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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.696)
Hello, Anna. Thank you for joining me. Can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself before we dive into this conversation?
Anna De La Cruz (00:03.422)
It's Anna. Yeah, thanks for asking.
Anna De La Cruz (00:11.99)
Sure, sounds good. Thanks, Becky. My name is Anna De La Cruz. I'm a social impact consultant, a writer, and a sandwich caregiver based in Seattle.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:22.114)
we met through Substack because we both have Substacks and you're writing about the sandwich generation. So when it, for people like I, I know what it is. I think most people probably have an idea, but just in case people don't, what does that mean when you, when you say you're talking about sandwich caregivers or sandwich generation?
Anna De La Cruz (00:23.688)
Yes.
I am.
Anna De La Cruz (00:37.576)
Yeah, the sandwich generation is those of us caring for young children and aging adults and sometimes, like in my case, disabled relatives. In my case, my brother has Down syndrome. And so I have three young kids. I didn't know what the term sandwich generation meant either until I found myself in this situation. So, yeah, when I had two children, when my mother developed dementia,
and now I have three. And my father since also developed dementia and passed away a year and a half ago. And during this whole process, they were my brother's guardian and they could no longer take care of his needs. So now that has become my responsibility as well. So Sandwich Generation is actually a lot of us doing this, you know, multi-generational caregiving.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:30.124)
Yeah, and I think right now that largely includes Gen X and millennials, primarily, not always, but primarily because of the age of sort of having your own kids and also watching Aging Parents, you're getting sandwiched in between those two. And I think that it's something that doesn't get talked about nearly enough, the fact that there's like these competing caregiving interests that are pulling at you.
And as someone who's experiencing that and also writes about this, I'm assuming you talk to a lot of people who are going through that. What is that like pull of being needed by these two sets of, you know, people in your life? Like, what does that do to people?
Anna De La Cruz (02:00.958)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (02:12.906)
Yeah, well, it's incredibly difficult as you can imagine. And there are many ways in which our society does not make it any easier. I think it doesn't have to be as hard as it is. But as you mentioned already, not a lot of people talk about this. So I wasn't even aware that the sandwich generation was a thing. I wasn't thinking about, well, what am I going to do when I have young kids and my parents are aging? mean, they did have me at an older age. I had my kids when I was
you know, mid to late thirties and forty when my my youngest was born. you know, they're given the demographics. This isn't actually surprising or unusual situation that more and more people are experiencing, but nobody really talks about it. And so that right there makes it difficult because you find yourself in the situation of of crisis. You know, my my mom ended up in the hospital.
before we really discovered the extent of her disabilities and her experiencing dementia. A lot of people hide the early signs of dementia or they're able to mask it in a lot of ways. And then often what brings it out is some kind of crisis. So that right there is extremely challenging because you're in the middle of what is already a tough time with really young kids. You're busy, you're working, you're taking care of their needs. And then suddenly,
mom needs significant help, know, what she needs to figure out where she's going to live or who's going to come into her home to care for her. And, you know, often by then finances are kind of messy and, you know, need to be sorted out. So there just isn't the time, first of all, to manage all these competing needs. And there aren't a lot of resources for support, unfortunately. I mean,
Again, just talking about these issues would be extremely helpful if we knew they were coming and we were kind of open about the fact like, this is a reality of life. I think a lot of people and a lot of our parents, a lot of the boomer generation kind of has this attitude like, well, hopefully I'll just go along just fine and one day I'll die in my sleep. And sadly, that's not.
Anna De La Cruz (04:31.018)
That's not the way it plays out for most people. mean, disability is something that happens to a lot of us and just needing care and that's okay. That's a very human thing, but it's not something that's talked about or.
well-resourced in our very individualistic society. So we end up trying to kind of like white-knuckle through all the child care needs, the parental care needs, the finances, and many people end up having to leave work or reduce their hours or their career ambitions as a result of
of all this caregiving. And then of course, there's the kind of like mental health and self care issues that come into play. So it kind of spirals into, you know, a lot of different potential problems and hardships for people in this situation, depending on how it plays out.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:21.142)
Yeah. Well, and families have changed a lot over time. So at one time, people died probably much younger and perhaps more quickly, I'm not sure, but I don't know. I'm curious. I'm thinking at one time people died younger. So their kids maybe hadn't even started a family by the time their parents were dying and or they had kids much younger. And so those needs didn't overlap as much.
Anna De La Cruz (05:29.504)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (05:48.97)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:49.198)
Now we're in this place where people are living a lot longer and having children later often, not always, but the age at which people are having children is certainly going up and parents are good and people are having smaller families. So there's less disbursement of care needs amongst people. just the ways that we've changed, families have changed, I'm assuming have made this worse in a lot of ways than it used to be. Am I reading that right?
Anna De La Cruz (05:54.998)
Okay.
Anna De La Cruz (06:04.939)
Thanks
Anna De La Cruz (06:14.996)
Yes, absolutely. I mean, you just named several of the demographic factors that are contributing to this. Actually sandwich generation, the term I guess was came about during the boomers generation when people first started experiencing this, you know, double caregiving responsibility. But it's like it's like on steroids now for Gen X and millennials because of all these demographic issues. mean, like you said, people are having fewer children or not having children at all.
which means that caregiving into old age as they're living longer, but not necessarily healthier. mean, that's the other piece I would add to the list that you gave is, yes, people are living longer, the health span life span gap is what it's called. But essentially people are living more years in disability with chronic illness, with dementia, with various different diseases that can be treated and people are staying.
alive, but they're not, they're needing a lot of care. And then at the same time, I would add, you know, the lack of caregiving support and affordability. So there's a huge demand and increased demand for support, but for paid care, I mean, it's really out of reach for so many families. It's so expensive. And now we could add to that the fact that Medicaid is going to disappear for a lot of people, which is, is frightening. I mean, I really, I really don't know how
we're gonna manage. Two of my family members are on Medicaid just to care for their long-term care needs. mean, the average cost for nursing care is over six figures a year. I mean, most people don't even have that much saved for retirement or maybe they have that much for, you know, that's meant to last many years. So that is like, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:01.078)
Yeah, I want to talk more about these broken systems in a second, but there's one more demographic kind of thing I want to mention and then we'll get to that because one thing that I think and you tell me what your read on it. The one thing I think that has stayed consistent, though, given all of these other changes is that the primary people responsible for this caregiving that you're talking about is women. I'm thinking that hasn't changed, has it?
Anna De La Cruz (08:07.284)
Right, favorite.
Anna De La Cruz (08:22.324)
Yes, absolutely. Yes. No, mean, you know, more men are involved in caregiving and there's like, there's some interesting changes I would point to there in that, for example, with parenting, people are spending significantly more time on intensive parenting than we ever did before. And so men are actually spending many, many more hours.
parenting and also, I mean, there's a number and it's been really interesting in writing on Substack. I've had a number of men reach out to me saying, you know, I'm experiencing the same situation you're in or I have a special needs child and a parent with dementia. And what they tell me is I don't feel like there's a lot of resources out there for me either because there's a lot of kind of mommy blogs or, you know, resources targeting women.
but not a lot of places where I feel seen in this. And it's sort of like a, it's a vicious cycle, right? Because that's because women are doing the vast majority of unpaid care work, unpaid and paid care work, but primarily unpaid or underpaid. But anyway, so I would say it's kind of shifting, but yes, absolutely women have worn the brunt and it's even when they are paid, it's significantly underpaid, maybe because
Becky Mollenkamp (09:41.326)
Well, and one of the reasons for that, they're all rooted in sexism, but one of them is about the sexism involved in pay and career opportunities. And that is often why women end up exiting the workforce for caregiving, both of young children and then also aging parents and this whole sandwich generation issue, because they're often paid less. And when the choice comes, we can't afford to pay someone else to do this care work.
Anna De La Cruz (09:47.712)
Yes.
Anna De La Cruz (09:52.992)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:09.606)
one of us has to do this care work and that is when you're lucky enough to be in a situation that you have two partners in the home, that's certainly not always the case, but when you do and there is that choice to be made, the lower paid person is usually the person who ends up exiting the workforce and that because of, you know, pay disparity typically falls on women. So I'm assuming that's one of the reasons why women are often doing more of the care work. I'm sure some of the other just societal conditioning around women being made to believe that we are the carers and the nurturers.
Anna De La Cruz (10:37.718)
Yeah, there's many reasons. That's a big one. mean, that's one way in which, yes, society kind of makes it harder to exit that loop of women doing the bulk of caregiving. there are a lot of, as you say, societal stigmas, pressures, ways in which men are conditioned to perpetuate the cycle by sort of...
insisting that they're not as good at caregiving or shying away from those kinds of activities. But yeah, that's not always the case.
we know that women are also penalized at work. The motherhood penalty is very real when they have children, whereas men are rewarded financially. end up usually, and you know, I don't think that's just a result of actual caregiving responsibilities or, you know, I mean, women aren't taking more time off. It's just there's, there's assumptions that women can no longer do as good of a job if they're taking care of children. And the other
Becky Mollenkamp (11:34.85)
Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:39.886)
In fact, most studies I've seen have shown that women are actually more productive once they become parents.
Anna De La Cruz (11:44.094)
Yes. Yeah, they're more productive. And what I was going to say is that at home, they're still, even if, even if, you know, men and women are working the same number of hours, women are absolutely doing more of the household labor and caregiving. By a large number of hours, I don't remember exactly what it is, but it's not, it's not negligible. Let's just say.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:57.388)
Yeah, by a large number the last study I saw in it.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:07.98)
Right. Yeah, was so substantially like double digit percentage more as I remember it. So, yeah. And then when you're adding in, like these are the things that are often happening even before you add in the aging parents or the aging family members or the, you know, caregiving that goes beyond just your children being involved. Then that adds a whole other level where, interestingly, it doesn't necessarily from what I see now that there's obviously.
Anna De La Cruz (12:12.713)
Yes.
Anna De La Cruz (12:26.496)
Great.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:35.01)
various, you know, there's individual cases, but I'm talking just sort of big picture when we're looking at trends as a whole. It seems like that additional work then also seems to fall often on women. I've seen it in my own life too, where even if it's not the woman's parent, it's the husband's parent. No, the caregiving seems to fall on the women. Not always, obviously, but as a whole, it seems like that still continues. And part of that might be because she's already home.
Anna De La Cruz (12:53.548)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:03.47)
caring for children. So there's this idea that she has more availability to be able to handle those things. I don't know if there's other reasons that you notice beyond just the sexist conditioning.
Anna De La Cruz (13:12.854)
I mean, I think there's just so much of the conditioning that's woven into our systems now. So it's not just sort of like individual perpetrators like the male in the household. It's like, you know, the principal and the teachers at the school who only call mom when the kid's sick or, you know, the caregivers at the nursing home who call the female.
in the household or the very implicit but real assumption or just, I don't know, situation that plays out, which is that the sister, if there's, you know, three kids and mom needs someone to help, it's going to be the daughter or the oldest daughter usually that ends up somehow being the one to be expected by the parents or and or society or has their own internal pressure to
to play that role.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:06.702)
Well, and we're talking here a lot about like sort of heteronormative traditional quote unquote families, but we also have plenty of families where there are, it's a single woman household, a single parent household that's having to manage this. And there's that additional piece of homes where because of people having less children, there aren't multiple children to juggle these responsibilities. There's a child or in your case, one child who's able to do that care. And so
Anna De La Cruz (14:18.762)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:36.054)
What have you seen? Because I know where I want to shift the systems. The systems are failing all of us, but I'm assuming it is exponentially more difficult for those folks who are having to navigate this basically as a person of one.
Anna De La Cruz (14:49.756)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've experienced a lot of that. mean, so there's an also witnessed it with my mom and my mom was a single mom. My father was very involved, but he was kind of the weekend parent and, you know.
My mom ended up managing raising both of us a disabled son She was working and I thought a lot in retrospect about how hard that must have been for her and All the things that she was she was going through. mean Just trying to navigate school and all the different types of care and childcare And then my grandparents were getting older too, so I did see that play out
for my mom and I think it did really impact her mental health and.
and was extremely challenging. I was a kid, so I didn't have the perspective that I have now when I was witnessing it. But I know many people are experiencing that and sometimes have children with special needs who they need to care for in addition to parents. And they're doing it on their own. mean, there's so many people actually in this situation or some combination of the situation. And there just aren't the resources out there.
somebody who can help be that like guide or support to navigate, help you navigate through the system would be incredibly helpful. Like, okay, here's like a doula or yeah, or like an advocate. Yeah, I mean, an advocate, like a health, advocate, you know, to say, all right, here's the first place we need to start. Like, let's map out what kind of support you need and what you're missing.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:13.678)
Mmm, like a doula.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:19.47)
Yeah, and advocate, that's a better word even. Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (16:32.438)
What are your concerns? There were so many things when I started out in this process with my parents that I just had no clue who to even ask. I mean, who do I call? Who can help me find out what do I even start asking like assisted living communities? What are the questions? And I didn't ask all the questions I should have asked because I was just frantically making phone calls and trying to figure it out on my own. Finally, later I did get the support of
an elder care consultant or specialist, but that's something, you know, I had to pay for it comes at a price that everybody can afford that. you know, having something like this that was offered to people through a health, an integrated health care system, which is a whole nother topic, you know, there's lots of problems with the health care system in this country, the way it operates, but, you know, having that more integrated and having somebody who could really guide people through this process would be
It would create efficiencies too, just in the system.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:32.812)
Well, let's talk systems because we're going to talk capitalism because you mentioned about caregivers being mostly women. And I would even go further and say they're mostly women and women of color, even more specifically in the paid caregiving space, which we then know translates into much lower pay. And yet so the people who are doing the direct caregiving work are not making a lot of money. In fact, many of them struggle to make ends meet. They're having to work.
Anna De La Cruz (17:37.856)
Yeah.
Thank
Anna De La Cruz (17:47.315)
Okay.
Anna De La Cruz (17:57.898)
Nope.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:00.908)
a lot of hours to try and survive because it pays so little. And yet you're talking about how expensive it is to get caregiving help. And so I would imagine then one of our first problems is who's getting rich because it's not the people doing the work. And I'm assuming then that capitalism is playing a big part in why the pricing is so exorbitant and makes it so that most people can't afford this kind of.
Anna De La Cruz (18:04.971)
Yes.
Anna De La Cruz (18:08.894)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Anna De La Cruz (18:24.694)
Yeah, I mean, I actually think it's more of it's more of like a market failure in capitalism, like the care industry, because even in nonprofit or, you know, systems that are not or public systems, people are not paid well enough to do the job of caregiving. And it's still very expensive. So, I mean, my take on that is it needs to be subsidized. It's one of those things that is a public good that is the reason we pay taxes. And
a reason we should pay taxes. mean, again, like this is something so obvious, we're all going to get old if we're lucky. And, you know, why wouldn't even the most capitalist person want to ensure that the support was there for themselves or family and not to make it harder on the rest of society to have people who are unhoused or without care or just going to the emergency room.
because they don't have the basic services for aging that they need. I mean, I think it's just something that like caregiving needs to be, it makes sense. It needs to be subsidized. You can't both pay people a fair wage, but expect individuals to basically pay a salary, a full salary of another person because they're needing to pay for their own cost of living as well. I mean, it just, you know, that math doesn't work, but that is a very capitalistic.
attitude that like, well, we all pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. We're all in it for our own good and can take care of ourselves. And if you can't take care of yourself, there must be something wrong with you or, Oh, I can't hear you. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:09.622)
to myself. If I can take care of myself, you should be able to as well, right? And if you can't, what's wrong with you? But in the meantime, we're seeing that gap between have and have nots get wider and wider than it's ever been. And I'm wondering, because you do study quite a bit around these topics. This may be something outside of your expertise, and that's totally okay. But I'm curious if there are differences in how other Europeans specifically maybe social, and maybe not just European, but other countries outside of the US.
Anna De La Cruz (20:18.325)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:37.006)
especially those probably more socialist or socialist-democrat leaning kind of places where there are more of a social service net. Are they handling these issues differently or is this a sort of global issue? Well, I mean, to some extent...
Anna De La Cruz (20:46.646)
Well, I mean, to some extent, the care crisis is global, but it is playing out very differently. So I would say, yes, the Scandinavian countries have a lot more figured out in terms of just this basic concept that care does need to be subsidized by taxpayer dollars. But it's one of those things that we should be thinking about the way we think about.
paying police officers and paying for our road to be fixed and paying for basic infrastructure. It's infrastructure that we need in society. So I think it's just, it's not even that they aren't, you these are capitalist countries too. They just recognize that it's actually more efficient and pays off for the run to support, you know, the vulnerable members in your society. And so, you know, the tax rates are higher and you don't have to worry about healthcare.
and aging and care, period, if you have disabilities in those countries. And so I think it just makes more sense. And it's even within the context of capitalism. And then there's, of course, other places that have very different social and cultural structures that I think often are also the ones that don't have as
intense of a capitalist infrastructure or mentality that we do in this country that just have stronger sort of family unit kind of cultural norms in place.
So people are still living closer to their family members or there's multi-generational households. So there's a lot more just sharing of care labor that does ease the burden. And that's, mean, yeah, that's not a very capitalist, that's a sort of like socialism within the family unit, right? And that's just kind of, I guess, happened more naturally or as part of the social structure. And we just don't have that.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:42.86)
I was gonna say there's also societal cultural differences in the US where we have this very strong individualistic approach that other places have a more collective approach. So even beyond the subsidized care and the availability and accessibility of care, we don't have the, takes a village system here, right? So what, between those two things, right? The lack of,
Anna De La Cruz (22:46.422)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:09.134)
systems in place to help people, to make it affordable, accessible, to receive healthcare, having people there to help you navigate the systems, all of those things, along with a lack of family support, neighbor support, community support, bringing you meals and, you know, you're saying, go take a nap. Well, we got this for a while. Between those two things where we're falling short, what are the consequences, both for those who are needing care, but more importantly,
Anna De La Cruz (23:25.834)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:37.962)
not more importantly in the greater scope of things, but for our conversation, for those people who are in that sandwich generation, what are the consequences of the systems and lack of systems as they exist right now?
Anna De La Cruz (23:49.086)
Yeah, well, mean, the consequences for people like me and even more so for people, you know, who really have less privilege, quite frankly, than I do, and, you know, can't afford some of the support that I've, you know, been able to, to afford is having to, as I mentioned earlier, drop out of the workforce or work less just to care for children, parents.
siblings who need support. And so that has huge implications for then your own retirement, your own ability to save for when you get older and care for yourself, which you have to do because again, the supports aren't in place. And that causes a lot of stress and anxiety and contributes to the poor health honestly of sandwich caregivers who are then, you know, living their life at this kind of state of stress of like, can't do everything I need to do for my own family to
earn the income that I need, but I also am not fully present to take care of my parents who don't have anybody else. And then there's also issues about a lot of our families are living spread apart across the country. We're not necessarily even living in the same state. So do we have to then uproot our lives and move to help out or choose between that and...
I don't know, figuring out some alternative that we can both afford and works for our families. it's, the number of elderly people in this country in poverty is shocking. And it's really sad, you know? then... Yeah, get it.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:26.616)
Yeah. I was gonna say, I'm assuming bankruptcy is also a big part of that, like financial ruin, perhaps even homelessness, or maybe at least being put in facilities that are not the facilities you'd want to be in either. Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (25:40.744)
Yeah, and you know, like, more than half of people in facilities are on Medicaid. So what's going to happen? Where are those people going to go? I mean, you know, what I'm hearing is that a lot of these centers, you know, I mean, forget about what you want or the most desirable place, like there isn't even going to be the availability of beds for people who need to be in a nursing home.
with these Medicaid cuts because entire hospitals that depend on, who have a patient population that's mostly on Medicaid are gonna have to close.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:14.37)
And then if those people end up on the streets, we also know there's an effort to end homelessness by putting the unhoused basically in prison. where we're going to now what have these privatized prison system for people who basically just can't afford the healthcare that they need. And that's why they've ended up there. Yeah, it's terrifying.
Anna De La Cruz (26:16.566)
Mm-hmm.
Anna De La Cruz (26:35.626)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it also makes me think about, I think we're still seeing the effects of the cuts that Reagan imposed in the 80s around mental health. And then you saw a lot of that then play out on the streets.
of people who are unhoused with mental illness and didn't have the resources. mean, I don't know. Yeah. Or is there going to be a lot of homelessness and people who simply don't have a place to live when they get older because they can't afford it? I don't know. mean, it's really kind of shocking to think about when you look at the projections of how these Medicaid cuts are going to play out.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:20.344)
Well, we're, you know, the baby boomer generation is enormous. It's enormous. So, you know, and they're aging at a really, really fast clip. And that is putting such a strain on systems. And we don't even have good systems to begin with. So, but let's go back then to these Gen X and millennial, largely moms, also not moms, but largely women. But if you're really in that sandwich, it's often because you are a mom who has your kids and aging parents or someone else that you're caring for.
Anna De La Cruz (27:24.862)
Mm-hmm.
Anna De La Cruz (27:46.344)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:51.032)
When you're put in that position, you don't have the money, your parents don't have the money, you don't have the money, because now you've got to make sure your kids can eat and you're also worried about mom being okay. You're looking at leaving the workforce, potential bankruptcy, your own worries about homelessness and or just even if you are managing to scrape it all together, the guilt about it, what if it's not the facility they want to be in? I'm not providing the way I'd like to, my kids are not getting everything they need out of me. That emotional.
wear and tear on women. Part of what you mentioned earlier was your mom and how she didn't talk about these things, right? She kept it invisible. And that's what the summer series is about. It's about the invisible labor of women, the stuff that we are carrying on our shoulders, but not really talking about, or perhaps not even for ourselves seeing as labor, not giving it no, because no one else gives us credit for that, right? Like nobody's looking at this care work and saying,
Anna De La Cruz (28:22.197)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (28:34.358)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:49.932)
You ought to be paid for that. Right? Like that's a lot of work you're doing. Right? It's this assumption that it'll get done and that we're going to get it done and that it's really not a big deal. Right? Like it's because you're just supposed to do that. And many women are trying to do that while also working 40 hours. Now they're doing full time job caring for kids, full time job caring for parents and a full time job delivering, not to mention themselves. It's just so much. So women of that generation didn't talk about it.
Anna De La Cruz (28:52.032)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (29:11.828)
Yeah, it's a muscle.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:19.234)
because they were taught they should be strong. They just need to bear that weight, whatever. What are you seeing with like Gen X and millennials as they're navigating this? we approaching it differently? Are we also keeping it quiet? Like where are we at with that on how we are showing up as we are navigating this?
Anna De La Cruz (29:36.99)
Yeah, well, I think we're trying to figure it out. We're trying to do something different and there's a lot of different approaches and we're trying to figure it out also in a context of real feminist backlash that we're seeing in this country overall. so that makes it tough, right? I mean, that's another...
Becky Mollenkamp (29:40.366)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (29:59.35)
piece to sort of navigate how do we talk about these issues when suddenly men are saying, about me? And we need to take back whatever.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:11.758)
I got in the trad wife movement that's going on and right like we should just do this all with a smile and have a drink waiting for her husband. Like really this return to kind of what our parents and their parents were expected to navigate it.
Anna De La Cruz (30:16.726)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (30:21.98)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. mean, that's so it's sort of like trying to just fight against that, but also forge a new way that isn't just also the black and white and sort of old school feminism of like, we just need to be more like men or we need to. It's sort of like all or nothing. We're going to like burn our bras and you know, I don't know.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:45.408)
And or that like, I'll get mine as a white woman. So your struggle as a black woman, well, that's on you to figure out, right? Exactly. Right.
Anna De La Cruz (30:49.022)
Yeah.
Yes, yeah. So the intersectional piece for sure is a huge part of this. And just recognizing the nuance in all of it and the different experiences and how can we create a societal structure that supports people in whatever phase and experience that they're coming from. Yeah, I do see a lot more people speaking out.
of course now about these issues, about caregiving. And as you say, mean, our capitalism has been built on the unpaid labor of women. I mean, this is how we are where we are today. I think it's, and yes, of course, When it comes to care, guess I would say like, yeah, women and primarily women of color, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:21.964)
Good.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:35.04)
Yep. And Black people, right? So well, and Indigenous people, Yep.
Anna De La Cruz (31:51.478)
And so all of our systems have developed around that and been built around that with those ingrained concepts and rules and, you know, they're all sort of implicitly embedded in what we're doing every day. And so how do we start to change that? I mean, obviously we need to talk, continue to talk more loudly about these issues. And I think a lot more people are, you know,
are starting to understand and at least be versed in what is invisible labor and the mental load and, and, okay, yeah, I mean, I guess women have been doing all that work for a long time. I mean, it's, you know, how you create those societal changes. I don't know. I mean, I think it is a slow and constant like, build and talking and pushing and, but I do think we really need to push for the policies to be in place to kind of force the
those changes. We've seen a lot of real changes play out in societies when some kind of policy has said, no, this is not okay legally. Whether it's like, I just got back from Europe and I was like, yeah, people take the month off in August because it's like by law, you can't force your employees to, it's not just that companies are deciding to be...
wonderful to all their employees, this kind of law. And as a result, it's part of societal norms, right? So, you know, people aren't just gonna suddenly change. We need to kind of force it through how we decide we're going to be as a society. And as that's reflected in legal, tax, governmental structures.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:19.256)
Cause they won't.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:41.326)
And I do think, because yes, we've got to fight for systemic change. Part of that, I do think, begins with making the invisible visible. When we quietly shoulder all this extra weight, people will naturally take advantage, sometimes because they don't even know they are, right? Because we haven't been vocal about it.
Anna De La Cruz (33:51.21)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:03.054)
So one of things we've been asking our guests to do is to complete this sentence. So I'm going to put it on you and see what comes up for you, which is when I make my invisible labor visible, I can or however you want to end that sentence. So could you say that for us? When I make my invisible labor visible, visible, what comes up for you when you say that?
Anna De La Cruz (34:15.316)
Okay.
Anna De La Cruz (34:24.374)
Can I think about it for a second? Yeah, exactly. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:25.752)
Sure, go ahead, yeah. I can edit this part out too, the thinking part.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:34.072)
I'm just wondering your own experience even just when you, the more you've talked about this burden, this weight, burden sounds may not be the right word, but when you've talked about this weight that you're carrying, what changes for you and just being able to speak about it.
Anna De La Cruz (34:37.717)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (34:52.118)
When I make my invisible labor visible, I can feel more valued and bring out the value that other people are providing in society that is unseen.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:56.557)
It's okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:12.078)
And that's where we can start to fight, right? When we start to a value on something. I love that. Well, here's where I'd like to end things because we could talk about a lot of this forever. Yes, systemic change. We need more societal change so that we're supporting each other. We need to go check on our neighbors. We need to know their names. We need to bring the meals and all of these things. That's what's not changing tomorrow.
Anna De La Cruz (35:13.802)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (35:21.429)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (35:35.211)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:36.298)
I don't like putting, making things individual responsibility when they're not. And so this is what I'm about to say is not, this is a you problem listener. And if you are in this situation or it may be coming for you, what are things that you've discovered that people who are in that situation need to know can do for themselves that have some amount of, and you know, power over controlling for themselves? Because again, the other things need to happen, but that's not happening tomorrow. So how do I help myself navigate through?
this part of life.
Anna De La Cruz (36:06.9)
Yeah, well, I would say as soon as possible, start looking for the resources that are out there. Again, when I was thrown in the situation, I hadn't even thought about what a resource would even look like for people in sandwich generation caregiving positions. But now I know that there are communities out there. There are people, mean, you know, people who email me and ask me questions, I respond to them. I mean, I've shared resources for other people who happen to be here in Seattle. You know, just start talking to people.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:19.694)
Mmm.
Anna De La Cruz (36:35.954)
Look for those, there's even checklists online. mean, know, checklists is only going to get you so far, but it is going to help you understand what kinds of things you might be facing soon. even if you're not to the position of crisis or you're just like, my parents are getting a little older and I have young kids, start thinking about that now. You know, what does, what is the plan? What do my parents want? How would I handle this situation? What are the options out there?
Because the more you are informed and knowledge is power, right? The more you can kind of manage and control the situation as things are thrown at you, the better off you're gonna be and the more prepared you're gonna feel, the more confident.
There are people out there, there are resources out there. There's a lot of great care writers on Substack who share resources frequently. So I would just say get informed, try to get ahead of it a little bit so that you're not caught in a crisis without any support system or resources in place.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:33.016)
And your subsect is also a great place to go to, and I'll link to that in the show notes for people to learn more also. And just personally caring for yourself. I think part of what I'm hearing inside of that is like learning to ask for help, learning to ask for your needs to be met, which I think some of that is in just like the caregiving, you know, finding actual resources that can take some of the load off, but also remembering that you can ask.
Anna De La Cruz (37:35.04)
Great.
Anna De La Cruz (37:46.069)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:59.564)
neighbors, you can ask friends. Like I think that we are so conditioned again in this individualistic world that we live in here in America to say like, I'm not allowed to ask for help or it's weak to ask for help. So we have to learn how, like, I love our moms, but I do think their generation fed us bit of this superwoman narrative that we have to let go of because it's harming us. Like we don't have to be super women. We need to be able to ask for help and be okay with.
Anna De La Cruz (38:23.974)
Absolutely. I have struggled with that so much myself. still
cringe a little bit when I think about asking someone for help, but then I'm like, what? Why? I mean, I have to really challenge that in myself and ask myself, no, I mean, when I think about that person asking me for help and I want to help, I'm almost like happy that they asked me for help. And so I know other people feel that way too. So why do I feel so guilty and bad about it? It's like, but I think you're right. It's been very much conditioned in us to feel that way. Like we should be able to do everything.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:45.966)
Mm-hmm.
Anna De La Cruz (38:55.187)
And I also think, you know, when we talk about self care, we have to be careful too, because I think that's part of this individualistic capitalist narrative we've been fed is that.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:04.375)
Hmm.
Anna De La Cruz (39:06.198)
You should be able to self-care your way out of all these systemic problems of not having enough support and having to care for all these people. Just go get a massage. You'll be fine. No, actually, I don't have time for a massage. I don't have a babysitter. That's another expense. Self-care is, it's almost like become a way to sell people more things that are promised to fix these problems that aren't really the problems in the first place.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:16.938)
Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:34.154)
Self-care in the way I was talking about it is like asking for help, setting boundaries. No, know, but I understand agree with you. And actually, when you said that, makes me think that like we there is something to that, though, we need to flip it on setting. It's our calling it collective care, because that's the problem that we have here is we're all worried about our own individual self-care. And what about the collective care? Because if we want to be receiving that, also have to be giving that.
Anna De La Cruz (39:38.55)
Totally, yes. No, I wasn't saying.
Anna De La Cruz (39:51.06)
Yes, absolutely. Unity.
Anna De La Cruz (39:56.605)
Yes.
Anna De La Cruz (40:01.898)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:02.166)
So also thinking about what are the ways that you can be collectively caring? Do you have a neighbor who's, and most of us don't even know our neighbors, let alone knowing what they're going through, what they're navigating. How can we learn to help? We just had a neighbor who passed away and her neighbor mowed her lawn for her for a year as she was battling cancer. I saw that, I witnessed that and was like, I want to do more of that too. Now he doesn't have young children.
Anna De La Cruz (40:20.694)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (40:25.109)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:28.822)
And I was giving myself a permission slip in that way, but also I can do more. We all can. I, I do think like, let's stop talking self care and start talking collective care.
Anna De La Cruz (40:37.684)
Yeah, collective cares is the way to go, or community care.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:41.196)
Yeah. Well, then that also brings that reciprocity in that I think part of the reason we hate asking for help is because many of us have been conditioned to think that it's selfish, it's needy, it's begging, it's whatever. But when we can think of it as, it's collective care. I've helped them. Now I'm asking for my help in return, or hopefully they're just giving it. But even being able to ask for it when you know there's a reciprocal nature to it, takes some of that stuff out of it.
Anna De La Cruz (40:49.43)
Thank
Anna De La Cruz (40:59.338)
Right.
Anna De La Cruz (41:05.428)
Yeah, it's reciprocal, but it also doesn't have to be like tit for tat. Yeah, because it has to be that way. It has to be rooted in generosity and care for it to really work because it's not going to be even. Like I like to tell my kids, know, it's not everything isn't, you know, 100 % fair, exactly the same all the time. That's okay. You know, we're, we're all part of a system and a community and we, we take care of each other in the ways that
Becky Mollenkamp (41:09.688)
Tip for tap. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:15.288)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:35.096)
well, and that's where we can get into equity versus equality, right? Which is important too. But I think some of this is just like, it's a great reminder for us to also examine our own conditioning and the ways that we're showing up in the world, because is that how we wanna be showing up? Because I think this isolation, the way we're having to navigate care and isolation, it is a systemic issue. It's also something that we have more ability to change within ourselves, to start thinking more collectively. And this is an invitation.
Anna De La Cruz (41:35.638)
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Anna De La Cruz (41:46.55)
Thank you.
Anna De La Cruz (42:01.748)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:04.556)
that. thank you, Anna. You've got me thinking and a little scared because my mom's getting up there and yeah, but you know, well, we've got to figure it out, right? Like, yeah, I will. And I read your newsletter. So I'll be looking for resources. Because the truth is, I think we also in this country are so afraid of talking about death.
Anna De La Cruz (42:15.638)
reach out to me. You take care, I'm here.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:27.362)
that we all want to believe that narrative that we're just all gonna die in our sleep one night peacefully and it'll be just like really easy and everything's gonna be fine. And we don't wanna think about our parents dying. We don't wanna think about our siblings dying. We don't wanna think about these things and we have to learn. So part of this is also we need to change our relationship with death in this country.
Anna De La Cruz (42:31.434)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (42:38.613)
Yeah.
Anna De La Cruz (42:42.92)
Yeah, exactly. I have written a lot about that too. think that's another that feeds into this whole cycle, like you're saying. It's just being realistic versus avoiding reality. Yeah. Thank you, Becky, for having me. It's been great to chat.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:46.349)
I bet.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:54.178)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate this and I love this conversation.