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The podcast for high-level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world.
If you’re a founder, executive, or high-ranking leader, you already know this truth: the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to.
Lonely at the Top is a sanctuary in the storm—a space where the emotional cost of leadership is named, and where relief, clarity, and grounded support are always on the table.
Hosted by Soul Medic and former psychotherapist Rachel Alexandria, this podcast dives into the unspoken realities of high-level decision-making: the pressure, the isolation, the doubt, and the fatigue. Each episode offers insight, emotional tools, and conversations with seasoned leaders who’ve learned to navigate the weight of responsibility without losing themselves.
📍 📍 you're the CEO. And so you gotta understand with that title comes a lot of expectations. And remember, in some situations, employees need you to be regal.
They need you to be above the fray. When you're in the room, you can't forget who you are.
Because everybody else in that room knows who you are.
📍 📍 📍 Welcome to Lonely At the Top, a podcast for high level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world. Because you know the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to. Here we welcome founders, executives, and decision makers who feel the isolation and pressure that comes with power.
Lonely at the top is your sanctuary in the storm, and I'm your host, Soul Medic and former psychotherapist, Rachel Alexandria.
📍 Today's guest is Louis Fordham. He's the Vice President of Human Resources at Engineered Floors. He's spent 35 years in human resources in the flooring manufacturing industry. He's also served two terms on his local board of education, and he's passionate about spending time with his extended family.
I am so interested in having this conversation today, Louis. Most people that I meet don't have a lot of dedicated, staying in one industry, staying in the same kind of role for their whole career. That's more uncommon these days, and one of the things I really value for the podcast is having people on with a variety of different experience so that everybody listening has somebody that they can relate to.
yeah.
So thanks for joining us.
Yeah. It's my pleasure. Thank you for asking me.
Absolutely. We met through Mike O'Neill has a really wonderful, robust networking experience and that's how we connected. 'cause we are very far apart in experience and, across the country too, or.
That's right. That's right. Yeah. But about as far as you can get, so
Pretty much, yeah. I'm in, Southern California And you are in
I'm in Georgia.
Georgia, right? Well, at least we're both in the south.
That's right, that's right. We like the warmer side.
We do. I lived in Florida for a little while and I loved that weather. I am, I am the weird person who loves humidity.
Same here. Bring it
Oh,
Yeah,
hey.
on.
Oh my gosh.
Bring on the
You are the first person I've ever met.
Stay away from the cold. So
It's always nice when you meet somebody who actually lives in the place that matches their temperament in terms of climate.
Right?
yeah,
No pun intended.
When we first talked we were just kind of getting to know each other. I was just starting the idea for this podcast, and actually you were supposed to be my first guest
Mm-hmm.
and then I got sick, and so we had to reschedule,
How about that? Yep. That's
which was, it was actually perfect because to be honest, here's just a little insight
behind the camera, behind the microphone. I hadn't ever run a podcast or not since 20 years ago, and I had some kinks to work out. So I'm glad that you came in later when I could actually provide a better experience.
Well good. Well, good.
It, it was
was divinely timed in my opinion.
Well, good.
One of the things I was interested when we first started talking, was your experience less with personal loneliness and more about your experience getting to watch all of the leaders
Right,
and what they go through.
right.
Can you say a little bit more about that without obviously, betraying any confidences, we always keep it, uh, confidential on the show.
Yeah. Being in human resources, and I was pretty fortunate to get into a senior role pretty quickly. And, I had the chance to work with senior leadership and a lot of my years I've worked directly with, you know, the top leaders in the company, CEOs, presidents, and, and what's interesting for me is, is I immediately felt like human resources was exactly the right fit for me. And, I've never aspired to be a CEO I've never really aspired to be in that position. And the more I've worked with those roles, um, it's hard, it's challenging and, I've always used the statement that there's two jobs in every organization who are responsible for every employee in the organization, that's
Mm
CEO the head of human resources. So we
mm.
have a lot in common,
Mm-hmm.
in that we have to come to work every day thinking about every part of the organization, not just our division, our function, our group. And so I've had that perspective for a long time. And so watching senior leadership carry a lot of responsibility, put a lot of responsibility on themselves. The pressure to always make the right decisions, the pressure to, always be there for everybody in the organization. It's a challenging, it's a very challenging role, and the structure itself creates loneliness, creates isolation, creates, some other aspects that just sort of happen systemically, because that's the nature. We were talking, at work this week about opportunities of the company.
Well, the higher you go up ladder, the fewer the opportunities. When you get to the top, it's usually one position and everybody else is looking up. You're sort of the only person looking down. And so, it's just been, it's been very, very, interesting to watch it. And you know, I've, I've really always tried to be in a role to where I, I'm here to help you as much as I'm here to help every other employee. You're an employee too.
Hmm.
I've always
tried to, to hone my approach and my skillset to understand all of the business so that I can have an articulate and intelligent conversation with the CEO. As much as , a very specific role or a very specific employee in the company. So, I've watched leaders and I've been blessed to be around good leaders. I've knocked on
Hmm.
wood, I've been thankful that I have not been around, you know, that type of a CEO or a senior leader that I would not wanna work for. And I don't see it as a loneliness, as a sadness type condition, maybe more isolation, more I have to make a lot of decisions by myself type perspective. So, it's been exciting to, to watch, but also, it's not easy.
Mm-hmm.
I
don't think the perks necessarily outweigh the stress that a lot of these roles are under.
And I assume that's why you didn't ever aspire to go any higher.
Well, I got into human resources pretty quickly and immediately felt like it was divine. I mean, 'cause how I got into it was a little bit of one of those, opportunity unexpectedly opened up and was in the right place at the right time. I won't claim to be highly qualified.
I was still relatively new out of, out of school and things like that. So I always felt like this was the role that fit me personally.
Mm-hmm.
and I'm not a finance guy. So that was an area that I've, would love to, to know more and be better, but there were just parts of the job that I just, I said I won't be a good fit.
I, I just, I don't have the patience for this. I don't have the interest of this. I'm not a real extroverted person. I'm comfortable talking, especially in settings like this, but throw me into a crowd. I'm not gonna be the best sales person. I'm not gonna be the best customer relations person.
Hmm.
and so I think it was, it wasn't so much I don't want the job as much as I really
don't
it would be a good fit for me. And so, I've been blessed to, be at the leadership table. And I do like that. I I love helping run organizations, but from an HR perspective, it's good enough for me.
Yeah, that makes sense. And I, I love that you, name being an introvert because it's actually not a conversation that's come up yet on the podcast, but it is something that I'm always curious about because people still in this day and age don't always know which one they are or
they're like, but I'm very gregarious and I like people. It, like, it's not about that
That's
introversion and extroversion, not about that. Uh.
That's right.
A lot of leaders I know are actually introverts. Um, maybe not always the CEO, the person who has to be the figurehead. But, uh, yeah, I wonder if that is, so, I guess that's a question for you.
Do you think being more of an introvert makes the rarefied air isolation less of a problem for you because you don't want to share your stories with hundreds of people?
I think there's pros and cons for both. And, you know, you think about certain leadership roles, the more they can empower others and the more they don't want to be out front, then that can work for the development of a lot of people, but they've gotta be pretty good at getting the right people around them to go out and lead and be the face and things like that. And at the same time, those very extroverted, those very outgoing, outspoken, you know, they can dominate.
Mm-hmm.
They can dominate a situation. In a lot of cases that can be really good, but in a lot of situations, they won't hear anybody else because they're not being quiet long enough to allow someone else to talk.
And so I think the, the more important thing, especially at that level, is knowing who you are
Mm-hmm.
so that you can build the right structure around you. So that the organization can be most effective, not just that you can be most effective. And that's, that's where I would, and again, with all the reading and all the, the information you see about other organizations, I think that's where leadership gets challenged.
Mm-hmm.
not
that they can't do the job, it's just that they may be so focused on themselves that they're not really surrounding themselves in an environment that fits. You know, they always say surround yourself with people that bring other strengths, other skills. You don't want a bunch of you's sitting around the large organization
Definitely not.
or a diverse organization.
So I think it's most important that, that they know who they are rather than be one or the other.
Right. I agree with that for sure. I was wondering, 'cause you're at the leadership table, are you having much of an experience of isolation? You got into it pretty early, you said. Was it ever more of a problem being in a place where you can't have lots of work buddies that you confide in?
Well, one of the first words of advice I was told by my, my very first, manager in human resources was, if you're gonna be successful in human resources, you can't have any close friends at work. And, I don't think that's totally true, but, but one of my most negative experiences early on was I, I did have a good friend. Uh, one of the very first people that we met when we moved to town and, and we quickly bonded and he worked for the same organization. And one of my team members, one of my employees came to me and, and this was, you know, after a while and said, um, well, you know, their employees won't come to you. And I said, what do you mean their employees won't come to me? the employees that work for him,
Oh no.
if they have a problem, they won't come to you because they know your friends.
Oh man.
I said, yeah, but, but I'll be objective. They said, they don't know that.
Yeah.
so that afternoon I called 'em up and I said, you and I can't go to lunch anymore. We can't, we can't let our friendship take over.
Now, we're still friends today close,
and
Mm-hmm.
friends. We just had to adapt. he totally
Mm-hmm.
understood. He wanted the same outcome. But yes, you know, again isolation can happen I think unintentionally. And that's not really what you're looking for because you've gotta be involved in so much as a senior leader, especially as a CEO. But you also have got to build that structure that somewhat protects people and so therefore, can limit what you can do and can't do
Mm-hmm.
'cause you're the CEO.
Yeah,
and like I said, I think it's as much structural. Where I see senior leadership isolating themselves, and, and I've been guilty of this as well,
Uhhuh.
is if you conduct yourself in a way that sends messages to your people, that they can't be honest with you or that you're gonna get really upset about something
Hmm
those emotional reactions. Even though you want people to come to you and you want to sort of give
mm-hmm.
let the emotions out, people are gonna adapt.
Yeah.
And, and so what's gonna happen is they're gonna quit bringing you information that their worry's gonna upset you or that's gonna cause
Mm-hmm.
an effect. They're gonna be very, very intentional.
I see that a lot with leadership, I would have managers come to me and say. I don't want my folks coming to HR with their promises. I want them to come to me. And my answer has been always, that's what I want too.
Mm-hmm.
promise you, I want your people to come to you first only come to us if they can't get resolved or in most cases 'cause they're unhappy with you 'cause you didn't give 'em what they wanted. But I can't not listen to 'em if they don't have anybody else to listen to.
Right.
you get 'em to come to you and you have my full support, I promise you.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think that's where some of the isolation will come in, is that conduct, that behavior. You know, if you have a controlling leader wants to make all the decisions and always has the right answer, then you're gonna quiet those people around you and you will become isolated.
You might not know it.
Yeah.
And, and you might get a lot of information, but I, I don't believe you're gonna be getting all the right information, and so it, um, it can happen. I've seen it happen and, um
It's a really good point. And, see, this is why I wanted you to come on the show. I knew like 35 years, you've gotta have some, some good pieces of wisdom and some good stories. A lot of what we've been talking about on the show so far is more from the the personal level of isolation, but I also see that people could experience
professional isolation. I mean, your employees can't be your friends. Not really. Not in a way where you can fully relax when you're the leader and you will feel more social bond if you're somebody that makes it doable to come and talk to you.
right.
It's not about them being your best friend, but if people are afraid of you or intimidated, you're gonna feel even less social connection.
Absolutely no question.
Yeah, that's really wise.
And I had a conversation with a leader and I explained to them because they they're a super nice person. They really are very caring about people,
Mm-hmm.
I had to remind them, you're the CEO. And so you gotta understand with that title comes a lot of expectations. And remember, in some situations, employees need you to be regal.
They, they need you to be above the fray, sometimes you cannot be too social because it, it lowers the role, especially in some situations, it can lower the status of the position. And so you got a member, especially employees that don't know you directly, they know your but more important
Mm-hmm.
they know who you are, what your job is, and that's how they're looking at you. And, you know, because of the nature of how they were wired, I don't think they'd really thought about that. 'cause they worked really hard to not separate themselves from people. They wanted to be approachable
Mm-hmm.
But I'm like, when you're in the room, you can't forget who you are.
Yeah.
because everybody else in that room knows who you are.
Knows. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean that's the, the incredibly tricky balance, right? That the higher up you go, the more attention is on you and I remember hearing something a long time ago and and folks who know a lot about economics are gonna be like, obviously, but some folks listening might not know.
I remember reading something about the Fed. And how that person has to be the most stable, even keel, non-reactive, very boring person because you know, even a flicker of an eyebrow can send the markets going crazy
Yeah.
and I'm, you know, I would imagine in that line of work, it's probably easier to find people like that than if it was for example, artists.
Right. But I was like, that's so much responsibility, and I think there's a portion of, or some percentage of that that's applicable across the board. The higher up you are in any organization, that that's what the position requires. I, I love that you said Regal. When we were designing the logo for this show originally, I was like, what if it's a throne on top of a mountain?
Because there is that, I mean, we don't have royalty here in this country, but in some ways we still kind of do like, you know, billionaires, millionaires, CEOs kind of are at that top space and wield so much power
Mm-hmm.
and it can be a thing that they take for granted and they don't realize the aura effect it's having around everyone.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that there can be symbolism that people could take advantage of, but CEOs have a lot of influence over a lot of people.
Mm-hmm.
They have the ability to, uh, obviously set culture, influence culture. That that trickles down into policy, trickles down into how other leadership approaches real serious decisions, such as how do we handle layoffs?
How do we handle short times? How do we handle cost of livings? I mean, those, those, decisions are, are heavily, heavily cultural in how companies manage those things.
Mm-hmm.
all those
decisions touch almost every employee.
Mm-hmm.
So, we definitely don't wanna go back to that type of, of rulership, but they're important positions and they're, they're looked at looked at that
Yeah.
by a lot of people looking up.
So one of the things we talked about before the show was that you see, advising leadership for 35 years, a lot of what you see is their reluctance to seek outside support. So you end up providing a lot of that in-house.
Well in, in our industry's a little bit unique because our industry is heavily, heavily contrary to Northwest Georgia. And the way it was developed, there were so many resources around companies that were all flooring, that were all carpet, that you really didn't go outside the industry much. And, really until recently with some of the, the larger organizations maturing into really, national, international companies. You seen a lot more, you know, outside type type resources coming in beyond vendors and, you know, equipment manufacturers, things like that.
Mm-hmm.
But I also think, you know, and again, I think that sort of goes back to wiring. To me, unless you come up through the ranks and that, that, that is sort of coached into you,
Mm-hmm.
that you always need that independent perspective. You always need that, that objective point of view. I I think people are gonna emulate the environment they come up in. And so a lot of our CEOs just came up in an industry that was very,
Very insular.
very internal. Very, very,
Yeah.
you know, if you don't work in carpet, then you don't know how to make carpet. If if you don't work in flooring, you really don't know how to make flooring.
And, and that was not the mindset, but that, that's sort of the culture that came in. I remember one time we, we had a, uh, sales leader that that lived outside the area. So first of all, they weren't, they weren't from the local, they were from a large metro area in, in the
Uh.
and they believed firmly in personal coaches, uh, having a
Mm-hmm.
I mean, he
Mm-hmm.
had a personal coach and, and he tried for years to get, uh, leadership to, to use a personal coach with senior leadership. And it was resisted. Resisted. And we finally broke down leadership, didn't try it. And it didn't go well because it, and it wasn't because the coach wasn't effective, it was just, it just wasn't in our, it wasn't in our wiring and, and we were doing it just sort of, because we felt like we wanted to need it wasn't because we really wanted it.
So, I think today more than ever, you see it, you know, across the country, in, in, in every industry and type of about the value of having others help you through this journey. And like I said earlier, if they all look and talk like you, you're gonna be limited. So you need some diversity of thought.
You need some diversity of if you really
Mm-hmm.
wanna lead most effectively. And so I think you're seeing it more today than ever because of that, that has been proven to be effective and proven to be true.
How was that for you? I mean, your background. Uh. Actually, I don't, I don't have it here. Tell me about your background, like what was your degree in?
Ironically, my degree is in, uh, management, but my concentration was personnel and human resource management.
Okay. Well, so yeah, you, you just always knew the direction you were headed.
I wish I picked that because I didn't wanna be an accountant. I didn't wanna be a finance major. I didn't, I I didn't,
I,
IS, yeah.
Was just, just blossoming. I literally picked it because it seemed like the route that I wanted to go.
I, I, I'm, I'm a farm boy from South Georgia. grew up
Yeah.
a, a large farm in South Georgia and knew nothing about the world of business. But it just seemed to fit me. I liked people and so I latched onto that. Um, in a couple of different businesses for a while, about a year and so outta college, and found myself looking for a job and, um, a trusted family friend of my wife's, steered me to Dalton. He said, there's this industry up there that, that is really, really something special. And so I came on as a management trainee. You know, I was, I spent my first year in manufacturing.
Mm-hmm.
my
was, I was going operations, I was going manufacturing and, um, and, and enjoyed it. I, I liked it. So it was, that was the path I was on. And then as I said earlier, unexpectedly a, uh, an HR position came open I joke all the time that somebody said, listen, we gotta get this Fordham kit out of manufacturing. Surely, you can put 'em over there.
And so, but they asked me if I was interested and I said I was.
Mm-hmm.
um, the rest is history. Like I said, it was a really good fit. And then after about three years, I had a chance to take, a senior leadership role at a company I worked with for 22 years. And, um, and then we were acquired in, in 16 by the company I'm with now. And they were, they were a outstanding company growing leaps and bounds, but they were relatively lean in internal operations. And so the current head of HR wanted to get back into another role with the company. And he said, Hey, if I do this, would you like human resource?
He said, I love it. He said, would you be willing to do that for us? And I said, Absolutely. And so, you know, so it it, it's worked wonderfully. I wish I could say it was a real plan, but, um, it, it, it has worked out wonderfully and it's been a great fit.
Plans can be overrated,
right
you know? Yeah. We don't have to, we don't have to take credit for everything. Right.
that's right.
That.
Did you find, I'm curious, the more you were working with senior leadership and seeing that they didn't have, like, you saw the isolation, you saw that they had, conversations that they needed to have with somebody as an advisor.
Did you feel up to that task? Did you do additional things to
augment your education to provide that kind of support? Well, I guess what I'm driving at is you have all these people, or a handful of people that you're supporting who are more isolated and have to really walk a fine line in a lot of ways.
How did you step up to the task of being that support person for them?
Well, I'm not sure that I ever got into a capacity where I could, you know, say I was sort of their personal coach or their personal advisor. And, like most folks, it was by making mistakes and learning and what you can do, can't do, and, um, which I've made more than my share of, of learning. The one thing that, that, I think helped me was by allowing human resources to be at the leadership table
Mm-hmm.
and, , and, being involved. But, like I said earlier, you gotta keep the mindset, from my perspective, that even though I might be thinking about the CEO, I'm really trying to think of everybody. And a lot of times the information the CEO needed or leader needed wasn't from me. It may have been from other people in the room.
It may have been from other parts of the organization. It may be from other leaders that didn't feel comfortable. So, less of my experience has been one-on-one advising and counseling, but more of helping the organization, by encouraging types of activities, types of efforts, types of discussions, types of meetings that brought the right people together. Developing processes that, would address some gaps. Encouraging a CEO to go meet or go talk with that person, encouraging consideration of promoting somebody, getting, getting a, an up and comer or a very talented person in a different role. Especially for most of my time and the company that I was at for 22 years was a a lot smaller than the company that, that I'm with now.
And that environment can make isolation a little more difficult. But it can also, bring a little bit more resources just because you're not so big that, that it's easier. Some things are just easier logistically. And we're pretty much one state, one area, so getting people together was just a matter of making a few phone calls and the next day you can have a meeting versus having to coordinate something for broader area.
So, It's really only been in the last 10 years that I would say that the idea of being a coach or that has really, been more visible to me. For the most part I looked at my job as my job is to protect the culture of the company and, doing that by trying to help as many people as possible. And, today more than ever, understanding that, that it takes a lot of talent to run organizations effectively. No one person has all the answers,
Mm-hmm.
therefore, trying to help the company build and grow and create, the structure and the environment is, is probably as effective sometimes as sort of one-on-one type, the challenge with one-on-one conversations is there's only two people that know what happened and, and then everything gets interpreted or, or, you know, evaluated. So if you're talking bigger than, just the two people in the room. Sometimes that conversation could be challenging because if you're speaking about a topic that you're not the firsthand subject matter expert, then the reality is you probably don't have all the facts or details.
You need to get that person in the room as well. And
Mm-hmm.
that's what I think the most effective organizations and the most effective leaders get the right people around the table to have the right conversations
It sounds to me like you think a lot about supporting leaders from a systemic perspective.
Well said.
Yeah, and that makes sense. You know, you're, like we talked about in the beginning, you're really invested in your extended family. That's just your framework.
Yep.
And I love that. It's such a different perspective than I have.
I mean, that was my, my graduate degree was systemic counseling, so I did do some organizational development, systemic work, and I love that. But you know, it's not my first lens. That's the thing that when I step back and take a look, I'm like, oh, right. Sort of like, who do we need in the room kind of thing.
It's a different way of seeing things. Mine is tends to be very intrapersonal because there's always little levers inside of people that they can learn to shift to make themselves more freed up for the systemic conversations. But I love, yeah, there's no one way, right?
Like you said in the beginning, we need more diversity of viewpoints.
correct.
So I love that idea of supporting leaders and getting them out of isolation by making sure there are good conversations with the right people in the room.
Yep. Yep.
That's great. Well, I wanna take us to the private ledger section of the conversation where we open your, your balance book of burdens.
And you talked about having made a number of mistakes earlier on in your career that you've learned from. So if you would be willing to share with us in your private ledger, your balance sheet, one of the costs that you have paid in your career for being in leadership.
Um, well, it's, it's hard to narrow it down. I mean, if,
Mm-hmm.
you're gonna be in a role of any type of leadership, whether it's family or, or professional, if you don't make mistakes, you're, probably not qualified for the job. Um, because we're all gonna make mistakes and I've, I've made my share of 'em. The, the biggest, if I look back over my career and I said, you know, what's the thing that if, you had the chance to do it over again, you, you would be very intentional and very thankful.
Mm-hmm.
let leadership go to my head. Um, I've, been that leader that was the dominant voice in the room. That lost connection with those people that I was responsible for taking care of every day. And they felt it.
Mm.
And, when you look back and you see that, you see what that does. I mean, there's, there's days I've looked at myself in the mirror and said, how in the world do you ever get human resources? Um, you know, you're supposed to care about people and you're supposed to take care of people, and you just sort of let your own ego and, sometimes it's even your own passion trying
Mm-hmm.
to accomplish.
Mm-hmm.
And especially in this particular environment, I was very, very focused on making us better. But I'd drawn a fine line from, setting lofty goals for the team to work towards, to it being somewhat of an obsession.
And if you're not bought in, you're gonna feel the not as pleasant side of Lewis And, and it wasn't one of the situations where I would berate people or, you know
That's hard to imagine.
I would
Yeah.
unprofessional. It was just that they could feel my frustration
Yeah.
um,
How did you realize, like what brought you back? You were out over your skis basically?
Others. I mean, it, others made me aware of it.
Hmm,
And it's one of situations where the minute, you know, it presented to you. You're like, you, yep. You're exactly right. And, I've seen leaders and not so much senior leaders.
Um, like I said, I've been fortunate to work with really good senior leadership, uh, you know, top leadership. But I've seen other leaders, and most leaders are gonna react like I did. You're right. You know, some may need 24 hours to to digest it. Some know it immediately.
Hmm.
But you still
that small group that's like, Nope, problem's not me. And oversensitive
I hear more of those stories. Yeah. Yep.
the
Mm-hmm.
facts. And again, that's that delicate balance of perception's reality. So, let's say, let's say they are wrong,
Mm-hmm.
Let's say they're all wrong. You're totally right. You still have a problem,
It's true.
You still have a problem
Mm-hmm.
and your
solution can't be, well, y'all need to change your attitude.
And so, But, um, but yeah, it was a wake up call. And,
and
I hear from that, by the way, that because you're so systemically focused, that's why that was so effective for you. Because you highly value the team and you highly value people. When the people around you gave you feedback, it was immediately meaningful to you.
Well, the talent, the gift that I attribute to my long career in human resources, and I hope, being effective. Kinda like what you were saying, I, I definitely have a systemic perspective. I see the whole organization, but one of my gifts is I see problems pretty quickly. Especially on the people side of the equation, I'm, I'm pretty intuitive. I read body language really well. I read emotions really well, although my wife would challenge you on that or would challenge me on that, but
Family is always different.
it is, it absolutely is. In the workplace, I've always been able to see problems
Mm-hmm.
And then being able to solve problems is a value. And that's what helped me get my foot in the door and get started in my career. So when I was told I was part of the problem.
Mm-hmm.
I said earlier, the, the minute they said it, I knew it.
Mm-hmm.
I could quickly look back and see the things they were talking about and the things they had done. I mean, I, I, I had one meeting where I got very frustrated and my team felt it.
Mm-hmm.
And it was very
Well, two weeks later, I apologized. I mean, I,
Good for you.
to the group,
Mm-hmm.
but that didn't matter. They were still hurt
Really?
well, because I'm, I'm,
I imagine it mattered some.
it
did. It did.
Yeah,
but,
but not, it didn't fix everything.
yeah.
You just can't erase you j you know, especially,
Yeah.
we said earlier, the higher up in the organization you are, the more power and influence you have. You're human.
Mm-hmm.
and you're gonna
make mistakes, but sometimes it's just a little bit different. And, and,
Mm-hmm.
of the challenge. And, it's not that we haven't been able to overcome it, it just took more than one, I'm
Took a while. Yeah.
But you learn from it. I have probably learned more in the last seven, eight years. Just because, um, a lot bigger organization, a lot different environment and like I said, I spent most of my career in a smaller organization, so it, it took a while to learn.
Right. I wanna, I just wanna pull out something for the listeners, that I see in what you're talking about. For the leaders who might be listening and be like, well, how do I make sure that the feedback I'm getting is accurate? 'cause some leaders will feel overly responsible.
Sometimes you have employees who bring up things that are really more about the employee than the leader. Or sometimes you have leaders who are like, nothing's my fault. And good-hearted. People are often concerned about finding the right balance. Um, it sounds to me like you practice something that I call radical self-honesty,
Hmm.
that you just.
Look at things a little bit dispassionately or with a little bit of perspective. And so when you look at, even though you were frustrated, even though they weren't, achieving what you needed them to do or whatever was happening, you could also take a step back and go, I did do that.
That's true. I did that. And that's true. It had this effect, and so I need to take responsibility.
Yep. Well. I definitely think the more self-aware, you know, I, something I say all the time is a leader has to manage themselves first, and that if you can't manage yourself, you really don't have any business managing anybody else.
Hmm.
And today, one of the, one of the greatest shortcomings I see of leadership is a lack of self-awareness. That they're not paying intimately closely to what they are doing on a regular basis.
Mm.
and that lack of self-awareness can be really, really, really, impactful with their effectiveness. So I think that's a key part of it. You've gotta manage yourself first, and, the alignment of your values that you're using to manage yourself have gotta align with the organization and overall with otherwise good things. But leaders have got to surround themselves somehow, some way with a person or two who can say anything to 'em that they need that's what helped that's what
Mm-hmm.
is when, when someone that I am close to and I trust you know, said, you're outta line.
Mm.
Yeah, those are some of the best, the best lessons I've learned too is when people who, felt that they had the access to me in different times in my personal life and in my career have come to me and been like, you need to dial this in. You're not in the right space here.
Yep.
Always hurt. Didn't feel great, but I'm so glad, to your point, you kind of were saying this earlier on that smart leaders if you don't wanna be overly isolated, you have to cultivate relationships where you permit people to have access to you, the right people
Yeah,
so that you don't end up in a, um, what's the word?
You know, leading in a vacuum basically. Okay. I wanna bring us back to your private ledger. I wanna find out one invisible asset. You maybe didn't know you had at the time. We've already talked about your intuitiveness. Is there something else that was an invisible asset in your ascent to leadership?
The other thing that, I value, highly, and I think it, I, I believe it's helped me is I mentally reverse the pyramid.
I.
um, and sometimes that can be bad out of not being quite respectful enough. But I, I treat everybody the same.
Mm-hmm.
And I can have a conversation with a frontline employee as comfortably as I can have a conversation with the CEO. And more importantly, I try to be the same Mm-hmm.
I've probably worked as hard, if not harder on, trying make anybody that I deal with comfortable when they're with me.
Hmm
especially in human resources, you know, I've
mm-hmm.
for years, the minute an employee's not comfortable coming to human Resources, we are in trouble.
Yeah.
don't need to exist. You know, an applicant that walks into our lobby and they don't get a job when they leave, I want them to want a job here more than when they came in the first time by how they were treated at this company. And so, mm-hmm. Being able to walk through a plant to be able to walk through an area and sincerely look at someone and say, how are you doing?
And they say, you know, can I ask you something? Absolutely.
Yeah.
And so that's been a real asset of mine in the role that we're in, is, an employee walking away and saying, I'm just in this role and, you know, they talk to me and they listened to me and they helped me. That makes me feel important and that's big for us.
Yeah, I know there's people out there in the world who are walking around doing this. It just feels like when you look at the news that it's uncommon. So it's really wonderful to hear a story of somebody who is making deep effort to treat everyone with really true respect.
And in, in my profession, we say unconditional positive regard.
Yeah,
Like looking at every single person like you matter. You are worth my time. How can I help you? That's wonderful.
Yeah.
I can see why you've been in your career for so long and that company's lucky to have you.
Yep.
So one more thing on the private ledger.
Let's talk about one investment that you're making for your wellbeing, your soul. At this point in time,
Wow. There. Well, there's not one thing. 'cause I love self-development and,
you can say more than one. It's okay.
My personal health, is something that I've worked on really hard the last 15 years and, I'm really thankful for that. We've built a wellness program in our company. It started, really started about 20 years ago
Mm-hmm.
To help our folks and you know, one of my employees and I, we were talking about it and we were both looking at each other and we're like, you know, if we don't walk the walk, nobody's gonna buy what we're selling.
Mm-hmm.
so we said at that time that, that we've gotta commit walking the walk. So I, I ran my first half marathon when I was 50 years old.
Wow. Congrats.
well, I vividly remember it. It was not fun.
It doesn't look fun
and, um.
but it's an accomplishment.
Well, it, it is, you know, someone says, do you like, so so you love to go run?
I said, no, I love to finish a run.
Yeah.
I'm very, very happy when I'm done. I feel good about what I've done. I'm not enjoying it getting ready and I'm not enjoying it during the process. But, I'm very proud of what I've done the last 15 years from a health standpoint.
Hmm.
because what I know is that, wouldn't have happened by chance, by that the natural aging process is gonna work against us.
Mm-hmm.
it's also allowed us, it's also brought credibility, to what we're trying to do within the workplace. And, that's something I'm really, really proud of, that's been, it's been life changing. We see unexpected unplanned health events can be devastating, in lots ways
Mm-hmm.
Beyond, the health event, financially,
mm-hmm.
Emotionally. Our daughter had some challenges with sickness when she was going through, uh, middle school. And we saw childhood cancer breakup families.
Yeah.
and so, you know not everything can be avoided, but being stronger so that you can weather those storms is really important.
That's one of the areas I'm most proud of from a developmental standpoint,
Yeah.
especially in the, the last few years. Mm-hmm.
I love that and I, I think every really successful person, I know clients and, uh, yeah, they're, they always are working to carve out time for their health. Because they've usually run into an event where it's been forced upon them and they realize they have to do it. So good to do that before your body makes you.
That's right. That's right.
As we come towards the end of our chat, I'd love to know we're gonna, we're gonna have two more questions. What do you wish more leaders felt permission to say out loud?
I wish leadership would feel more comfortable being a little bit vulnerable. Recognizing that being in charge of the company doesn't mean you have to know everything. what it means is you are protecting the company and you do that in a lot of different ways. And a lot of times it's by putting someone smarter, brighter, more capable you
Hmm.
upfront, out front and just, feeling very, very comfortable saying you know, I don't know. I don't know what we're gonna do, but we're gonna get the right folks together and we're gonna figure this out. And just being a little more intentionally vulnerable.
I think most good leaders, have got a humility to them and they, they don't think they know it all.
And I'm not implying that they do, but I just go back to what I said earlier is about building structure around them, that being in charge of everything is not the goal. The success of the organization is the goal. um, and the other thing is talking more about culture. Talking very intentionally beyond the business of the company. Taking time to talk about
softer
things. We always joke it's funny, you talk to leadership about stuff and they're, oh, it's just one of those HR warm, fuzzy things. Well, I'm not saying it needs to be on the table all the time, but every now and then you need to talk about the warm fuzzy stuff and the people stuff.
And especially in today's climate with, I mean, there can be a lot of pressure and stuff is so much more visible today than it ever has been.
So, uh, it can be sometimes hard to expose yourself and to come across as vulnerable and, but
I
It makes such a difference.
It does.
I
I, and, and the people closest to you will benefit from that the most. That's where the impact is. It's not with some strangers, not with some distant shareholder. That team that's around you every day that you're asking a lot of, they're the ones that'll benefit the most from that.
Mm. Yeah. Everything in your conversation. What I love and I think is a good model for other leaders is there's so much we, here's what we need to do, here's how we can help each other. Yeah. It's just been a really uplifting conversation, so I really appreciate that.
Before we get to the last question, are you open for anybody who might want to connect with you after this interview? Sure. Because Yeah. Okay. So how can people get in touch with you if they just wanted to have a conversation or maybe hear a little bit more of your wisdom?
I would recommend LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn, Lewis, Fordham. As we were chatting earlier, with all the challenges nowadays around security and privacy and stuff, um, other channels are, are a little more difficult to get through nowadays uh, a random name or a phone number. But yeah. Send me in on LinkedIn, more than happy to connect. And again, the way we met is something I'm really enjoying today. And that's networking and, and networking outside the industry and networking outside of my profession. Um, I love it. I love hearing other perspectives and getting other insights.
So more than happy to
I just feel grateful. It's, that's great. Yeah. I'll put your LinkedIn link into the show notes for those who might wanna chat with Louis.
That'd be great.
Uh, for our last question, I'm going to open the time machine and you get to step in and go to any point in your career, what would you like to go to?
Where would you like to go?
Whew.
and say anything to yourself in the past, what would that be?
Wow. I would probably go back to the transition from j and j to, to engineer floors um, tell myself that, you've got 22 years of experience with j and j. That was a different organization. Okay. Take the time, be very intentional be fair to engineer floors and learn them. Learn them before you expect them to learn you. You know, I was 25 years in the world and like I said earlier, probably overconfident. I knew human resources and I was passionate about human resources, but I didn't know the didn't know I
Right.
was working with and I didn't give them some of the benefit doubt they deserved.
Mm.
I'm very proud of what we've accomplished. I'm very proud because like I said, I think learning never stops and I'm thankful that I've learned a lot the last years, but that, that'd be a point that I would, that if I could go back and do it over, that's exactly where I'd go.
And, I would say, let's do this a little bit different. And, and we'd go from there.
That's wonderful. Thank you again for being with us today.
I appreciate, I appreciate the chance to talk. I've enjoyed talking to you and learning more about you as well.
Thank you.
Yep.
📍 Thanks everyone for listening to Lonely At the Top. If today's conversation resonated with you, I hope you'll give yourself permission to pause even just for a moment and check in with what you might be carrying silently.
You don't have to hold it all alone. You've carried so much to get where you are, and you don't have to keep doing it without real support. I work with leaders to clean up their secret messes, and you can learn more about that at RachelAlexandria.com. If you know another leader who needs to hear this, please send it their way, because, yeah, it's lonely at the top, but it doesn't have to stay that way.