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A discipleship podcast of Anthem Church to help people take their next step in Christ.
Welcome to the discipleship pathway podcast. Our podcast exists to help people take their next step in Christ. Every disciple needs a plan in following after Christ. The road's not easy. The road's not always clear.
Nick:Our hope is to provide simple resources to help people on the journey along the way. Alright. Well, thank you guys for joining us today. Nick Serene here, one of the pastors at Anthem Church and joined here by Matt Denning's lead pastor here, with us. And so today, we're excited to dive into, this conversation about the discipleship pathway.
Nick:And before we even get into that, though, I think it's helpful to give a little bit just of who we are, what our passion points are here, at Anthem, our roles. And so, Matt, why don't you kinda start us off? Who are you? Where are you coming from? What's your, desire with this discipleship pathway here at Anthem?
Matt:Yeah. Well, first, because, the role of lead pastor, I'm focused on the overall direction. Church making sure and I I have a burning passion to see discipleship at the core of the local church. Seeing discipleship being our core competency as a church. But in addition to that, thinking about what content, materials, structures that we need, equipping that we need as a church, in order to see that happen.
Matt:And so, the discipleship pathway is really the fruit of a lot of, that thinking. And then, also, working with staff and members of Anthem, and thinking how do we move forward with this in a really measurable, tangible, helpful way.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. And for me as a pastor formation at Anthem, it's been a ton of fun in the last couple of years trying to figure out what do we do with small groups? What do we do with, what we call community groups, at Anthem Church? And as we've been running that out, we we've loved it, yet we've also seen, need and desire for more intentional discipleship.
Nick:And so for me, as we're looking at this idea of the discipleship pathway, it's exciting because it means that we're hopefully gonna be putting, helpful tools out in front of our people, to not just show up to church and to to grow in that way, but for people to, have clarity on what it means to walk with Jesus and to have an intentional plan, for their growth. And so, today, we're running after this question of what is the discipleship pathway. And so, Matt, as you hear that question, what's what's kind of a a helpful, analogy or or picture of us to be thinking of as we're looking at this idea of discipleship pathway.
Matt:Yeah. And even before the what is the why. Right? Why why is this important now? The, I I read of a story.
Matt:There was this small town. It's just outside of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh. It's called called Austin. I'm not even sure if it's still there to this day.
Matt:But, back in 19 09, they, small village, fairly, impoverished, not many opportunities, but they had a paper mill that moved in. They had a large water reservoir, and, the they had a paper mill that moved in, brought in all these opportunities, all these jobs, and they realized after launching the paper mill that they needed to build a dam, in order to, channel the water, so that they could run the paper mill, better at that at that point. That's how they did it. And so, they built this dam and they told everyone, hey, this dam's great. They even called it the dam that can never break in local newspapers.
Matt:The problem was that it did, in fact, it, it collapsed, one day, rained, waters build up, it collapsed. And with it, it flooded the entire town, destroying it, washing away not only souls, but all the opportunities, all the jobs, everything that I had promised. I I share that because, the well, 1, the issue they found later, the engineers, why did it collapse? It collapsed because it didn't have sufficient, buttresses. Buttresses are those kind of little triangle shaped items there at the bottom of the of the dam that kind of push counter they they provide counter pressure, on on the dam when when when that pressure builds up on the other side from the water.
Matt:And, because those weren't sufficient, when the waters rose and the pressures came, it pushed on the dam and it collapsed under that pressure. I share it because, it is a picture of, I think, much of what is going on in the church today and why we need discipleship. We need to rediscover it. Make it re place it back at the center of what we do as a church. Paul, 1st Timothy 3.
Matt:Paul says that the church is a pillar and buttress of truth. So pillar, the the church is meant to provide what we call it the plausibility structures, the the under true. This is the way we should live because God has revealed it. Right? It provides those is the way we should live because God has revealed it.
Matt:Right? It provides those truths that we build our lives on. Every even if you don't agree to a religious book, every culture has this kind of just because. The pillars of that society. And he's saying the church needs to become, provide those pillars for your life.
Matt:But not only that, that's not enough. That's that's like saying, the church provides the pillars that the dam is built on. It also needs the buttress. It's a pillar and buttress of truth. In other words, the church also provides that counter pressure in your life.
Matt:So, you're like you're like the dam. And the church provides the pillars that you're built upon. But then, also, the church provides, the relationships, the support, the encouragement, the challenging, that that pushes, kind of holds you up when you're weak and you're and the pressures build up in life. Those can be circumstantial, those could be cultural headwinds, but as those waters rise in your life, the community around you, those relationships are what support you and hold you up when you would fail. And so, in our day, the as the waters culturally rise, the pressures as the the culture increasingly becomes more secular, church does have to invest in being a pillar of truth, as kind of those foundational shared values are crumbling in our society, and fading.
Matt:The church does need to do that but I think, in this very specific way, the church needs to rediscover being the buttress, providing those relationships and whatnot, that mentor us in discipleship, or disciple us, support us, in following Jesus. Because as the pressures come, the culture is not going to pressure us towards following Christ, but rather to crumble and walk away from Christ increasingly. And so, the reason why this is important the pillar aspects of the church, standing on truth, those those largely are, in many ways, there. Now, obviously, that can be debated and where is that? There are always examples of where that's that's not true.
Matt:But in a very specific way, we have lost a lot of the buttressing. And the reason for that is, is it okay if I go into a little bit of history here? Yeah. So, let's just say around the turn of the 19th century, whatnot, the church had been ascended. So, the church for a long time in the West, had been a pillar and buttress of truth.
Matt:Not saying perfect, but I had been very purposeful in that. And and there are a lot of things probably in later episodes, we'll go into what are the the reasons, in terms of if you're a lot of churches existed in, let's say, a village of 5,000 or less people, and usually a lot less than that. Everyone knew each other. Everyone was there long term for their whole lives. And so that that process, it was much simpler.
Nick:Mhmm. Different day, different dynamics.
Matt:Yes. And so, but over time, what happened was, as the church was a pillar and buttress, that overflowed into society. Again, for better or for it not not perfectly. But the church overflowed in society and it began developing. I mean, the origin of all kinds of organizations and institutions, whether they be medical, whether they be educational.
Matt:The university is a product of essentially the church. Most medical mercy ministries, or or, I think, like, Red Cross. There's a reason why it's called the Red Cross. Mhmm. They're, also civic organizations, on and on.
Matt:And even most, let's say, businesses and corporations were built upon Judeo Christian values to some degree. In other words, the church had a leavening effect on the culture around it and and most of the institutions were largely reinforced a Christian worldview, values, whatnot way of life. What has happened over time, as that happened, the church itself really had the room, in many ways, to outsource then a lot of the formative aspects of discipleship. So, in other words, now, the schools will give your your children character formation. So the church more and more, for instance, focus less on, let's say, catechizing.
Nick:Mhmm.
Matt:Which if folks don't know what that that means, it just means where they would have a confession and you would memorize it and you would learn basic truths. But the church moved more and more away from a lot of these things. They said, maybe the family will do that, but churches, or sorry, schools will do that. Your, the different the educational institutions, the civic organizations that they're kind of para church or partnering with the church. And so, the church more and more, outsourced a lot of the key aspects of discipleship and more and more focus itself on becoming essentially a Sunday product.
Matt:Mhmm. There I mean, it's a very complex process how that happened. Obviously, different denominations, traditions Mhmm. Have done that in different ways. Mhmm.
Matt:But overall, there has been a undeniable move away from the buttressing, equipping of the church. Mhmm. And more and more, towards it being essentially a production. Mhmm. And so, Sunday becomes an experience.
Matt:And so, what's happened is, now, as the culture is beginning to move away, so are those institutions to move away from Christianity and Judeo Christian values. And so, what's happening is, not only are they no longer reinforcing and and those shaping influences on the Christian's life
Nick:Mhmm.
Matt:But also they're deforming Christians. They're moving them away from the faith. Mhmm. And so, more and more, it's important that the church is providing those buttressing relationships and those, that equipping that that reinforce the faith of the believer. Mhmm.
Matt:Does that make sense? Yeah. Did I move through that Yeah. Some way? I know that's that's broad.
Matt:There are a lot of different details in there, but generally, I believe that is that holds true. It's why we find ourselves now with an operating model of doing church, which comes with expectations of what a church provides and whatnot. And it makes it very difficult to actually focus on this whole other dynamic, influencing influencing them and their values, their beliefs away from the faith, but they also don't overlap with the rhythms of the church anymore, right? Like, so for instance, a simple one is nothing used to be on Sundays. Mhmm.
Matt:Mhmm. Well, that was obviously Yeah. Judeo Christian value. Yeah. Why nothing was on Sunday?
Matt:So, church had all that everyone was at church Sunday. All day Sunday you were, you would usually have potlucks afterwards and you'd have in the evening and I'm not saying, oh, pining for the day that we returned to that. Evening. And, I'm not saying, oh, pining for the day that we returned to that. However, that there was a Sunday, there was usually Wednesday night and whatnot, and all of a sudden those became up for grabs.
Matt:There's a really interesting there's a book called, resident aliens by Stanley Hauerwas, and he opens it with talking about in the 19 I think it was sixties when he was a kid, when all of a sudden on Wednesday nights, the movie theaters started showing movies. And and the church didn't know what to do because Wednesday nights where everyone went to church. There's no other game in time. There's no competition.
Nick:That's our night
Matt:of the week. Yeah. They were like, wait a minute. Why are we letting the churches have this? Let's show movies.
Matt:And suddenly, no one came to Wednesday nights. So now all of a sudden, you're down to, let's say, Sundays. Well, over time, now there's youth sports are all on Sunday mornings. There and there are lots of everything's open.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Matt:So there's competition now.
Nick:It's treated as a second Saturday.
Matt:Yeah. Whereas culture everything in the culture when you woke up on a Sunday morning was, hey. Maybe you should just go to church because it's the only thing open. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. There's that piece and there's just a more natural reverence, I think,
Matt:for Mhmm.
Nick:The idea of the faith in Christianity because it was a much more Christian culture
Matt:Mhmm.
Nick:At that point. And so the the church is to be, far different than, what in many regards it has become today. And what you're saying is a lot of, the the problem with that is it's that the buttresses have been removed. And, what is left of, we'll say the the greater church at times can feel. It's like, oh, you have that dam there, that wall, but you're missing the supports and Mhmm.
Nick:The the fear with that is, oh, what what's gonna happen? Yeah. What happens? You know, unless we do something.
Matt:There is a slow kind of just sliding under that pressure. Right? Maybe it's not an overnight collapse. Yeah. And and just to be clear, I would not fight for some kind of return to the glory days of 1950s Americana.
Nick:Right. Right.
Matt:I'm not making that argument. What I'm saying is that over time, argument. What I'm saying is that over time, because the church outsourced many of these dynamics, we have in large part lost the ability to, as the church, be the buttressing.
Nick:Yeah.
Matt:We we just allowed the culture. We we handed out to
Nick:the culture. We assumed
Matt:the culture, This society around us would do it. And again, that had much to say about itself in terms of, those things, largely beginning to fade. Are many, aspects of that to mourn. Mhmm. But there are also many aspects of that that are refining for the church.
Matt:And so, it just means it's incumbent upon us in our day, as the church, to rediscover that and understand it as one of our primary callings. It doesn't mean that Sundays aren't done well. It doesn't mean production value as a whole is a bad thing. It means that, you you cannot have an either or. Mhmm.
Matt:If we are to be the church, it means in our day, you have to figure out how to both how to and one of the things we'll do in a future episode is we'll talk about the role of Sundays And that includes Sunday excellence and undistracting excellence. What role though do Sundays play in the discipleship of an individual?
Nick:Yeah.
Matt:And of the church? And so it's not an either or, it's a both and. You have both that and you have discipleship and these relationships and equipping. So it's not just a Sunday event or in production and experience or you're going to equip for relationships and following Christ. You have to it's both.
Matt:Yeah. Paul is saying, it's both. Mhmm. So we're just trying to figure out how to do that in a contextually faithful way in our day.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. And so as we talk about that, then what what specifically is the discipleship pathway? Like, if that's part of the problem as we look at history and we've lost some of this, maybe compassion in the church to to care for people and and to give people, good equipping. Like, where does this discipleship pathway come into that that problem that we're
Matt:kind of, talking through on that? The discipleship pathway is you could think of it as like a ministry, maybe even program within the church. It provides and here's the key phrase. It is meant to provide measurable next steps to take in Christ. Because so much of discipleship, I think, is somewhat it's an ambiguous term for many of us.
Matt:We we don't know what next steps to take. And especially, one of the episodes we'll be looking at are the different stages in the discipleship journey, the lifelong journey that we all tend to generally go through. Mhmm. We're all in different places. We all have learned or intuited different ways of doing it.
Matt:And sometimes we just don't know what next step to take. And so, one of the discussions we've been having in the midst of this process, I've been saying, we need to have some way that someone can have a sense, as well, of progress. Like, okay, I've taken a step, like, if I'm just now going, okay, I'm, here I am, 30 some years old. I'm now, I'm a second or third kid, figuring out how to work a career. Maybe my wife works at home or she's full time at home trying to also figure out how to do this thing with the kid.
Matt:Like, we're we're trying to figure out life. In the midst of it, I hear I'm supposed to be a disciple of Jesus. Well, if you tell me, essentially, I need to like, 1, in some abstract way that's not concrete, follow Jesus. Okay, what? He's where is he?
Nick:You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Matt:Like, the first century disciples, okay, follow, yeah, literally go physically follow him. For us in art, it's like, what does that mean? And so, sometimes, we thought, well, it's like in the spirit. You're like, still, I don't what you mean. Apparently, my antenna's off.
Matt:So sometimes you end up bowing out.
Nick:Mhmm.
Matt:Because you just go, I guess, either I'll fake it or I'm just gonna bow out because I don't know what to practically do. And when I've got all these pressures, in in addition to cultural pressures
Nick:Mhmm.
Matt:Like, the culture doesn't give you you don't get cultural currency or favor. Mhmm. For following Jesus.
Nick:Right.
Matt:Right? You're not gonna you're not gonna accidentally, drift into following Jesus. Anymore. You're gonna drift out of the faith. So, if all those pressures are on me and I've got all that, I just need someone to show me, like, man, what's that next step?
Matt:Step? Like, what is it right now? And like, man, what's one thing I can do to be faithful individually in following Jesus? Maybe as a husband, as a dad? And then when you do that one thing, like, let's say it's, man, I'm leaning into my marriage because I know it is important that I would invest in this covenant relationship.
Matt:So I'm gonna Mhmm. I'm gonna take some steps in understanding what my marriage is supposed to be, a god honoring marriage. Mhmm. Whether it's biblically or, like maybe reading a few good books, or I'm going to schedule a regular, like, once a month date what night with my wife, or I'm gonna come with some questions and really intentionally try to connect with her. I'm just investing in that.
Matt:Man, that should be something that you are able to go, that was a step of faithfulness. That was a step of discipleship. And that you're able to measure it and go, I I took it.
Nick:Yeah. Like I am moving.
Matt:Maybe there's now one now.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Matt:I'm able to identify it and it's celebrated and I don't feel awful because I didn't also, have the most God honoring diet and, group of of friends. And I started a new, ministry initiative in my neighborhood. And I did and, and, and and. Now, maybe over time, you stack things and add on things and you find God's bearing fruit. But if you don't have, if you're not able to develop clear, simple steps, you're gonna try to, like, in one day, become, you know, your glorified state.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Matt:And, that, you know, a journey begins a journey is a 1,000 steps and begins with 1. Mhmm. Right? And so, we want to identify what is that next step and that's to provide for it to be encouraging, really exciting. Mhmm.
Matt:And also, in a way, and I'm getting ahead of myself because, as we get in the content, hopefully this will be seen. I think, as well and this could go back into some of the dynamics of how what were the context in which we are doing church now. Mhmm. Because the world around us doesn't match the rhythms of church, 1. 2, of being a believer.
Nick:Right.
Matt:2, the rhythm, we just live in a busier world. Yeah. Economic factors, social factors in that, lots of distractions coming at us. It it is increasingly important, I think, that discipleship pathways or plans are not a one size fits all. Now, there are one size fits all truths.
Matt:Mhmm. I mean, I don't expect to get my own personal bible. You know, you have the bible and I have the same thing. Right? Yeah.
Matt:These are universal truths. But in terms of the calling upon my life in this season, there need to be discipleship plans that actually address what I'm really facing.
Nick:Catering to where you're you're at in life.
Matt:Yeah. So as we get into it, we'll we'll unpack that this is also meant to be something that each individual, while they're walking with others, could be in a completely different season or stage of life. Mhmm. Working on a complete focusing on a completely different area, but still both intentionally taking steps of faith Mhmm. And supporting one another as they do so.
Matt:So we'll we'll get into some of that.
Nick:And so for the listeners then, like, if you're someone who's seeking after Christ for for the first time or maybe a young believer, you've had that commitment of faith to Christ. You're walking with him. This sort of thing is to to help guide someone into their their growth as a new Christian. Whereas on the flip side, if someone's been walking with Christ for years and they're they're passionate about what Jesus said when he was like, hey. You go make disciples.
Nick:For those individuals, this is exciting and helpful because it's gonna give them a way to walk with maybe peers in the faith, maybe young people in the faith, or people that are considering the faith but aren't walking with Christ yet. And so, it's it's not the the North Star, you know, the discipleship pathway, but it is a way to help orient people towards it. Is that Mhmm. Yeah.
Matt:Yeah. And then provide clarity on those next steps. I think so many individuals, nowadays because the church it's like, hey. Come back again Sunday. Have experience something.
Matt:Yeah. Part of this is too, this provides some objective, like, okay, I've taken a step. Yeah. I I I did, but maybe it's I I did. I read the word and I know we've been so allergic to anything that could strike as legalism.
Matt:Mhmm. I'm I'm sorry. Yeah. We'll we'll come back to scripture presents okay. It's it's faith that bears fruit by definition of the bible.
Matt:And it is a it is a respond. When Paul says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, what he's saying is not to save yourself, not to work into salvation, but work out what you have. Mhmm. So you're saved.
Nick:Yeah.
Matt:This grace is not opposed to effort. It's opposed to earning. You're not trying to earn your salvation. This is effort Yeah. Because you are saved.
Matt:Now Paul is saying, work it out. Like, don't don't miss it. Mhmm. Like, now you're you're free. You're born again.
Matt:Like, lean into this and experience the full life that Jesus has for you. Yeah. And so, what that means is, yeah, take hold of and then but then you're able to look at it. It's not just, come to church and do I get the feels? Well, that's a losing battle.
Nick:Mhmm. You're
Matt:always gonna need a higher high. Yeah. And that you cannot build your faith on that. That will not be enough of a budget.
Nick:Yes. It's once a week.
Matt:Yeah. 1, it's once a week. Yeah. It's not frequent enough. And 2, it's just not meant to be the meat potatoes of the faith.
Matt:And there, what we need is we need to have some sense of, okay, today, I did. I woke up a little bit early. I was saying God's word or I prayed or I I took this step when I was putting my kids to bed Mhmm. You know, praying with them. I did I add I did this thing and I'm being faithful and I'm taking these steps.
Matt:There are some objective aspects to it, not so subjective with our emotions and our feelings, that you're able to kind of it's not constantly the the next level? And as those things happen, there is a domino effect
Nick:to that.
Matt:Yeah. So, in part, what I want to do with this in thinking through the content, there is a little bit where I want to provide encouragement and hope. Like, simply put, I just want to help people identify someone and go, man, because a lot of times what I'll hear is something along the lines of, like, that people are constantly feeling like, I'm not doing enough. Not doing enough. And then when that when I start talking about the things they're trying to lean into, it's like, well, one, they didn't have any direction so they're trying to do whatever they can.
Matt:They're flailing and then 2, sometimes I hear all the things they're doing. I'm going, you're doing great. Just keep going. Yeah. Like, keep going.
Matt:What what what about what you think you're doing? Like, why are you so riddled with guilt about this? So, I think it can be helpful just in terms of it providing encouragement and hope, and it's not it's not to make it formulaic. It's not to make it a lit, you know, my relationship with God is just checking off boxes. But it's meant to provide those steps where then, it's like, okay, I've taken those steps and there's an encouragement there.
Matt:And then that and another illustration we could go into is, I've packed the kindling, right, in my life and then when and what will happen is over time God will come with his fire. Like I planted other people water in my life, all these things. God will provide the growth. Mhmm. And so it just it's stabilizing Yeah.
Matt:While moving us forward. So
Nick:Yeah. Paul in Ephesians and in Philippians, he talks about walking in a manner that's worthy of the calling of Christ. And and this is just, a a plan that that that we believe that God can use to help people in that journey, that walking, in that manner, that's bringing Christ glory. And so, then talking about discipleship pathway, what what's discipleship? As we're following after Christ, you know, we hear, okay.
Nick:You've committed to the lord and, you're you're one of his children and you're to be discipled. Christ is, to be growing up in you. What what what does discipleship mean?
Matt:Well, simply put, discipleship is following in the way of Jesus. When Jesus sent John 146, I'm the way, I'm the truth, and I am the life. So life is found in Christ. Only by coming to Christ will we find that life. You know, Jesus again and again, the gospels, he says, come follow me.
Matt:I'll make you fishers of men. And what he's inviting them there too is to be transformed. I'll make you into something, you know. And I'll fundamentally change the ultimate calling of your life from Yeah. Every day, you might be a fisherman.
Matt:That might not change. But, ultimately, you're a fisher of men now. That, ultimately, there's a greater kingdom purpose for which you live, and that can play out being a school teacher. That can be played out being a mom or dad, being an athlete. Yeah.
Matt:But, ultimately, Jesus is gonna change you. And, fundamentally, what he's gonna do is he's gonna, invite you to follow in his way. Mhmm. He's gonna give you life, and he's gonna follow or he's gonna call you to follow in his way, and you're gonna become more and more like him and be transformed, in in to more his likeness. Yeah.
Matt:So the way we put this at Anthem is to help you our mission as a church is to help you know, love, and obey Jesus. Right. Discipleship pathway is just giving practical steps to that Mhmm. Immeasurables. And so to know Jesus is gonna be to to to know more and more of his grace and his redemption, and that's gonna lead to more and more of loving him as you realize how he loved loved you.
Matt:Yeah. And then that's gonna lead to obedience, which is almost an enjoyment. Like, you realize Yeah. The love of God poured into you, it overflows into obedience. Mhmm.
Matt:And then as that happens, then as you walk in obedience, well, that leads to its kind of a cycle. It brings you back to, okay, now in order to step into obedience in this relationship or this situation, I need to know even deeper truths about God. And so it brings you back to that knowledge part and then that leads to you learning new, deeper things about God, which leads then to experiencing more and more of realizing his love and his grace. A bigger picture of how holy God is, bigger picture of how heinous our sin is, a bigger picture of then his love and his grace on the cross, which then leads to an, a larger overflow, abundance of joy in following God and wanting to be more like him and transformed. And that leads again back around.
Matt:So, it's this this cycle of growth And and so that no level bay kinda captures that deepening relationship with Christ and following him.
Nick:And so here locally at Anthem, if we're saying discipleship in in our language, it's knowing Jesus, loving Jesus. It's, it's obeying him, doing the things he calls us to. How does the discipleship pathway help us walk towards Christ, through that?
Matt:Yep. Well, I'm gonna give you a sentence. I'm gonna quickly break down the component parts, and that's where we'll be able to kinda wrap things up.
Nick:Yeah.
Matt:We in starting this, it's because we believe that every disciple needs they need partners. K? So others in their life who help them develop a plan and practices that prepare for the power and presence of god through the various phases of life. Okay? So, every disciple needs partners who walk with them as they develop a plan and practices that prepare them for the power and presence of God through every phase of life.
Matt:Now you're not gonna see that whole sentence put on a wall, but that sentence allows me to Yeah. Break down the component parts. So first, partners. We need those who who walk with us. This partner is a English translation of the word koinonia from the Greek, which is where you see fellowship, community, all these different translations.
Matt:But it's the idea of partnering with one another, and and intentionally following Jesus. So we need that buttressing one another. And then so we wanna provide that with our group structure. Again, all these will be things we'll be talking about in the coming episodes. Then, next, we need a plan and practices.
Matt:These are gonna be coming up. We need a plan that helps us. Okay. God, what are you calling me to as a steward of your glory, in this life? What are the areas right now you want me to focus on and grow in?
Matt:So we wanna help you develop a plan, for taking those steps. And then the practices, those spiritual disciplines, those habits, that allow us to, that really allows to commune with God and, develop and cultivate faithfulness in us. And so what what are those practices? Mhmm. What are they?
Matt:How do I do them? How do I incorporate them into my life? I wanna help you take steps in that. And then and those things though, again, they're packing the kindling for the power and presence of God, the fire of God to come. God has to do that.
Matt:But we have to be faithful on our side, in that. And then that's through every phase of life. 1 of in a few episodes here, we'll talk about the different stages Yeah. Of the spiritual journey. And so there are various and, and so we wanna could say, needs change, and, and so we want to identify those because those are going to be important along the journey.
Matt:It's very different when you've just started following Christ. What discipleship looks like versus when you're 50 years in and let's say, you're you're at the place of losing a spouse, losing a parent Mhmm. Or just illness or aging. Those things, those can be very different. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Your concerns at different stages of life are different. Your worries, your pains, the things you grieve, from age 5 to 55, they're they're different.
Matt:Yep.
Nick:And so looking at those different phases of life is is important to to realize that discipleship can look different in those times, as well. So I think as we close, Matt, what what's something specific that just excites you as we're having this conversation talking about the discipleship pathway? Like like, what's just, yeah, churning in your heart, the passion with that? I am excited
Matt:about seeing the light bulb come on in terms of what it looks like to follow Jesus in areas of life that honestly before we assumed had nothing to do with our faith. So for instance, as I've already with quite a few individuals within the church here and at previous churches I've been a part of have walked through various forms of, like, for instance, the plan and help them seeing businessmen realize, in in various ways how what they do every day in their job from blue collar to white collar type jobs. Mhmm. Seeing that as part of their discipleship and how that's where God has really called them and how he uses them, just even those kind of areas, like, there and their marriage, all that. We we tend to make, like, here's this whole, like, the sacred secular divide.
Matt:Right. Like, here are all these spiritual things over here in church and I can serve in the church and it's just about that, verses in all of life. That is the exciting thing for me. I love seeing that. And so passionate about that.
Matt:I'm passionate about that for students to not think that, for instance, being discipled while they're in salt is just about because it's a farm leak for going on staff staff with salt one day when they graduate. No. Yeah. Or I have to be an overseas missionary. No.
Matt:You're sin. Right. We want you to be a disciple who is a contributing member to a local church, but you then are following Jesus. You know how to do it for a lifetime. You know how to be contributing to a local church, but you also know how to build a a healthy family, a healthy marriage.
Matt:You know how to, what your job, being an engineer, a teacher, or a salesman. What that has to do with. That is the part. What is my physical health, my emotional health? All these things.
Matt:Seeing people really realize that all of their life is meant to be something that God can touch and change. I I'm very excited about.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting to watch people who maybe didn't have vision for their day job suddenly have vision, and how that fits into their own discipleship and growth, but also how they can be a witness through, through, that role that they're playing, whether they're the the boss, the worker. It's, yeah, vital that we in each arena of our life have an understanding of, okay, what does it look like to be seeking after Christ in this aspect too? And and that's what discipleship is.
Nick:It's that surrender to him in all the categories of life. And so, yeah, I think for me, the the excitement is just like I've I've tried to walk faithfully with people and in discipleship relationships for years, and I've often hit points where I'm like, man, where do I walk with them next? Or or what else do they need to learn? Or Or or how else can I help them see Christ in scripture? Having a plan is gonna help me know how, to to keep bringing up those different categories of life, and walk them towards Christ in those ways.
Nick:And so, yeah, that's that's what I'm excited for as we, kinda continue our our time through these podcasts, through developing different, content and materials, for for the sake of, you know, this church, but lord willing for, years to come, it's gonna be a resource.
Matt:Yeah. Well, why don't I just close by painting a picture a little bit of the road ahead here. So we're gonna be covering in the coming episodes, things like what is why relationships are key. We're gonna actually talk about something that perhaps you've never thought about, which is the relational nature of the gospel. And and our us being relational beings, creating the image of God, but how the gospel is fundamentally about, reconciliation, relational reconciliation, and and what's what that has to do with discipleship.
Matt:Then we're gonna be hitting on those different stages of the spiritual journey. I think you're gonna love that and that's gonna provide a lot of language frameworks for thinking through, your life, those you love and are walking with. And then we're gonna start to get into, the plan. We're gonna break down the process of what a tool we call the steward script, and then we're gonna go into a tool we call the apprentice script. How do we develop those plans and practices?
Matt:We're gonna then talk about how to launch, how to how to think about which kind of group you should be in, like a small group, and what is our way forward in those, and then breaking down, kinda how to launch or be a part of those different kinds of groups. So lots of stuff, coming up that I think you'll find really helpful, really practical, and it's all so that it can help you take that next step in Christ.
Nick:Yeah. And so, really look forward to getting more time with you guys and unpacking those things.