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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take a
moment, a moment within this minute.
To simply pay gratitude
sounds simple, sounds
something that should be done.
And yet what I'm asking for is
a deep immersion in gratitude
to your body, to your heart, to
your mind, and also your spirit.
I'm asking you in this moment,
within this minute, to turn your
gratitude practice towards yourself.
And as you breathe in and breathe out,
watch what arises.
What leads?
Are they thoughts?
Is it the practice of gratitude
for this body, your body?
Does your emotional
heart take center stage?
Breathing in and breathing
out, immerse yourself in the
gratitude practice turned on you.
And as your active imagination and mind
and body wander, I invite you to fly with
your spirits, fly with the abundance of
gratitude for everything you have held.
Breathing in, watching
everything you have created.
Breathing out, simply watching
all that you have manifested
And now, in this present moment,
simply watch, witness, and feel
the gratitude circulate through
your spirit, through your body,
and shining through your heart.
Breathing in and breathing out, softening
and honoring what you are grateful for.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly Dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics,
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression, to finding
wholeness in spiritual emergence.
Today, I am welcomed and deeply honored
to introduce humbled to have Emma.
Emma, it's great to hear you.
How are you coming in?
Hi, it's great to be here.
I am coming in with excitement and a
lot of gratitude for this opportunity.
Yeah.
You and I have known each other
for a minute and we've worked a lot
through integration and healing.
We have.
Yes.
Yeah.
Tell me a little bit about what the word
psychedelic healing means to you in this
moment in your season that you're in.
It's funny, I almost forget that we we've
done like work regarding psychedelics,
because I mean initially that's, you know,
that was my motivation and contacting you.
And it's, but it's become so much
more than that, you know, the
goal was, you know, ultimately,
like, how do I feel better?
How do I, how do I have
more control over my life?
Or how, how do I accept life as it is
and really like delve into the gratitude?
I think, you know, it's a great
opening of, of, of focusing on
gratitude because that's, I'm
finding the key to a lot of like my
happiness and, and, and finding peace.
And I think psychedelics has just
become like a S a smaller portion of it.
Thank you for saying that.
It's so beneficial and I appreciate
it and it makes me want to dive into
everything but psychedelics, right?
So when I hear your voice and know
our relationship, it's almost kind
of an unspecific catalyst, right?
The psychedelics opened us into
something, but then now we get
to do everything else without it.
Yes, yeah, I think that's like,
a great way of describing it.
It opens up a bunch of things.
It opens up like, A door.
And then, , like through my like various
experiences, even before I met you, when I
felt more confused about what was opened.
And, and I think that's
what motivated my search.
You know, feeling lost because all of a
sudden, like after a session of, Whatever,
you know, medicine you're taking.
You get a lot of feelings, a lot
of thoughts, a lot of, a lot of
even parts of your, your body
that you, you, you can feel into.
And, and it's a very confusing time.
And like what to do with that confusion.
A lot of times people want to
like take more and go deeper.
And that might be, you
know, good for some people.
In my experience, it just, it just,
I've seen a lot of damage with
wanting more and more and more.
Thank you for that.
And I know the intimacy of the
wanting more and more and more in
our society is so loud right now.
So you bring such a breath of fresh air.
Speak to me about that recognition
of what one does with confusion
because I know I've been there too
is we have these radical expanded
states and then all of a sudden it's
like, how do I make sense of it?
How do you personally honor the confusion
and know that it's nothing to be Disarmed
by yeah, I mean Confusion is disorienting.
It's, it's, it makes you question
a lot of different things
and you want some guidance.
And so, and then who to
go to for that guidance.
is, is a, is a really important, like,
quest, and I think, I mean, I, sometimes
I feel like I got lucky for finding
the right people in my life but with
that said, like, I, I did come from,
like, a strict religious background,
so for a lot of the times, like, I,
I feel like I didn't have the best
guidance and now it's, it's, I mean,
looking back at my journey of, like,
of, like, what I did with the confusion,
it's, I At the end of the day, if I'm
feeling like I got some clarity, it's
kind of like trusting your own gut
and trusting, like, what feels good.
It's a balance of getting, like, the
right input from healers and people
who guide versus, like, what you don't.
what you feel on the
inside is good for you.
And like, kind of like
mixing those two together.
Yeah, I love that.
That, that alchemy, right?
So this idea of complete and utter
relationship, trust and building
rapport with the guides or with a
clinician, but also simultaneously
co creating your intuition and
making sure you're listening to it.
Yes.
Yeah.
And if, if you're like overloading
on the psychedelics and overloading
on the medicine, then it kind of like
muffles like, like that space where
you could find trust in yourself.
Because you're just, you're
just constantly getting so
much input from the medicine.
Where's the space to find the
clarity, like to find, to like figure
out what the confusion was about.
Like there, there just like
has to be breaks between.
There does have to be breaks and the
way you articulated that Emma is like
magical is this idea of the overload and
abundant information that any medicine
psychedelic or with healing provides us.
It's like where's enough to metabolize.
There's no room to metabolize it.
Transcribed Exactly.
I, and I think that what people,
what happens is that like you go
on a journey and you might get some
answers and those feel so good.
And you like have been craving that input,
you know, probably since childhood or,
or, or whatever you're working through.
And it feels good to have some clarity.
And so you want more of that.
But at the same time, you have to
recognize that like, even with the
answers, you're getting a lot of other
input too, that, that is just gonna kind
of like get too much if they're, if, if
you're, if you, you just keep going on, on
journeys with medicine and psychedelics.
Yeah.
And what's the emotion that you're getting
right now, as I see you really recognize
your place in your healing journey.
I'm, I'm, I'm really, again, I'm just
thankful that I've had, like, you know,
like, pretty good experiences with the
medicine, and I'm grateful that I was
able to recognize that, like, okay, like,
I need I need to like hold back for a
while and it's been a while since my
last you know, like session with with the
medicine, and I often think that like,
oh, I want to go back, but then I don't
like know there's so much more that I
still need to explore explore through.
Through meditation, through therapy,
through dream interpretation,
through even working out and yoga
and focusing on on on my body.
And so I think that that's
what's coming up for me.
It's just that.
I'm thankful that I was able to
take breaks because I recognize
now how important those are.
Yeah.
And to hear you talk about your
integration practice, I, I witnessed
something really remarkable, which
is you're emotionally integrating,
you're mentally integrating through
meditation, you're doing therapy,
you're doing dream analysis.
So touching into the
subconscious and then.
Holistically tapping into the body.
So intuitively you're integrating
your whole system and knowing
right now you don't need anymore.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's so important
to like, like your, your, your
body is a complicated system.
There, you know, you were, you have
your hormones and your neurotransmitters
and like how like food and diet
affect those things and like your
well being and your nervous system.
And so there's just so
many different avenues.
If you overload it with, with the
medicine, you're just ignoring
everything else your body can do for you.
It's, it's like this beautiful
vehicle to like get you to like,
like, like magical places really.
And it doesn't always have to
be just based on psychedelics.
Even though psychedelics are just,
I am so freaking grateful for them.
They have, like I said, open doors that
I just didn't imagine could be open.
Even like, you know, like studying
trauma and, and how to work with trauma.
And, and, you know, I was like huge nerd
before even being exposed to psychedelics.
I was, I didn't even drink alcohol.
So substances were not a
thing that I like focused on.
So like, if you had told me like 10
years ago, like you're going to be
working with medicine or you're going
to be like using it, I would have
been like, that's, that's insane.
But it, I can recognize the
power of it now and it's, it's
a beautiful, beautiful thing.
But so is like, So it was like your body
and the other things you can do with it.
Wonderfully said about something
undercurrent that I hear in
you is the devotion to consent.
So I know you and I share a specific
kind of religious backgrounds from
different secular perspectives,
but they were pretty strict.
And then we've also talked
about what our body is.
And is it accurate that I'm witnessing you
talk about your consensual relationship
to your healing practice now as well.
There's almost an undercurrent
of you get to make it your own.
Oh my gosh.
I think that's like, like what you've
said is a testament to the work we've
done together because I, you understand
what that, how important that is for me.
Because I think, you know, I,
I, I loved being religious.
It was because it provided so much peace
and comfort for me, like prayer was like,
it truly gave me a lot of peace but there
was this part where it was not consensual,
like there were these, you know, ideas
placed in my head about being a certain
way or I'm going to go to hell or Or
this is going to happen and you have to
act a certain way and you have to do a
certain thing and I didn't even realize
what a toll it was taking on my well
being until I realized, oh, I'm not giving
full consent to the life I'm living.
I'm not giving, this isn't like me.
When I navigated away from the religion
I was born in, it was a very difficult
time because you were, you're losing
something that gave you a lot of comfort
in trying to explore who you really are.
And it's been like, it's been a difficult
journey, but I'm, I'm so grateful for it.
And now I get to like, have practices
where I know this is, this is what I want.
I'm fully giving consent to, to my day,
to my morning, to what I, What gives
me like hope and comfort and peace.
And the thing with psychedelics is
that you're in an altered state and
oftentimes like, you know, you are with a
healer, a guide and trusting that guide.
There's a lot that goes into it.
And, and that consent, that
consensual like relationship is, is
going to be very, very important.
And emotionally what's coming
up right now, as you say that
with my witnessing in you.
Just I think it's like in, in the, in
the world of healing, you have a lot
of vulnerable people that go into it,
you know, a lot of trauma has happened
and people are looking for answers.
And sadly in the same spaces, you
will have other individuals that know
that this is a good population to take
advantage of and substances make it so
much easier to take advantage of people.
And it is.
Like, so important to balance the
medicine with the other resources,
so you have some, like, agency
going in to these spaces, you know?
Like, you, you can't just
rely on the medicine.
There has to be more going on to fall
back on if you do, if you are faced
with someone that is, like, you know,
taking the consent away from you.
Because it's, it could happen.
Yeah, and then it's a very important
subject matter to talk about and what
I know about you, Emma, and what we've
explored is this vigilance of having
conversation, doing the appropriate
integration, and also being honest
with what your expectations are.
One of the things I know about
you is you've shared, no,
this is what I want to do.
So once again, making it your
own without having to listen to
someone else's fabrication of
what they think is best for you.
Yeah.
And that's always been very hard
and it's still a work in progress.
You know, especially like being in
a religion where women have like a
very strict role of being a certain
way of doing things in a certain way.
And then it's like trying to find your own
voice was a very It took a lot of work.
It took a lot of work, but it's
been worth every, every, every
like ounce of what I put into it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm super grateful just witnessing
you and listening to you right now
is that that is gratitude that I
have in you is, you know, that you're
not abandoning yourself in this
moment by taking back your voice,
taking back what feels right to you.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's honestly like,
and I don't know if I wouldn't.
I don't know if it would have been,
like, this way if I didn't have, like,
if I wasn't introduced to psychedelics.
Because I know, like, therapy
without psychedelics can take,
can take a lot longer to do.
And.
I'm, I'm, I'm happy that like the medicine
was able to open those doors, and I don't
know if regular therapy would have got
me there in this way, it might have, I
might have like spent more resources.
So, It's a, it's a phenomenal
way of exploring yourself.
Would you reference a certain like
embodied experience or emotional
release or a just a cellular knowing
that you received from psychedelics
to open those doors that added
support to your therapy practice?
Do you think it was somatic release
or understanding that gave you more
access to being able to integrate more?
Like, did the psychedelics help
with the more of the somatic?
Yeah, did they tap into a different
aspect of your system or your
body that you weren't capable of
unpacking in traditional therapy?
Think the thing that comes up, I
don't know if it's like related
to, it's not so much like the,
what it was, it was my inner voice.
Is what, what, what was like brought
up through my first, like, you know,
journey and like my inner voice through
that, I was able to like, realize
what a mind body connection there is,
like what, like my, like focusing on a
relaxing my body was important for me
to like, feel that, that inner voice.
that's like, like guides me now.
And I heard you say guides you now,
so you're actively still tending
to that voice and listening to it.
Yeah.
It's kind of wild because like, I,
I mean my first like journey with
the medicine, I You know, like heard
that voice and I can, it's, it's
like psychedelics are so powerful.
They're so powerful.
I had this like first journey, like, I
don't know, 2019 and it's 2024 and I'm
still, things are still highlighted from
it in my, like, you know, in my routine
and, and I, I'm thankful that I was able
to like meet you and like other resources.
So I can like.
manage these thoughts and feelings that
come up, have come up and really like
channel that inner voice to like, to, to
heal me versus like, make me go crazy.
Really?
Like that's what the other side
of it is, is that I, and in my
like work as well, I've seen what
substances have done to people.
And like, I like, you know, personally
experienced a loved one at be by it and
like literally lose control of his life.
And So there's so much that
can like unfold with it.
And I kind of like got to see how
powerful it was within my own body.
Yeah.
And I'm, I'm humbled by your share
and your personal transparency because
Walking with grief and loss and addiction.
It is a razor's edge.
And we need to publicly service that
conversation of just because these
are perceived as medicines now, or
the language is, Oh, they're healing.
There's definitely an undercurrent of
shadow that the hungry ghost or the
addictive personality can take on.
And that really, it's almost a spiritual
bypassing, which can lead us to psychosis.
Losing her life.
All of it.
Like you're touching parts of a psyche
that like could, like the medicine can
go in and like heal you, but it can also
go in and do Other things as well and
those things are can get you so out of
control that like modern medicine won't
like is not going to be able to cure it
or like, you know, a lot of damage can
happen, whether it's like psychosis or
death or other types of destruction.
It can all come from psychedelics.
It's like, it is.
Related to the use of this medicine
inappropriately, and it's very real and
we have to recognize we have to recognize
that it's your your the medicine is going
into a system that can go either way.
It can heal you.
It can cause destruction.
It's, it's it's.
It's all related.
It sure is.
Thank you for that.
How do you differentiate when
it's appropriate to use it or to
touch into your skills that are
actively being present in your
body and your heart right now?
How do you inventory?
Because I know you do such
a wonderful job integrating.
What's kind of the tells that says,
Hey, Emma, it's great to see you.
Potentially time to
recalibrate with medicine.
That's a really good question
because I almost forgot that it's
been such a challenge for me.
It's, it's, I, I, you know, I
feel like I'm in a good place
and I feel so grateful for that.
But like, it's not always been this way.
I have taken the medicine and felt
like, Oh, is this good for me?
Like, I feel, I don't feel good.
Like this doesn't feel good.
This is not a good feeling.
Like I want to be off of it immediately
or I'm never doing this again.
Mm hmm.
And so, and I, I'm definitely
would categorize myself as a nerd.
And so like, before even going into it,
like educating yourself completely, like,
you know, there's, there are a good number
of resources out there now to do that.
So to understand like what.
What substance you're putting
in under there's such a variety
of psychedelics available.
So like, what are you taking just because
your friend had this experience with with
mushrooms doesn't mean you're going to
have even the same with mushrooms and and
then like with other psychedelics, it's
going to be much different and really
understanding like That you're the set
and setting matters like who you're with
matters like what happened and also like
you need to be mindful of your genetics
to you need to be mindful of your family
history of like what's occurred like in
your, you know, biological parents like
your family like, is there a mental is
there a history of mental illness like
which what's like, which psychedelics are
going to bring that out and, like, I, you
know, like, people in their early 20s.
It's like, that's a prime
time for psychosis to emerge.
And so I wouldn't recommend
people to do, try it.
And like when they're still
forming, like, you know, their
sense of self and all of that.
So, I, I feel like I'm, I'm
diverging from the original question.
It's super, you know you're not diverging,
you're not diverging at all and I'm really
grateful that you went down this route
as, you're, you're saying that there's
a reason for doing it and I'm hearing
an intentionality of it and what you're
recognizing is I'm doing so well that I
don't realize how well I'm doing until now
I'm like, oh this is how far you've come.
I'm hearing.
Yeah.
Literally understand with the
spontaneity of the psychedelics,
all the work in between them.
You're also advocating, Hey, you
might not need this right away.
That's my challenge too, right?
Is everybody's wanting to do
it because it's super trendy.
And I'm like, well, you better
check your mental health.
You better check what has, what, what
skills in your toolbox are working
right now, like what, what are
working and what needs sharpening.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
I think that's the part I was forgetting
is that like, Oh, I, I put all, I
tried to do everything I could to put
some tools in the toolbox, even though
I felt so lost when I attempted to,
you know, go on a medicine journey.
And that's why people come, right?
They want answers and they
want something out of it.
And, but you have to be prepared.
You, you like going into it
blindly and just like focusing on.
This one, like, like the medicine is one
tool and you have to see it as one tool.
There are so many other things that
go before it, during it, and after it.
And that is like, I think the, the
key message and it should not be like
the only thing to rely on, even if
it does bring you answers right away.
Cause it will, it's going
to fricking open you up.
It is going to, it's important is
that beginning and after, as well
as everything, like, Even going,
okay, I thought about it and then
almost building a plan and then the
double plan and then recognizing,
well, maybe the medicine isn't even
something I need right now to unpack.
And I know when I share a relationship
to grief and loss, it's like, last
thing I needed is MDMA journey
to unpack my grief and loss.
Sometimes it's just like being
in the season of grief and loss
purely without any adulteration.
Right, exactly.
The pain of like grief and loss is
like, it's so intense and, and you
feel it at parts of your body that you
didn't even know existed, you know, it
goes in deep and it's like, and it's
like, We want, you know, we're, we're
raised in cultures where like alcohol
is used to avoid that type of pain.
So like when you think of
substances and like, you might get
a little higher, like get a little
relief from certain substances.
So you, you don't want it to become a
thing of avoiding what the core issue is.
Like you, you want to face
what the core issue is and like
listening to your body again.
Let's like, there's just
so many different avenues.
That you can use to like, target what the,
what the main issue is and like, like take
a step back, like, is another medicine
journey going to help you with that?
Or are there still more things
to explore from the last journey?
I love everything about
that because it's so true.
The purity of feeling it on a deeper
level means the world, especially
in those emotional sectors.
Can you tell me, Emma, what you're
doing to be gentle with yourself?
You know it's my favorite question.
How are you patiently
walking with gentleness?
I, I just love stretching.
It's, I absolutely love it.
It's my favorite thing to do.
And then listening to the
right music while I'm doing it.
And it just gets you into this
meditation and your body just
knows your body knows so much.
And it's a beautiful thing to focus on it.
Simple, simple stretch and
listen to some nice jams.
Yes.
I'm humbled by you and your insight
and wisdom is a breath of fresh air.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate being here.