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Chasing the Game: Youth Soccer in America is a weekly podcast for soccer parents, coaches, and players who want to understand how youth soccer development really works in the United States.
Hosted by two dads, filmmaker Liron Unreich and investor Matt Tartaglia, the show covers everything from grassroots soccer to elite pathways like MLS NEXT and ECNL. Combining data, real experience, and expert insights from academy directors, college coaches, and former pros, each episode explains what families truly need to know.
Weekly episodes focus on the core aspects of youth soccer: player development, coaching culture, college recruiting, tryouts, travel costs, and the challenges of youth sports parenting in today’s competitive environment.
For families navigating youth soccer’s complex system, Chasing the Game offers practical advice, credible voices, and relatable stories from two dads working to make sense of American player development, one episode at a time.
Matt, I don't know if you know this, but what does making it actually mean?
What is our goal?
Is it college?
Is it a pro contract, a scholarship?
Is it a healthier kid?
A kid who loves to play soccer at 18?
Do you and your kid have the same answer?
And did you ever actually ask him?
Because if you don't define the goal, the system will define it for you.
The badge starts to feel like the goal.
The next team feels like the goal.
The first contract feels like the goal.
But what if signing the first pro contract is not making it?
What if it is just the next phase?
Yeah, this is where the conversation with Dr.
Chris Platts gets important.
It's unique for us.
Cr. Platts followed hundreds of young players over more than a decade, and what he found is
that most families are making big decisions without clear answers to simple questions.
So today we're talking about what making it really means, why 18 to 23 can be such a
defining window, why a bigger badge is not always a better environment, why late
developers often get missed, and why parents have to understand the environment their
child is in.
This is Chasing the Game Youth Soccer in America, PhD.
Liron: Dr. Chris Platts,
welcome to Chasing the Game.
tell us a little bit about yourself.
Chris: Yes.
I'm now working as a career
coach in professional football.
Um, my path into it is I undertook
a PhD. And that had 303 players.
I then took those 303 players and I
followed them for the next 12 years, which
gave me a really big, independent piece
of research into career trajectories.
Over the course of doing that, I
found that I could do three things.
We could begin to predict the
future via patterns in the data.
If we pass that on to young players
and their families, then we can
help them plan for that future.
And the third thing is, by doing that,
we start to allow young players, parents
to take ownership of their career.
And it really frustrated me that
for, many other professions, we
have career guidance, but for young
footballers we don't really have that.
And all of a sudden I was sat on.
mountain of data that could be that.
So the overall end game is to get
this data into as many hands as
I possibly can so that I can help
those young players through their
families to thrive through football.
Matt: was it a standard age where
you started following the players
Chris: They were between 16 and 18.
The very first question was, how many
got a professional contract So we had
to zero the data basically to give
us a starting line and then from that
point, trace them after year one.
Where are they after year two?
Where are they After year three?
Liron: when does a something like
this turn from academic to practical?
Chris: Let's start with why that's the
first question over the course of the
PhD, it changed to a lifelong mission,
something that meant something to me.
I sat in focus groups
with those young players.
303 of them, and they, they opened
up in a way that I never, ever
thought that they were going to do.
There were three, three to
four months of data collection.
And the stories, the way that they
spoke to me about how they were
treated, the, um, certain instances
that had occurred to them, their
hopes, their dreams, their honesty.
I, came out in many of the interviews
in a little bit of sort of shock
Over the course of that period,
turned into this can be my career.
And from that point, I think I
started to have a dream, which was.
I can tell these young players
and their families so much useful
information that helps them to
navigate these choppy waters.
And you know what?
hardly anybody out there being
honest and transparent with them,
and I don't have to preach to them.
The way I now do this as a business
is I simply help them piece
together the data that I have so
they make sense of it themselves.
A little bit.
Like if I threw Lego pieces on
the top of this desk and said,
what do you think that is?
You, ah, dunno.
But bit by bit, once if I, you know,
start putting it together, turn the
pages of the manual and after a bit
you start to go, oh, okay, it's a boat.
I, I see how this is coming together.
And that is the trick for young players
and their families to give them the time
and the space to begin to conceptualize
and understand this themselves.
Matt: what's the age range of the
players that you're working with now,
are they all at professional academies?
Are they all at prem academies?
Chris: from 13 to 20.
one, for example, was in an
academy, walked away because of
how it was and came to me one is a
goalkeeper who's probably about to be
released at the end of this season.
my work sits best in the space of 14 as
they start to prepare for when things
get really serious up to essentially
coaching them through the first five
years of a professional contract.
Because getting a professional
contract at the age of 18
doesn't mean you get a career.
It means you've got a first contract.
And what we really need to make
sure that we do in that space is
convert that into a career that's
gonna last 10 years, 12 years.
Not something where you think,
brilliant, I've got a pro contract at 18.
Liron: how do you define as you
are working with young players,
what is making it, what, what is
that actually, what's a success?
Chris: it's not for me to decide what
success is, What does making it look like?
We throw out phrases making it, or I'd
love to be a pro, but out yet I've met
professional players who have played.
Six seasons at League two, so say
the fourth division in, in the uk and
will say things like, I never really
made it, which is their own internal
perception of how good they could
have been and where they ended up.
And I've met people who had one season
in League two and go, but I made it.
I have my little bit of my dream.
And so again, using the data,
what are you trying to achieve?
There are some lads who I've spoken
to and they go, if I can pay my
bills doing this or if I can go
around the world and play football
that, that I'm, I'm good with that.
because where you go in your
career is key, depending on
where you're trying to get to.
And I say this all the time
of, we wouldn't just sit in
a path and start driving.
We would think, well,
where's the end point?
Oh, we're going there, right?
So the end demand road, I need to go left.
And, and that is essentially what
we can do with this data to have a
more transparent conversation about
what you need to do it is absolutely.
About trying to get a player to
think, yeah, what am I trying to do?
Matt: Um, Chris, I know you're a,
you're a super fan of the pod and,
uh, you, there are some similarities.
What you're talking about around
transparency and actually why we started
this as two dads who have been trying to
navigate the youth system in the US and
while it's, it's incredibly different,
um, there are probably more similarities
than people believe that there are.
And we've heard that from, from
some of the inbounds that we get.
And we do now have four professional,
uh, for four professional levels at
the men's in, in the men's game in
this country, which means there are
true pathways for kids to become a pro.
And those look very different
because we also have college as
a big part of it here in the us.
So while it's, it's incredible thing
that there's more pathways for kids to
be able to pursue their dreams, it's
also created even less transparency in
a lot of ways and a lot more decision
points for players and parents to
understand, quote unquote, like what does.
I made it or I will make it, or I
will be a pro mean, which I think is
why we wanted to have you on, because
so much of this is actually very
relevant for the kids who are pursuing
it at that level and the families
that are pursuing it at that level.
And it's not easy.
And there's a ton of questions and
there is not a lot of clarity, and
I think we're all trying to surface
as much as we can and experts like
you who can bring some of that to the
table to be part of that conversation.
Chris: my first, bit of advice for
those parents would be to start
with why why are we doing this at a
good little task that I will do with
young players and their families?
ask your son or daughter, why
are you playing football and what
is it you are trying to achieve?
Liron: Making your dad proud.
Chris: but, but that could be it.
Liron: Uh.
Chris: It could be, you know, they,
they might turn around and say
that and, and, and then the task
is let them go and write that down.
And you write it down for yourself.
why am I doing this and what
am I trying to achieve through
this journey into football?
And it's amazing how many times
the answers aren't the same.
most parents will put down things
like, I want them to have a purpose.
I want them to get satisfaction.
It's the same things that we
would say about any career.
To give them some belief in
themselves to build confidence.
Right.
Well, if we're in it for this and you
are in, an academy that is battering
your son or daughter, ruining their
confidence, they are having to play
injured and they're, they're not happy.
Well, there's your answer.
Get out.
there's an, there are other route into
this that don't have to fulfill that.
And I have come across so many parents
who have said, you know, we look back
at pictures of him now when he was in
that academy and it just wasn't even in.
It was a fake smile.
Um, I've met a parent he talked about
how awfully this coach treated his kid
and the mental health impacts that it
had on his child, but he kind of, they
stuck with it because they were like, but
this is a coach who's played, you know,
he's played at the professional level.
So these whys, what are we doing this for?
Why are we doing this?
They provide the blueprint for
you as a family, for you as, as,
as the humans in this process.
And you have to protect yourself
because the clubs, they're using
your son or daughter as an asset,
not because it's like, not because
they think that they're gonna turn
them into wonderful human beings.
They either wanna make money off the game.
That's it.
So you have to be the anchor.
You have to be the foundations
upon which you make decisions.
And if that means walking away from a
certain space because this isn't good
for your child, then you have to have
to be in a space to be able to do that.
And having the foundations
in place is key to that.
Liron: this is fascinating I don't
want to generalize, but in America
there, there's this concept of you
work hard, you're gonna get somewhere.
when you looking at these data
sets do you separate this idea of,
uh, how much of it is hard work?
How much of it is talent,
Matt: Just to tag onto that, I'd love
to hear some of the trends that you take
from the data that you're also sharing
and that's relevant for kids across
the, the groups your working with.
Chris: Yes.
So two parts to the data.
There's the experiences of the young
players you are going to be bottom
of a hierarchy and there are ways you
are gonna be treated that you have
to be ready for, and you have to be
able to thrive in those situations.
then there are the data that
are the quantitative data, the
the trends over time, and those
things include, so for example.
One that surprises many people.
If you are in a football academy at the
Premier League level there's an 81% chance
that you are going to get a professional
contract at 18 somewhere, and people will
go I thought it was 1%, that make it.
That's because making it is, it isn't.
Getting a contract to 18 Premier League
clubs will stack their under 21s with
players who they know and, and the amount
of clubs that I speak to and behind the
scenes, they will tell me the same thing.
We have an under 21s program, we have
to play those games, but the players
that are in the under 21s are probably
not good enough for our first team
because at the age of 19 or 20, if you
were good enough for our first team,
you'd be in it, but they have to fulfill
these fixtures with them under 21.
So players are getting
professional contracts at 18.
Then they're in this under 21
situation and with no chance
of getting to the first team.
Now, of course the club doesn't
tell them that, we know that in the
first five years of a professional
footballers career between the ages
of 18 and 23 across the 300 players,
five moved in five years, Five.. So
players who get a pro at Tottenham,
let's use Tottenham as an example,
have got a pro at Tottenham, right?
You need to start thinking about getting
some loan moves and going, showing
the world that you are good enough.
'cause if you stay at Tottenham,
this isn't gonna happen for
you in in their under 21s
Like you need to either be at the
Tottenham first team, Archie Gray,
or you need to be out on loan
showing the world that you can play
men's football and that's that.
And so you need to prepare for five moves.
Otherwise, players will just sit in
the under 21s thinking, this is great.
I'm getting four grand a week.
And then as I've said before, nothing
comes of it because they haven't
gone and played men's football.
Harry Kane, he went on loan here.
He went on loan there.
Yeah, he did.
He went, he went to Norwich.
He like, he was out making mistakes,
developing himself because,
well, first of all, arsenal
They let him go and then Tottenham
didn't think he was ready, so.
That is how you then
start to build a career.
Matt: I was gonna say, forget
the footballing piece of
this for a second, right?
If you're 18 and you're about to
be on a journey of playing for five
different professional clubs to try
to get to wherever you're trying to
get to, um, just the mental challenge
of doing that, especially if you're
coming from a top professional academy.
I don't know if you have the numbers
around it, but the percentages of
kids who end up playing on the first
team, whether it's in England or
one of the top five countries, is
probably very small at that stage.
Chris: Absolutely.
Yeah, it is.
there's, there's another element of this,
which is the late developers, and this
has become a real annoyance for me, that
coaches are, this isn't their fault.
Coaches are asked to make decisions
about players when they're 18 or when
they're 16, to an extent when they're 20.
And what we're asking coaches
to do is to predict the future.
We're saying, how do you
think that kid gonna turn out?
He's 16 now.
What do you think he's
gonna be like when he's 21?
It's five years of development and he
might not, you know, there's so much more
maturation to be done at that, that phase.
So for me, the getting out a
alone, and if I was in charge of
a football pro, if somebody was.
Just being asked to go onto a
working group at Premier Elite Club.
But one of the things I'm gonna say is
how strategically do we keep players
in our system be out on loan to give
them a chance to be a late developer?
Because making a call at 18 means
you've either gotta be a superstar
and ready for 13 football at 18,
all gonna let you go, So, you're
right, the, the chances of getting in
into a first team at 18 are tricky.
The hardest part, I think from the
young players and their families.
To understand risk and vulnerability.
But if you look at the top, top, top
players, they are the ones who are willing
to risk to be a bit vulnerable, to put
themselves out there, to make mistakes,
to learn from those mistakes, to go again.
And that's where the
psychology of it comes in.
And this is where the family needs
to be such a tight unit so that
they can support them through those
vulnerable times and talk to 'em about
vulnerability and fear and risk as well.
Liron: So if you have two players,
young players that you're coaching
or families that you're coaching,
and they're similarly talented,
they've gone through the same path.
What's kind of sliding door moments
that you can see that will define a
kid that having a chance progressing
and one that would have a hindrance?
Chris: I would say, their
willingness, their obsession with
going to get a contract somewhere.
for example, if I was working with two,
let's say we had two players and one said.
I will go anywhere in Europe, get eyes
on me, get me a professional contract
and get eyes on me so that I can show the
world that I am too good for this level.
I will be saying, okay, brilliant.
You are in a very good space
here mentally to attack this.
If I had another one who was
going, no, I wanna play in England.
I would be encouraging them through
the data to say, but you are really
restricting your opportunities
to go and get men's football.
So you have to have a mentality, which
means I am going to go and get this, then.
If you are working with me and you
come with that mentality, and I go,
right, well, I'll show you how you go
and get this, and this is how we do it.
We cast our net wide, we think global.
We find the clubs that need
somebody in your position.
We find, uh, countries
that fit your style.
So I'm quite a small player, okay?
So we're not gonna go to Scotland or
we're gonna go to, uh, Portugal or,
or look Spain or something like that.
We know the, the Norway, Sweden
perhaps have got a different
mentality about youth development.
More of a chance there.
life is, the story of a thousand
pitches, maybe 10,000 pitchers,
Just keep pitching yourself.
And when you're sitting under 21s
football, you won't pitching yourself
because everybody inside the game goes
It's not real football Like there's nobody
on this picture that where mortgage is on
the line here, whether they win or lose.
And the good thing about the UK and
other countries in Europe, we've got
depth to the leagues where you can go
and be paid to play football with some
atmosphere where with fans who really
care about whether you win or not, and
then you're under pressure, that would
be the sliding door moment for me where
I'm going actually getting a contract
to 18, not particularly that difficult.
The next bit, the next,
the 18 to 23 is huge.
A huge turning point for so many
players where I think sometimes
you think ohs, I've made it.
I've got my contract at 18
Actually, I'm afraid now the hard work
really starts because you've gotta
go and you've got to, you've got to
perform where people are giving you
money to perform, and that is a very
different relationship all of a sudden.
Matt: so Chris, you have MLS is our
top league here, and then it's USL
championship, and then you have USL,
league one and MLS next Pro and MLS Next
Pro from what we've heard, feels very much
like a U 21 environment where it's become
an extension of their youth academy.
And while these guys, most of
these kids are on professional
contracts of some sort, it's very
different than USL Championship
where everyone is a professional
and they've gotta win and pay bills.
And maybe the technical
level isn't as high, right?
Or maybe this isn't as good, but
that feeling of you are playing for a
paycheck that you need to get to the
next week, you can't, you can't create
that environment in a U 21 situation
Liron: Matt, what you said is, is so
sharp because if, if we had to, you
and I do an internal survey of families
we know or kids we know, I don't know.
I, I think most would end in saying, what
is the, I made it, it'd be like, great.
I want to get to that MLS Pro 2 contract.
That's why our, our interview
with the USL was so eye opening.
I think people don't think of the,
the bigger picture and what really
happens after that first pro contract.
And we we had Alex Rondo here who got
caught in that limbo of that first pro
contract and then couldn't, was basically
in an extended academy from 21 to 24 and
said he was playing in front of 50 people
with, without all of a sudden any hope.
I think it's, it's, it's something we
just don't, don't immediately think about.
Chris: I mean that we we're all guilty
of this, aren't we in football clubs?
I went to watch it u 21 game.
we were talking to the mums of some of the
players said, what is happening next year?
I dunno.
We're just gonna wait and see
and then take it from there.
And I'm thinking, you need to
be thinking about this now.
Because you could actually be a
step ahead of everybody You could
already be contacting clubs.
There's so much work, so
much groundwork to be done.
We can make mistakes.
And the world isn't watching.
Some people are watching it.
The world isn't watching.
We're not like Premier League here
where one bad game and then that's it.
Here we can, things can go wrong and
we can learn from them and we can get
better because we're only 20 and we've
got four, five years development left.
Yeah.
That, that to me is, is such
a really a good example.
And it sounds like you,
you've got the same.
Situation there, you can sit in
that comfort zone because you're
just looking at the next contract.
Oh, they've got, well, yes,
we've got another year.
Brilliant.
Alright, what are you
doing with that year?
How are we gonna use that
year to get to the next place?
what's the next place after that?
We can't just hope.
Liron: we get, so we get
so attached to a brand.
Uh, we have our kids,
we're all invested in it.
and in a way you want 'em
to be part of that brand.
It sounds to me a very difficult
job for you to try to convince a
family that there's another path.
Matt: Chris, from the stories that we hear
that you, 16, 17, 18 players even signed
homegrown contracts as they call them.
Here you have a contract, but
you lose a lot of power, a lot
of flexibility to control your
own destiny to a certain degree.
that's sport is a business
and we all understand that,
and that's part of the deal.
the situation you were describing
sounds great, but is it realistic?
I mean, if you're a U 21 player
at Tottenham, for example, is the
club really gonna listen to you
and and are you actually empowered?
Do you have any leverage in a situation
like that to get yourself out on loan
to a place that you think is a good fit
for you as opposed to just for the club?
Chris: it depends how good you are.
It depends what they see.
It, it depends the
personnel, the, the club.
It depends on your negotiating skills,
on the negotiating skills of your agent.
It depends on, um, the data that you've
got to, to hand all those things in a mix.
And you're right, it's
leverage, it's power.
So if you, if you feel so,
lemme give you an example.
I chatted with, a mom a player who was
being quartered by three or four teams.
He'd been offered a scholarship and three
years professional contract off straight
away when he was, he's still only 15.
So this club think he's good.
Other Premier League clubs are interested.
She'd been approached by so many agents
and I said, right now is your point where
you can actually go forward and try and
get something like this written down
and get it somewhere in this contract.
I'm not saying that all the time.
You're gonna get and saying,
yes, absolutely no problem.
Because I've had conversations where clubs
have blocked it, clubs have taken the
legal route and No, no, you signed this.
You can't, we're in control
and that is a problem.
That absolutely is a problem.
But this is why you need to start
thinking about this when you're 1450 to
16 with your parents so that you don't
go signing something or having a, a chat
and an open and honest conversation with
the club about this as a possibility.
Liron: But, but for us, as we're
looking at the younger kids.
Okay.
Um, does this mentality or attitude that
you just brought up, would that also be
applicable to the younger ages where.
You said, okay, there's mobility within
the Academy Club system in the UK as well,
Chris: that can occur
on both, in both ways.
Um, you've got a young player who
is working hard, think things are
going well, and then the clubs
say, no, we're not keeping you
for the under 15s and under 16s.
And then you've got to go on trial again.
This is the reality of, well, elite sport,
not just football, you know, elite sport,
It's there.
It, it's, it's all there.
It's cutthroat.
And these are all businesses
and they're basically gonna, you
are, they see you as an asset.
We've learnt that.
Now you might only 14, but
let's have a talk about it.
And do you want to go again?
Yeah, I do.
right.
Let's go, let's go again then.
This is what trials are gonna be like.
Here's how we prepare you for trials.
Here's how we get your name out
there again, and we go again.
Matt: Chris, from, from the data
qualitatively, quantitatively, whatever
it may be, what did it tell you about
the environments that the kids were in
when they were 12, 13, 14 years old?
What were you looking for?
What were you asking about, I
guess in, was there anything
telling, coming out of those?
Uh, uh, coming out of the specific
environments, and I, when I say
environments, I mean both the club
environment, the home environment,
anything socioeconomic that, that may have
had an impact in, in studying the results.
Chris: Question about socioeconomics
a really interesting one because
there has been other research that's
tried to maybe highlight how much
money is needed to be invested.
the need for one parent at least to have
some sort of flexible job where they can
drop things and get the kid to training
or matches the money that's needed for
the petrol and the time to get around
the country is an interesting pandemic.
My observations and discussions that I've
had around the sort of 12, u13, u14s, I
still believe we are largely driven by
adult led outcomes at that, at that space.
It's like who do we think is
good enough to get a scholarship?
when we still probably should be in
the phase of developmental stuff.
We don't know who's been through puberty,
et cetera, et cetera, all those things.
There's so much more to call.
We dunno who the late developers, they've
still got a lot of catching up to do.
So we still, for me should be
in a very fundamental phase.
We should be focusing a
bit more on bio banding.
And when you go to academies
largely you find very narrow
outcomes around who is the best.
Now they're looking good, they'll, were
not really in a space of what are these
kids likely to be liked a few years time.
And that is the skill in an academy.
Matt: Chris, can I get into a little
bit more about the late developers?
I think you gave the age range of
like 18 to 23, if I'm not mistaken,
or even a little bit older.
And then the percentage of those late
developers who are actually playing
first team football and, and in all
likelihood in, in different first
team football than where they grew up
from an academy perspective, right?
If the data tracks what, what do, given
that, why do we still seemingly, and
this seems to be a global issue, not
just a UK issue under invest in the
process of an, in helping ensure that
late developers continue to have a clear
pathway because it seems like you've
invested all this money in a player.
Right.
And then you kind of give and,
and clubs again, globally, give
up on a kid at 18 or 19 years old.
If they're not in the first team,
why not have more extensive programs?
Or have you heard of clubs who are
putting in more extensive programs
to focus on those late developers?
Chris: not heard of
anybody who's done that.
why we give up on this, I dunno if
it's because people just think it's
such a difficult thing to get round.
But I've always come from the
point of view of it's the difficult
questions that we need to answer
to, to get the most returns.
if we just ignore the difficult
things in life, then we give up
on so much and it staggers me.
Chelsea, for example, have identified
a young coach early on in his
coaching career, have backed him
all the way through his coaching,
brought him into the organization,
then given him the keys to Chelsea,
sacked him a few months later, and
now he's gone into the category of
he's never gonna be good enough,
so we're just gonna get rid of
him from the whole organization.
It's staggering.
It's staggering.
Short termism.
And the same occurs I
think, with young players.
We invest in them from 8 and then at
18 or 19 go, He's not gonna make it.
Instead of what if they've still
got development in them, A range of.
Um, metrics that we can take, giving
them an opportunity still within our
organization, but through the loan
system to go and develop further.
They then, for me, they become an asset.
Even if you then think they're still not
quite the standard of our first team,
but now they're gonna be worth more.
and I fail to see that that
is too difficult to overcome.
I really do.
I believe that a club who takes that
step and starts thinking in that way,
actually will steal a march on the, on
the sect and start to, in the way that
Brighton and Brentford have done in
other areas, But the reality is also as
soon as those players leave, the club
moves on the machine rolls onto the
next group of players in a brutal way.
That's actually the reality.
So what you probably get are two
processes occurring at the same time.
A group of people in the club trying
to stay in touch with the players and
see if they're all right and the rest
of star coaching the next group right.
Eyes onto the next year, if there
anybody else to come through.
And that's where I still think we'd
get families and players feeding
back going, yeah, not enough's done.
I, I've suddenly started feeling
like I was just a piece of me and
then I was nothing anymore enough.
I went.
I've been here since I was eight,
and that's a hard, that's always
gonna be a hard thing to manage.
Matt: Even, even your language
if, if they're all right.
Right.
Essentially like a leading
indicator that there's been
something traumatic has happened.
And, and most of these kids, if they've
been at a professional academy since they
were eight years old, I mean, it is the
large, a large portion of their identity.
And, and if you're cut at
18, it's very different than
even playing at U 21, right?
Because you're still hanging around.
You're still hanging around.
The goal at U 21 have a chance
to go out on a loan at 18.
If you're released, you're released,
and then you're fending for yourself.
And that may be trying to get
into another professional academy.
It may be paying pro semiprofessional,
it may be becoming a tradesman.
Like, who knows, right?
But either way, it's probably traumatic.
Chris: This is all Plan A. It really
frustrates me when people say,
oh, you need a plan B. it's all
plan A. You have to be developing,
um, not different versions of
yourself, but, but varied interests.
And that's okay.
The reason that Plan B frustrates me
is because they'll say it sounds like
a separate idea as if you're gonna
go off in a different direction.
There are numerous players who've
gone on and got degrees while being
professional players and have gone
on to win a World Cup like this.
Education versus playing
dichotomy doesn't exist.
It, it can be the same thing.
I've, I've I've spoke to a professional
player who said, if I'd not done
a degree, I'd have gone mad.
Because when things weren't going
well on the pitch or it kept me
grounded, it, it meant I had to go and
concentrate on something else for a bit.
It got me away from the club and just some
space with different people for a bit.
And the same could be said of doing
a trade or, and I think of education
in a real holistic sense, learning
a different language that, that it's
almost a no brainer to, if you want
to be a professional footballer,
to have more than one language.
There are so many different ways you
can talk about education in, in modern
society because of courses that you can
do in something that really interests you.
This is just you, it's, it's not
plan A and plan B. This is just you.
Liron: I just want to move a little bit
to the United States, do you find that the
US has become an interesting destination?
For some of your players
Chris: Yeah, I think it's
definitely become more of a
conversation, with expansion and
number one, the college route.
And I know there are conversations
going on about the number of games
that they play in college and how that
might change because it's definitely
something that I've advised players about.
Be aware that not gonna get
loads and loads of games.
Liron: Yeah.
Very short season
Chris: and that's because
sometimes take them by surprise.
We're actually just, yeah.
Yeah.
Liron: Yeah.
We don't understand it.
Chris: I am involved in a, in an
organ, a company We wanna do some
career coaching specifically for that.
I see a lot of companies who wanna say
exploit, but that they know that there are
kids over here who want to go to America.
They get that deal done and then don't
get in touch with them ever again.
And they're just in America and
Liron: you talking about
college or professional, uh,
play in America.
Chris: college in that space.
that's where we wanna start.
But again, two things that I think
have started to occur is more
people in this country are seeing
the professional game in America as
a legitimate, you know, standard.
And also that there are enough eyes
there that as a younger player to
go there and play men's football, I
could be seen and be brought back.
I think that has started to occur.
Um.
And I, I've definitely had
those conversations with people.
I can only really see that probably
developing a bit more once you start,
there's a reason that agents have
started to gravitate around there,
and that's, that says to me that
there's business to be done there.
if we're talking about asset development,
which is, doesn't, it's not a nice
word, but essentially that is what
you are doing with a young player.
Can we get them so somebody sees them
and thinks they're an asset either
on the pitch or we can sell on if
agents are heading that way, that
probably tells you that there's,
that there are assets over in that
area of the world to be taken over.
Matt: but I think when there's enough
smoke, there's probably there, there's
fire and it's, it sounds like there's
a ton of conversation at the right
levels and there's you always need
money for these things to happen.
I think there's starting to be
enough money around it where it
could, where it could be realistic.
Chris: Yeah.
It's gonna come down to the
finances of it, isn't it?
Liron: We will tell you that the
colleges, especially the D 1, where
we consider the top leagues are
flooded by, uh, international players.
Right now,
Chris: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I guess that's a,
that is a problem for the US
.
Liron: it's not, not a problem.
Chris: Okay.
Matt: It's not, not it, it is,
it is a, I mean, it, it is, uh,
it is a significant problem for
incoming, for incoming freshmen.
So 18 year olds even playing
at the top, top academies here.
Um, it's become that much more
difficult for them to get a
spot, let alone a scholarship.
And that then that has an effect on
division two soccer, division three
soccer, which is at the collegiate
level, which is all very significant.
I think it's increasing the quality
across the board, which is great.
Um, but it is limiting some
opportunities, especially for the younger
kids
Chris: we've had in the UK an increase
in the number of private academies.
So they're not attached to a football
club, but they are private academies and
they attach to universities uh, player
from the US could come to the UK for
a private academy, align
that with their education.
The key for that private academy is
getting them the games at the level
that would be sort of expected.
They're probably gonna get decent
number of games versus the us.
And then they get them as many games as
they can and they try and push them to
the highest level that they possibly can
in those games with the idea of getting
eyes on them, et cetera, et cetera.
But they've had some good results and,
and they've definitely had players
from the US because I've met them.
Matt: They're, they're paying
to be there, though, correct?
The players.
Yeah.
So I mean, I think that there, there's,
there's, um, there's a lot of, or,
or quite a few organizations out
there where American kids have the
opportunities to go play and study abroad.
I think that, um.
Some, some of them I'm, we know
some of them do a wonderful job.
There's others that probably do
less wonderful of a job, Liron,
um, put me in on a term a few
years back called selection to pay.
And, uh, I think there,
there's, there's always, there's
always that question, right?
Which is, how good is my son or
daughter versus am I willing and
able to pay to have the opportunity?
And, um,
Liron: if you're willing to pay.
Matt: it, doesn't it?
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Another clue from Liron?
Chris: And that, that is actually
something that I think for, for,
for parents to be really aware of.
In, in the, there comes an age
where if you're still paying to
play, come on, it's a red flag.
The, it's a, it's a red flag
that they have not developed.
Um, and, and they aren't.
Either you need to go somewhere else
and get some separate assessment.
So one of the things that I do when
I'm working with, with players is
get a scouting report done that's
independent because it cuts out the
bs, it cuts out the pol politics.
They're telling you this because
they think they, so it's no,
no, no, let's go independent.
Somebody who doesn't even know you and
they write a scouting report on you.
And then we know, And actually
they're not that expensive.
You, you could get a scouting
report done for not that much
money if you've got the video.
And it's not a bad thing
to do, to be honest.
And if you are paying to get your
kid into academies at at a later more
advanced age is, is probably a red flag
Matt: Well re Yeah, I mean, remember
there's only 30 free academies in the
professional academies in the US and
everything else is you're paying, so it
doesn't correlate exactly, but there's
still something to that because there's
only so many kids who are going to quote,
unquote, make it however we're defining
it or get a scholarship to college.
And I think, I'm sure that a
decent amount of that tracks
to, you know, the professional
clubs where kids are not paying,
Chris: an example of a, a situation
that occurred of, of a parent I know.
So, um, they were in, in Australia,
they went on holiday to Serbia because
the wife and the couples from Serbia.
So they spent the summer there and
they went to a hol, a holiday camp,
essentially run by Red Star Belgrade
and the coaches said, who's this kid?
Well, we're we're just here on holiday.
He's good and, and he is got a passport
for Yeah, he is got a passport for here.
Would he stay anyway?
The child said, yeah,
yeah, I'll stay, I'll stay.
So the family went back to Australia.
The child stayed at the academy in Serbia.
About four weeks later, I think it
was, the dad said, I can't do this.
So they move the whole family out
to Serbia and that's when I go,
yeah, that's the bit of a mentality
around somebody who will go, I
wanna do this, I just wanna do this.
Because that's now got eyes on him in
Europe, he's just actually gone on loan.
Um, and played his first
bit of men's football at a
lower division in Serbia and.
you think about the conversation we are
having there from somebody else who says,
actually we're gonna stay in the US and
just pay to stay at an academy rather
than a, alright, that's slightly different
'cause they've got a dual passport.
But that to me is somebody who's gone.
The kid really, really wants to do
this and deep down the kid's gone.
Yeah, I wanna do this.
I'm up for risking, I'm up for
leaving Australia and living in
Serbia and having a go at this.
And the dad's gone.
Yeah, cool.
But by the way, he's on for a
great grade point average as well.
He's not, let education drop.
Because I've had conversations
with him and his dad's gone.
You don't, you don't slump off this.
This is, both of these have gotta be top
Matt: I, I can see all the American
parents now changing their, uh,
their vacation plans to be in Serbia
Liron: Balkans.
The Balkans are waiting.
The Balkans are waiting.
Everyone.
Matt: tourism is gonna have a
huge spike in Serbia this summer.
Liron, do you wanna wrap with,
some rapid fire?
Yeah.
Liron: I have a few prepared.
do you judge kids by their
talents to get into your program?
Chris: No,
Matt: Earlier Academy
always means better odds.
Chris: no.
Liron: give me one or two things that,
that a parent should do to say, okay,
we're all in, we're gonna support.
Chris: Educate themselves, read, educate
themselves before they go all in.
Liron: Well, I didn't do that, so
that's, that's too late for me.
So.
Matt: a bigger badge usually
means a better environment,
Chris: Not necessarily.
No.
Liron: Well, you got
that answer then I think.
Yes.
Matt: think.
Yes.
What really?
Chris: ask,
Matt: I was like, what?
Chris: The question again because
I'm a bit of a stickler for words.
I think that I'll explain
why said what I did.
So you, you have to, again, as
a, as a parent and have these
conversations, what is the best
environment for your child because.
being a small fish in a big
pond isn't great for everybody.
And the cutthroat nature of of some
of those clubs can be detrimental.
And I have come across kids who
have really, really suffered at
the big clubs dropped down and
being far better as a player.
Far better.
You know, in fact, a dad messaged me the
other day with a clip of his kid having
a shot from a halfway line and taking a
penalty at a penalty shootout, and he said
he never would've done this at X Club.
He just wasn't mentally going.
I'll have a shot from the
halfway line, in fact.
And he missed a penalty in a,
in a shootout, got berated so
badly by the coach that he never
wanted to take a penalty again.
And he's dropped to what would
be seen as a smaller club.
So as a parent, which, which one,
how's he gonna be a better player
at, at stay at that club or go or.
and rebuild, that club.
So I, I think is, you know, he
can't say yes or no to that as a
question, but that was my thinking
behind saying, not necessarily.
'cause it's not always a better
environment at a bigger club.
Not always.
Not for everyone.
Matt: Is it fair to ask parents
to actually know what is the
best environment for their kids?
Chris: Yes.
I actually think it's a responsibility.
. Yeah.
And you can't share that
responsibility, I'm afraid.
Because if, if, I mean, being a
parent is a responsibility, isn't it?
And if you are then saying, I am taking
my child to this business from the age of.
Six to eight, then I think you do have
a responsibility to step away from
the romantic view and think we need to
start thinking about this as a business
situation because the clubs are, the,
the clubs are thinking about this as
a business transaction and the way you
get caught out as a parent, and it isn't
their fault, but the way you get caught
out as a parent is if you think, oh,
it's lovely, you know, oh, it's great.
We're gonna get him into football.
We've supported him actually, you know,
my granddad had a season ticket there,
and, and you get caught in the romanticism
of it all and then bang, it's, oh no,
this, this isn't like this at all.
And for the past 10 years we've
not been educating ourselves.
And then you're in trouble.
So I think, I think you have to
have to take that responsibility on.
Liron: That, that sums up everything,
Matt: Sums up everything it does.
So given different environments and
how subjective player evaluation
and selection is, how much do
connections actually matter?
And is it more than we wanna admit?
it's the agent, it's the former
player who has a relationship
with the family, whatever it may
Chris: Yeah.
they, they matter.
They, they, they definitely matter.
Um, we don't like to admit it, but
we all take biases through life.
I mean, this starts to explain to
me why we don't have as many late
developers in academy systems.
It's because there are biases in our
judgment, and we look for the bias.
So if we don't think he's not gonna
be good enough to make it, or the
opposite, he's the son of a former
player, so he should be good.
We then look for all the times
that he is good and, and we add
our value judgments to that.
So absolutely, you need to be
making connections within the game.
for A multitude of different reasons,
to get honest feedback, to have
different clubs give you advice.
and again, it's something I do
with parents of young players.
How are you building up connections?
How are you, what are you doing
on LinkedIn that's gonna help
you gain some connections in this
world where you're gonna get some
advice from different people.
Again, it could be that you end up
pitching your son or daughter to somebody
via LinkedIn and Scouts, et cetera.
You've got to do that.
Um, those things are
really, really important.
Really, really important.
I, I don't belie ve that judgments
on players are as objective
as people think they are.
They're incredibly subjective.
We know, for example, the
number one predictor of success
in elite sport is attitude.
over Talent.
It doesn't mean you can't have any talent.
You've got have some talent,
but attitude is the predictor.
You go and ask coaches or scouts what
attitude is and how they measure it, and
the majority will not be able to do it.
That doesn't mean if you're a rubbish
footballer, if you've just got a great
attitude, you're gonna get there.
That's not what it's saying, but it does
mean that a predictor of who's gonna
be a great player when they're like
24, 25 is, is linked to their attitude.
my PhD study, I interviewed coaches at
clubs and said, what's a good attitude?
And I had loads of
different responses to that.
There isn't a defined attitude.
What is it you are actually looking for?
And then what's even worse for me
is scouts will watch a game and
try and make a value judgment on an
attitude based on watching a game.
They don't talk to them, and
I found that quite baffling.
I, I'd be interviewing the parents,
I'd be interviewing the kid.
I'd be, I'd be wanting to chat to them
going, what are you like as a person?
What's the.
What's the habitus, what's the
identity of this young player?
All the clues here that they're gonna
have a good attitude or a bad attitude.
They're really, really important.
And I think we underplay those.
So that's crucial for me in understanding.
And, and again, you will have an idea
of what your kids' attitude is like.
Like how much are they a hard worker?
How dedicated are they, that will give you
some good indications of, of their ability
to sort of sustain the le the level of
work that's needed to become a pro, an
elite, you know, professional player.
An elite level player.
Absolutely.
Liron: Wow.
Uh, amazing.
Uh, you've given us so much.
How does, um, how do our
listeners get in touch with you
Chris: Yeah, so I, I'm
on, on social media.
Um, I've got a website,
which is chris Platts.co.uk.
I publish a newsletter on there, uh,
that you can sign up for a blog every
other week where I take these bits of
research and put them into smaller,
digestible things for people to read.
I do run some free workshops, one or
two a month if people want to jump on.
It just gives another chance for
people to, I'll usually pick a topic.
It allows people to hear a little bit
more about me, tune into some of the
services that I offer, and if it's right
for them at that point in time, you can
actually, you can book a call with me
and we just sit one-to-one and have a
good, good chat about your pain points
and see whether I can help or not.
So that's probably the best way
of getting in touch with me.
Jump onto the website.
And, uh, yeah, take it from there.
If anybody's, off the back of
this, wants to ask any questions,
info@chrisplat.co uk is also my email.
So you could, you know,
fire out a question.
Don't ever think you're on
your own on this journey.
There, there are people who are there
to help and advise and chat with you.
So if you've got a
question, get it answered.
Get it answered.
don't just wonder the
answer will be out there.
Matt: Dr. Chris Platts, uh, thank so
much for joining us and chasing the game.
What an informative conversation and,
uh, we can't, can't wait to this out.
I don't know how to say wow with a Sheffield accent, but Matt, I'm going to leave this one
to you.
Yeah, I'm not going to do that either.
There are a few lines from Chris that really frame this episode.
Getting a professional contract at 18 doesn't mean you get a career.
It means you've got a first contract.
That changes the way family should think about the whole chase.
So much of youth soccer, for us at least, is built around the next proof
point, right?
Is it the academy, the badge, the scholarship, in this case the contract?
But what I realized that it's not a finish line, right?
It's just another decision point.
And then there is the question he tells families to ask, why are you playing football?
And what is it you are trying to achieve?
Yeah, and the hard part for me at least that as a parent and the player, my son, we
probably don't have the same answer.
At least I don't know.
I've never asked him and the system just keeps moving and churning and moving forward.
And one more line that matters.
You have to be the anchor.
Yeah, you don't need to control everything as a parent, and it's hard, but you need to
understand the environment, you need to ask better questions, and to know when the path is
actually helping your kid.
Huge massive thanks to Dr.
Chris Platts for bringing this research and honesty and clarity into this conversation.
And just like your kids, a pro contract at 18 doesn't mean the work is done.
Yeah, the same goes here.
So your work listener is not done.
If this episode made you think, share it with another parent and subscribe.
Come on.
This is Chasing the Game Youth Soccer in America.
Next time,
Next time, Liron.