So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

This episode, Megan & Jennifer are joined by Ben Chiriboga about staying true to yourself, approaching everything with intentionality, and putting it all on the table.

Ben Chiriboga is the Chief Growth Officer at Nexl. He is a former practicing lawyer turned legal technology executive at Nexl, an all-in-one legal technology platform built to help lawyers, marketers, and business development professionals work together to grow their law firm. Alongside his work at Nexl, Ben speaks, writes, podcasts, and creates content about how technology is evolving the business of law. Ben has had the privilege of speaking to audiences at LexLatin Summit, LegalGeek, Legal Marketing Association, Marketing Partners Forum, as well as various attorney bar associations around the world.

Ben is on a mission to help lawyers love the business of law… just like he’s learned to. 

Learn more about our guest:
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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts - Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned practice, this podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

Ben Chiriboga: [00:00:00] I still think about this all the time, quite frankly, and like I don't really have a good answer. In a sense. Where I'm at right now is kind of like I'm relying a lot on the Say no because you feel like there's a bigger yes someplace, you know, step into hard conversations and set boundaries and.
Especially over the last sort of like 10 years, you basically just see how fundamental it is for you to basically be able to show up. And only recently have I sort of started to learn what it means to sort of show up for myself.
Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer. We're a legal marketer. We wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started. It must feel weird to be on the other side, right, Ben?
Or not [00:01:00] really?
Ben Chiriboga: Yeah, it's um, yeah. You know, it's, uh, it, it's interesting because, you know, even though I've done so many of those podcasts now, you know, I have a script. I, I don't know what people are gonna say usually, but I know, I know what's going to sort of happen. This of course feels really exciting.
I sort of feel like, um, you know, the vibes I'm getting right now, like when you were in junior high and going to your first dance and you didn't like even know what was gonna, you know, it's like you're dealing with a lot of complicated things on top of life.
Jen Ramsey: I'm blushing. No.
Ben Chiriboga: Is she gonna be there? And like, what am I gonna say?
Like, I'm not even sure. So that's the vibe right now, I feel. Does she like you? Junior high dance? Yeah.
Megan Senese: I mean, I, I, I love that we like you, Ben. We like you Ben,
Ben Chiriboga: But don't tell me because I don't, it won't make me like you guys, you know what I mean? Like, I need to taste a little bit. Yeah. We
Megan Senese: don't, I don't really like you that much.
Ben Chiriboga: Yeah.
Megan Senese: So the way that we framed today's episode is that we're, I'm [00:02:00] calling it Lessons Truth and Laying it all out there, which I feel like is super applicable, um, to our next guest. And I also think, Jen, you and I have gone through kind of different iterations of what laying it all out there kind of looks like for, for me, we know it's.
Pouring out my heart and soul on LinkedIn. Jen, for you that might look a little different. Like what? What does laying it all out there look like for you? Like, oh my. That's a
Jen Ramsey: hard question. Fuck you. Well, it's, it's kind of the opposite of you and maybe that's why we go together, like la la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.
Um, I don't really like to share a lot out there, um, in the public domain, but I think laying it all out there is, when I'm in a small group like this right now with our lovely guest, Ben, or one-on-one with people, or just small group, I really do [00:03:00] show up with. Like what you see is what you get. The energy I bring, I really actually feel that from the inside out.
Like I just love people and I get energy from people, and so I lay it all out there when I'm surrounded by, um, like-minded energetically, vibrationally, vibing people. How's that for an answer? I mean.
Megan Senese: I, I love that. And I think since we're just vibing, we also are wearing the same exact color and we didn't
Ben Chiriboga: Yeah, I was gonna say, did I like to miss a memo?
Megan Senese: No. But you all look good at pink. On Wednesdays we wear pink. Um, Jen and I both on
Ben Chiriboga: Wednesdays,
Megan Senese: we wear
Ben Chiriboga: pink.
Megan Senese: Jen and I both, um, arrived wearing the same outfit to our surprise. So we like to try, I try to do some mystery who's our guest. So Jen, why don't you kick it off and read our guest's bio.
I'd love to.
Jen Ramsey: So. Ladies, gentlemen, humans, super humans, everyone out there listening to us, we are so [00:04:00] excited to have a, a friend. Our friend, Ben Chiriboga join us today. He is the chief. I'm sure he needs no introduction, but I will give one anyway, he is the chief growth officer next. He is a former, we'll say recovering practicing lawyer turned legal technology executive at Axel, which is an all in one legal technology platform built to help lawyers.
Marketers and business development professionals work together to grow their law firm, and who doesn't want that? Alongside his work at Nexel, Ben Speaks, writes podcasts and creates content about how, about how technology is evolving the business of law. Ben has had the privilege of speaking to audiences at Lex Latin Summit.
Legal Geek Legal Marketing Association, Marketing Partners Forum, as well as various attorney bar associations around the globe. Ben is on a mission to help lawyers love the business of law, [00:05:00] just like he's learned to. I love that. That's very cool. So just a quick plug for Ben, subscribe to his podcast, the Legal Life, where he interviews legal professionals about their lessons learned from a life in legal.
So, Ben. Welcome.
Ben Chiriboga: Oh my goodness. Who is that guy? You know, here's the reality is mostly I take my car, my, uh, my cat to, uh, have, uh, his kidney stones taken out. That's what, that's what I do on Tuesdays. So, um, but uh, but I guess I get some other stuff done in between there. Well guys, it's so, it's so good to sit down with you and, you know, I'm really excited that you guys have taken this run with it.
I couldn't really think of two better people to kind of tap into. The, the, the general vibe of what is, um, what's important about, uh, kind of the people of legal, uh, and creating a space for that. So kudos to you.
Megan Senese: Oh, well thank you. We'll, we'll have to like steal the microphone back and forth from each other.
'cause we're we, you are our guest, so [00:06:00] don't, don't take, don't try to become the host. Now you're in the seat.
Ben Chiriboga: Yeah.
Megan Senese: I think what's really so super exciting, I mean, we, we hopeful that's coming through, but. Obviously, I think, you know, Ben, Ben, you and I go back, um, this Legal Life was one of the first podcasts that I was on, and I'm so appreciative of that.
That started my podcast journey, if you will, where I basically just was like, anybody wanna talk to me? And we had such a great time. Um, and that really started a, you know, a, a relationship. We've been able to work together. Jen and I have been able to come on things for Nexel. We've done webinars with you guys and it's just been really great to kind of see.
This kind of full circle moment where now I get to return the favor and, and put the spotlight on you, pun intended. And, um, I mean, you were one of the first people that we wanted to have on, and I think part of why we get along so well is because of all these truth bombs, right? That we [00:07:00] are sharing with the world, sharing about ourselves.
And, and so, uh, I wanna, I wanna talk a little bit about that. I do think that what we put out is a part of us, right? And it's sharing pieces of ourselves with the world, um, which is scary, like going to a junior high dance. And I wanna pull out something that you wrote about recently and who knows when this one will come out, so maybe people can go back.
But you said that you want to see every moment as a literal miracle because it is. So I wanna talk about it. I wanna talk about that. It's beautiful. Mm-hmm. And
Jen Ramsey: Also this yogi heart of mine is just bursting here. After hearing that quote,
Megan Senese: Tell us like, like, I think there's, there's what Jen was saying in the beginning, like, what you see is what you get.
Right? So there's people who might just write shit on LinkedIn Mm. And then not follow through with it. But I'm not, obviously I don't get that vibe from you. So like, writing it and then doing it. So talk to us about like, how are you doing that? How [00:08:00] are you taking every moment as a, as a, as a miracle? Like talk, talk to us about that.
Ben Chiriboga: I think that the first thing that comes up for me is, you know, we're recording this in the midst of the California fires, and I'll start with that sort of thing. So that's a, um, that's a, that's a tragic event. That's sort of happening right now. And, um, yet at the same time, you know, I, I have family affected by all of this and, uh, I think probably many at the same time.
You know, I'm also having this conversation with you right now. Now these things don't cancel each other out. These things don't really, um, these, these things basically coexist simultaneously at the same time. I think I bring this up because that sort of allows me this ability to kind of see what is miraculous about sort of everyday life, which is that there can be deep tragedy and deep sadness [00:09:00] while at the same time it's that that basically affords.
Kind of like the deep sense of joy that comes simultaneously. So, you know, that's, is it always easy to hold both of these things sort of simultaneously? Absolutely not. You know, it's, um, can you. Sometimes you could just get washed away with tragic things. Yeah. And you probably sort of should, you know, feel the deep sadness of it because maybe there's just basically something on the other side of it, but what's sort of happened to me or what's happened and how I sort of do this is kind of seeing how can I have these things kind of co-exist simultaneously at the same time That and just a deep sort of recognition that.
A million, trillion things basically had to happen to create the moment, basically that's happening right now. Now that's very, very high, you know, but if I just even think about it in my life, the left and the right [00:10:00] turns, that could happen. You can't say anything else, but just basically it's, it's a miracle of what has sort of happened and, um.
And I think that's, that's really sort of like these two things that kind of help me sink into, into the moment, which doesn't come naturally. I'm a person and my wife will tell you, I'm a person who is constantly sort of living in the future, both simultaneously what will happen, what's going to happen.
In some part, my job is to basically sort of live into the future. Um, and so I sort of try to hold both of these things and most of the time I fail, but it's kind of. Kind of part of being human, I think.
Jen Ramsey: I love that. It makes me think of, I think I bring this up all the time. My favorite podcast is Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach.
We can do hard things and they have this portmanteau called that They, they, they call brutal, which is, life is brutal and life is beautiful. And then life is beautiful. And I think [00:11:00] it goes to exactly what you were saying right there, Ben. Just, it's like, there, it's, it's not mutually exclusive. Two things can be true at the same time.
We are incalculably lucky to be here at this moment and um, I agree with you. I think it's really cool. We've all gotten out of our corporate jobs and we are now running our own businesses and how cool, like all of those little, like you said, million things that added up to, we are three paths crossing right at this moment.
I just feel. Beyond grateful for that, so. Mm-hmm.
Ben Chiriboga: That helps. I just, yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Megan Senese: Talk to us about how you got here, right? Mm-hmm. Before you're posting and pouring your heart out. On LinkedIn. And I also think you wrote something pretty recently about turning 40, right? About Sure. Yeah. And, and how that has some like new reflections.
And so you talked about that. Um, I know that you have [00:12:00] shared your journey with alcohol and what that has looked like. So take, take us all the way, take us all the way back to young, young Ben. And your life as a lawyer, in case there's people who don't know you now, they will. Right? But ta ta take us back.
Take us back to the beginning ish.
Ben Chiriboga: Sure, I'll jump in from that, from that post. 'cause I think that post has a lot to do and it'll sort of frame a little bit in that post. There was basically one point of that post, which was as I sort of reached 40, I was kind of reflecting on the fact that a lot of my, a lot of my life, let's say from like 18 to to to 40 had really been guided in some part.
Toward, um, achieving achievement effectively success, um, as a function of sort of, um, success as a function of things to do. Um, on the way to, to whatever, whatever it was. For [00:13:00] me, success was, you know, at first getting into law school, then becoming a practicing lawyer, then succeeding as a lawyer, then getting outta law school, then getting into legal tech, then you know, helping, starting a legal tech company, making that company successful across all metrics, all of this.
And I hit sort of 40, I. I think a lot of people sort of start to reflect on, on things, but, but for me specifically it was, um, you know, what was driving sort of like the success, what was the need to drive the success and, um, through both therapy and sort of just inner reflection. And I think a lot of this also started to come, um, up.
Kind of going through the pandemic. Um,
Jen Ramsey: yeah,
Ben Chiriboga: It was ideas around safety basically, and, and feeling and feeling safe or wanting to feel safe for them, through the idea of success. And, um, and I think that's kind of like where the [00:14:00] start of this journey sort of started, at least from the perspective of professionally, let's say.
Um, what was I seeking? What had I gone through? So, so again, my story is, is, is. You know, I, I sort of go to undergrad, I graduate, go to law school, start practicing, um, throughout my twenties, you know, really. Through my mid twenties, up until my thirties, I'm sort of practicing as a lawyer. Um, you know, at that time I started to sort of have a little bit of a break, an emotional break because, and, and I didn't know this, I've only sort of done this.
Looking back, what I realized is, you know, I was chasing a sense of success. Within an industry that, or at least within what, what I was doing at that point in time, which is really not feeding me. Um, I liked being a lawyer, but, but working within that environment, um, and then working within that environment without having done some of the inner work that I think that you need to, so [00:15:00] that, so that you can, you can be in there, you know, at that point in time I was really sort of.
I, I was, I was, I was kind of pursuing something that didn't really fit me. And when you do that, and when you're misaligned in that way, um, of course it starts to bleed out in other ways. And for me, it was just, just abusing and not taking care of myself, in any real form or fashion. Um, you know, I turned 30 and.
What I realized was, you know, I had to make a switch. So on the outside I started, I started a journey to get myself into a new place, and that place, let's say, was legal tech. And, um, and while, while on the outside it was, uh, it was a much better fit in terms of my personality, what I, the people, the dynamics.
And, and because of that, um, you know, I was again able to succeed at the end of that. And so this was through all my thirties. At the end of that. Next is now Nexel is now doing well. [00:16:00] All the, all the rest of it. And you know, I, chief Growth Officer, I have all of these sorts of things and what I've realized is I've now come to a point where I can kind of reflect on well.
Yes, you made a switch and you thought you wanted to get into somewhere, but what is the underlining of this? And, and that was sort of a sense of sort of like safety, um, and need and, and being driven by, by safety rather than, um, maybe some, something else. And maybe a lot of people can resonate with success being driven by the need for safety.
And I guess at 40 now, what I've come to realize is, you know, that. That safety can basically only be given by yourself. You know, there, there will never be something that will, that will help you feel more safe, as it were. It's something that, uh, you both simultaneously maybe just need to do your work to sort of figure out why you feel unsafe and reconcile with that, while also simultaneously understanding that you [00:17:00] know, it's not gonna come from.
The next bump up in your title or a sense of control over, over something. That dynamic is not where I think that safety sort of comes through. And so to get back to the post, you know, the post is really about trying to say, okay, you know, I am, I, I understand this maybe about myself now and what I see.
And so. Because of that. Now I wanna talk a little bit more authentically about this because I don't, I don't feel driven by this. And, and, and in some part I think just 'cause I didn't need to pursue the safety in some sort of, some sort of very caged way of, okay, if like I have the perfect image and say the thing, something, it's, it's all gonna kind of work out, right?
It's, I'm sort of mostly giving, giving myself some sort of sense of safety as it were. So. Yeah, those are just,
Jen Ramsey: I'm like, I feel like this is a therapy session for myself because I literally have never heard it put that way before. Um, I wrote it [00:18:00] down feeling, feeling safe through success, what you said, and that is just like I'm having like a, um, a mind blow emoji, you know, like, holy crap, is that, what do I, I think I do that too.
And so it makes me wonder, Ben, just not that these things are related or anything. Did, how did fear ever enter into this picture as well for you? Like just fear of, um, not, you know, maybe not wanting to take the next step or just fear of holding you back from what you knew you were designed and made to do.
Just curious about the fear factor aspect of it at all, if there was one. Yeah.
Ben Chiriboga: I think for me, where fear comes in is fear to not succeed, I think. Mm-hmm. It, it's, it's like the drive, basically. That's, that's where things come from, right. I, I'm not, I'm not afraid, I, I don't fear to [00:19:00] do something, you know, taking a leap into a new industry that all of this kind of stuff, you know, that's, that's, that's not the fear for me.
Yeah. The fear is more around, because I was basically. Chasing that for purposes of some sort of degree of safety, right? So, right. So that's, that, that was kind of like the motivation and, and in that sense, look, these things are not. Like we sort of started, they're not mutually exclusive. I mean yeah, you would, it would be remiss.
Of course it's not coming from a sustainable place. 'cause living life out of fear that that's, that's there's only so much in there. Right. Uh, effectively too. And it, and it's not a sustainable loop 'cause it's just kind of more of a spiral. Right? It's like, yes, you're, you're, you're driven by joy there.
There's more joy, you know, something that, but fear just kind of will dwindle down, down, keep you down. Right, exactly. So. Yeah, the, the, the thing is, but these things are mutually exclusive. That fear sort of drove me to, to succeed, you know, in, in some sense or drove the [00:20:00] pursuit of success in this way. And that okay, that, that is what it is.
You know, that is what it is. That's one way to relate to that. Um. That's one way to sort of harbor that energy. If we can like to use energy terms, you know, that's a way to harbor that energy that does come up. It's again, how intentional are you being somebody who's just blindly driven by fear because they, you know, because, well, let's talk about the fires again.
Okay. That, that, that is a fear response in some sense. But, you know, fear in another dynamic is, it can be very corrosive, you know, effectively.
Megan Senese: Well, and it's, it's also about. I think letting go of what you thought the picture of success was. There can be fear there too, right? And redefining what that success is.
And if you're constantly chasing something, there's always. There's always something better. There's always something bigger. There's always more, more, more, more. And, I feel like fear and anxiety kind of go [00:21:00] hand in hand, and so that speaks to me very deeply. But I, I think I like the concept of if you're chasing.
If you're, if you're searching for joy, then you're gonna find joy. If you're searching, because you're, if you're running because you are fearful, then you're always gonna be looking over your shoulder. It's not gonna, you're never going, you're never gonna get that safety right. And redefining what that safety looks like is also kind of mind blowing in a lot of ways, right?
Like. We are kind of programmed in a lot of ways, or at least I was programmed, like, you get a good job and you get a stable job. And for me, I was the first one in my family to jump. I didn't jump careers, but I jumped from firm to firm and that was like, no, no, no, you go and you stay at the same place and you don't move around.
And so that was, that was just the kind of step into like, well. I can move around. And that, that's, that's still safe to me. And then taking the jump into [00:22:00] being an entrepreneur is a completely different kind of safety now. 'cause now I'm like, you know what? I am the only person responsible for how well, um, we do, or how badly we do, versus me being contingent on or reliant on like a company to kind of feed me.
So it's Redfin, I think sometimes redefining what that safety looks like too. Once you let go of the fear. 'cause we, we spent a lot of time talking with people about that, so
Ben Chiriboga: Yes, totally. Totally. I think, um, it's, it's complex. Fear is very complex, you know, but, but, but you know, if you're using the fear to fuel you towards something that it's not going to, uh, uh, eventually, you know, it's just, you're gonna run into a, into a dead end, even if it has outward.
Manifestations of something that is successful. What? Yes, exactly. Well, it can,
Megan Senese: At some point you can say, this doesn't serve me anymore. Right. Um, this doesn't serve me anymore. So one of the things that we are asking all of our guests, [00:23:00] which is another just like light, light, not heavy question, is what, what, what makes you human?
Ben Chiriboga: Ben? Wow. Let's just go with, uh. Yesterday. Yesterday I was, um, I was walking through the park, you know, I'm walking through the park on the, on the way back home. I'm trying to walk now 'cause I have a, I have a back sort of issue and, um, so I usually ride a bike, but, but, but yesterday I'm walking and so, you know, I'm going through and I'm just.
I'm looking at people around the park. It's a beautiful park right now, right? And uh, it's a beautiful time of year right now in Florida and people are just sort of out. And I get this, um, I get this sense of like, at the end of my life. Literally on my deathbed, just to keep it light. Like what would I want to happen?
So I'm looking at all these people, people walking their dog, little kids at the park, uh, uh, you know, birds flying over the pond, [00:24:00] people just interacting, sunsets going, it's idyllic, right? This whole thing. And I just think like, you know, it triggers in me like, what would, what would you want to have happened in your life?
Three or four things that basically at the end of your life, what, what would it, now, you know, it's the first time in 40 that I've ever actually even done this or even like, asked myself to even think about this. And, and it came out so easy for me that it was, that in and of itself was sort of shocking.
So to, you know, for me, this is how I'm gonna answer these questions. It's like, what it means to be human for me is sort of. Living these things, living day-to-day life with these things that I'm hoping at the end of my life have happened. These are things like, I hope my wife has felt supported throughout her life by me.
I hope that, you know, I deliver something to people. Find [00:25:00] useful and that makes a difference in their life. And it was so shocking to me because in some ways, do I live my life day to day like that? Yeah. In a way I, I think I do. But what was even more clarifying was okay, but. These things. I could basically be doing it most of the time, most of the day with this, with this idea in mind.
You know, I could, I wrote them all down. There were like 10 of them, and, and I stepped back and I was like, I can easily be a supportive spouse to my wife. You do it right now. Yes, I can do that right now all the time. So I think it's like, um, that's. In some sense, you know, to me humans are kind of like, to me, to just live your life intentionally.
In, in a sense, yes, that's, that's maybe it.
Jen Ramsey: I love that word, intentional. We'll have to count how many times you said it on this podcast then. I love it. I love it so much. Well, it also,
Megan Senese: it also sounds like without it being morbid, and then we'll get into the, to the like formal questions, but that, [00:26:00] that you, what keeps you human is almost a sense of like.
There's an end and there's an impact. Yeah. Right. And like, I don't wanna say like, keeps me human, is that I'm thinking about mortality, but it, it, there is a piece of that, like, what's, what's my legacy? What do I wanna leave behind? What do I wanna make sure that I've accomplished in a joyful way? That's sort of what I'm also hearing.
Yeah. From, from, from you a little bit. I don't know if that, if that resonates at all, but
Ben Chiriboga: Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. But you know, in a sense it's like. It's like, yeah, legacy, you know, and we could go so far out and like whatever we do, you know, bleeds through and all, all of that kind of thing. But, but it's, in some sense, even if you don't wanna go there, it's actually really much easier.
Which is like, it's like, no, don't wait to be, don't wait to live your life at the end. Instead, you could be doing these things right now if that's what you want to be your legacy. That basically needs to happen right now. As I talk [00:27:00] to, you know, Jen and Megan on this podcast right now, that's, that's like, that's it.
This is your opportunity, right, right here, right now, every single moment, to connect it to the other, it's like literally a miracle, you know, that any of this has even happened. Yeah. And it's for you, you know, at this moment right now. Yeah.
Jen Ramsey: Fear be damned, right. Don't let fear hold us back from living in the moment, being kind, showing up, you know, like or doing, taking the plunge, the leap of faith or whatever it is.
Yes. I love that.
Megan Senese: I think women get asked this a lot. It's sort of like work-life balance, and we were talking about this. With one of our last guests and we're like, do men even get asked this question? I'm not like, we're flag balance and we said no. And so I'm glad you picked it. Yeah. And so the question that you picked is how do you set boundaries between work and personal life?
Especially when all of us, whether you are in legal tech or legal marketer, or business develop, or MarTech or a lawyer or CTO or CIO in a law firm, we know that. The [00:28:00] law life. This is when My New Yorker, long Island law Life, when the law life is all like, can be really consuming and time intensive and urgent.
So how have you found the balance between those two, between your work and your personal?
Ben Chiriboga: You know, I brought up this question because I don't actually have an answer. It's more like I wanted to just talk about it. You know, it's like I still think about this all, all the time. Quite frankly, and like I don't really have a good answer in a sense, you know, where, what, where I'm at right now is kind of like I'm relying a lot on the Say No because you feel like there's a bigger Yes someplace.
You know, that's one thing that I kind of like to lean on and it, and it gives. It gives me a sense of direction around this. Well, let me step back. That's because basically I want people to sort of, well, one you everything that you just heard about me, you know, I'm like, kind of like, oh, the moment's.
So pregnant with, with [00:29:00] everything, with potential. On top of that, you know, it's like I'm kind of wired for motion action going, so boundaries are really hard for me, you know, in a sense. So that's one, you know, and then second. You know, I, I, you know, I, I don't like to not like, have people like me. You know?
That's basically it. And I, and a sense of, and a sense of sense of, you know, there's people pleasing, there's all of this and, you know, it's, it's all of this kind of thing. So these sort of things. But at the same time, you know, I've also had the ability to. Step into hard conversations and set boundaries, and especially over the last sort of like 10 years, you basically just see how fundamental it is for you to basically be able to show up.
And only recently have I sort of started to learn what it means to sort of show up for myself in a, in a way. So, so these, these, [00:30:00] all of this is sort of swirling around, but on boundaries, you know, I'm, I'm still relying on this. No for Yes, and, and that's some way that gives me a framework for thinking about it and more importantly communicating it.
And then the second is kind of like this idea of somebody was explaining it around like, you know, boundaries may be another way of saying it is something like rules of engagement more so it's like you're free to do whatever. But if you do, you know, this is how I'm going to, how, how I have to sort of react in some, in some sense.
So this is kind of like everything that I'm, so this is why I brought it up. 'cause I don't actually have a good answer. I just wanna hear you guys sort of like, think about, but I love how
Jen Ramsey: honest and candid, I love that. I love that. I don't know if anybody has a great answer. Uh, and it, you know, because it's, that's, it's a really hard question to answer.
Megan Senese: But Megan, it comes. No, I don't have the answer either. Um, it, it comes up all, it comes up all the time. And actually, I was going to say, it comes up so much that [00:31:00] I, um, created a decision tree, um, for our clients because it is. Did you? I'll send it to you, Jen. Okay. I had no idea. Basically it's, do I, you know, do I say yes?
Do I take this on you? Can we, I've reframed it a bunch of times because I think getting comfortable with what those boundaries are. If you haven't done the work, if you've never been used to saying no, if your entire career has been, I'm the yes person. I'm going to do everything. That's how I've gotten, gotten ahead.
And then you get to the point where like, shit is overflowing, literally. Um, and I have kids at home that are sick and all the things. You need some backup or some person to be the bad guy sometimes, and this does come up a bunch with our, my. Women lawyers in particular, but there's a decision tree where it says, how will this help me?
Right. So that you can make space for the Yes. And this, it, it's a little bit more like logic instead of just like, I feel like I should say no, but I'm not really sure, like why, and so people have said it's helpful. It's not really [00:32:00] that groundbreaking, but it just walks people through a little bit more of a, like a logical, like if this, then that.
Right. And, and so we'll send, I'll send it to you after, so maybe it will, maybe it will help you.
Ben Chiriboga: I get this because, you know, it's kind of arming yourself and giving yourself permission a little bit. Yeah, too, I think that's, that's really what, it's the truth. I think a lot of people need just to give themselves permission, you know?
Yeah.
Jen Ramsey: Yeah. I think, I think this is, I think this will be of interest to lawyers who listen to this, who might be contemplating. Their own jump or career change. So,
Ben Chiriboga: or mortality.
Jen Ramsey: Or mortality. What advice would you give to a lawyer listening to this podcast who might find themselves in a similar position as you were when you were practicing law and it wasn't completely fulfilling or purposeful for you [00:33:00] and you were.
You were thinking about your next move, taking that leap of faith going into business for yourself, what, what advice would you give similarly situated people who are listening?
Ben Chiriboga: Somebody explained this framework for me, so I'm gonna use it like the good answer and the real answer. You know, and, and again, it's like these things are mutually exclusive, but sometimes we need it.
The good answer is it goes something like this and it's, look, I, I'm just, I'm just, I've said this before, like, I went to like a second tier law school, graduated in the bottom half of my class. You know, I wasn't in like, it's, it's, it's, um. This is all just to say and, and also that's fine. You know? Sure.
That whatever, you know, and, um, but this is just to sort of paint a picture, which is, you know, the legal industry is now so wide and what's happening is so dynamic. I'm not saying that I can give you a step-by-step [00:34:00] plan for basically how to become a legal tech executive at a successful company.
Mm-hmm. No, I can't. But what I can promise you is that there's a dynamic. Where you are, you are doing work that feels both creatively and meaningfully, sort of like pursuant. And you can do this in, in some sense, look, I was 30, I didn't have a family, I wasn't married, da, da, da. All of this kind of stuff with the obvious disclosures that smart people who are listening to this understand.
There's also just the frame, the bigger frame. And I was as guilty as everybody else at 30 years old. I didn't even know that all of this was even possible. Right. And I made the jump just because I could, you know? Sure, yeah. That, that was just it, uh, driven by what we were saying, some sort of degree of success and all of that kind of thing, and just ambition, you know, effectively.
But now I've been in here for 10 years and I've seen every nook and cranny of what the industry is sort of evolving, and I can, I can confidently say there's something. So that's kind of the good answer, the good answer. [00:35:00] There's a real market here for that. That's, that's something. We'll, we will, to your, to your side, like the real answer is something like, there is something unique for every person, basically.
And like, you're, you're not a mistake, you know, effectively there's a, there's, there's literally only one, one of you. And that's not just some, some strange thing, you know, effectively. It's like, and it's just you have a unique perspective. The end, you know, that's what I, that's what I go through in the podcast.
And what I, I, I did an interview with somebody at a podcast and they kind of said something like, you know, I go through the hero's journey, you know, which is, which is, you know, the hero's thrust into something. And then they go through and they learn something and they come out the other side, uh, basically as, as a changed person.
And then the person wrote back and said, oh, I've, I don't really, I've never thought of my life as like a journey, like a hero's journey. I'm like, well, we just did it right now. I just like I showed you. So basically, you know, everybody, [00:36:00] everybody is living your, this unique life and, and this is truly out there for you.
So you know whether or not you walk it. I like to think that eventually you will, you are to get forced or you sort of do it intentionally. There we go. Bing, bing, bing. I get, I don't know what my score is at the end of this, but we'll tally it up. Yes, exactly. But that's, that's something like the good answer, the good, the good answer that comes from, from like my heart, basically something, you know, it's like there's something unique for you.
Basically there's something unique about you.
Megan Senese: Hmm. I mean, I love that. Okay. That's a
Jen Ramsey: Beautiful place too, it's the mic drop. It's a mic drop. That's a mic drop moment. And that's why I love this podcast. 'cause I do think it's, I think we have really amazing inspirational people on That was I, and I love that shit.
But no, it's just, it's supposed to be uplifted. This is, this is really part of our goal of our podcast is to make people feel good and hopeful and unique and, um, just, and I, that was just the most. [00:37:00] Beautiful answer. So thank you for sharing that with us, Ben, and thank you for sharing your time with us and for being our guest today.
We are so grateful. I feel very lucky to have met you and I know Well, our paths will just keep crossing. That's the beautiful thing about Destiny. Oh my
Megan Senese: gosh,
Jen Ramsey: I love this
Megan Senese: so
Jen Ramsey: much.
Ben Chiriboga: Thank you for holding this space and making this, it's, uh, it's great. No, really, if nothing else, if you're listening to this and you're like, just remember, these are three people who live in the legal industry and this is sort of what's happening right now.
So if you need more of it, you know, yeah. This isn't, and every single day I meet more and more and more and more people, so, so whatever it is that this is, you know, and if you're in a place where you're like, well, you know, this is. This is here, this is, this is, this is happening. This is reality, right?
Basically,
Megan Senese: yes. This is here. Yeah, this is happening. This is reality. Yeah. I love it. I love that so much. Jen, do you wanna, do you wanna close us out with our, with our closing?
Jen Ramsey: Well, Ben, you know, I'm a yogi, so I like to close [00:38:00] out, our podcast with Stay Humans, stay inspired. Imma stay, go out into the world.
Be good to yourself. Be good to others. Thank
Megan Senese: you so much.
Ben Chiriboga: Alright, y'all, thank you so much.
Megan Senese: If you're looking for more information about how to grow your business, visit us at www.stage.guide. Sharing is caring. Send this podcast link to someone you love.