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Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah is a pioneering clean air advocate and mother of three children.
In this powerful episode, Rosamund shares with us her personal journey of turning the injustice of her daughter's death, Ella, into purpose. We discuss the causes and effects of air pollution on our health and the health of the environment. We also explore the links between air pollution and inequality in London, and solutions that will make a positive difference in the long-term.
Show Notes
In this episode, we meet Rosamund, a clean air advocate from South London. She has been named by Vogue as one of the most influential women in the UK. In 2013, Rosamund’s nine-year-old daughter, Ella Roberta, died from toxic levels of air pollution 25 metres from their home.
In this powerful episode, Rosamund shares with us her personal journey of turning the injustice of her daughter's death into purpose. We discuss the causes and effects of air pollution on our health and the health of the environment. We also explore how air pollution particularly affects black, Asian and ethnic minoritised communities in the UK, and solutions that will make a positive difference in the long-term.
Episode timestamps
00:00 - Welcome to Black Earth podcast
03:13 - Rosamund's relationship with nature
06:21 - Ella's passion and gift for music
07:13 - Ella's story and Rosamund’s journey for justice
11:44 - Grief
12:33 - What is air pollution
13:22 - Impacts of air pollution
14:20 - Sources of air pollution
14:54 - Why it's important to address inequality and air pollution
16:56 - Perspectives that black community can bring to addressing air pollution
18:26 - Long term solutions for clean air
20:29 - Individual choices that make a difference
22:29 - Ella's Law
23:26 - Ella Roberta Family Foundation
25:38 - Connect with us at Black Earth podcast
Support and follow Rosamund’s work: https://ellaroberta.org/
Support and follow Black Earth
We are on Instagram, Tiktok, and LinkedIn: @blackearthpodcast
Our website: https://www.blackearthpodcast.com/
Creators & Guests
What is Black Earth Podcast ?
Black Earth is an interview podcast celebrating nature and black women leaders in the environmental movement. Join us for inspiring, informed and authentic conversations on how we can make a positive impact for people and nature worldwide.
Episodes out every Wednesday. Connect with us online @blackearthpodcast on Instagram, LinkedIn and Tiktok.
Hosted by Marion Atieno Osieyo. Healing our relationship with nature, one conversation at a time.
Marion: [00:00:00] I am Marion Atieno, and I love nature. I come up with solutions to take care of people and the planet. I get my joy from nature, whether I'm cleaning my local river in my community, or I go to a forest for a long run. Or I'm making up new vegan recipes to cook for my girlfriends , and I also love black people. I love the way we laugh, the way we create the smell of coconut oil on our skin.
I love how diverse and resilient black culture is because it reminds me of how diverse and resilient nature is.
In the summer of 2020, I found myself at a crossroads. [00:01:00] We were right in the middle of a health pandemic, a major event, which I knew would become more frequent with the destruction of nature. And at the same time, we were processing the murder of George Floyd. I felt really overwhelmed and motivated by the urgency of these two issues.
How do I show up more for black communities and our struggle to end racism and also continue my work to protect and take care of this beautiful living planet? How do I lead with the love I have for my heritage and for nature as opposed to the fear of the tragedies happening around? So I started this podcast to do just that.
I want to tell a new story about the environment that's rooted in science and the black experience. I want to tell a new story about black people that's inspired by the difference we're making to protect the [00:02:00] environment. And the main characters of this new story are my heroes. Black women, scientists, teachers, artists, preachers, elders, youngers, , mothers, daughters, and sistren from around the world.
With the same mission as me to heal our relationship with nature. Welcome to Black Earth Podcast.
In this episode, we travel to my hometown South London to meet Rosa Adoo Kissi Debrah , aka Miss Dee. A beloved teacher, award-winning advocate and mother of three children with roots connecting her to Accra and London. Rosamund is making history and [00:03:00] changing laws to ensure clean air for everyone. She is a breath of fresh air, speaking truth to power with her genius and her life story.
So I wanted to start our conversation by asking you, how would you describe your relationship with nature?
Rosamund: My relationship with nature has its ups and downs. I think for me, pollution is not, my friend and my children seem to be more susceptible. To things in nature, sort of like tree pollen, grass, pollen, you know those mushrooms you see in the park.
So I have a frustrating relationship sometimes with nature because there are many things I can't control. We like to control everything, but nature is something I can't control. I spent seven years in Ghana and where we lived in Accra, in [00:04:00] Dansoman, there was a beach. And I spent a lot of time, um, going to the beach and with my friends, and I have very, very good memories of my childhood.
So I'm at peace with nature, although sometimes I think nature needs to give me a break.
Marion: You know, during your time when you went Ghana between the ages of seven and 14, do you see how you related with nature at that time? Do you see any similarities or differences between that experience and the way your kids relate to nature now?
Rosamund: That's a really interesting question. Any similarities now, probably, yes. Now because I'm more back in touch with nature, so I'm more aware of my surroundings and I walk an awful lot. Um, I walk maybe five times a week. My children, they're quite outdoorsy and they spent a lot of time in the garden when they were growing up.
So I was that parent that allowed them to climb trees [00:05:00] they were allowed to do in the garden what they wanted. So yeah, I'm at peace with nature. We have trees planted in my daughter's memory in different parts of the borough, so that's nice to see them coming up. So I actually take an interest in. To see them growing and things like that.
But I am very aware of nature and I like going to walk in parks and things. It gives me a sense of peace. Yeah. Cause there are times I have a very stressful job, so it does help. So people always say to me, what do you do to unwind? I, I, I love my music. Um, Ghanaian, hip hop. I like classical, um, jazz. , any sort of music, anything that allows me to switch off is good for me.
Yeah. When you've gone through the stuff I've gone through, you need something and it's not a judgment at all. Um, can I appreciate if people have lost children, why they tend to alcohol and drugs. Yeah. Cause you need to find a way to cope. [00:06:00] Um, mine was my faith, although I did fall out with God quite massively for quite a bit.
No, quite a bit indeed. I still went to church, but I, I just wasn't feeling it. I think I was so angry with, with, with God. But that's kind of resolved itself. Cause I think when I saw you yesterday, I'd just been back serving at church. And mine is music. Uh, music really does rule our life here cause my children are very musical and Ella was very musical.
And she, at the age of nine? At nine, she already was about 10 instruments. I just, um, accidentally, um, kicked over her, her bongo drums yesterday. Oh. Cause Ella's stuff is still all over the place. She had, um, the, the actual instrument which she played, I was surprised at, was the, the cornet. So we've got her, her, her cornet here in the house.
The one she played at school. They, they gave it to us. Wow. We have her. . [00:07:00] Um, yeah, we try and hang on to as much of her as we mm-hmm. as we can. W e are just this normal family that had something extraordinary happen to them.
Marion: Just before her seventh birthday, Ella was first admitted to hospital with a rare and life-threatening asthma condition. She wasn't born with asthma. From then on, her asthma grew significantly. She was in hospital 27 times with respiratory and cardiac arrests, and she had seizures for 28 months.
On one occasion, Ella had to be placed in a medically induced coma for three days to try to stabilize her condition. She died on the 15th of February, 2013 after a severe asthma attack. Ella was only nine years [00:08:00] old. Rosamund went to six different hospitals to get treatment for Ella. Throughout her illness, doctors never raised the issue of air pollution as a possible cause of her asthma.
This is major because they lived just 25 meters from the South Circular Road in Lewisham, one of the busiest roads in the UK with high levels of traffic pollution. It's only in the years after her death that Rosamund started to receive information, which led her to believe that air pollution could have contributed to Ella's sudden illness and death.
After six years of seeking justice, Rosamund managed to secure another investigation to review the cause of Ella's death. Initially Ella's death was thought to be caused by severe lung failure, but this new investigation looked into whether air pollution could have been a factor. This in itself was a [00:09:00] victory as it was very rare for a second inquiry into someone's death to be held.
It also showed how much work ment in her family had put in to raise people's awareness about how fatal air pollution is.
Rosamund: So what happened basically was we were putting the evidence together, then we had to go public with, or, or no, it was my lawyer's idea that although we had overwhelming evidence and it's had taken us years, so we had to be sure it would get through. And I remember her telling me we might have the best evidence ever, but you know, Jocelyn knows her stuff.
you do need to let the public know about your case. And I remember being incredibly reluctant because all I had known is people getting a really hard time. But she convinced me to speak to the media that was more her. And we did a video [00:10:00] on change.org and it kind of took off from there. And you know, there, there are never any words to thank the public.
Cause one of the things they did is they signed a petition. Which is probably about 175,000 now, can you believe it to ask the Attorney General to give Ella a inquest
Marion: In December, 2020, the second investigation into s Ella's death ruled that she died of asthma and exposure to excessive air pollution. If Ella had lived in a different area with less exposure to air pollution, would she still be.
Newsclip: Too little too late. A mother and her teenage daughter are suing the French state for not doing enough to combat air pollution. The two women are former residents...
Marion: in 2019, a mother and her daughter sued the French government for not doing enough to tackle air pollution, which had given them severe lung and breathing conditions [00:11:00] like Rosamund and Ella.
They lived near a busy road outside Paris, which was always filled with traffic. But the difference this time is that their doctor made the link between air pollution near their home and their health conditions.
Newsclip: My lung specialist diagnosed me with an allergy to pollution. He advised us to move away, so to protect my health and my daughter's health, we decided to move to a smaller town.
Since then, we haven't had any breathing problems
Marion: Ella is now the first person in the UK to have air pollution listed in their death certificate. Her death is a tragedy because it was avoidable
Rosamund: When Ella died that there was no music in this house for a year. A year. There was just silence. I, I would never want to go back to that again though.
Grief is [00:12:00] overwhelming. Grief is very physical. Grief is like being stabbed with a knife with no blood. It's very, very physical. Wow. Because that's how it felt when she died, that I've been stabbed in the stomach. It's really weird. I, I, um, if, if you haven't given birth, then um, I dunno whether this would make sense because when a baby comes out, there's like this relief and when she died, it was like the opposite thing happened.
Marion: So when we talk about air pollution, it's not the air that's toxic, it's what is in it. Air pollution happens when tiny particles or gases enter the air, which can cause harm if you breathe them in. In London, the two most deadly causes of air pollution are nitrogen dioxide and a particle known as particulate matter, the same causes that killed Ella, and [00:13:00] air pollution doesn't just affect us humans. It's also toxic to wildlife and plants and the soils beneath our feet. Air pollution is also a global issue. Every year, outdoor air pollution kills more than 4 million people.
Rosamund: What's happening is we are living longer, but we have more health conditions that that's all that's happening. You see? And air pollution is being linked to everything, cardiovascular, strokes, diabetes, suicide, miscarriages, stillborn. I've said to the governments, and I'll say it again, unless they clean up the air climate change will never be resolved. It affects biodiversity, acid rain. I could go on.
Marion: The quality of the soil
Rosamund: You see, so they can bury their head in the sands and say, it costs money. But the National Health Service, it's [00:14:00] costing them more money, about 20 billion a year to deal with air pollution. You know? Mm. You, you, you know, you have more people now who live near a, a main road. Who don't smoke, who have lung cancer? What's that about? Come on.
So our sources of air pollution come from transport emissions. They come from wood burning. They come from the construction industry and they come from farming ammonia.
I hope I haven't left something out, but they are the main sources. What have I learned? Everything. Everything eventually leads back to air. Young children should not be going around. Medicated up with inhalers. Young people should be about childhood, enjoying yourself, not fighting to breathe
Marion: In 2021, the Environmental Defense Fund published research which showed that [00:15:00] in London, toxic levels of air pollution from nitrogen oxide gas were 27% higher in schools with students from the most deprived areas than in schools with students from the least deprived areas. Their research also showed that in London, toxic levels of air pollution were 28% higher in schools with the highest percentage of students from black, Asian, and ethnic minority groups than in schools with the lowest percentage of students from black, Asian, and ethnic minority groups. If air pollution is an issue that can affect everyone, why are black and Asian people more exposed to it?
I wanted to ask you a question about inequality. You said that we, we shouldn't go there, but we have to go there. Go go there. Because I think addressing inequality is an important aspect of addressing air [00:16:00] pollution. So could you tell us a bit more about the links between social inequality and air pollution ?
Rosamund: Well in my research, what I found out is people in more deprived areas have more air pollution but this really isn't a, you know, says what gets on my nerves. Okay. It got on my nerves when Covid came out and it affected more ethnic minorities, especially black and Asians. Then there was all for, I dunno, two weeks or whatever, if it even lasted that long.
Oh, why is it this? Why is it that? And I thought inequality in health has always been there. When it comes to cardiovascular asthma or these other conditions, it is worse for those communities. Where's the urgency? And if you don't spot the urgency, you need to ask yourself why.
Marion: What perspectives or insights do you think black communities [00:17:00] in the UK can bring to conversations around air
Rosamund: We should talk about how it is affecting us. Mm, how it's affecting our health, the inequality, how things are dumped on, on our doorstep. Environmental racism. When I first started, I used to read about environmental racism, but all the studies were in America.
It was as if it didn't really exist. Here we should speak our truths. Uh, when you look at London, When you, there are stats there that shows ethnic minorities who, who are suffering. We have terrible health impacts and we need to be engaged. We need to be aware what's going on in our communities. We need to demand things because like I said, it, it, it is the government or council, they have a right to protect us.
Mm-hmm. . And we shouldn't say that this isn't our problem. We all breathe there. Um, and us as a community, We need to be engaged with the issue. Air pollution is our problem, but we need to be [00:18:00] part of the solution. We have a voice. We shouldn't sit there and let people speak for us, we know what impact it is having.
We need to be at the table. It is affecting us. Look at dementia, cardiovascular disease, strokes, diabetes. These are illnesses that are in our communities. These are illnesses that are linked to air. When it comes to health, air pollution is linked to it, and that's why it is our problem.
Marion: What is the solutions you think would make the most difference in the long term?
Rosamund: Oh, long term, you know, everything would need to be electrified, so from buses, boilers in the household or boilers need to be changed to heat pumps. That's a whole another conversation. More walking. Cycling and you, you and I have spoken about that. This country, we don't really cycle. I would always encourage people to walk and apparently research shows people are willing to walk up to two, two miles.
Wood burning. It's so carcinogenic oh goodness. [00:19:00] I mean, the fact that in Ghana sources of air pollution is cooking, all the wood, so why would you want to burn wood in your. And also, why am I dead against wood? It's something that only 8% of the population does. And yet when it comes out of the chimney, we all have to breathe it.
It's can you imagine someone with long covid living next to someone who's burning wood? Dreadful.
The other day I was on Twitter, a car advert came from nowhere, I thought, what's this about? So the same way the advertised cars, I would like there to be another advert about our health, which will help me out enormously.
Cause every time I think everyone knows about this topic, they don't. It depends where you get your news from. Look, the Guardian and places like that, they cover it in detail, but not everyone reads the Guardian and it needs to be brought down to basic level.
Councils should be doing monitoring and informing their residents what they're [00:20:00] breathing in and saying to them why it's really so you, they count cars and they do all these weird things. If for a particular month, the car usage, let's say August is really. You do readings for August, you show people that July, you had less cars, the pollution was lower. August, look at the car use and look what's going on. You have to give people the information. If you don't give the people information, how can they make informed decisions?
Marion: What are some of the personal choices that they can make? You know, whether it's you buy a diesel car?
Rosamund: They can work more short journeys and depending on where people are, it's not up to me to judge, but, you know, Sainsbury's local, even the word local tells you we can walk there. Um, and, and we need to, we need to walk more.
Anyway, I was speaking to someone about our diet and how it, it is very starchy carbohydrates. And apparently this is all down to people like my grandmother who used to have a farm who used [00:21:00] to go every day, so needed the energy. And we don't do that anymore, do we here? So we need to walk more. Um, what else can we do?
Oh, we need to put pressure on our council and our MPs. So there's a vote coming up and we need to make our, we need to make our voices heard on this topic, we are absent.
Marion: What are the most effective ways to do that? Oh, you can write to your council. Is it online?
Rosamund: Write to your MP, absolutely.
And people need transport for work. Some of them like cars. So if you can buy an electric vehicle, it is more environmental friendly. Diesel is passe. . Mm-hmm. it, it, yeah. We are moving , 2030, the whole world is moving to electric. Hopefully the buses,. Cars and things are seen as aspirational, but it is not always a good thing now that we know more.
So it's about knowing knowledge. I'm not saying people shouldn't, [00:22:00] um, give up driving altogether, but we need to make wise choices. If you are going to your local shop and you can walk, please do .,and unless we begin to drive less, we are going to continue to get very ill . Government, they need to implement W H O limits as a minimum to prevent future deaths.
They still haven't done that, so I am forced to bring out Ella's Law, which hopefully will be an update of the Clean Air Act.
Marion: What would Ella's law do?
Rosamund: Ella's law would be about raising, raising awareness would be part of it. Councils should be forced to monitor properly, not say the monitor's broken, get another one.
And you know where I live in Lewisham, there are these magazines that go out, I dunno whether it's quarterly, I don't think it's monthly. They should put, there should be readings for since the last month or the last quarter. And where we are now. Then [00:23:00] they should get a scientist to explain if it's high, what these mean. Where you are, the air pollution is this, this is what it means. And watch how people's behavior will be. Look, change is slow, but you've got to start somewhere. But by not monitoring it and ignoring it, it's not going to go away.
Marion: So you set up the Ella Roberta Family
Rosamund: Foundation? I did. When, um, she died, I set it up with Dr. Wallace who was Ella's consultant at Great Ormond Street, and he was very sad. He wasn't able to save her and like me, he wanted to know ultimately why she had died and why her asthma was so severe. But it was to help children in our area to warn people about the dangers of asthma.
When we started off, we didn't even have clean air there because remember, we didn't know air pollution was linked to her. So the foundation has [00:24:00] evolved as it has gone on, and it's Ella Roberta.Org. So please go to it. It it's, yeah, it's just from where we started to now. It's been an amazing journey, but I now feel my work is starting.
Now. It's more about advocacy. I don't see myself as an activist because I work with governments, I work with everyone, so I'm more an advocate and it's about getting the message out. I'm very proud of what I do, and although I don't formally teach in a classroom, I have now accepted that this is a form of teaching.
You know, Ella dying broke me, so going back to a class will be just too hard, but I, I accept now this is some form of teaching . When I look at how divisive we are meant to be. And yet when it comes to Ella, there might be the odd weirdo who has said things to me, but Ella crosses all[00:25:00] boundaries. I generally don't hear anybody say anything negative about her.
She would be really proud of that, but the British public really got behind it and I think part of my success is owed to them. And people think, God, you work so hard. I always think I need to find a way of paying them back somehow. And if I can get clean air for their children, it would be my way of saying thank you to them.
Marion: Thank you for joining us on this episode of Black Earth Podcast with our guest, Rosamund Adoo Kissi Debrah. Subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen to your favourite podcast. We are Black Earth, healing our relationship with nature. One conversation at a time.[00:26:00]