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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:06)
today we're talking about some of the best and worst communities we've been in. Because I feel like last time we talked about the world is shit. How do we like get over the overwhelm? And one of the things we talked about was like,
staying connected to your community and like making decisions for yourself even about little things. And so I feel like today's topic of like some of the best communities we've been in might be a good follow-up to that conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:34)
Yeah, sometimes it's easier said than done, We talk a lot of
Taina Brown she/hers (00:36)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:37)
community becomes kind of a buzzword, like so many things feel like buzzwords
Taina Brown she/hers (00:39)
for sure. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:41)
after a while where they start to lose their meaning because people use it so much and so freely
Taina Brown she/hers (00:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:45)
for things that aren't necessarily communities. Because communities often use to describe in the business space is used to describe memberships, which are a
Taina Brown she/hers (00:54)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:54)
paid space, and those can be community or they can also be not community, even though they are groups of people. A group of people does not necessarily
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. They could just be a
network. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:04)
Exactly.
A group of people does not necessarily make a community. And so I'm curious too, just this just coming to me, but I think it'd be interesting to talk quickly too about what makes something feel like community to you. And maybe there's examples inside that that you can bring up,
Taina Brown she/hers (01:14)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:16)
but what makes something a community? And I'll I'll start by saying I think shared vision for culture making. So what is the culture we're creating here? What do we want to create?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:23)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:26)
are we all on the same page about creating that kind
of culture in
Taina Brown she/hers (01:29)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:29)
this space together? Feels like
part of what community means. So I have my son's school community, which might not be the community for all the needs of my life, but
Taina Brown she/hers (01:40)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:41)
the people that I'm that I want in that space are the people who have a shared vision for creating a particular kind of culture within our school and the the students that are in that experience and all that. So
Taina Brown she/hers (01:51)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:51)
that to me is com community versus a space where everyone's just there to take. Although that could also I guess fit my definition, couldn't it, if we're all
just here to to extract from each other. But anyway,
Taina Brown she/hers (02:03)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:04)
I'm cu I'm curious what your initial thoughts are on like what makes something feel like community versus just like us a group of people.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:07)
Yeah, how do you define that? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I like your definition of like a shared vision for a space because I think that also brings to or it brings to my mind anyway, the idea that like there there can be or there usually are, and like different communities for different things, right? Like we shouldn't necessarily be trying to get all of everything from one particular community. And so I think the only exception to that that
I would make is in terms of like feeling like you can get everything you need from what community are like the people that you would like like your ride or guys, right? Like the people that are just like and even but but even then like your school, your school community, right? Like you can't
Becky Mollenkamp (02:47)
'Cause was gonna say I don't think so. Well
Taina Brown she/hers (02:50)
necessarily like you can get maybe you can brainstorm ideas, you can, you know, talk about things, you can vent if you need to, but they're like your friend's kids might not necessarily be
in the same school as your child. So it's not necessarily like like you still have the same goals for like school in a broader sense, but maybe not
Becky Mollenkamp (03:07)
Well my
Taina Brown she/hers (03:10)
like in a more specific sense.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:11)
in my mind, because obviously my like my husband is my ride or die, right? Like I hope 'cause I hope we're together till we, you know, one of us dies and him first. No, just kidding. But yeah, I mean, even with that, I think that is to me, some of that's that romanticized idea that any one person can be your everything, or that any one person should be
your everything. So
Taina Brown she/hers (03:29)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:30)
even if my partner is my ride or die and like
could potentially give me everything I need, I wouldn't want that to be the case. Like I don't want to put that responsibility on him. So that's right. So that's
Taina Brown she/hers (03:38)
Yeah. Well yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't
mean like your partner. I mean like your close, close group of people, like outside
Becky Mollenkamp (03:46)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:46)
of your partner. So maybe there's like like three or four people, right, come to mind for me immediately. And so and me and Mello, like we joke about this all the time because like I feel like I have a very like I have I I know a lot of people and I have a lot of friends.
Right, like when you're in your 40s, by by this point, you've you've made a lot of friends, and so for most people anyway, but like I feel like I have like a very, very small group of friends that I can count on one hand that I would consider soulmates, like platonic soulmates, and those are the people that I know without a shadow of a doubt are like my ride or dies, like
Because of the experiences, the shared experiences that we've had. And so outside of my spouse, those are the three people that I would venture to say that if there was a community for me that I felt like I could get most, if not all of my needs met, it would be among those four people, my spouse and those like three or four friends, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (04:46)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:46)
That that have just that that I feel like are are soulmates of mine. Like
Becky Mollenkamp (04:50)
Well and they've probably proven themselves to you too, right? So there's trust,
Taina Brown she/hers (04:53)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:54)
which makes me think a little bit about in the same way that community is kind of a buzzword, so is this idea of like safe spaces or whatever
Taina Brown she/hers (05:00)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:00)
and that so many people are trying to create safe spaces, quote unquote, as part of their community building efforts,
Taina Brown she/hers (05:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:07)
or i in many pl many cases it's just like it's a membership of of like
Taina Brown she/hers (05:11)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:13)
people that get together and for some reason and this idea that you have that a
space has to be a safe space to be community. You have
Taina Brown she/hers (05:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:21)
to feel safe inside of it to be a community. I don't know that I necessarily agree with that. I think what you're saying is and what I agree with you on is like there are levels and types of communities. The the thing that makes it a community is that we have this shared vision, that we are all
Taina Brown she/hers (05:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:35)
invested in some similar outcome together, whether that's
Taina Brown she/hers (05:38)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:38)
like
The safety of the five people inside of this or
Taina Brown she/hers (05:42)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:42)
the changing of the entire world or, you know, a better community for our kids in school or whatever the thing is.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:45)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:48)
But the degree of safety you have inside of that community can vary as well. So like with
Taina Brown she/hers (05:53)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:53)
your closest people, you could probably feel you're safe, you could be safe to be your full, vulnerable, true self.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:58)
And then other communities, maybe you aren't as safe. And it's not necessarily even because it's something they do, but just because that's that community is serving a particular need
for you. Like
Taina Brown she/hers (06:07)
Purpose, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:08)
I don't think
I have to feel inherently safe and outside of every space I'm in for it to still be a community I may want to be a part of or a community
Taina Brown she/hers (06:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:16)
that is still serving some function in my life. So I just think I think that's something important for people to think about because I think so often in the business space, we see people talking about community, trying to build quote unquote communities, whether they actually are communities or not. And they're thinking about how do we make this a safe space for everyone? And that may not be the goal. Like the goal might be
Taina Brown she/hers (06:32)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:35)
starting with just the basic question of.
What is the point of this space? And what is the shared
Taina Brown she/hers (06:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:41)
goal that we're attain trying to attain here? And then what does it need what do we need for the people that we want to be a part of that goal to make them feel like they want to be a part of this community? And I think
Taina Brown she/hers (06:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:52)
some degree of safety may may be a part of that, right? But safety also comes with trust. Going back to like your
Taina Brown she/hers (06:56)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:56)
ride or dies, the reason you feel that level of safety is because you they've probably proven to you again and again and again that you can,
Taina Brown she/hers (07:02)
Yeah.
And I think it's also just less about safety and more about feeling held, Even when it
Becky Mollenkamp (07:06)
Longing.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:07)
does when it doesn't feel safe, right? Like
Becky Mollenkamp (07:09)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:09)
knowing that in that space, whether you feel safe or not, that there still is space for you, that the people are gonna hold you in those feelings. Because I think, you know, when we're talking about what it what do what does it mean to feel safe? Like there's so many layers to that that
There's physical safety, there's emotional safety, there's mental safety, right? And so I think when we're talking about safety in a community, like because we are human beings and each and every one of us carries so much baggage and trauma, we're not always gonna feel 100% safe. I don't feel 100% safe just in my house when it's just me by myself sometimes. So like how right?
Becky Mollenkamp (07:44)
Well, so that's when I feel the least safe.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:47)
So like how can I expect to feel safe all the time in a space with other people? Like
It just that that's that's a that's an unrealistic expectation. And so I think
Becky Mollenkamp (07:57)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:57)
the goal is not necessarily safety in community, but like feeling like or or knowing that even if you don't feel safe, that there's space for you to like be brave beyond feeling safe, right? That you can still
Becky Mollenkamp (08:10)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:11)
show up and be yourself. And I think what you said about like so many in terms of like
businesses who try to create communities, right? Like whether it's a business or a nonprofit or or a school, right? I think that's just a really interesting take because like you obviously, well not obviously, but you and I know this, but not everybody who's listening or or who who might be following along might know this. But like like we host a community, Of coaches. And so this idea of like making it safe for everyone, like
I don't want our space to be safe for everyone. I don't want someone who's racist or homophobic or transphobic or, you know, believes that billionaires should exist. I don't want them to feel safe in the space that you and I are creating because that the space that we're making is not for those kinds of people. That's not values aligned for us. And so And that's not necessarily
Becky Mollenkamp (09:01)
Well that's a
Taina Brown she/hers (09:02)
saying that I want people to feel like
threatened by us, but you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:07)
Well, that's interesting because that th we've never talked about this, so I find this super fascinating because I think what does safe even mean, right? Because yeah, I I want them to feel safe. As in, I wouldn't want anyone to think that there would be physical harm that would come to them by
Taina Brown she/hers (09:20)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:21)
being in a space that I host. I don't want them to feel comfortable. I don't want them
Taina Brown she/hers (09:24)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:25)
and I think which we mean the same thing, which is I don't want them to feel safe to espouse ideas that are hateful
Taina Brown she/hers (09:29)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:30)
and harmful and think that those ideas will be held
will be coddled to, catered to,
Taina Brown she/hers (09:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:35)
that their their feelings around how they may be received will be tended to if they're saying things that are hurtful. So like I wouldn't want the and I guessing again, that's why safe is a nebulous word, because what does it mean? Right? And what's
Taina Brown she/hers (09:46)
Yeah, and a
lot of people usually when they say safe or safe spaces, they usually mean comfortable. Like that's that's
Becky Mollenkamp (09:51)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:52)
what that's what people perceive it to mean, right? Because of the
Becky Mollenkamp (09:56)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:56)
way that like
Becky Mollenkamp (09:57)
Well and and let's be clear, Taina, I think you what you really mean is that's how a lot of people with privilege perceive it to mean. To be fair. Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:03)
Right, right. Because the because that's so that's the way the world is set up, right? It's
set up for for comfort and convenience. And so we equate like our minds just like equate that with safety. So the more comfort and convenience you have, the safer you feel. This is why like we I mean, I I've mentioned this before, but like my wife and I we watch true crime docs like every Friday, like and we've been doing that for like I think a year now or something, and we're alwa we're not we're not always, but
We're not always surprised, but we do always talk about how when it comes to white people on these documentaries, whether it's 2020 or Dateline or Netflix stock or whatever, who suffer through something, some kind of traumatic experience, a loved one gets killed or kidnapped or raped or tortured, whatever the case may be, they're always so surprised that it's happened to them. And a lot of times when you
Watch these things, it's not necessarily nowadays, but maybe a decade ago and older, like you'll hear newscasters or journalists or people doing the interviews or people being interviewed that were part of the experience saying, This wasn't supposed to happen here. This is a safe community, nothing like this has ever happened here. We never thought this could happen. And it's because of the insulation of their privilege, right? That
Becky Mollenkamp (11:23)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:24)
creates that sense of.
Safety that comes with comfort and convenience. They never thought it could happen to them. That's why they don't lock their doors at night, right? That's why they don't put
Becky Mollenkamp (11:33)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:33)
curtains on their windows, right? Like or blinds or whatever. And it's because they feel safe because of the comfort and the convenience of privilege. Whereas if you talk to or go through a neighborhood that is majority non-white, you will see curtains and blinds on the windows, right? Because we most of us or
Becky Mollenkamp (11:50)
Or bars.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:51)
bars, most of us understand that like.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:53)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:54)
Even if you own a home, like even if you have a certain level of privilege, of comfort and convenience, that doesn't always equate to safety. And to think that it does, you do that at your own detriment because it's not guaranteed.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:06)
Well and and that's
that's largely physical safety, which is a big part of this
Taina Brown she/hers (12:10)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:11)
equation as well. And then there's also this other part around quote unquote emotional safety, which white people in particular, men also, often e confound or conflate, that's what I want, their
Taina Brown she/hers (12:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:21)
emotional safety with comfort. And so they
Taina Brown she/hers (12:24)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:24)
think as soon as they're feeling uncomfortable, someone challenges them some way, pushes back, push
Taina Brown she/hers (12:28)
That that's the
threat.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:29)
that that is now they're no longer safe in this situation. And you
Taina Brown she/hers (12:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:32)
will this often among white women. It's what manifests as white women's tears frequently, which is this like, I don't feel safe anymore. You're mi you're and
Taina Brown she/hers (12:39)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:40)
that and this is where we get the like angry black woman trope or you know the the hostility of black women, all these
Taina Brown she/hers (12:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:45)
sorts of things that we hear. And it's because white women are feeling unsafe, quote unquote, because a black woman is challenging her on some microaggression or macroaggression,
Taina Brown she/hers (12:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:55)
some racist thing she's done. And she now doesn't feel
Comfortable, right? Because
Taina Brown she/hers (12:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:00)
this person's no longer catering catering to her emotional needs, centering her emotional needs in the situation,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:06)
making everything, making sure she feels loved, coddled to, catered to, cared
Taina Brown she/hers (13:09)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:10)
for, all of that. And so now she's feeling uncomfortable. And we we white women have been very deeply conditioned to believe that our comfort equals our safety. And that is just not true. Just not true. We we've been
Taina Brown she/hers (13:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:23)
made to believe that, but it's simply not true. Like you can be challenged.
And still be a hundred percent safe. Cause what you're talking about there is physical safety. And yes,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:33)
pre people with privilege take that for advantage or for granted
as well. But what's
Taina Brown she/hers (13:35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:37)
funny is that we start to believe our emotional safety is paramount or similar to is our physical safety. And it they are so completely different, right? And that
Taina Brown she/hers (13:41)
It's the same, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they are.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:46)
is the problem that we have a lot of times and spaces is when people who don't understand these things and who hold a lot of privilege are creating
community, quote unquote community, some sort of membership, some sort of space where people will gather. And they become very concerned about making sure everyone feels safe. And this
Taina Brown she/hers (14:01)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:02)
going to, because this is a perfect lead into some of the things we want to talk about, just some the spaces we've been in, what this will often manifest into is a space where a white woman who is feeling uncomfortable because she's being challenged on something she's done ends up being catered to in the name of safety. Well we
Taina Brown she/hers (14:19)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:19)
want to make ever we need to make sure everyone here feels safe.
So we're gonna shut down this person who is calling out an injustice, who is who is naming a harmful practice. We're gonna make them now be quiet because this other person who's been named or called out is feeling uncomfortable but saying it's a safety issue. So white women
Taina Brown she/hers (14:37)
Hm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:38)
will use this language a lot to say, well, I don't feel safe here. I'm not feeling safe. When what she really means is I'm not comfortable because I've been called out for something I've done
Taina Brown she/hers (14:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:46)
or said.
And I don't feel I don't feel safe, quote unquote. So I don't feel
Taina Brown she/hers (14:49)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:49)
comfortable. And so the people in the space, because they've now learned this sort of buzz phrase around safety, are concerned about creating the safe space. So they will immediately start to say, we have to shut this down. So because
Taina Brown she/hers (14:56)
Mm-hmm. my god, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:00)
because someone doesn't feel safe. Instead of allowing for people to be challenged, people to be uncomfortable, because that's not the same as people being unsafe, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (15:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:09)
And so that is the and then I can in my head hear people say, yeah, well.
somebody's not unsafe because we're having a con conversation as an example about trans issues and I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (15:18)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:19)
saying that I don't think trans women are women. That's not making that person unsafe. So how is that any different than if she's calling calling me out
Taina Brown she/hers (15:25)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:25)
saying I'm being you know, I'm being transphobic and and whatever by saying that? Like why are you
Taina Brown she/hers (15:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:32)
trying to shut me down? Why is that unsafe for her that person on the other side of the conversation
Taina Brown she/hers (15:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:37)
not for me? And to that I would say because
you're talking about something that can actually manifest into actual physical harm for that person
Taina Brown she/hers (15:43)
Harm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:45)
that is not the same. That doesn't exist for people who are transphobes and the same for any of the other oppressions. So
Taina Brown she/hers (15:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:52)
anyway, thoughts because that's what I think and I have been inside of communities where I've seen this happen more than once.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. I mean, and and you know, you know, just kind of expounding on your example of, you know, someone being transphobic in a community space against someone who might be trans. there's there's the power differential, right? That a lot of people just throw out the window in spaces like that. And so
The like you said earlier, like safe is like this buzzword. And so as soon as people hear it, they just like panic and they just want to like fix it as opposed to allowing themselves to be curious about what is actually happening in that moment. Because the truth of the matter is like
Usually they're they're like when people when when white women, especially in the scenarios that that you talked about, like there is a threat, but it's not to a person's safety. It's to their privilege, right? What they're feeling is a threat to their privilege, not to their safety. And they're conflating it, as you said, as a threat to their safety, where those are two different things, right? If your privilege is threatened, that's not going to cause you any harm. If your safety is threatened, that will cause you harm.
Right. But again, because of the way that we the society that we live in and the way that our culture perceives comfort and convenience, those two things kind of get like flattened into each other as opposed to people being able to see like that there's a clear difference, right? There might be some overlap, right? There might be a vent diagram in there somewhere, but for the most part, those are two different things, right? Your privilege being
being threatened versus your your emotional or your or you or or your physical safety, right? Those are two different things. Like w if your privilege is threatened, that there might be some emotional turmoil there, some things that you might have to come to terms with, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your emotional safety is at risk just because your privilege is being threatened. That just means, like you said, you're you're fucking uncomfortable, right? And so in situations like that is so important in communities.
regardless of what the function of that community is, to be curious and to ask questions, right? When as soon unless there is like an obvious threat, like physical or emotional threat to someone, then the question is not, okay, how do we turn this into a more safe space? The question is like what's actually being threatened here? Like what
Becky Mollenkamp (18:11)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:12)
is actually happen happening beyond the surface of what everyone is seeing, right? To like ask more questions.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:19)
Well and I could go back just speaking specifically to like things we've encountered or experienced. And I think twenty sixteen was a big time of this and then we saw it again in twenty twenty. It's probably happened, it will happen again for every election, but those two in particular, those two s elections national election cycles, there were a lot of people white women. And I'm part of this is because I live in a world the online business space where I work op I operate mostly in spaces with women, not white women anymore. However, that has not always been the case.
and so, but because I don't know as much what's happening in the white male world or any part of the male world by design. But I would imagine similar things probably happened. But I can name at least a few big name people, big name sort of white coaches, online educators who host spaces at the I think in the twenty sixteen it would have been largely Facebook groups, 2020 maybe a little less so. I think some of these might have been happening inside of Slacks or
communities, whatever, where people are hosting these online spaces to talk about their courses that they sell or to let people come together and, you know, talk about whatever programs they offer. And again, this is where is that community or is that just a space you're hosting for people to reflect on your co
Taina Brown she/hers (19:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:33)
and really a a place for you to try and and sell more. But sometimes they call it group coach group coaching or whatever. Anyway, there are at least a few high profile white women coaches.
in those election cycles, who got caught up in this situation where they host c quote unquote communities. And then conversations were happening on a global, national level, global level. Nine in 2016 around Trump. A lot of that was around women because that was the grabber and the pussy era, right? So and the then the pussy
Taina Brown she/hers (19:59)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:59)
hats and sort of this rise again of white feminism sort of showing up trying to like
Maximize on the time and then sort of again shutting out black women's voices in that conversation, all of that. And then in 2020, because of COVID, because of George Floyd, a lot of things happening there that was probably even more specifically like
Taina Brown she/hers (20:16)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:16)
conversations happening around race and racial reckoning. But in both cases, there were times where there were these white coaches who were hosting spaces. And suddenly the conversation, as happens inside community, started to talk about what's happening in the world around them.
Right. It was like, we're not talking just about my course anymore, guys. We're not just talking about business anymore. We're talking about these big issues that are happening and affecting your world as business owners, as humans. So they still relate.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:39)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:40)
But these white women, as soon as somebody would one white woman would get upset because some black woman called her in or called her out on some behavior or words, she would cry foul. And then the what the typical response by these white women coaches is they shut it down. And what they say,
Taina Brown she/hers (20:55)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:56)
and here's this is the part I want to get to.
The language they almost always use is we don't talk politics here. That's our new rules, new politics in this space. And I have seen this time and again. Where white women's answers to these kinds of things when they are hosting these communities and it gets beyond their skill set with hosting community and with understanding how to have delicate conversations among people to allow people to be challenged.
Their answer is always we don't do politics because they think that kind of shuts down anything related to race, anything related to sexism,
Taina Brown she/hers (21:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:25)
anything related to, you know, elections and how those affect our lives. And of course, you and I both our answers to that would be everything's politics. Obviously, we just did a whole series about everything is politics.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:36)
But I do find that that tends to be this answer is we'll just shut it by down down by saying we don't do politics here. And I and this continues to happen.
I see it all the time. And I've been in spaces where I've seen that happen. And what that does ultimately is silences voices that are usually with the least privileged, right? So it's typically
Taina Brown she/hers (21:54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:56)
it's leaving the loudest, most privileged, whitest voices to kind of continue to rant and rave in their ways, and shutting down all the other voices. And
Taina Brown she/hers (22:05)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:06)
that is not what a community looks like. A community
Taina Brown she/hers (22:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:09)
is not a community where we say, to me anyway.
It can be part of the ground rules. I guess I'll go back to we have a shared vision for the culture we're creating and the problem
Taina Brown she/hers (22:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:18)
we're trying to solve. And it could be that the community all agrees there are certain things that we don't want to talk about here because we know that that could cause ch strife amongst us and take us away from the goal that we're all trying to achieve. Right? I could see that.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:31)
Perhaps, right? But that has to be established at the beginning. And this is the problem.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:34)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:35)
Inside of these spaces, these rules aren't established. And politics is too
Bra you can't say that. Yeah,
Taina Brown she/hers (22:40)
Vague. It's so vague.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:42)
you can't just say we're gonna talk about politics. What does actually mean?
Taina Brown she/hers (22:44)
Because
anything, first of all, if everything is politics, then anything can be politics, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (22:47)
Right. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:49)
So then as soon as someone says, that feels political, regardless of whether or not or how political it is, it can get shut down, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (22:56)
Exactly.
And if it's not something everyone agreed to at the time of saying, I want to be a part of this space, typically a space I've paid for, right? Then that
Taina Brown she/hers (23:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:04)
also causes a lot of problems, which is where I've seen people
Taina Brown she/hers (23:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:07)
having to say, Okay, I will let you have your money back, or people walking away feeling I've spent money and I wasn't seen, I wasn't heard, I wasn't held,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:14)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:16)
I was pushed out. And what does that do for you? So I
Taina Brown she/hers (23:19)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:19)
part of me to this is like, don't start a community.
a a membership or space until you start to really understand what's involved. Cause I think people think it's as simple as let's get as many people to let
Taina Brown she/hers (23:29)
Let's just get people in the same room.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:31)
me get as many people as I can to pay me. Let's be honest, because in the business space that's what it means. Let me get many people as I can to pay me. And then it'll be fine. Like honestly,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:38)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:39)
I think that's as far as most people think. And I'll be honest, like in the beginning of my own probably a decade ago,
I mean, I didn't think exactly that way, but it wasn't far from that. It I mean it was I was conscious always about who are the people I want in the room, the kinds of voices I want, but I certainly didn't have the understanding I have now around culture making and shared expectations and understandings. And that's that can be dangerous.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's really important to like establish up front so people know what they're getting themselves into, right? Like that needs to be super clear. And if at any point that changes, then that needs to be like an announcement that's made, right? it doesn't need to be like, we just made a decision on the fly because somebody was uncomfortable or it's because somebody, you know, whatever, like just
Becky Mollenkamp (24:25)
With
Taina Brown she/hers (24:25)
made a fuss.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:26)
with an option for like harm repair, which in that case would look like a way
Taina Brown she/hers (24:28)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:29)
for people to say, I no longer this doesn't feel right for me anymore and a way to exit
Taina Brown she/hers (24:32)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:34)
gracefully and w hopefully with both sides still feeling good about the experience.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:37)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And that's and that is an approach, right? That like that is is rooted in a lot of like restorative justice or transformative justice types of methodologies, right? Creating a a a a path towards harm repair, creating a path towards restoring the relationship or keeping the relationship as intact as possible.
Right, if if every party involved is willing, as opposed to just being like, no, we're just gonna cut it out and we're just never gonna talk about this again, right? Because then that
Becky Mollenkamp (25:10)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:11)
does create harm. That does create harm because for someone whose life is extremely political, right? And I'm not talking about myself here, although I I could use myself as an example, but just hypothetically, right, in in the scenario for a black trans woman who's a part of a quote unquote community.
And you know, someone might make something that is or say something or do something that's transphobic, and then that person might get called out, and now all of a sudden the transphobic person is like, I don't feel safe. And it's like, okay, well, we don't talk politics here. Well, for that trans person, their entire life is political. So when you say that, what you're essentially communicating is your experience doesn't matter. Like the safety,
Becky Mollenkamp (25:50)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:51)
the comfort of this person matters more than what your experience, what we can potentially learn from your experience.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:56)
100%. Yeah,
because in those same communities, the number of times I see again where groups of white women love to talk about sexism. So they are happy in these same spaces I have seen where you're not all you're not supposed talk politics, but
Taina Brown she/hers (26:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:11)
they're totally fine to talk about sexism when it's
pretty blatant clear sexism inside the
Taina Brown she/hers (26:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:17)
i you know, even if it's as it relates to the workspace. Again, sexism is as political as is racism or transphobia or any of these other things, right? Exactly. But
Taina Brown she/hers (26:25)
It's all connected. It's all pipes, as George
Costanza said once.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:30)
But
white women like to sort of pull that out and be like, well, we're talking about sexism, and this is a more this affects all of us because we're all women, right? So like often this happens inside spaces that are for predominantly for women or or only for women. And they'll say, Well, sexism affects us all. Transphobia is a totally different thing, and it's political because not everyone agrees, or you know, there's a lot of different feelings on these issues.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:48)
Ven.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:48)
And and and sometimes people will even use the like, and I'm not enough of an expert to understand it. So this will come up a lot around specifically around Israel and Gaza as well and Palestine.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:55)
Yeah. yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:58)
You see that one a lot. And I've been guilty of this in the past too. So, like the hands in the air that I'm like, I I don't know enough and I'm not an expert
Taina Brown she/hers (27:01)
Yeah, same, same. It was like, Well, I don't know all the details, so I'm just gonna stay out of it, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:06)
here. And so but but again, then this is where we have to be really mindful as people who are hosting or entering communities to understand who are the people that are helming the space or who am I inviting into the space because
I could cause real harm if I've now welcomed people who are welcomed in Zionists into a space with people who are very anti-Zionism and these two things become very challenging with each other.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:29)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:32)
And if I'm not willing to take any kind of stand, where does that put me and
Taina Brown she/hers (27:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:37)
and managing this? I will ultimately there will be people who are probably going to have who are going to experience harm. And it is my job
Taina Brown she/hers (27:44)
huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:44)
as the person hosting that space to understand that and to be prepared for how
Taina Brown she/hers (27:46)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:47)
I'm gonna deal with that harm. And if I haven't thought about that.
Then I could end up harming both people,
right? Where I could have prevented
Taina Brown she/hers (27:51)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:53)
that harm by first having a clear policy around where do we stand on this issue. And if you don't feel comfortable on that issue, then should you be having a community where you have anyone in that space? Because there's
Taina Brown she/hers (28:02)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:02)
gonna be people, whether they are from Israel or not, or from Palestine
Taina Brown she/hers (28:05)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:06)
or not, are gonna have really strong feelings about these issues, right? And so anyway, yeah, I think it's just important. have there been s
Taina Brown she/hers (28:08)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:12)
communities you've been in that have done things well? I mean, we're talking a lot about all the bad stuff, but what are the things that do things where the
Taina Brown she/hers (28:14)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:17)
communities have done it well?
Taina Brown she/hers (28:18)
Yeah. So I I will say this, and this is something that you and I have talked about offline, but like it hit me a few months ago that like both you and I have had a lot of experience in different communities, right? Being a part of communities, creating communities, helping to build communities, and you know, some of that comes with age, you know, like we're we're
Becky Mollenkamp (28:37)
We're old.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:38)
both we're old, we're both middle aged, right? And but also
Becky Mollenkamp (28:41)
I'm past middle
age, but go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:44)
But also I think both of our val like both of our value sets are geared in such a way that we gravitate towards communities that that function in a very specific way. And so, so a lot of the communities that I've been a part of have not been business communities. They've been what some people would call like affinity communities, right? So like
Becky Mollenkamp (29:04)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:04)
of communities based on specific interests or specific
values, right? And so like from the from my very like younger, younger like teens and early twenties, right? Being part of like different church communities, like religious communities, to to being a part like once I went back to school to finish my bachelor's, being a part of like a women's college community, right? Which was a far cry from being a part of like a religious community.
So then, you know, just being a part of just through work, nonprofit communities, and then as once I started my own business, then becoming a part of like different like business owner type of communities. And that's how you and I met. and so you know, today I there are several different communities that I'm a part of. Like I I'm I'm obviously a part of a community with you. I have like my own personal community that I talk
about earlier, which are like just my my super close friends and just all the really amazing friendships that I've made over the years. I'm a part of like a bookslash fan fit community and so some of the some of the things that that I have experienced that have been done really well
actually and I I this feels really weird to say but actually you know came from not all and not even a majority but I I I have to mention it just because so many of my friendships are this old but like being a part of the religious communities that I was a part of when I was younger and so there were obviously there's obviously and I've I've if you've listened to any other
podcast episode in the past however many years we've been doing this. there's a lot of religious trauma, right? And there's a lot of like things that were wrong and were done wrong. And
Becky Mollenkamp (30:53)
Yeah, I'm waiting to hear how you're gonna say these were good communities.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:57)
and and some of the religious communities that I'm part of, I would say were cult adjacent, just because of the way that they operated. However,
within the larger structure of those religious communities, there were like tight-knit groups of people that were creating their own kind of community within the broader community, if that makes sense. And so and I will say all of those were majority people of color and black people. Hardly any of them included a majority white group of people. And so and I think
There there's a reason for that. And the reason for that is that like black communities and people of color communities for hundreds of years have had to build their own type of community in order to rely on each other. And so, so these like smaller, tight-knit communities within this broader religious context, they were really good about sharing resources and like being there for each other and like being super intentional about.
spending time together, like every week, every month, going on trips together, like being vulnerable with each other. Like one of one of my I wasn't there was one community that I was a part of that I wasn't like super tight with everyone, but there were like a couple people in that community that I was really close to. And I remember when I went back to college, like the first or second semester back, I was like 31, 32 maybe.
I wasn't like I wasn't working or had just like I had I was in between jobs or had just started another job after not working for months. And I was back in college. I had a car note. and at one point I I was homeless. Like I just had nowhere to stay because I couldn't afford anywhere to stay. I couldn't live on campus because I didn't have enough financial aid for that. I couldn't afford my own place. And and two of the members of that community that I knew really well.
They shared, they were, it was them two and and another girl. And they shared a three bedroom apartment. And they literally were like, you can just come live with us for however long you need. And I literally sh like shared a bed with one of the girls. Like we she had the smallest room in the apartment. And that was just the nature
Becky Mollenkamp (33:04)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:05)
of our relationship. Like that was just the nature of our friendship. That it was like, yeah, whatever you need, you can stay here as long as you need. You can, you know, use my room, use our bed, eat our food, whatever you need. And
And I know that for some people that might not seem like a big deal, but like coming from the be first of all, being in a plate in the place that I was in where one, these girls were like almost a decade younger than me. Two, I this church community that I was a part of, I didn't I wasn't just a part of the community, I also worked in the church. And it was a majority
The church membership was majority non-white, but the church leadership and staff was majority white. And I had been so involved on that side of things for like a decade. So coming from that space where it was like there were such hard boundaries around what was available to me and who was accessible to me, to like have them offer that to me at that time in my life. Like it made such an impression. And I was just like,
we can we can do this for each other. Like we can be there for each other in this way if we choose to. Like it doesn't have to be this transactional type of communal like community or relationship. And so that was a really formative experience for me in understanding what it actually means to be in the type of community that I wanted to be in. Not and and and I and when I
When I say community in this context, I mean friendship community, like the people that I will be in community with for all of my life, regardless of where I work or where they work or anything like that. and so that was I I think that was one of the things that and I wouldn't say that's something that the church did well. I would say that's something that those people did well. It just happened to exist within
Becky Mollenkamp (34:51)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:51)
that context.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:52)
I mean, I have had the experience and the blessing of having exposure to some black church communities over the years through some of my friendships. And while I don't agree with many things about the doctrine and and their belief system for many of these spaces, the thing I will say is that they this is it's a very different experience in my experience anyway, of being in that environment.
Both in the church community and I would also just say in black families in general, like extended
Taina Brown she/hers (35:21)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:21)
families versus white churches and many white families that I have had.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:27)
I've like s I've sort of seen this both sides of this and and I think it goes back to just the ways we're conditioned, being of of a sort of more oppressor versus oppressed mindset or a colonizer versus colonized mindset. And I don't mean colonized in the sense of
It's sounding as if it's a victim mindset. What I mean is it's a one where it is about taking and hoarding and how can I extract, how can I take, how can I get. And the other is about how do I protect and help and save and secure and care for those who are having this harm done to them.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:00)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:04)
And even when and I don't think there's any part of the average white person.
person who's going to church that like it or in any world. Like I just don't think most the average white person is sitting around thinking about, like, I'm gonna see what I can get and whatever. But it's
Taina Brown she/hers (36:19)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:19)
these it's like the legacy of these things remains in us, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (36:21)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:23)
And so I see that difference in in white families and in white spaces, churches and then black families, black churches, black spaces where there is like you go into anytime I've been any sort of experience where I am in a black largely black space
of this like of the arms just feel open and welcoming
Taina Brown she/hers (36:41)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:42)
and like a come in how do i how
do i care for you how how
Taina Brown she/hers (36:44)
Take what you need.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:45)
do i feed you yeah take take your load off let's laugh together right like there's just this like energy of care of support of giving and even as a white person going into white spaces it often feels far more closed off buttoned up s nervous what are you like almost a
a challenging of like, why are you here? What do you want to get from me? What do I need to like, do I need to be nervous around you? Do I need to protect myself? And this is a white person coming into white spaces. And I know certainly
Taina Brown she/hers (37:14)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:14)
as a black person coming into white spaces, it has to be even more combative.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:18)
But even as a white person going into white spaces, you often feel that sort of like there's this like coldness, this distance, this questioning that's happening, like this mental calculus. And I and I as a white person probably am often doing it without even recognizing it.
of this like what are they trying to get from me? Because we're so conditioned to only think that that's if that's how you and your legacy, your ancestry, years over years have been wired to take and to think that you're gonna think others will be taking from you because that's how you do. Right?
Taina Brown she/hers (37:46)
Yeah, you're gonna project that. You're gonna project that. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:49)
So you learn to like sort of live in this like posture of
defensiveness of always being
Taina Brown she/hers (37:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:55)
worried about things being taken because that's what you know. And so it's just that has been my experience too, of being in black spaces where it's just like it is a a collective sigh. Like this feeling of like that you can feel
Taina Brown she/hers (38:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:07)
when you once you as a white person can let down the guard, which can be hard, right? Especially because you go into that space feeling like everyone's for sure, 'cause and
Taina Brown she/hers (38:11)
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a learned skill. It's a practice. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:17)
I think as a white person in a predominantly black space, you often will feel like
your own projections are happening of what are they thinking about me. They don't they don't trust me. They don't believe me. They don't whatever. But yeah, if you can, you there is this real like it is a s experience of being held that you don't get, I don't feel like a lot of white spaces. And I think that's beautiful.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:35)
And I always tell this one story and I'm just gonna share it again because I don't know how many times I've told it here. So it's always worth telling again. Because this to me is the as far as like communities that are charging and that kind of thing, right? Business spaces. This I will never forget this and it's been six years because this was in 2020.
The summer of 2020. That I had signed up to go see Resume Menicom speak online. Virtual s a virtual thing he was
Taina Brown she/hers (38:56)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:56)
doing. I don't think his new book was out. I think it was still in support of my grandmother's hands. But it was in, you know, the whole summer of 2020, racial reckoning of white folks and all of the things that were happening. So it was so much of this kind of programming out there. And I had read my grandmother's hands. I love Resma Menicum's work. I was really excited to see him speak.
And yes, it was virtual, but still it's as close as I was gonna get to see him speak. So I had signed up. I was really excited, it was free. So I was like, my gosh, I'm gonna go see this free thing. I figured they'd probably try and sell me something, but whatever. So I signed up for this event. It was hosted by the and I used to forget, and now I know because I've told the story enough now, I had to look it up, by Rooted Global Village. Highly recommend checking them out. I signed up for the event, showed up, got on the Zoom call. There were hundreds, actually probably thousands of people on the call. We couldn't, it was a webinar, so I couldn't see everyone there.
but I was certain just by the chat that it had to have been hundreds, if not thousands, of people who were there to see and hear Resma and Menicum speak. And the room was not, I could tell, not just white women. It was a lot of black women there, excited to hear resma. So the s the person hosting them from Rue Global Village was Corine Bell. And she welcomed him to start talking, right? Introduced him, welcomed him to talking. And within minutes, it was very clear that Resma was exceptionally tired.
And you could just tell like he was very low energy, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (40:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:11)
And she checked in with him, How are you okay? Are you feeling okay? He's like, I had a headache, but I'll be, you know, I'll be fine. So they went on for maybe one more question. And then she said, I can tell that you are really tired. And he's like, Yeah, it's been a lot. This has been a lot this whole summer, you know, and whatever. And I'm been working, I think he was working on his new book. He's out doing all this talking, whatever. He's said a few but I can keep going. And she's like, I know you can.
But I'm not gonna ask you to. And she said, I I think that we would all love to see you get rest. In the spirit of like the collective care and and the
Taina Brown she/hers (40:41)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:42)
in the spirit of his book and everything, she's like, Why don't you take the rest of this hour and take a nap? Or use it however you want, but get some rest. You need it. And he's like, All right, you are you sure? Now, mind you, hundreds, if not thousands of people are in this room to see this man, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (40:55)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:56)
Excited to be there to see him. And this speaker, I mean this woman who host was hosting him.
He had given her full green light continue, right? Even if it
Taina Brown she/hers (41:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:04)
was clear he was struggling. And she took that risk to say, no, this isn't what you need. We all can tell. You can tell. You you need
Taina Brown she/hers (41:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:11)
rest. And I want you to rest. Black men deserve to rest. Black women deserve we deserve rest. You need rest right now. Go rest. So he left. And she said, I I want to use this as an opportunity to model what it looks like, right? For
Taina Brown she/hers (41:22)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:23)
us to to really walk the talk and honor people's needs
Taina Brown she/hers (41:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:26)
and whatever.
And I think if it had been me, well, first of all, I would have the first time he said, I'm fine, I would have continued. But even if I had thought, I first of all, I would probably would have never thought to even offer them offer him the out. Right? At that time I certainly wouldn't have. And if I had, I think if I were her, I would have like, my god, the room's gonna turn on me. There's gonna be a revolt, right? I would have been so terrified. And instead
Taina Brown she/hers (41:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:47)
what happened was person after person started talking about what a gift it was for them. Especially the black women in the room kept show piping up to say
I've never seen this. I've never felt this. I am feeling this care coming in this
Taina Brown she/hers (41:59)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:00)
room. Like I am feeling that gift. And I just thought and and then we ended up doing like listening to some music. And I think she, you know, was like there was just a lot of discussion about what it looks like to rest and to care for yourself and all that. And I think people left that room more healed.
More cared for. And certainly I'm still remembering it six years later. I doubt I would have remembered anything Resma had said. I might have still said, yeah, I Resmond Menecom speak once, but I wouldn't have remembered much else. I will never forget the gift of that experience and what it taught me as a white woman on the other side of that about holding that space and what it gave to so many women who needed it in that moment. And to me, that's what it looks like to really think about what community means. Because she
Taina Brown she/hers (42:35)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:36)
understood what the mission of that group was,
Taina Brown she/hers (42:39)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:39)
the culture they were co.
creating is one that was about what does it look like for us to care each other care for each other collectively. And she modeled it in that moment, even when it was hard, even when I'm sure it had to have been scary. The the what that might look like, what the outcomes of that might be,
Taina Brown she/hers (42:48)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:53)
what will people say, all that she modeled it. And that's not always easy to do, right? She could have had
Taina Brown she/hers (42:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:59)
angry people saying, but I came here to see Rasmus, blah, blah, blah. And
Taina Brown she/hers (43:02)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:02)
and maybe she did. I don't know, because I wasn't on the other side of that. And she stood firm in that because she's like, this is what the community is.
Right. And if
Taina Brown she/hers (43:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:09)
you don't and I have a feeling in her mind it was probably like, and if you don't like it, this isn't the right community for you. That to me
Taina Brown she/hers (43:13)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:15)
is like what a gift of community. And I rarely have
Taina Brown she/hers (43:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:17)
experienced community truly understanding what it means to like walk the talk of of a community
Taina Brown she/hers (43:22)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:23)
beyond like that was the most amazing experience that I've ever had.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:26)
Yeah, yeah. I have I have two more examples and I I
Becky Mollenkamp (43:29)
Love it.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:29)
think we maybe yeah, I don't know. I have two more examples, right? Okay, so like the the first one is I I worked for this nonprofit in Atlanta before I before we moved to to Baltimore. and so I worked there for a few years. and the the focus of the nonprofit was to help
support and bring to light issues that other nonprofit leaders in the city were working on. And so LN is a majority black city. and so well I think now it's actually a majority brown, like Latino and Asian, but I I'm not sure on the statistics that I thought I heard something about that a few years ago. But but for historically it's a majority black city with a lot of black history, right? And so
A lot of the nonprofit leaders that we worked with were black, right? black women, black men, young, old, like it just ran the gamut, right? We had a f I mean, obviously we had some that weren't, but the majority of them were. And so, in I think it was 2022, I don't remember what had happened, but it was it was another police shooting, right? Like it was, or maybe it was the election. I don't know. Pay
Pi take take your pick of of one issue, right, that matters to black people that was felt on a national scale, maybe even a global scale. And I just remember the the ED, the executive director of the organization, just like sending an email and saying, Hey, everybody take the rest of the day off. Like, like this is this is tough. And and you know, he wasn't black. he was Indian American and so
His parents were were immigrants to this country. but like, but yeah, he was like, This this is rough. And understanding the moment, right? Understanding that like most of the people who work for you are not white. most of the people that we work with as a community are black. And that we're probably also like the staff of the organization was probably also, you know, having
some of these conversations with like other nonprofit leaders in the community that we worked with or that were adjacent to our work. And so understanding that everybody just needed time to like decompress and deal. I had never experienced that before in in a job anywhere. And so that was a really formative experience for me. But I mean, but even beyond that, like a lot of a lot of the nonprofit leaders that we did work with were black women.
because it's usually women doing the work, right? It's usually black women doing the work. And so we we tried our best as an organization to like support them as much as possible, including and up to like creating programming for them to just fucking rest, right? Like making sure that we were putting our money where our mouth was, right? Trying to model that kind of organizational structure and behavior and just community.
function of just like we're gonna spend a week taking you guys on a retreat, right? Where it's about you and not the work that you do, right? Understanding that how healthy a person is directly relates to how they run their organization, right? And healthy not just
Becky Mollenkamp (46:39)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:40)
physically, but also emotion emotionally and mentally. and so that was that was just a really neat experience for me to be a part of that. the few years that I worked there.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:49)
I love that because I don't think
Taina Brown she/hers (46:49)
Was it perfect?
Becky Mollenkamp (46:50)
well not right. But I love that because I don't think often and I know it was a non profit, but still in that it they still operate very much usually in the corporate
Taina Brown she/hers (46:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:58)
sense and so we don't see true care, collective care, inside of corporate space as much. so that's great.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:05)
Yeah, yeah. The other example that I'll just really quickly say is actually you, Becky. I don't know if I've ever said this to you directly, but I've definitely said it to other people about you. But the first community that we were a part of together, it wasn't a paid community. It was FEO. I don't even remember what it stands for now, but that was a few years ago. But there it is.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:25)
Feminist executive officer.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:28)
There it is. and it w it was a majority white community, but there were black other black and brown business owners there. and you know, we we had calls throughout the week to do different things and and I remember one call, I think it was right after the twenty twenty four election, was it? where people were freaking out about
What's his face? I don't want to say his name, but what's his face being re-elected again? and and honestly it wasn't it was mostly the white women in the group who were freaking out. I remember we had a community call and a lot of the white women were like really freaking out, just like, How did this happen again? And it's like, Look to your neighbors,
Becky Mollenkamp (48:02)
Which makes sense.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:07)
right? And so, and I just remember there was a moment where I think I said something along the lines of like, you know, we
non-white communities have like dealt with things like this for a long time. And it's not like there's no guidebook for how to deal with things like this. We just need to look in other spaces. We need to look in non-white spaces to see how other communities have dealt with this in order to like manage ourselves and like, you know, and move forward. And there was one older white woman who which her age might not have been an issue.
But or not might not have been a contributing factor, but but who just kind of, you know, then turned to me and was like, Well, what do you think we should do? And you know, and just like put it on me to like hand like give solutions, like to do the work, right? To do the thinking for the group. and and at the time, like I knew what was happening, like I knew that this was like, this is this is typically
What someone who's panicking will do. They will put the emotional labor on somebody else, right? The fact that there was like racial lines along it just complicated it. And so, and at the time I was like, sure, whatever, I'll give you some ideas. Like, I didn't feel any two ways about it or whatever. But I remember after the call, you checked in with me and you're like, Hey, I saw that happen and
I just wanted to check in and make sure you were okay. And like I wanna make sure that you don't feel like and you weren't the only one. Someone else in the group who was also white checked in with me. I don't remember who it was now, but but I remember you like having a specific conversation with you about it. And I think, you know, the other person who checked in with me, like I think I might have said, Yeah, I'm good, you know. I didn't have like as personal of a relationship with that person, so we didn't talk about it that much, but remember talking about it with you and just
talking through, like letting you know I was fine. Here's what I would have had liked to see happen in a moment. And you're like, yeah, that makes sense. We'll try better for next time, you know? And so that really
Becky Mollenkamp (50:03)
Yeah, because as you're telling me it, I'm and
I'm thinking, Becky, I know what you should have done in that moment. Why didn't you? So, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:11)
Yeah, but all that to say, like it that that was the first time that someone who was white saw something like that happen and thought, I don't think this is right. Maybe I should like talk to talk
Becky Mollenkamp (50:24)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:25)
to her about it afterwards. Like who who was even like expressing any kind of concern and open to feedback and suggestion? And so that really that really meant a lot to me.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:33)
Well, that's
nice and thank you. And I can see now but as you're telling I'm like, let this end well. And I
Taina Brown she/hers (50:36)
it's there.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:39)
guess in your mind it ends well, but in my mind I'm like, fuck back, you what you should have said. No, but I hear.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:43)
You didn't fail. That wasn't a failure. It was a learning experience.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:46)
But yes, w of course, right? All fail all failures aren't failures or learning experiences. But yeah, what I think I you know
upon reflection or as I'm hearing that story, the thing I would have liked to have seen Becky do in that moment would be to say, you know, I don't think that Tyena is the person that we need to be asking to do this. And could is this information we could find on our own? And what does it look like for the rest of us to figure this out or, you know, whatever. but hey, we're we live and we learn and two years ago, Becky, it's not
Taina Brown she/hers (51:08)
We live and we learn, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:09)
the same. A and I two years before that, I I mean, I think I would have reached out, but who knows? Maybe I wouldn't have, right? So it's an evolution and I think there is that importance to know that like
even as I'm sitting here saying, think twice before starting a community and and know make sure you have better understandings about how to actually be in community. Also I think this is a part of what community looks like too is understanding there will be growth that to be had and you're never you're not gonna get it right all the time, which is where that harm repair and restorative justice comes
Taina Brown she/hers (51:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:38)
in and understanding those things and being open to critique, to discomfort, to learning and getting it better. And I'm sure I still
I I know I still screw up. There are times where I'm like, damn, I could have handled that better. I wish I had done that. I wish it But the big thing is being committed to continuing and to
Taina Brown she/hers (51:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:55)
learning and showing up again and doing better the next time. So yeah. Thank you for sharing my
Taina Brown she/hers (52:00)
Yeah. Do you remember that moment?
Becky Mollenkamp (52:01)
I do not, because as you were telling, I was like, I don't remember this. And I was thinking, God, I really hope she says and Becky said to that person, but I didn't. And that's okay. It's okay. Listen, I live and learn.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:11)
Well,
I don't know if you did or if you didn't after that, but I know the conversation that you and I had. Okay. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:14)
No, no, in the moment that should have happened. What what I wish
would have happened is in that moment, a gentle calling in of that woman to help understand and educate everyone in the room in that moment that this isn't Tyana's job, right? To to educate
Taina Brown she/hers (52:24)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:27)
you here and what might it look like for you to find that education on your own, right? To kind of redirect
Taina Brown she/hers (52:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:32)
while educating. And that's what I would have like the Becky of s sitting here today is like, that's how I wanted that story to end.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:37)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:38)
But also it's good for me to know that I think
Taina Brown she/hers (52:39)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:40)
now, I hope now, that's how the story would end, and that's signs of growth. And obviously,
Taina Brown she/hers (52:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:45)
you know, obviously we we were okay through that, and it's probably part of the journey for us getting to where we are. So that's beautiful.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:49)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And I and I think after I responded to her, I was like, but you know, I think I said something along the lines of there are a lot of resources out there if you do a search or if you read. And I I think at that point other people jumped in and were like, yeah, I read this thing or I remember hearing about this and then it turned into a really pr I don't I don't want to use the productive, but it turned into a really generative conversation about how to move forward. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:14)
And maybe that's why I didn't say anything, I don't know, but I
can just say like on hearing it, I'm like, there's room for improvement. But but I'm not gonna like spend all day beating myself up about it or anything because also I know yeah. And I can re I
Taina Brown she/hers (53:23)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:26)
can easily in my head call back and these are the ones I can actually remember, and I don't remember shit anymore, which is why don't remember that. But I can easily remember
Taina Brown she/hers (53:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:33)
a half dozen things in my head that I can immediately pull up in the little files that my brain keeps of all the ways I've failed,
Taina Brown she/hers (53:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:38)
of where I'm like, I would have done that better, I would have done that better.
And that's okay, right? Like 'cause now I I do try to show up and do it better and still I mess up and that's okay too. So Yeah, and then
Taina Brown she/hers (53:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you know better, do better. That's what matters. That's what matters.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:51)
when you screw up, fix it again and you know, and it's a it's a it what does
Taina Brown she/hers (53:54)
Mm-hmm. Take accountability. Yeah, take accountability.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:57)
what does your hero she wrote I'm gonna get my chance to say her name, Adrienne Marie Brown, say. I think it's an iterative process, right? So like
Taina Brown she/hers (54:04)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:04)
it there's iterations and it just continues to slowly build on itself. So yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:08)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. So I think
Becky Mollenkamp (54:10)
And all of this, by the way, I just want to do a
little hint, hint, hint, which is this is all in support of the fact that you mentioned we run a community and that community is undergoing some evolution. Speaking of evolution at the moment, and soon we're gonna be back to tell you what that looks like. But if you're interested in community from people who really think a lot about community and are really trying to create community from this sense of what does it mean to create belonging, maybe not.
safety or at least not safety that's not about, you know, coddling comfort, but is actually about challenging ourselves and others. It's coming very soon. So we'll be back soon to tell you more, but that's our little like
Taina Brown she/hers (54:44)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:46)
wet your appetite.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:47)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, just to wrap up, I just I just
Becky Mollenkamp (54:51)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:51)
want to like summarize because we talked about it a lot and it was just kind of this organic conversation. But like one, not every community functions the same way. And so it's important to be a part of multiple communities depending on your needs, right? And depending on, you know, what's gonna help you thrive as a fucking human being on this dumpster fire of a planet right now.
And two, like being uncomfortable is not the same thing as being safe. Like if
Becky Mollenkamp (55:17)
Yeah, I
Taina Brown she/hers (55:17)
you're like if you're if you if you feel threatened, ask yourself what is actually being threatened here? Is it my privilege being threatened? Is it my comfort being threatened? Or is my personhood being threatened? Because those are those are different things.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:32)
And that
I would add one more, which is if you're thinking about creating or joining a community, ask about or create a process for harm repair, restorative justice. And I would ask people
Taina Brown she/hers (55:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:43)
before you get into their space, what does harm repair look like in this space?
Taina Brown she/hers (55:46)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:46)
or what does restorative justice look like in this space? And if they can't answer that, that means they haven't thought about it and that's a problem. Right? Even if they don't
Taina Brown she/hers (55:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:52)
have a they don't have to have something written down necessarily, but if they don't have an answer for you, then that's a real problem, right? Because
Taina Brown she/hers (55:56)
Yeah. Yeah. And an answer could be like a conversation, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (56:00)
Yeah, I mean that's for me, that's what my answer is. I host a a
Taina Brown she/hers (56:00)
A dialogue, right? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:03)
call every month and I tell people at the beginning of the call every month, this is what harm repair looks like. Try to solve it amongst yourselves because you're adults and I trust that you can do that. But if the conversation
Taina Brown she/hers (56:10)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:12)
is something where you don't feel comfortable doing that, you need some outside intervention or you just want someone to talk to about something that happened.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:19)
I'm here, email me and let's do that because I don't want you to ever leave because of something bad that has happened and we haven't had a chance to try and make that better for you. Right. That's but that
Taina Brown she/hers (56:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:28)
is my pro that is the process. And it can be as simple as that, but it's because I've thought about it, right? And I
Taina Brown she/hers (56:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:33)
and it does exist and I communicate it. And that's, I think, important to make sure that you are asking about, or if you are running a space, you darn well better have an answer for somebody who asks you about that.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:41)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And if you are running a space or thinking about running a s running a space, creating a community for people, be very upfront and very clear from the very beginning who it's for, what the process is for harm repair and reduction, what the process is for membership, what the process is for for someone who might not be aligned anymore, who may want to leave
Becky Mollenkamp (57:03)
Right? Departure.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:04)
on their own, or someone that you might have to ask to leave. Like think about those hard things.
on the front end, before something happens. Because once something happens, it like it's harm has already been done. Like it's it's it's not too late, but then you have to like fix something that
Becky Mollenkamp (57:21)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:21)
may not have happened to begin with if you had just been clear in the beginning.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:25)
Yeah.
Love that. Remember when you said this would be a short episode?
Taina Brown she/hers (57:28)
Yeah, I was like we could just do a short episode and just talk about community. It's one of our longest episodes.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:32)
Well, it hasn't been yeah. Hasn't been short. Okay. It was
lovely seeing you. Goodbye, everyone.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:38)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.