got
better, and you crafted your
craft, and you got to do mid
days, and then you got to do
afternoons. And there was this
process, and you got to go to a
bigger market, and you got to
make more money, and you had
goals and and challenges and
things that you could see in the
future that were going to make
this all worth it. The struggle
was, there was a goal at the end
that made you think, I can
actually make my car payment at
some day. There's not that now.
There's you can't come.
Can you fog a mirror? That's the
requirement.
Can you fog a mirror? Or, you
know, and I would, I would take
this a step farther. It's just
not talent, it's sales staffs
the same way. Yeah, it's either,
can you fog a mirror, or,
unfortunately, they all look
like us, and we're all aging
out. You know, what's the
industry look like in 10 years,
we have only five sales people
in our building. Oh, my God,
really, only five at this point.
Four of them look like us. So
Mark is still there. Mark still
there. Is he still there? He's
still there. And he's one of the
leading billers in the company.
And there is that, that ability,
that he has groomed and grown
and has been successful. Well,
he's at retirement age. So what
happens when he retires? Who do
you replace him with? So I think
from the On Air and content side
of it, we this is our world. We
worry about that. I step back
and worry about even the sales
aspect of it. I mean, I get
there are other sales jobs. You
can sell something else and
transition to radio, but you,
but is that where your, you
know, life leads you?
You were on my podcast, you
know, earlier this last, last
year, and you know, that's the
one thing is, I don't want to
come off like I'm hammering
radio. No, not at all. I love
radio, yeah, and that's, this is
a romantic, nostalgic view and
perspective of what we all
experience got we were lucky
enough to
experience, well, I think we all
love radio, yeah, that's why we
got into right?
And a lot of it was what the
same message I put out to
anybody who's still left in the
business, if I think not, if,
when what you're saying comes to
pass, the people that are still
there need to know they are
still valuable. Because you have
it over all the different
content creators that are out
there on Instagram, Tiktok, that
are struggling to create
content, you know, a couple
times a week. Do you guys?
You're doing this every day,
every day you're doing this
every day. You're already in the
rhythm. Yeah, remember that, you
know. And so a couple of people
are actually figuring the, you
know, the pivot out, you know,
but there, I think they're a lot
of people in the radio business
right now are a lot more
valuable to digital marketing
companies, like all anybody,
anybody who's like in a
management position at a digital
marketing company, whether
you're doing content creation
for influencers or whatever.
Hire these people. This is what
they do. They live in that
creative space. You know, all
the time, there's hope.
There is hope. But I think that
though there are less people
doing what we all do every day,
there are less people, but there
are still people doing it, and
there are less people to fill
those jobs. Either they've moved
on to something else, they've
aged out, they got smart. I
don't know. There is a need for
young, new talent in the
industry, and as an industry, we
have not done the best at
bringing those people on board.
And I you know, if you're a
broadcaster and you're
listening, wrap your arms around
some of these young guys and
girls and bring them in if
they're doing a podcast, show
them the positive sides of radio
and where it's still growing and
where you can still be
successful.
But you know Ron the ability to
get into the industry and make a
living. I mean, when you can
make more at Chick fil A, I
mean, that that, let's face it,
that that's, that's an issue.
It's horrid. I mean, you know,
you can't live on 25, or $30,000
a year, $40,000 a year. And you
know, there are people in our
building that make $40,000 a
year, that have full time jobs,
um. You know, that's rough. You
know your your rent is, you
know, 1516, $1,700 in Nashville.
How do you how do you make ends
meet? I worry about that. I
think about that with my staff a
lot. I go to war with, you know,
the people that write the checks
a lot. It doesn't do any good.
But the reality that I tried to
remind myself of and I'm so far
removed from it, I forget
sometimes. But when I started in
this business, my first
contract, I made $750 a month to
do seven to midnight, yeah. And
different time, my rent was $200
you know, I get it. But even
when I was in my 30s, and when I
was programming, you know,
legitimate radio stations, you
know, a 35,000 $40,000 a year
job was kind of expected, you
know. And you had to figure out,
how do I do it? And it was worse
for the guy doing midday,
because he was making 25 you
know, and you just go, we all
struggled through those early
years, I think, hoping for a
point where it was going to get
better. And I think it did. It
did. It does for a lot of
people, but it's not an industry
to get into if you want to get
rich, because none of us have
done
it right, right? You know, from
a sales perspective, you
mentioned that, you know, sales
tax have shrunk as well. I mean,
what do you find is most
attractive to the advertisers
these days? Is it the the
digital landscape, the website,
the all you know, being on the
app, that kind of thing? I mean,
what? What is the, what is the
sales point that that your sales
folks seem to really have the
most success with, you know,
I will give a tip of the hat to
I heart, which I don't do very
often. Their digital division is
really good. You know, they,
they've spent a lot of money
there. They've spent a lot of
time and energy and effort, and
from a sales standpoint,
they're, I think, way ahead of
where we are as a company. We
have that division. It's
obviously much smaller. I think
we do marry radio and digital
together well, and I think we do
create great results for our
clients. But I don't think
that's the sizzle for our sales
people right now, because,
again, they're older, you know,
they they want to go and sell
radio I think that their revenue
is more closely associated with
radio spots. You know, the spot
buy is going to be bigger than
the digital buy. I still
believe, and I think with our
staff, this is true. I hope it
is, that the connection that we
have, you know, let's talk about
Jack in particular. Moose has
been with that radio station for
20 years. What a great guy. What
a great guy, right? Yeah, and
he, he is who he is, on the air,
off the air on the streets, in
with the sales force, he will go
out on the streets and pump gas
in his shorts and T shirt, and
if a listener comes up, he will
make that personal connection,
not because it's part of his
job, it's because of who he is
exactly. And he lives that every
day. You can't buy that, that
that reality of who he is, those
personal touches, that
connection that he can make. And
we have other people in our
building that that can make
those connections too. You can't
always get that when you're
doing seven radio brands, or
whatever you're doing, and AI is
not going to do it. That's just
what a terrible thought. But I
hope that our sales staff still
sees the value in that personal
connection, and I hope that our
listeners still see the value,
and that I know they do, and I
believe the advertisers do. I
mean, we still do a ton of
endorsements. I think it still
works for the client. I think
we're in this cool industry
that's so protected. You know,
anybody can start a live stream.
Only so many licenses are
available in Nashville. FCC has
protected us. We have a lane
that is all to ourselves. No one
can come in and encroach on what
we're doing. We have this
competitive advantage, but we've
tried to give it away so many
times by just not covering the
bases and doing it well. And I
try every day. I know there's a
lot of people out there every
day that love radio, breathe,
radio, live radio. Still Believe
in what we do every day. I think
that there's a long lifespan
left for what we do. It's
accessible, it's free, it's
easy. Everybody knows what it
is. There's still great music
discovery. There's still great
content for talk. These are big
voices, big you know, megaphones
that reach so many people,
hundreds of 1000s of people
every week. How does that fail?
Yeah, we've tried. We try, but
there's a lot of life, I think
left. Do we still struggle
through some hard times? It's,
you know, it's this year has
been rough. Well, you know,
especially given as we record
this, it was just a couple of
weeks ago, we had the major
weather event here with the ice
storm, and that really wreaked
havoc on the middle Tennessee
area. And that is where radio,
the immediacy of it can really,
really shine, unlike any other
medium, absolutely.
And I think that a lot of radio
stations in town did an
excellent job with that. We were
challenged by it a little bit.
We don't have de ICERs on our
sticks, on our towers, our
antennas, so y'all, one of the
radio stations I program was
actually off the air for 36
hours. You know, that's a pretty
devastating blow in a PPM
market.
Well, it broke my wife's heart.
Not that
her heart was broken, but I'm
glad she listens. You know,
that's a that's hard. Jack was
on low power for quite a while,
and mix was almost unlistenable
for about 30 hours. And at the
same time, we were getting
people calling us, State Farm
and other advertisers were
calling us saying, Hey, we would
like to start a pretty
significant radio buy at a
pretty significant rate. They
wanted on right away. You know,
they wanted to reach their
customers. And I actually hit
the brakes and said, well, whoa,
we I don't love our signal. Let
me get on the phone with the
engineering staff and find out
when we're going to be back to
full power before we take this
revenue. And we were able to do
that, and I felt good about
moving forward, but, you know,
it was almost, we almost lost
money because of it. So, you
know, I think you're right, the
the immediacy, when you're in
your car and it's snowing and
you're trying to get home, you
could flip on the radio station,
and hopefully there's somebody
live in the studio who can say,
Yeah, this is what's going on,
and this is, you know, this is
what you can expect, Jack and
y'all are little different
animals. You know, we don't have
that live Air Staff, per se, but
I think we have a valuable
service we do, too, and that's
just entertain everyone sure,
you know, and and make a local
connection. I have said for
Jack, and I would say this about
y'all as well, we're as live and
local as anybody else. And
people will look at me and go,
Well, no, you're not, did you
not live at all? You're, you
know. And I go, you know, every
song that we play, that decision
is made in my office. Every
piece of imaging that's written
and gets on those radio stations
is written in my office. Every
promotion that we decide to do
is decided in my office.
Everything that moose does out
in the streets we talk about in
my office. We are connected to
the community. We are at events.
We are at concerts. We are at
everything that's going on in
town. We are part of that. We're
talking about part of that where
some of these other companies,
you know, the playlist is
corporate, coming from another
city. It's voice tracked, you
know, somebody from another city
that's maybe never even been to
Nashville. They're they're
reading liners that might not
have been written here. You
know, they're on googling
Nashville to find out what they
should talk about. You know,
we're not doing any of that.
We're actually in this city. We
love the city. We're part of
this city, and the decisions
about what you hear are made in
this city. So I think of us as a
local radio station. The live
part is a little little fishy,
but we are in the studio
recording stuff that plays back
pretty quickly. We are talking
about the things that are going
on in the city almost as they
happen. So I kind of stand by
that statement, even though I
get questioned about it.
Yeah, is are they to expedite
the process? Obviously, you
mentioned I heart earlier. They
have proof of concept with the
like, are they actually on the
air, driving and migrating the
audience to the podcasting
properties, if you will? I think
that's their goal. Absolutely.
Yeah. It's a good goal, yeah,
and it's no. I think their
digital space is more important
to them than their terrestrial
antennas, which I think it
should be. I think it should be
in time. I'm not sure we're at
that moment. They've been
working on it for 20 years, 20
plus years, you know, they in
various, yeah, and I think
they've gotten a, you know,
ahead of the pitch count a
little bit sometimes, you know,
they were really early adapters
with HD. I think they saw that
there were all these sub
channels that they could, you
know, have content on. And they
went out and they spent millions
and millions and millions of
dollars on these first
generation HD transmitters, who,
by the time they got them all
installed, were pretty much
obsolete, you know. And then
they found out what we have in
this building, in this cluster,
now, we have seven of these sub
channels, but we don't have any
content, you know. I literally
know interns that they said,
Hey, do you know anything about
smooth jazz? Because you want to
run a radio station, you know?
Because they just didn't. There
wasn't anything there. And so I
think that the cart got before
the horse a little bit. But. I
guess that's a good thing. I'd
rather be having to pull back
and learn from my mistakes than
sitting on the sidelines. I
think that they drive what we do
as an industry. By the way, I
don't always agree with the way
they're driving it.
That's my point. Is that I think
ultimately, you know, they're
taking on all and spending this
money. Are they servicing the
debt? You know, we know
bankruptcy said they didn't,
right? This is why they're known
as, I heart, right? Okay,
formerly known as Clear Channel,
right? Which means to tell me
that eventually they're gonna
screw this up too. So I have
faith they're good. So I mean,
why not take that business model
with the advantage you guys
have, and expedite that, that
same kind of model that seems to
be working, you still have the
towers and everything like you
still have the live and local
aspect. But, man, build a
podcast network. You got plenty
of podcasts here in town. This
one being one of them, right?
Absolutely, you can add to a
network and sell, you
know, yeah, I think that, you
know, my company again, smaller.
We have 92 radio stations. I
think that would be our goal. I
think that, you know, pie in the
sky, we'd love to get there.
We're just not very good at it,
you know. I think we need help.
We have hired some people in the
last six months that are
pointing us in that direction. I
think there's hope and there's
there's more direction and more
of a goal. But it's not easy,
you know. And I think for two
reasons. One, you've got these
old school broadcasters, and I
may be among them that are
resistant, that aren't 100,000%
on board, because I'm worried
about protecting my, you know,
my traditional signal. And then
you've just got the expense and
the the knowledge to help you
move forward, you know, 2000 I
remember late 90s, you know, I
had corporate coming in telling
me that everything was going to
focus on my website. You know,
we had to sell the website. We
had to get all this stuff going
in. I was like, well, awesome,
great. What about all these
unsold spots? Why don't we sell
some radio while we're at. And
you know that, yeah, our website
is a thing. It's not the thing,
right? You know? So we have all
seen things come and go to the
industry that was going to be
the next big thing. And I'm not
detracting from where we are. I
think we are moving in that
direction, but I think that's
why there's some hesitancy and
some nervousness about jumping
in with both feet. I heart
jumped in with both feet.
They've done really well. They
make money from their podcast.
They make money from all their
digital investments. Again, I
think they've done really,
really well at that side of the
business. Has it been at the
expense of what's coming out of
the speakers? That would be my
question. They've taken all this
money and dedicated it to their
digital platforms and cut Air
Staff, you know, or cut
promotions budgets and cut
marketing. And, you know, I, I
don't know that that was the
right thing to do. I think they
gave up on what got them to the
dance too fast. And I, no one in
their organization said we gave
up on radio. I'm sure that was
never a conversation, but they
did move a lot of resources
quickly.
Well, how many plates are they
spinning? Though, over there,
they got events, concerts.
They're spending a lot of a lot
of plates. Yeah, they are, and
they're making money from a lot
of those spinning plates, maybe
more more at this point, than
they are from some of the
terrestrial radio properties,
you know, and good for them, you
know, if that, if it was a two
way street, if radio paid for
these advancements, and then
these advancements started
making money, and they paid for
radio to have more promotions,
more talent, more opportunity,
exactly, I would be super
excited. I think it's a one way
street. I think radio helps pay
for our digital initiatives, and
then if there is return from
those initiatives, it goes
either to the bottom line or to
corporate. You know, it doesn't
funnel back to Wow. We had an
amazing digital year. You can
have a couple more part timers,
or you get a new midday show,
or, wow, you get a new vehicle,
because your vehicle is 17 years
old. You know that? That doesn't
seem to be the business model.
You know which? It's a business.
I understand it. You know, none
of us, none of us got in to do
this for free, and neither did
the corporations we work for.
They expect return on their
investment
now in terms of the social media
component. I mean, are you being
told to replace, for lack of a
better term, a lot of the
marketing that was part of a
budget at one time, and now it's
well, you know, Facebook's free.
Facebook's free, yeah, you know,
on occasion, I will get some
dollars dedicated, you know, to
geo fencing, a concert or
something, if it just makes
sense for the brand. For y'all,
it's pretty simple, if, if you
know, Clint Black is at the
Ryman, well, there's, there's a
fish in a barrel opportunity, I
don't get. Those dollars. Very
much. Again, whatever goes to
digital stays in digital, and it
doesn't really come back. We we
understand, you know, in our
building and my staffs how
important social media is to
everyone, how important their
phone is to everyone, how
important it is to the survival
of what we do. So we're trying
to take advantage of every
opportunity without spamming and
without cluttering up people's
lives, to be part of the
interaction of their day. And
that's where the moose comes in,
or the tailor on y'all, me a
little bit on y'all, we just
hired Carissa Ella on y'all to
have a little footprint in their
life. And again, it's that
personality driven stuff that if
we can get into your social
media a little bit without being
overbearing about it absolutely
behooves us. It's something that
we need to be doing better at. I
think we we do a fine job. Finds
a terrible word we should do
better.
Do you have someone dedicated to
keep track of all that? Because
that's that's that's a heck of
an undertaking. That's a full
time gig,
to really do it right? I would
say that it is a, it is a
village effort, Yeah,
unfortunately, for for Jack, for
an example, we have a marketing
person who is assigned to that
brand and to y'all so she
officially would oversee that,
but she has 15 other
responsibilities, sure. So moose
is helping her. I am helping
her. Anybody that goes out for
the promotions team, and we do
have about six or seven part
time employees that make up the
street team. So if they're out,
they post, you know, if I'm just
driving down the road and I see
something that makes sense, I'll
post. I like it more when moose
does it and, you know, or Taylor
does it. I think that no one
really knows me, you know, a
little bit on y'all Not, not
really on Jack this much. But
when moose or when our
promotions team doesn't, there's
not that personal connection. If
moose says, hey, it's moose. And
I just saw this just, you know,
and does it through social
media, I think there's, again,
that personal connection. There
is more sales driven content now
than there was five years ago.
Because though we try not to
sell that, when somebody comes
in and says, Hey, here's 500
bucks.
You take the money. Yeah, I hear
you, yeah.
What is, what would be an
example of, like, sales driven.
Content was
that, look, oh, I mean, content
is sales driven, you know, XYZ,
grand opening. And if, if we're
doing a remote moose is going to
be there, okay, that's fine. But
if moose isn't going to be
there, and they just bought a
schedule, but all of a sudden
we're posting about this amazing
Grand Opening they're doing,
yeah, it crosses a little bit of
a line. And, I mean, there's a
little tagline the sponsored
content, whatever, but they
don't see that. They just see
that we're promoting it, it's
spam to them, or at least that's
the way I look at it. If I get
it, I go, Yeah, why did I get
this? It's got my logo on it.
Then I'm like, yeah, it's got my
logo and I want to do that. Come
on, we're better than that.
Well, it's kind of like talk
radio. I have never liked when
they when they'll have a talk
show host, bring on a sponsor as
a guest, because it just takes
away from all credibility, no
credibility whatsoever, none.
And especially if it's iffy, you
know. Yes, you know. And
sometimes it is yes, you know.
And you're like, I can't believe
they're making me do this. Yeah,
but
you know, hopefully the good
always outweighs the bad. Yes,
you know. And you get, you know,
to program your brands, and you
get to do the right thing all
the time. You don't, but if you
get there 90% of the time, or
95% of the time, wow, that's a
win, you know. And I, and I've
listened, you know, to stuff
that you've done or whatever,
and and go, oh yeah, he's
cringing. There's somebody in
the studio they do not want to
be talking. But, you know, I
don't. I think it's forgivable
periodically. I don't know that
the audience always holds us
accountable. I don't know if
they're as critical about those
things as I am. Maybe I'm just a
cynic, but, or maybe we're just
more aware and more in tune.
Yeah, yeah.
That's one thing I did love
about Phil Valentine, is that he
he never would allow like
salesperson would come in and
say, Hey, so and so wants to be
a guest on your show. And he go,
no, they're a client. Yeah. He
said, I
gotta have a wall for a guy
who's programmed music stations
his whole life. I listened to
Phil. I was definitely a p1 and
thank you absolutely so honest.
Just thought he was such a
bright guy and so So just real
and so honest and just so
insightful. I would look at
those numbers and afternoons and
just go, Oh, he's killing me.
But I. Yeah, he should have
been, you know, those were,
yeah, those were great shows.
Well, thank you for that. Yeah,
and he was, he was,
and you were a huge part of it,
you know, it's just, you know, I
just, I, you know, I miss
listening. I miss
it myself. It
was, it was, it's good radio,
yeah, and compelling content.
And, you know, not decisive in
it, you know, yeah, and just,
just thought out, well,
he was reasonable. He wasn't
like a lot of some talk show
hosts are. It's just an echo
chamber. It's also, it's like
the guy that they voted for
their championing can do no
wrong if somebody that he voted
for did wrong. Well, I mean,
look at Glenn cassida, right? He
really, right. Laid into him.
Yeah?
I just Yeah. I always felt like
he was telling you the truth.
He was, he was an honest guy.
That's why I knew I would go
far. I said, I'm not leaving
this guy, because he's the most
honest man I've ever met in
radio. He'll tell you the truth.
Sometimes it hurts.
I don't know if that's ever been
somebody's business model.
Tell the truth, you might win.
Wow. Novel concept. Didn't think
of that. Why didn't somebody
tell me?
Well, Ron is a guy that programs
music radio and has all time,
all these years. What do you see
yourself separating music radio
from the Spotify is the YouTube
Music, the Apple Music. I mean,
what? What is your advantage?
You know, I think that when I
look at the pure plays and what
they're doing and I listen, I
I'm part of that group, I guess
I think we still have, and I
don't want to harp on it, a
couple avenues that we win. One
is moose. One is that, you know,
we're giving you an opportunity
to be local personality,
personality content that they
don't have. I think even our
writing that's local and funny
and entertaining our billboards,
you know, when people see that,
they realize there's a
connection there. You know, when
I listen to XM, you know,
satellite radio, I'm really into
it for about a week, and then
after about a week, I It's
weird. I feel like there's
something missing, you know, and
I'll be just all in for a week,
and then I won't listen for six
months, because I just feel like
there is something going on that
I'm not aware of in my
community. And then I'm back to
terrestrial radio, I think, with
the writing, the connection, the
personalities, and there is
still great music discovery.
It's you don't have to. People
are lazy. I'm lazy. I don't have
to go to Spotify and search my
playlist, and I put in what I
like, and I put this thing, and
it tells me that I might like
this guy or whatever. I don't
have to do any of that. I can
drive in my car. And some dude
like me picked out some songs
they thought I might like and
they're playing them for me, and
maybe I do like them. And then I
have music discovery, and I
didn't even know I was and now I
have a new artist that I like. I
think it can be that simple, you
know, I think you still have,
you know, it's crazy as it is,
you know, somebody's doing a big
show at Bridgestone, and
everybody's excited about
winning those tickets. That's
really not who we are as radio
stations, but that personal
connection and that fun is who
we are. You know, we're doing
trips to the Caribbean a couple
times a year. A lot of people
just they're never going to have
that experience unless we give
it to them. You know that people
work really hard and to take,
you know, $10,000 and go on a
vacation is just not reasonable
for them at this point. I think
we offer really cool things for
them to interact with, us with
and I just think that we're
family to them to some extent.
Panda, Pandora is never going to
offer you that correct, no,
correct,
no, and they don't have moose,
and they don't have moose. I
mean,
I mean, they don't have the
budget that we have for his
shorts.
I'm just so glad that you guys
have kept him this long as you
talk about a personality that,
oh yeah.
Well, and I went here pat myself
on the back when I came in and
Jim, you'll probably remember
some of this. His image was a
little different, you know,
they, they kind of had him in,
you know, broken glasses with a
piece of tape. Yeah, they had
the pocket protector and, you
know, the short sleeve shirt
untucked. And I was, I, one of
the first things I did when,
when I got there, is I sat down
with him and said, Is this you?
And he was like, oh, no, this is
not me at all. And I was like,
Well, who are you? You know, as
a person, who are you? Yeah. And
he said, Oh, this big lovable
teddy bear. And I said, Well,
then, why are we doing that?
Exactly, why don't you just be a
big lovable teddy bear? He goes,
Well, I wear goofy shorts. And I
go, okay, wear goofy shorts. Be
a big lovable teddy bear. Throw
those fake. Glasses away. Take
that pocket protector out.
That's just dumb. Let's let the
audience behind the curtain and
show them who you are as a
person, as long and this is a
huge caveat, as long as you're
okay with that, because you're
gonna get stopped at the gas
pump and people are gonna go,
are you moose? And you're gonna
have to buy in, yeah. So if
you're ready to take that step
if you're ready to take your
personal life and make it a
brand, and make it part of this
brand where you're never going
to get a moment's, you know,
away from it, then let's move
forward. And he said, I want to
be one of the most recognizable
air personalities in Nashville,
and I don't have a show. And I
was like, That is a great goal.
Let's see if we can get that
done. And it's pretty close.
Yeah, you know, for a guy who is
not doing mornings or mid days
or afternoons, he's as doing all
days, you know, he's he's as
visible and as connected as
anyone is, I think he has as
many loyal fans, and I see them
out on the streets. I'm shocked.
That's probably a big word. I'm
amazed. Maybe we'll say that
Jack is a huge brand. It's been
here for 20 plus years now. It's
had amazing ratings. We've had,
I guess, 54 number one, months,
2554 persons, tunes, sometimes
350, almost 400,000 people,
along with our sister station,
mix just has been these dominant
powerhouses for a decade. Mix
much longer, when I go out on
the streets and I'm around those
brands, and I see the excitement
that you don't get with Pandora,
when I see listeners coming up
and talking and interacting with
the brands, I expect a positive
experience almost every time,
and I expect it to be
substantial. When mix is out
there, when Jack is out there,
it's noticeable. I did not
expect that with y'all, you
know, I've called it my little
baby brand. You know, it's two
and a half years old now, it's
not like nobody was doing
country in this market. You
know, there were, there were
stations out there, when I'm on
the streets, when I'm behind a
table or on a stage, and it's at
a y'all event, or we pull up in
the y'all truck, it's the same
response, yeah, you know, it's
this overwhelming excitement
about the brand. And you know,
it comes 100,000 instead of
three or 400,000 you know, its
ratings are not anywhere near
what Jack or mixes are, but
there is a very loyal,
connected, big time, yes,
audience. My wife is a perfect
example. It's amazing, yeah, you
know. And I just got me hooked.
People have come to me and said,
Why didn't this happen before?
You know, there's this huge,
just amazing amount of music
that was so big in the 90s that
people just didn't play, yeah?
So, you know, we don't play
anything older. The first thing
is a 1980s a 1980 Alabama song.
So we go back to 80. We stop at
2000 512, 1006 song at this
point, that's just such a great
time for country radio. And you
know, nothing against our
competitors. They were all doing
a very fine job, but they were
all sort of doing the same
thing. I mean, I'm friends with
some of those guys. I love I
love listening to them. I listen
a lot, but they all kind of
sound musically the same. I
mean, there's a little
difference between KDF and SM.
Now so more, not sure that that
was the right move, but now so
more. But we just felt like, you
know, there's this lane that's
super underserved, not served,
not even, not even underserved,
just not served, that we can put
a jack type brand on, run fairly
inexpensively, and be very
successful. And, you know, when
we launched, I said, I think I
said this, you know, a few
months ago with you, I went on
record saying, we don't have to
beat anybody to be successful.
That's that's not the goal. The
goal is to be viable and to be
listened to. We need to find our
voice and our audience. I'm not
worried about the big three. You
know, they're great radio
stations. When we launched, that
week, mix was one, Jack was two,
WSM was no, si X was three, KDF
was four. I do not remember who
was five and WSM was six. So
three of the talks, six radio
stations, 2554, were country.
The day we launched, the week we
launched, there has not been,
and this is devastatingly bad
for all of us. There has not
been a top 10 country radio
station, 2554, persons in the
last year. So, and I don't think
it's a music cycle, I think we
did just everything's
compressed. I think we did just
enough damage. It brought
everybody down, just enough that
everybody else snuck in. Front
of them. We are normally the
third country radio station. We
always beat at least one. There
are times we've beat two. There
are times we've beat all three,
like three months. I'm not gonna
hang my hat on that, but we are
competitive now. We have found
that lane. We have found our
audience. And even though, like
I have, Taylor is kind of the
face of that brand. You know,
she's a 30 year old female,
she's a songwriter. She's been
connected to the country music
industry for 10 years. She's
great with the artists that we
have coming in. We have tons of
artists coming in because
they're here and they're
accessible. So there's something
else that we have that the pure
plays don't have, you know, we
have artist interaction coming
in. We you know, we do talking
with Taylor on Sundays, and, you
know, every week there's
somebody in the studio talking
to us that's got a number one
song, you know, and we're
getting to find out what they're
doing now, and, you know what's
going on with their life. And
sometimes I'm just curious, you
know, if I somebody had one hit,
and, you know, 95 I haven't even
kept up with them. It's kind of
interesting sometimes to go back
and see where they are, exactly
what they're doing. And a lot of
times they're still out on the
road. Oh, big time.
Yeah, that's about the only way
they can still make a living.
That's the truth?
Yeah, yeah. So, so I, you know,
I think we still have it a lot.
I mean, that's like a 10 minute
answer to a question. So sorry,
but I think we still have a real
lane that our competitors. I
mean, the digital side of it is
awesome. You can take your phone
and go listen, and, you know,
there's gonna be some music that
you you're gonna discover, but
we're still doing that for
people,
I would think that your lane has
gotten wider since ws MFM
dropped the whole mash icon.
It has, yeah, I wanted to send
somebody a fruit basket.
I know who that is, yeah,
you know. And it's funny,
Charlie, you know, is a friend,
and you know, I've known Charlie
for a while, and he would say,
we're friends. I would say we're
friends when he left the
building. I I always wondered,
you have these two huge brands,
why can't you squeeze s i x? Why
can't you get on either side and
do real damage, because si X
honestly, was probably the
dominant country radio station
through a lot of those years,
and I thought they sounded a
little bit better. I thought
musically, they were a little
bit better. Oh my, by the way,
if the I heart people ever hear
this, I apologize. I'm sorry. I
did not mean this. All the I
heart people don't want to talk
to anybody. They're not friendly
with you. They don't want to, if
you see them in an event or a
concert, they they're like, oh,
it's, you
know, the Cubans. People
are very kind and very generous
with their time, and they'll
talk to you. And I have
relationships with most of them.
And, you know, we're all just
one big, happy family. For
whatever reason, the people
aren't in our family.
But when was this going?
It was with Charlie, way too
honest. Nobody quote me. Is this
on?
So the funny thing was, is, you
know, I thought he could do
this, and he didn't do it, and
Charlie, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I
just thought he could, he could
do more damage. And then when
Travis came in, you know, year
or so goes by and I get it. If I
come into a building, I'm not
going to make a bunch of changes
in the first year. I need to get
the lay of the land. I need to
understand why people are doing
things before I, or you did it
the way he did it, right? Well,
because maybe you don't know. I
mean, I've seen people rush into
decisions and then go, Oh no,
the whole building just fell
down because I pulled this out.
That's the guy with the resume.
Every year he has a new job
title. Sorry, not supposed to do
that. I've known some guys that
do that, so I would not do that.
And I think Travis didn't, I
think he didn't do it. But, you
know, he took musically is, is,
you know, KDF is a different
animal right now, especially
during his show, there's a lot
of undiscovered music there, and
he has a very specific, unique
idea for what he I've talked to
him about it. Maybe I'm maybe I
don't know he has, I believe he
has a very specific idea and
direction that he wants that
radio station to go. And he is,
you know, Damn the torpedoes,
full speed ahead, and he's
getting it there. And if he can
push it over the finish line,
and he can accomplish the things
that I think he wants to
accomplish. He is going to be
the smartest guy in the
Nashville radio industry. If he
doesn't get it there, you're the
resume gets another line.
That's the way, that's the way
the industry works,
way the business is. What.
Yeah, and I listen, you know,
when I hear, you know, I'll hear
an album cut something that the
label was probably throwing a
fit about, because he's not
playing the single. And, you
know, the first time somebody
misses a number one because, you
know, Katie F played the album
cut 10 times instead of the
current single. We'll see what
kind of pushback there is. I
don't know. I love the the
aggressive behavior. I love the
I'm going to think outside the
box. I love that I'm going to
willing to roll the dice. I love
that I'm going to do something
different and take chances, and
I'm going to revitalize this
brand. I love all that
bit of a gamble. Yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, WSM FM. Now,
since, you know, the Nash icon
was dispensed with, I mean, it's
pretty just kind of middle of
the road mainstream. Now, you
know, it is,
it is. And, you know, I always
thought Big D and Bubba probably
should have been the morning
show there instead of KDF,
thought it fit the brand a
little bit better.
The way the move happened, I
think was a little abrupt.
You know, I'm not disappointed
that they're over there. I don't
I haven't talked to them about
it specifically, but I think
it's great home for them. You
know, the air staff that had
been there traditionally and and
had my respect that, you know,
don't work in the building any
longer. I felt bad for them, you
know, moving the folks from KDF
and kind of clearing the way
over, you know, I think was a
little bump in the road. I get
it. Sometimes you have to break
the eggs, you know, to make the
omelet. I think that's what he
was trying to do. You know, I
really like some of those people
that aren't there and thought
they did a fine job. So, you
know, it's a business. I
understand that it's, it's a sad
part of the business. What I
didn't get about the move and
being an armchair quarterback,
and Travis will beat me up the
next time he sees me for saying
this. You know, you spent three
years building the big D and
Bubba show as a part of KDF. You
know, it was on the RDS, it was
in all the promos. It was, you
know, it was so much a part of
that brand, purposely. I mean,
everything was about Big D and
Bubba in the mornings. And by
the way, this is going on on
wkdf. And then overnight they
moved them, and they didn't move
them off. They didn't go away.
They went to the sister station
down the hall. So in my world, I
say, Wow, this is awesome. We've
just had this amazing thing
happened. And I run 1000 promos
going, if you love Big D and
Bubba, don't worry. They're down
the hall. Here's where you find
them. You know, I'm gonna move
that audience. Yeah, yeah. That
didn't happen. You know, there
was very little noise on the
radio station about where these
folks, yeah, where, where did
they go? Where did they go? And
I think that it was one of those
things. Those things where I
would have done it differently.
I would, you know, I programmed
both these radio stations. I
want to see both of them
succeed. And I think the focus
really shifted to KDF and the
new future and the goals there.
And then we're going to take
these pieces and we're going to,
we're going to toss them over
here and let the I should not be
having this conversation that's
over my pay grade, and I don't
know. I mean, maybe I'm
completely wrong. So I
absolutely wasn't in the room,
obviously, but it just feels
like, from a listener
standpoint, that the focus
became, we are going to get KDF
across the finish line, and it
is going to attack si X and
we're going to be the number one
country radio station. And I
don't care what happens with
everything else and, and from a
programmer who loves radio, that
hurts a little bit, yeah, you
know, you're throwing away a big
stick again. It's a big that's a
big statement. I don't mean
anything by that, other than
outside looking in,
sure. I mean, that's just a
competitive analysis.
I have this. I wish I had that
stick, if I had that signal for
y'all, wow. I mean, I'd love to
have it, you know, we'd love to
buy it and have it in our
building. That's just not gonna
happen, you know. And I think
it's a little bit of an
afterthought right now, which is
sad, because there's some great
people over there. There's been
great people over there. There's
some great programming over
there. They still make money.
They're still viable.
I just want them to be important
too.
Yeah, out of all the music radio
that you've programmed, I mean,
is there a format that just
really gets your juices going?
Polka? I love polka. Jimmy,
stir. Is your guy?
Man, love me. Yeah, that's what
we're gonna do. You know, I
country's probably in my blood.
You know, I've programmed a.
Bunch of country radio stations.
I've launched a handful, three
or four, but adult hits, you
know, it's the music that I grew
up with, yeah. And, you know, I
graduated high school and 82
that was a 1982 they had numbers
back then. And, you know, so
journey and Boston, and, you
know, all those, those were the
bands, you know, sure. So we get
to still play all those. And I
was fortunate. There was a
couple. I heard the very first
Jack launch. I was in Wichita,
actually, and I heard the first
Jack launch in the country in
Denver, and it was on this
little rim shot stick that
didn't have much of a chance. It
sounded awesome. And I don't
even remember how I found it.
Started streaming. It started
listening to it. So this is
probably oh four, and just fell
in love. Went to my company at
that time, was journal, and
said, we have this stick that
hasn't been successful. This
what we should be doing. Thank
God. They didn't listen to me.
They're like, No, we're not
going to do that. So couple
years go by, I leave, go to
Kansas City, had an opportunity
to come back to Wichita, and
connoisseur media was restarting
their company. They had bought
some construction permits, and
they said, We're going to do
this adult hits thing. And my
first thought went, Oh, they're
going to do jack. So I went in
and had the conversation with
them and found out it was going
to be a bob and Joel Folger had
been part of that, and I met him
back in Wichita, drove in from
Kansas City, and we went to a
hotel conference room, and he,
he said, This is what we're
doing. This is how this
schedules. This is what it looks
like. Couldn't have had a better
teacher at that point because he
he was on the ground floor of
adult hits. So I think I spent
two or three hours with him, and
he said, Do you want the job?
And I said, I think I probably
do. And he goes, Okay, well,
this is now your laptop. And I
went, what? And he goes, so
here's the key, here's your
laptop. Here's the password. Can
you just start scheduling music
tomorrow? And I said, Well, I'm
still working in Kansas City.
And he's like, no, no, you got
this? Here's the transmitter
site. That's where the computer
is. They're building studios.
They'll call you on Monday. And
I was just like, I think I
program an adult hits radio
station now, and so that's sort
of how I got involved in it. And
it's Joel passed away a couple
years ago, and he program, or he
consulted a station in Austin
and a station in Pittsburgh,
which, if you go back and
research the last 10 years of
adult hits radio stations, my
jack and those two Bob's are
probably the highest rated three
consistent brands doing adult
hits, and his footprint is
definitely on all three of
those. So there's a little tip
of the hat that the guy knew
what he was doing. There's a
couple other guys that were
doing it at that point too, but
Joel really kind of taught me
the ropes. So I love adult hits,
but there's something about
country I love to first really
big radio station I worked for
was K 95 in Tulsa. And you know,
that was when you had a half a
million dollar marketing budget.
That's when we had a concert
every week at Tulsa city limits,
which is the club that you know,
Ronnie Dunn wrote boot scooting
Boogie about. The video was
filmed there. I was there. I
mean, that was the heyday of
doing country that stuck with
me. So what I when I started,
y'all, I actually referred back
to that time, and some of the,
some of the print and my LPD
from K 95 called me and said,
Oh, I It's amazing that you even
mentioned the brand. And I was
like, No, it's just that's who
we're going to be. So that has
always been a part of me, even
though I kind of grew up in that
rock vein. So I I'm getting the
best of both worlds. I get to
relive my, you know, teenage
years doing jack, and I get to
relive, you know, my 20s doing
country and, and I'm doing this
thing with pickle jar too. I
have a little connection there.
And so I'm getting to do new
country as well. So I don't
think I could pick three better
formats to play with. Yeah,
that's fun. Yeah. Does keep me a
little busy. Nothing wrong with
that, nothing wrong with that.
So it's fun. All right, there
you go.
I just rambled on. God
myself trouble because I've said
things somebody's gonna quote me
on now, hey, we all got in
trouble on this one, bud.
Remember you signed the release?
You know, I have a crusty the
clown doll in my office that has
the string, and you just pull
it, and it actually has, I don't
know if anybody seen the
episode, but there's one where
there's a flip on a switch on
the back that says evil or good.
And if it's evil, it says, you
know, like, crusty is going to
kill you. You know, that's and
if you and it's like, oh. Crusty
loves you if you put it on good
and I don't, I don't know what
it's on right now. I should have
checked that. Check my back, but
Travis, I'm sorry.
You know, this is what a very
natural and organic feeling
conversation can produce.
That's exactly right. And we do
this all the time. We get
ourselves in trouble.
But bad, like, I just completely
rambled on the whole time.
So no, you did not okay. It was
entertaining and informative,
and we've enjoyed having you on
with us.
Well, I appreciate the
appreciate your time, and all
these stations
and Jack FM and, of course,
y'all, yeah, good. My wife, like
I said, and she's made a convert
out of me. Now I now, when I get
in her truck, I tuned to yellow
if you can find about 200,000
more people.
Now, Jay, tell folks where they
can find
of course, we always like to
point you to the website
circling the drain.net. But
again, you can see our lovely
smiling faces. This is a video
podcast at our Yes, our social
media, yes, our social media.
That would be Facebook. Of
course. Just search circling the
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Twitter. How long do we say
formerly Twitter? Probably
forever. And of course, our
YouTube channel like and share
radio, does the all new X? Yeah,
they all say that for five
years, but yeah, circling the
dream.net, man. We got t shirts,
we got hats, we got all kind of
fun stuff. We got even photos of
all, yes, the scary photo, yes,
yeah, so we appreciate you
checking things out
and check us out next time on
circling the drain, you.